Semi-Auto, why?

[SLG]

Because they are not the guns of the 80's. Modern auto's are extremely reliable, durable, shootable, fast to reload, fast to fix malfunctions, ergonomic and relatively effective.

The old saying that auto's are more rugged but revolvers are more tolerant of neglect, is mostly not true today. (Not taking a swipe at Chuck, though I did watch the video that Nyeti posted just now) I have seen many, many instances of autos being carried in exposed or concealed holsters, and when they get hauled out once a year for quals, or once every few years, they have all worked just fine for all the rounds in the gun and on the person.

Someone else said that revolvers make better clubs. Not in my experience. I have spent weeks upon weeks hitting people full force with guns, and the autos all came out of it just fine. The revolvers I've seen and tried (not nearly as many as the autos) did not survive as nicely and in many cases, were unshootable afterwards. Same from dropping them on the ground. Usually both types are fine, but I have seen more cylinders seriously damaged and no autos damaged at all. Real world dropping, not testing. I know there are examples of autos failing in these circumstances, but they are extremely rare occurrences.

I could keep going on, but I won't. I love revolvers, and will continue to use them a lot. Let's just not forget how superior autos are these days for serious, professional use. I know no one here has forgotten that, but I felt like typing it anyway. Sue me:-)

[BN]

More bullets. That is all.

[Trooper224]

Well, duh. :p

[pblanc]

Semi-automatic pistols are generally easier to conceal because they lack a thick cylinder. In a self-defense scenario most shots are going to be taken double action. Most folks have more difficulty remaining on-target in double action. I know DA shooting is something that can be mastered (at least by some) with practice, but follow-up shots with a double action revolver are almost certainly going to be slower than with a DA/SA, SA, or striker-fired pistol due to the longer reset.

A big advantage to auto-loaders in my view is the better choice of self-defense calibers. I know that there are revolvers chambered for pistol calibers and I know about .327 Magnum and .45 long Colt, but those aren't what I would consider mainstream. With the common .357 Magnum revolver one has the choice of 38 Special, 38 Special +P, and various .357 Magnum loads. I feel that 38 Special is a bit puny for SD. 38 Special +P is better, but probably not quite as good as the better 9mm Para loads. .357 Magnum is very potent but somewhat difficult for some people (including me) to control well in rapid strings. On the other hand, 9mm Para, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are all quite effective.

[Lon]

Wait. Are you telling me my J frame 357 magnum scandium five shot revolver isn't the best self defense gun? The gun shop guys told me it was just what I needed. That or a judge, or was it the governor?

[Chuck Haggard]

I totally agree. I've seen more jammed up wheelguns on the line during police quals than I ever saw problems with semi-autos. The revolvers also tend to need tools to fix.

[Wheeler]

Semi-automatic pistols are generally easier to conceal because they lack a thick cylinder. In a self-defense scenario most shots are going to be taken double action. Most folks have more difficulty remaining on-target in double action. I know DA shooting is something that can be mastered (at least by some) with practice, but follow-up shots with a double action revolver are almost certainly going to be slower than with a DA/SA, SA, or striker-fired pistol due to the longer reset.

A big advantage to auto-loaders in my view is the better choice of self-defense calibers. I know that there are revolvers chambered for pistol calibers and I know about .327 Magnum and .45 long Colt, but those aren't what I would consider mainstream. With the common .357 Magnum revolver one has the choice of 38 Special, 38 Special +P, and various .357 Magnum loads. I feel that 38 Special is a bit puny for SD. 38 Special +P is better, but probably not quite as good as the better 9mm Para loads. .357 Magnum is very potent but somewhat difficult for some people (including me) to control well in rapid strings. On the other hand, 9mm Para, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are all quite effective.

There's not a single caliber you've mentioned that isn't chambered in a revolver. As far as the .38 goes, folks have been killing each other with it since 1899. Speaking of which, is the goal to kill or to stop an aggressor?

[Nephrology]

Speaking of which, is the goal to kill or to stop an aggressor?

Not to encourage a derail, but the means by which the latter is accomplished is mechanistically dependent on the cartridge's ability to accomplish the former.

.38 Spl +P is probably fine but I do generally agree that it seems that there has been more active development in defensive cartridges chambered in 9mm, .40, and .45 than in the rimmed service calibers.

[Wheeler]

Not to encourage a derail, but the means by which the latter is accomplished is mechanistically dependent on the cartridge's ability to accomplish the former.

.38 Spl +P is probably fine but I do generally agree that it seems that there has been more active development in defensive cartridges chambered in 9mm, .40, and .45 than in the rimmed service calibers.

Is it? Claude Werner has a wealth of data that disagrees with that assumption.

[breakingtime91]

I like revolvers and I agree that most non dedicated gun owners in america would be better off with one. After that, if your dedicated and focused on just defense (big bore revolvers are cool for hunting) there isn't much a revolver offers over a 9mm. With that said, if you like revolvers carry them, but don't act like others are wrong when they bring up their weaknesses.

[Nephrology]

Is it? Claude Werner has a wealth of data that disagrees with that assumption.

What do you mean? I am speaking purely about the number/quality of of new (last 15-20 years) commercial self defense offerings, no comment on their collective performance. They're heavy bullets going fast enough, I have 0 doubts that they hurt real bad. I do carry a J frame after all..

[Peally]

Because if I win overall at IDPA or USPSA using a revolver I know that the BBQ lunch was tainted meat and everyone died and I need to call poison control ASAP :cool:

[Wheeler]

What do you mean? I am speaking purely about the number/quality of of new (last 15-20 years) commercial self defense offerings, no comment on their collective performance. They're heavy bullets going fast enough, I have 0 doubts that they hurt real bad. I do carry a J frame after all..

Let me try this a different way. Excluding law enforcement and military usage and concentrating solely on the usage of private citizens. Lethality of the ammo used is not nearly as relevant when trying to stop an aggressor as many folks in the community seem to believe based on Claude's data. To further expand on that point, there is a huge number of incidents in which an attack was stopped with .22's through .380's. All of which are considered suboptimal in terms of wound ballistics. If we can agree on those conclusions, I suggest that carrying the latest, greatest death ray isn't as important as many folks believe.

Am I suggesting that we all go back to ball ammo? Not in the slightest. What I am suggesting is that carrying a lot of ammo in a small package in case we need to expend thirty or more rounds is a statistical improbability based on the statistical unlikelihood that we'll need to use our firearms in self defense.

In the end, we're going to carry what makes us feel comfortable. I wouldn't dream of suggesting a revolver as a primary self defense weapon to most folks since most folks just don't have the desire to practice enough to be proficient.

[BehindBlueI's]

To further expand on that point, there is a huge number of incidents in which an attack was stopped with .22's through .380's.

I'd add a surprising number are stopped by misses or mere presentation of a handgun pointing at them. Obviously wound ballistics are irrelevant in both cases. I'm kind of up in the air on if noise/flash matters to psych stops or not. I suspect it does, but can't figure a way to track it.

The differences come in to play, IMO, when you face a dedicated attacker. The ex-husband who plans to kill himself anyone after he murders his wife, for example, vs the street yout that can simply pick someone else to mug if he can't get your wallet. Humans are wired to value avoiding loss over achieving gain, and it's sort of common sense if you think about it. Losing the opportunity to take this guy's wallet just means I'll have to wait for another mark. Taking a bullet means getting killed, getting caught, and it'll probably hurt. The risk vs reward is way off. Dedicated attackers, weather it's because they are on a mission (like the ex-husband), chemically altered, whatever, they aren't thinking in those terms and that's why they are so dangerous.

[Dagga Boy]

Well, duh. :p

That was my thought. The auto wins the tactical side. The revolver wins the administrative side. Which is a priority.

As far as hitting folks with guns as clubs. I can speak with a level of authority on this. There is a guy running around SoCal who has a perfect imprint of the front of a Glock 17 scarred into his temple which I am responsible for. Essentially driving the gun into his head to the bone. It solved the immediate problem, but didn't end the incident by a long shot. N frame Smiths...those ended resistance upon contact everytime....and I saw it often. Now dropping guns....autos do win that one. All the weight the seems to make big frame revolvers painful for humans when struck, seem to also hurt the revolver badly when dropped on things that don't give like humans do.

[Mr_White]

For me, these are a couple reasons why:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOcYLFx8hq0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjfl4t4BAbQ

[Dagga Boy]

That autoloader is slowing you down. I can only imagine with Mr. White's twitch reflexes and not hindered by waiting on the gun to run, how fast he could be...;)

http://youtu.be/dIihnDUP5CE

[farscott]

That was my thought. The auto wins the tactical side. The revolver wins the administrative side. Which is a priority.

I would like to explore the thinking behind this, specifically the administrative side. In my mind (disclosure: not in LE, so I miss stuff obvious to LEOs and their bosses), the autoloader can be a better choice from an administrative view. So I do not understand how the revolver wins for admin unless it is less rounds and looks less threatening. Or is the issue some autos lead to more NDs? With LEM are both equal from admin?

[JHC]

I would like to explore the thinking behind this, specifically the administrative side. In my mind (disclosure: not in LE, so I miss stuff obvious to LEOs and their bosses), the autoloader can be a better choice from an administrative view. So I do not understand how the revolver wins for admin unless it is less rounds and looks less threatening. Or is the issue some autos lead to more NDs? With LEM are both equal from admin?

Here is a for example. You are active Mil living on post. Your state CCW license is invalid on post but not only can you not carry on post at all, but you cannot even transport a loaded pistol. That is when leaving post your carry pistol must be unloaded and locked in a container. Ammunition may NOT be loaded a magazine.

So you get off post and pull over to go through all the admin handling to get loaded up. Upon returning to post - reverse the process. Not unload and show clear but strip all the mags, unload, lock it up.

I think the revolver is a bit more streamlined in this regard.

[Robinson]

I don't regret switching from revolvers to a Commander for my carry gun, though the switch wasn't due to inferiority of the wheelgun. The pistol holds more ammunition without greater size, has proven reliable, and allows me to maintain my curmudgeonly ways. And I'm pretty sure a steel 1911 makes just as good a club as a revolver.

[BehindBlueI's]

I would like to explore the thinking behind this, specifically the administrative side. In my mind (disclosure: not in LE, so I miss stuff obvious to LEOs and their bosses), the autoloader can be a better choice from an administrative view. So I do not understand how the revolver wins for admin unless it is less rounds and looks less threatening. Or is the issue some autos lead to more NDs? With LEM are both equal from admin?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean administrative like "the brass".

Administrative handling, ie loading/unloading, holstering up for the day, etc.

[serialsolver]

Magazines and that's it. Magazines are the reason I carry a semi auto.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[farscott]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean administrative like "the brass".

Administrative handling, ie loading/unloading, holstering up for the day, etc.

If that is what he meant (and I agree it is likely), then I see why the revolver wins. In my mind, the biggest issue with an auto would be the repeated chambering of the same round due to setback concerns. I assume that it not an issue with revolvers. I guess the other issue is that one can fire a round with the magazine out of the gun unlike a revolver which has to be functionally disassembled to unload.

[BehindBlueI's]

If that is what he meant (and I agree it is likely), then I see why the revolver wins. In my mind, the biggest issue with an auto would be the repeated chambering of the same round due to setback concerns. I assume that it not an issue with revolvers. I guess the other issue is that one can fire a round with the magazine out of the gun unlike a revolver which has to be functionally disassembled to unload.

Most of the ADs I see involve one the following:

1) Firing the weapon with the magazine dropped but a round still in the chamber
2) Manipulating the slide with fingers in front of the muzzle and a finger on the other hand inside the trigger guard
3) Holstering/pocketing/waist-banding with finger still in the trigger guard

I used to see more pocket carry bangs with something else carried in the pocket, but that seems to have faded away. That was a common issue with the set carrying Ravens and Lorcins in their pocket, and those guns seem to have faded from favor (maybe they are all broken by now?).

Anyway. Training issues, yes. Most gun toters don't get training, though. #1 and #2 are not issues with a revolver, and #3 has more margin of error with a longer, heavier trigger pull.

[David S.]

Having taken a few first timers to the range (against Nyeti's better judgement ;) ) recently, I've noticed a couple things.

- For many, semi-autos are complicated machines whose function are not obvious. Safe loading, unloading, checking and press checking, for instance, all require a functional understanding of what's going on "under the hood" well enough to get the order of operation right, every time. This is especially true with the wide variety of controls available on various models. Manual safeties, grip safeties, decockers, slide catch lever,and mag releases all control unseen actions within the inner workings of the gun.

In Semi-Autos, the rounds are always hidden from view so I can't just look at a gun and determine it's status. They also requires significant hand strength and dexterity to manipulate the slide.

On the other hand, a DA revolver is a DA revolver: big or small, Smith or Ruger. They have simple controls and they all work the same. The basic operation of the cylinder, cylinder catch, and ejector rod are visible and almost obvious. I can determine the status just by looking at the gun.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean administrative like "the brass".

Administrative handling, ie loading/unloading, holstering up for the day, etc.

Administrative handling is what I was talking about. It is how most guns are handled a majority of the time.


Most of the ADs I see involve one the following:

1) Firing the weapon with the magazine dropped but a round still in the chamber
2) Manipulating the slide with fingers in front of the muzzle and a finger on the other hand inside the trigger guard
3) Holstering/pocketing/waist-banding with finger still in the trigger guard

I used to see more pocket carry bangs with something else carried in the pocket, but that seems to have faded away. That was a common issue with the set carrying Ravens and Lorcins in their pocket, and those guns seem to have faded from favor (maybe they are all broken by now?).

Anyway. Training issues, yes. Most gun toters don't get training, though. #1 and #2 are not issues with a revolver, and #3 has more margin of error with a longer, heavier trigger pull.

Yep. Here is my issue with many people's choices in firearms. This does not likely cover a vast majority of this forum.

Question...can you do a loaded chamber verification properly? Can you do it easily by feel in low light? Do you discard ammunition that has been loaded into a chamber and unloaded more than a couple of times? Can you manipulate a pistol with your trigger finger locked in register position (really watch people doing this. I was heavily disturbed the last match I was at with how many unload and show clears were done with a trigger finger curled in or near the trigger guard)? Can you easily determine weapon status? Can you EASILY load and unload a semi auto pistol. Do you regularly load and unload a pistol....and back to also discarding ammunition when you do. Do you always holster with a finger in hard register. Do you always un-holster with a finger in register (we found out recently that even experts with some holsters do not).
Start looking at the above and see if maybe there are a bunch of folks using unsafe practices with semi-auto pistols. Do those unsafe practices outweigh the needs for higher capacity and easier reloading after expenditure of your initial load (which may be one round if your magazine has been un locked from its proper position).

Again, semi auto service pistols are wonderful things and have been a huge asset to countering crime, but.....they need some dedication and training to be a true asset across the board.

[Tamara]

I totally agree. I've seen more jammed up wheelguns on the line during police quals than I ever saw problems with semi-autos. The revolvers also tend to need tools to fix.

You know how we like to say that "Semiautos are more tolerant of abuse and revolvers are more tolerant of neglect"?

Well, my beloved 1921-vintage .32-20 Hand Ejector, which was functioning fine the last time I handled it some three or four years ago, has come out of dry storage with the cylinder mysteriously locked up tighter than a drum. Cylinder latch won't function, can't even cock the hammer. This problem will likely require beating on the gun with a hammer. Not at all happy about that.

Will be modifying my "You can leave a revolver loaded in your sock drawer from now 'til doomsday and know it will work when you pull it out" speech.

[BehindBlueI's]

You know how we like to say that "Semiautos are more tolerant of abuse and revolvers are more tolerant of neglect"?

Well, my beloved 1921-vintage .32-20 Hand Ejector, which was functioning fine the last time I handled it some three or four years ago, has come out of dry storage with the cylinder mysteriously locked up tighter than a drum. Cylinder latch won't function, can't even cock the hammer. This problem will likely require beating on the gun with a hammer. Not at all happy about that.

Will be modifying my "You can leave a revolver loaded in your sock drawer from now 'til doomsday and know it will work when you pull it out" speech.

95 year service life? Just don't make them like them like they used to.

[Tamara]

95 year service life? Just don't make them like them like they used to.

...and yet these ones work just dandy, and I've never serviced them, either. ;)

6389

Anyhow, my point was that a revolver mysteriously locked up from just sitting in storage, rather than from any kind of use or abuse. Common internet gun wisdom says this is a thing that Does Not Happen. I have my suspicions as to why, and I'm kinda scared to pop the sideplate for fear of what I'll see. :(

[Trooper224]

Ejector rods backing out, brass popping under the extractor star, trigger stops getting out of adjustment and locking the action up solid, ah good times.