Yelp review of recent Tactical Response class

[HopetonBrown]

Evidently the instructor purposely dropped his loaded pistol on the ground and stomped on it. Pistol fired a round into the parking lot, resulting in 2 deflated tires.

6267

[Dave J]

This is my surprised face.

[shane45]

Why was the instructor doing the stomping?

[GJM]

Maybe we need a sub forum entitled, "a call to troll?"

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe we need a sub forum entitled, "a call to troll?"

And a "Pro Shop."

[Lester Polfus]

I keep waiting for the hue and cry for firearms training for mere civilians to be regulated. This is the opposite of helping.

[Mr_White]

And a "Pro Shop."

How much will it cost to get extra time and a burning desire for improvement, and how much for next day delivery?

[Chance]

I'm dubious, but wouldn't be surprised. Like to see verification from someone else.

[Tamara]

I keep waiting for the hue and cry for firearms training for mere civilians to be regulated. This is the opposite of helping.

At least they just shot a couple tires and not an AI.

[GJM]

You sure they were not just demoing the effect of pistol cartridges against the common pick up truck tires/wheels?

Was he wearing hearing pro?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just as aside, I saw a 45 ACP bounce of a big truck tire that was holding down a stand and give a guy a significant but non-penetrating whack on the chest. The round was a rather mild handload from a SW 625.

[LOKNLOD]

Maybe it was the cameraman's truck.

[Exurbankevin]

Good Lord, when Front Sight is offered as a better place for training...

[PPGMD]

How the hell did they shoot the truck? I don't remember doing anything with cars in Fighting Pistol except going to get lunch.

[HopetonBrown]

Actually, I was planning on doing that... It would probably go by a different name since I'm not a pro anything.
Toddgreenamateurshop.com

[GJM]

Actually, I was planning on doing that... It would probably go by a different name since I'm not a pro anything.

I don't care what the name is as long as the first product for sale is the Gadget.

[Dagga Boy]

I don't care what the name is as long as the first product for sale is the Gadget.

What is a Gadget?

[GJM]

What is a Gadget?

You wouldn't be interested, as it doesn't go on a revolver.

[CS Tactical]

You wouldn't be interested, as it doesn't go on a revolver.

Or a P30 :cool:

[GJM]

FIFY


Or a VP9:cool:

[GardoneVT]

You wouldn't be interested, as it doesn't go on a revolver.

Gadget? Whatever , Our Fingers Are Our Safeties.

[orionz06]

You wouldn't be interested, as it doesn't go on a revolver.

I was gonna be funny and tape a gadget to a revolver but no revolver...

[GJM]

I was gonna be funny and tape a gadget to a revolver but no revolver...

Most would take a Gadget over a revolver......

[LittleLebowski]

Revolvers are cool.

Yes. I want to know more.

[voodoo_man]

Revolvers arent cool.

Whats wrong with youse.

[PPGMD]

Actually, I was planning on doing that... It would probably go by a different name since I'm not a pro anything.

Gadget-r-us

[PPGMD]

Revolvers arent cool.

Whats wrong with youse.

My 929 is cool.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

That is a sad review. I really liked Tactical Response. I took 2 classes with them, one in 2009 and another in 2010.

I thought the people were nice and I thought the training was very well done.

This...yeah...my memories were not like that.

[MichaelD]

My 929 is cool.

An old Mazda? What does that have to do with guns? :cool:

6276

[Dagga Boy]

Most would take a Gadget over a revolver......

This gadget sounds like something for guns I don't use! but I am up for trading gadgets for revolvers. I think I know a guy with some gadgets.

[Sigfan26]

What is a Gadget?

I think they sell it at The Sharper Image

[Savage Hands]

My Wife loves my Gadget...

[Exurbankevin]

We have confirmation from the range that hosted the class (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=17779356&postcount=58).

Yeager is henceforth persona non grata on that range.

[Chance]

We have confirmation from the range that hosted the class (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=17779356&postcount=58).

Yeager is henceforth persona non grata on that range.

Thanks for sharing that. I had been digging for confirmation, but hadn't been able to find anything.

[Peally]

Yeager being a raging moron. Who woulda thunk.

The fact that he's not ridden out on a rail in the training community is a testament to the average boob.

[TCinVA]

We have confirmation from the range that hosted the class (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=17779356&postcount=58).

Yeager is henceforth persona non grata on that range.

That is unacceptable.

Firearms are lethal weapons.

Handling them in such a reckless manner is unacceptable.

[HopetonBrown]

That's a good range. They get over 100 shooters for their IDPA matches and hold a state and regional championship there. Mike Seeklander and Max Joseph (co-creator of sul) teach out there a couple times a year.

[jondoe297]

Was it Yeager himself that did it? If so someone should report him to the NRA. With as much talk as there has been lately about how good the E & T division is at policing the instructors, I'm sure he'll have his instructor certifications swiftly suspended/revoked.

[CS Tactical]

Sacramento Valley Shooting Center is one of if not the best range in Northern California period! ToddG, Craig Douglas and my top trainers host classes there.

[SouthNarc]

Sac Valley is one of my favorite ranges to teach at.

[Tamara]

Maybe it was the cameraman's truck.

I wish I'd typed that. :D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I read the Calgun thread. Horrific. I was wondering what kind of gun was stomped on such that it went off? I didn't see it but might have missed it. Dropping a gun scares the crap out of me. In Aaron's recent class, he stressed never trying to catch the gun. Stomping on one on the ground - good God!

[PPGMD]

Yeah that stomping shit didn't happen in the Fighting Pistol class I took. The instructor did drop his pistol first to show that it was safe, Sherman House who posts here occasionally. But no stomping.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Get me the Mythbusters' bullet proof shield for that demo. Yeah, it's safe. However, when I saw a new shooter draw his 'piece' (that's what he called it) and hurled it about 15 feet in front of him down range on the draw - I confess to some intestinal distress.

[Lomshek]

Here's a video of a Yeager class that shows in glaring detail who he's catering to. If you don't want to watch 10 minutes of idiocy just watch the first couple minutes then skip ahead to the last 20 seconds. Try not to yell at the screen...


http://youtu.be/z8qfZVuQPe4

[Ed L]

Yeager being a raging moron. Who woulda thunk.

The fact that he's not ridden out on a rail in the training community is a testament to the average boob.

I don't think there is any logistical or procedural way to "ride an instructor out on a rail" in the training community.

He and his group are shunned by people who know better.

This isn't like a religious organization where someone can be excommunicated, though I would like to see him declared silly by a court of jesters.

If he lived in someplace like NY or MA, his antics and talk might have resulted in him getting his firearms confiscated and licenses revoked, which in itself could have climaxed ina violent confrontation that would reflect badly on gunowners.

Firearms training is for the most part unregulated, other than clubs and such not approving of instructors or permitting them to teach there. As much as there are stupid people out there who should not be teaching, I would fear any type of governmental oversight would turn into an instrument to be used by antigunners.

[Ed L]

Was it Yeager himself that did it? If so someone should report him to the NRA. With as much talk as there has been lately about how good the E & T division is at policing the instructors, I'm sure he'll have his instructor certifications swiftly suspended/revoked.

First, I don't think Yeager has taught classes on the road in quite a while.

Second, I am not sure that having his NRA instructor certificates revoked would mean anything. He would likely continue to teach and wear it as a badge of honor.

In most places there is no legal requirements to be met to become a firearms instructor. Shooting clubs and and facilities may impose their own requirements. As I wrote in my last post, while there may indeed be instructors out there who should not be teaching, I am afraid that if there were any type of legal oversight it would be harnessed by antigun politicians and groups to make it harder to train and to restrict effective training.

[Dagga Boy]

In a gun industry that is totally run on "likes" and "views", Yeager is one of the top instructors in the industry, just like Pincus and others who have mastered the social media shooting community. I hate it, but I am the minority and dollars wins in this market as to what the direction is. These folks are now our industry whether the minority of us like it. I simply accept it as a free market thing, encourage many folks who I do not want as students to go to them. You get the trainers you deserve......many should be in these classes and glued to their videos.

[PNWTO]

Here's a video of a Yeager class that shows in glaring detail who he's catering to. If you don't want to watch 10 minutes of idiocy just watch the first couple minutes then skip ahead to the last 20 seconds. Try not to yell at the screen...


https://youtu.be/z8qfZVuQPe4

Oh what the fuck... as soon as I saw all the masturbation gear and the sneezing distances of the targets I just went to the end.

[Chance]

In a gun industry that is totally run on "likes" and "views", Yeager is one of the top instructors in the industry, just like Pincus and others who have mastered the social media shooting community. I hate it, but I am the minority and dollars wins in this market as to what the direction is. These folks are now our industry whether the minority of us like it. I simply accept it as a free market thing, encourage many folks who I do not want as students to go to them. You get the trainers you deserve......many should be in these classes and glued to their videos.

James Yeager is the Donald Trump of the firearms training community.

I now encourage everyone to go to any political thread they can find and say, "Donald Trump is the James Yeager of all the candidates." Priorities will sort themselves out in a hurry.

ETA: Please don't cite me. I don't want the retard strength of The Internet descending upon me.

[LittleLebowski]

Was this posted yet? Not from the same class but the first 2 mins.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

[BehindBlueI's]

Was this posted yet? Not from the same class but the first 2 mins.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

Reminds me of:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw

But with more beards and spinning.

[Kyle Reese]

Was this posted yet? Not from the same class but the first 2 mins.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

Is this supposed to be "training"? Looks like a gargantuan clusterfuck to me.

[Luke]

Wow. That's insane. Lots of crazy stuff.

[Tamara]

Was this posted yet? Not from the same class but the first 2 mins.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

I'll just copypasta, then...


"What the hell is with the stylized hokey-pokey steps after the pirouette portion of the range Macarena? What exactly is hopping from one foot to another like a third grader who has to pee while you're doing your reload supposed to accomplish? Why are you keeping your eyes fixed firmly downrange while doing your reload despite the threat apparently being sufficiently neutralized that you JUST TURNED YOUR BACK ON IT A SECOND BEFORE?

Sweet zombie Jesus what is all this I can't even

The downrange photographer stuff I'm just numb to by now, except to notice that there's no justice in the universe because just one rock...one lucky little rock...in that berm could have made this the best internet comedy video since Yeager acolyte Tex managed to Grebner himself."


They should practice and go to classes to get better. Maybe if the AIs spent more time AI'ing and less time offering to use the student's cellies to take glamour shots?

(You can hear the AI, when he takes the cell phone, tell the student "Other schools won't do this." Yeah, numbnuts, because at other schools the instructors are too busy instructing.)

[Dagga Boy]

The pirouette is so when you get out of the ditch where you got off the X to leave all your team in the car you were driving and you reappear....you make a pirouette and ask "where is everybody". They won't answer because they are dead. Technique works great for its intent.

[BehindBlueI's]

The pirouette is so when you get out of the ditch where you got off the X to leave all your team in the car you were driving and you reappear....you make a pirouette and ask "where is everybody". They won't answer because they are dead. Technique works great for its intent.

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/12/Oh-Snap-GIF-2015.gif?gs=a

[Kyle Reese]

The pirouette is so when you get out of the ditch where you got off the X to leave all your team in the car you were driving and you reappear....you make a pirouette and ask "where is everybody". They won't answer because they are dead. Technique works great for its intent.

Bazinga.

[pdb]

Originally Posted by nyeti
The pirouette is so when you get out of the ditch where you got off the X to leave all your team in the car you were driving and you reappear....you make a pirouette and ask "where is everybody". They won't answer because they are dead. Technique works great for its intent.

6290

SAVAGE.

[pdb]

As I said on T's fazeboog:

1) For being so close to their targets (literally bad breath distance), they're shooting like old people fornicate.

1a) Did they do ANY shooting beyond sight offset distance?

2) Yanking on your charging handle like that on every reload is a great way to bend or tear apart your charging handle if you happen to do it with the bolt locked back. If you've got enough time to do that retarded little squaredance then you sure have time to do a chamber check at your leisure.

2a) This also tells me they're still sticking to racking the slide on every reload because apparently "fingers turn to flippers" or some nonsense and between your fingers being able to activate a small trigger and a small button for the magazine release, they are suddenly unable to operate the slide release.

3) They sure are wearing a lot of stuff.

4) Those look like assistant instructors in the background there, why aren't they helping out with fixing the students crappy trigger control, zero upper body control, stance, COME ON.

5) And yes the glacially slow tactical twirlscan. Yes, by all means, practice to do the exact same thing for every single situation you hope to be in. My goodness, there could only possibly be one bad guy in front of you at one time, right?

6) I didn't watch the last 20 seconds the first time around, but WOW. No awareness of muzzle direction whatsoever.

I MEAN COME ON.

[StraitR]

None of this surprises me as Yeager and his cadre's asshattery is well documented. And we are talking about the guy who brought us the The Duel Waiver (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/12/14/james-yaeger-is-so-sick-of-being-called-a-coward-that-he-will-challenge-you-to-a-duel/) because he was tired of his feelings being hurt.

[YVK]

Sac Valley is one of my favorite ranges to teach at.

I took a couple of classes there. At one of them the temp was at 100 degrees before 10 am. If I had to wear a helmet, I would tap out before anyone touched me.

[GJM]

I took a couple of classes there. At one of them the temp was at 100 degrees before 10 am. If I had to wear a helmet, I would tap out before anyone touched me.

Yeah, but wasn't it a dry heat?

[Tamara]

Yeah, but wasn't it a dry heat?

So's an oven.

[Ed L]

As I said on T's fazeboog:

1) For being so close to their targets (literally bad breath distance), they're shooting like old people fornicate.


They do this for safety reasons because there are people downrange taking pictures between the target frames (sarcasm intended).

[PPGMD]

As I said on T's fazeboog:

1) For being so close to their targets (literally bad breath distance), they're shooting like old people fornicate.

To be fair lots of tactical classes are done at ranges shorter than most people would practice at.

[Tamara]

To be fair lots of tactical classes are done at ranges shorter than most people would practice at.

Yeah, but "Why are they shooting so slowly at that range?" was the question.

[Sam]

I wish I still regularly rented the pistol bays at Sac Valley.

[Savage Hands]

I wish I still regularly rented the pistol bays at Sac Valley.


Same here, but you can come with the shop when they go.

[pdb]

To be fair lots of tactical classes are done at ranges shorter than most people would practice at.

This is fine for pistol work, you could probably be fine with a 10 yard range. But to understand the problems of AR sight offset, you really need to at least vary the range between muzzle contact and around 25 yards for the first intersection. Doing all the work within 25 teaches you dumb things.

[dgg9]

This is all a shame. Yeager aside, TR used to be a mainstream, reputable training group with a solid cadre of instructors.

[Lon]

Speculation on my part, but I'd imagine that is at the beginning of the class. I know when I took FR many years ago we started up close (offset was addressed) and personal and then moved back as the course progressed. This was pre-TR craziness.

[LittleLebowski]

I never really seriously considered TR for training. The ND during transition-to-secondary drills (on the first day of a class and done with rifles still in Condition One) as recounted on ARF (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_19/230811_Tactical_Response___Dont_waste_your_time_or _your_money.html) seemed like a red flag that Stevie Wonder couldn't miss.

From the ARF thread (first day of the class):


We shot pistol for about 30 minutes at the five yard range and were told to safe the pistol before reholstering. We then fired about 100 rds through our main weapons into a piece of paper from 5 yards recharged our mags and then we went into transitions from main weapon to secondary and we were told to switch the rifle to safe before letting it hang and going for the pistol again. We were about 1.5 hrs into the class when we started doing transitions.

[Tamara]

Get off the X and take a knee.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN3XLyP2W4

[LittleLebowski]

The charging handle/overhand rack thing...sigh.

[Peally]

Get off the X and take a knee.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN3XLyP2W4

Might want to lose 60 pounds while we're at it.

[LittleLebowski]

How much will it cost to get extra time and a burning desire for improvement, and how much for next day delivery?

About tree-fitty.

[orionz06]

Might want to lose 60 pounds while we're at it.

He did.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[PPGMD]

I am curious about which instructor it was. Was it one of the new AIs, was it Jay, or was it Yeager himself?


This is fine for pistol work, you could probably be fine with a 10 yard range. But to understand the problems of AR sight offset, you really need to at least vary the range between muzzle contact and around 25 yards for the first intersection. Doing all the work within 25 teaches you dumb things.

I seem to remember going back to 25 yards in fighting rifle, but it has been a while, and I took all three fighting rifle classes as one big block.

[pdb]

This is all a shame. Yeager aside, TR used to be a mainstream, reputable training group with a solid cadre of instructors.

One thing Yeager continues to excel at is spawning other, better training companies when his AIs get tired of his nonsense and quit to hang their own shingle up.

[MD7305]

Thank you P-F.com for saving me from getoffthex.com 5yrs and 1mo ago.

Sincerely,
Guy who didn't know what he didn't know (then).

[PPGMD]

Thank you P-F.com for saving me from getoffthex.com 5yrs and 1mo ago.

Sincerely,
Guy who didn't know what he didn't know (then).

Getoffthex has been ghost town for years now.

I think it was a victim of Facebook, like many of the smaller internet forums.

[LittleLebowski]

Getoffthex has been ghost town for years now.

I think it was a victim of Facebook, like many of the smaller internet forums.

Strangely enough, on GetOffTheX there's no mention of a pistol class in Sacramento on that date, just the Fighting Rifle class the day after. Odd, that.

[Adam78]

Strangely enough, on GetOffTheX there's no mention of a pistol class in Sacramento on that date, just the Fighting Rifle class the day after. Odd, that.

http://www.getoffthex.com/topic/fighting-pistol-2-17-2-18-2016-sacremento-ca

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.getoffthex.com/topic/fighting-pistol-2-17-2-18-2016-sacremento-ca

Thanks, I stand corrected.

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like the instructor with the ND was one of these three: "Dave, Jay, and Tim."

[Lon]

Thanks, I stand corrected.

That review made my head hurt.

[Caboose]

Get off the X and take a knee.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN3XLyP2W4

Hang on a sec. Is that an ND at about 1:25 right at the bottom of the stroke on the one handed slide manipulation?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Hang on a sec. Is that an ND at about 1:25 right at the bottom of the stroke on the one handed slide manipulation?I couldn't get passed the obesity to watch the video.

[Caboose]

I couldn't get passed the obesity to watch the video.

You don't have to rub it in that you're smarter than me.

[Luke]

This can't be real... Those videos have got to be fake. People actually pay top dollar for that?

[GJM]

I couldn't get passed the obesity to watch the video.

That is some really funny stuff.

[scw2]

Why do they spin around completely. I understand the idea of scan/assess, but that slow twirl seems silly. Is that something that's normally taught in the military or in other training classes?

[Chuck Haggard]

Why do they spin around completely. I understand the idea of scan/assess, but that slow twirl seems silly. Is that something that's normally taught in the military or in other training classes?

No, it's an exclusive feature of TR training...............

[Ed L]

I couldn't get passed the obesity to watch the video.

That's mean and irrelevant. Being overweight is the least of the guy's problems.

[David S.]

Hang on a sec. Is that an ND at about 1:25 right at the bottom of the stroke on the one handed slide manipulation?

Not that I saw.

ETA: Why does he keep shooting the barricade barrels?

[Cookie Monster]

No, it's an exclusive feature of TR training...............

I am trying to remember but I think a 360 scan was taught at a Suarez class I took and somehow I don't remember it looking or being as silly as the video... Or maybe I am just sleep deprived and thinking about my ballet training...

[HopetonBrown]

That's mean and irrelevant. Being overweight is the least of the guy's problems.
Number 1 killer in America.

[BehindBlueI's]

Why do they spin around completely. I understand the idea of scan/assess, but that slow twirl seems silly. Is that something that's normally taught in the military or in other training classes?

It was certainly not part of my military training, but I wasn't high speed OR low drag. We are taught to scan on the LE range but it does not involve pitter-pattering our feet around in a twirl.

[hufnagel]

Might want to lose 60 pounds while we're at it.

Nyet, Komrad! Organic Body Armor!

[hufnagel]

And, as orionz06 pointed out (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19466-Yelp-review-of-recent-Tactical-Response-class&p=415117&viewfull=1#post415117), Derek "Tex" Grebner may be a lot of things, but obese is no longer one of them. I've got a lot of respect for the dude turning that aspect of his life around. Many people in similar situations don't.

6313
(screenshot from his youtube channel)

wait that's the same guy that SERPA'd himself?

impressed I am. (coming from a in his 3rd month of married/dad bod removal program.)

[HCM]

wait that's the same guy that SERPA'd himself?

impressed I am. (coming from a in his 3rd month of married/dad bod removal program.)

Yes. The "I just fucking shot myself" guy.

[Ed L]

That's mean and irrelevant. Being overweight is the least of the guy's problems.


Number 1 killer in America.

I still maintain that being overweight is the least of Grebner's problems. Loosing weight is easier than increasing mental acuity from the levels that Grebner has demonstrated.

I tried to dance around that without being mean, but I failed. Maybe somewhere there are some noble prize winning economists chuckling about my investment decisions.

And maybe the Tex Grebner character is a complete facade. Perhaps in real life he is a Professor of Classics at WIlliam and Mary College and talks like the late William F Buckley Jr--but somehow I doubt it.

[Trooper224]

Every time I see a Tactical Response video I expect to hear someone say, "You got a pretty mouth."

[BehindBlueI's]

Every time I see a Tactical Response video I expect to hear someone say, "You got a pretty mouth."

That gives the slow sashay turn-about move a different context...

[orionz06]

And, as orionz06 pointed out (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19466-Yelp-review-of-recent-Tactical-Response-class&p=415117&viewfull=1#post415117), Derek "Tex" Grebner may be a lot of things, but obese is no longer one of them. I've got a lot of respect for the dude turning that aspect of his life around. Many people in similar situations don't.

6313
(screenshot from his youtube channel)

Yup. I mean by all means continue to shit all over the guy but if we look at it objectively and negate feelings the dude has made a complete 180.

[Buckshot]

Not that I saw.

ETA: Why does he keep shooting the barricade barrels?

You obviously have never been assaulted by a barricade barrel on the mean streets, my good man!

[DMF13]

Number 1 killer in America.+1

I'm always amazed at the number of people who obsess over preparing for a very unlikely violent encounter with a firearm, but won't spend a fraction of that time to eat just a little better, and get a bit of exercise.

Here are the top 10 causes of death from the 2009 data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Homicide isn't even in the top ten, and if you look at the preliminary data for 2011, it's not even in the top 15, and you can add hypertension as another leading cause of death.

Four of the top ten, and five of the top 15, (heart disease, strokes, diabetes, nephrosis, hypertension), with heart disease as NUMBER ONE, are directly affected by lifestyle choices of diet and exercise.

[DMF13]

I still maintain that being overweight is the least of Grebner's problems. Loosing weight is easier than increasing mental acuity from the levels that Grebner has demonstrated.

I tried to dance around that without being mean, but I failed. Maybe somewhere there are some noble prize winning economists chuckling about my investment decisions.

And maybe the Tex Grebner character is a complete facade. Perhaps in real life he is a Professor of Classics at WIlliam and Mary College and talks like the late William F Buckley Jr--but somehow I doubt it.Sorry sir, but there is a bit of irony in this rant, when you incorrectly say "loosing," rather than "losing," and "noble prize," rather than "Nobel Prize." :p

[Ed L]

Sorry sir, but there is a bit of irony in this rant, when you incorrectly say "loosing," rather than "losing," and "noble prize," rather than "Nobel Prize." :p

English professors are laughing at me, too.

[GardoneVT]

+1

I'm always amazed at the number of people who obsess over preparing for a very unlikely violent encounter with a firearm, but won't spend a fraction of that time to eat just a little better, and get a bit of exercise.

Here are the top 10 causes of death from the 2009 data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Homicide isn't even in the top ten, and if you look at the preliminary data for 2011, it's not even in the top 15, and you can add hypertension as another leading cause of death.

Four of the top ten, and five of the top 15, (heart disease, strokes, diabetes, nephrosis, hypertension), with heart disease as NUMBER ONE, are directly affected by lifestyle choices of diet and exercise.

Breaking News!

Be on the lookout for these fugitives from justice, cretins who have stalked the land.
Known by the streetname "Heart Attack" (Legal Name Myocardial Infarction) and Diabeeus (Legal Name Diabetes) , these thugs are frequently seen afflicting many members of the shooting community and average Americans all around us.
If these suspects are seen, notify your local gymnasium or medical professional for immediate tactical intervention.

Suspects are considered unarmed but very dangerous.

[HopetonBrown]

Sorry sir, but there is a bit of irony in this rant, when you incorrectly say "loosing," rather than "losing," and "noble prize," rather than "Nobel Prize." :p
Autocorrect is a cruel mistress.

[Hambo]

Did I miss the beginning of PFestivus? :(

[Chuck Haggard]

I am trying to remember but I think a 360 scan was taught at a Suarez class I took and somehow I don't remember it looking or being as silly as the video... Or maybe I am just sleep deprived and thinking about my ballet training...

I meant the selfie from downrange. The AI dude on the video even said so, right on the video...............:p

[Trooper224]

What's an AI, Assistant Instructor or Artificial Intelligence? Jeez, you people and your acronyms. Admittedly, Yeager bomb and Tactical Response could use a bit of the latter.

[HopetonBrown]

What's an AI, Assistant Instructor or Artificial Intelligence? Jeez, you people and your acronyms. Admittedly, Yeager bomb and Tactical Response could use a bit of the latter.
Adjunct Instructor

[jondoe297]

First, I don't think Yeager has taught classes on the road in quite a while.

Second, I am not sure that having his NRA instructor certificates revoked would mean anything. He would likely continue to teach and wear it as a badge of honor.

In most places there is no legal requirements to be met to become a firearms instructor. Shooting clubs and and facilities may impose their own requirements. As I wrote in my last post, while there may indeed be instructors out there who should not be teaching, I am afraid that if there were any type of legal oversight it would be harnessed by antigun politicians and groups to make it harder to train and to restrict effective training.

First, from the review I read of the class, it sounded like he was present. If he was not, whichever "instructor" it was should have their NRA instructor certification revoked, if they possess one.

Second, it would subtract from his already low credibility. In addition to being that guy that had his CHP suspended for running his mouth about killing people, he'd have the suspension of his NRA credentials on his public relations plate.

I'm aware of every element of your third point. My point is that he lists an NRA instructor certification among his qualifications, and I for one, would like to him lose it for all the retard unsafe shit he advocates. Would it stop, or even slow him down? Of course not, but again, one more thing on his PR plate.
Of course then the NRA would likely lose the renewal fees of his legions of nutswingers.

[TCinVA]

It wouldn't be the first time he's listed a certification he doesn't have.

[GardoneVT]

One of these days, someone with a press badge and a working internet connection is going to call up one of these videos. When that happens, antis nationwide will commemorate it as a holiday.

Just consider the impact it will have when Joe and Jane Public see photographers standing down range five yards in front of rifles shooting live ammo in an "official training class certified by the NRA". The "conversation" will shift from Protecting Kids from Gun Violence to Protecting Society from Cleetus and his AR15. We as a group can defend against the former.

We cannot against the latter.

[PPGMD]

One of these days, someone with a press badge and a working internet connection is going to call up one of these videos. When that happens, antis nationwide will commemorate it as a holiday.

Just consider the impact it will have when Joe and Jane Public see photographers standing down range five yards in front of rifles shooting live ammo in an "official training class certified by the NRA". The "conversation" will shift from Protecting Kids from Gun Violence to Protecting Society from Cleetus and his AR15. We as a group can defend against the former.

We cannot against the latter.

You are making the assumption that people outside the gun industry even remotely have a clue about gun safety.

[joshs]

First, from the review I read of the class, it sounded like he was present. If he was not, whichever "instructor" it was should have their NRA instructor certification revoked, if they possess one.

Second, it would subtract from his already low credibility. In addition to being that guy that had his CHP suspended for running his mouth about killing people, he'd have the suspension of his NRA credentials on his public relations plate.

I'm aware of every element of your third point. My point is that he lists an NRA instructor certification among his qualifications, and I for one, would like to him lose it for all the retard unsafe shit he advocates. Would it stop, or even slow him down? Of course not, but again, one more thing on his PR plate.
Of course then the NRA would likely lose the renewal fees of his legions of nutswingers.

As long as he doesn't try to put NRA's imprimatur on non-NRA classes and he isn't otherwise violating any of the terms of his certifications, I don't see what he would get revoked for. While I don't agree with some of the stuff he teaches, I think he is a capable instructor who would have not problem teaching any of the NRA courses he is certified to teach. Note that his CHP was wrongfully suspended, the state cannot restrict the exercise of conduct protected by the Second Amendment for speech that is protected by the First Amendment.

[GardoneVT]

You are making the assumption that people outside the gun industry even remotely have a clue about gun safety.

I don't need to be an SCCA competitor to realize driving the wrong way down an interstate is stupid.

[HopetonBrown]

One of these days, someone with a press badge and a working internet connection is going to call up one of these videos. When that happens, antis nationwide will commemorate it as a holiday.

The "just wait until the anti's get a look at this" is a tired trope.

[Tamara]

Note that his CHP was wrongfully suspended, the state cannot restrict the exercise of conduct protected by the Second Amendment for speech that is protected by the First Amendment.

I've heard the opinion (from someone who would know) that he probably could have been charged under TCA 39-17-308 and 39-17-309, but since he wasn't, they had to give him back his toter's permit. Indiana, while "shall issue" like Tennessee, still has "proper person" language in the code, which could be invoked in a similar context.

(Also, TN issues HCPs, not CHPs. They don't give an F whether you C or not. ;) )

[PPGMD]

I don't need to be an SCCA competitor to realize driving the wrong way down an interstate is stupid.

Not really, they understand that because they are drivers. Look at stop signs, how many people really understand how a four way stop sign is supposed to work?

And then look at gun safety in movies, or how they are handled by complete newbies.

[GardoneVT]

Not really, they understand that because they are drivers. Look at stop signs, how many people really understand how a four way stop sign is supposed to work?

And then look at gun safety in movies, or how they are handled by complete newbies.

Like Keanu Reeves in John Wick, right?

[PPGMD]

Like Keanu Reeves in John Wick, right?

Watch it again (I just watched it for the first time last night), there is a close up of him picking up his USP off the table. His finger goes right to the trigger.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This is still depressing to watch.

I'm really questioning if I got sold a pile of b.s. in the classes I took 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't think I did...but now...sigh.

I have done classes with other instructors since then and don't think I embarrass myself. Nobody has kicked me off a range for unsafe practices...

But to see this kind of behavior and the results...

I'm just going to chalk it up to "sometimes people change" because I just don't know what else to say about this...

Really poor showing.

[PPGMD]

I'm just going to chalk it up to "sometimes people change" because I just don't know what else to say about this...

There is a descent chance that whatever instructor you took the class from wasn't there. Jay was the only instructor present at this class that would've been a regular instructor 5-6 years ago, and honestly what was said in relation to the incident don't sound like the Jay I know, so I am inclined to believe he wasn't the stomper.

And regardless of what people think of the on range activities the mindset lecture at the start of Fighting Pistol is worth the price of admission. And I will believe that their VOK kit is the most price conscious but still complete Trauma Kit available.

[joshs]

I've heard the opinion (from someone who would know) that he probably could have been charged under TCA 39-17-308 and 39-17-309, but since he wasn't, they had to give him back his toter's permit. Indiana, while "shall issue" like Tennessee, still has "proper person" language in the code, which could be invoked in a similar context.

(Also, TN issues HCPs, not CHPs. They don't give an F whether you C or not. ;) )

Lots of jurisdictions have laws that could cover constitutionally protected speech. To the extent that they do, they are unconstitutional. The true threats and incitement exceptions are very narrow. I don't see how James' video is distinguishable from Watts v. United States.

[GardoneVT]

The "just wait until the anti's get a look at this" is a tired trope.

So is complacency.

[Ed L]

This is still depressing to watch.

I'm really questioning if I got sold a pile of b.s. in the classes I took 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't think I did...but now...sigh.

I have done classes with other instructors since then and don't think I embarrass myself. Nobody has kicked me off a range for unsafe practices...

But to see this kind of behavior and the results...

I'm just going to chalk it up to "sometimes people change" because I just don't know what else to say about this...

Really poor showing.

Were you at one of the classes years ago when the photographer was downrange--the one that first made internet infamy?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Were you at one of the classes years ago when the photographer was downrange--the one that first made internet infamy?

Not that one, but they did it at fighting pistol when I took the class. Hell of a first formal pistol shooting class (other than the NRA basic).

The hell of it is...the actual pistol manipulation, trigger control & marksmanship portions of the class, I still use.

You assume the people teaching you know what is and is not safe, which is the real danger when people say "Big Boy Rules!"
There was a cop in the class, and I figured "If it is OK with him, I guess it can't be that dangerous and I guess this is what real training is like..." but risk is one thing. Unreasonable risk is quite another.

The ability to make a differentiation between the two is something that comes only with knowledge & experience.

Looking back to that time I know I didn't have the knowledge base or experience in firearms training to make the differentiation between acceptable and unacceptable risk.

If I knew then what I know now I'd have walked off the line. There is a time & way to do "stress inoculation" - but in a beginning pistol class with someone downrange, no.

I wish I had known better. Glad I do now.

[Jared]

If I knew then what I know now I'd have walked off the line. There is a time & way to do "stress inoculation" - but in a beginning pistol class with someone downrange, no.

I wish I had known better. Glad I do now.

I think we've probably all got something back there in our own personal history where we look back on it and just wish that we had known better back then.

[Tamara]

Lots of jurisdictions have laws that could cover constitutionally protected speech. To the extent that they do, they are unconstitutional. The true threats and incitement exceptions are very narrow. I don't see how James' video is distinguishable from Watts v. United States.

I think they dug up the dueling contract in the wake of the video, but I am not certain of this.

[Ed L]

Looking back to that time I know I didn't have the knowledge base or experience in firearms training to make the differentiation between acceptable and unacceptable risk.

If I knew then what I know now I'd have walked off the line. There is a time & way to do "stress inoculation" - but in a beginning pistol class with someone downrange, no.

I wish I had known better. Glad I do now.

As Jared said, many of us have done things in the past that we would not do now since we now know better.

[Ed L]

I think they dug up the dueling contract in the wake of the video, but I am not certain of this.

I once challenged Yeager to go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line. Have not heard back from him.

[TCinVA]

TR at one time taught a very conventional but solid program...but then Yeager started to get weird. He himself is not that good. I've been on the line with the dude and despite the fact that he was a full time firearms instructor at the time, the best he could manage was middle of the pack in terms of skill in a basic level AK class. Then in an AAR of the class we took together he insisted that he'd been the fastest guy in the class on a walkback drill with his awesome Big Dot AK sights. Except for two problems:

- There was no timer on the drill
- He flamed out at under 100 yards (missing) while the drill went back to over 200 where a number of us (me included) were hitting

Now there's nothing wrong with not being awesome in a class. I've sucked in plenty of classes...but I didn't go online later claiming to be more awesome than anyone else in the class thanks to my goofy sights.

Some of the stuff TR has done over the years has been really good and based on solid information, especially the medical stuff they did with Sherman House. (A fine fellow) Often that stuff is the result of somebody with legit accomplishment from the outside who comes in and offers that experience to students through TR.

Silly stuff like the "high risk contractor course", though, is the product of echo chamber thinking with no external sanity check and as a result it becomes stupid and dangerous.

There's no legit reason to have somebody taking pictures between the targets. Delta may use "downrange" drills but people in an intro handgun course ain't Delta.

There's no legit reason to have students toss their guns on the ground. Yeah, they are tools...but you know what? Everybody I know of who depends on tools for their living takes awesome care of their tools. When you're betting your life on equipment, you take care of it so that it is in peak working order when/if you need to call on it.

I'm sure bits and pieces of Yeager's program are relatively conventional and useful, but you have to pick through a lot of shit to get those bits. And those bits are available from a lot of other quality instructors in more coherent presentations without all the Rex-Kwan-Do bullshit marketing.

Everybody can make mistakes...but this wasn't merely a mistake. This was an act of supremely bad judgement from beginning to end made possible by a ridiculous attitude that Yeager radiates to the world. It's not surprising that it was one of his AI's who couldn't process that a fucktarded demo done with a loaded weapon was a stupid idea.

[Kyle Reese]

TR at one time taught a very conventional but solid program...but then Yeager started to get weird. He himself is not that good. I've been on the line with the dude and despite the fact that he was a full time firearms instructor at the time, the best he could manage was middle of the pack in terms of skill in a basic level AK class. Then in an AAR of the class we took together he insisted that he'd been the fastest guy in the class on a walkback drill with his awesome Big Dot AK sights. Except for two problems:

- There was no timer on the drill
- He flamed out at under 100 yards (missing) while the drill went back to over 200 where a number of us (me included) were hitting

Now there's nothing wrong with not being awesome in a class. I've sucked in plenty of classes...but I didn't go online later claiming to be more awesome than anyone else in the class thanks to my goofy sights.

Some of the stuff TR has done over the years has been really good and based on solid information, especially the medical stuff they did with Sherman House. (A fine fellow) Often that stuff is the result of somebody with legit accomplishment from the outside who comes in and offers that experience to students through TR.

Silly stuff like the "high risk contractor course", though, is the product of echo chamber thinking with no external sanity check and as a result it becomes stupid and dangerous.

There's no legit reason to have somebody taking pictures between the targets. Delta may use "downrange" drills but people in an intro handgun course ain't Delta.

There's no legit reason to have students toss their guns on the ground. Yeah, they are tools...but you know what? Everybody I know of who depends on tools for their living takes awesome care of their tools. When you're betting your life on equipment, you take care of it so that it is in peak working order when/if you need to call on it.

I'm sure bits and pieces of Yeager's program are relatively conventional and useful, but you have to pick through a lot of shit to get those bits. And those bits are available from a lot of other quality instructors in more coherent presentations without all the Rex-Kwan-Do bullshit marketing.

Everybody can make mistakes...but this wasn't merely a mistake. This was an act of supremely bad judgement from beginning to end made possible by a ridiculous attitude that Yeager radiates to the world. It's not surprising that it was one of his AI's who couldn't process that a fucktarded demo done with a loaded weapon was a stupid idea.

You were in that AK class too? :cool:

[TCinVA]

You were in that AK class too? :cool:


http://youtu.be/wREBD2og5iY

[pdb]

I am obviously not a lawyer, but one thing that occurred to me with people STILL making the stupid argument that it's the instructor taking all the risk, if something goes wrong and a student shoots and kills a downtrange photographer, isn't that pretty much an open and shut case of involuntary manslaughter? I wonder if TR would cover the legal bills for that. For that matter, what does their insurance policy look like?

[TCinVA]

I am obviously not a lawyer, but one thing that occurred to me with people STILL making the stupid argument that it's the instructor taking all the risk, if something goes wrong and a student shoots and kills a downtrange photographer, isn't that pretty much an open and shut case of involuntary manslaughter? I wonder if TR would cover the legal bills for that. For that matter, what does their insurance policy look like?

The law seems to place the responsibility for a bullet wound on the person who was holding the gun at the time...regardless of whether or not they had been properly prepared for that responsibility.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Besides the lawsuit, if you were a new shooter and killed the instructor - you might feel quite crappy for quite a long time. Also, social shunning would be a risk. You would be the guy who killed or maimed Instructor ABC. I know jokes will follow.

[PPGMD]

Besides the lawsuit, if you were a new shooter and killed the instructor - you might feel quite crappy for quite a long time. Also, social shunning would be a risk. You would be the guy who killed or maimed Instructor ABC. I know jokes will follow.

How big would be be honestly? Only a few Tactical Response instructors have much of a following. Gomez was probably the biggest.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Paul was a great guy! I was thinking that if you shot someone by accident - that would have some very unpleasant psychological effects. I wasn't thinking that the particular instructor would be a big deal. But you would be known for the incident. That might be minor as compared to the emotional consequences.

[Gadfly]

Besides the lawsuit, if you were a new shooter and killed the instructor - you might feel quite crappy for quite a long time. Also, social shunning would be a risk. You would be the guy who killed or maimed Instructor ABC. I know jokes will follow.

If you accidentally shot Paul Howe or Pat Mc, you would be shunned.

If you accidentally shot Yeager, you would probably never have to pay for your own drinks again. Ever.

[Chance]

I'm curious what would happen if one of Yeager's students shot someone in self-defense, and an anti-gun DA got wind of the student's training history.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That is a well known story:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/archives/300-december-2013

[Peally]

The thought of depending on Yeager to support me in a court case is more terrifying than actually going to court.

[11B10]

That's a good range. They get over 100 shooters for their IDPA matches and hold a state and regional championship there. Mike Seeklander and Max Joseph (co-creator of sul) teach out there a couple times a year.



It would appear "that range" just got a whole lot better!

[11B10]

Yeah, but "Why are they shooting so slowly at that range?" was the question.


Hey now! All of sudden "like old people fornicate" = slowly? Why, I'll have you know, missy.....

[Tamara]

Hey now! All of sudden "like old people fornicate" = slowly? Why, I'll have you know, missy.....

Actually I think it traditionally = "slowly & sloppily". *ducks* ;) :D

[Chance]

That is a well known story:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/archives/300-december-2013

Was this before, or after, some of Yeager's more notable transgressions? Discrediting his expert witness testimony seems like it would be relatively straight-forward, but I'm not an attorney.

ETA: Apparently, the shooting was in 2008, and the trial was in 2010, but the links on Armed Citizen's Network are broken. That would be well before.

[Tamara]

Was this before, or after, some of Yeager's more notable transgressions?

Like you said, this was well before the smedium-Affliction-tee-wearing, Youtube-pecadillo-having Yeager we all know today.

[11B10]

Actually I think it traditionally = "slowly & sloppily". *ducks* ;) :D

Of course I know "slowly and sloppily," but *ducks* is not computing. Must be a senior moment, eh?

[Dagga Boy]

Actually I think it traditionally = "slowly & sloppily". *ducks* ;) :D

Curious to how much field experience you have in this area to formulate this theory......:p

[Al T.]

but then Yeager started to get weird.

Yup. Trusted buddies noticed that as well.. Sad.

[Tamara]

Curious to how much field experience you have in this area to formulate this theory......:p

Research is still in its early phases, but seems to correlate.

Mind you, "slow and sloppy" does not exclude "fun". Harleys are slow and sloppy and most people riding them seem to be having a grand ol' time. :D

[HCM]

Was this before, or after, some of Yeager's more notable transgressions? Discrediting his expert witness testimony seems like it would be relatively straight-forward, but I'm not an attorney.

ETA: Apparently, the shooting was in 2008, and the trial was in 2010, but the links on Armed Citizen's Network are broken. That would be well before.

Try this one http://www.shastadefense.com/ArmedCitizenNetwork_2010-9.pdf

[JAD]

If you accidentally shot Yeager...

...you'd have a hell of a time proving it was an accident.

[Mitch]

...you'd have a hell of a time proving it was an accident.

The first one would be arguable, it'd be the follow up shots that would tough to explain.

[11B10]

Of course I know "slowly and sloppily," but *ducks* is not computing. Must be a senior moment, eh?


She does say: "I THINK it traditionally = "slowly & sloppily." Sounds like heresay to me, not actual "field experience."

[GAP]

17 pages later I'm left with the mental image of old people doing sloppy things. Like, eat apple sauce. Thanks.

[Sasage]

He finally released a statement/video for those still following

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[Peally]

"Totally wasn't a result of my stupid shit actions predictably filtering down through my company"

[CS Tactical]

James Yeager's response to the incident on our home range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9LvWtnIZpw&feature=youtu.be

[Chance]

James Yeager's response to the incident on our home range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9LvWtnIZpw&feature=youtu.be

He said the instructor has never done anything like that, then goes on to say, "We do it all the time." Did I misinterpret that?

On the student that requested a refund: "He started out being confrontational right from the beginning." Yeah, dude. You shot his truck. I too would be rather peeved.

I couldn't even finish the video. Someone please tell me if he says something else stupid.

[voodoo_man]

I couldnt finish the video either.

But remember, most people dont know better and will always accept his appeal to emotion based argument and disregard any intentional wrong doing.

Such is the industry.

[Tamara]

He said the instructor has never done anything like that, then goes on to say, "We do it all the time." Did I misinterpret that?

Nope, he really said that.

I'm telling you, this guy needs a Smithers to his Mr. Burns.

[hufnagel]

I just... I don't even... is there a snickers anywhere?
I tried to watch it, I really did, but when you open with a flat out LOOK AT THIS BABY pimping like that you've already set yourself up for failure. Then the whole Cali bashing, I just had to kill it at that point.

[11B10]

17 pages later I'm left with the mental image of old people doing sloppy things. Like, eat apple sauce. Thanks.


Let's get our mind out of the gutter here! Eating apple sauce - why, I never!

[11B10]

Well, I MADE myself watch it. I wouldn't know where to start to correct this poor guy - so I won't. It's very sad, but also extremely troubling, to think there are people who will watch this and conclude that "this looks like a guy I could learn from." Guys like him get all that publicity - anyone watching who might be trying to learn about the firearms disciplines and the gun culture would be totally alienated.

[spinmove_]

What kills me of his public statement is the following:

1.) Brings out a kids charity at the very start of it all. I'm all for being charitable, but c'mon, do that in a separate video or something.
2.) Actually apologizes about the incident and then recants said apology and says "shit happens, get over it". Well yeah, shit does happen, but you don't have to be a finger pointing asshat about it.
3.) Blames California residents. The fact that the ND happened in California is irrelevant. If it was my truck and I was there, I would have reacted the same way and possibly would have left on the spot.
4.) Blames the affected student for being confrontational from the get go. See #3.
5.) Effectively finishes the rest of the video with being more worried about his "haters" being "mean to him" than he is making a disturbingly bad situation right by anyone.
6.) Chastises people for being apprehensive on dropping a loaded and expensive firearm on the ground. Look, I get the point of the exercise. It's a tool and there may come a point in your life when you may actually have to drop your gun on solid ground. Some people do need to get over the fact that firearms aren't expensive play things that need to look pristine 24/7/365. I honestly wouldn't have a problem dropping my gun, which may be loaded, on solid ground, to participate in said exercise. What I do have a problem with is dropping a loaded firearm on a the ground, in an unsafe direction, and then stomping and grinding said firearm into the dirt and ground where there are rocks and dirt that could inadvertently manipulate the trigger. Also, who parks their vehicles down range in front of a berm? Some details of that don't exactly add up.

[Peally]

He's a fucking idiot. Not surprised.

[2alpha-down0]

Also, who parks their vehicles down range in front of a berm? Some details of that don't exactly add up.

That stood out to me, as well.

Unless you're shooting from or around vehicles (which I gather isn't typically done in Fighting Pistol) then there's no reason for the truck to be there.

Even if you are doing that kind of thing, why are you using a student's vehicle instead of a training vehicle or an instructor's car?


Sent from my iThingy using Tapawhatsit

[Sam]

World's worst apology.

[Sam]

That stood out to me, as well.

Unless you're shooting from or around vehicles (which I gather isn't typically done in Fighting Pistol) then there's no reason for the truck to be there.

Even if you are doing that kind of thing, why are you using a student's vehicle instead of a training vehicle or an instructor's car?


Sent from my iThingy using Tapawhatsit

This isn't making sense because this sign is at each bay (I took a photo of it because I was parking my truck inside the bay for easier access to ammo/other guns previous to the rule being implemented). Assuming the student followed this rule, the AD had to happen towards the parking lot area that the other pistol bays share.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/c3417beb33b74c53cb795e3a9922afd8.jpg

[spinmove_]

This isn't making sense because this sign is at each bay (I took a photo of it because I was parking my truck inside the bay for easier access to ammo/other guns previous to the rule being implemented). Assuming the student followed this rule, the AD had to happen towards the parking lot area that the other pistol bays share.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/c3417beb33b74c53cb795e3a9922afd8.jpg

Assuming this is from the same range that they were working at, I think we can then draw 1 of 2 different conclusions.

1.) The student directly did not adhere to the rules of the range and parked his vehicle in an unauthorized area.

or

2.) The ND occurred while the firearm was pointed NOT down range.

The statement released by James states that the firearm was pointed "at a berm", not necessarily "down range", as there were some vehicles between the firearm and the berm (as stated in James' video, and well, yeah, obviously). It sounds like #2 is most likely the case here, which honestly, sets a horrible example, violates the 4 safety rules, and Tim Morris (and consequently James) deserves the backlash that he's getting.

Apologizing, owning the issue, and then leaving it at that would have been the best way to handle that. Parading a charity in front of the statement, deflecting the issue by justifying "standard practices", blaming a generalized group of students, and "hating the haters", and then recanting the apology basically negates any positive effect the apology itself would have had.

Shit happens. When it does, own up to it. Don't throw a temper tantrum because it happened and make excuses for it. Children and drama queens do that. Not professionals.

[orionz06]

I watched it and have followed casually.


Dunno... Since I'm too far away to likely be their customer I'm having a hard time getting worked up. Maybe I'm just getting soft? Should I be outraged over a guy I likely won't train with?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[Peally]

I would, he makes everyone here look like a flaming retard to the average person.

[orionz06]

I would, he makes everyone here look like a flaming retard to the average person.

How does he make everyone on this forum look bad?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[Tamara]

"Outrage" is such a strong word.

[Peally]

How does he make everyone on this forum look bad?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

He's more public than any competent man ever will be. Pasted all over the TV on multiple occasions, all over YouTube, all over the internet in general. Yeager is literally the face of the gun community to legions of people. Personally I'd like him ridden out on a rail of shame and never spoken of in a serious sense again, but that's just me.

[Chance]

Since I'm too far away to likely be their customer I'm having a hard time getting worked up. Maybe I'm just getting soft? Should I be outraged over a guy I likely won't train with?

Yes, "outrage" is not the right word. For me, it's the fatigue of headdesking after seeing a pit stain of an individual repeatedly take advantage of well-meaning people, then go on to deride naysayers or anyone attempting to interject logic, all the while insisting he's somehow the real victim. I'm not mad about, it just gets really, really old.

[Josh Runkle]

...you'd have a hell of a time proving it was an accident.

Especially for a dude who already has a pre-written dueling waiver.

[Tamara]

Pop quiz, hotshots...


Nobody ever went _____ underestimating the taste of the ______________.
_____ and his money are soon _____.
There's a ______ born every ______.


Fill in the blanks. Ready? Go.

[rob_s]

I truly don't understand how anyone winds up in a Yeager, or TR, class. Whether 5 years ago or today, what is the attraction? If you simply google his name, there has been no shortage of detractors from the beginning. Even if they are ALL lies, there are literally dozens of instructors WITHOUT the drama to choose from. It makes me wonder if people who choose to train there aren't attracted to the drama in some way.

[Josh Runkle]

I truly don't understand how anyone winds up in a Yeager, or TR, class. Whether 5 years ago or today, what is the attraction? If you simply google his name, there has been no shortage of detractors from the beginning. Even if they are ALL lies, there are literally dozens of instructors WITHOUT the drama to choose from. It makes me wonder if people who choose to train there aren't attracted to the drama in some way.

Yeah, but you can't operate operatingly as an operator at the classes of the other instructors you reference.

[Drang]

I can understand Joe Sixpack seeing that there's a class at the local range and signing up without doing the research.

I can't understand a range/club scheduling Yeager to teach a class at their facility.

[spinmove_]

I can understand Joe Sixpack seeing that there's a class at the local range and signing up without doing the research.

I can't understand a range/club scheduling Yeager to teach a class at their facility.

Yeager attracts a certain demographic with his schtick that, I think, will never go away. It's been said before, the dude is all over the place (News, TV, YouTube, Facebook, etc.) which will give him press (good or bad) which in turn will attract attention. The more widespread attention you garner, the more of your target demographic you'll ultimately reach. It's literally a McDonald's-esque system that will self-perpetuate until he either retires or somehow self-destructs. Just because you don't fall into that demographic doesn't necessarily mean that the demographic isn't there. I strongly dislike Kanye West, yet the dude is somehow massively popular, has widespread fame, and makes ridiculous sums of money. Because of Kanye's schtick, I just talked about him (positively or negatively) thus perpetuating the system.

[Peally]

There are droves of what I'd call "tactitards" willing to spend thousands and defend him to the death.

[Peally]

Pop quiz, hotshots...


Nobody ever went _____ underestimating the taste of the ______________.
_____ and his money are soon _____.
There's a ______ born every ______.


Fill in the blanks. Ready? Go.

Nobody ever went postal underestimating the taste of mayonnaise.
Jimmy Carter and his money are soon in a loving manly embrace.
There's a samurai born every blue moon.

[Josh Runkle]

Yeager, Pincus and Suarez should do a blurred out naked and afraid-style "last man standing" event that involves a remote island and a simunitions "fight to the death". It would involve them losing a ton of weight, growing longer beards and crying a lot into a diary cam in night vision mode.

[Chance]

I truly don't understand how anyone winds up in a Yeager, or TR, class.

I think it has to do with how people prioritize advice. If the first thing they hear is someone they trust saying, "Yeah, this training was awesome," then they're more likely to ignore any information to the contrary, regardless of its origin. And if the origin is from the Internet, well... nothing on the Internet is true, right?

My father was dead set on going to Front Sight at one point, after some of his biker buddies went, and came home raving about it. Every time he mentioned going all the way out there (he lives in Texas), I kept saying, "I've heard some less than flattering things about their program, and we have genuine world-class instructors down the road that I've trained with personally."

Nope. Front Sight.

[Dagga Boy]

Yeager, Pincus and Suarez should do a blurred out naked and afraid-style "last man standing" event that involves a remote island and a simunitions "fight to the death". It would involve them losing a ton of weight, growing longer beards and crying a lot into a diary cam in night vision mode.

They would combine forces and rewire the camera into a you tube channel and all three keistered in smart phones to update Facebook. Their likes go viral.

[JDB]

I think it has to do with how people prioritize advice. If the first thing they hear is someone they trust saying, "Yeah, this training was awesome," then they're more likely to ignore any information to the contrary, regardless of its origin. And if the origin is from the Internet, well... nothing on the Internet is true, right?

My father was dead set on going to Front Sight at one point, after some of his biker buddies went, and came home raving about it. Every time he mentioned going all the way out there (he lives in Texas), I kept saying, "I've heard some less than flattering things about their program, and we have genuine world-class instructors down the road that I've trained with personally."

Nope. Front Sight.

That drives me nuts. Same dynamic at my local range, and TONS of Front Site fans. Its always the same thing...all these Front Site grads that rave about the place, go back year after year. Yet their skills are, to a man, quite low.

I figure my best arguement is demonstrate much higher competance. And politely suggest other training.
However, at least the Front Site folks are safer than the untrained.

[Tamara]

Most people do not use Google to search for objective reviews of a good or service they are considering purchasing. Instead, they use Google to search for reviews telling them how good and awesome they are for spending their money on the good or service they already purchased impulsively. If they run across negative reviews, they must shout those down, because otherwise they might be an idiot who has foolishly wasted money on junk.

[HCM]

Yeager, Pincus and Suarez should do a blurred out naked and afraid-style "last man standing" event that involves a remote island and a simunitions "fight to the death". It would involve them losing a ton of weight, growing longer beards and crying a lot into a diary cam in night vision mode.

I'm pretty sure that would end with Suarez killing and eating the other two.

[rob_s]

Most people do not use Google to search for objective reviews of a good or service they are considering purchasing. Instead, they use Google to search for reviews telling them how good and awesome they are for spending their money on the good or service they already purchased impulsively. If they run across negative reviews, they must shout those down, because otherwise they might be an idiot who has foolishly wasted money on junk.

I get that after the fact. That seems to be the primary function of forums, where people spend most of their time convincing other people to spend money on the same things they did in order to validate their own spending. Happens here all the time.

What I don't get is how anyone can search an instructor's name, come up with a bunch of negative commentary, and think "yeah, that's the first guy I should get ninja training from" without having spent a dime.

[CCT125US]

Yeager, Pincus and Suarez should do a blurred out naked and afraid-style "last man standing" event that involves a remote island and a simunitions "fight to the death". It would involve them losing a ton of weight, growing longer beards and crying a lot into a diary cam in night vision mode.

I would pay to see such a thing, and I am not ashamed to admit it.

[rob_s]

Or, perhaps, people are sharing their opinions or providing recommendations based upon their own (in some cases limited) experience -- let's call it discussion. Seems like a good thing for members of a forum to engage in. :)

You say tom-ay-to, I say tom-ah-to

[Chance]

I figure my best arguement is demonstrate much higher competance. And politely suggest other training.

I think that's the only thing you can do. Unless you demonstrate it right in front of the person, they will rationalize it away. I'm sure there's a term for it, but the bias people have towards their first exposure to "the truth" is pretty powerful. I, myself, had to badger my father over, and over (and over) before he abandoned his affinity for the school.


Instead, they use Google to search for reviews telling them how good and awesome they are for spending their money on the good or service they already purchased impulsively. If they run across negative reviews, they must shout those down, because otherwise they might be an idiot who has foolishly wasted money on junk.

That's an interesting observation, but I don't think someone has to actually invest money before they become defensive. If they simply subscribe to one "line of thought" (e.g., one instructor's opinion), then they will be equally vocal in detesting you. And if all of your friends agree that something is awesome, then you're just a weirdo for disagreeing, right? Everyone you trust is chanting, "One of us. One of us. One of us."

I've been told it's not so bad: at some point, you just feel warm, and go to sleep.

[LtDave]

That drives me nuts. Same dynamic at my local range, and TONS of Front Site fans. Its always the same thing...all these Front Site grads that rave about the place, go back year after year. Yet their skills are, to a man, quite low.

I figure my best arguement is demonstrate much higher competance. And politely suggest other training.
However, at least the Front Site folks are safer than the untrained.

Hope you like robocalls from the good Doctor for a year or two afterwards.
Never again...

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm sure there's a term for it, but the bias people have towards their first exposure to "the truth" is pretty powerful. I, myself, had to badger my father over, and over (and over) before he abandoned his affinity for the school.


It took me awhile to realize my own bias there when I was training to be a cop. When the training agreed with my military training it was right and when it deviated, it was wrong. I'm not talking about things like RoE, but things like clearing a room or sighting in a rifle. I *still* won't carry an umbrella like most other detectives because I couldn't carry an umbrella in the Army so that's the right way to do it.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'm pretty sure that would end with Suarez killing and eating the other two.

This is bad...how?

[Jared]

The cult of personality thing with prominent firearm personalities is something I've been through myself.

When I was 11 or 12, I discovered Jeff Cooper. This was the early 90's. Now, I was just a kid and all that, but the most important male figure in my life (my dad) was quite the gun nut, and my favorite tv show and movie both had protagonists with 1911's. So, I fell in love with the 1911. Now Dad hated the things, but still, I was a kid, carving my own way, and I really loved the 1911 (or Colt 45 as I knew it then). When I discovered Cooper, I just loved it. I mean, he loved the same gun I did. And I read everything of his I could get my hands on. I'm not saying that Cooper was derpy, far far from it, nor am I putting him in the same category as Yeager (again, far far from it). It's just that I understand that if someone is out there that confirms your own biases, whether they are good or bad, it's really easy to blindly follow almost anything they say.

And you know what, I STILL DO IT to an extent.

here's the proof:

1. This forum. I found it after I decided that I was more likely to have a handgun than a carbine with me in a bad situation, and realized I needed to actually learn how to shoot one better. Thing is, then and now, I shot a DA/SA, and most forums will do everything but run you off for that. One of the reasons I lurked here for a while and then joined was there was good knowledge and info about actually shooting a DA/SA well.

2. Ben Stoeger. Ben has put out some top notch books and videos to help folks get better. But the thing that put him on my radar, back in 2012, was the whole FAST wars with Vogel. What kept me paying attention was that he shot a Beretta. So, since he shot nearly the same gun as me, I paid a good bit more attention to him than I otherwise might have. That opened doors for me. Because of Ben, I discovered Enos, USPSA, and Steve Anderson. But I'll be the first to admit, had he been shooting the Tanfo back then, I might not have given his thinking as much weight as I did

3. Ernest Langdon. Again, the DA/SA thing. It helps me to have another source for good DA/SA techniques

4. Jerry Miculek. The Jerry thing is twofold. One, he shoots a revo like a boss, and I just love that, but the thing about Jerry, he always seems to be having so much fun. And that's important to me, because at my core, I think this should be FUN. That's how it started for me with Dad, and that's how I hope to hand it down to my child.

I am out of my hero worship phase in life. And I think I could choose much worse sources for information and the like than the four I listed. I'm just trying to make a point that a lot of us like to have our own biases confirmed. I do think Yeager is an idiot. I can still understand how otherwise well intending people can get sucked into his schtick though.

[11B10]

[QUOTE=Peally;417605]He's more public than any competent man ever will be. Pasted all over the TV on multiple occasions, all over YouTube, all over the internet in general. Yeager is literally the face of the gun community to legions of people. Personally I'd like him ridden out on a rail of shame and never spoken of in a serious sense again, but that's just

[hufnagel]

This is bad...how?

The indigestion might kill him too?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

That is ok. I'm not really enamored with Suarez either.

I think a lot of his ideas on how to handle the aftermath of an encounter are more f***** then a football bat.

[HCM]

That is ok. I'm not really enamored with Suarez either.

I think a lot of his ideas on how to handle the aftermath of an encounter are more f***** then a football bat.

Well he does have experience with noth side of the criminal justice system.....

[Josh Runkle]

...are more f***** then a football bat.

No joke, when I took my SARTECH II test, one of the cadre actually carried around a football bat. It was just a wooden bat with a football stuck on the end. It was hilarious when we did our night Land Nav and I couldn't see shit except for a moving football just chilling silently in the bushes a few hundred yards away with a rarely occasional red glow appearing behind it. He never let the bat out of his hands...I mean, like, he'd be on a rope system with a football bat propped over his shoulder. It is really dumb, but I still get a good laugh out of it.