Why are 38 specials so popular in 686 / .357 guns?

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Hi,

I'm getting involved in target shooting and very new to handguns. I'm also a very curious person. :)

Something I have noticed a lot of is people using 38 special ammunition in 357 revolvers such as the S&W 686.

I was just wondering if there's any reason why target shooters seem to want to avoid using 357 shells instead? It seems most target shooters load their own ammunition, so I'm guessing that the same powder, measurement and projectiles could be used on both cases. Is there certain properties of 38 specials that is more beneficial for target / accuracy, or any reason 38 special shells are so much more preferred?

Thanks

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[LHS]

They're cheaper and don't beat up either shooter or gun like full house magnums do.

[olstyn]

In some cases, there may be a detonation risk using a .38 spl load in the longer .357 case, but absent that possibility, which would only be present with a few powders, it theoretically should work fine. You may get lower velocity than you would out of the same powder charge in a .38 case because of the lower peak pressure with the larger case, much like what people see when loading .38 super vs 9mm major. It's also possible that dense/small powders may encounter problems with the position of the powder in the case being a factor. (It's possible to have all the powder at the front of the case and have it not ignite as well when the primer goes off as it would if it was at the back, for example.) Presuming you select a powder that doesn't present either of those problems, though, it should be feasible/reasonable to use a .38 recipe in a .357 case. I'd guess that medium burn speed, "fluffy" powders that provide good case fill would be your best bets.

The other factor, of course, is that .357 cases are probably more expensive and less commonly available as once-fired brass than .38 cases. Given that the only significant negative to using .38s in a .357 gun is that you should do a thorough cleaning before returning to .357s in order to clear out crud/residue buildup at the front end of the cylinder, it's probably not worth the effort for most people to source .357 cases and redo the load workup on an otherwise known-good .38 load.

[BehindBlueI's]

Common wisdom is they are slightly less accurate in a .357, but I'm not good enough to see any difference myself.

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In some cases, there may be a detonation risk using a .38 spl load in the longer .357 case, but absent that possibility, which would only be present with a few powders, it theoretically should work fine.

Ahh - that makes sense. What about .38 S&W cases then?

ie: If spacing is an issue, wouldn't .38 S&W cases be more popular instead? If we don't need that much powder, would it make more sense to just use the shorter S&W .38's instead of having all that empty space? (Or are these more expensive than 38 special cases as well, or are they not compatible in 686's, etc) and require a specific gun?

From my limited perspective it seems as though .38's are used because there's a much greater range in 38/357 handguns than 9mm loads when it comes to revolvers, but I was wondering why 38 special cases are used over other options. I'm guessing it comes down to availability and cost?

Cheers

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[Hambo]

.38 S&W is larger in diameter than .38 Special.

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.38 S&W is larger in diameter than .38 Special.

Thanks Hambo - I knew there had to be a reason! So in effect 38 special cases are the best fit for target loads in revolvers. 9mm might be a good option as well, but there are tonnes more 38/357 revolvers than 9mm ones out there which is why they must be so popular. Learning all the time! Thank you.

[BehindBlueI's]

Ahh - that makes sense. What about .38 S&W cases then?

ie: If spacing is an issue, wouldn't .38 S&W cases be more popular instead? If we don't need that much powder, would it make more sense to just use the shorter S&W .38's instead of having all that empty space? (Or are these more expensive than 38 special cases as well, or are they not compatible in 686's, etc) and require a specific gun?

From my limited perspective it seems as though .38's are used because there's a much greater range in 38/357 handguns than 9mm loads when it comes to revolvers, but I was wondering why 38 special cases are used over other options. I'm guessing it comes down to availability and cost?

Cheers

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Hambo nailed it. A .38 S&W is generally .361" diameter. A .38 Special is .357 or .358. It's counter-intuitive because of changes to the ammunition but not changes to the name over the years. Heeled bullet designs, where the bullet is shaped like a mushroom and the "stem" goes inside the brass and the "head" is the same size as the brass was bigger than most modern calibers where the bullet is silo shaped and fits in the brass without a "stem". The names made the transition, even when the diameters did not.

http://www.corbins.com/heelbase.htm explains it and can show you what I'm talking about if you're interested. There's a ton of .38 caliber cartridges from "back in the day".

[TiroFijo]

In some cases, there may be a detonation risk using a .38 spl load in the longer .357 case, but absent that possibility, which would only be present with a few powders, it theoretically should work fine.

Max SAAMI lenght for the loaded 357 mag is 1.59", for the 38 spl is 1.55". This equals ZERO in practical terms regarding empty case volumen, powder alignment/positon, and detonation...

All the loads for 38 spl that work well in 38 spl cases normally work equally well in 357 cases. And if you shoot with 38 spl cases in 357 mag chambers the accuracy is great as well.

Clean more often and take care of the residue ahead of the 38 spl cae mouth, yes. Worry about anything else, NO.

[olstyn]

Max SAAMI lenght for the loaded 357 mag is 1.59", for the 38 spl is 1.55".

I thought the difference was larger than that. I stand corrected.

[byrdland]

I no longer use 38 specials in my .357 magnum revolvers. Yes, they're cheaper, but for me, the point of impact is different and there is the crud build-up in the chambers. If I were to target shoot with 38 specials, I would use a .38 special revolver.

[TiroFijo]

Normally the 38 spl impacts noticeably higher than the 357 mag loads, POI moves about 2"-3.5" vertical at 25 yds, horizontal POI is about the same. With an adjustable sight revolver the clicks are very repeatable if you want to adjust.

The reason for shooting 38 spl loads is not cost, it is because both shooter and gun strain less. If you hand a 686 loaded with 38 spl to a new shooter, the recoil is very mild.

[Jeep]

I no longer use 38 specials in my .357 magnum revolvers . . . there is the crud build-up in the chambers.

Very true, but isn't that what portable electric drills and .40 caliber brushes designed for?

[TiroFijo]

I never had to use more than a few passes with manual bronze brush.

[byrdland]

Also, shooting .357 is more fun for me. I prefer the pow over the pop.

[jh9]

ie: If spacing is an issue, wouldn't .38 S&W cases be more popular instead? If we don't need that much powder, would it make more sense to just use the shorter S&W .38's instead of having all that empty space? (Or are these more expensive than 38 special cases as well, or are they not compatible in 686's, etc) and require a specific gun?

From my limited perspective it seems as though .38's are used because there's a much greater range in 38/357 handguns than 9mm loads when it comes to revolvers, but I was wondering why 38 special cases are used over other options. I'm guessing it comes down to availability and cost?

Cheers

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.38 Short Colt is popular in USPSA Revolver division. Case capacity and load data make it essentially a rimmed 9mm. I'm using TK Custom clips and Starline brass. Common combination AFAIK. Outside USPSA, everybody is still making .38 spl because they've always made .38 spl. And people are buying .38spl because they've always bought .38spl.

Accuracy isn't a problem on steel or even relatively distant USPSA targets. I'm sure benching the gun or bullseye COFs would tell a difference, but only that. If the mechanical accuracy of the gun and ammo really is deteriorated, it isn't noticeable outside those edge cases.

Never noticed an issue with leaded cylinders either. It all brushes out. Or most of it does. Eventually.

What's the point of having a stainless revolver if you can't leave it covered in lead and carbon most of the time? :p

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.38 Short Colt is popular in USPSA Revolver division.

Thanks for that - these look like a good alternative - especially for low power factor loads where I don't want much powder in the case! And if leading isn't an issue with the shooting (only the cleaning) I can live with that.

[Malamute]

There are some interesting discussions on the castboolit forum about very light loading 38 short Colt cases. Some like them for beginning shooters or their grandchildren to shoot, some just enjoy the really light loads. Somebody likened them to 38 cal CB caps. The direction some are going is loading lighter until they start sticking bullets in the barrel, then bumping the charge back up to a reliable level of bullet exit.

Sounds interesting to me.

[TiroFijo]

Regarding empty space/poder orientation etc. some of the most accurate target 38 spl loads, used in competition to set records, use small doses of fast powders like bullseye/Red Dot, and leave more tan 75% empty space in the 38 spl case, which was designed for black powder.

[Velo Dog]

A possible reason for preferring special brass over magnum cases could be due to internal taper. Full wadcutter bullets are best loaded in specifically designed 38 Special brass which have a shortened internal taper. This reduces case bulging, creates even case tension, and prevents damage to hollow base wadcutter skirts. Even if standard bullets and brass are used, the thinner case wall of the Special brass should allow the case to properly expand and seal the chamber when lighter loads are fired.

[noylj]

Detonation? Really? Maybe in very carefully controlled lab conditions where the powder is separated to each end. Norma supposedly did it ONCE and reported that it simply was not something that could happen without planning.
Why do people do a lot of things? 'Cause they consider it easier or better.
.357Mag make rounds just as accurate as .38 Spl at the same velocities, but not at the same charge weights. However, if you aren't a reloader, buying .38 Spl ammo is simply easier. Are there even are any .38 spl equivalent factory .357 Mag loads.
I do all my shooting in .357 Mag revolvers using .357 Mag cases, as I don't like cleaning each chamber of the "soot ring" left with .38 Spl cases in the longer chamber. Just as easy as loading .38 Spl.