Solo officers ends active-shooter incident, once again.....

[Chuck Haggard]

The more I see of these incidents the more I think I was prophetic in my advocacy of solo response as quickly as possible to shut down the bad guy.

http://heroes2us.com/2016/02/26/heroic-kansas-cop-took-on-hesston-mass-shooter-while-taking-fire/

[Trooper224]

I advocated the same thing during immediate post-Columbine training. I was called a radical and a cowboy and more or less told to sit down and shut up. Finally, everyone else is catching up.

[jnc36rcpd]

I think the formation method was probably the best quick-fix after Columbine. It was a quick fix for patrol officers and sergeants who had been told that the best response was to establish containment and wait for SWAT. That said, it should have been apparent early on that waiting for another two or three or, in our protocol, four officers to arrive, gear up, and organize into formation is not the best solution in many circumstances. Like both of you, I think solo officer entry is often the only solution.

Decision-making is probably one of the hardest things to teach in coppering or any other business. There are times to go it alone, times to wait for the beat partner who is coming in hot and two blocks out, and times to get everyone geared up and organized into teams. There are times to get the plate carrier and the rifle from the trunk, times to grab the shotgun from the roof rack, and times to go for broke with the pistol.

Unfortunately, as you two have found, agencies and people often become so winded up over the general order or the lesson plan or what the chief said at the staff meeting that any discussion of tactics becomes heresy.

Excellent job by the first cop on scene in this incident.

[GJM]

Chuck, are you saying a good response right now, beats a great response deployed a few hours from now?

[serialsolver]

That always was the problem I had. You want me to stand around waiting for folks to get their stuff together when other folks are getting killed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lon]

Chuck, are you saying a good response right now, beats a great response deployed a few hours from now?

Not Chuck, but I would say any kind and of response from the first unit on scene is better than a good response in 15 minutes. Historically, these events are over in minutes and the killing or injuring of innocents stops when the bad guys hits resistance. The rapid response team of 4 officers still takes more time than the victims have. Especially in rural areas. My agency bought into the solo response after Virginia Tech.

[Lomshek]

The more I see of these incidents the more I think I was prophetic in my advocacy of solo response as quickly as possible to shut down the bad guy.

http://heroes2us.com/2016/02/26/heroic-kansas-cop-took-on-hesston-mass-shooter-while-taking-fire/

What's amazing is that anyone looking at the record of incidences would still stick to the old "wait for back up, establish a scene commander, go in in groups" mindset when the evidence of how these end is irrefutable. Keep fighting the good fight Chuck!

[LSP552]

Chuck, are you saying a good response right now, beats a great response deployed a few hours from now?

Amazing how that works.....

Pressing the fight, even alone, takes their mind off shooting the helpless.

[FNFAN]

I advocated the same thing during immediate post-Columbine training. I was called a radical and a cowboy and more or less told to sit down and shut up. Finally, everyone else is catching up.

I got the "Tombstone Courage" speech as well. I pointed out that when Mr. Brooks coined that term as one of the 10 Deadly Errors the actual quote was:

"8. Tombstone Courage – Don’t rush in if you don’t need to. Take your time and wait for backup. Sometimes you have to go in alone. Most of the time you don’t, so wait for your partner!"

Didn't matter. Yes, is gratifying to see some vindication for the use of individual discretion.

[11B10]

I advocated the same thing during immediate post-Columbine training. I was called a radical and a cowboy and more or less told to sit down and shut up. Finally, everyone else is catching up.


After revisiting your post "a couple more big ones," and assuming that it IS you holding those "big ones," I can't believe ANYone would tell YOU to "sit down and shut up."

[voodoo_man]

First active shooter training we had locally I said im not waiting for anyone if I show up solo. I was told I would be against policy and may end up dead.

I told them that they can tell that to all the people that would be killed if I followed policy.

[El Cid]

What's amazing is that anyone looking at the record of incidences would still stick to the old "wait for back up, establish a scene commander, go in in groups" mindset when the evidence of how these end is irrefutable. Keep fighting the good fight Chuck!

I'm not surprised. People and agencies resist change. This is especially true in jurisdictions where the old way hasn't cost any lives yet. It's that absurd reinforcement where doing something wrong didn't have a negative result so the person keeps doing it because it "worked."

I know of at least one fire/rescue department in south Florida that still teaches and sticks to the "a tourniquet is a last resort" bullshit. They even removed one from the arm of a bad guy after he was shot by LE as soon as they arrived on scene. The LEO medic yelled at them to stop and they tried to lecture him. If we have people believing that crap, I don't see resistance to single officer entry as far fetched.

The good news is training specifically for active assholes (my term) is gaining momentum. Seems now I hear LEO's proclaiming they have been ALERRT certified more and more. I haven't had a chance to take the training yet so I can't say how good or bad the curriculum is.

[UNK]

All of you guys are AWESOME!

[SeriousStudent]

That is outstanding work by the responding officer. He undoubtedly saved lives by doing that.

I hope the killer is in Hell, and twirling on a spit while set on "Extra Crispy."

[Rick_ICT]

In this case, I'm not sure who the responding officer would have to answer to for charging in and taking care of business. It turns out it was the Chief of the Hesston Police Department himself who took out the trash. He hasn't been anywhere in the public eye since the incident, according to an acquaintance in the video at the link below, he's a quiet and humble man who just does his job. A hero to be sure.

It is a fairly small, nice town with low crime. I'm not sure how big their department is, and the city's website doesn't say. I would guess fewer than two dozen officers, but that is strictly a WAG.

Somewhere this morning I saw a timeline that indicated a deputy had arrived while the shooter was still outside and was shot at, then the shooter went inside and the deputy remained outside (it did not say if waiting for backup or another reason). Then the chief showed up subsequently and charged in and killed the shooter in a gun battle. However, I now cannot find that timeline. It may have been taken down because it was erroneous. Everything I find now indicates that the Chief was the first LEO on the scene. The Sheriffs department had been searching for the suspect as he had been shooting people from his vehicle on the way from Newton to Hesston.

On Tapatalk, so no fancy links:

http://ksn.com/2016/02/26/sheriff-cop-who-killed-kansas-gunman-a-tremendous-hero/

[S Jenks]

Seems now I hear LEO's proclaiming they have been ALERRT certified more and more. I haven't had a chance to take the training yet so I can't say how good or bad the curriculum is.

I went through the ALERRT Level 1 instructor course in August and we put on two 30-student classes two weeks ago. The goal in the next few years is to have almost all of the officers in our area trained up on Level 1. We are a number of small departments that, according to the collective memory, have never trained together.

Level 1 covers the "stop the killing" aspect of ASR, from approach, breaching, team movement (ranging from solo to 5-man), as well as modules on threshold eval, room entry and post-shoot protocol. It's a two-day course with Simunition scenarios during day two.

What I'm personally thrilled about is how a neighboring Chief took the initiative to set up the instructor course then commit to a long-term plan to eventually certify every municipal officer who may be responding to an AS incident in his jurisdiction. In this state, the multiple Academies are allowed to teach variations of the same theme. The Troopers would stick to diamond formations, the locals to T formations and very little emphasis was placed on solo officer response. ALERRT shows you all of those so you can figure out what works and doesn't work based on the situation.

While I can't compare it to ALICE or NTOA's AS offerings, ALERRT offers a very well-organized, structured program that covers most AS scenarios including IED awareness, patrol-level hostage rescue, etc and I have nothing but good things to say about the ALERRT instructor trainers I've met.

[11B10]

First active shooter training we had locally I said im not waiting for anyone if I show up solo. I was told I would be against policy and may end up dead.

I told them that they can tell that to all the people that would be killed if I followed policy.


Vdm - in this admittedly NO experience guy's opinion, this ^^^ is the ONLY way to cut down on the amount of victims. The very obvious problem is that you ARE alone - I can't imagine the "nuts n guts" it takes to do that! I want to expess my eternal gratitude to those that have this in them - like you.

[voodoo_man]

Vdm - in this admittedly NO experience guy's opinion, this ^^^ is the ONLY way to cut down on the amount of victims. The very obvious problem is that you ARE alone - I can't imagine the "nuts n guts" it takes to do that! I want to expess my eternal gratitude to those that have this in them - like you.

I am not going to say my balls are big enough to carry on my shoulder and I am merely speaking from a point of experience and personal knowledge of what happens when those are responsible for the correct action do nothing, or worse, follow some bullshit policy made by paper pushers.

Everyone I work with knows that if there is a hot call like that expect me not to wait and expect me not to follow policy. I've gone through this before on here once or twice so I'll keep it really short - the objective of response for any LEO during any type of active murderer call, especially where there are confirmed deaths and/or confirmed shooters/stabbers/doers, is to make sure the point of time of initial call and the point of time of the death of the doer come as close together as possible. Every single second may be someone's life that's gone, so thinking about policy, looking for ingress routes, making up plans and not being dynamic with them (ie; showing up, staging, then moving in) is the wrong answer here. It is also exactly what most PD's policies are and PD's policies do not have the best interests at heart for the public nor the officers, its all about liability. During a hot call like that, I don't give a damn about liability or policies, getting there and getting bullets into the right people is the only course of action and we are always behind the clock.

[TGS]

How many of you guys have department policies at contradiction with a single officer, immediate response?

Being new to LE, it sort of surprises me. FLETC is very big on it and the basic programs feature an active threat class, tactics sessions and scenarios; you can say what you want about FLETC, but we all valued the AS training as some of the best material in the basic program and very useful; supposedly they constantly fill their classes with state/local guys as well (they did while I was there). My agency's tactics instructors stated that our 1 and 2 man tactics are based off ALERRT, though I have no way of verifying that since I've never been to an ALERRT class. The policy for my "unit" is proactive towards an active shooter event re: immediate response, and several of our guys from a different unit were at the Navy Yard shooting. That's not even taking into account events elsewhere that I can't go into outside of work; suffice to say, we're expected to push with what we have.

So, I guess it kind of just surprises me that it's still so prevalent. It makes sense that we would be for immediate response given the crossover with some of our primary job functions, though, so my observation is probably pretty biased compared to traditional LE.

[BehindBlueI's]

How many of you guys have department policies...

We are trained to make decisions and respond based on the situation that confronts us. Beyond that, I would not discuss my department's active shooter plans and training in a public forum.

[Dagga Boy]

I got the "Tombstone Courage" speech as well. I pointed out that when Mr. Brooks coined that term as one of the 10 Deadly Errors the actual quote was:

"8. Tombstone Courage – Don’t rush in if you don’t need to. Take your time and wait for backup. Sometimes you have to go in alone. Most of the time you don’t, so wait for your partner!"

Didn't matter. Yes, is gratifying to see some vindication for the use of individual discretion.

I trained my ass off in case I ever had to go it alone. Experience and dedicated training will teach you when to go, and when to wait. Time on the job will also show you the ugly side that there are very few people that I would wait for. I got in a spat at work for awhile over canceling back ups. My Sergeant, who was like a big sister and voice of reason told me I was both setting a bad example, and hurting people's feelings when I heard who they were sending and canceled them. answer to her was the answer to a lot on these....if my back up is an added liability I have to take care of, I would rather make the problem less complex and just deal with it.
Seeing how many officers shoot, how they fight, and their intestinal fortitude.....I would not want liabilities with me. The best shifts
I was ever on were the ones where officers would get together on their own and train, would motivate each other to shoot often and work on tactics. Unfortunately, many think their day will never come, and this do not train for THAT day. I know many of the cops on this forum....these are the types of folks who will do whatever it takes to drop evil in its tracks.

[Chuck Haggard]

First active shooter training we had locally I said im not waiting for anyone if I show up solo. I was told I would be against policy and may end up dead.

I told them that they can tell that to all the people that would be killed if I followed policy.


I am a strong advocate of solo officer response when it's needed.

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

[voodoo_man]

I am a strong advocate of solo officer response when it's needed.

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

shilling!

:cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

shilling!

:cool:

My article, not my site. Also, don't get paid for articles like that. And, easier to link than retype the whole thing.

[voodoo_man]

My article, not my site. Also, don't get paid for articles like that. And, easier to link than retype the whole thing.

Was kidding.

But of course, I do agree, as I've stated previously.

[Chuck Haggard]

Was kidding.

But of course, I do agree, as I've stated previously.

Yeah, I know, just sayin

[AMC]

So here's some fun facts. The new draft General orders on use of force and firearms policy being reviewed by the Commission right now mandate that in any call involving a weapon, a supervisor must not only respond...they must get on the radio and advise the officers to create time and distance, attempt to deescalate, request additional resources, and deploy extended range impact weapons. This includes gun calls....and active shooters. I've heard Command folks protest "That's not what we meant!". But that absolutely is what the orders state. It is being raised by the union in its objectives....but it's probably going to remain as is. Good luck, San Francisco. You're gonna need it.

[jnc36rcpd]

"!-Charlie-10, I'm enroute to the shots fired call. Advise responding units to create time and distance, attempt to deescalate, request additional resources, and deploy extended range impact weapons." OK, that reads even stupider when I try to imagine reciting on the radio every time I run a call that might involve weapons.

Is there any definition of how one creates time? While this entire policy seems misguided, the thought of creating time seems more a philosophical concept than something memorialized in general orders. I understand the concept (sort of), but unless the definition is written in policy, that turn of phrase is especially foolish.

Perhaps PERF might allow us to send this elaborate message in some pre-written MDT message. Since none of them seem to have spent any time on the road, they might buy into that concept.

[Chuck Haggard]

If I could "create time" I'd likely be FAR better paid than I currently am.

[Trooper224]

Just show an active shooter the Power Point presentations these PERF types live by, that would be enough to make anyone put a gun to their own head.