Help with POA vs POI

[DpdG]

Alright folks, I need help.

I'm a semi auto guy who's trying to appreciate the finer things in life- passion of the gun and all. I picked up a very nice, factory stock Model 65-5 and I'm trying to get into it, but I can't seem to find a load that regulates correctly to the sights. It groups consistently, but always high and generally a little left. What follows is a quick chart on loadings tried and results, all with 6 o'clock hold at 10 yards, single action off a rest.

38 special
130 FMJ 2" high
158 FMJ 4" high

357 mag
125 GD 2" high, 2" left
135 GDSB 3" high, 2" left
158 FMJ 4" high
158 GD 4" high

Ideally I'd like to use a #2 hold because of all the semi auto time I have in, but at this point I don't really enjoy shooting the dang thing. I started to look into sending this to Randy Lee for a check over and smooth out the action, but he's not taking work at the moment.

Suggestions?

[okie john]

Alright folks, I need help.

I'm a semi auto guy who's trying to appreciate the finer things in life- passion of the gun and all. I picked up a very nice, factory stock Model 65-5 and I'm trying to get into it, but I can't seem to find a load that regulates correctly to the sights. It groups consistently, but always high and generally a little left. What follows is a quick chart on loadings tried and results, all with 6 o'clock hold at 10 yards, single action off a rest.

38 special
130 FMJ 2" high
158 FMJ 4" high

357 mag
125 GD 2" high, 2" left
135 GDSB 3" high, 2" left
158 FMJ 4" high
158 GD 4" high

Ideally I'd like to use a #2 hold because of all the semi auto time I have in, but at this point I don't really enjoy shooting the dang thing. I started to look into sending this to Randy Lee for a check over and smooth out the action, but he's not taking work at the moment.

Suggestions?


Don't expect loads with different bullet weights to have the same POI. It's physics.
Consider the 130-grain FMJ a training load for speed work and don't sweat its POA. If it hits anywhere close, then you're good to go.
Keep trying loads until you have one that hits close enough to POA. Chances are it will be a full-power 357 load with a 158-grain bullet. Once you find this load, buy a bunch of it.
Shoot your tests offhand. Shooting from a rest can change your POI.



Okie John

[DpdG]

I appreciate the thoughts. I fully recognize the different weights will impact differently, hence why I've been trying multiple loads. For practice purposes I'll likely stick with the 38spl 130 FMJ, as it seems to be the most workable so far.

It seems like this gun does NOT like 158gr in either 38 or 357, as those are the furthest from POA in my hands. Following the trends above, I'll be stuck with 110gr 357 as a carry load, which I'm not keen on for reasons of the forcing cone. Also, any thoughts on why some loads exhibit a windage shift in addition to elevation?

EDIT- This is a 3" gun, if it matters.

[Luke]

What's it shoot like with the 110gr you carry?

[41magfan]

Find yourself a gunsmith or S&W revolver armorer that knows how to beat that gun into submission with one of these. You can zero the gun to a specific load or to a particular point that accommodates a range of loads that you will use most often.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/RGRI37.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyRGRI37j)

The lead babbitts shown above are used to actually bend the barrel into proper alignment with the rear sight notch. It's a pretty straightforward (albeit violent) fix and yields excellent results when done correctly.

[DpdG]

What's it shoot like with the 110gr you carry?

I don't know, as I haven't shot any 110's yet. I have always heard to try to avoid the lighter 357 loads in K frames for fear of splitting the forcing cone. Also, it seems like most fixed sight guns prefer 158gr, but clearly not this one.

I am not currently carrying this gun, as I'm not comfortable with the POA/POI shift. Once I've got a loading figured out I'll spend more time getting my revolver skills up to speed.

[okie john]

It seems like this gun does NOT like 158gr in either 38 or 357, as those are the furthest from POA in my hands. Following the trends above, I'll be stuck with 110gr 357 as a carry load, which I'm not keen on for reasons of the forcing cone. Also, any thoughts on why some loads exhibit a windage shift in addition to elevation?

I'm not sure that I'd choose a load based on POI, which is actually pretty easy to change. Instead, I think that it makes more sense to start with the loads on Doc's list, check them for muzzle flash, then see how well they group. If they do well in each of those areas, then you can start to look at POI.

Many older fixed-sight 38 and 357 revolvers are meant to put the group right on top of the front sight at 25 yards, and that's not a bad place for it to be. It may be a bit high at shorter ranges, but you can figure that out pretty easily.

As for windage, I have no idea why some loads shift to one side or the other, I just test different loads and note what each one does. Once you get the elevation figured out, you can judiciously open the rear sight notch with a toolmaker's file to adjust windage if necessary. I've done this a couple of times. Just go slowly--you can't put metal back if you go too far. It's nerve wracking, but it works.

Speaking of nerve wracking, I've read that the S&W factory whacks the frame with a lead babbit to adjust POI, but I know nothing of the technique or tools involved.


EDIT- This is a 3" gun, if it matters.

Not sure that it does.


Okie John

[BN]

I would test at 25 yards.

[LSP972]

Find yourself a gunsmith or S&W revolver armorer that knows how to beat that gun into submission with one of these. You can zero the gun to a specific load or to a particular point that accommodates a range of loads that you will use most often.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/RGRI37.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyRGRI37j)

The lead babbitts shown above are used to actually bend the barrel into proper alignment with the rear sight notch. It's a pretty straightforward (albeit violent) fix and yields excellent results when done correctly.

Careful… you're going to cause a stroke or two with that advice.;)

Lord knows I've had more than one guy spazz out when I applied that sort of "percussive maintenance". And its not just for barrels; bent ejector rods, warped yokes, binding cylinders; all sorts of revolver maladies fall to Mr. Babbit.:cool:

.

[GJM]

I find revolvers to be quite sensitive to bullet weight, in terms of POI. Much more so than 9/.40/.45 semi-auto pistols.

[DpdG]

Well I guess a trip to the 25 yard line is in order.

If a babbit beating is necessary, how does that fix my problem? I don't doubt the experience of you gentlemen, but isn't elevation (assuming proper sight alignment) a function of the height of the front sight relative to the bore? Maybe it's my bottom feeder background speaking, but wouldn't I want a taller front sight to lower the POI?

Anyone know a competent babbit beater in the greater NH area?

[nycnoob]

Well I guess a trip to the 25 yard line is in order.

If a babbit beating is necessary, how does that fix my problem? I don't doubt the experience of you gentlemen, but isn't elevation (assuming proper sight alignment) a function of the height of the front sight relative to the bore? Maybe it's my bottom feeder background speaking, but wouldn't I want a taller front sight to lower the POI?

Anyone know a competent babbit beater in the greater NH area?


Not quite NH but he is known to be good with revolvers in particular:


La Rocca Gunworks
Gun Shop
Address: 51 Union St, Worcester, MA 01608
Phone:(508) 754-2887


http://www.laroccagunworks.com/custom_revolvers.shtml


These testimonials are from his Shotgun page. I heard about him from DeBethencourt.



Testmonials

"If I had to shoot a practical match in Britain or elsewhere tomorrow and could take only one gun, I'd use the LaRocca...."
– Massad Ayoob, Handgunner Magazine, January 1987

"LaRocca's Practical Shotguns are winners - both in Practical Shooting competition and for self defense!"
– Walt Rauch, Combat Handguns, August 1994

"This 870 is fantastic!! I can't believe how smooth it is and how much the recoil is tamed."
– Sergeant Dave Spaulding, Training Specialist,
Montgomery County Sheriff's Department

[41magfan]

Well I guess a trip to the 25 yard line is in order.

If a babbit beating is necessary, how does that fix my problem? I don't doubt the experience of you gentlemen, but isn't elevation (assuming proper sight alignment) a function of the height of the front sight relative to the bore? Maybe it's my bottom feeder background speaking, but wouldn't I want a taller front sight to lower the POI?

Anyone know a competent babbit beater in the greater NH area?

Let’s not overthink this ….

In your case, where POI is high relative to POA, we need to lower the orientation of the barrel (relative to the sights) in order to lower the impact.

Striking the barrel with the lead Babbitt so that it changes the orientation by a few thousandths is simply an exercise in alignment of the barrel (relative to the sights) …. nothing more.

Personally, I’d zero the gun at about 10-15 yards where you can readily distinguish human error from the physical changes you’re making to the gun.

[DpdG]

Thank you all for the patience, I know I've been a bit obtuse on this whole babbit/sight issues.

It looks like I've got a bit of crow to eat as well. I changed out the grips last night, from magna/T grip to full size Hogue RB rubbers, to try to isolate shooter induced grip issues. Went to the range today, appears grip was an issue. With 357/125 gr Gold Dot, I'm getting elevation right where it should be. I still have some windage error, approx 3" at 15 yards, but that is likely a shooter error as well. 357/135gr Critical Duty was about 2" low at same range. I did not have any 135 or 158gr GD to try. 38spl went much better than past trips, with 130gr being well regulated at 15yds and 158gr being about 1.5-2" high but good windage.

I can't see carrying the gun with these grips, but it gives me a much better baseline to work with.

[LSP972]

That was going to be my next suggestion- change stocks.

Goodyears- a generic term for any brand of rubber stock- truly suck for any but OWB/open carry. The only thing worse, IMO, is seeing a gun condom on an HK or Sig (one expects this sort of thing from Glock owners, so they get a pass ;) ). OTOH, there are still quite a few sources of semi-custom wood stocks that won't require a kidney or your first-born. Probably the best all-around stock maker right now, in terms of quality but not-too-exhorbitant pricing, is Kim Ahrends. Google that name for his site; he has some truly wonderful stuff available for K frames.

The babbit bar is the absolute last resort for adjusting POI on a fixed-sight revolver. I was laughing with 41Mag, and didn't finish my thoughts. Sorry.

.

[HCM]

Well I guess a trip to the 25 yard line is in order.

If a babbit beating is necessary, how does that fix my problem? I don't doubt the experience of you gentlemen, but isn't elevation (assuming proper sight alignment) a function of the height of the front sight relative to the bore? Maybe it's my bottom feeder background speaking, but wouldn't I want a taller front sight to lower the POI?

Anyone know a competent babbit beater in the greater NH area?

Not NH but close and known goos with revolvers

CHESTNUT MOUNTAIN SPORTS
155 State Forest Road
P. O. Box 638
West Rutland, VT 05777
info@chestnutmountainsports.com
(802) 438-5732

http://chestnutmountainsports.com