Why aren't Serpa and cheap knock offs of Serpas banned by USPSA? [Archive]

HCountyGuy

03-03-2016, 07:56 PM

BehindBlueI's

03-03-2016, 08:33 PM

The only issue that's been validated is getting a foreign object stuck under the trigger release creating a SNAFU until you can dislodge the obstruction.

That's why we're strongly discouraged from them. Get knocked down in gravel, mud, or snow and you may not be able to get your gun out. Yup, even compacted snow.

ragnar_d

03-03-2016, 09:58 PM

As much as I hate Serpas, I cringe even more when someone has a gun riding in a nylon sausage sack. At a few matches now I've wanted to hide behind an AR500 plate while the new shooters were trying to handle their gun. One was even a friend of mine who came to a 2-gun match with a PX4 she borrowed from her father. Almost DQ'ed herself because the thing was bouncing all over the place and on the verge of falling out. That was a soup sandwich of a day . . .

olstyn

03-04-2016, 01:41 AM

half the folks that use DOH style holsters have them adjusted so they sweep their leg Brownie style when holstering and drawing.

Yeah, funny how canting the grip of the gun outward results in canting the muzzle inward. Isn't geometry great?

HCM

03-04-2016, 04:16 AM

Cheap with an active retention, without being a sock.

I've never bought in to the "safety concerns".Bought a Serpa as my first holster, and at the time I knew frikkin zero, not even Cooper's four. Want to know what happened? Nothing! Never gave myself a body piercing, because my finger wound up on the frame.

The two largest local law enforcement agencies use level 3 Serpas, and have been for a substantial amount of time with no issues. Snatching, yanking, twisting has yielded no breakages. The only issue that's been validated is getting a foreign object stuck under the trigger release creating a SNAFU until you can dislodge the obstruction.

Re: safety issues, FLETC prohibited them after 4 injury ND's I am personally aware of. It's not just a novice issue. Chris Cerino, of Top. Shot fame, also a veteran LEO and FI shot himself with a SERPA and an M&P . To his credit Chris totally owned the issue. It occurred when the gun failed to release on the initial draw. As he was pushing the button and pulling on the gun, the gun unexpectedly came free and his finger, which was still trying to push the SERPA button went right onto the trigger. Fact is if Chris Cerino can shoot himself with a SERPA. So could you, or I or any member of this board.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

The Plainclothes version are very easy to break. I've personally seen several of the Plainclothes version break. The duty versions are far more durable than the standard versions however, There has been one documented case I'm aware of where a suspect tore apart a SERPA duty holster, disarming the officer and shooting him with his own gun. It occurred in Ithaca, NY in 2011.

http://cnycentral.com/news/local/man-shot-and-killed-after-wounding-ithaca-police-officer?id=656202

According to a news release, a uniformed Ithaca police officer was parked in a patrol car in the gas station parking lot when he was "violently attacked" by a 20-year-old man. During the attack, "the suspect tore the Officer's duty weapon from his duty belt... and a round was discharged grazing the Officer's leg."

State Police say a second officer arrived on the scene and shot the suspect after ordering him to drop the gun. The suspect was transported to a hospital in Sayre, Pennsylvania. He later died.

Now that the Safariland Pro Fit GLS holsters are available in big box stores for the same pride, there is zero reason to choose the SERPA.

That Guy

03-04-2016, 06:04 AM

I've never bought in to the "safety concerns".

Said safety concerns have been at this point pretty damn well spelled out on this forum. When you see a Serpa advocate nearly shoot himself while demonstrating how to properly and safely use said holster, I really can't understand what remains to be said.

nwhpfan

03-04-2016, 11:20 AM

Interested in responses, pro and con. I'm seeing a lot of new shooters wearing them as their first holster.

They are very rare, if not non existent in my area. I RO and I've been a dedicated RO/CRO at regional matches. I don't think at a Section or State Match I've ever seen one.

At a local match, I've seen a few. Maybe 4-5 times in the last few years.

Some people come out to a match just to see what it's all about. Some of those people might continue, some are one and done. I can't recall seeing anyone that is a semi-regular or regular competitor that uses one. For the game, a retention holsters is not ideal.

As a safety issue. Sure, I think anyone can point out the safety concerns. For USPSA 1, they have a rule that says they won't dictate what type of holster to use but they can disallow a holster that is unsafe. Usually that has been applied to things that aren't even holster or some version of cloth and string. Again, for the first time person that just showed up. As for Serpa....I just don't think it's on their radar. They are so uncommon and maybe because nobody has shot themselves in a match.

Cowtown44

03-04-2016, 01:36 PM

They are very rare, if not non existent in my area. I RO and I've been a dedicated RO/CRO at regional matches. I don't think at a Section or State Match I've ever seen one.

At a local match, I've seen a few. Maybe 4-5 times in the last few years.

Some people come out to a match just to see what it's all about. Some of those people might continue, some are one and done. I can't recall seeing anyone that is a semi-regular or regular competitor that uses one. For the game, a retention holsters is not ideal.

As a safety issue. Sure, I think anyone can point out the safety concerns. For USPSA 1, they have a rule that says they won't dictate what type of holster to use but they can disallow a holster that is unsafe. Usually that has been applied to things that aren't even holster or some version of cloth and string. Again, for the first time person that just showed up. As for Serpa....I just don't think it's on their radar. They are so uncommon and maybe because nobody has shot themselves in a match.

I see two or three per match, week in and week out, and that's just in the one out of five squads I RO. Without one exception, all have been used by newer shooters.

Mr_White

03-04-2016, 06:40 PM

Because no one wants to alienate sponsors and newbies. Hell half the folks that use DOH style holsters have them adjusted so they sweep their leg Brownie style when holstering and drawing. Try telling someone their $100 BladeTech DOH "race" production rig is dangerous.

Try telling a seasoned tactical trainer who is in the midst of mounting his high horse about banning appendix carry from their range or classes, that out of the common belt-mounted holster types/positions, the worst self-muzzling occurs from strong side IWB and that a well-arranged AIWB rig is vastly safer. (Not saying that to disagree with what you wrote.)

HCountyGuy

03-05-2016, 01:02 PM

Re: safety issues, FLETC prohibited them after 4 injury ND's I am personally aware of. It's not just a novice issue. Chris Cerino, of Top. Shot fame, also a veteran LEO and FI shot himself with a SERPA and an M&P . To his credit Chris totally owned the issue. It occurred when the gun failed to release on the initial draw. As he was pushing the button and pulling on the gun, the gun unexpectedly came free and his finger, which was still trying to push the SERPA button went right onto the trigger. Fact is if Chris Cerino can shoot himself with a SERPA. So could you, or I or any member of this board.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

The Plainclothes version are very easy to break. I've personally seen several of the Plainclothes version break. The duty versions are far more durable than the standard versions however, There has been one documented case I'm aware of where a suspect tore apart a SERPA duty holster, disarming the officer and shooting him with his own gun. It occurred in Ithaca, NY in 2011.

http://cnycentral.com/news/local/man-shot-and-killed-after-wounding-ithaca-police-officer?id=656202

Now that the Safariland Pro Fit GLS holsters are available in big box stores for the same pride, there is zero reason to choose the SERPA.

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

joshs

03-05-2016, 01:28 PM

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

I think everyone accepts that AIWB is more dangerous, but for some the benefits outweigh the risk. This is the classic risk calculus used in negligence law. Benefits < Probability x Loss = Negligence. The question is what benefits does the SERPA offer that outweigh the increased risk? If it doesn't offer something over the competition, then all it takes is a products liability attorney who understands the market for BH to face substantial liability.

HCM

03-05-2016, 02:26 PM

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

Basically, you are saying it is a training issue. I disagree and I believe it is a poor design which sets people up for failure.

In the other Serpa thread, Dr. Meyer gives a very good explanation as to why the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors standpoint.

My thumbnail version is guns are designed so that your finger naturally goes to the trigger when you have a proper firing grip, A principal known as Affordance. You are now using your trigger finger to activate a button on the SERPA at the same time you are acquiring a firing grip on the handgun. We train to keep our finger straight as we acquire the fire and grip and draw. In doing so, we are already going against the way the gun is designed. This is sometimes a challenge even with conventional holsters When you start using your trigger finger for other things instead of keeping it straight you are now undermining your own training.

This is on top of the durability issues and the issues with the Serpa mechanism locking up. No thank you.

Wendell

03-05-2016, 04:00 PM

I think everyone accepts that AIWB is more dangerous...

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'. Have you never watched anyone use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'? (Forget about just the twig and berries, we're talking ascending colon, descending colon, small intestine, AND twig and berries.) That happens all the time, and nobody has banned any of them; the problem is the user, and/or the training, not the particular holster.

Try telling a seasoned tactical trainer who is in the midst of mounting his high horse about banning appendix carry from their range or classes, that out of the common belt-mounted holster types/positions, the worst self-muzzling occurs from strong side IWB and that a well-arranged AIWB rig is vastly safer. (Not saying that to disagree with what you wrote.)

x2

GardoneVT

03-05-2016, 05:06 PM

The word is getting out.

Earlier at my range's RSO desk, there was a discussion about the SERPA. Turns out one of the RSOs went to an intro class at a range which banned them. He asked why, and thus is an apostle of the Church of Latter Day Serpa Users. To drive the point home to the others, I showed the video on Page 1 and demo'd my Safariland ALS drop leg.

Hearts and minds, yall.

joshs

03-05-2016, 06:14 PM

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'.

Yeah, it is. The probability of shooting yourself can be mitigated with any of the common carry positions, but the loss side of the risk calculus is worse AIWB.

olstyn

03-05-2016, 06:26 PM

use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'?

Is there something about the design of the Supertuck/MTAC/hybrid IWB holsters in general that causes people to do this? I've never had to with mine. I suppose someone more "generously proportioned" than me (6-0, 175, 31 waist) might have some anatomical features that would cause the sweat guard area of the leather portion of the holster to be pushed outward, leading to a tendency to lever the gun into it. Hybrid IWB: safe if you're skinny, dangerous if you're fat?

(None of the above should be construed to mean that I think hybrids are great; mine was my first holster purchase when I didn't have as good an understanding as I do now, and while I've since learned why other options are better, it works well enough for me that it hasn't been completely replaced yet.)

A bit more on topic for the thread, there are a few shooters local to me who regularly compete from Serpas, and while I'd rather they didn't use those holsters at all, I've found that telling people their gear sucks usually doesn't go over very well, even when you support your claim with logic and evidence. There's just too much emotional investment in gear choices, and I'd rather have fun at a match than get into an argument that's unlikely to change somebody's mind.

HopetonBrown

03-05-2016, 08:33 PM

Is there something about the design of the Supertuck/MTAC/hybrid IWB holsters in general that causes people to do this?

The soft leather backing collapses, making the holster mouth smaller, so they often do the crowbar technique (which isn't a technique) to get it back in.

Peally

03-05-2016, 09:50 PM

If I have to RO it's a simple mental rule: when I see a SERPA I know there's DERPA. Only passes are people who disable the button and use them as low retention race holsters.

A lot of equipment makes me cringe and think "great this guy is going to shoot himself". SERPA is on the list along with Uncle Mike's anything and the aforementioned IWB holsters that some boobs can't reholster with without sweeping their entire body multiple times playing holster pool.

olstyn

03-06-2016, 01:29 AM

The soft leather backing collapses, making the holster mouth smaller, so they often do the crowbar technique (which isn't a technique) to get it back in.

Huh, mine's leather must be less soft than average, or as I speculated above, maybe my body type is just compatible with that type of holster, because I haven't noticed mine getting floppy at all. (It's actually quite stiff, even after a few years of use.) If it ever gets floppy, I'll immediately stop using it, but for now, I guess it's still ok. I use a CCC TUF for competition and trips to the range for practice, but the CBST gets used for carry quite a bit, as it conceals well and is comfortable.

HCountyGuy

03-06-2016, 10:22 AM

Basically, you are saying it is a training issue. I disagree and I believe it is a poor design which sets people up for failure.

In the other Serpa thread, Dr. Meyer gives a very good explanation as to why the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors standpoint.

My thumbnail version is guns are designed so that your finger naturally goes to the trigger when you have a proper firing grip, A principal known as Affordance. You are now using your trigger finger to activate a button on the SERPA at the same time you are acquiring a firing grip on the handgun. We train to keep our finger straight as we acquire the fire and grip and draw. In doing so, we are already going against the way the gun is designed. This is sometimes a challenge even with conventional holsters When you start using your trigger finger for other things instead of keeping it straight you are now undermining your own training.

This is on top of the durability issues and the issues with the Serpa mechanism locking up. No thank you.

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

The lone advantage of the design of the Serpa, or similarly placed retention button holsters, is that it re-enforces proper indexing. I've been using Serpas for about 5 years now, with a bit of changing to other holsters for experimenting or testing. While other holsters have arguably better construction as far as durability, I fumble more with their retention than with a Serpa. I will note I have yet to try out the 578 GLS series, as I'm not so fond of "one size fits many" designs. But when it comes to thumb releases like the 6378, I've had more bungled draws.

What many people do, is apply pressure solely with the tip of the finger, as opposed to utilizing the distal joint and up. With me, most of the pressure to defeat the Serpa's finger release comes from just above the distal joint on my finger. Thus, my finger maintains its straight placement, and I don't hook the trigger.

In the context of competition shooting, the durability of the Serpa is enough to function adequately for the necessary application. Even the issue with getting debris, dirt or snow beneath the finger release is less likely than having Mike Bloomberg show up to compete for a 3-gun match.

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

joshs

03-06-2016, 11:51 AM

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

Most of the issues I've seen come from the shooter trying to draw the gun before the lock is disengaged, this then seems to send a "push harder" signal to the persons index finger causing it to curl into the trigger guard once the pistol clears the holster.

HCM

03-06-2016, 01:05 PM

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

The lone advantage of the design of the Serpa, or similarly placed retention button holsters, is that it re-enforces proper indexing. I've been using Serpas for about 5 years now, with a bit of changing to other holsters for experimenting or testing. While other holsters have arguably better construction as far as durability, I fumble more with their retention than with a Serpa. I will note I have yet to try out the 578 GLS series, as I'm not so fond of "one size fits many" designs. But when it comes to thumb releases like the 6378, I've had more bungled draws.

What many people do, is apply pressure solely with the tip of the finger, as opposed to utilizing the distal joint and up. With me, most of the pressure to defeat the Serpa's finger release comes from just above the distal joint on my finger. Thus, my finger maintains its straight placement, and I don't hook the trigger.

In the context of competition shooting, the durability of the Serpa is enough to function adequately for the necessary application. Even the issue with getting debris, dirt or snow beneath the finger release is less likely than having Mike Bloomberg show up to compete for a 3-gun match.

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

In the context of competition shooting, I would agree the surprise is durable enough and lock up is not an issue. In the real world both of those are significant issues since many fights go to the ground.

I am a bit skeptical of Multifit holsters myself. I just ordered a 578 pro fit to experiment with. However, Safari land offers GLS holsters which are made to fit specific guns.I have been running a Safari land 537, the pancake concealment version of the GLS since December. I've used it for qualifications at work and for a training class. So far so good. The GLS is very intuitive and the less you think about it the better it works.

HopetonBrown

03-06-2016, 01:54 PM

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

Be sure to record those 1,000 Serpa draws during a match, classifier, qual or in front of an audience. There should be some element of stress. I think a lot of the pro Serpa people do draws in the bedroom mirror then call it safe.

rwa

03-13-2016, 09:40 AM

Only passes are people who disable the button and use them as low retention race holsters. I tried a Serpa shortly after they were introduced. I disabled the lock by filing the plastic tab/retention device down. I eventually put the holster where it belonged, in the trash bin.

SLG

03-13-2016, 05:28 PM

HCountryGuy,

I think you don't understand the issues involved. No one I know thinks that an untrained beginner like you said you were will automatically shoot themselves with a serpa. No one I know thinks that everyone who does 10,000 serpa draws will shoot themselves at some time during those 10,000. There is nothing you can do to prove that the serpa is safe. There is not a skilled, experienced, professional shooter I know of who thinks the serpa is acceptable. That is true for the tactical side as well as the game side. In fact, someone choosing to carry a serpa is proof to me that they do not know very much, regardless of where they work or what they do.

Let's remove the trigger finger activation for a minute. The serpa is just poorly made, and not a high quality holster. Those things don't go along with my ideas of how to effectively defend myself or our society. If you are ok with lower quality equipment that is poorly made and poorly designed, then that's your choice. It's kind of like someone coming on here and saying that their made in China $200 tactical scope is just as good as my Nightforce.

I too think that aiwb is more dangerous than strong side, but I can't prove that. At least a couple of Docs on this forum seem to think it is less dangerous, so pick what you want and take your chances. Just like everything else.

SLG

03-13-2016, 05:30 PM

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'. Have you never watched anyone use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'? (Forget about just the twig and berries, we're talking ascending colon, descending colon, small intestine, AND twig and berries.) That happens all the time, and nobody has banned any of them; the problem is the user, and/or the training, not the particular holster.

x2

Your example does not support your assertion.

Wendell

03-13-2016, 06:55 PM

Your example does not support your assertion.

Well, yeah, that's...like...your opinion man. :cool:

SLG

03-13-2016, 07:06 PM

Well, yeah, like, that's your opinion, man. :cool:

It is, but it is also true. You are comparing junk IWB holsters, used by poorly trained people, to quality aiwb holsters, used by some spectrum of people, presumably.

Also, the twigs and berries are not the big concern to most people I talk to. It is the femoral.

Most strong side, self inflicted wounds seem to be of the lower leg, or at most, the upper leg. I'm unaware of any that traversed the body. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've heard of tons of leg injuries, and seen a few strong side ND's, both with and without injury. I've yet to hear of anything worse.

Stupid people are unsafe with anything. Well trained people are pretty safe with anything. The problem is, well trained people sometimes act like stupid people too.