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cclaxton
03-03-2016, 11:14 AM
Fascinating Story about how data that shows racism in policing may be concealed by failing to look at the deeper data.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/03/03/how-tracking-police-data-by-race-can-make-unfair-laws-look-like-the-cops-fault/?hpid=hp_regional-hp-cards_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fcard

Cody

Dagga Boy
03-03-2016, 01:07 PM
Okay, who is posting on Cody's account.....;).

Let me add some things that NOBODY wants to talk about, because....racist. Simple culture. Having worked in many communities made up entirely of folks of a specific background in regards to race or country of origin, certain things are noted as being a norm. Honestly, this is some of that real cultural sensitivity training you get with immersion, rather than some stupid class forced on cops.
Growing up where I did, there was a HUGE emphasis on getting your "learners permit". Huge emphasis from both parents and friends on going to DMV to get your testing and paperwork in order, and then getting the proper drivers training. Huge emphasis on actually getting a license. Getting your picture taken. I had to hump (and I mean true hard physical work) in one of my dad's warehouses for a summer to make enough to pay for my insurance....because, no insurance, no driving. In most of the places I worked, none of this was part of the culture. The idea was almost get a car, and drive till caught without a license, and then the cycle starts. Go to a low income area, and look at the cars. Look at "modifications" to those vehicles and decide if that may be a safety issue that draws attention from LE that is also blamed on race, but is in fact a stereotype of the Cornucopia of violations associated with these vehicles. Certain indicators cops understand as far as efficiency. A trend that even the most clueless cop should understand is that those that don't pay their registration, also don't go to court for tickets or arrests. Many stops for unpaid registration end up in an arrest for failures to appear in court.....which are an easy arrest. Those who have gone to the trouble of putting on fake registration evidence on their vehicles, can be almost guaranteed to have warrants for their arrest. Much of this is common in many communities......those happen to often be communities of color. With that said....communities of low income housing occupied by any race will yield similar results. Tweaked white trash trailer park will be as big a gold mine of criminal activity centered around vehicles as any ghetto or barrio. Cops who work know this. The fastest way to de-police and avoid issues for a cop is to ignore mechanical violations, avoid low income neighborhoods, and target wealthier neighborhoods for moving violations that will get you plenty of activity and revenue generation, yet almost no criminal contact....thus, making it career safe. Meanwhile, the public shares the road with unlicensed, un insured, drivers in unsafe vehicles.......back to getting the policing you deserve.

cclaxton
03-03-2016, 01:26 PM
Okay, who is posting on Cody's account.....;).
The more I learn about policing and the more I hang out with LEOs at matches, the better I understand the difficulties and challenges associated with police, and the social and cultural factors that result in the appearance of racial disparity, but not necessarily true. I am starting to think the issue is that people just don't understand policing...they are just ignorant of the profession.
Cody

Dagga Boy
03-03-2016, 01:54 PM
As I tell anyone who will listen, after spending my entire adult life as a cop, hanging around with cops, and being very familiar with LE culture, Cops are far less racist than the populace as a whole, and are actually very fair in that they pretty much hate everybody equally. They see the ugly in everybody. In many cases, the only thing that registers with them is that they like respectful people, and detest disrespectful people. I have taken plenty of folks to jail who I went above and beyond to make things as easy as possible because they were at least a respectful criminal. Equally, some of the folks I most despised and would bend over backwards to make life hard was for rude, entitled, wealthy non-minorities who didn't feel any sort of rules applied to them. Just as bad in my book as the ghetto scumbag animals (and most ghetto folk were not too hard to along with and actually decent folks who are victimized by their own regularly). It is hard for me to draw a difference in the black tranny crack whore, and the local white church deacon and Sheriff's posse member cruising around in a corset, panties, thigh high pantyhose and high heels looking for freaks to pick up on.....except the white guy is making a choice and the crack addict is trying to survive. I am equally repulsed by both, but am more empathetic towards the black guy.......because.....racism.

JDB
03-03-2016, 01:58 PM
The more I learn about policing and the more I hang out with LEOs at matches, the better I understand the difficulties and challenges associated with police, and the social and cultural factors that result in the appearance of racial disparity, but not necessarily true. I am starting to think the issue is that people just don't understand policing...they are just ignorant of the profession.
Cody

Ah, I love it. Can't help laughing, that just made my day.

To Cody, a sincere thank you, much appreciated.

Erick Gelhaus
03-03-2016, 10:05 PM
Reading the thread title, I thought Cody's accoiunt had been hacked. Then I read his take on the article and I realized I was mistaken.

Fascinating Story about how data that shows racism in policing may be concealed by failing to look at the deeper data.
Cody

Here's the actual header & sub-header:
How tracking police data by race can make unfair laws look like the cops’ fault
If problems with law enforcement were as simple as racist policing, they'd be easier to solve. But they aren't.

Stunning, rather than assuming we are racist, the deeper data Selby reviewed shows there is a whole lot more at play.

GardoneVT
03-03-2016, 11:59 PM
Fascinating Story about how data that shows racism in policing may be concealed by failing to look at the deeper data.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/03/03/how-tracking-police-data-by-race-can-make-unfair-laws-look-like-the-cops-fault/?hpid=hp_regional-hp-cards_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fcard

Cody

Here's the deeper data.

Police aren't the problem.Politcians who confuse race baiting with career security are the problem.

Genuinely fix the racial and economic problems of American cities, and half of Congress will be unemployed not long afterward. A broken society fills the coffers of politicians hungry for money and power. Police make an excellent scapegoat, because they're bound by law to follow the rules and they answer to the same folks who profit from the chaos.

Coyotesfan97
03-04-2016, 02:56 AM
One of my first Sergeants told me a long time ago that if people don't take care of their cars they don't take care of their tickets. If they don't take care of their tickets they don't take care of their warrants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

voodoo_man
03-04-2016, 07:25 AM
The police arent racist?

Well I never....

Hambo
03-04-2016, 08:17 AM
The more I learn about policing and the more I hang out with LEOs at matches, the better I understand the difficulties and challenges associated with police, and the social and cultural factors that result in the appearance of racial disparity, but not necessarily true. I am starting to think the issue is that people just don't understand policing...they are just ignorant of the profession.
Cody

Isn't that what we've been saying to you for some time now? :rolleyes: Want to have some fun now? Go to one of your meetings and explain that you've verified by whatever means that what cops told you about policing was actually true. Then see if any of the cop haters give a shit.

cclaxton
03-04-2016, 08:47 AM
Isn't that what we've been saying to you for some time now? :rolleyes: Want to have some fun now? Go to one of your meetings and explain that you've verified by whatever means that what cops told you about policing was actually true. Then see if any of the cop haters give a shit.
I have no doubt BLM will give a shit. I know their game. But, there are many that look to the facts to understand what is really going on. I think this study goes a long way towards helping demystify police work, and that is a good thing.
Cody

Lon
03-04-2016, 09:49 AM
One of my first Sergeants told me a long time ago that if people don't take care of their cars they don't take care of their tickets. If they don't take care of their tickets they don't take care of their warrants.


Haha. My first FTO paraphrased that by telling me, "remember, pieces of shit (regardless of race) drive pieces of shit". It's amazing how accurate an experienced street cop can be when picking out cars on the street that will almost assuredly be driven by a suspended person.

Dagga Boy
03-04-2016, 10:48 AM
Sadly, decades upon decades of handed down good cop work and an understanding of criminal trends, now enhanced with computers, is being diminished by the simple cry of "racism". Even most of the cases of white police shooting minorities in controversial shootings are the result of the cop dealing with a resistive criminal. These are all cases of folks fighting law enforcement, and then the elitist classes Monday morning QB'ing how it was handled. Every single incident could have been avoided by the suspect simply putting their hands up, submitting to cuffing, and it would have been over. The result of all the blame on race rather than criminals. Simple result.....leave criminals alone. When the criminals drift over to the limousine liberal side of town and victimizing them, when john q citizen gets tired of uninsured and unlicensed folks destroying their cars and injuring them in collisions, and when we get tired of roving gangs of criminals beating and robbing folks at will, will come the cry for the police to "do something". Sure hope they remember how or have enough folks left in police work to reverse the pendulum.

Josh Runkle
03-04-2016, 11:03 AM
Fascinating Story about how data that shows racism in policing may be concealed by failing to look at the deeper data.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/03/03/how-tracking-police-data-by-race-can-make-unfair-laws-look-like-the-cops-fault/?hpid=hp_regional-hp-cards_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fcard

Cody

Good article Cody. Thanks for sharing.

Gadfly
03-04-2016, 11:51 AM
When the criminals drift over to the limousine liberal side of town and victimizing them, when john q citizen gets tired of uninsured and unlicensed folks destroying their cars and injuring them in collisions, and when we get tired of roving gangs of criminals beating and robbing folks at will, will come the cry for the police to "do something". Sure hope they remember how or have enough folks left in police work to reverse the pendulum.


Nyeti, your quote reminded me of "Watchmen":

Rorschach's Journal. October 12th, 1985: This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll whisper "no."

Poconnor
03-07-2016, 09:51 AM
My first FTO taught me all about "shitbox" cars. Talk about multiple probable cause. I learned early on its not just about race; it's about class. There is a significant overlap with poor people and the criminal subclass. Often the people I dealt with were stupid. I'm talking handicapped stupid. I often thought that rich people didn't get arrested or convicted more just because they were smarter and committed crimes that didn't bring them in contact with patrol officers.

UNK
03-07-2016, 09:09 PM
I have no doubt BLM will give a shit. I know their game.
Cody

That's worthy of its own thread. I would like to hear your insider view on it.
SouthNarc is one insightful guy. Wouldn't you say Cody?

UNK
03-08-2016, 11:53 AM
That's worthy of its own thread. I would like to hear your insider view on it.
SouthNarc is one insightful guy. Wouldn't you say Cody?

referencing this

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16204-Roll-call-stories


Roll call stories.



So here's an idea.

Poleese. Guys like Cody and MDS are genuine and well intentioned. I think they want to understand what you guys do. Here's what I would like you to do for them. Tell them your stories. Tell them what frustrates you. About the public, about the bosses, about your peers. All of it. Tell them about the good you did on shift last night. Let this thread be a journal. Much like Kevin Spacey's composition books in Seven, let this truly be the random out-pouring of your mind.

Moderators. For this to work the way I want it to, you are going to have to keep the non-LE posting limited to questions about the stories themselves. There can absolutely be no opining or judgement about what these guys say. And it's going to have to be actively monitored.
If the public wants to understand what these guys do then the first step is to listen, warts and all.

Yes or no?

Peally
03-08-2016, 11:55 AM
This thread is a micro-aggression on my privilege

Dagga Boy
03-08-2016, 01:20 PM
Brian B, I ll give this a try. My 2nd phase FTO was the best dope finding cop I have ever seen and just a stellar guy. He was also a no b.s. truth teller who's first words to me were "son, as far as the city is concerned, you are simply a hanger for that uniform and nobody really gives a crap about you". Talk about taking the excitement out of things....but lord was he right.

Early in training we were sitting off a side street next to the "Felony Freeway". This was a street that ran parallel to the Main Street through town that was often used by criminals to avoid the main drag where there tended to be more cops. So we are watching cars pass by and after about ten cars he points to one that drove by and said "that one". I pull out and he says "find some PC quickly". Vehicle had several minor mechanical violations and I pulled the car over. My FTO gets out and goes to the drivers side. Tells the driver why we stopped him, and then says.."where is your kit". I was baffled. The guy was already starting the "I don't have nothing". FTO gets him out of the car. Has him roll up his sleeves and sure enough, his arms are covered in track marks. His pupils were severely constricted and he showed all the classic signs of a heroin user. He was arrested for under the influence, his "kit" (syringe, spoon, and elastic) was rolled up in his sock and he was holding several balloons of heroin. Good felony arrest and the guy had a long rap sheet for burglary and drug possession.

Now....here is the key. Most uninformed observers would say we just picked on the guy for being Hispanic...this had zero to do with it. I asked my FTO later how the heck he knew the guy was dirty. He just looked at me like I was a total dumbass and says "who the fuck wears a long sleeve flannel in June in Southern California"?.....".guys covering up track marks that who." That is how cop work is done. Cops look for "anomaly's" . They look for things not right. They look for things that are usually an indicator that something is not right and criminal activity is occurring. They are deeply in tune with various cultural norms....and when those are in contrast. Good indicator in our area....black and Hispanic males in thug/gangster attire in a car together. You could go to Vegas with that one. Why..? Has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with gang culture. They do not mix on the street. It is part of gang culture. They are not as in tune with the idea of everybody is the same and should be mixed as liberal college professors think. The only time they would be driving around together in the same car...dope deal or some kind of other criminal conspiracy. It would not be to run down to McDonalds for burgers and a Coke. What generally happens is the anomaly draws your attention, and then you use their crappy car or crappy driving to develop your probable cause. What is happening now is cops are simply avoiding anomaly's, putting the blinders on and just answering calls they are sent to. What they public perceives in the case of our guy with the flannel shirt is a poor Hispanic guy getting picked on by the cops. Reality...him going to jail for the dope prevented hundreds of burglaries committed against the same folks who perceive the racist police. Current solution...just take burglary reports.

UNK
03-08-2016, 02:05 PM
I think from many viewpoints it was excellent luck to find this forum. Just as important as anything else is the quality of LE that is represented here. I've learned quite a bit here.
My main point was that SouthNarc had figured out Cody early on. It just took time for him to learn all he needed to learn. Therefore SN Is a pretty insightful guy.
No ass kissing but my hat is off to all of you guys. Its a tough job only getting harder.


Brian B, I ll give this a try. My 2nd phase FTO was the best dope finding cop I have ever seen and just a stellar guy. He was also a no b.s. truth teller who's first words to me were "son, as far as the city is concerned, you are simply a hanger for that uniform and nobody really gives a crap about you". Talk about taking the excitement out of things....but lord was he right.

Early in training we were sitting off a side street next to the "Felony Freeway". This was a street that ran parallel to the Main Street through town that was often used by criminals to avoid the main drag where there tended to be more cops. So we are watching cars pass by and after about ten cars he points to one that drove by and said "that one". I pull out and he says "find some PC quickly". Vehicle had several minor mechanical violations and I pulled the car over. My FTO gets out and goes to the drivers side. Tells the driver why we stopped him, and then says.."where is your kit". I was baffled. The guy was already starting the "I don't have nothing". FTO gets him out of the car. Has him roll up his sleeves and sure enough, his arms are covered in track marks. His pupils were severely constricted and he showed all the classic signs of a heroin user. He was arrested for under the influence, his "kit" (syringe, spoon, and elastic) was rolled up in his sock and he was holding several balloons of heroin. Good felony arrest and the guy had a long rap sheet for burglary and drug possession.

Now....here is the key. Most uninformed observers would say we just picked on the guy for being Hispanic...this had zero to do with it. I asked my FTO later how the heck he knew the guy was dirty. He just looked at me like I was a total dumbass and says "who the fuck wears a long sleeve flannel in June in Southern California"?.....".guys covering up track marks that who." That is how cop work is done. Cops look for "anomaly's" . They look for things not right. They look for things that are usually an indicator that something is not right and criminal activity is occurring. They are deeply in tune with various cultural norms....and when those are in contrast. Good indicator in our area....black and Hispanic males in thug/gangster attire in a car together. You could go to Vegas with that one. Why..? Has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with gang culture. They do not mix on the street. It is part of gang culture. They are not as in tune with the idea of everybody is the same and should be mixed as liberal college professors think. The only time they would be driving around together in the same car...dope deal or some kind of other criminal conspiracy. It would not be to run down to McDonalds for burgers and a Coke. What generally happens is the anomaly draws your attention, and then you use their crappy car or crappy driving to develop your probable cause. What is happening now is cops are simply avoiding anomaly's, putting the blinders on and just answering calls they are sent to. What they public perceives in the case of our guy with the flannel shirt is a poor Hispanic guy getting picked on by the cops. Reality...him going to jail for the dope prevented hundreds of burglaries committed against the same folks who perceive the racist police. Current solution...just take burglary reports.

voodoo_man
03-08-2016, 04:32 PM
Brian B, I ll give this a try. My 2nd phase FTO was the best dope finding cop I have ever seen and just a stellar guy. He was also a no b.s. truth teller who's first words to me were "son, as far as the city is concerned, you are simply a hanger for that uniform and nobody really gives a crap about you". Talk about taking the excitement out of things....but lord was he right.

Early in training we were sitting off a side street next to the "Felony Freeway". This was a street that ran parallel to the Main Street through town that was often used by criminals to avoid the main drag where there tended to be more cops. So we are watching cars pass by and after about ten cars he points to one that drove by and said "that one". I pull out and he says "find some PC quickly". Vehicle had several minor mechanical violations and I pulled the car over. My FTO gets out and goes to the drivers side. Tells the driver why we stopped him, and then says.."where is your kit". I was baffled. The guy was already starting the "I don't have nothing". FTO gets him out of the car. Has him roll up his sleeves and sure enough, his arms are covered in track marks. His pupils were severely constricted and he showed all the classic signs of a heroin user. He was arrested for under the influence, his "kit" (syringe, spoon, and elastic) was rolled up in his sock and he was holding several balloons of heroin. Good felony arrest and the guy had a long rap sheet for burglary and drug possession.

Now....here is the key. Most uninformed observers would say we just picked on the guy for being Hispanic...this had zero to do with it. I asked my FTO later how the heck he knew the guy was dirty. He just looked at me like I was a total dumbass and says "who the fuck wears a long sleeve flannel in June in Southern California"?.....".guys covering up track marks that who." That is how cop work is done. Cops look for "anomaly's" . They look for things not right. They look for things that are usually an indicator that something is not right and criminal activity is occurring. They are deeply in tune with various cultural norms....and when those are in contrast. Good indicator in our area....black and Hispanic males in thug/gangster attire in a car together. You could go to Vegas with that one. Why..? Has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with gang culture. They do not mix on the street. It is part of gang culture. They are not as in tune with the idea of everybody is the same and should be mixed as liberal college professors think. The only time they would be driving around together in the same car...dope deal or some kind of other criminal conspiracy. It would not be to run down to McDonalds for burgers and a Coke. What generally happens is the anomaly draws your attention, and then you use their crappy car or crappy driving to develop your probable cause. What is happening now is cops are simply avoiding anomaly's, putting the blinders on and just answering calls they are sent to. What they public perceives in the case of our guy with the flannel shirt is a poor Hispanic guy getting picked on by the cops. Reality...him going to jail for the dope prevented hundreds of burglaries committed against the same folks who perceive the racist police. Current solution...just take burglary reports.

Some people would call all that profiling and discrimination.

I'd call that solid police work by an experienced practitioner.

Dagga Boy
03-08-2016, 04:46 PM
That FTO just died recently. Voodooman....you would have loved watching him testify in court. Some of the funniest stuff you ever saw. He was like a character out of a book. His nickname on SWAT was "Pigpen" because his gear was always a mess. I was his first trainee when he promoted out of narcotics. I bought his "dope gun" from him. A nickel Colt Lightwieght Commnader that he had essentially shoved down his pants and "Mexican Carried" for years. It was yellow and in horrible shape. It was my first bespoke gun that I sent to a gunsmith for full customizing and then to Robar for plating. When it was done, Pete couldn't believe it was the same gun. It is now one of my most cherished possessions.
Another funny thing was him getting thrown out of the FBI sniper school. He had a huge barrel chest and strong as an Ox. Like me, couldn't do pull ups to save his life. He was sent home from FBI Sniper School for failing the pull up portion of the fitness test. They told him it was important because he would need to be able to get up on roofs, which required doing pull ups. He killed a dude a week later.......shooting him in the chest from a roof across the street with an M16 and a Colt4x scope at night.

voodoo_man
03-08-2016, 05:06 PM
That FTO just died recently. Voodooman....you would have loved watching him testify in court. Some of the funniest stuff you ever saw. He was like a character out of a book. His nickname on SWAT was "Pigpen" because his gear was always a mess. I was his first trainee when he promoted out of narcotics. I bought his "dope gun" from him. A nickel Colt Lightwieght Commnader that he had essentially shoved down his pants and "Mexican Carried" for years. It was yellow and in horrible shape. It was my first bespoke gun that I sent to a gunsmith for full customizing and then to Robar for plating. When it was done, Pete couldn't believe it was the same gun. It is now one of my most cherished possessions.
Another funny thing was him getting thrown out of the FBI sniper school. He had a huge barrel chest and strong as an Ox. Like me, couldn't do pull ups to save his life. He was sent home from FBI Sniper School for failing the pull up portion of the fitness test. They told him it was important because he would need to be able to get up on roofs, which required doing pull ups. He killed a dude a week later.......shooting him in the chest from a roof across the street with an M16 and a Colt4x scope at night.

Ahh the stories no one will ever hear...I think I'll end up writing a book a few years after I retire....you should write one.

Coyotesfan97
03-08-2016, 10:30 PM
I wish I'd kept a journal during my career. So much stuff has been forgotten.

voodoo_man
03-09-2016, 10:01 AM
I wish I'd kept a journal during my career. So much stuff has been forgotten.

I do, they are called arrest reports.

Coyotesfan97
03-09-2016, 11:51 AM
I do, they are called arrest reports.

Not everything happens during an arrest. Lots of crazy funny stuff never got documented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

voodoo_man
03-09-2016, 12:10 PM
Not everything happens during an arrest. Lots of crazy funny stuff never got documented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dont talk about documentation...just do it....;)

Dagga Boy
03-09-2016, 02:45 PM
I agree.....the best stuff was not subject to "discovery". I was trained by a mentor before becoming a cop....no pictures...EVER! I adhered to that. With today's phones, if nothing else I would have loved to have pictures of some of the practical jokes.