Instructor says to disregard sights; use "triangulation" for "combat shooting"

[PNWTO]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

[JV_]

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.I'm pretty sure I would have left. I'm not willing to be some random guy's dryfire target.

[Totem Polar]

.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.
Now *this* sounds about right for higher ed...
:D

[nycnoob]

"triangulation"



Does that mean, fire first and then adjust the aim point depending on where the misses go?
That is quite an amazing word. Well, I hope you use a "binary search" that would be,
you should bracket your target with gun fire so that you know the target is in the interval
then aim for the middle of the interval. Its a very efficient way to "search for your target" but
I think in court they will call it "reckless endangerment".

[LSP972]

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

What more verification do you need??? The guy is a tool.

Pointing guns at each other so you'll get used to it? Right. Forget about the sights? You bet.:rolleyes:

.

[PNWTO]

"triangulation"



Does that mean, fire first and then adjust the aim point depending on where the misses go?
That is quite an amazing word. Well, I hope you use a "binary search" that would be,
you should bracket your target with gun fire so that you know the target is in the interval
then aim for the middle of the interval. Its a very efficient way to "search for your target" but
I think in court they will call it "reckless endangerment".

As a former 0811 I just imagined yelling a call for fire at my G19... thank you. :)

[Peally]

Instructor is a 'tard.

I need to become an instructor. If all these boobs can do it I can too. Free money!

[GardoneVT]

"triangulation"



Does that mean, fire first and then adjust the aim point depending on where the misses go?
That is quite an amazing word. Well, I hope you use a "binary search" that would be,
you should bracket your target with gun fire so that you know the target is in the interval
then aim for the middle of the interval. Its a very efficient way to "search for your target" but
I think in court they will call it "reckless endangerment".

Unless the bad guy goes old school and uses HIS sights. In which case court won't be a problem.

[BehindBlueI's]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

http://f.tqn.com/y/netforbeginners/1/W/d/a/Tarna-clownshoes.jpg

I sometimes get why people are so hesitant to pay for professional instruction. Wasting money on clown shoes bullshit like this.

[PNWTO]

http://f.tqn.com/y/netforbeginners/1/W/d/a/Tarna-clownshoes.jpg

I sometimes get why people are so hesitant to pay for professional instruction. Wasting money on clown shoes bullshit like this.

Right? Thankfully there are no expenses on my end... I just am at a loss in regards as how to proceed. I guess I'll just be a good student and let my abilities speak for themselves, but I'm not doing another round of "dryfire at each other".

[scw2]

Right? Thankfully there are no expenses on my end... I just am at a loss in regards as how to proceed. I guess I'll just be a good student and let my abilities speak for themselves, but I'm not doing another round of "dryfire at each other".

I'm pretty sure this was what Rob Pincus had us try to do while we were at PEP3 (the point shooting, not aiming guns at each other). I just did the drills using my sights but played around with the level of speed and how much sight alignment I needed for the distances we were shooting at. Maybe you could do the same, just use the sights in all the drills. The dry firing at students though seems like an accident waiting to happen...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I can see the lawyers circling the school like the ravens in Game of Thrones. There would be a world of experts for the plaintiffs when a shot at speed without sights sails over the shoulder of the shooter into a kid. Interesting nuance - if you know better from your training, do you speak up at the lawsuit.

[El Cid]

Can you please name the "instructor" so we know not to take his glasses or recommend them to anyone else?

[PNWTO]

Can you please name the "instructor" so we know not to take his glasses or recommend them to anyone else?

For PERSEC and my institution I will not at this time. PM me in a month or so after this training series in wrapped up and I'll happily pass everything along.

[TAZ]

If it's required training complete it and move on. If it's an optional self improvement type of thing: run do not walk away from me clown shoes.

[PNWTO]

If it's required training complete it and move on. If it's an optional self improvement type of thing: run do not walk away from me clown shoes.

Exactly. I know which boxes I need to check; I'll just shut up, smile, nod, and see my sights.

[El Cid]

Exactly. I know which boxes I need to check; I'll just shut up, smile, nod, and see my sights.

I wonder if the "instructor" gets false feedback that way? He tells students not to use sights. Students don't follow his instructions and use sights - getting good hits on target. "Instructor" sees targets with good groups and assumes his crap ideas are awesome. Lol!

[HCM]

Point shooting out to 20 yards is bad but the dry fire at each other thing borders on criminal. There is no way I am letting random people dry fire live weapons at me. If this clown is the one your institution chose to instruct your active shooter response program, I would run, not walk to avoid having anything to do with it.

If you are looking for a good model for training arm to teachers and staff members at schools, I would recommend contacting the Texas Department of Public Safety and getting a copy of their school Marshal training program.

[Rosco Benson]

Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed."

Use the force, Luke.


Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.


Words fail. What an ignorant douche. When his stupidity causes a death or injury, it'll reflect badly on the entire firearms community. Exile him to Doofusland.

Rosco

[DacoRoman]

Right? Thankfully there are no expenses on my end... I just am at a loss in regards as how to proceed. I guess I'll just be a good student and let my abilities speak for themselves, but I'm not doing another round of "dryfire at each other".

Yes, and just say that you are triangulating through your sights.

I thought the whole aiming thing had been figured out years ago. I guess this chap will have a few things to teach us all with this triangulation business. We'll have to forget the whole indexed shooting using the sights and seeing what we need to see, of the sights and target, thing.

[Sal Picante]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/PF/ants.jpg

Derp derp derp - I'd leave...

I can index and hit targets out to ~5 yards alright - past that, I need sights...

[HCM]

Right? Thankfully there are no expenses on my end... I just am at a loss in regards as how to proceed. I guess I'll just be a good student and let my abilities speak for themselves, but I'm not doing another round of "dryfire at each other".

My concern with the dry fire thing leads me to wonder how good this guy's safety protocols will be during the live fire portion of your training? I'd be even more concerned about his safety protocols when y'all start doing force on force with SIMS or airsoft.

If you are not doing any force on force training then the program is a joke.

[PNWTO]

My concern with the dry fire thing leads me to wonder how good this guy's safety protocols will be during the live fire portion of your training? I'd be even more concerned about his safety protocols when y'all start doing force on force with SIMS or airsoft.

If you are not doing any force on force training then the program is a joke.

Does a duffel of Sirt guns count? :/

[Ntexwheels]

Thinking about the instructor and his technique brings the word asshat to mind!

[byrdland]

For PERSEC and my institution I will not at this time. PM me in a month or so after this training series in wrapped up and I'll happily pass everything along.

Could it be Brownie? Does this guy do Inquartata?

[ubervic]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

Just think about the negative impact to students who do not yet know enough to realize this instructor is a clown.

[Cookie Monster]

In what universe do I want to get comfortable having a gun pointed at me?

[Drang]

For PERSEC and my institution I will not {name the instructor} at this time. PM me in a month or so after this training series in wrapped up and I'll happily pass everything along.
Understood.
But...
...Is he affiliated with an organization that teaches shooting skills for money, or is he an individual who sold his program to an ignorant paper shuffler? Who may happen to be a cousin of Somebody...?

Because, as a fellow resident of Washington, I think I want to know too.

[Mr_White]

Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards.

Barf.


Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us.

Double barf.

[Jim Watson]

What a ripoff.
Us real deal point shooting triangular coaches have guns with no sights so you can't cheat.

Another advanced (zany) technique, heard at an IDPA match as learned from a Real Life Instructor:
"You MUST use a Glock 17 because:
First, you MUST double tap, two shots are always needed, and the 17 gives you more double taps than a smaller gun or larger caliber.
Second, since you will NOT be able to line up the sights with the necessary speed, you will be directing your fire by looking down one edge of the slide and the square Glock slide is best for that."

I don't think I ever saw those guys again.

[Al T.]

we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us

I am very pleased that this is a felony in black letter law here in South Carolina. BTW, there is another fairly well known trainer that had his students form a circular firing squad so as to get a sight picture on each other. SWAT magazine published a picture of him doing exactly that.

[HCM]

Does a duffel of Sirt guns count? :/

SIRTs are fine. If he has SIRTs why is he having you dry fire live weapons at each other ?

The big concern with any SIMS/Airsoft/Laser Force on Force is ensuring you create and more importantly maintain a "sterile" area with no live / lethal weapons introduced. EVERYONE get searched going in and EVERYONE gets searched again to come back in if they leave for any reason.

[DacoRoman]

What a ripoff.
Us real deal point shooting triangular coaches have guns with no sights so you can't cheat.

Another advanced (zany) technique, heard at an IDPA match as learned from a Real Life Instructor:
"You MUST use a Glock 17 because:
First, you MUST double tap, two shots are always needed, and the 17 gives you more double taps than a smaller gun or larger caliber.
Second, since you will NOT be able to line up the sights with the necessary speed, you will be directing your fire by looking down one edge of the slide and the square Glock slide is best for that."

I don't think I ever saw those guys again.

Haha! Wow!

I guess all you slow speed high drag types just cramped their style!

[HopetonBrown]

There's a local instructor who was a former reserve patrol officer in my area who has a cadre of nut huggers. He frequently points his gun at himself to demo things, with the gun empty and the slide locked back. I thought about showing up to one of his classes with a blue gun as a present.

[Mr_White]

there's a local instructor who was a former reserve patrol officer in my area who has a cadre of nut huggers. He frequently points his gun at himself to demo things, with the gun empty and the slide locked back. I thought about showing up to one of his classes with a blue gun as a present.

but what is the point of teh blue gun if he has already verified checked shown clear the regular gun!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!?

[Mr_White]

Hey I posted that in ALL CAPS, where did they go?

[HopetonBrown]

but what is the point of teh blue gun if he has already verified checked shown clear the regular gun!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!?

I actually wanted to start a thread asking thoughts about flagging oneself/students with blue guns/SIRTS and what the P-F inteligentisa thought.

[Stephanie B]

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

I might have poitely asked if he had a mill file handy.

When he'd inevitably ask the "wuffo" question, I'd smile and say: "It's gonna hurt a lot less coming out if you would first file off the front sight."

[Stephanie B]

http://f.tqn.com/y/netforbeginners/1/W/d/a/Tarna-clownshoes.jpg

I sometimes get why people are so hesitant to pay for professional instruction. Wasting money on clown shoes bullshit like this.

Exactly correct. At least for me.

[Drang]

Apparently in that movie with Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster, Ms Foster received advice that she should practice dry fire in front of a mirror.
I learned this when I walked into my platoon office and found two soldiers practicing dry fire at each other.
I put a stop to that, informed them that under no circumstances would we be pointing any firearms that didn't have blank fire adapters attached at each other. This is when I learned about this movie. It was pointed out that one of the NCOs (!!!) was heading to her third attempt at making Marksman with the M9, and it was thought that dry fire with a target (!!!) would help, but we had no mirror...
I cleared the pistol, dragged an easel with butcher block paper on it over, cleared the pistol again, and dropped a sharp #2 pencil down the barrel.
"Practice until all the dots made by the pencil are on the same spot."*
I made it up on the spot (so to speak) but she qualified, and, of course, Sarge's rep as being some kind of omniscient genius was cemented. :cool:



*Yes, pulling the trigger would make the pencil move forward. We had to "tune" her position so she was close enough to the paper for it to work, the pencil would not fly out, just jump forward. We drew a small circle on the paper where she said her POA was.

[PNWTO]

I actually wanted to start a thread asking thoughts about flagging oneself/students with blue guns/SIRTS and what the P-F inteligentisa thought.

That would be interesting.

[Luke]

I actually wanted to start a thread asking thoughts about flagging oneself/students with blue guns/SIRTS and what the P-F inteligentisa thought.

I'm sure this will get its own thread as they all do.. But here's my .03


I say it's bad. I don't want you to point a blue gun, red gun, SIRT, or real gun at me. I would be very disappointed with a instructor pointing a fake gun at me, he points a real one at me and I'm gone. The only time this is ok with me is simunition training. And even then I didn't like it because pain lol.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm sure this will get its own thread as they all do.. But here's my .03


I say it's bad. I don't want you to point a blue gun, red gun, SIRT, or real gun at me. I would be very disappointed with a instructor pointing a fake gun at me, he points a real one at me and I'm gone. The only time this is ok with me is simunition training. And even then I didn't like it because pain lol.
Have you done sims before? They don't even hurt... until the evo is over.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How do you do retention training / disarming without a fake gun ending up pointed at some one? I don't like being shot with sims, paintball or airsoft either - but the pain is part of the game. Laughing as I cry?

I got truly hosed close up by a full auto airsoft gun on a t-shirt. Broke the skin all over my back. Good lesson - made for interesting bruises and discussion in the academic locker room. Wife was mad at me.

I took a class where we had some training on using an empty gun as an impact weapon. So I guess I don't get it. I agree that real guns are too dangerous.

[Luke]

Have you done sims before? They don't even hurt... until the evo is over.

Yes. We had to wear thin tight clothing. The point was to make it sting so you wouldnt want to get shot. I'm weird about pain though. I absolutely hate to get static shocked but I've broken bones completely in half and not shed a tear or complain, but get me on a trampoline with my kids and you better not touch daddy.

[HopetonBrown]

Yes. We had to wear thin tight clothing.

Sounds kinky.

[BehindBlueI's]

Blue guns aren't guns. They need their own safety protocols, mostly to insure it is a replica and not a real gun. With those protocols in place and adhered to, then I am fine with flagging as long as it furthers the training and isn't just being lax.

[HCM]

I actually wanted to start a thread asking thoughts about flagging oneself/students with blue guns/SIRTS and what the P-F inteligentisa thought.

We have definitely had this discussion.

First question is do you consider a blue gun or SIRT "a gun" or a "gun like object"?

My take / short version:

An instructor getting sloppy and flagging himself or using his students as a "downrange / safe direction" simply because he is using a "gun like object" is no Bueno. Especially ar a live fire range where the possibility of forgetting whether one has a blue gun or a real gun is always present.

HOWEVER, there is a reason we have "gun like objects" and there are times we intentionally need to demo things or practice things which involve pointing "Gun like objects" at people. My caveat: 1) I prefer to do this in settings other than a live fire range and 2) I should be able to articulate why I'm pointing a "gun like object" at people. Some examples:

- When demonstrating proper use of cover, having the students go "down range" are see how much / how little of me they can see has specific training value
- training to take / hold people at gun point
- tactics training
- Weapons retention training

[HCM]

Yes. We had to wear thin tight clothing. The point was to make it sting so you wouldnt want to get shot.

UnderArmour is not Armor !

SIMs aren't too bad, UTM, especially the rifle version hurt. IME, UTM rifle marking rounds will break skin and can crater plexi-glass. They are no joke.

[Kyle Reese]

Find another instructor. Anyone who advocates point shooting in this day and age is beneath contempt, and unworthy of your hard earned training dollars.

[Mr_White]

Other people are taking the words right out of my mouth. Bottom line is that inert training replicas exist specifically to allow demonstrations and training that have educational value, but would be unsafe with a real gun, no matter how unloaded we thought it were.

I've heard it said by some instructors, that they 'treat blue guns exactly like they are real guns.' Then they demonstrate use of cover, pointing the blue gun at the students, in order to show them how much or little is exposed when using cover certain ways. When instructors say that, what they really mean is that they don't want people engaging in disorganized, impromptu activity or play with the blue guns. That's an important distinction.

Blue is also not a great color for inert training replicas, because in some lighting conditions it can look pretty close to black. Red, orange, and yellow are better.

In handling blue guns in a live fire part of class, it is critical for the instructor to be very sure which item they are about to handle, so they don't pull out a real gun at a bad time in a demo. That is something that must be carefully managed by the instructor. And when taking out a blue gun for a demonstration, it's important to announce to everyone that's what it is and to show them, so everyone doesn't have a very uncomfortable start when OMG THE INSTRUCTOR IS POINTING A GUN AT HIM...oh wait, blue gun.

Students, especially new ones, are often uncomfortable with blue guns pointed at them, and at pointing blue guns at others. It's important to explain to the students why they exist, what they can expect to see the instructor doing with them, and why.

The SIRT, or anything equipped with a laser, is a bit of a finer point to the discussion. I avoid pointing lasers at students because they are anxious about catching the laser in the eye. Far cry from the danger posed by a real gun, however.

[SLG]

OP,

Is it the Israeli from the Romper room thread? He liked to have students point guns at each other as well.

[psalms144.1]

There are still some folks out there who hold to the thought that you won't see your sights in combat. I'm not saying I agree with them, just that I've been exposed to this school of training more than once. I will say that I once attended a week long "fight/shoot" school where three days were spent just shooting. The instructors MANDATED "indexed" fire for all shooting, and would make sometimes uncomfortable corrections to those who were shooting "too slow" by using sights. At the end of the third day, we could all hit discrete targets at moderate ranges (inside 20 yards) "index" shooting using rifle or handgun. We blew through 3,000 rounds each to get to that point, of course.

Within two weeks of return from the training, way less than half the guys on my team could hit a 3x5 by "index" shooting at 7 yards. Within a month, nobody could.

Index shooting DOES work - it's simply attained through the act of literally thousands and thousands of rounds of continuous practice using nothing but index shooting, until you're actually firing by "muscle memory." Problem is, very few of us have unlimited shooting time or budgets; and the "muscle memory" goes out the door when bad things happen - like having to switch to support hand, etc...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

I'm just going to lay out my basic train of thought as I was reading this...

Hmm...mmm-hmm...mmm-hmm...sounds dumb...sounds dumb...mmm-hmm...sounds legit...yes you are...very much so...nope, that's dumb...the powers that be are idiots...and HOLYFUCKINGSHITGETTHEFUCKOUTOFTHERERIGHTNOW

I can do training I don't agree with, without freaking out.

I don't let people point guns at me and I don't want to be anywhere near a situation where people are instructed to use me as a dry fire target. That is so far over the line that it would make a Canadian punch somebody.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm sure this will get its own thread as they all do.. But here's my .03


I say it's bad. I don't want you to point a blue gun, red gun, SIRT, or real gun at me. I would be very disappointed with a instructor pointing a fake gun at me, he points a real one at me and I'm gone. The only time this is ok with me is simunition training. And even then I didn't like it because pain lol.

Well, the opposite problem of trying to reform things so that we can train and demonstrate safely is that some folks will take advances in safe, professional training methodology, and make hunks of plastic into scary, deadly things. The use of training aids is exactly that....to aid training. The point of what the instructor was doing in the original post actually has some value when executed properly. Reports I got back from doing something similar with my people was that it was actually very helpful for them in real world shootings. We turned live guns into training tools back then and did extensive work to be as safe as possible, but today...I would be using a dedicated non-firearm training aid. There are safe practices, and then there is creation of an environment where training and education is stifled so as not to offend the overly sensitive.

Wayne and I have a no firearms demo in the classroom rule. We will not subject students to having a functional firearm deployed for training in that environment. We extensively use blue guns and SIRT pistols to demonstrate anytime we can substitute them for a functional firearm. We can better demonstrate many actions with the students facing us. It allows students to have a perspective and view that is not safe with a function firearm. That is what training tools are for. Do they need to have protocols in place for safe usage...of course. One of the reasons we try to use multiple instructors is to check each other.

Training tools have allowed us great leeway in training. We can do more relevant training and we can allow students to have a much fuller understanding of specific topics in total safety in a situation where everyone involved knows with total confidence that no one will be hurt. Do some folks feel uncomfortable with a training dummy pointed at them...sure. Often times the training point is to make them uncomfortable, especially during our extensive firearms safety lecture when we are emphasizing situations to avoid, yet are common. Most folks have never had a firearm pointed at them for real during a violent encounter. One way we can work to get them through that in order to react is to use various training tools in smart, effective, and safe manner with professionally delivered instruction. Do folks want the first time they try a technique to save there life under pressure with a firearm pointed at them to literally be the very first time because they are so risk averse as the use of a hunk of plastic shaped like a gun is unacceptable. I would contend that simmunition type guns are far more dangerous with a much greater chance for a tragic outcome. I am a factory certified SIMS Law Enforcement instructor.....I would venture many using them are not and are not following established TTP's for their use.

So....if the thought of an instructor using a blue gun to demo and that the hunk of plastic that is not, cannot, and will not ever be a functional firearm that can injure you, is pointed at you or covers you, and the instructor has shown you that it is a hunk of plastic will disappoint you.....do not sign up for our classes, as you will be disappointed. If you want to be in an environment where the instructors have enough time and experience to know that they are not immune to mistakes and thus use hunks of plastic to demonstrate things whenever possible and allow students to really see multiple views of certain actions to enhance learning and better ground training points...that would be us.

[Dagga Boy]

There are still some folks out there who hold to the thought that you won't see your sights in combat. I'm not saying I agree with them, just that I've been exposed to this school of training more than once. I will say that I once attended a week long "fight/shoot" school where three days were spent just shooting. The instructors MANDATED "indexed" fire for all shooting, and would make sometimes uncomfortable corrections to those who were shooting "too slow" by using sights. At the end of the third day, we could all hit discrete targets at moderate ranges (inside 20 yards) "index" shooting using rifle or handgun. We blew through 3,000 rounds each to get to that point, of course.

Within two weeks of return from the training, way less than half the guys on my team could hit a 3x5 by "index" shooting at 7 yards. Within a month, nobody could.

Index shooting DOES work - it's simply attained through the act of literally thousands and thousands of rounds of continuous practice using nothing but index shooting, until you're actually firing by "muscle memory." Problem is, very few of us have unlimited shooting time or budgets; and the "muscle memory" goes out the door when bad things happen - like having to switch to support hand, etc...


My folks who went to a school like that found the same thing. Once back to a regular training schedule, they could not maintain the skill. They also found that the body positioning was often not possible in full gear and in a rapidly changing event where all the parties are moving.

[nycnoob]

Nyeti, whats your opinion about using blue guns and practicing drawing on other students. I do think that there is some benefits
to seeing the motion you are trying to practice (mirror neurons and all that), though some people might believe that this creates bad habits.

[nwhpfan]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

How does he shoot?

If he's hitting the A zone in less than 1.5 from the Serpa at 20 yards he might be worth listening too...

[Drang]

Understood.
But...
...Is he affiliated with an organization that teaches shooting skills for money, or is he an individual who sold his program to an ignorant paper shuffler? Who may happen to be a cousin of Somebody...?

Because, as a fellow resident of Washington, I think I want to know too.

Also, whether or not there was any nepotism involved, what selection criteria went into the decision to use this guy, and were any of y tax dollars involved?

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, whats your opinion about using blue guns and practicing drawing on other students. I do think that there is some benefits
to seeing the motion you are trying to practice (mirror neurons and all that), though some people might believe that this creates bad habits.

If done with solid safety protocols in place...it could have benefits. The greatest benefit for most is to see what it looks like when someone is accessing a firearm or weapon against you and the physical "tells" that it is happening. I can assure you that learning it on the street with real bad guys and real guns is very risky with little room for error.

[Luke]

Those are very good points nyeti, in my mind I was thinking just being careless and not so much the good training like you were referring too.

[Dagga Boy]

Those are very good points nyeti, in my mind I was thinking just being careless and not so much the good training like you were referring too.

I will concede that folks will find way to screw up just about anything and make it moronic. With that said,I tell our students a blue gun is almost required these days if you really want to do serious training and do it safely. There is no reason to practice clearing your home with a live firearm anymore. You can get tons of safe reps on lots of things with blue guns. I also really like incorporating them into martial arts based combative training where a lot is developed from feel. Easiest way to learn to feel someone accessing a weapon is to actually roll around with folks accessing training weapons. Something that should never be done with a functional firearm, yet you can get tons of reps in with a training tool.

[JAD]

I love my blue guns for dry practice of things like seated draws, especially in the car, and especially when I was trying to figure out whether AIWB was a lot better in a car environment.

[olstyn]

HOLYFUCKINGSHITGETTHEFUCKOUTOFTHERERIGHTNOW

I imagine that was the reaction of most of the folks reading this thread. Something similar sure went through my head. Much like you, that is not something I'd be willing to be involved with, and in the interest of saving others from the stupidity, I'd like to think I wouldn't be shy with my opinion of the situation.

[Tamara]

Exactly correct. At least for me.

So, because some teachers are idiots, you elect to not go to school at all? That makes sense. Not.

[Trooper224]

OP, could you smell what brand of douche the instructor was using?

[DMF13]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)

So we have a few weekends of training in the pipeline, this past weekend was numero uno. Instructor has a LE background, with some time in SWAT. Right off the bat he was saying we will not be "focusing on the sights" and instead using "triangulation and body-alignment to land upper-thoracic shots at speed." He says this technique will work out the 20 yards. Being a proper student, I held my incredulity. I don't consider myself of any shooting prowess, but have a few classes under my belt, a Defoor class this summer, and a few years of SSP and Production, and some marksmanship instructor BS in the Marines.

Am I right in my disbelief? Especially since this training is accompanying the legal burden of school protection? Has anyone encountered this before? He has the ears of the powers-that-are so I don't think there is anything I can say.

Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.I see from your other link that the instructor claims federal LE experience. I can tell having been a fed for well over a decade, NONE of what you described is currently being taught by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC), nor has any of that been taught by FLETC in the time I've been a fed. It’s worth noting, the most recent course I completed at FLETC the Firearms Instructor Training Program (FITP). FLETC hosts the training for the vast majority of fed LE agencies (with FBI, DEA, USPIS, and Army CID being notable exceptions that do their own schools).

Further, I've worked for three different fed agencies, and have done training with several other fed agencies, and again none of that is currently being taught by any of those fed agencies, once the agents are away from FLETC. I’ve also done some firearms training with a few state and local agencies, and none are teaching any of that either.

I don’t know where this guy got his ideas on firearms training, but it’s not from the feds.

[DMF13]

Also, on the topic of using real guns to dry fire at living humans, I'll point out people have died during such "training."

Which is why blue/red guns, and other non-firing training aids (SIRT or the Glock 22P) were developed.

A few LEOs killed using live guns in that kind of training:

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20959-probation-officer-tiffany-danielle-bishop

http://www.odmp.org/officer/21731-lieutenant-carlos-r-lozada-vergara

http://www.odmp.org/officer/22352-director-of-investigations-john-ballard-gorman

http://www.odmp.org/officer/15227-trooper-mark-paul-wagner

http://www.odmp.org/officer/9342-officer-john-henry-miller

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20530-officer-dan-d-de-kraai

Unfortunately, that's just a small representation of those that have died from that type of activity.

[Tamara]

Once upon a time, I learned stuff using my actual Glock with a piece of bright orange yarn dangling out the mag well and muzzle.

There's no need to do that anymore, not in a world where Amazon will deliver a Ring's blue gun to your doorstep for twenty-something bucks and free two-day Prime shipping.

[BJXDS]

I am sure this does not apply to most here, but this is the danger to people that have little or no experience with firearms and want to seek training. They Don't Know What They Don't Know. Always follow one very simple rule, NEVER point a REAL gun at anything you don't intend to put a hole in, NOT FUCKING EVER!

I agree with 99% of what has been stated, the ONLY thing I can add is a BIG WTF!

[xmanhockey7]

Other thread with some context. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19484-Armed-Faculty-Staff-training-for-Higher-Ed-what-should-be-covered-or-asked-about)
Another thing he did is after he verified all our weapons were clear, is suggest that during dry-fire and presentation practice, we aim at other students so we all get used to pointing guns at others and having guns pointed at us... I just aimed at the wall.

How about 100 different ways of hell no?


PS: Also... scout's honor, he was using a Serpa.

I am not surprised.

[Stephanie B]

So, because some teachers are idiots, you elect to not go to school at all? That makes sense. Not.

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course is more of a gamble than I care to make.

Here's the thing: I've looked at a couple of places and the faculty is made up of a bunch of ex- Green Berets, Rangers and SEAL Teamers. I'm not about to go jump out of helicopter with a M-4 at oh-dark-thirty and hunt bad guys. Or they say something like "combat handgun, Glock preferred, no revolvers"-- Nope, nope and nope.

I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course is more of a gamble than I care to make.

Here's the thing: I've looked at a couple of places and the faculty is made up of a bunch of ex- Green Berets, Rangers and SEAL Teamers. I'm not about to go jump out of helicopter with a M-4 at oh-dark-thirty and hunt bad guys. Or they say something like "combat handgun, Glock preferred, no revolvers"-- Nope, nope and nope.

I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.
Then don't take those particular classes.

[SAWBONES]

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course is more of a gamble than I care to make.
...
I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

I certainly agree.
Vetting your instructor and his curriculum in advance, in order to be as certain as reasonably possible that the training is both appropriate and valuable to you and your particular circumstances and needs is simply sensible.

[HCM]

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course is more of a gamble than I care to make.

Here's the thing: I've looked at a couple of places and the faculty is made up of a bunch of ex- Green Berets, Rangers and SEAL Teamers. I'm not about to go jump out of helicopter with a M-4 at oh-dark-thirty and hunt bad guys. Or they say something like "combat handgun, Glock preferred, no revolvers"-- Nope, nope and nope.

I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

That is why research and reviews / AAR's of the instructor and the classes are so valuable.

Based on what you wrote above, our own HITS (NYETI and Wayne Dobbs) and Rangemaster (Tom and Lynn Givens) would likely be a good fit. I can also highly recommend Op Spec Training (Bruce Gray and Jerry Jones).

An open mind also helps, sometimes the testosterone and Broski-ness is simply marketing. A couple of the former Delta guys are actually very good instructors, diagnosticians and coaches.

[SLG]

I agree with all sides of the posts above. Unfortunately, the training industry is full of people who are not good trainers. There is little that frustrates me more than wasting my time.

[voodoo_man]

I agree with all sides of the posts above. Unfortunately, the training industry is full of people who are not good trainers. There is little that frustrates me more than wasting my time.

Yep, and that area seems to be growing. Anyone can be a firearms instructor now a days, criminals or ND specialists.

[Tamara]

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course...

So don't do an "unknown course". There are ample class reviews here at p-f.com and elsewhere to read.


Here's the thing: I've looked at a couple of places and the faculty is made up of a bunch of ex- Green Berets, Rangers and SEAL Teamers. I'm not about to go jump out of helicopter with a M-4 at oh-dark-thirty and hunt bad guys. Or they say something like "combat handgun, Glock preferred, no revolvers"-- Nope, nope and nope.

Oh, cheese us kee riced almighty, not the old "Straw Tactical Training" excuse again. Not every class is Jimmy Yeager's High Risk Overseas Contractor For Printer Repairmen course.

I've taken three-hundred-some-odd hours of gun school at this point and never had to rappel out of a helicopter with a knife in my teeth or do push-ups in the mud while someone yelled at me and fired an AK over my head. Further, nobody has ever told me I couldn't bring a revolver to a class. (Unless it was not, you know, a handgun class.)


I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

Entertain, for the moment, the possibility that you are deep in the throes of Dunning-Kruger, here. There are people within easy commuting distance of you who would be happy to let you take a class with a revolver and still teach you useful skills.

[Dagga Boy]

I don't know about you, but the idea of taking an entire day of my copious free time and dropping a few hundred dollars on an unknown course is more of a gamble than I care to make.

Here's the thing: I've looked at a couple of places and the faculty is made up of a bunch of ex- Green Berets, Rangers and SEAL Teamers. I'm not about to go jump out of helicopter with a M-4 at oh-dark-thirty and hunt bad guys. Or they say something like "combat handgun, Glock preferred, no revolvers"-- Nope, nope and nope.

I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

Save up for a shooting vacation in Dallas. No SWAT rolls, AARP instructors who love revolvers, and likely have worse knees than you...;). Bonus....great BBQ and a famous place with platter size family style Chicken Fried steak nearby.

[voodoo_man]

Save up for a shooting vacation in Dallas. No SWAT rolls, AARP instructors who love revolvers, and likely have worse knees than you...;). Bonus....great BBQ and a famous place with platter size family style Chicken Fried steak nearby.

But will there be whiskey?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess we are lucky in our part of TX. KRtraining does a great job and brings in great instructors. No commandos. Now Aaron Marcos is teaching classes also that are quite practical for the AARP set like me.

We have a vibrant and friendly match community. There may be commandos around here but easily avoided.

[Stephanie B]

Entertain, for the moment, the possibility that you are deep in the throes of Dunning-Kruger, here.

Thanks to Google, I don't have to ask if they're a supermarket chain.

But I think I've got a pretty good grasp on what I can physically do. To paraphrase someone, a gal's got to know her limitations.

(I'm also aware of Tanner Syndrome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upZB5VlbC6o).)

[Tamara]

But I think I've got a pretty good grasp on what I can physically do. To paraphrase someone, a gal's got to know her limitations.

You may have a good grasp on what you can do, but you apparently have no idea on what you would be asked to do in quality firearms training classes, some of which I have taken with fellow students who were paraplegics, who were in much worse shape than my gimped-up, steel-in-my-shin-and-screws-in-my-ankle self.

Argue for your limitations, and they shall become yours.

[Tamara]

Save up for a shooting vacation in Dallas. No SWAT rolls, AARP instructors who love revolvers, and likely have worse knees than you...;). Bonus....great BBQ and a famous place with platter size family style Chicken Fried steak nearby.

Where's the signup sheet? :confused:

[TGS]

You may have a good grasp on what you can do, but you apparently have no idea on what you would be asked to do in quality firearms training classes, some of which I have taken with fellow students who were paraplegics, who were in much worse shape than my gimped-up, steel-in-my-shin-and-screws-in-my-ankle self.

Argue for your limitations, and they shall become yours.

Ditto.

I've never been in a class where the whole anti-tactical straw man argument actually had any material relevance.

And that's including the majority of pistol training I've done in the .mil and LE.

One of my LE firearms instructors actually had no legs. He taught from a god damned wheelchair.

Zero excuses are valid.

[Dagga Boy]

But will there be whiskey?

We call Serious Student the "Den mother". You will usually want for nothing in a class.....including Whiskey and Cigars.

[Dagga Boy]

Where's the signup sheet? :confused:

https://www.regonline.com/Register/Checkin.aspx?EventID=1797271

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm well into AARP eligibility, my knees are shot and most of the time, I have a wheelgun, because its a "random crime resolution tool" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19502-Revolver-why&p=416022&viewfull=1#post416022). And I shoot better with them.

I'm not opposed to taking a class. But traveling a goodly distance to learn stuff that is, on the face of it, of marginal utility? No, thanks.

To be frank, I'd agree. I'm not about to drive cross country and waste money on things that don't apply to me. That said, there's a lot of instructors who have a 'bring what you carry and I'll make you better with it" attitude and who teach things that are relevant. Many of these classes may not even be firearms oriented. A decent advanced first aid class (or basic trauma life support or WTF it's called today), a reading body language course, or a legal brief on the laws and outcomes of various cases in your jurisdiction, for example. You say you're not opposed to taking a class, so I sincerely hope you look into it. There's some revolver specific training around here, but I'm in no position to tell you what's available in your area.

[HCM]

There's some revolver specific training around here, but I'm in no position to tell you what's available in your area.

Sand Bur Gun ranch ?

[BehindBlueI's]

Sand Bur Gun ranch ?

Yup. Dennis gave me a lot of poo for being the only Ruger guy there...but he had to admit the WC GP100 was pretty dang nice "for a Ruger". :D

[Tamara]

I'm not about to drive cross country and waste money on things that don't apply to me.

Nobody suggested anyone do that.

Also, Google is your friend! :)

[JAD]

Based on what you wrote above, our own HITS (NYETI and Wayne Dobbs) and Rangemaster (Tom and Lynn Givens) would likely be a good fit. I can also highly recommend Op Spec Training (Bruce Gray and Jerry Jones).

An open mind also helps, sometimes the testosterone and Broski-ness is simply marketing. A couple of the former Delta guys are actually very good instructors, diagnosticians and coaches.

Your first quoted paragraph makes the second paragraph pretty unnecessary.

[Tamara]

https://www.regonline.com/Register/Checkin.aspx?EventID=1797271

Shit. I have a standing annual event on Columbus Day weekend. :(

[Totem Polar]

I, however, do not. Time to save pennies and preserve time...