NY Long gun choice

[newyork]

What would you go for as a go to long gun if you were stuck here in NY? Would you skip the long gun altogether as an alternative?

The rules:

10 rd capacity (if the gun is designed for more, the mags must be 10 rd).
If the mag is detachable and the gun is semi-auto, no other features are allowed. No muzzle device or threads. 16" bbl or 18" for shotgun. No collapsible stock. No pistol grips whatsoever.
If the gun is NOT a semi-automatic, we can have a brake, detachable mag or pistol grips.
If semi-auto, the only feature allowed is a detachable mag.

Rich

[GJM]

Can the long gun be loaded in tube/magazine or do you have to start from empty?

[newyork]

You can have detachable mags and have one in the chamber. Can be a tube mag loaded too. I really like the idea of having a detachable mag though.

[GJM]

Three possibilities:

Benelli M1/2

30-30 Marlin or Winchester

CZ in .223 or 7.62x39 with those nifty five round magazines

I would take any of those, backed up with a NY legal handgun, over just a handgun.

[newyork]

How about the Ruger Gunsight?

That CZ does look really nice.

[okie john]

What would you go for as a go to long gun if you were stuck here in NY? Would you skip the long gun altogether as an alternative?

The rules:

10 rd capacity (if the gun is designed for more, the mags must be 10 rd).
If the mag is detachable and the gun is semi-auto, no other features are allowed. No muzzle device or threads. 16" bbl or 18" for shotgun. No collapsible stock. No pistol grips whatsoever.
If the gun is NOT a semi-automatic, we can have a brake, detachable mag or pistol grips.
If semi-auto, the only feature allowed is a detachable mag.

Rich

What are you doing with it?


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Three possibilities:

Benelli M1/2

30-30 Marlin or Winchester

CZ in .223 or 7.62x39 with those nifty five round magazines

I would take any of those, backed up with a NY legal handgun, over just a handgun.

What he said.

[LOKNLOD]

Long gun for... Home defense? "Shtf" general purposes?

If short ranges are primary situation, a shotgun would be a very versatile choice. Thinking that the right load turns 5 rounds of magazine capacity into 40-45 "rounds" on target.

If the range of a rifle is a requirement, there are several nice detachable magazine "practical" bolt guns on the market these days. Ruger Gunsite Scout, Savage has a similar setup model 11 I think, the aforementioned CZ, Mossberg has a couple MVP models I think as well.

[newyork]

What are you doing with it?


Okie John

Ya know. Good point. I am not a hunter. I just miss having a good long gun around. I used to have AR15s and would take classes and regularly train with them. So I suppose I am just filling a void. The stupid SHTF scenario comes to mind but that's silly. Bump in the night or protection, all nods go to my handguns.

I suppose target and plinking at this point, although my initial thoughts were a fighting gun.

[newyork]

Long gun for... Home defense? "Shtf" general purposes?

If short ranges are primary situation, a shotgun would be a very versatile choice.

If the range of a rifle is a requirement, there are several nice detachable magazine "practical" bolt guns on the market these days.

Not a lot of spaces bigger than 100yds here unless i were in a farm field or beach area. Not likely.

Maybe pistol for everything out to 100, rifle for distance or
Pistol and shotgun for close and I hide otherwise.

[GJM]

Only half kidding -- any chance you can move?

[newyork]

I wish. Not a chance. In the process of building a house on land given to my wife and i. Maybe someday, as we will be able to sell it for a large profit one day.

[gqllc007]

I wish. Not a chance. In the process of building a house on land given to my wife and i. Maybe someday, as we will be able to sell it for a large profit one day.
Hi Rich I am in NY as well. There are lots of choices. You can get the Aeres SCR second generation .223 You can get an AR with a Spur grip and no muzzle break or bayonet lug. You can get the Troy pump AR. You can get a fixed mag AR and have ALL the evil black rifle features. (you top load it). Shotguns you can have a lot. They now allow 7 rounds and not 5 and pistol grip is ok with shotgun. I just bought a Uberti lever action 1873 .38/.357 mag rifle.

[newyork]

Not into the top loading AR at all but I do like the SCR and troy pump.
Thoughts on the Socom 16 with no brake?

[GJM]

A guy can do some pretty amazing stuff with a little CZ bolt and an Aimpoint. Super fast to load and reload. Looks like grandpa's gun.

[Chuck Haggard]

For what you want the gun to do I'd seriously think about a Mossberg 590 with the factory ghost rings

[newyork]

Cz in .223 or 5.56 ?

[GJM]

Cz in .223 or 5.56 ? it used to be .223.

[GJM]

Here is what I am referring to, but in 7.62x39.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547307130


Sent from my iPhone

[newyork]

Yah that's the model I was thinking

[newyork]

For what you want the gun to do I'd seriously think about a Mossberg 590 with the factory ghost rings

I've heard of some reliability issue with them. Not true or an issue since fixed?

[okie john]

What would you go for as a go to long gun if you were stuck here in NY? Would you skip the long gun altogether as an alternative?

The rules:

10 rd capacity (if the gun is designed for more, the mags must be 10 rd).
If the mag is detachable and the gun is semi-auto, no other features are allowed. No muzzle device or threads. 16" bbl or 18" for shotgun. No collapsible stock. No pistol grips whatsoever.
If the gun is NOT a semi-automatic, we can have a brake, detachable mag or pistol grips.
If semi-auto, the only feature allowed is a detachable mag.

Tons of good suggestions thus far. I'll add the following in no particular order:

Ruger 77/357 or 77/44: light, handy, plenty of punch, uses common ammo, easy to mount a scope, easy to use a loop sling, doesn't look threatening, available in stainless, ammo can be used in handguns.
357 or 44 lever gun: light, handy, plenty of punch, uses common ammo, a little harder to scope or use a loop sling, doesn't look threatening, available in stainless, ammo can be used in handguns.
Remington pump or semi: a bit heavier and less handy, more punch than a lever gun (maybe too much), uses common ammo, manual of arms very similar to the 870, tons of aftermarket support, 10-shot mags available, can be found cheap if you don't mind a beater. In New York, this or a Marlin in 35 Remington might be as close to grey man as you can get.
SKS: you may have to cut off a bayonet lug or grenade launcher, but they're cheap and reliable, they fire common ammo, and there's some intelligent aftermarket support.


Barrel quality on the one or two Mossbergs I've seen in person seems a little rough, but Howa makes a sweet little DBM rig (http://legacysports.com/alpine-mountain-rifle) if that strikes your fancy.


Okie John

[newyork]

Okie, do you have a model number for the Remington pump rifle?

[HCM]

It's not a true AR replacement but the current generation mini 14 is not a bad 100-200 carbine. Accuracy is is much easier ( 2x) better than the older guns. They are not as durable as an AR for high around counts but for a centerfire planter and possible home defense gun they are fine. The newer versions are made on new tooling, they also usually have a Thicker, shorter barrel, 16 inch, which helps accuracy, and they are much better for mounting an optic.

If you want a 308 semiauto, I would go with the 18 inch barrel models like the scout version over the SOCCOM. With the 18 inch barrel version you get the original gas system and the original gas block. The modified gas block and gas system on the Cellcom is a known failure point.

The Ruger scout rifle is decent, I much prefer the Newark synthetic stock aversion to the original one in stock. It feels and handles like a whole different gun.

I have a CZ 527 in 762X39. It is a great little gun.

I seem to recall you posting in the 1911 picture thread.Another fun gun/plinker would be the Marlon camp carbine and 45 ACP. The 45 version uses 1911 mags. My dad had a 9 mm version and it ran well.

[okie john]

Okie, do you have a model number for the Remington pump rifle?

760 or 7600. In production since the early 50's.


Okie John

[newyork]

760 or 7600. In production since the early 50's.


Okie John

22" bbl. 4 rds capacity .

[Bigghoss]

Ruger just came out with a new model Mini-14 tactical without a flashhider, 16" barrel without any evil features. Only problem is it ships with 20 round mags for some reason. Shouldn't be a big deal.

http://ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/specSheets/5820.html

[okie john]

22" bbl. 4 rds capacity .

They also made 18.5" carbines. Aftermarket mags get you to 10 rounds. They also made a .223 patrol rifle but I haven't heard much about it.


Okie John

[okie john]

Okie, do you have a model number for the Remington pump rifle?

They also built 740 and 7400 semi-auto rifles and carbines.


Okie John

[pablo]

I've heard of some reliability issue with them. Not true or an issue since fixed?

Maybe not as reliable as an 870, but much easier to fix when they do break.

http://summitgunbroker.com/870-wm-.html

It's not a rifle, but this would be hard to beat for the price.

[newyork]

Maybe not as reliable as an 870, but much easier to fix when they do break.

http://summitgunbroker.com/870-wm-.html

It's not a rifle, but this would be hard to beat for the price.

Sold out :(

[The Apprentice]

How about a M1 garand, or M1 carbine they worked for my grandfather.

[newyork]

How about a M1 garand, or M1 carbine they worked for my grandfather.

Idk...Garand is a log with a bbl in it to me. Huge I mean.

I've had this battle before. I can never find an answer. Nothing thrills me. I suppose I just want a modern rifle. Especially an ar, Scar and ak. But I cant.

I'm starting to think I should suck it up and get a shotgun and call it a day. It's versatile. I won't be in love but it's useful and practical.

[Hambo]

In your shoes I'd go with a .308 Ruger Gunsight or a shotgun. You could always go with a rifled barrel slug gun and get out to 100 yards.

[HCM]

Sold out :(

Wood stock wingmaster is sold out but these are in stock:

http://summitgunbroker.com/870p-ws.html

http://summitgunbroker.com/870-syn.html

Click on the "Riot Guns" tab on the left column

[elsquid]

I'd get an LRB M14 sporter...

http://www.lrbarms.com/standardm14rifles.html

6600

...and an Ares SCR with an appropriate upper. Like...

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1146519

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/7517/wZpX1y.jpg

...but without a muzzle device.

And perhaps a Saiga sporter or Vepr for my x39 fix.

6601

-- Michael

[Tabasco]

For what you want the gun to do I'd seriously think about a Mossberg 590 with the factory ghost rings

Loaded with Federal Truball slugs. Amazingly accurate.

[elsquid]

One more point, in California these are generally termed 'featureless' rifles. A point of difference between CA and NY is that in CA a threaded rifle barrel is not by itself an evil feature. Flash hiders count as a feature, but compensators do not.

Anyways, here's a picture thread from calguns showing CA legal featureless rifles. This may give you ideas.
( it's a long running thread, so you may want to start at the end and work backwards. )

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=253777&page=20

-- Michael

[newyork]

LRB is a fortune and I think only comes in wood.

Can anyone SCR lower be purchased separately? If not I'd have to buy the SCR, and then buy a separate upper.

That Saiga is a great option.

[Duelist]

I'd get a nice shotgun (2 barrels - one for clays and birds, one for deer and HD), and a .357 lever rifle, and call it a day. Maybe put a red dot on the rifle, and a butt cuff for reloads.

[elsquid]

LRB is a fortune and I think only comes in wood.
.

Buy once, cry once. :)

I'm sure that they'd be happy to give you a quote for one with a fiberglass stock.




Can anyone SCR lower be purchased separately? If not I'd have to buy the SCR, and then buy a separate upper.


Yes, for example, the first retailer that comes to mind:

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/ares-defense-rifles





That Saiga is a great option.

One thing to check is to confirm that the Saiga that you are interested in isn't threaded under the FSB/sleeve. In CA it doesn't matter, so I've never had a reason to bother.

-- Michael

[newyork]

That LRB eith wood is $3000. Thats nuts. Id only go there if i had to have a USGI M14.

Do I use an scr bolt that goes with the lower? I don't buy an upper with the bolt correct?

I'm thinking this option or the 12 gauge with 2 bbl and a lever are the best.

[elsquid]

And do I use an scr bolt that goes with the lower? I don't buy an upper with the bolt correct?


I don't own an SCR, so take this with that in mind, but... IIRC they provide the carrier and rat tail, you provide a bolt and possibly a firing pin.

-- Michael

[coldcase1984]

Get an original Ruger .44 Magnum Auto. Five rounds of Fed 180 JHPs would be awfully effective at communicating your displeasure. Or a 16-in. Marlin .45-70 or Model 94 Trapper .30-30. All common NE deer guns...

[gqllc007]

LRB is a fortune and I think only comes in wood.

Can anyone SCR lower be purchased separately? If not I'd have to buy the SCR, and then buy a separate upper.

That Saiga is a great option. you ccan buy the SCR lower directly from them and it is close to $500 plus get the monte carlo stock and the bolt hold open feature like this
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/ares-defense-rifles/SCR-LWR-MC

[gqllc007]

That LRB eith wood is $3000. Thats nuts. Id only go there if i had to have a USGI M14.

Do I use an scr bolt that goes with the lower? I don't buy an upper with the bolt correct?

I'm thinking this option or the 12 gauge with 2 bbl and a lever are the best.
I love my Beretta 1301 Tactical and my lever .357mag uberti. The SCR lower you would need plus their proprietary bolt and carrier

[okie john]

Get an original Ruger .44 Magnum Auto. Five rounds of Fed 180 JHPs would be awfully effective at communicating your displeasure. Or a 16-in. Marlin .45-70 or Model 94 Trapper .30-30. All common NE deer guns...

Good advice. Guys in my hunting camp have slain multiple blacktail bucks with a Winchester 94 Trapper in 44 Magnum. I find 16" lever guns to be a little light up front, so I prefer the 20" guns.


Okie John

[newyork]

I have a while, but this is tough. I have a .44 29-3 if I choose lever. I don't know yet. Lots of directions.

[SteveB]

A guy can do some pretty amazing stuff with a little CZ bolt and an Aimpoint. Super fast to load and reload. Looks like grandpa's gun.

These guns are real accurate and the actions are super strong. I load mine with Hornady 123 grain SST. 3 mags on the rifle give me 15 rounds in a versatile package. I like a rifle for my vehicle gun; more range than a shotgun. Here is my PC Connecticut truck gun:

6608

[newyork]

That is awesome! How are the factory irons?

[Sigfan26]

These guns are real accurate and the actions are super strong. I load mine with Hornady 123 grain SST. 3 mags on the rifle give me 15 rounds in a versatile package. I like a rifle for my vehicle gun; more range than a shotgun. Here is my PC Connecticut truck gun:

6608

Explain to me this wizardry you have done! It must be done to mine!

[El Cid]

How about a M1 garand, or M1 carbine they worked for my grandfather.

This is the path I believe I'd take - M1 Carbine. Get some good soft point or solid copper HP ammo. Research Cirillo's comments on the weapon from when the stake out squad used them.

[SJC3081]

Get a Saiga in 5.56 ,7.62x39 or 7.62x51. Use a ultimak and a Aimpoint.

[SteveB]

Jim Brockman built this rifle. It's a CZ 527 carbine, 7.62X39 with Brockman's iron sights, Talley scout bases, slicked-up action and trigger, recessed sling mounts, light mount and a 3rd mag fits into the buttstock.

[joshs]

Ares SCR. Provides most of the features of the greatest rifle ever created with very few drawbacks in a NY compliant configuration.

[GJM]

Ares SCR. Provides most of the features of the greatest rifle ever created with very few drawbacks in a NY compliant configuration.

Do these run well?

[joshs]

In my limited experience, yes. As long as the lower is used with a good upper.

[Cookie Monster]

To the OP, I would find a quality 30/30 lever gun (probably a Marlin) or a quality semi-auto shotgun and shoot the f out it. Then buy two more of the same for backup. I'd live happily ever after.

[Ed L]

This is the path I believe I'd take - M1 Carbine. Get some good soft point or solid copper HP ammo. Research Cirillo's comments on the weapon from when the stake out squad used them.

The M1 Carbine in NY cannot use 15 round magazines. I am not sure if anyone is making reliable 10 round magazines.
Older magazines, as in 50 years old, may be grandfathered in (I don't remember the details of the SAFE law. However, I would expect that most people would not be willing to ship older magazines into NYS. Then you would have to play with the 50 year old magazines to see which were reliable.

in my experience the M1 Carbines are only reliable with FMJ. But that is another thread entirely. only run reliably with

I would look at the SKS paratrooper. It is an SKS with a 16" barrel as opposed to the 20" barrel. The Paratrooper is just a name, it was never used by paratroopers. You would need to remove the bayonet and the bayonet lug.

[newyork]

Has anyone here owned the CZ and the Ruger GSR? How do they compare?

[Dagga Boy]

Just an observation. Places like NY, California, Chicago, etc...hate you as a firearms owner. In places like this I highly recommend "hunting" guns pressed into a protective role rather than a gun that takes advantage of a bunch of technical idiosyncrasies to make them legal. I avoids issues with uneducated and those not well versed in the small technicalities of the laws. I know.."rights". I get it, and I also know of all sorts of folks winding up in custody with guns that were legal based on technical specifics. Until some expert gets consulted....if ever, you will be very inconvenienced. Bolt action and lever action rifles and pump shotguns are the way to go in these places and why I usually travel these days with a Remington 870 or a Brockman 30/30 lever action.

[EM_]

Just an observation. Places like NY, California, Chicago, etc...hate you as a firearms owner. In places like this I highly recommend "hunting" guns pressed into a protective role rather than a gun that takes advantage of a bunch of technical idiosyncrasies to make them legal. I avoids issues with uneducated and those not well versed in the small technicalities of the laws. I know.."rights". I get it, and I also know of all sorts of folks winding up in custody with guns that were legal based on technical specifics. Until some expert gets consulted....if ever, you will be very inconvenienced. Bolt action and lever action rifles and pump shotguns are the way to go in these places and why I usually travel these days with a Remington 870 or a Brockman 30/30 lever action.

^^^^ This.

Consider the hot water the cop is in for having a design on the dust cover of his AR. One can do solid work with a lever gun, bolt action, or 870. Randy Cain used to do a class (may still) on using a deer rifle in an anti-personnel role.

[newyork]

Very smart advice and exactly whyou asked the question above...because I'm thinking bolt. I get the advantages of detachable mag and 16" bbl while still being a hunting rifle legal everywhere. Although hunting is shotgun and bow only. I seriously doubt that's broadly known though.

[EM_]

That Brockman CZ pictured above looks like a pretty damn cool choice.

I'm partial to shotguns, but I really like that little rifle.

[newyork]

For the price of the CZ and it's ammo, it may be the best choice. I like the versatility of a shotgun but I am really liking the fact that the CZ has detachable mag.
I'll pick up a 12g down the road as well. Used to have a couple.

[Dagga Boy]

Would something like the Troy Pump Action Rifle (http://troydefense.com/pumpactionrifle/) be a viable choice, or is it too evil, black, and AR-like?

It exists only to be used in places where AR's are pretty much illegal. So...it is an evil Ar 15 as far as the naive stupid people who make or vote for those who want AR's banned. In places ruled by the folks who love to throw out lines like "nobody needs an AR-15 to hunt deer", or "We don't want to ban hunting rifles,must military guns". Just because those folks lack the ability to read the 2nd Amendment, doesn't mean they are not voted into power and are making the rules. I just follow those rules, and I have found the same things that kill deer efficiently tend to drop humans like a rock.

[LOKNLOD]

Would something like the Troy Pump Action Rifle (http://troydefense.com/pumpactionrifle/) be a viable choice, or is it too evil, black, and AR-like?

Being that very few, and then probably only enthusiasts, could recognize it was any different than any other "assault rifle", I think it would be of limited saving grace. It's sort of like open carry, it may be legal but it's not the best way to fly under the radar altogether.

[1slow]

The old SMLE Ishapore in .308 that had been chopped to carbine length were tough and cheap.

[Dagga Boy]

The old SMLE Ishapore in .308 that had been chopped to carbine length were tough and cheap.

Never shot it, but have one in the safe. Probably should sell it to someone in a communist state now that I got out.

[SJC3081]

What about a Mini 14 or 30.

[elsquid]

FWIW, the Ares SCR has been explicitly approved as legal in NYC.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/05/22/ares-scr-is-now-new-york-city-approved/

So at the very least, buy one of those. ;)

-- Michael

[Malamute]

If having the magazine loaded on a lever action in a vehicle isn't an issue, that would probably be my inclination. If not, I worked on a beater No4 Enfield as a travel vehicle and Canada gun. It was already chopped. I had it cut to 19", installed a US 1917 front sight, shortened the stock similar to a Krag carbine, moved the band back a bit, thinned the wood, and called it good. It had a detachable 10 rd magazine, loaded with 5 rd strippers, and didn't look scary. 303 ammo was more available then, but still isn't insurmountable. Something similar could be done with the 308 version.

I'm a lever and bolt fan in general, so they don't fluster me much to have one around. They are my first choice for the most part for what I have long guns around for.

[GJM]

I used to own Scoutski before SteveB took custody when I left CT. I used that CZ at Randy Cain's practical rifle course and at a Jeff Cooper reunion at Whitington. You can shoot the crap out of that little thing, and the short action runs circles around even a good model 70.

[gqllc007]

That's too bad, because I think they are neat. :)

There is nothing wrong with the Troy pump. It has all the fun features and you pump it. Also kudos to Troy for building something that we can use here in NY. It would be better to support them than not. There would be zero issues with that rifle

[newyork]

I used to own Scoutski before SteveB took custody when I left CT. I used that CZ at Randy Cain's practical rifle course and at a Jeff Cooper reunion at Whitington. You can shoot the crap out of that little thing, and the short action runs circles around even a good model 70.

Was this before the Brockman ugrades? I'd plan on shooting it stock for a while. I wonder how it stacks against the .308 Ruger.

[newyork]

There is nothing wrong with the Troy pump. It has all the fun features and you pump it. Also kudos to Troy for building something that we can use here in NY. It would be better to support them than not. There would be zero issues with that rifle

Hard to say no to the price and weight too.

[GJM]

Was this before the Brockman ugrades? I'd plan on shooting it stock for a while. I wonder how it stacks against the .308 Ruger.

Jim B originally did that one for me but Steve has plenty of them, too.

The Ruger .308 has more reach out, but in the muzzle to 250 yard envelope, the CZ will run circles around the Ruger. That stock CZ would be very useful, and if you popped a 30mm Aimpoint on, better yet.

[SMD]

I used to own Scoutski before SteveB took custody when I left CT. I used that CZ at Randy Cain's practical rifle course and at a Jeff Cooper reunion at Whitington. You can shoot the crap out of that little thing, and the short action runs circles around even a good model 70.

Can the 527's mags be topped off thru the ejection port? Thanks.

[GJM]

Can the 527's mags be topped off thru the ejection port? Thanks.

I am away at a match and not near one, but my recollection is no. Those little mags are very handy to carry, and you can easily carry extras in a front pant pocket. Way fast to switch mags.

[newyork]

Awesome GJM. Last questions: is there a rail or a place tapped for a rail already in the stock rifle for an aim point out front?
What sling would you suggest for the gun?

The Troy looks really nice. If I'm tracking with Nyeti's philosophy the Troy is a no go but if I screw it, it's legal here, that Troy could be nice swapping back and forth between aim point T1 and a variable.

[nycnoob]

If you are going to get a bolt gun, then be sure to check out the Tikka.
tikka-t3x (http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x)

The Beretta store in Manhattan stocks them if you are upstate then I am sure you could get them at
most big box stores (Gander/BassPro)
I bought mine because so many people on this forum liked them.
They are guaranteed to be 1 MOA with factory ammo and are considered to have the smoothest action around.
They upgraded the models since last year, so its "New and Improved".

[Jim Watson]

I knew one tough old guy who was very pleased with a Remington 141 pump .35.

Lever actions are about as innocuous looking a firearm as you can buy new.
Automatics are Evil Assault Weapons and bolt actions are Sneaky Snipers.

[Ed L]

Consider the hot water the cop is in for having a design on the dust cover of his AR. One can do solid work with a lever gun, bolt action, or 870. Randy Cain used to do a class (may still) on using a deer rifle in an anti-personnel role.

The cop was in hot water for shooting a man who turned out to be unarmed 5 times through his back while he was on his hands and knees. Had the officer used a lever action gun to shoot him he still would have been in trouble.

[newyork]

I knew one tough old guy who was very pleased with a Remington 141 pump .35.

Lever actions are about as innocuous looking a firearm as you can buy new.
Automatics are Evil Assault Weapons and bolt actions are Sneaky Snipers.

I think my reservation with the lever is the reload. It's hard as hell to do in a hurry. Shotguns are much easier and a detachable mag, well you know.

I'm not too familiar with .35 Remington, Ill have to check it out. Ithe isn't going to be an easy find or common around here I'm sure. I'm guessing it's more expensive than common calibers. No?

I don't think I have to go as far as being worried about a bolt like a CZ 527. Then I lose completely. I'll follow the law and be smart but I don't have to kiss their ring and kneel.

[SteveB]

Jim B originally did that one for me but Steve has plenty of them, too.

The Ruger .308 has more reach out, but in the muzzle to 250 yard envelope, the CZ will run circles around the Ruger. That stock CZ would be very useful, and if you popped a 30mm Aimpoint on, better yet.

GJM and I have been on a quest for the ideal short bolt rifle for years; he, his wife and I took identical Brockman scout rifles to Gunsite for 260 (General Purpose Rifle), maybe 15 years ago. Even though this pic shows the rifle with an LPV, the guns were set up with 2.5X scout scopes; Brockman machined stripper clip notches into the receiver bridges, so you loaded 5 .308 rounds at a time while running around various practical rifle courses (the dropped floorplate came later):

6630

This worked pretty well, as long as you didn't bugger up the stripper clip while trying to jam the cartridge stack into the gun too quickly while running the Scrambler! This experience helped convince me that a DBM was the way to go for practical rifle. FN came out with a DBM kit that used high quality 5 and 10-round mags, so I had Brockman build me a .308 short rifle on an FN Special Police action (same as M70), 18" barrel with a bit of pic rail forward for an Aimpoint. This setup was a huge improvement for a course like Randy Cain's practical rifle, where, while you do a lot of shooting, you do a lot of reloading under time pressure.

6631

Having said all that, the CZ carbine is super fast and handy. The CZ micro action is hell for strong, so you can run it hard without worrying about it, and the short throw makes it much faster than any lever gun. I can hit IPSC target heads at 150 very quickly with this rifle, and would have no problem taking a deer with it. It is short, light, versatile and dependable; a perfect PC truck gun. If you're on a budget, the base gun is reasonably priced; you can pop an LPV on it, or use the forward integral scope base for a 30mm ring and Aimpoint. While you can't top up through the ejection port, the 5-round mags are easy to load, and they are small and flat; you can carry a bunch of them.

[newyork]

Fantastic thank you Steve. I didn't realize the CZ had a forward pic rail. That would seal the deal. Are you using the factory Aim point mount? If not, what mount and what height?

Oh I see, you meant that I use the mount just forward of the action, not a forward pic rail. Gotcha.

[Bigghoss]

Well heck. Now I need a 527.

[okie john]

Well heck. Now I need a 527.

Don't feel alone.


Okie John

[Bigghoss]

Don't feel alone.


Okie John

Been thinking about a defensive bolt gun for a while now but mostly I've been looking at .308. I have looked at the 527 some but now I'm sold. Still kinda want a .308 too.

[DocGKR]

I'd listen closely to what Nyeti has written.

Personally in a state with asinine illogical firearms laws and 10 rd mag restriction, I'd go with a Rem 870, .44 Mag or .30-30 lever gun, or M1 rifle. CZ 527 carbine in 7.62X39 or an SMLE would also be reasonable if you want a bolt gun.

[Bigghoss]

I'd listen closely to what Nyeti has written.

... an SMLE would also be reasonable if you want a bolt gun.

I see sporterized "smelly"s for as low as $200, the No. 4's have good sights and XS makes a railed optics mount for them. Could put together a formidable rifle for not a lot of money if you do a little shopping. These were fairly popular hunting rifles for a time so soft point hunting ammo is available for them.

There's also the Spanish FR-8 rifles, mausers with some mods by the Spanish military as a stop-gap until they could get enough CETMEs for everybody. 18" barrels, flash hiders, and less crappy sights rechambered for 7.62 nato. I have an FR7 which is the same thing on a small ring mauser action. There's been some debate over whether or not it can handle the ammo it was re chambered for. ZQI 7.62nato ammo seems to be fine but the Wolf .308 ammo the primers pushed out of the cases.

[newyork]

I have heard when mounting a scope over the action (LPV), the bolt knob hits the scope on the CZ. Is this only with certain scopes or ring heights? What ring height and scope diameter would prevent this?

[Malamute]

There's also the Spanish FR-8 rifles,...

I'm eventually going to make up a general purpose rifle on a Ruger 77 tang safety gun. Barrel cut to 20", iron sights for backup, low power variable scope, chambered in 243 or other mid power range load that's easy to find (260 is possible, but not as easy to find). Should do most of what Id want from a general purpose rifle without specifically planning on hunting large stuff or keeping bears off my tail.

[newyork]

Where would you send that off to get cut and/or other work done?

[Malamute]

Where would you send that off to get cut and/or other work done?

I know a guy locally to me that can do it if I ask nicely and he isnt swamped. I don't know of other shops, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too tough, its basic stuff. Ive used and been happy with the Williams Shorty ramps used with Sourdough front blades, and either a receiver sight or a barrel sight on a base. Some older Rugers came with iron sights, so just shortening and replacing the front ramp is all that would require. I understand their factory front ramps are a real bugger to get off.

I'm kicking around the idea of using a chopped off AR front sight milled down to set on a bolt action barrel at the correct height. It will require a bit of creative shortening of the parts inside to get the elevation adjustment to still function some, but doesn't seem too far fetched so far in looking at it.

The discontinued Ruger Compact Magnum in 308 is about perfect as far as overall size, decent weight and looks, and has irons. That's sort of the size effect I'm going for. I think they are very good looking rifles, well balanced in looks, and a good overall size without being too short and muzzle blasty.

Heres what they look like.

http://www.impactguns.com/ruger-m77-compact-magnum-308-win-20in-satin-blue-finish-37101-736676371013.aspx

The Ruger RSI rifles are another compact possibility, though they've become somewhat collectible. 18" barrels and full length wood, and were made in a variety of chamberings.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ruger+77+rsi&biw=1093&bih=538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwil6uOBldLLAhXBQCYKHXRKCNUQsAQIGw

I think I could get used to either one.

[DamonL]

GJM and I have been on a quest for the ideal short bolt rifle for years; he, his wife and I took identical Brockman scout rifles to Gunsite for 260 (General Purpose Rifle), maybe 15 years ago. Even though this pic shows the rifle with an LPV, the guns were set up with 2.5X scout scopes; Brockman machined stripper clip notches into the receiver bridges, so you loaded 5 .308 rounds at a time while running around various practical rifle courses (the dropped floorplate came later):

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This worked pretty well, as long as you didn't bugger up the stripper clip while trying to jam the cartridge stack into the gun too quickly while running the Scrambler! This experience helped convince me that a DBM was the way to go for practical rifle. FN came out with a DBM kit that used high quality 5 and 10-round mags, so I had Brockman build me a .308 short rifle on an FN Special Police action (same as M70), 18" barrel with a bit of pic rail forward for an Aimpoint. This setup was a huge improvement for a course like Randy Cain's practical rifle, where, while you do a lot of shooting, you do a lot of reloading under time pressure.

6631

Having said all that, the CZ carbine is super fast and handy. The CZ micro action is hell for strong, so you can run it hard without worrying about it, and the short throw makes it much faster than any lever gun. I can hit IPSC target heads at 150 very quickly with this rifle, and would have no problem taking a deer with it. It is short, light, versatile and dependable; a perfect PC truck gun. If you're on a budget, the base gun is reasonably priced; you can pop an LPV on it, or use the forward integral scope base for a 30mm ring and Aimpoint. While you can't top up through the ejection port, the 5-round mags are easy to load, and they are small and flat; you can carry a bunch of them.

The FN compact looks like the one for me. That FNH DBM kit is $400, but includes two magazines. It looks pretty good, though. What twist rate are you using on an 18" barrel?

[GJM]

For ever, the .308 has been the quintessential practical rifle cartridge. That said, for the carbine niche described here, I feel like .308 ends up being a bit much cartridge, in that it forces a heavier, or if lightweight, a harder recoiling long gun. I feel like .223, .243, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK or maybe .260 at the heavy end, can make up handier carbines.

[LittleLebowski]

For ever, the .308 has been the quintessential practical rifle cartridge. That said, for the carbine niche described here, I feel like .308 ends up being a bit much cartridge, in that it forces a heavier, or if lightweight, a harder recoiling long gun. I feel like .223, .243, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK or maybe .260 at the heavy end, can make up handier carbines.

One of our SMEs talked me into a 6.5G. Near .308 power in AR15 package, do want.

[GJM]

One of our SMEs talked me into a 6.5G. Near .308 power in AR15 package, do want.

LL, Jim Brockman rebarreled a little CZ bolt in 7.62x39 for SteveB and me, and they are a very compact, accurate, shootable package for 6.5.

[SteveB]

The FN compact looks like the one for me. That FNH DBM kit is $400, but includes two magazines. It looks pretty good, though. What twist rate are you using on an 18" barrel?

1:11

[LittleLebowski]

LL, Jim Brockman rebarreled a little CZ bolt in 7.62x39 for SteveB and me, and they are a very compact, accurate, shootable package for 6.5.

That does sound good, barrel length?

[newyork]

I'm having a really hard time not going out and buying the CZ right now. Have to wait to save a little longer but damn! Never thought I would be at this place but, I'm really liking the idea of collecting a handful of lightweight, practical bolt guns in a couple calibers now.

[Hizzie]

Only funny thing on the little CZ is the backwards safety. Works opposite of big brother 550.

[newyork]

I have very little bolt gun experience so for me, thats all good. It may confuse down the road when I buy another bolt though.

[Hizzie]

I have very little bolt gun experience so for me, thats all good. It may confuse down the road when I buy another bolt though.

At some point you'll "need" a proper dangerous game rifle in 375 or bigger.

[newyork]

For no other reason but "just cuz". That day will come. LOL.

[SMD]

For ever, the .308 has been the quintessential practical rifle cartridge. That said, for the carbine niche described here, I feel like .308 ends up being a bit much cartridge, in that it forces a heavier, or if lightweight, a harder recoiling long gun. I feel like .223, .243, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK or maybe .260 at the heavy end, can make up handier carbines.

Great post. Modern bullets have allowed the cartridges you list to punch above their weight, moving them into the margins of the general purpose realm.

If faced with the OP's concerns (and since I live in a rapidly left-leaning Washington state, this may be more than a thought exercise in the near future) I would likely go with the Marlin 336 I already own. Not ideal for anything - hunting or defense - but good enough at both. Locally, the 30-30 supply withstood multiple panics. And while I concede the numerous advantages of a DBM, I also see benefits in the lever gun's tube magazine: it's always attached to the gun and it can be topped off shotgun-style.

[newyork]

Great post. Modern bullets have allowed the cartridges you list to punch above their weight, moving them into the margins of the general purpose realm.

If faced with the OP's concerns (and since I live in a rapidly left-leaning Washington state, this may be more than a thought exercise in the near future) I would likely go with the Marlin 336 I already own. Not ideal for anything - hunting or defense - but good enough at both. Locally, the 30-30 supply withstood multiple panics. And while I concede the numerous advantages of a DBM, I also see benefits in the lever gun's tube magazine: it's always attached to the gun and it can be topped off shotgun-style.

In my limited experience, it was very hard (and painful) to try topping off a 30-30 lever, much harder than a shotgun. Is this not usually the case? It was something that made me think it would take way too long in a situation where a quick reload was needed, and under pressure especially hard.

[SMD]

In my limited experience, it was very hard (and painful) to try topping off a 30-30 lever, much harder than a shotgun. Is this not usually the case? It was something that made me think it would take way too long in a situation where a quick reload was needed, and under pressure especially hard.

Definitely not as easy as a shotgun. A 30-30 shell grants a much smaller purchase for starters. But I still don't find it that hard to load my Marlin quickly. A popular modification is to break any sharp edges around the loading port and to remove a bit of tension from the loading gate.

Sam Fadala devoted an entire book to the 30-30 and details a method where he pushes the first shell in only halfway using the subsequent cartridge to ram the first one home and so on until full. It does save your thumb but against the clock, I am more likely to botch a reload using his method.

[GJM]

I find a 30-30 easier to reload than a .44 lever, as the 30-30 cartridges are tapered, making them easier to insert.

Of course a CZ bolt is far easier to reload than either, with those slick five round mags.

[newyork]

One big reason why Ill be getting the CZ instead.

[Josh Runkle]

Didn't read the whole thread: I'd get a shotgun or a lever action rifle.

[SMD]

Mighty tough to argue against the micro-CZs.

[Malamute]

Posts 11, 112 and 113 all make good points.

There is a relatively simple modification to Winchesters, and likely to Marlins, that helps make them much easier to load when theres already some in the magazine. Somehow the slowly slipping QC and hand fitting of the guns has spawned the idea that its "normal" to not be able to top off easily, but older or well worn guns show this not to be the case. A little de-burr and polishing on the back of the loading gate helps very much. I posted pics of it in the past. Will link or add them again if anyone is interested.

The trick of not inserting each round into the gate works OK, but in a well slicked up or older gun, its no problem at all the push each in and follow it with more as needed.

I agree that the rifle cartridges are easier to handle and load than the pistol rounds. I'm leaning more to 150 or 130 gr 30-30 loads. Higher velocity, quicker expansion, perhaps slightly lower chance of overpenetration, though that may not be as much of a thing when comparing all rifle loads on smaller game like deer or as a defensive item. All are probably going through. A friend told me hes used the 130 gr Speers on deer and antelope and hasn't recovered a bullet yet. The 110 gr hollowpoints may also have good utility. Less recoil is also an attractive feature. I think the 130s can be run around 2600-2700 fps with the right powders.

Also agree with GJMs earlier comment about not really needing 308 level of cartridge for most lower 48 uses other than tooling around in bear country. This is a large departure in my thinking, but changes in physical abilities help one come to new ways of looking at things. 243/250 Savage/257 Roberts/260 seems like a nice balance point with decent range. The little CZ carbine is also a good size/caliber for most of what one may find themselves involved in. With a bolt gun, stepping up the power above 5.56 doesn't have much down side other than cheap ammo for practice (7.62x39 takes care of that). Id enjoy a 223/5.56 small bolt gun, but a mid-20's cal bolt would do all it would and more.

[newyork]

Thank you for all that input. Very cool. Lots of great info in this thread.

Just took a peek at the Ruger Guide Gun. Looks really solid and has fixed sights but is 8lbs and in 30-06 and up with no detachable magazine. Not for this time around but looks really good with solid iron sights on it.

[SMD]

I'm leaning more to 150 or 130 gr 30-30 loads.

Have you tried Federal's 125 JHP (Fed part #3030C)? I haven't put it over my chronograph but the factory claims 2570 fps. It's nicely accurate and in some informal testing using mock sections of residential walls and water jugs, it looks like it wants to fragment rather quickly - a plus in my residential neighborhood.

[SteveB]

That does sound good, barrel length?

20" on the 6.5G:

6677

[TGS]

My vote is for a shortened Browning Auto-5.

[Malamute]

Have you tried Federal's 125 JHP (Fed part #3030C)? I haven't put it over my chronograph but the factory claims 2570 fps. It's nicely accurate and in some informal testing using mock sections of residential walls and water jugs, it looks like it wants to fragment rather quickly - a plus in my residential neighborhood.

Sounds like a useful load, thanks for the heads up. I knew somebody was loading a lighter bullet but didn't recall who.

I rarely shoot factory ammo in my 30-30's, though I do like knowing certain ammo is available.

[TR675]

My vote is for a shortened Browning Auto-5.

Especially if you are concerned with maximum style points of course. As you should be.

[HCM]

Especially if you are concerned with maximum style points of course. As you should be.

6678

[Bigghoss]

There's a guy on YT who does some neat gun projects and he's working on a "whippet" gun based on Clyde Barrow's Auto 5 gun. He hasn't updated that project in a while though. I see the remington clones for not much money. Not sure how "PC" something like that would be though. I really think a wood-stocked lever or bolt gun would be the best option if you're concerned about the legal aftermath of a defensive encounter.

[SteveB]

I really think a wood-stocked lever or bolt gun would be the best option if you're concerned about the legal aftermath of a defensive encounter.

This has long been my approach to living armed in a PC state: Keep a low profile. Maybe the bolt rifle in my truck isn't as good a fighting rifle as an AR, but I've spent a lot of time training with it in that role. In a perfect world, like when I finally move full time to a free state, my 6.5 Grendel AR would be my choice for a general purpose rifle. Until then, I'm comfortable with the little CZ.

[okie john]

I'd listen closely to what Nyeti has written.

Personally in a state with asinine illogical firearms laws and 10 rd mag restriction, I'd go with a Rem 870, .44 Mag or .30-30 lever gun, or M1 rifle. CZ 527 carbine in 7.62X39 or an SMLE would also be reasonable if you want a bolt gun.

Speaking of the 870, I know that the current ones are suspect. How far back do the problems go? Is there a vintage that's widely considered solid?

Thanks,


Okie John

[GJM]

Speaking of the 870, I know that the current ones are suspect. How far back do the problems go? Is there a vintage that's widely considered solid?

Thanks,


Okie John

Hans Vang used to recommend the 870P, as the police model had enhancements over the regular 870. Not sure what the status of P models is these days. You can't go wrong with an older Wingmaster to build on, as long as 2.75 isn't a problem for you. They have smooth actions.

[Lost River]

A short barreled Belgian Browning A5 is rarely a bad choice.

This one stands guard at our house.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/BrowningAuto5_zps3c15f0af.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/BrowningAuto5_zps3c15f0af.jpg.html)

[GJM]

I recently handled a Ruger American Ranch bolt action. It was compact, had a decent action, and a good trigger. Comes in 5.56 and .300 BLK. Threaded. Inexpensive. Worth a look.

[okie john]

Hans Vang used to recommend the 870P, as the police model had enhancements over the regular 870. Not sure what the status of P models is these days. You can't go wrong with an older Wingmaster to build on, as long as 2.75 isn't a problem for you. They have smooth actions.

Perfect. Thanks.


Okie John

[HCM]

Hans Vang used to recommend the 870P, as the police model had enhancements over the regular 870. Not sure what the status of P models is these days. You can't go wrong with an older Wingmaster to build on, as long as 2.75 isn't a problem for you. They have smooth actions.

The only issue with the old wingmasters is for serious use you should get them converted / upgraded to the Flex tab system for clearing malfunctions.

[PNWTO]

I recently handled a Ruger American Ranch bolt action. It was compact, had a decent action, and a good trigger. Comes in 5.56 and .300 BLK. Threaded. Inexpensive. Worth a look.

I'm really tempted to get one of these in .300 w/ a 1-6x for a GP/"Hillary" rifle.

[SecondsCount]

I recently handled a Ruger American Ranch bolt action. It was compact, had a decent action, and a good trigger. Comes in 5.56 and .300 BLK. Threaded. Inexpensive. Worth a look.

I had one in 5.56 and sold it. Nice smooth action, trigger wasn't bad, but I hated the stock and could not get it to shoot anywhere close to my BCM AR.

[Malamute]

If having the magazine loaded on a lever action in a vehicle isn't an issue, that would probably be my inclination. If not, I worked on a beater No4 Enfield as a travel vehicle and Canada gun. It was already chopped. I had it cut to 19", installed a US 1917 front sight, shortened the stock similar to a Krag carbine, moved the band back a bit, thinned the wood, and called it good. It had a detachable 10 rd magazine, loaded with 5 rd strippers, and didn't look scary. 303 ammo was more available then, but still isn't insurmountable. Something similar could be done with the 308 version.

I'm a lever and bolt fan in general, so they don't fluster me much to have one around. They are my first choice for the most part for what I have long guns around for.

The modified No4 Enfield.

6698

6699

[Bigghoss]

Alright, now the hunt is on for a spoerterized No. 4 SMLE. I know where there's a clone of a jungle carbine for $200...

[newyork]

Man, before I lose my focus and want all of these rifles, I need to hit up the store soon...and sell a couple things.

[Bigghoss]

Man, before I lose my focus and want all of these rifles, I need to hit up the store soon...and sell a couple things.

Yeah. By the time I'm done I'll probably have more money tied up in "PC" rifles than AR's and AK's. I just really really love guns. My gun wish list just says "all of them".

[GJM]

I had one in 5.56 and sold it. Nice smooth action, trigger wasn't bad, but I hated the stock and could not get it to shoot anywhere close to my BCM AR.

What didn't you like about the stock and what kind of groups were you getting? Ruger advertises them as MOA accurate.

[Lex Luthier]

The modified No4 Enfield.

6698

6699

The P-14 front sight is a fine idea and keeps it looking military. How does the sight height work with the rear No4 sight?
Nice that you kept the upper handguard, too. This is probably the most "right" looking sporterization I have seen.

I am reminded of this quote from George Macdonald Fraser's McAuslan stories:

"What the wild men of the world will do when the last Lee Enfield wears out, I can't imagine; clumsy and old-fashioned it may be, but it will go on shooting straight when all the repeaters are rusty and forgotten."

[Malamute]

The P-14 front sight is a fine idea and keeps it looking military. How does the sight height work with the rear No4 sight?
Nice that you kept the upper handguard, too. This is probably the most "right" looking sporterization I have seen.

I am reminded of this quote from George Macdonald Fraser's McAuslan stories:

"What the wild men of the world will do when the last Lee Enfield wears out, I can't imagine; clumsy and old-fashioned it may be, but it will go on shooting straight when all the repeaters are rusty and forgotten."

I don't recall the exact details, it was a few years ago when I was doing that project. I measured the existing front sight height and the m1917 was very close. It rough zeroed OK with Greek ammo. I don't recall dong fine zeroing, but I believe the extra blades available would get you usably close, or filing the existing one. I can ask the guy I traded it to how the fine zeroing went.

Thanks, I was very happy with how it turned out overall. I believe I moved the band back right at 2 inches, and shaped the stocks somewhat similar to one of the Krag carbine versions. I want to eventually do a 1903 somewhat similarly, only with a 22" barrel. It will have a Lyman receiver sight, and likely a Williams shorty ramp in front, which is somewhat similar in looks to a Krag front sight base, use a sourdough front blade, and 03-A3 upper handguard wood. I will likely move the band back a bit on that also to balance out the looks. I have a 22" 25-06 barrel for a 1903, it would be nice in that role, but may be better used in a scoped application. A gimpy shoulder has been making the lighter recoiling rounds look much better of late. Perhaps I just need more 25-06 barrels,....

[SecondsCount]

Alright, now the hunt is on for a spoerterized No. 4 SMLE. I know where there's a clone of a jungle carbine for $200...

I picked one of those up a few years ago and have had some fun with it. Never tried to see how accurate it was but picked up some 308 Tula and was banging steel silhouettes at 100 and 200 yards off the shoulder. Fun little gun.

[SteveB]

This looks like an affordable choice with a lot going for it:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/rugerr-americanr-predator-308-od-threaded-barrel.html

[SteveB]

This looks like an affordable choice with a lot going for it:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/rugerr-americanr-predator-308-od-threaded-barrel.html

[DamonL]

It looks interesting. So low end, the Ruger looks good. A step up would be the CZ 527. And for me, maybe the FN PBR with DBM.

[rauchman]

Regarding the Lee Enfield, does surplus ammo still exist? If not, can ammo be had from new manufacture?

Still kick myself in the ass for not buying one (or more) surplus rifles when they were dirt cheap.

[rjohnson4405]

K31 Carbine...straight pull is pretty quick

Reasonably priced and can get a rail that fits where the rear sight is and throw on a red dot. If the Primary Arms red dot is what it seems. Can probably build two rifles like this for ~$1000.

[okie john]

Regarding the Lee Enfield, does surplus ammo still exist? If not, can ammo be had from new manufacture?

Still kick myself in the ass for not buying one (or more) surplus rifles when they were dirt cheap.

There is some milsurp 303 out there but a fair amount of it is HIGHLY corrosive. Not a total deal-breaker, but good to know. I saw a lot of otherwise very nice Enfields come in when I was in the gun business with bores that looked like sewer pipes because folks didn't understand how to clean up afterwards.


Okie John

[Lex Luthier]

Regarding the Lee Enfield, does surplus ammo still exist? If not, can ammo be had from new manufacture?

Still kick myself in the ass for not buying one (or more) surplus rifles when they were dirt cheap.

Surplus almost always equals corrosive. I had a few pierced primers with some of the older stuff. Shooting glasses are a good thing!
Hot, soapy water is your friend, and don't leave the rifle dirty overnight, nor outside on the porch where it can condense dew.

Somewhere around here I have 2-3 boxes of Canadian Ranger issued .303 rounds from the late 80s -early 1990s. It's Mk 7 spec pressure, and has (IIRC) 154 grain Sierra Boat-tail SP bullets, loaded in reloaded fireformed 1943 Long Branch brass. I think the powder type and charge is listed as well.
The stuff is the finest shooting .303 I have ever come across- even better than green box Remington or Lapua.
I'll try and find it so as to post the recipe.

[newyork]

I'm liking this Surplus gun idea, but it's another door to open and my brain is on overload lol

[SMD]

Just handled a shooter-grade No 4 Mk I Fazakerley in a shop the other day. They balance really well for me. I have to remind myself how short 303 brass life can be in the SMLEs because I'm running out of reasons not to buy it...

[SLG]

For a self defense in NY, get a shotgun. Period.

For fun or whatever, get any and all rifles you like. Stay away from the shorty 308 SMLE's though regardless.

[Malamute]

Regarding the Lee Enfield, does surplus ammo still exist? If not, can ammo be had from new manufacture?

Still kick myself in the ass for not buying one (or more) surplus rifles when they were dirt cheap.

The surplus ammo has dried up as far as I can tell. There was a fair bit of reasonably priced Greek boxer primed stuff around 10 years ago, but its rare to see it now. It was good, clean shooting ammo. Commercial and import sporting ammo is around.



Just handled a shooter-grade No 4 Mk I Fazakerley in a shop the other day. They balance really well for me. I have to remind myself how short 303 brass life can be in the SMLEs because I'm running out of reasons not to buy it...

A gunsmith I knew said he set the barrel back a thread and rechambered a couple 303's to commercial chamber specs and accuracy and brass life went up considerably. I think most 303 shooters mainly neck size and get fair brass life. The military chambers are pretty sloppy loose in general. Headspace was controlled by different bolt heads. The earlier guns, the No 1 Mk III, or SMLE's, used fitting of various bolt heads until a good fit was achieved. I think they stoned some oversize to fit at times. The later guns, the No 4 Enfields, used numbered bolt heads for headspace adjustment. The larger number bolt heads aren't easy to find any more. If one wanted the best options, it would be get a 0 bolt head and have the barrel set back and rechambered, and have the No 1 and 2 bolt heads in your future if you shot it enough to wear it.

[luckyman]

For a self defense in NY, get a shotgun. Period.

For fun or whatever, get any and all rifles you like. Stay away from the shorty 308 SMLE's though regardless.

I think this might be the first time PF actually saved me money.

[nycnoob]

For a self defense in NY, get a shotgun. Period.


OK, now the question is Remington 870 or Beretta 1301?

[Xrslug]

I've considered the same question (870 vs M2 or 1301, etc.) and kept coming back to familiarity. I have put many thousands of rounds through an 870 and can pick one up in the dark and feel totally comfortable operating it. I have very little time in on any semi-auto shotguns and given my time constraints, I'm not going to be putting a ton of time into becoming that comfortable with a new platform. So keep that in mind -- if you are starting from scratch with both platforms, then it may be a wash, but if you already have lots of time in on one and your training time is limited, be realistic about how far the advantages of a particular platform will carry you vs one that may be older tech but you can operate proficiently. Sounds simple, but I always need to talk myself down from the latest and greatest!

[newyork]

Good points. I might have slightly more time behind pump shotguns. Not enough that I'd say it's 2nd nature though. The closest comparison I have for semi is the ar15. Good amount of time (multiple classes and years of range sessions) there but it's been quite some time since I've played with one.

[rauchman]

Is an SKS an option?

[newyork]

Yes they are allowed here.

[Bigghoss]

Regarding the Lee Enfield, does surplus ammo still exist? If not, can ammo be had from new manufacture?

Still kick myself in the ass for not buying one (or more) surplus rifles when they were dirt cheap.

Plenty of new production .303 on the market, both less expensive range stuff and SP hunting rounds.

[Lost River]

Just an observation. Places like NY, California, Chicago, etc...hate you as a firearms owner. In places like this I highly recommend "hunting" guns pressed into a protective role rather than a gun that takes advantage of a bunch of technical idiosyncrasies to make them legal. I avoids issues with uneducated and those not well versed in the small technicalities of the laws. I know.."rights". I get it, and I also know of all sorts of folks winding up in custody with guns that were legal based on technical specifics. Until some expert gets consulted....if ever, you will be very inconvenienced. Bolt action and lever action rifles and pump shotguns are the way to go in these places and why I usually travel these days with a Remington 870 or a Brockman 30/30 lever action.



While a short barreled Browning Auto-5 with extended tube gets my "practical" vote, this little 16" Marlin would do in a pinch.

.44 Marlin

With a fixed 2.5X it is very easy to shoot with both eyes open, like a red dot. The little carbine feels very natural when you shoulder it, and if you look at the target, and bring the rifle up to you, it is a pretty quick little setup.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/IMG_0691_zpsaxjwwppd.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/IMG_0691_zpsaxjwwppd.jpg.html)

[GJM]

Jeff Cooper referred to the short .44 lever gun as the "Brooklyn Special."

[SLG]

OK, now the question is Remington 870 or Beretta 1301?

The 1301 is not currently a duty grade shotgun, so there is no real choice there.

[JDM]

OK, now the question is Remington 870 or Beretta 1301?

Benelli M2.

[newyork]

Was just looking at a .44 Big Boy Marlin on Aim Surplus with 16"

[GJM]

870 if you have years of experience running a pump, and are willing to give up ease of one hand shooting. The Benelli 1/2 if you are NOT planning to hang a bunch of crap on it. The 870 will likely suffer more operator induced stoppages, where the semi-auto will suffer more gun induced stoppages.

[Malamute]

Was just looking at a .44 Big Boy Marlin on Aim Surplus with 16"

You may be mixing your metaphors, Big Boy is a Henry name.

[newyork]

You may be mixing your metaphors, Big Boy is a Henry name.

Correct. I meant Henry. But I see its not side loading and heavy.

[SLG]

Correct. I meant Henry. But I see its not side loading and heavy.

I like the Henry's a lot. Marlin's too. Both are way harder to manipulate at speed than a shotgun, but they do kick less and often carry more rds. The ballistics to not approach a 12 or 20g in anyway at all. Needs vs. wants makes it an easy choice.

[newyork]

How about the Browning BLR TD?

[HCM]

How about the Browning BLR TD?

This one ?

http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/blr-black-label-takedown-16-inch-barrel.html

It's interesting but I think I'd rather have a Ruger GSR synthetic.

For defense, a Benelli M2 would be had to beat, especially with a Mini RDS.

[newyork]

Pretty expensive

[LtDave]

I think my reservation with the lever is the reload. It's hard as hell to do in a hurry. Shotguns are much easier and a detachable mag, well you know.

I'm not too familiar with .35 Remington, Ill have to check it out. Ithe isn't going to be an easy find or common around here I'm sure. I'm guessing it's more expensive than common calibers. No?

I don't think I have to go as far as being worried about a bolt like a CZ 527. Then I lose completely. I'll follow the law and be smart but I don't have to kiss their ring and kneel.

Re 35 rem ammo. It has been very hard to find for a while now. About the only stuff readily available has been the Hornady FTX. Remington must have run some Corelokt stuff a few months ago. I was able to snag several boxes, but it has dried up again. Components are also thin on the ground, especially brass. Sierra and Hornady bullets are available, but no Corelokts.

[Bigghoss]

Correct. I meant Henry. But I see its not side loading and heavy.

Don't expect a side loading gate from Henry until their current president steps down. I contacted them and he was pretty adamant (and unprofessional) about that.

[okie john]

After reading the Lever Guns thread, especially Post 114 in which Nyeti touts the Marlin Youth 336, I had to get my hands on one. That happened today. I normally don't like 16" lever guns because I feel like they're too light in the muzzle, but this one seemed to balance a lot like a 20" gun. Also, the stock is shorter, but I think it would still work for me when I wear heavier clothing. Plenty of folks run short stocks on shotguns, so the same thinking might carry over.

Also, my LGS had them new for $409, which isn't helping.


Okie John

[CS Tactical]

We can get these as well :cool:


you ccan buy the SCR lower directly from them and it is close to $500 plus get the monte carlo stock and the bolt hold open feature like this
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/ares-defense-rifles/SCR-LWR-MC

[HCM]

Re 35 rem ammo. It has been very hard to find for a while now. About the only stuff readily available has been the Hornady FTX. Remington must have run some Corelokt stuff a few months ago. I was able to snag several boxes, but it has dried up again. Components are also thin on the ground, especially brass. Sierra and Hornady bullets are available, but no Corelokts.

35 Remington is primarily a regional round, popular in the Northeast, NY, PA ME, NH etc. Like 30-40 Krag, the ammo companies make a few runs a year so you need to grab it while it's available. It's popularity has lasted in the NE because shots on deer tend to be short and it's seen as a better "brush buster" than 30-30.

[JAD]

K31 Carbine...straight pull is pretty quick.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160330/ce8db57ca3c538ce7cdcaef33528864f.jpg

[JAD]

Jeff Cooper referred to the short .44 lever gun as the "Brooklyn Special."

No, that was a 30-30. The 44 is a Kansas City special. [emoji41]

http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/jeff3_13.html

http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/jeff5_3.html

[BillSWPA]

Since I still have family in NJ, I have thought about a long gun for car trips there. My requirements:

1) Ability to deal with 2 legged as well as 4 legged predators since one relative lives right next to a wildlife preserve where problem black bears from other parts of the state are brought (that was not the case when they moved there).

2) Ability to keep the gun unloaded in my trunk with a loaded magazine (in a sufficiently separate location so that the gun is legally unloaded) so that the gun can be quickly loaded if needed. This rules out anything with a tubular magazine.

3) As high a magazine capacity as I can get within NJ limits.

4) Ability to see the sights under a wide variety of conditions.

5) Ability to mount a light.

I inherited a sporterized Australian ShtLE (essentially the same as an SMLE) with a stock with a missing buttplate. A synthetic stock can be obtained for this rifle, as well as a device for mounting a scope above the ejection port. A low powered variable scope with an illuminated retical and good light gatherinc could be added. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and additional 10 round new manufacture magazines are obtainable. a Picatinny rail could be bolted onto the stock for mounting a light. Shortening the barrel would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. The result would be a modernized version of a battle-proven rifle.

Another possible choice would be a Remington pump action rifle. Since hunting with a semiauto is not allowed in PA (strange since PA is otherwise very gun friendly), I understand that Remington sells more of these here than everywhere else combined. I have seen 10 round magazines available but cannot comment on reliability.

[Malamute]

Since I still have family in NJ, I have thought about a long gun for car trips there. My requirements:

1) Ability to deal with 2 legged as well as 4 legged predators since one relative lives right next to a wildlife preserve where problem black bears from other parts of the state are brought (that was not the case when they moved there).

2) Ability to keep the gun unloaded in my trunk with a loaded magazine (in a sufficiently separate location so that the gun is legally unloaded) so that the gun can be quickly loaded if needed. This rules out anything with a tubular magazine.

3) As high a magazine capacity as I can get within NJ limits.

4) Ability to see the sights under a wide variety of conditions.

5) Ability to mount a light.

I inherited a sporterized Australian ShtLE (essentially the same as an SMLE) with a stock with a missing buttplate. A synthetic stock can be obtained for this rifle, as well as a device for mounting a scope above the ejection port. A low powered variable scope with an illuminated retical and good light gatherinc could be added. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and additional 10 round new manufacture magazines are obtainable. a Picatinny rail could be bolted onto the stock for mounting a light. Shortening the barrel would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. The result would be a modernized version of a battle-proven rifle.

Another possible choice would be a Remington pump action rifle. Since hunting with a semiauto is not allowed in PA (strange since PA is otherwise very gun friendly), I understand that Remington sells more of these here than everywhere else combined. I have seen 10 round magazines available but cannot comment on reliability.

It sounds like your Ausie ShtLE would work fairly well for your desired use. Barrels used to be available, but I think they've dried up. If its already been modified, and/or you aren't planning on selling it, it may be a good gun to modify for your use anyway.

Original magazines can be had, or it can simply be reloaded with strippers.

Is your gun a Lithgow? I don't recall if there were other Australian makers. The Lithgow I had was another one I regret selling. This makes me realize how many 303s Ive had over the years, and how cool some were.

For extra incentive, google Lee Speed rifles. They were high quality sporters on ShtLE actions, and perhaps on the Lee Metfords (pre LE)

ETA: Here, let me help with that https://www.google.com/search?q=lee+speed+rifle&biw=1093&bih=538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOr6TjtufLAhWEWSYKHVw1DDoQsAQIGw

[/Enabling]

[BillSWPA]

It sounds like your Ausie ShtLE would work fairly well for your desired use. Barrels used to be available, but I think they've dried up. If its already been modified, and/or you aren't planning on selling it, it may be a good gun to modify for your use anyway.

Original magazines can be had, or it can simply be reloaded with strippers.

Is your gun a Lithgow? I don't recall if there were other Australian makers. The Lithgow I had was another one I regret selling. This makes me realize how many 303s Ive had over the years, and how cool some were.

For extra incentive, google Lee Speed rifles. They were high quality sporters on ShtLE actions, and perhaps on the Lee Metfords (pre LE)

ETA: Here, let me help with that https://www.google.com/search?q=lee+speed+rifle&biw=1093&bih=538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOr6TjtufLAhWEWSYKHVw1DDoQsAQIGw

[/Enabling]

It is in fact a Lithgow, made in the early 1920's.

Shortening the barrel is the one thing I hesitate to do because that is the one and only thing that is not reversible. My other option for this gun would be to locate an original stock (not sure if my Dad had one somewhere) and see about getting it back to original military format. I think I may already have most of the needed parts sitting in a box.

Extra box magazines are necessary with my planned configuration because the position of the scope and scope mounting device (clamps over the ejection port) would likely make stripper clip use impossible. The iron sights on this gun were clearly designed for perfect light conditions. That narrow front post would likely be quite accurate on a range but worthless in low light.

[Bigghoss]

After reading the Lever Guns thread, especially Post 114 in which Nyeti touts the Marlin Youth 336, I had to get my hands on one. That happened today. I normally don't like 16" lever guns because I feel like they're too light in the muzzle, but this one seemed to balance a lot like a 20" gun. Also, the stock is shorter, but I think it would still work for me when I wear heavier clothing. Plenty of folks run short stocks on shotguns, so the same thinking might carry over.

Also, my LGS had them new for $409, which isn't helping.


Okie John

Yeah, I'm trying to decide what to get next. I think the 336y is probably the easiest and close to if not the cheapest to get setup. But a bolt gun offers detachable mags. Then again I have a bunch of projects in the safes, right now I'm working on a "paratrooper" SKS and my mossy 500 and I have a regular 336w to play with. Dangit, I need more money...




http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160330/ce8db57ca3c538ce7cdcaef33528864f.jpg

I've been wanting to get a K31, now I need TWO. I'm gonna have to start selling organs.

[Cool Breeze]

I only got through page 9 of the thread but has anyone mentioned a browning BLR? It is a lever gun, comes in multiple calibers, magazine fed, comes in a takedown version for ultimate travel and discretion, and also comes with a more modern version that has 1913 rails on it.

[Bigghoss]

I only got through page 9 of the thread but has anyone mentioned a browning BLR? It is a lever gun, comes in multiple calibers, magazine fed, comes in a takedown version for ultimate travel and discretion, and also comes with a more modern version that has 1913 rails on it.

That 16" scout version is badass, now I gotta get one of those too. Good thing I'm not married. If only they made 10 round mags for it.

http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/blr-black-label-takedown-16-inch-barrel.html

[newyork]

4 rds I believe.

[pablo]

I only got through page 9 of the thread but has anyone mentioned a browning BLR? It is a lever gun, comes in multiple calibers, magazine fed, comes in a takedown version for ultimate travel and discretion, and also comes with a more modern version that has 1913 rails on it.

On a good note the triggers on BLRs are attached to the lever and you can't crush or spear your finger on the trigger while working the lever. On a bad note they are very complex triggers and hard to find anyone that can work on therm outside the factory.

[rauchman]

Since I still have family in NJ, I have thought about a long gun for car trips there. My requirements:

1) Ability to deal with 2 legged as well as 4 legged predators since one relative lives right next to a wildlife preserve where problem black bears from other parts of the state are brought (that was not the case when they moved there).

2) Ability to keep the gun unloaded in my trunk with a loaded magazine (in a sufficiently separate location so that the gun is legally unloaded) so that the gun can be quickly loaded if needed. This rules out anything with a tubular magazine.

3) As high a magazine capacity as I can get within NJ limits.

4) Ability to see the sights under a wide variety of conditions.

5) Ability to mount a light.

I inherited a sporterized Australian ShtLE (essentially the same as an SMLE) with a stock with a missing buttplate. A synthetic stock can be obtained for this rifle, as well as a device for mounting a scope above the ejection port. A low powered variable scope with an illuminated retical and good light gatherinc could be added. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and additional 10 round new manufacture magazines are obtainable. a Picatinny rail could be bolted onto the stock for mounting a light. Shortening the barrel would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. The result would be a modernized version of a battle-proven rifle.

Another possible choice would be a Remington pump action rifle. Since hunting with a semiauto is not allowed in PA (strange since PA is otherwise very gun friendly), I understand that Remington sells more of these here than everywhere else combined. I have seen 10 round magazines available but cannot comment on reliability.

Not sure if you considered this, but you can have an AR or AK based system (or any other semiauto system) w/ detachable magazine and pistol grip. With these systems, you can not have a bayo lug (you have to watch out for all those drive by bayonetings), nor flash hider, however compensator/muzzle brake is allowed but must be pinned regardless of barrel length. Some of the latest and greatest muzzle devices really skirt the difference here. The general rule of thumb, as told to me by NJSP, is the opening on the end of the muzzle device can't allow insertion of the tip of the pinkie. Very vague I know, but I think NJ purposely makes their laws this way. Mag limit in NJ is 15rnds. Magpul PMags are very popular here due to their internal blockers that allow an easy 15rnd limit.

When traveling in NJ, guns and ammo must be in separate locked containers. Not sure how it pertains to passer's through the state, by when going to be range, by law, one has to go straight to the range and back. No stopping for anything,... gas, food, etc.

[newyork]

Damn. NY is 10rds and no muzzle device if semi and mag fed.

[rauchman]

Damn. NY is 10rds and no muzzle device if semi and mag fed.

I think NJ was the first state to institute AWB type restrictions in the late 80's. I believe most of the AWB under the '94 Clinton Crime Act was fashioned using NJ as the template. These days, relative to CA, IL and especially NY, NJ doesn't seem as bad.

Just read the other day that Gov. Christie vetoed the Smart Gun law that would have gone into effect, and that rotten twat bitch Sen Weinberg (who's office is a few blocks from my house) was trying to use as leverage to get some other kinds of gun laws passed. Let's not bring up former Gov McGreevey (yes, the Gov who was forced to come out of the closet) who put forth the legislation to begin with. And then there's that rat fuck Gov Corzine who's very last act (literally his last day in office at the 11th hour) was to put forth a law where one couldn't purchase more than one handgun within 30 days.

In my book, Christie is ok...

[newyork]

I think NJ was the first state to institute AWB type restrictions in the late 80's. I believe most of the AWB under the '94 Clinton Crime Act was fashioned using NJ as the template. These days, relative to CA, IL and especially NY, NJ doesn't seem as bad.

Just read the other day that Gov. Christie vetoed the Smart Gun law that would have gone into effect, and that rotten twat bitch Sen Weinberg (who's office is a few blocks from my house) was trying to use as leverage to get some other kinds of gun laws passed. Let's not bring up former Gov McGreevey (yes, the Gov who was forced to come out of the closet) who put forth the legislation to begin with. And then there's that rat fuck Gov Corzine who's very last act (literally his last day in office at the 11th hour) was to put forth a law where one couldn't purchase more than one handgun within 30 days.

In my book, Christie is ok...

New York passed the Safe Act a few years ago making NY the strictest state in the country.

[HCM]

New York passed the Safe Act a few years ago making NY the strictest state in the country.

FUAC.

[rauchman]

FUAC.

A very big +1

[Dagga Boy]

Places like California, NJ, NY, Illinois (and most of these are in the large metropolitan areas) are in competition to see which can get more Draconian on gun laws, and it is not letting up. You should see what California is working on now.....:mad:

[Malamute]

It is in fact a Lithgow, made in the early 1920's.

Shortening the barrel is the one thing I hesitate to do because that is the one and only thing that is not reversible. My other option for this gun would be to locate an original stock (not sure if my Dad had one somewhere) and see about getting it back to original military format. I think I may already have most of the needed parts sitting in a box.

Extra box magazines are necessary with my planned configuration because the position of the scope and scope mounting device (clamps over the ejection port) would likely make stripper clip use impossible. The iron sights on this gun were clearly designed for perfect light conditions. That narrow front post would likely be quite accurate on a range but worthless in low light.

I sold a complete No1 MkIII stock set a couple years ago for I think $40 or $50. I'm sure they are around. Might try surplusrifleforum. I was considering doing a forward mount scope on the one I cut down. Stripper loading was one of the reasons originally applicable to the forward mounted scope.


On a good note the triggers on BLRs are attached to the lever and you can't crush or spear your finger on the trigger while working the lever. On a bad note they are very complex triggers and hard to find anyone that can work on therm outside the factory.

I've heard for many years about spearing ones finger when operating the lever. I never have for some reason. The trigger finger seems to naturally find itself out of the guard when working the lever.


Damn. NY is 10rds and no muzzle device if semi and mag fed.

Not having a muzzle widget isn't the worst thing to happen. Thinking you mean detachable box mag fed. By definition, all repeaters use a magazine of some sort (grammar nazi off) .


New York passed the Safe Act a few years ago making NY the safest state in the country.

FIFY

[BillSWPA]

Not sure if you considered this, but you can have an AR or AK based system (or any other semiauto system) w/ detachable magazine and pistol grip. With these systems, you can not have a bayo lug (you have to watch out for all those drive by bayonetings), nor flash hider, however compensator/muzzle brake is allowed but must be pinned regardless of barrel length. Some of the latest and greatest muzzle devices really skirt the difference here. The general rule of thumb, as told to me by NJSP, is the opening on the end of the muzzle device can't allow insertion of the tip of the pinkie. Very vague I know, but I think NJ purposely makes their laws this way. Mag limit in NJ is 15rnds. Magpul PMags are very popular here due to their internal blockers that allow an easy 15rnd limit.

When traveling in NJ, guns and ammo must be in separate locked containers. Not sure how it pertains to passer's through the state, by when going to be range, by law, one has to go straight to the range and back. No stopping for anything,... gas, food, etc.

I lived in NJ when the so-called assault weapon ban was passed. It has been years since I researched NJ laws, and I am not admitted to practice in NJ, but if I recall correctly, one must be a member of a shooting club in order to possess the few semiautos that pass muster in NJ. I also seem to recall that holding a firearms purchaser ID card (I have one) permits transporting an unloaded, not readily accessible gun under a wider variety of circumstances.

[rauchman]

I lived in NJ when the so-called assault weapon ban was passed. It has been years since I researched NJ laws, and I am not admitted to practice in NJ, but if I recall correctly, one must be a member of a shooting club in order to possess the few semiautos that pass muster in NJ. I also seem to recall that holding a firearms purchaser ID card (I have one) permits transporting an unloaded, not readily accessible gun under a wider variety of circumstances.

Yes, the FID card allows purchases on long guns and ammo, as well as travel. However the travel must be directly to and from the facility.

Yes, when the AWB in NJ first kicked in, if one had a contraband weapon, it could be kept at a gun club. When the nationwide AWB went into effect in '94, in some ways it was a blessing for NJ gun owners. Up until that point, no manufacturer was making a ban compliant weapon. With the '94 AWB, it forced manufacturers to make ban compliant rifles/carbines. I remember being in a local gun shop in '95 or so and being shocked when I saw a Colt ban compliant AR in the rack. Rather, I was jumping for joy. So yes, one can own an AR/AK, whatever semi, as long as it's ban compliant.

[SLG]

Since I still have family in NJ, I have thought about a long gun for car trips there. My requirements:

1) Ability to deal with 2 legged as well as 4 legged predators since one relative lives right next to a wildlife preserve where problem black bears from other parts of the state are brought (that was not the case when they moved there).

2) Ability to keep the gun unloaded in my trunk with a loaded magazine (in a sufficiently separate location so that the gun is legally unloaded) so that the gun can be quickly loaded if needed. This rules out anything with a tubular magazine.

3) As high a magazine capacity as I can get within NJ limits.

4) Ability to see the sights under a wide variety of conditions.

5) Ability to mount a light.

I inherited a sporterized Australian ShtLE (essentially the same as an SMLE) with a stock with a missing buttplate. A synthetic stock can be obtained for this rifle, as well as a device for mounting a scope above the ejection port. A low powered variable scope with an illuminated retical and good light gatherinc could be added. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and additional 10 round new manufacture magazines are obtainable. a Picatinny rail could be bolted onto the stock for mounting a light. Shortening the barrel would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. The result would be a modernized version of a battle-proven rifle.

Another possible choice would be a Remington pump action rifle. Since hunting with a semiauto is not allowed in PA (strange since PA is otherwise very gun friendly), I understand that Remington sells more of these here than everywhere else combined. I have seen 10 round magazines available but cannot comment on reliability.

All of this screams 12 gauge to me. I'm in the minority here I guess.

I'm 5'6" on a good day, 150#. Size does not matter for running the gauge, technique and practice matter. A correct length stock - my favorite is a magpul with no spacers - and things are good. Everything else is just gravy, but I do like Big Dome safties and side saddles. Any light you like is probably fine, though I often run a 12 without a light on it for non professional use. A 1 shot extension is my favorite, but a 2 shot makes the gun seem to shoot even softer. I use Ghost rings mostly but I have a T2 on my WC gun, and it is like running the main gun on a tank, as far as speed and ease of hitting, clear out to damn near 150 yards.

For every problem brought up in this thread, the gauge is really my answer. Not sure why so few like it. I've shot a lot of living things with rifles cartridges, and usually they work great. The gauge works greater.

[45dotACP]

Places like California, NJ, NY, Illinois (and most of these are in the large metropolitan areas) are in competition to see which can get more Draconian on gun laws, and it is not letting up. You should see what California is working on now.....:mad:
Yes and no....unless you're in Cook County a 30 round mag fed rifle with all the goodies is a definite option. We're not quite as good as Indiana...where I wish I still lived...but we're a farther cry from the SAFE act than some states...

Downstate rural Democrats...in spite of political affiliation are basically why we've held off AWBs statewide and got concealed carry on a "must issue" basis.

[Doug]

I am not sure if this was discussed in the thread but there is also the 7615p. I have one as a novelty.

Here is a video that reminded me about it.

I look at it like a modernized lever action.

You can put a Magpul shotgun stock on it with a Mesa adapter if so inclined.


http://youtu.be/NU-z3C8osuM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I am not sure if this was discussed in the thread but there is also the 7615p. I have one as a novelty.

Here is a video that reminded me about it.

I look at it like a modernized lever action.

You can put a Magpul shotgun stock on it with a Mesa adapter if so inclined.

http://youtu.be/NU-z3C8osuM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: The 7615p. Just no. They quickly break or malfunction when run hard, plus you get the same user induced malfunctions you see with the 870 (short stroking etc). You were correct to describe them as a novelty. I would take a Mini 14 over a 7615p any day.

[Cool Breeze]

if having a small discreet long gun was what you wanted...I think a pump action shotgun is not considered an "assault weapon" and you can put a folding stock on it. That would be cool. I'm not sure of any good folding stocks that are produced for the 870 but something like what is offered on arsenal Aks or the magpul ak side folder would be sweet!

[That Guy]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160330/ce8db57ca3c538ce7cdcaef33528864f.jpg

Dear gods... Every time I see a photo like that I envy all you right-handed people. So many cool rifles to play with...

And then I go fondle my Ruger Scout for a bit and think to myself that things could be a lot worse. :)

But dayumn, that is still one gorgeous looking rifle! Congratulations.

[Bigghoss]

Dear gods... Every time I see a photo like that I envy all you right-handed people. So many cool rifles to play with...


It's called right-handed for a reason. :p

[Inkwell 41]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160330/ce8db57ca3c538ce7cdcaef33528864f.jpg
Wow, nice! I've got a sporterized 1903 that I want to scout. It will never make weight and maybe not length to be a real scout, but it suits me just fine. Besides, what can't you do with a 30-06?

[Drang]

Besides, what can't you do with a 30-06?
and $700?

[Inkwell 41]

and $700?

Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.

[Matthew]

I do like the idea of the CZ 527, specifically SteveB's setup. And, ironically (well I guess not so much so), it would be for use in CT.

[Bigghoss]

Between this and the shotgun thread I got to thinking about a 20ga Mossberg I bubba'd pretty bad about 9 or 10 years ago. I had just started making good money and I had one of those bad ass but useless bird's head pistol grips laying around so I went down to walmart and bought a 500c Bantam for $209 and used a hacksaw to lop off the barrel like an idiot and ditched the nice wood buttstock for the pistol grip. Gonna either get the original stock back from the guy I gave it to or buy a new one and get a 'smith to un-f**k the vent rib barrel and thread it for choke tubes. I could just buy an 18.5" 20 gauge barrel but I think a vent rib along with the wood stock will give it the appearance of a regular hunting shotgun and therefore make it more "PC". Plus I might actually hunt with it so the chokes would be a nice addition. Then get a leather shell holder for the stock, maybe get some kind of hunting/outdoors scene embossed on the left side. Spendy but it'll look nice and help sell the whole I-Didn't-Build-This-Because-I-Was-Hoping-To-Shoot-People vibe.

[Digiroc]

I'd listen closely to what Nyeti has written.

Personally in a state with asinine illogical firearms laws and 10 rd mag restriction, I'd go with a Rem 870, .44 Mag or .30-30 lever gun, or M1 rifle. CZ 527 carbine in 7.62X39 or an SMLE would also be reasonable if you want a bolt gun.

EDIT: To be on topic my tactical long guns are a Ruger Mini-30 and a Ruger SR762, my short long gun is a Mossberg Cruiser 18" and pistol grip, but what would I want to carry to fight my way to them:

How about a Gen 3 S&W 1006 in 10mm? Nine round clip, so you can have ten 10's to settle things. California approved.

I read your great ballistics post and it has given me pause to many long carried misconceptions I've held. What about the 10mm cartridge omitted from your testing? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that round and any ballistics data you might have for it.

Digiroc

[Digiroc]

The Ruger Mini-30 meets all the NY requirements if 10 round mag is used. A short, light handy gun which when chambered in 7.62x39 has all the advantages of the AK and SKS but doesn't look like an assault rife:

7173

Mine has a threaded muzzle so it wouldn't qualify:

7174

On the other hand my 12 Ga. Cruiser is a handy "truck" gun:

7175

Digiroc

[BigT]

Finger banged the troy pump rifles at a local distributor recently. Obviously don't know how they hold up and work, but on the face of it they look like solid choices for rifles in places like NY or Kali.

Here they make sense as licensing one is substantially easier and open to more people than a rifle that is semi auto, no matter how it looks,

[Cecil Burch]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160330/ce8db57ca3c538ce7cdcaef33528864f.jpg


I really, really like this set up A LOT.

Do you mind answering a couple of questions?

1) where is the stock from?

2) where and how did you get the rail?

If the answers are simple, you are going to cost me some money soon!

[JAD]

If the answers are simple, you are going to cost me some money soon!

Well, you're in luck :).

I got a couple of inquiries by PM as well -- it is a sexy beast. Here's a quick summary:

I picked up a couple of the K31s when they were $100, back in ought. I found an ultralight stock from a company called Richards Microfit (rifle-stocks.com). They no longer make it, but they do make a few styles of laminate stocks that are 96% inlet for the K31. Feels like it's made out of balsa, really needs a rattlecan job.

The sight rail is an XS Clifton mount (http://www.xssights.com/Search.aspx?TERM=clifton). Mine's glass bedded to the barrel; the action is bedded, and the light rail is pillar bedded.

I found a gunsmith, good dude who's famous for his Garand work, who would bed the action, cut and park the barrel, and mount the light rail and the clifton. He did a great job *except* he never got the action set right in the stock, so the mag release is impinged, so the mag won't seat fully, so the gun won't pick up rounds from the left side of the column.

I am currently trying to decide whether to try to dremel on it myself (I haven't got around to it since 2011 when I got the rifle in its current state) or find someone to fix it. I might take it in to Jackson armory and see if I can get them to work on it. It's worth it - it's a very handy gun and while I haven't really worked it out it's definitely better than 2 MOA with GP11.

I did leave it in 7.5 -- basically .30-06 ballistics and not hard to reload for, takes standard .308" bullets. The only commonality of case head is .376 Steyr... Tempting!

I have about $400 bucks in the rifle, less the optic.

[Cecil Burch]

Well, you're in luck :).

I got a couple of inquiries by PM as well -- it is a sexy beast. Here's a quick summary:

I picked up a couple of the K31s when they were $100, back in ought. I found an ultralight stock from a company called Richards Microfit (rifle-stocks.com). They no longer make it, but they do make a few styles of laminate stocks that are 96% inlet for the K31. Feels like it's made out of balsa, really needs a rattlecan job.

The sight rail is an XS Clifton mount (http://www.xssights.com/Search.aspx?TERM=clifton). Mine's glass bedded to the barrel; the action is bedded, and the light rail is pillar bedded.

I found a gunsmith, good dude who's famous for his Garand work, who would bed the action, cut and park the barrel, and mount the light rail and the clifton. He did a great job *except* he never got the action set right in the stock, so the mag release is impinged, so the mag won't seat fully, so the gun won't pick up rounds from the left side of the column.

I am currently trying to decide whether to try to dremel on it myself (I haven't got around to it since 2011 when I got the rifle in its current state) or find someone to fix it. I might take it in to Jackson armory and see if I can get them to work on it. It's worth it - it's a very handy gun and while I haven't really worked it out it's definitely better than 2 MOA with GP11.

I did leave it in 7.5 -- basically .30-06 ballistics and not hard to reload for, takes standard .308" bullets. The only commonality of case head is .376 Steyr... Tempting!

I have about $400 bucks in the rifle, less the optic.

Thanks much dude! I am looking at that rail mount in two seconds :)

[Digiroc]

The Mossberg 500 "Persuader" comes with both standard shoulder stock as well as an interchangeable pistol grip just like the "Cruiser" shown above, it comes sans heat guard and looks more "normal" despite the 18" barrel, especially with the full stock installed. One bolt swap in 5 minutes.

But the shotgun is purely defensive, sure you could hunt deer and bear with it, but you better be prepared to get within archery distance. The Ruger mini-30 is a great shooter and can take deer sized game out to 200 yards.

But if bolt guns float your boat there are many inexpensive rifles out there with tuning can become extremely accurate. Here is my varmint rifle, a custom built by Shaw Precision Guns on the Savage action. It's 6mm or .243 caliber for a fast, flat shooter. The ammo is readily available and the .243 round has been around for decades. It's a sub-MOA shooter. A .308 might be a better choice for all around use.

7203

Actually I'd get two NY guns, the shotgun or Ruger and a nice bolt gun for being able to hunt and reach out much farther in a tactical situation.

Digiroc

edit: the optic is a Burris 4.5x14

[newyork]

Couple last minute contenders beside the CZ and Ruger Scout...how about a Savage model 11 Scout or Tikka T3 (if I didn't go DB?

[SLG]

I would prefer the Tikka over the Savage, but that's me.

[newyork]

I know they have a great reputation. The Savage has the advantage of a dbm and larger capacity and iron sights though.

[RONK]

Tikka here too,the CTR in .260 would be hard to beat as an all around rifle.

[SteveB]

Couple last minute contenders beside the CZ and Ruger Scout...how about a Savage model 11 Scout or Tikka T3 (if I didn't go DB?

You're looking at some really different bolt guns; I think it's worth reviewing what you want this rifle to do. The 527 is a micro action, so it's more of a niche gun. This is not a problem if you are going to have multiple rifles for different tasks, but if you are going to have just one rifle for a while, it's hard to beat a short action, based on the .308 family of cartridges. While I love the .260 (and 6.5mm cartridges in general), if I was going to have just one bolt rifle, it would be a .308. Hunting medium to big NA animals (wide range of excellent hunting ammo choices); taking a practical rifle course where you might shoot 4-500 rounds in a weekend (plenty of cheap NATO ball available); good long range cartridge; ammo available everywhere. I used to think there was no place for a DBM on a hunting rifle, but it sure comes in handy when you want to unload/load while climbing into a deer stand. If you decide on DBM, and you are interested in the rifle for a practical rifle course and personal defense, it's worth making sure that the magazines are easy to insert and get out of the rifle in a hurry, that they are durable and available and that they feed reliably. I would always choose controlled-round feed over push feed actions. Finally, if you are on a budget, you might consider a rifle that is easily upgraded, with a DBM kit, for example. This FN kit will also fit Winchester Model 70 actions, the mags are reliable and drop free for fast reloading.

7383

[newyork]

I can't hunt with rifles unless I travel a good distance. This Fall I will hunt for the 1st time in my 41 years. It'll be for duck and geese and turkey, with a shotgun.
The rifle will be for practical courses, defense at distance, MAYBE hunting out of my area, and fun at the range.
I am on a budget. I'd be running irons only for a while unless I went used and could spend $800 on a combo. New M70 is $800 with no sights, dbm or optic, but I'd love that rifle.
Any experience with that Savage? The CZ still seems smartest with the Ruger and Savage right behind it (out of the box stock anyway).

[Digiroc]

I can't hunt with rifles unless I travel a good distance. This Fall I will hunt for the 1st time in my 41 years. It'll be for duck and geese and turkey, with a shotgun...

Here's a good choice for the birds you'll be hunting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LLDMCIS41I

It would work pretty well for home defense with any left over Turkey loads.

Digiroc

[newyork]

Ouch. Looks brutal.

I have a shotgun for hunting on the way as we speak. Still wanting a rifle as well.

[revolvergeek]

The modified No4 Enfield.

6698

6699

VERY nicely done! I have often toyed with the idea of making a 1917 Carbine. A couple years back I picked up an 03 Scout rifle that someone had built and that calmed the urge for the time being...

[revolvergeek]

Wow, nice! I've got a sporterized 1903 that I want to scout. It will never make weight and maybe not length to be a real scout, but it suits me just fine. Besides, what can't you do with a 30-06?

I quite like mine. I stumbled into it cheap a few years back pre-done. Whoever built it apparently put some kind of red dot on it, and I am going to go that way with it myself. It is just about impossible to get eye relief correct and clear everything enough to use stripper clips to feed it. It has an old 2-7 Redfield pistol scope on it now with extension rings currently, but I am going to ditch all that and put a decent to good red dot on it. I may end up trimming down the rear of that mount just a little to get more clearance.

57162

[Inkwell 41]

I quite like mine. I stumbled into it cheap a few years back pre-done. Whoever built it apparently put some kind of red dot on it, and I am going to go that way with it myself. It is just about impossible to get eye relief correct and clear everything enough to use stripper clips to feed it. It has an old 2-7 Redfield pistol scope on it now with extension rings currently, but I am going to ditch all that and put a decent to good red dot on it. I may end up trimming down the rear of that mount just a little to get more clearance.

57162

That barrel looks very short. Is it less than 18”?

[revolvergeek]

That barrel looks very short. Is it less than 18”?

Pretty short, but the stock is also a little long and that distorts the perspective. The barrel measures 16.75” to the start of the break, and just a touch over 18” with.

[Lester Polfus]

Re: The 7615p. Just no. They quickly break or malfunction when run hard, plus you get the same user induced malfunctions you see with the 870 (short stroking etc). You were correct to describe them as a novelty. I would take a Mini 14 over a 7615p any day.

HOLY NECRO POST!

Do we know what breaks on a 7615p?

[HCM]

HOLY NECRO POST!

Do we know what breaks on a 7615p?

Action bars and small bolt parts.

[NH Shooter]

If I had to go back....

https://www.eurooptic.com/JRTXE316C-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-Lite-Compact-308-Win-SYN-200--barr.aspx

https://tikkaperformance.com/Tikka-T3-T3x-Gen2-Performance-Series-Picatinny-Rail

https://seekinsprecision.com/scope-rings-35mm-tube-1.html

https://vortexoptics.com/riflescopes/vortex-razor-gen-iii-riflescopes/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope.html?vortex_reticle=18079

https://highdesertrifleworks.com/collections/hard-goods/products/lineear-black-high-desert-rifle-works-tikka-t3-aluminum-trigger-guard

https://tikkaperformance.com/Tikka-T3T3x-Bolt-Handles

https://tikkaperformance.com/Tikka-T3-T3x-Magazines


Hell, maybe even if I stay in NH!

[Lester Polfus]

Action bars and small bolt parts.

That's not encouraging.

Thanks.

[OlongJohnson]

I tried to search the thread and didn't see it mentioned, so just connecting dots.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27891-Browning-MK-3-DBM

Browning advertises it as 50-state-legal. May be outside the budget under discussion, but could work for others.

[Bigghoss]

The 7615 is a popular gun in Australia and the couple Aussies I asked about them say they suck. They break if you run them hard and they choke if you run them soft. A damn shame because I really wanted one too.

[Lester Polfus]

The 7615 is a popular gun in Australia and the couple Aussies I asked about them say they suck. They break if you run them hard and they choke if you run them soft. A damn shame because I really wanted one too.

Yeah, I spent about 45 minutes in that particular rabbit hole today. When I came back to the surface, I had come to the conclusion that as much as I wanted the Tactical Amish Machine gun to be a thing, it's a non-starter. The shell strippers apparently break with alarming regularity.