P250 DAO vs P2000 LEM

[chiral]

I have a P320 compact that I am trying to get used to and was wondering if the P250 compact might be a good option when and if I ever decide to carry AIWB. Pros include having holsters/magazines/sights for the P320 which can be used for the P250 along with the safety features of having a hammer fired gun to holster. I'm also closely looking at the P2000 9mm LEM as a possible AIWB option.

Is there anyone that has tried both triggers that can let me know if they are similar or offer any opinions on the topic. Thanks and much appreciated!

[Luke]

I'm shooting a P320 in competition and currently carrying a P30. I e been bidding on P250's on gun broker.

The 250 rear sight can't be changed due to design, so if you want night sights be sure and buy a night sight gun. As far as I know holsters, mags, and grip modules all interchange.

[ffhounddog]

When I shot them both They are not similar to me. LEM is one way and DAO is totally different.

I have carried a P2000 lem for years and want to go back to it.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The 250 rear sight can't be changed due to design, so if you want night sights be sure and buy a night sight gun. As far as I know holsters, mags, and grip modules all interchange.

The above is all true. My only hesitation with having both a 320 and 250 would be that the ergonomics ARE the same. If you had the 320 in hand whilst thinking you were holding the 250, that light trigger break might be a surprise. (this come from someone who, many moons ago, might have been distracted while loading up for a day trip, and upon returning home discovered that he had been carrying a G17 with a G23 mag as a reload. Allegedly)

If the above doesn't apply to you, carry on.

[oldtexan]

I'm shooting a P320 in competition and currently carrying a P30. I e been bidding on P250's on gun broker.

The 250 rear sight can't be changed due to design, so if you want night sights be sure and buy a night sight gun. As far as I know holsters, mags, and grip modules all interchange.

The P250 rear sight can be changed, but it's specific to the P250. There are three heights of P250 rear sight (L, M, and H). Standard SIG dovetail-mounted rear sights (for a P220, P226, P228, P229, P320, etc)don't fit the P250. As far as I know, no one makes an aftermarket option for the p250 rear sight.

[Tamara]

Shot with the P250C in .380 this morning...

6399

[babypanther]

I like both. To me the SIG 250 was really smooth throughout the trigger travel, whereas LEM will have a wall that is heavier to pull through than the initial makeup. Id pick up a P2000 LEM in 9mm for AIWB in a heartbeat, but if you are kind of invested in the SIG modules then that makes sense too.

[LockedBreech]

I'm clearly super behind the times on the 250. I recall it having a reputation for subpar reliability. Did they finally iron it out?

[HCM]

I'm clearly super behind the times on the 250. I recall it having a reputation for subpar reliability. Did they finally iron it out?

The first generation P250 had issues. SIG quietly fixed them resulting in the current / second generation guns. I don't think SIG actually acknowledges them as a second generation and by the time the issues were fixed, SIG had lost some big sales and the damage was done. The P250 was also late to the LE game and by the time it was released, many competing long pull DAO autos were being phased out for striker fired guns.

[LockedBreech]

The first generation P250 had issues. SIG quietly fixed them resulting in the current / second generation guns. I don't think SIG actually acknowledges them as a second generation and by the time the issues were fixed, SIG had lost some big sales and the damage was done. The P250 was also late to the LE game and by the time it was released, many competing long pull DAO autos were being phased out for striker fired guns.

Interesting. Is that why there seems to be major commonality with the P320? Saving as much ROI as possible?


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[chiral]

Great information! I never realized that the LEM trigger had a wall. I always thought it was smooth throughout like a DAO. Thanks!

[Chuck Whitlock]

The P250 rear sight can be changed, but it's specific to the P250. There are three heights of P250 rear sight (L, M, and H). Standard SIG dovetail-mounted rear sights (for a P220, P226, P228, P229, P320, etc)don't fit the P250. As far as I know, no one makes an aftermarket option for the p250 rear sight.

Thanks for that clarification.....I didn't catch it before.

[NCmtnman]

Great information! I never realized that the LEM trigger had a wall. I always thought it was smooth throughout like a DAO. Thanks!

It's hardly worth even mentioning.

[HCM]

Interesting. Is that why there seems to be major commonality with the P320? Saving as much ROI as possible?


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That may be part of it but also when releasing a new gun availability of holsters extra mags. Etc tends to be an issue. When the P 320 came out, it fit existing P250 holsters, accepted existing P250 grip frames and magazines and accepted all existing P series aftermarket sights. That is a pretty big Headstart in support of your new product.

One of the complaints about the P250 was it took years for the grip frames and caliber exchange kits etc to become availible. When your selling point is "modular gun" and the modules aren't availible it's a problem.

[Luke]

How can you tell which "generation" you have?

[HCM]

production date subsequent to 12/2009 should be gen2 - the fired case date should help. You can also call SIG - they should be able to tell by the serial number. I believe they changed the serial number prefix when they switched to the new generation.

6413

[Cincinnatus]

It's hardly worth even mentioning.

Depends on spring setup. A V2 in a P30 has a wall that is far stiffer than a V1 light spring set up.

[entropy]

I disagree. The initail take up with the LEM is minimal in weight. Its basically the trigger return spring. At approximately 80% of travel the "second stage" is encountered. Depending on the setup, that can be 8+ pounds for the "Heavy LEM". Its a substantial transition that for some (including me) takes constant practice to remain proficient. The P250 is more of a "traditional" DAO with a consistant pull throughout, much like a revolver. The reset on the LEM is similar to other autoloaders in that you move the trigger forward to reengauge that "second stage" at whatever weight it is set up for. (Light LEM, Medium LEM, Heavy LEM (sorry, dont know the exact weights)). The P250 has NO reset. Just like a traditional DA revolver has no reset.

[LockedBreech]

This darn thread has the P250 in my mind. Thanks to the initial bad rep they can be had for 350-400 now. New. If they're really fixed now that's a steal for a extra Sig around the house.


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[LSP972]

This darn thread has the P250 in my mind. Thanks to the initial bad rep they can be had for 350-400 now. New. If they're really fixed now that's a steal for a extra Sig around the house.


Indeed. I was about to buy one, then got distracted by the siren song of a M11A-1.

Given no gremlins, a P250 would probably be the ideal "stash" gun for hard times; ideal in that it has an external hammer.

.

[deputyG23]

I just checked the SIG IOP price list and noticed that the P250 was not represented. The 2015 list had them on there for about $340 with three magazines. I had considered getting one myself...

[entropy]

I gifted one (P250) to my son as his first handgun. Being of the era that learned on a revolver, I thought it would instill good habits on him. (Yea, I'm mean like that.). Anyhow, after several classes together, getting his CCW with it, and having access to anything in my safe...he still carrys it. I purchased a full size .40 kit for it (it was originally a compact sized 9mm). Its a nice gun, abeit a bit off the current mainstream. I dare say that I would gladly take it in trade for something else in my safe. Wont be happening though.

[LockedBreech]

I gifted one (P250) to my son as his first handgun. Being of the era that learned on a revolver, I thought it would instill good habits on him. (Yea, I'm mean like that.). Anyhow, after several classes together, getting his CCW with it, and having access to anything in my safe...he still carrys it. I purchased a full size .40 kit for it (it was originally a compact sized 9mm). Its a nice gun, abeit a bit off the current mainstream. I dare say that I would gladly take it in trade for something else in my safe. Wont be happening though.

I'll say one thing...the first gun my dad gave me was a Beretta PX4 in .40. Not everyone's favorite caliber or model. But...having 20+ guns now, including my grandpa's Colt Python, the one my dad gave me would be the first I'd save it I could save only one. I'd decline a straight trade for a Wilson Supergrade.

That's what dads mean even if us sons don't say it often enough.


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[deputyG23]

I just checked the SIG IOP price list and noticed that the P250 was not represented. The 2015 list had them on there for about $340 with three magazines. I had considered getting one myself...

Quantico Tactical shows the P250 on their webpage for $343 with contrast sights and $383 with the Siglites. If Uncle Sugar doesn't pound me too badly on April 15th, this might just be my next handgun purchase..

[JR1572]

I have a feeling we're about to see the P250 become the PX4 of 2016.

JR1572

[Luke]

I have a feeling we're about to see the P250 become the PX4 of 2016.

JR1572

I just ordered 2 :) (1 FCU but 2 of everything else, full size & compact)

[JR1572]

I just ordered 2 :) (1 FCU but 2 of everything else, full size & compact)

You're much braver than me.

I love how pistols that get crap reviews a few years prior always seem to rise from ashes like a phoenix and become favorites here.

JR1572

[ffhounddog]

The reason why is we never know or the consumer is the guinia pig. I would glady give up my P229 sas for a SP2022 with a boat load of mags but then knowing me I would buy another P229.

Like I told my wife with these kids and now a new HVAC system, Glock 19s and HKs are it due to mags and support gear.

I like my new P2000 and it really makes me want to hit the range more VP9 for range/courses and P2000v3 for carry. My wfe was trying to find me a USPc 9 with safety for carry because of the kiddos.

[Luke]

You're much braver than me.

I love how pistols that get crap reviews a few years prior always seem to rise from ashes like a phoenix and become favorites here.

JR1572


I just want a hammer fired version of my competition gun (320). I've never even seen a 250 let alone dry fired one. Hopefully the trigger is as smooth as possible.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Luke,

The trigger on the last one I fingered at the fun store, maybe 2 months ago, was nice and smooth. Maybe just a smidge lighter than the classic SIG DA pull, but just as smooth. It may have been an exemplar, or the average. Just one point of reference.

If I had warmed up to the p320, I'd have bought that p250 in a heartbeat. But the 320 just wasn't for me.


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[HCM]

FYI Academy sports has SIG P250 in 22lr for $350ish. Now that .22 is actually available again it could make a fun trainer. I'm holding out for the threaded barrel version which should be out this year.

[psalms144.1]

I just want a hammer fired version of my competition gun (320). I've never even seen a 250 let alone dry fired one. Hopefully the trigger is as smooth as possible.Luke - the trigger on mine (a sample of one and VERY early example, at that) was spectacular. Somewhere in the 6-8 # range, and VERY smooth, no hitches, no wall, no nothing. Like a dream DA revolver trigger.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The trigger on mine is very smooth. At the time of purchase, Academy was advertising $389 w/ contrast sights. My LGS/range matched, with another $50-ish for night sights..

[Hizzie]

Interesting thread. Anyone have one of the small grip modules? Wondering how it compares to a S&W Shield.

[Luke]

I run a small on my 320 and it's bigger and more round than the shield.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Interesting thread. Anyone have one of the small grip modules? Wondering how it compares to a S&W Shield.


I run a small on my 320 and it's bigger and more round than the shield.

What Luke said. More like a Glock with a grip reduction.

[Tamara]

FWIW, my .380 P250C just finished 2,002 rounds today, having started back on November 24, with one failure to go completely into battery (#447) and one failure to fire (#1578) which fired on the second trigger pull. It had not been cleaned or lubricated in that time. Ammunition included a variety of imported and domestic FMJ, including some steel-cased stuff, as well as a smattering of various JHP loadings.

[11B10]

Luke,

The trigger on the last one I fingered at the fun store, maybe 2 months ago, was nice and smooth. Maybe just a smidge lighter than the classic SIG DA pull, but just as smooth. It may have been an exemplar, or the average. Just one point of reference.

If I had warmed up to the p320, I'd have bought that p250 in a heartbeat. But the 320 just wasn't for me.


What was it about the 320 that "just wasn't for you?" Just curious as I have a 320C in .45 ACP.

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[OnionsAndDragons]

Why wasn't the P320 for me?

Shape/size/thickness is near the top. It did not carry or conceal as well for me as comparable options. (Compared to PPQ, VP9, 9mm Glock, or the P30 or P2000) For info sake, I primarily carry a p2000 though I would consider carrying the. Glocks again when I have Gadgets. I just didn't like how it felt, how chunky it felt to me.

While the trigger was very nice, it did not fit my desires in a carry gun. I miss like the combo of very short travel and no trigger safety. Or really the very short travel in general on such a light trigger weight.

Magazine compatibility. My Glock 17 mags work in all my Glocks. My P30 mags work in all my HKs, my p226 mags work in all our SIGs currently. This factor was minor compared to the other two, but there all the same.

I think what Luke is doing makes a bunch of sense to me. If he is going to game with the P320, and also enjoys a nice DA revolver trigger, the P250 for carry with it is an awesome game plan.

Hope that sheds some light.


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[psalms144.1]

I went to the "local" LE distributor today (about 1:15 drive) with full intention of buying a P320C with some "found" money of mine. I fondled the three they had, and, eventually, walked out empty handed. Why?

1. Triggers. Three P320s with darned near sequential serial numbers. One had a trigger pull that felt like it was about 9#s, reset was longer than my Glocks, and felt "soft." Second trigger felt decent - about on par with an unpolished Glock Gen4 trigger, but had the wonky double reset. Third had a pull that felt lighter than any "-" connector Glock I've ever shot, and the reset was insanely short. So, one trigger that felt too heavy with a long reset, one with a decent trigger but a glitchy reset, and one trigger that was, IMHO, WAY too light to carry on duty or for SD.

2. Grips. I finger-banged a P320C 45 the other day, and was very pleasantly surprised by how "grippy" the stippling was. The texture on these pistols was much "slicker," and I could foresee having issues with it shooting bare handed.

3. Controls. All had the older style slide releases and take down levers, both of which I'd want to replace

4. NS. They all had the Sig standard NS, which, after shooting Ameriglos for several years now, just won't cut the mustard. I have no problem with "placeholder" sights, but I hate to pay $70 extra for NS I'm just going to knock off the slide.

I asked when they thought they might be getting some more updated P320s in, and they basically laughed at me. According to them, those were the first (and only) three P320Cs they'd gotten in, almost as soon as they were on the market, and they hadn't sold yet. That's not an indictment on the P320, it's just that NYPD doesn't authorize them, so there's not very much call for that model.

The good news is, I get to hold onto my money a while longer, and decide if I really need the P320 (as possible G19 replacement) or if I should just save up for the PX4 Compact, or a 9mm 1911, or...

[Luke]

I feel your pain on sucky triggers. I'm picking my 250 yo tomorrow and hoping she's a keeper! Will report back!

[Buckshot]

I have a feeling we're about to see the P250 become the PX4 of 2016.

JR1572


Then 2016 is gonna really suck! Sorry, but I'm just not willing to give Sig's biggest problem child a 2nd chance. I've heard too much direct experiences from buds at FAMS and the Secret Service (both from trigger pullers & gun plumbers) to forgive & forget. I have respect for Tamara's experience, but there are too many good guns available these days to go down this road to me for something I'd actually carry.

[Tamara]

I went to the "local" LE distributor today (about 1:15 drive) with full intention of buying a P320C with some "found" money of mine. I fondled the three they had, and, eventually, walked out empty handed. Why?

And more importantly, why in a thread titled "P250 DAO vs. P200 LEM"? ;)

[Tamara]

Then 2016 is gonna really suck! Sorry, but I'm just not willing to give Sig's biggest problem child a 2nd chance. I've heard too much direct experiences from buds at FAMS and the Secret Service (both from trigger pullers & gun plumbers) to forgive & forget. I have respect for Tamara's experience, but there are too many good guns available these days to go down this road to me for something I'd actually carry.

Should probably ditch Gen4 Glocks, then. And Gen3 .40 Glocks. And Gen2 Glock 19s. And Sig P-220s. And...

[Buckshot]

Should probably ditch Gen4 Glocks, then. And Gen3 .40 Glocks. And Gen2 Glock 19s. And Sig P-220s. And...

Touche'!

[HCM]

Then 2016 is gonna really suck! Sorry, but I'm just not willing to give Sig's biggest problem child a 2nd chance. I've heard too much direct experiences from buds at FAMS and the Secret Service (both from trigger pullers & gun plumbers) to forgive & forget. I have respect for Tamara's experience, but there are too many good guns available these days to go down this road to me for something I'd actually carry.

The guns tested for the FAMS and USSS were first gen P250's - as discussed, they had issues and were not ready for prime time. On top of those issues, they were chambered in .357 SIG. .357 SIG is hard on guns. The only polymer 357 guns I'm aware of which have successfully run in LE testing and service have been the SIG PRO and the HK USP compact.

[HCM]

And more importantly, why in a thread titled "P250 DAO vs. P200 LEM"? ;)

A strong argument could be made for the P-320 actually being the 3rd generation of the P250 aka the "they finally listened" edition.

[entropy]

Then 2016 is gonna really suck! Sorry, but I'm just not willing to give Sig's biggest problem child a 2nd chance. I've heard too much direct experiences from buds at FAMS and the Secret Service (both from trigger pullers & gun plumbers) to forgive & forget. I have respect for Tamara's experience, but there are too many good guns available these days to go down this road to me for something I'd actually carry.

Youre missing out then!

[JR1572]

I have a feeling we're about to see the P250 become the PX4 of 2016.

JR1572


You're much braver than me.

I love how pistols that get crap reviews a few years prior always seem to rise from ashes like a phoenix and become favorites here.

JR1572


Then 2016 is gonna really suck! Sorry, but I'm just not willing to give Sig's biggest problem child a 2nd chance. I've heard too much direct experiences from buds at FAMS and the Secret Service (both from trigger pullers & gun plumbers) to forgive & forget. I have respect for Tamara's experience, but there are too many good guns available these days to go down this road to me for something I'd actually carry.

I was being my typical smart-ass self.

I dislike the PX4 and still find it amusing that it was the PF darling of 2015. Just like the PX4, the P250 was looked down upon and now it's having a revival. It's like Groundhog Day with a new pistol. I just want to know what's going to be next and who will be the messiah to deliver the good news.

JR1572

[Tamara]

I dunno if the P250 is really a P-F.com kind of pistol. The true DA trigger offers a something of a safety cushion against woobie-checking and is pretty easy to shoot...for an actual DA trigger. But it makes it even harder to run fast than the LEM, which itself is not without controversy in these parts for being a hindrance at speed.

[JV_]

Does the current crop of P250s work reliably?

[Tamara]

Does the current crop of P250s work reliably?

Bruce Gray supposedly said they were GTG, quite some time before I got my hands on this test gun. I haven't heard many complaints, but I don't see a lot of high mileage ones, so... *shrug* :confused:

[Luke]

At the gun store. Have t left yet. Just fondled my 250 for the first time. Best trigger I've EVER felt of ANY DA gun. It is AMAZINGLY smooth and light. So insane.

[Tamara]

It has the best true DAO trigger I've messed with on a production gun, pseudo-"DAO" triggers like LEM and LDA not counted, of course. Mine weighed in at 7.25# when it was new.

[Luke]

So now under good lighting I've noticed the barrel hood was either polished or ran way dry. The slide doesn't look bad on the inside so I'm thinking polish. Gun is bone dry. Take down lever is crazy tight. Trigger is amazing. Recoil spring scared me. Only gun I've seen that you can field strip with the mag in. Pics to follow. I'm also going to attempt to make a AIWB holster.

[taadski]

So now under good lighting I've noticed the barrel hood was either polished or ran way dry. The slide doesn't look bad on the inside so I'm thinking polish. Gun is bone dry. Take down lever is crazy tight. Trigger is amazing. Recoil spring scared me. Only gun I've seen that you can field strip with the mag in. Pics to follow. I'm also going to attempt to make a AIWB holster.


The barrel hood thing used to be a Sig standard. Worry not.


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1468_zpsvryaqzsf.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/taadski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1468_zpsvryaqzsf.jpg.html)

I trust the P250 is not going to be giving your P320 a run for its money in the Bill Drill department. ;) But they can be shot very well and'll make a fine carry piece as long as you don't mind going back and forth trigger-wise. Congrats on the new gat!

[ffhounddog]

Just saw the LE price on these and they are crazy cheap.

Shot a full size P320 Tuesday night it was nice but only 10 rounds out of it.

[kjr_29]

I went to the "local" LE distributor today (about 1:15 drive) with full intention of buying a P320C with some "found" money of mine. I fondled the three they had, and, eventually, walked out empty handed. Why?

1. Triggers. Three P320s with darned near sequential serial numbers. One had a trigger pull that felt like it was about 9#s, reset was longer than my Glocks, and felt "soft." Second trigger felt decent - about on par with an unpolished Glock Gen4 trigger, but had the wonky double reset. Third had a pull that felt lighter than any "-" connector Glock I've ever shot, and the reset was insanely short. So, one trigger that felt too heavy with a long reset, one with a decent trigger but a glitchy reset, and one trigger that was, IMHO, WAY too light to carry on duty or for SD.

2. Grips. I finger-banged a P320C 45 the other day, and was very pleasantly surprised by how "grippy" the stippling was. The texture on these pistols was much "slicker," and I could foresee having issues with it shooting bare handed.

3. Controls. All had the older style slide releases and take down levers, both of which I'd want to replace

4. NS. They all had the Sig standard NS, which, after shooting Ameriglos for several years now, just won't cut the mustard. I have no problem with "placeholder" sights, but I hate to pay $70 extra for NS I'm just going to knock off the slide.

I asked when they thought they might be getting some more updated P320s in, and they basically laughed at me. According to them, those were the first (and only) three P320Cs they'd gotten in, almost as soon as they were on the market, and they hadn't sold yet. That's not an indictment on the P320, it's just that NYPD doesn't authorize them, so there's not very much call for that model.

The good news is, I get to hold onto my money a while longer, and decide if I really need the P320 (as possible G19 replacement) or if I should just save up for the PX4 Compact, or a 9mm 1911, or...

I just replaced the front sight w/ an Ameriglo #8 front (yellow outline like Trijicon HDs) and kept the rear Siglite NS. Like you, I use Ameriglo but liked the factory rears and how they fit the slide. Possible solution.


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[HCM]

I went to the "local" LE distributor today (about 1:15 drive) with full intention of buying a P320C with some "found" money of mine. I fondled the three they had, and, eventually, walked out empty handed. Why?

1. Triggers. Three P320s with darned near sequential serial numbers. One had a trigger pull that felt like it was about 9#s, reset was longer than my Glocks, and felt "soft." Second trigger felt decent - about on par with an unpolished Glock Gen4 trigger, but had the wonky double reset. Third had a pull that felt lighter than any "-" connector Glock I've ever shot, and the reset was insanely short. So, one trigger that felt too heavy with a long reset, one with a decent trigger but a glitchy reset, and one trigger that was, IMHO, WAY too light to carry on duty or for SD.

2. Grips. I finger-banged a P320C 45 the other day, and was very pleasantly surprised by how "grippy" the stippling was. The texture on these pistols was much "slicker," and I could foresee having issues with it shooting bare handed.

3. Controls. All had the older style slide releases and take down levers, both of which I'd want to replace

4. NS. They all had the Sig standard NS, which, after shooting Ameriglos for several years now, just won't cut the mustard. I have no problem with "placeholder" sights, but I hate to pay $70 extra for NS I'm just going to knock off the slide.

I asked when they thought they might be getting some more updated P320s in, and they basically laughed at me. According to them, those were the first (and only) three P320Cs they'd gotten in, almost as soon as they were on the market, and they hadn't sold yet. That's not an indictment on the P320, it's just that NYPD doesn't authorize them, so there's not very much call for that model.

The good news is, I get to hold onto my money a while longer, and decide if I really need the P320 (as possible G19 replacement) or if I should just save up for the PX4 Compact, or a 9mm 1911, or...

The NYPD doesn't authorize them but Nassau PD does.

I like my 320C but I'd wait and get one with the new style grip frame and controls. I hope the new grip frames are "grippier" its one of my few complaints. I've seen some variation in 320 triggers but no 9#. they do feel lighter than they actually weigh.

[Luke]

So my take down lever got STUCK. A set of Chanel locks couldnt even help. Found online this is common. All you need to do it out oil in the LEFT side of the take down lever.. So I put some in the RIGHT side and continued to get mad at it not working lol. My comprehension skills are lacking today. The little rubber oring was dry. Lubed it and all is well.


First shots out of the gun were 3 FAST's from concealment. It's definitely slower than the 320 but it is still nice. I actually like the sig night sights which is weird.

[DpdG]

My 320 occasionally has take down lever issues, but it t doesn't appear to be lube related. I jiggle the guide rod and all is better. For whatever reason there is no half moon cut on the barrel to keep the bell of the guide rod centered. Perhaps this is a trait shared with the 250?

[LSP972]

... pseudo-"DAO" triggers like LEM...

Thank you. There is so much utter bullshit circulating these days about what the LEM is, or isn't, I have just about stopped commenting on ANYTHING LEM-related. Trying to 'splain to Cletus that his HK LEM is NOT a double-action-only trigger is almost always a total exercise in futility. Funny how that little six-letter word makes all the difference in definitions…


.

[ReverendMeat]

It'd probably help if we could first all agree on definitions for "double action" and "single action" in the first place.

[Luke]

A double action only is a P250. A single action only with a mile trigger witha wall that you could use to retain a small pond with is a LEM. I thought everyone knew this?

[LSP972]

I rest my case.

.

[chiral]

Picked up a P250 compact over the weekend for a little under $400. I decided I did not want to go deep into a new platform and I already had some magazines and holsters for the P320. Dry fire is actually pretty nice. It's a very smooth trigger with a REALLY long reset. Sights are 3 dot style, but the rear site is not dovetailed in. I may sharpie them and try to pick up an ameriglo orange front sight.

I'm hoping to get a chance to hit the range soon, but with Easter coming up it may be tough for a few weeks. I may even try this pistol at the HiTS First Responder pistol class in April. Very excited!

[Chuck Whitlock]

I actually like the sig night sights which is weird.


Picked up a P250 compact over the weekend for a little under $400. ......... Sights are 3 dot style, but the rear site is not dovetailed in. I may sharpie them and try to pick up an ameriglo orange front sight.

I used a red Sharpie on the rear lamps, and replaced the front with an Ameriglo orange CAP.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I may even try this pistol at the HiTS First Responder pistol class in April. Very excited!

I'd be very interested in the outcome of this.

[jriles91]

I may even try this pistol at the HiTS First Responder pistol class in April. Very excited!

Also interested in this. I may be attending the August class if I can get the funds together.

Although I wouldn't have much of a choice as the P250 is my only pistol.

[chiral]

Done deal! I'm no journalism major but I'll try and write a review of the p250 compact at first responder pistol. I'll also be bringing a p320 compact and a glock 19 and 17 (just in case).

I'm not a good shooter and I'm not being humble. I really really suck :). I mention this because if my shooting looks bad when I report back its because of me and not the pistol.


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[Tamara]

It'd probably help if we could first all agree on definitions for "double action" and "single action" in the first place.

The way I look at it is this: If the trigger doesn't have a restrike, it's not double action, no matter what the marketing department says. Triggers like the LEM or DAK are where the definition really gets strained, since they do have a restrike, but under normal operation the shooter would never feel the full weight of the trigger pull since the cycling of the slide is used to partially pre-load the mechanism in some way. This differs from Smith's DAO Third Gen guns, the LDA or its ancestor, the SFS, in that they have no restrike capability and are only "Double Action" in the marketing derpartment.

[ReverendMeat]

That's been more or less my definition too, but that would make guns like, say, the Ruger LC9 "single action" which is even sillier than calling a LEM "double action."

There's no winning and my new philosophy is to simply avoid using the terms altogether unless I'm referring to revolvers or.. uh.. "crunchentickers."

[jc000]

Thank you. There is so much utter bullshit circulating these days about what the LEM is, or isn't, I have just about stopped commenting on ANYTHING LEM-related. Trying to 'splain to Cletus that his HK LEM is NOT a double-action-only trigger is almost always a total exercise in futility. Funny how that little six-letter word makes all the difference in definitions…


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Sorry, I realize I'm probably stepping into it, but if the trigger press both cocks and releases the hammer, doesn't that mean it's DA? I'm genuinely trying to understand how lem isn't DAO.

[Luke]

Sorry, I realize I'm probably stepping into it, but if the trigger press both cocks and releases the hammer, doesn't that mean it's DA? I'm genuinely trying to understand how lem isn't DAO.

Trigger doesn't cock it. Do a restrike on a LEM and prepare yourself for the suck.

[ReverendMeat]

Sorry, I realize I'm probably stepping into it, but if the trigger press both cocks and releases the hammer, doesn't that mean it's DA? I'm genuinely trying to understand how lem isn't DAO.

Define "cock".

[entropy]

I know this is a BAAAD analogy. But think of it as a Glock with a hammer.

[Argus]

Define "cock".

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160326/b2ede62419de6f4a8c08c5cddda193dc.jpg

[jc000]

Define "cock".

One way I would define "cock" would be to position the hammer back so it can fall forward engaging the firing mechanism.

The second strike capability on my LEM pistol seems to do the same? Just heavier?

[LSP972]

Sorry, I realize I'm probably stepping into it...

Indeed… but I'll try again anyway.;)

Keep in mind that much of this- in terms of "definitions"- is more perception than anything. However, a few things just… are… so take this as the ramblings of an old guy who came of age in a simpler time.

First, definitions that "are"… Single means ONE. Double means TWO. Period.

Going by that, a single action pistol works only ONE way. Matters not if it is a revolver or JMB derivative semi-auto or striker-fired combat tupperware… the only way it will fire is if the sear is set- via cocking the hammer (manually, or by slide movement) or being reset by the slide cycling, such as a Glock- and trigger is then pulled.

A double action pistol can be fired TWO ways. Either the hammer/striker is manually set as above… or one can simply pull the trigger through. The example here that is most easily understood is a DA revolver. With the hammer at rest, you can shoot it by either thumb-cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger, or just pulling the trigger through its stroke. The mechanism cocks and releases the hammer. Ditto what is now referred to here as TDA- Traditional Double Action- pistols. Think Sig Classic P-series, Ruger P-series, the first and second (and some third) generation S&W pistols of the 70s-80s-90s, etc.

Here's where the murk begins. Over the years, the term "single action" morphed into describing the thumb-cocking part; "double action" morphed into describing the trigger-cocking part. So when the trigger-cocking-only guns appeared, it was natural for nimrods and clueless administrators to refer to them as DAO… Double Action Only. Which, of course, is wrong. The pistols only work ONE way- via trigger cocking. But I heard more than one admin type refer to the 5946 as "a 15 shot revolver".

S&W actually started this bullshit with their trigger-cocking 3rd generation pistols. You cannot blame them for it; they were giving the LE community what same had asked for… a "safer" pistol to issue to cops. Of course, "safer" meant "less prone to negligent discharge", but that's another whole topic best avoided here. The point is, certain terms like DAO stuck, and today are considered correct. And we're back to perception. Double Action Only, going by the true definition of single vs double action, is a self-contradicting term. Unfortunately, it has become totally entrenched in common lexicon. Those who don't know take it as gospel, which brings us to the current state of affairs.

Hopefully, you can now see why referring to the LEM as a DAO is not correct. It can actually trigger-cock, but only if one has a dud cartridge, or does not cycle the slide between dry-fire trigger pulls. The slide cycling actually pre-cocks the hammer and sets the sear; which produces a reasonably crisp "single action type" pull, with a looonnnggg (and almost effortless) take-up before getting to the sear release point… the so-called "wall". But if you pull the trigger and the slide doesn't cycle, the trigger pull is now a horrendously hard stroke all the way back, because the hammer must be cocked against the full power of the main spring. This, of course, is what nimrods refer to as the "second strike capability"; which is right up there with "bore axis" on the list of Shit You DON'T Need To Worry About. BTW, this horrendous pull is what the original HK V7 (which they described as DAO, of course) was like. It was HK's attempt to get on the then-current LE service pistol bandwagon, because trigger-cocking-only was hot and what America's cops wanted. I think they sold, like, ten of these horrible things, and finally snapped that something was wrong. Back to the drawing board, where the great Helmut Weddle pulled yet another rabbit out of his hat and saved the day, so to speak, with the LEM. I'm told it was the last major design he produced before retiring. OTOH, S&W spent a TON of money getting their system right, prior to release, and the result was not bad at all, in terms of trigger pull. But I digress…

Anyway, that's pretty much it. The term DAO is simply wrong, but most folks take it as holy writ, so I got tired of arguing about it. The fact that I lived (and worked) through the semi-auto revolution in the LE community probably has a lot to do with my impatience. But I'm astute enough to realize that, while the term is technically wrong, does it really matter???

Of course it doesn't; to the unwashed masses. Where it matters is to folks who are interested in learning the true differences between this pistol or that one, and applying that knowledge to improve their performance. But the incredible variety of available actions today just adds to the bewilderment. Such as the Sig DAK and its bizarre double reset. Or the difference between a Kahr and a Glock; both striker-fired, both utterly simple with very few parts, yet totally different trigger pulls.

As I age, I find myself getting more deeply into my curmudgeonly ways, and therefore am coming across as intolerant at times. That is not intentional (most times, anyway ;) ), and in fact the current lexicon of guns, while sometimes at odds with what I learned the hard way- and therefore is somewhat offensive to me- does a pretty good job of getting most points across.

So, if I occasionally seem like a gruff old codger, out of touch with modern times… its because I am.:cool:

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[ReverendMeat]

Okay, so LSP972, by your definition, a S&W 642 is "single action"?

More evidence that the terms have lost all meaning and should be avoided.

[ReverendMeat]

One way I would define "cock" would be to position the hammer back so it can fall forward engaging the firing mechanism.

The second strike capability on my LEM pistol seems to do the same? Just heavier?

One way I might define "cock" would be to impart the potential energy required to fire the round into the system. Compressing the mainspring, USUALLY performed by positioning the hammer or striker, would suit this definition. But in the case of the LEM the energy is stored in the mainspring regardless of hammer position.

[LSP972]

Okay, so LSP972, by your definition, a S&W 642 is "single action"?

More evidence that the terms have lost all meaning and should be avoided.

Agreed. But how can one avoid terms when trying to describe something? BTW, its not "my" definition. The words single and double are defined by a dictionary as one and two. Seeing as there is no Webster's definition of DAO… we find ourselves in the current quagmire.

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[LSP972]

But in the case of the LEM the energy is stored in the mainspring regardless of hammer position.

Well… no. Cycling the slide compresses the mainspring. Once that stored energy is released, the mainspring remains at rest/hammer down, until the slide is cycled (pre-cocking the hammer) or the trigger is pulled, which moves the hammer/compresses the mainspring.

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[ReverendMeat]

The problem is, nobody can agree on what the terms actually mean and using the terms leads to an inaccurate, oversimplified view of what's actually happening. I say "your" definition because I've never heard it before, the much more common understanding is that "single" refers to releasing the hammer with one trigger pull (one action) and "double" refers to cocking and then releasing the hammer with one trigger pull (two actions). DAO would imply that there is no method to cock the hammer by means other than pulling the trigger. Re: LEM, as I said, the energy is stored in the mainspring once the action is cycled, thus could be considered "cocked" even when the hammer is down. My whole point here is that the wheels come off when using these terms to describe systems that didn't exist when the terms were invented and their continued usage leads to misunderstandings and inaccuracy.

Hell in this thread alone we've got at least four different definitions going on.

[Dave J]

Trigger doesn't cock it. Do a restrike on a LEM and prepare yourself for the suck.

It's really not that bad. No worse than the DA pulls of a lot of other guns on the market, IMHO.

[Luke]

It's really not that bad. No worse than the DA pulls of a lot of other guns on the market, IMHO.

I shoot the P250, so I guess I'm just used to a really sexy DA pull.



:)

[LSP972]

DAO would imply that there is no method to cock the hammer by means other than pulling the trigger.

And that is exactly what was meant by it when the term was coined after the appearance of the trigger-cocking-only 3rd gen S&W pistols.

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[LSP972]

My whole point here is that the wheels come off when using these terms to describe systems that didn't exist when the terms were invented and their continued usage leads to misunderstandings and inaccuracy.


Yes. Exactly the point I was trying to make. Especially regarding the show-starter term DAO, which, when coined, was… wrong.;)

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