Significant Case on Rule 2, 3, 4

[John Hearne]

Case link: http://media.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/15-1141P-01A.pdf

Force Science hasn't posted the article to their web site yet.

From Force Science #306:
"Indeed, the team confronted him in a hallway, roused from bed and startled at what was happening. He immediately complied with orders to lie face down on the floor, hands above his head. An operator was told to watch him while others canvassed the premises.

The officer did so by pointing a loaded M-4 carbine, "with the safety off and his finger on the trigger," at the old man's head, according to the court's recap of the incident.

"At some point," the court recounted, the operator "pulled the trigger of his rifle and shot" the detainee. The single round fatally pierced the man's head, neck, and chest.

The officer claimed the rifle unintentionally discharged when he lost his balance and fell back while trying to handcuff the victim. Everyone acknowledged that he had "no intention of shooting"; the shot "was an accident.""

[Chuck Haggard]

If the facts of the case are exaclty as presented I'd think a solid case for negligent homicide would be easy to prove.

[Duces Tecum]

Thus sayeth the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit:

SNIP For the reasons stated above, we affirm the denial of the defendants' motion for entry of summary judgment on the basis of qualified immunity. Costs are awarded to the plaintiffs SNIP

He's toast.

[Wayne Dobbs]

And he should be criminal toast. His negligence was hideous. We've only known the Four Rules for ~40 years and the involuntary contraction/finger on trigger issues for ~30 years. When do you think we should get EVERYBODY on board with that stuff?

[Dagga Boy]

I have been told that safety rules don't apply to SWAT folks because they are "special" and "operators". Weird how we have a set of four things that we absolutely know work to ensure that the wrong folks don't get hurt or killed...and total embrace of those rules are still fought, changed, ignored and often ridiculed or simply paid lip service to.

[TheRoland]

This case was local to me when it happened. There's an interesting dynamic on this one where the police department and the officer involved are still well-liked and the whole town really wanted this to just go away... And it pretty much did. The DA declined to prosecute long ago.

This is why I'm personally quite apprehensive of small-town "SWAT" teams that don't get the level of training one might hope for.

[Wayne Dobbs]

This case was local to me when it happened. There's an interesting dynamic on this one where the police department and the officer involved are still well-liked and the whole town really wanted this to just go away... And it pretty much did. The DA declined to prosecute long ago.

This is why I'm personally quite apprehensive of small-town "SWAT" teams that don't get the level of training one might hope for.

Are you saying the officer kept his job with the PD after this????

[TheRoland]

Are you saying the officer kept his job with the PD after this????

He did. Really explaining would involve a discussion of suburban politics, which might be a big digression for this forum.

It would probably have gone differently in a bigger city or a place with a less positively-viewed department.

[Chuck Haggard]

That makes the Chief there an idiot. I'd suspect if the deceased's family pushes things they have a hell of a lawsuit going, keeping a guy like that sets a pattern of behavior up that would fall under "deliberate indifference".


This would be a case where such a decision might be worth setting a few cars on fire in protest. When the cops actually fuck up big time overlooking it doesn't help anyone and makes the rest of us look bad.

[TheRoland]

I'm no longer local, but I believe that all the other lawsuits have been dismissed or decided in the city/department's favor. This suit against the individual officer is all that remains.

[cclaxton]

I was talking about this issue with head of a local SWAT unit. He explained that there is a lot of debate about carbine safety protocol/training. His agency works under the Safety ON protocol: The carbine Safety must be ON for all circumstances except when ready to engage a target. Other agencies use Safety OFF for anytime they are actively engaged in an operation. This SWAT Lieutenant's opinion is that SWAT officers should have Safety's OFF once they start the operation, but stringently trained to keep trigger fingers indexed at all times and use low ready appropriately except when actually engaging targets. He trains his guys this way, but under the protocol they are still forced to use Safety's ON. He is lobbying his leadership to get the policy changed.

I would think that using the overlearning idea that officers can be trained to index the trigger finger in an automated manner and only moved to the trigger when a DECISION is made to shoot. But I am not the expert. What do you guys think?
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

I was talking about this issue with head of a local SWAT unit. He explained that there is a lot of debate about carbine safety protocol/training. His agency works under the Safety ON protocol: The carbine Safety must be ON for all circumstances except when ready to engage a target. Other agencies use Safety OFF for anytime they are actively engaged in an operation. This SWAT Lieutenant's opinion is that SWAT officers should have Safety's OFF once they start the operation, but stringently trained to keep trigger fingers indexed at all times and use low ready appropriately except when actually engaging targets. He trains his guys this way, but under the protocol they are still forced to use Safety's ON. He is lobbying his leadership to get the policy changed.

I would think that using the overlearning idea that officers can be trained to index the trigger finger in an automated manner and only moved to the trigger when a DECISION is made to shoot. But I am not the expert. What do you guys think?
Cody

Then the head of your local SWAT unit is a raging fucktard and shouldn't be in his position. Running around safety off with long guns is a complete no-go. This isn't the 1980s, and he isn't SAS.

[Kevin B.]

Then the head of your local SWAT unit is a raging fucktard and shouldn't be in his position. Running around safety off with long guns is a complete no-go. This isn't the 1980s, and he isn't SAS.

Quoted because this cannot be overstated.

[cclaxton]

Then the head of your local SWAT unit is a raging fucktard and shouldn't be in his position. Running around safety off with long guns is a complete no-go. This isn't the 1980s, and he isn't SAS.
Just to be clear, this is not the Fairfax County SWAT. But for obvious reasons I don't want to name the agency.
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Just to be clear, this is not the Fairfax County SWAT. But for obvious reasons I don't want to name the agency.
Cody

You can tell him "Chuck Haggard says...", I'll stand behind that statement.

[cclaxton]

Then the head of your local SWAT unit is a raging fucktard and shouldn't be in his position. Running around safety off with long guns is a complete no-go. This isn't the 1980s, and he isn't SAS.
So what is the recommended procedure/protocol?
Let's say it's a entry for the purposes of an arrest warrant for a potentially armed suspect, but family/non-threats will be present in the building.
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

So what is the recommended procedure/protocol?
Let's say it's a entry for the purposes of an arrest warrant for a potentially armed suspect, but family/non-threats will be present in the building.
Cody

Long guns need to be on safe until you have made the decision to shoot AND you are bringing the muzzle on target. Lets say you are in the low ready, as the muzzle rises on a threat you have decided to shoot, the safety comes off as the muzzle starts to cross onto the bad guy, if you watch me shoot carbines you'll see my safety come off about knee level to the target as the muzzle rises.

There is zero, zero, time penalty in running the safety this way.

[cclaxton]

Long guns need to be on safe until you have made the decision to shoot AND you are bringing the muzzle on target. Lets say you are in the low ready, as the muzzle rises on a threat you have decided to shoot, the safety comes off as the muzzle starts to cross onto the bad guy, if you watch me shoot carbines you'll see my safety come off about knee level to the target as the muzzle rises.

There is zero, zero, time penalty in running the safety this way.
Thanks. That is also consistent with the procedure I was taught by Green-Ops.
I will tell him. If he asks, I will give him your name.
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks. That is also consistent with the procedure I was taught by Green-Ops.
I will tell him. If he asks, I will give him your name.
Cody

He needs to read this while he is at it;

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_weapon_safety.PDF


and maybe watch this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM

As Pat says, "It can only be an enabler, never a disabler".

[TC215]

The only time I've heard it preached to run a long gun with the safety off is with the MP-5, because most people have to adjust their hands/grip to get to the selector switch. I think the NTOA to this day recommends running them with the safety off. I have big hands/long fingers, and run mine with the safety on.

I don't know anyone personally that teaches to run carbines with the safety off.

[PD Sgt.]

We have had several instances with a tactical unit officer (full time tac unit) NDing. One, a slung but not safed carbine discharged when the officer went hands on with a subject. Fortunately no one was struck. Another officer nearly ventilated a range officer behind the firing line with a weapon he believed clear. A third shot another team member on approach to a structure. The team member struck survived but had to undergo several surgeries.

I am not on any of these units, and I am not in a position to tell them how they should run their units. The really galling thing is that all the officers kept their positions on their respective teams.

[TC215]

We have had several instances with a tactical unit officer (full time tac unit) NDing. One, a slung but not safed carbine discharged when the officer went hands on with a subject. Fortunately no one was struck. Another officer nearly ventilated a range officer behind the firing line with a weapon he believed clear. A third shot another team member on approach to a structure. The team member struck survived but had to undergo several surgeries.

I am not on any of these units, and I am not in a position to tell them how they should run their units. The really galling thing is that all the officers kept their positions on their respective teams.

A neighboring agency's team had one a few years ago (actually generally a squared away team). Officer had his AR slung with the safety off. The team was coming out of a house after a search warrant, and when the officer was coming down the steps, something on his vest got in the trigger guard, and put a round into one of the stairs. It was a miracle no one was hurt.

From what I understand, when the nylon ninjas ND in the projects, it gets a lot of peoples' attention.

[Chuck Haggard]

The only time I've heard it preached to run a long gun with the safety off is with the MP-5, because most people have to adjust their hands/grip to get to the selector switch. I think the NTOA to this day recommends running them with the safety off. I have big hands/long fingers, and run mine with the safety on.

I don't know anyone personally that teaches to run carbines with the safety off.

I know people who run MP5s safety on, but the safety on the MP5 is tough for many people to reach, yet another reason why using MP5s has been a bad idea since the 1980s.


Locally a friend of mine shot a compliant suspect with an ND during an arrest, because he couldn't be bothered to run his safety on. The only reason he didn't get his ass sued off was the bad guy in that case was such a complete and utter douchebag that the jury refused to give him a dime.
The KBI team had a dude do a seven round full auto ND during an operation due to gear getting into the trigger guard while the switch was obviously set to "Happy".

[TC215]

I know people who run MP5s safety on, but the safety on the MP5 is tough for many people to reach, yet another reason why using MP5s has been a bad idea since the 1980s.


Locally a friend of mine shot a compliant suspect with an ND during an arrest, because he couldn't be bothered to run his safety on. The only reason he didn't get his ass sued off was the bad guy in that case was such a complete and utter douchebag that the jury refused to give him a dime.
The KBI team had a dude do a seven round full auto ND during an operation due to gear getting into the trigger guard while the switch was obviously set to "Happy".

I'm getting off-topic, but I'm about the only person on our team that still uses an MP every now and then. Like everyone else, we've used AR's as primaries for years, but I will sometimes run the MP on a call-out, depending on the situation. I just like the thing and shoot it well.

[Stephanie B]

I'm no longer local, but I believe that all the other lawsuits have been dismissed or decided in the city/department's favor. This suit against the individual officer is all that remains.I don't know about that. The caption has the officer being sued both personally and in his official capacity. That would seem to suggest that the City of Framingham is indeed on the hook for this.

[psalms144.1]

I can't possibly echo strongly enough the sentiments that anyone running "off safe" with an AR style rifle is asking for an ND. The AR safety is very easy and intuitive to switch off. I'll add that one of the reasons why the Mk16's safety mimics the M4s, despite NSW wanting a 45/45 throw (safe-semi-full) is because the other services felt it would be too easy to "overshoot" semi and throw from safe to full during surprise engagements. Which, defacto, indicates that most of our special operators are, indeed, running their carbines on safe UNTIL they've made the conscious decision to fire. What a concept...

I'm also still running an MP5, because my agency still has not switched automatic-weapons "handlers" to M4s across the board yet. I agree the MP5's safety is a royal PITA, but I still run it on safe all the time. I've adapted my grip to work the safety - suboptimal, for sure, but MUCH better than putting a bullet into someone who doesn't need one.

[Kevin B.]

My impression is that many organization's carbine training programs/SOPs are heavily influenced by the MP-5.

A little bit of discipline goes a long way. I have always run the safety on the MP-5, to include the H&K MP-5 Operator's Course. A bit of a pain, but a non-issue.

[Hambo]

I agree the MP5's safety is a royal PITA, but I still run it on safe all the time. I've adapted my grip to work the safety - suboptimal, for sure, but MUCH better than putting a bullet into someone who doesn't need one.

I loved shooting the MP5s but I don't think the selector was designed for human hands. The best way I found to make it work for me was to keep my thumb on the right side of the grip and work the switch from there.

The safety on an AR/M4 is so easy to manipulate that it should be on unless you're shooting.

[psalms144.1]

The best way I found to make it work for me was to keep my thumb on the right side of the grip and work the switch from there. PRECISELY the technique I use. Not optimal for anything, but it works.

[Chuck Haggard]

Part of the problem with the continued cult of the MP5 is so many people in the US go to Phil Singleton's training, and he screams at people who run the safety, because SAS or whatever.

[TAZ]

I think too many people watch Blackhawk Down and take the buffet scene seriously. No every bad ass wanna be's index finger is his safety. I think Germans have a genetic disposition to long, triple jointed thumbs cause not - single HK I've ever run has had a usable thumb safety. MP5, USP, HK45,P30 not one could my little Ghegis Kahn derived thumbs operate efficiently. The M4 is like a dream to get off of safe and into a fight. IMO I suck with a carbine yet I suffer no time penalty from having to take my rifle off safe as I'm bringing the gun to beat on my target. The idea that folks teach safety off from the moment they step out of the wagon is stupid. The thought that folks keep their jobs after incidents like the above is beyond retarded.

[Chuck Haggard]

The irony of said scene from BHD is the the real guy regrets it ever happened, that scene was out of context, and that unit is VERY in to running the safety on their long guns.

That meme, it doesn't mean what people think it means.

[Coyotesfan97]

I used my support hand to reach over the top of the receiver to work the safety when I ran MP5s. IIRC it was one of the HK instructors at my operator or instructor class who turned me onto that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

I think too many people watch Blackhawk Down and take the buffet scene seriously. No every bad ass wanna be's index finger is his safety. I think Germans have a genetic disposition to long, triple jointed thumbs cause not - single HK I've ever run has had a usable thumb safety. MP5, USP, HK45,P30 not one could my little Ghegis Kahn derived thumbs operate efficiently. The M4 is like a dream to get off of safe and into a fight. IMO I suck with a carbine yet I suffer no time penalty from having to take my rifle off safe as I'm bringing the gun to beat on my target. The idea that folks teach safety off from the moment they step out of the wagon is stupid. The thought that folks keep their jobs after incidents like the above is beyond retarded.

Dude, if my size XL Teutonic hands can't run an HK safety, nobody's can. I'm telling you, Ze Germans had some other primate in mind when they made those things.