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TCinVA
03-21-2016, 03:10 PM
At least according to the USSC:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf

The court basically rejected Mass. attempt to hold that the 2nd amendment was frozen to apply to weapons around in 1789. The concurrence of Alito and Thomas has some incredible quotes:

" While stun guns
were not in existence at the end of the 18th century, the
same is true for the weapons most commonly used today
for self-defense, namely, revolvers and semiautomatic
pistols. Revolvers were virtually unknown until well into
the 19th century,4 and semiautomatic pistols were not
invented until near the end of that century.5 Electronic
stun guns are no more exempt from the Second Amendment’s
protections, simply because they were unknown to
the First Congress, than electronic communications are
exempt from the First Amendment, or electronic imaging
devices are exempt from the Fourth Amendment."

"First, the relative dangerousness of
a weapon is irrelevant when the weapon belongs to a class
of arms commonly used for lawful purposes. See Heller,
supra, at 627 (contrasting “‘dangerous and unusual weapons’”
that may be banned with protected “weapons . . . ‘in
common use at the time’”). Second, even in cases where
dangerousness might be relevant, the Supreme Judicial
Court’s test sweeps far too broadly. Heller defined the
“Arms” covered by the Second Amendment to include “‘any
thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his
hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.’”
554 U. S., at 581. Under the decision below, however,
virtually every covered arm would qualify as “dangerous.”
Were there any doubt on this point, one need only look
at the court’s first example of “dangerous per se” weapons:
“firearms.” 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692. If
Heller tells us anything, it is that firearms cannot be
categorically prohibited just because they are dangerous.
554 U. S., at 636. A fortiori, stun guns that the Commonwealth’s
own witness described as “non-lethal force,” cannot be banned on that basis."

"The lower court’s ill treatment of Heller cannot stand.
The reasoning of the Massachusetts court poses a grave
threat to the fundamental right of self-defense. The Supreme
Judicial Court suggested that Caetano could have
simply gotten a firearm to defend herself. 470 Mass., at
783, 26 N. E. 3d, at 695. But the right to bear other weapons
is “no answer” to a ban on the possession of protected
arms. Heller, 554 U. S., at 629. Moreover, a weapon is an
effective means of self-defense only if one is prepared to
use it, and it is presumptuous to tell Caetano she should
have been ready to shoot the father of her two young
children if she wanted to protect herself. Courts should
not be in the business of demanding that citizens use more
force for self-defense than they are comfortable wielding."

"A State’s most basic responsibility is to keep its people
safe. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts was either
unable or unwilling to do what was necessary to protect
Jaime Caetano, so she was forced to protect herself. To
make matters worse, the Commonwealth chose to deploy
its prosecutorial resources to prosecute and convict her of
a criminal offense for arming herself with a nonlethal
weapon that may well have saved her life. The Supreme
Judicial Court then affirmed her conviction on the flimsiest
of grounds. This Court’s grudging per curiam now
sends the case back to that same court. And the consequences
for Caetano may prove more tragic still, as her
conviction likely bars her from ever bearing arms for selfdefense.
See Pet. for Cert. 14.
If the fundamental right of self-defense does not protect
Caetano, then the safety of all Americans is left to the
mercy of state authorities who may be more concerned
about disarming the people than about keeping them safe."

Gray222
03-21-2016, 03:16 PM
Didnt I start a thread that had this question in it? Hmmmm

Peally
03-21-2016, 03:25 PM
As an aside does anyone else find it funny how the birthplace of the nation and location of the colonies seems to have a completely fucked up and incorrect understanding of people's basic rights in situations like this?

Sterling Archer
03-21-2016, 03:31 PM
Can someone direct me to a back story please?

JohnO
03-21-2016, 03:51 PM
As an aside does anyone else find it funny how the birthplace of the nation and location of the colonies seems to have a completely fucked up and incorrect understanding of people's basic rights in situations like this?

No Kidding! I'm languishing here in CT under deplorable conditions. All I can say is beware. Things used to be much better here. For example I have had my carry permit in CT for over 30 years now. I see it says you are in Wisconsin. I carried there before most WI residents because when your recent adoption of carry permits went into effect it included reciprocity. I was there right after the law went into effect. I would venture to guess most WI residents had not gotten through the permitting process at the time.

Now we have a crap load of bans and registration in effect here in CT. As well we have an enormous segment of the gun owning population who have not complied with the law. No one is targeting them currently but if they cross paths with law enforcement the outcome will not be favorable for those individuals. They can kiss their 2nd Amendment rights goodbye. Moving to a free state won't help either because they will have a firearms related pinch on their record and most likely a felony.

The Sandy Hook school shooting and CT's legislature's knee jerk reaction created major infringements. The democrats have a super majority here and there is little hope of breaking the stranglehold. To top things off our case was filed with the U.S. Supreme Court and Justice Scalia dies two days later. Our attorneys told us the success of our case was based on the makeup of the court holding! The CCDL (Connecticut Citizens Defense League) has spent $1 million in funds raised through donations getting us to this point.

Back to Stun Guns. Those are outlawed in CT. I have seen it said that this recent ruling will be good for the 2nd Amendment. I can see it going the other way. Politicians will decide that you don't need a "real gun" if you can have a stun gun.

Drang
03-21-2016, 03:52 PM
As an aside does anyone else find it funny how the birthplace of the nation and location of the colonies seems to have a completely fucked up and incorrect understanding of people's basic rights in situations like this?

"Birthplace and grave of Liberty."

Kukuforguns
03-21-2016, 04:56 PM
Can someone direct me to a back story please?http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...10078_aplc.pdf (read the concurrence).

For those who won't read the concurrence: Defendant obtained a restraining order against the father of her children. Defendant's friend offered Defendant a stun gun (contact, not really stun, more pain compliance) in case father failed to abide by terms of restraining order. Father confronted Defendant and she successfully backed him off with threat of use of stun gun. Later, she was stopped by police outside a store in connection with a shoplifting incident. She consented a to a search of her purse, and the police found the stun gun but no evidence of shoplifting. The police believed her story regarding abusive father and arrested her. The inferior courts all believed that Defendant obtained the stun gun for self-defense and that she had good cause to believe self-defense might be necessary. She was, nevertheless, convicted of owning a prohibited item. Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld her conviction.

If you read the concurrence, you'll notice that Justice Alito (and J. Thomas because he joined) repeatedly refers to the right to carry/bear a weapon as opposed to the right to keep a weapon. Those two are all-in on public carriage.

Drang
03-21-2016, 06:21 PM
Note also that the opinion is unanimous. (I believe Kagan was absent, but of those present, all concurred.)

TheRoland
03-21-2016, 06:39 PM
Just to clarify the thread title, the SCOTUS didn't find that stun guns were protected. They didn't reach the issue. All they held was that the MA court's "muskets only" reasoning wasn't going to fly.

Smart money says Massachussets SJC will take another wack at this and find the same result with different reasoning.

Josh Runkle
03-21-2016, 06:46 PM
Didnt I start a thread that had this question in it? Hmmmm

Love your input on nearly everything else (sincerely and truly), but, please, please...let that other thread die! Kill it with fire!

Sterling Archer
03-21-2016, 08:43 PM
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...10078_aplc.pdf (read the concurrence).

For those who won't read the concurrence: Defendant obtained a restraining order against the father of her children. Defendant's friend offered Defendant a stun gun (contact, not really stun, more pain compliance) in case father failed to abide by terms of restraining order. Father confronted Defendant and she successfully backed him off with threat of use of stun gun. Later, she was stopped by police outside a store in connection with a shoplifting incident. She consented a to a search of her purse, and the police found the stun gun but no evidence of shoplifting. The police believed her story regarding abusive father and arrested her. The inferior courts all believed that Defendant obtained the stun gun for self-defense and that she had good cause to believe self-defense might be necessary. She was, nevertheless, convicted of owning a prohibited item. Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld her conviction.

If you read the concurrence, you'll notice that Justice Alito (and J. Thomas because he joined) repeatedly refers to the right to carry/bear a weapon as opposed to the right to keep a weapon. Those two are all-in on public carriage.

Thank you!

Sterling Archer
03-21-2016, 08:56 PM
This reasoning defies our decision in Heller, which
rejected as “bordering on the frivolous” the argument “that
only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected
by the Second Amendment.”

Boom, you just got smacked down by the Supreme Court! That's gotta sting!

And the consequences
for Caetano may prove more tragic still, as her
conviction likely bars her from ever bearing arms for selfdefense.

Wasn't expecting to read that in there, wow.

If the fundamental right of self-defense does not protect
Caetano, then the safety of all Americans is left to the
mercy of state authorities who may be more concerned
about disarming the people than about keeping them safe.

Testify!

Wendell
03-21-2016, 09:15 PM
Can someone direct me to a back story please?

Read the decision (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf).

Cite as: 577 U. S. ____ (2016) Per Curiam
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
JAIME CAETANO v.MASSACHUSETTS
ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT OF MASSACHUSETTS
No.14–10078. Decided March 21, 2016 (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf

Sterling Archer
03-21-2016, 09:21 PM
Read the decision (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf).

Cite as: 577 U. S. ____ (2016) Per Curiam
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
JAIME CAETANO v.MASSACHUSETTS
ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT OF MASSACHUSETTS
No.14–10078. Decided March 21, 2016 (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf

Yeah, got it. Thanks. Didn't realize it was in there.

TCinVA
03-21-2016, 09:41 PM
Just to clarify the thread title, the SCOTUS didn't find that stun guns were protected. They didn't reach the issue. All they held was that the MA court's "muskets only" reasoning wasn't going to fly.

Smart money says Massachussets SJC will take another wack at this and find the same result with different reasoning.

Right...they told the lower court to reconsider the case and abide by Heller.

But what basis is left to them to continue the argument? They have an outright ban on the possession of electronic weapons. The legislature could potentially enact legislation that would regulate the ownership or possession of the weapons like a license requirement, but that wouldn't be of any use in this particular case. They can't argue compelling state interest on this because that wouldn't pass muster with Heller any more than the reasoning they expressed in this decision. The MA court themselves said that if the defendant wanted to defend herself, she should have used a gun.

I don't see how they come up with alternate reasoning that is less absurd than what they proposed here. They tried being clever in the interest of preserving their absurd law and the Supremes gave it a big thumbs down. It's difficult to see how they can uphold an outright ban...which is the law they are dealing with in this case...that complies with the dictates of Heller. Heller plainly states that an outright ban is unconstitutional.

There's another lesson in this case, folks.

The defendant in this case was acknowledged even by the police that arrested her as someone who had this weapon for a legitimate defensive purpose. But they still arrested her. And she was still prosecuted and convicted of a felony. And the entire "criminal justice" system in that state was willing to see her rot in a fucking cell rather than give up on their plainly absurd law...to the point that their state Supreme Court was willing to stamp their approval on a clear injustice rather than give any ground on a fucking stupid law.

That's how concerned with "justice" everybody in that chain of events is.

LSP552
03-21-2016, 10:21 PM
TC,

I would NEVER put my faith in the common sense of government officials, including the police, in areas that hate self defense and guns in general. They have too much invested in their beliefs, and care not if an individual gets ground into the dirt to maintain them.

Legal system does not equal justice in the traditional sense.