NRA Certified Instructor

[voodoo_man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YW0YfyWffQ

I'd train with her...:cool:

[41magfan]

Shoooooooo ....

[Tamara]

She's so sincere that I really feel bad about laughing, but, dayummm... :eek:

I was watching and thinking "Okay, I'm not going to get fussy about the 'clip v. mag' thing. Good for the eyes and ears. Ohhh-kay, well, I guess I'd probably carry a Hi-Point in Condition 3, too. Okay, it's Teacup Weaver, but at least she's leaning into the gun..." I was all ready to go "Well, at least she's safe. Someone could probably do worse for an intro to handguns..."

And then she muzzled the bejeezus out of her off-hand on the re-holster and my willing suspension of disbelief evaporated.

[voodoo_man]

She's so sincere that I really feel bad about laughing, but, dayummm... :eek:

I was watching and thinking "Okay, I'm not going to get fussy about the 'clip v. mag' thing. Good for the eyes and ears. Ohhh-kay, well, I guess I'd probably carry a Hi-Point in Condition 3, too. Okay, it's Teacup Weaver, but at least she's leaning into the gun..." I was all ready to go "Well, at least she's safe. Someone could probably do worse for an intro to handguns..."

And then she muzzled the bejeezus out of her off-hand on the re-holster and my willing suspension of disbelief evaporated.

Witty put down, check.

See...you do it all the time! ;)

[Wondering Beard]

She's so sincere that I really feel bad about laughing, but, dayummm... :eek:

I was watching and thinking "Okay, I'm not going to get fussy about the 'clip v. mag' thing. Good for the eyes and ears. Ohhh-kay, well, I guess I'd probably carry a Hi-Point in Condition 3, too. Okay, it's Teacup Weaver, but at least she's leaning into the gun..." I was all ready to go "Well, at least she's safe. Someone could probably do worse for an intro to handguns..."

And then she muzzled the bejeezus out of her off-hand on the re-holster and my willing suspension of disbelief evaporated.

At least you tried?

[Al T.]

South Carolina...... Think I'm going to cry.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Typical NRA quality instruction.

[Dagga Boy]

Honestly....we need her. That is the future of "us". What it does point out is how badly a solid mentoring program is needed. I wish the NRA would quit sending me crap everyday and put some money into a true mentoring program with top tier instructors working with ladies like this at no cost to make everyone better.

[H&KFanNC]

Honestly....we need her. That is the future of "us". What it does point out is how badly a solid mentoring program is needed. I wish the NRA would quit sending me crap everyday and put some money into a true mentoring program with top tier instructors working with ladies like this at no cost to make everyone better.

Damn, nyeti! That's a hell of a good post/idea. I now feel guilty for what I was thinking...

On top of what I was thinking....I'm also a handgun snob.


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[voodoo_man]

Honestly....we need her. That is the future of "us". What it does point out is how badly a solid mentoring program is needed. I wish the NRA would quit sending me crap everyday and put some money into a true mentoring program with top tier instructors working with ladies like this at no cost to make everyone better.

Pipe dreams.

[nycnoob]

Honestly....we need her. That is the future of "us". What it does point out is how badly a solid mentoring program is needed. I wish the NRA would quit sending me crap everyday and put some money into a true mentoring program with top tier instructors working with ladies like this at no cost to make everyone better.

Tom is regularly in South Carolina, I took his instructor development class there. We could chip in and send her to one, if you are serious. . . .

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I give her credit for trying. Not everyone can afford what some of us have gone through. If she can get some folks to get a gun, draw it and shoot it when in trouble - that's a good thing. Given how I've seen Texans taught by 'Daddy' on the ranch, she's not bad.

As far as loading the magazine - when I took my CHL, there were older folks with a 1903 Colt 380 and they loaded the mags backwards. Maybe they went to HK school?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/08/hk-bullets-real-story/

Folks like her should be supported.

[Trooper224]

I have no words and my eyes are burning. I don't fault her and her intentions are good, but this is yet another example of how Youtube is an excellent proponent for gun control

[Dallasmed]

While everyone is laughing at the unintentional derp here, this is the community that truly needs firearms for self defense. If you can easily afford something better than a hi-point than survival probably isn't a daily reality for you.

[voodoo_man]

I just want to post something that is non-standard food for thought and based on personal experience, but on topic.

There are two ranges in my AO (indoor, 20y max). Once in a while I go there before/after shift to work some bugs out or to get my drills in for the day, the owners know me and I have no issues with the management.

On several occasions I have been at these ranges and have seen instructors, like the nice lady in the video, giving lessons to people. Once you get past the abortion of the English language they were using to communicate you start to understand that they aren't there to further our way of life / 2A / etc. You quickly realize that many of the people who find instructors like this are usually the type of people you read about in the news. That is not to say that the instructors are bad people, they are trying to make money doing something that just happens to be favorable for gun rights and the 2nd Amendment overall. The clientele they attract are most definitely not of the same mind.

The liability of such a circumstance is also very great. Just because someone shows up to the range with a pistol, or shows up after paying an instructor to take a class with them and is given a firearm by the instructor, does not mean they are legally allowed to have a firearm. Then imagine the liability of teaching a criminal how to use a firearm effectively? Not just financial but the moral and ethical implications?

[hufnagel]

I've had multiple people tell me I should teach, based on the 'intro' I give them when I take them shooting for the first time. maybe it's time I get off my ass and do something about it. My biggest problem is I don't like NRA's 3 rules as replacement for cooper's 4 rules. I guess it's time I just suck on the lemon and get that little card.

[hufnagel]

I just want to post something that is non-standard food for thought and based on personal experience, but on topic.

There are two ranges in my AO (indoor, 20y max). Once in a while I go there before/after shift to work some bugs out or to get my drills in for the day, the owners know me and I have no issues with the management.

On several occasions I have been at these ranges and have seen instructors, like the nice lady in the video, giving lessons to people. Once you get past the abortion of the English language they were using to communicate you start to understand that they aren't there to further our way of life / 2A / etc. You quickly realize that many of the people who find instructors like this are usually the type of people you read about in the news. That is not to say that the instructors are bad people, they are trying to make money doing something that just happens to be favorable for gun rights and the 2nd Amendment overall. The clientele they attract are most definitely not of the same mind.

The liability of such a circumstance is also very great. Just because someone shows up to the range with a pistol, or shows up after paying an instructor to take a class with them and is given a firearm by the instructor, does not mean they are legally allowed to have a firearm. Then imagine the liability of teaching a criminal how to use a firearm effectively? Not just financial but the moral and ethical implications?

warning: Snarky me time...

Yea but, if you teach them to shoot properly, they'll hit less innocent bystanders AND they'd reduce the criminal gene pool more effectively. Think of it as teaching cancer to eat itself instead of the host body. I kind of have to look at that as at worst a chaotic neutral and at best a mild win.

[voodoo_man]

warning: Snarky me time...

Yea but, if you teach them to shoot properly, they'll hit less innocent bystanders AND they'd reduce the criminal gene pool more effectively. Think of it as teaching cancer to eat itself instead of the host body. I kind of have to look at that as at worst a chaotic neutral and at best a mild win.

Says the guy whose never had a hood rat take a shot at them....;)

[hufnagel]

Says the guy whose never had a hood rat take a shot at them....;)

Hey, there's pro's and con's in everything. :D

Plus think of it this way, if they were better shots they'd be taught to aim center of mass, where your body armor is. At least there'd be no more dick shots. :eek:

[jondoe297]

I'd say we found a partner for "Lucien Black" at "Voda Consulting", but she seems like a nice person, whereas Mr. Black is a raging prick who thinks the entire system is inferior to his elite gunfighting skills.

[Chance]

Not just financial but the moral and ethical implications?

I'm reluctant to look at her demeanor and say, "Yeah, she'd knowingly train criminals."

[voodoo_man]

I'm reluctant to look at her demeanor and say, "Yeah, she'd knowingly train criminals."

Never said shed knowingly train criminals. Just pointed out that people with ill intent may opt to train with her...

[baddean]

Never said shed knowingly train criminals. Just pointed out that people with ill intent may opt to train with her...
Ummm.... Isn't it possible that people with ill intent could seek training from any of us?

[MichaelD]

Tom is regularly in South Carolina, I took his instructor development class there. We could chip in and send her to one, if you are serious. . . .

I'll second this idea, and I have $20 I'll put up toward the cause, too. Anyone want to set up a GoFundMe or such?

[BehindBlueI's]

Says the guy whose never had a hood rat take a shot at them....;)

But that hood rat was probably shot at by some other hood rat before that, so.....

[baddean]

Typical NRA quality instruction.
I have noticed the negative connotation associated with NRA CI used a number of times here on PF over the years.
I became a NRA CI so I could be involved in training others in firearms use. I enjoy firearms and I enjoy helping people who desire to learn. I needed that cert or a OPOTA cert in my state to teach initially.
As a NRA CI I have been involved as an assistant trainer with a NRA Certified Training Counselor during a number of instructor level classes over the years.
The lesson plan of an instructor level NRA class does not allow for individual instruction on gun handling, or shooting. It (the lesson plan) makes an assumption that you as the student have a solid background in gun handling, shooting, and unfortunately teaching.
Those of you that have taken this class know that a large portion of the class was devoted to attempting to teach you how to "teach". What elementary school teachers go to college for several years for this class tries to do in one or two days.
Many teaching these instructor level classes fall into the same trap that the concealed carry instructors fall into. They simply don't know when or won't tell a student that this isn't for them.
We've had more than our share of students attend an instructor level class who just couldn't speak in front of other students. That makes it difficult for them to effectively "teach". We've had more than our share of students that couldn't hit a barn if they were in it or displayed poor gun handling skills. I don't think that NRA CIs are typically lacking, I think that the Training Counselors who put these classes on typically don't weed out the students who should not be considered as "instructors".
I took several "advanced" classes myself before deciding to become involved in teaching others. I knew there were things I had to fix before continuing. I still take classes from other instructors as a student to enhance my gun handling and defensive skills and to hopefully improve my own instructing skills. Whether I am a good or effective instructor I leave for others to decide. I know that I very much enjoy helping others learn.
NRA CIs around the country, in many cases, might be the first contact that non-shooters or new shooters have with structured firearms information. We should stand behind them and encourage them to continue their own education and training.
When any of us started out as instructors we needed some sort of credibility to display that we made an effort to know what we were doing. If we didn't have the years of experience then we needed documented certification that we made the effort to be effective in teaching the subject matter at hand.
I applaud the lady in the video for the effort and sincerity that she is displaying. I would, however, suggest that she seek more instruction herself before continuing.

[voodoo_man]

Ummm.... Isn't it possible that people with ill intent could seek training from any of us?

Of course, but wouldn't you be a little more questionable of certain people asking for training than others?

[voodoo_man]

But that hood rat was probably shot at by some other hood rat before that, so.....

Law of nature and all that jazz.

[Dagga Boy]

Never said shed knowingly train criminals. Just pointed out that people with ill intent may opt to train with her...

Honestly, there is not a single gang banger I ever met who would pay a female NRA instructor of any ilk to teach them to shoot. Doesn't fit the culture. Bangers train, they go shoot, and are often taught by the older seasoned guys who are like the "Sergeant at Arms" of their criminal enterprise.

The reality is there are many groups living in the urban world who are not from any sort of gun culture. Never had relatives who were cops, soldiers, ranchers, hunters, etc. Some are from groups that have lived a wholly non-gun urban existence, others are immigrants from non-gun cultures. The best thing that can happen for these folks is that once they place a firearm in their home, they get some good training. Unfortunately, there is a ton of bad training out there. I wish the NRA would use similar standards to all their training as the training in the Law Enforcement Activities Division. I have been in LEAD classes where a solid 25-30% of the students did not meet the standard and were not given certificates. If the NRA was smart, they would hire Tom and Lynn to develop a program for them on how to train folks to properly teach basic fundamental based firearms use for personal protection.

[baddean]

Of course, but wouldn't you be a little more questionable of certain people asking for training than others?

I would. I guess technically that's profiling. Not that I completely disagree with that.

[JAD]

Tom is regularly in South Carolina, I took his instructor development class there. We could chip in and send her to one, if you are serious. . . .

In... For Lynn.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Ummm.... Isn't it possible that people with ill intent could seek training from any of us?

I've taken a few classes where carry permit or other background verified creds were prerequisites to attending. I think this is a growing issue and I hope it is a continuing trend where applicable.

I don't want to be sharing the range with a violent felon if it is at all preventable.


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[Kyle Reese]

I've taken a few classes where carry permit or other background verified creds were prerequisites to attending. I think this is a growing issue and I hope it is a continuing trend where applicable.

I don't want to be sharing the range with a violent felon if it is at all preventable.


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Once I get around to hanging my shingle, creds, carry permits or a background check will be required for admittance.

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[Chance]

I'll second this idea, and I have $20 I'll put up toward the cause, too. Anyone want to set up a GoFundMe or such?

If someone contacts her, and she says she's willing, I'll pitch in.

[jondoe297]

I wish the NRA would use similar standards to all their training as the training in the Law Enforcement Activities Division. I have been in LEAD classes where a solid 25-30% of the students did not meet the standard and were not given certificates.

I do too, but that would dry up the cash cow for the TC's. That's where most of the blame for that trainwreck video lies, with the Training Counselor who signed off on her. Being an NRA TC can be a major money-maker for you, if you are ok with being a certificate mill.

As a side note for everyone else: That video was posted four years ago. She may have hung it up already. Also, if you click on the youtube account and look at the other videos they post and "like", it gives you an idea of what she/they are all about: Hip Hop culture and Money. I'm not chipping in jack shit to further that.

[Wendell]

I give her credit for trying. Not everyone can afford what some of us have gone through. If she can get some folks to get a gun, draw it and shoot it when in trouble - that's a good thing...Folks like her should be supported.

I agree 100%.

To the crowd on this forum - and I include myself when I say this - snobbery comes naturally. Sometimes, well-intentioned though we may be, we have our heads up our own you-know-whats so far that we can't see the reality outside of our own.

In the real world, where most people have limited time, money, and interest, good enough is good enough, and, as expressed by Voltaire, Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheBestIsTheEnemyOfTheGood)

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJuq3HfcChM) is one of the best videos that almost noone will ever watch, because of snobbery, but we all should watch it.

In it, nerdgonesouth tries to remind us of what is important.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJuq3HfcChM

[voodoo_man]

I would. I guess technically that's profiling. Not that I completely disagree with that.

...theres nothing wrong with profiling. Its when its not based solely on one specific aspect when others factors should play a part in that process.

[baddean]

...theres nothing wrong with profiling. Its when its not based solely on one specific aspect when others factors should play a part in that process.

Completely agree here.

[Drang]

I do too, but that would dry up the cash cow for the TC's.
The what?

[baddean]

The what?

TC. NRA Training Counselor.
Cash Cow. Students

[Drang]

TC. NRA Training Counselor.
Cash Cow. Students

I'm gonna have to tell all the training counselors I know that they're doing it wrong.

Seriously, you think people get rich certifying other people to be NRA instructors?

[BehindBlueI's]

I've taken a few classes where carry permit or other background verified creds were prerequisites to attending.

It is a requirement for the class I teach, and while it includes a live fire portion, the guns are sort of secondary to the class.

[OnionsAndDragons]

It is a requirement for the class I teach, and while it includes a live fire portion, the guns are sort of secondary to the class.

I remember seeing that, though I couldn't work it into my schedule. Everyone had good things to say about it.


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[baddean]

I'm gonna have to tell all the training counselors I know that they're doing it wrong.

Seriously, you think people get rich certifying other people to be NRA instructors?

No, I don't think we'll get rich. You misunderstood. Good thing I've got a decent retirement plan in place and seriously enjoy what I'm doing. Hell, I'm lucky to break even most of the time. You're right that training counselors could be doing it wrong though. Many are cranking out "certified instructors" that shouldn't be. That was my point. I guess it came out sideways. If they're not cranking out "instructors" they won't have any students.

[HCM]

Our very own TCinVA did a Hi Point Challenge a while back.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2012/10/11/the-hi-point-challenge-completed/

http://pistol-training.com/?s=Hi-Point+Challenge

[Clay]

Hi-Points are fairly rare at my range, but when I see them, they always work fine, but are being operated by people with absolutely no level of safety or skill. I normally have to intervene and show them the gun works fine if you hold it correctly, or load the bullets in right. Oh, and please keep it pointed THAT WAY.

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[joshs]

I wish the NRA would use similar standards to all their training as the training in the Law Enforcement Activities Division. I have been in LEAD classes where a solid 25-30% of the students did not meet the standard and were not given certificates. If the NRA was smart, they would hire Tom and Lynn to develop a program for them on how to train folks to properly teach basic fundamental based firearms use for personal protection.

I don't work in Education & Training, but those guys have to deal with two conflicting pressures. They want to have higher standards for instructors and TCs, but there is also the problem of there being nowhere near enough instructors to satisfy the current demand for basic pistol classes. The growth rate in carry permit holders (and people carrying guns due to the return to permit less carry in some states) is simply to big for the current number of instructors to train. I will say that E&T has gotten much more serious about revoking creds where issues are brought to their attention. There was a large-scale revocation that upset a lot of people a few years ago.

[jondoe297]

I'm gonna have to tell all the training counselors I know that they're doing it wrong.

Seriously, you think people get rich certifying other people to be NRA instructors?

Get rich? No. Make a sizeable chunk of money when they run an instructor course? Yes. I know TC's also. Instructor classes fill as fast as they can book them, and the couple of TC's that I know have waiting lists for their classes.
Therein lies the problem, the NRA farms out certifying their instructors. If the NRA did it like with the LE Division, where the instructor development schools were conducted by the NRA directly, the quality would improve. Instead, once you meet the TC requirements, you apply to attend a workshop, get signed off on, now you can certify instructors. Some TC's are more "ethically grounded" than others. There are TCs that will sign off on anyone who pays the fees and sits through the class, just as there are instructors who will sign off on any student who pays the fee and sits through the class. I know one NRA Instructor, off the top of my head who didn't even sit through the class. He knew the TC, paid him the $$$ and the TC just put him on the roster for the class.
Although it sounds like I'm dogging all TC's, I'm not. Like you, I know some. Although I only think highly of one of them, I don't believe the cross section that I'm familiar with represents all TCs as a whole. I'm sure most of them care about their reputations, and certifying good instructors, but given the amount of demand for NRA Instructor schools, it only takes a handful of profit-minded TC's to delude the instructor pool. When it becomes obvious, it tends to do so in a manner that generates a lot of buzz on the internet. The video in this thread is a prime example. See also Michael Thervil aka "Lucien Black/Voda Consulting". There's a TC somewhere that signed these people off as being GTG.

[jondoe297]

I don't work in Education & Training, but those guys have to deal with two conflicting pressures. They want to have higher standards for instructors and TCs, but there is also the problem of there being nowhere near enough instructors to satisfy the current demand for basic pistol classes. The growth rate in carry permit holders (and people carrying guns due to the return to permit less carry in some states) is simply to big for the current number of instructors to train. I will say that E&T has gotten much more serious about revoking creds where issues are brought to their attention. There was a large-scale revocation that upset a lot of people a few years ago.

While on the surface that seems like a valid issue, ultimately it says "There's demand, so we have to lower our standards to keep up". I'm not ok with that when we're training people with deadly weapons. That's what the USCCA is all about, cranking out "instructors" as fast as they can, to put asses in seats as fast as they can. That shouldn't be what the NRA is all about.
I think the training counselor system wasn't intended to ever meet this level of demand, and the NRA has dropped the ball on revamping their instructor certification system, to maintain quality over quantity. As nyeti astutely noted already, NRA-LEAD has been doing it much better for a long time.

[LSP972]

Many are cranking out "certified instructors" that shouldn't be.

That's the understatement of the year.

I got what you are saying, and agree 110%. I saw it first-hand here, some years back. And it is still going on.

The thing is, one doesn't dare publicly criticize the NRA for fear of a backlash from 2A proponents; the hard-core kind who view ANY sort of compromise as outright treason.

.

[Tamara]

The thing is, one doesn't dare publicly criticize the NRA for fear of a backlash from 2A proponents; the hard-core kind who view ANY sort of compromise as outright treason.

.
The type of 2A proponents of which you speak think the NRA is a pack of sellout closet gun-grabbers and spend all their time criticizing the NRA rather than actually doing anything for the 2A outside of parading their Tapco collections through Chipotle's.

[jondoe297]

The type of 2A proponents of which you speak think the NRA is a pack of sellout closet gun-grabbers and spend all their time criticizing the NRA rather than actually doing anything for the 2A outside of parading their Tapco collections through Chipotle's.

Yep. Love the NRA or hate it, it's the largest (if not only) only reason that gun ownership is still legal.

[joshs]

While on the surface that seems like a valid issue, ultimately it says "There's demand, so we have to lower our standards to keep up". I'm not ok with that when we're training people with deadly weapons. That's what the USCCA is all about, cranking out "instructors" as fast as they can, to put asses in seats as fast as they can. That shouldn't be what the NRA is all about.
I think the training counselor system wasn't intended to ever meet this level of demand, and the NRA has dropped the ball on revamping their instructor certification system, to maintain quality over quantity. As nyeti astutely noted already, NRA-LEAD has been doing it much better for a long time.

LED instructors train a very small number of students compared to E&T. Even so, I'm pretty sure LED uses non-staff instructors to meet demand just like E&T uses TCs. It would be great if we had a sufficient number of really high-quality instructors who were willing to teach for less than $100 per student per day, but that just isn't reality. If there are a million new people each year who could use basic firearm training, but E&T can only teach 100K, I would consider that to be a much greater failure than where we currently are.

[jondoe297]

LED instructors train a very small number of students compared to E&T. It would be great if we had a sufficient number of really high-quality instructors who were willing to teach for less than $100 per student per day, but that just isn't reality. If there are a million new people each year who could use basic firearm training, but E&T can only teach 100K, I would consider that to be a much greater failure than where we currently are.
I'm aware of the number disparity between the divisions, but what's worse? Not enough instructors, or subpar instructors who represent the brand/organization badly? The NRA seems to be content with the latter. It's why I see shit like this on facebook:
6119


Even so, I'm pretty sure LED uses non-staff instructors to meet demand just like E&T uses TCs.
The lead instructor of a LE class is a staff instructor (I reserve the right to be proven wrong). The assistants, as I understand it, can be staff or contractors. Regardless, the instructor's employment status isn't the issue. It's the instructor's ability. NRA-LE won't let just any ol' swinging dick with a certification come teach. Tim and Glen will come after an LE instructor with extreme prejudice if they pull the same kind of stupid shit I see civilian-side instructors pull.

[joshs]

I'm aware of the number disparity between the divisions, but what's worse? Not enough instructors, or subpar instructors who represent the brand/organization badly?

I thought I was clear that I think that no training would be worse than the status quo. I know that E&T also takes reports that an instructor is unsafe or fails to teach material very seriously. If you know about such instructors, report them to E&T. If you want direct contact info, I can get that for you.

If you were told to develop a system to train at least 1M people per year, what would you do differently?

[LSP972]

The type of 2A proponents of which you speak think the NRA is a pack of sellout closet gun-grabbers and spend all their time criticizing the NRA rather than actually doing anything for the 2A outside of parading their Tapco collections through Chipotle's.

I am aware of those clowns. But there is another, sub-set, if you will, of idiot; more refined, to be sure, but idiots nonetheless; who brook no criticism of the NRA... at least, there is around here.

.

[jondoe297]

I thought I was clear that I think that no training would be worse than the status quo. I know that E&T also takes reports that an instructor is unsafe or fails to teach material very seriously. If you know about such instructors, report them to E&T. If you want direct contact info, I can get that for you.

If you were told to develop a system to train at least 1M people per year, what would you do differently?

And that is where you and I appear to differ, philosophically. I would rather there be insufficient instructors, than instructors who do a poor job. The NRA does not have any inherent responsibility to train gun owners. It does so as a service, which they charge for. In order to serve as many customers as possible, they sacrifice the quality of the product in an attempt to meet demand. Being that the product is safely employing a deadly weapon, that approach is dubious to me. They should spend more time on quality instructor development, and less time stressing over whether or not an instructor calls a gun a "Weapon" or a "Firearm".
When all is said and done, I suspect the endgame is less about training people than it is generating new NRA members.

As I've come to realize in a great many things in life: "It is what it is".

[jondoe297]

I am aware of those clowns. But there is another, sub-set, if you will, of idiot; more refined, to be sure, but idiots nonetheless; who brook no criticism of the NRA... at least, there is around here.

.

You aren't alone. I know the type.

[Drang]

And that is where you and I appear to differ, philosophically. I would rather there be insufficient instructors, than instructors who do a poor job.

I think one difference we have is that you are assuming that a "poor" instructor is a counter productive one.


The NRA does not have any inherent responsibility to train gun owners.

The NRA was founded for the purpose of educating/training people in firearms use.

[joshs]

And that is where you and I appear to differ, philosophically. I would rather there be insufficient instructors, than instructors who do a poor job. The NRA does not have any inherent responsibility to train gun owners. It does so as a service, which they charge for. In order to serve as many customers as possible, they sacrifice the quality of the product in an attempt to meet demand. Being that the product is safely employing a deadly weapon, that approach is dubious to me.

How is someone who gets no training going to be safer with a deadly weapon than someone who receives "poor" training?

[jondoe297]

I think one difference we have is that you are assuming that a "poor" instructor is a counter productive one.

Correct.


The NRA was founded for the purpose of educating/training people in firearms use.

I'm aware of this. I've been a member for a long time. That doesn't impart on the organization any responsibility to do so. It's the organization's choice to do it, and their choice on how they do it.

[jondoe297]

How is someone who gets no training going to be safer with a deadly weapon than someone who receives "poor" training?

Well, there's a difference between poor training and "poor" training. Poor training is just that; poor, shit, junk. "Poor" training is an implication that what I think may be poor and what you think may be poor aren't the same thing.
Michael Thervil is (or at least was) an NRA certified instructor. A TC signed off on this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6GKntzJbs

I would submit that this is counter productive training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bm3GgDxPOM

Would you consider these two examples as being better than receiving no training at all?

[joshs]

Would you consider these two examples as being better than receiving no training at all?

Ex. 1: Of course not, but I have no idea what he was like in his instructor class, so I don't know if I'd blame the TC or not. He did have his creds revoked.

Ex. 2: I think that's goofy, but that guy didn't do anything unsafe (I skipped through the video, but I didn't see anything in what I watched), so I don't see why he couldn't teach Basic Pistol (assuming he can follow a basic lesson plan).

[joshs]

Deleted.

[jondoe297]

Ex. 1: Of course not, but I have no idea what he was like in his instructor class, so I don't know if I'd blame the TC or not. He did have his creds revoked.


As a side note, do you know if he's still revoked? I saw that he's crawled back out from under his rock and is "Training Gunfighters" again.

[HCM]

As a side note, do you know if he's still revoked? I saw that he's crawled back out from under his rock and is "Training Gunfighters" again.

It's a free country. He just can't claim to be a NRA certified Instructor while training said gun fighters.

[JM Campbell]

If someone contacts her, and she says she's willing, I'll pitch in.
I've done it before, just need to know when to send the funds to Tom or whomever is collecting for this.

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[JM Campbell]

Well, there's a difference between poor training and "poor" training. Poor training is just that; poor, shit, junk. "Poor" training is an implication that what I think may be poor and what you think may be poor aren't the same thing.
Michael Thervil is (or at least was) an NRA certified instructor. A TC signed off on this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6GKntzJbs

I would submit that this is counter productive training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bm3GgDxPOM

Would you consider these two examples as being better than receiving no training at all?
In the 2nd video, I wonder if the car dealership he borrowed the Tundra from knew he was going to use it for personal gain on video with the MSRP label on it still (pass fr door). Wonder if that means Toyota and/or dealership endorses his training?

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[Bigguy]

Well, there's a difference between poor training and "poor" training. Poor training is just that; poor, shit, junk. "Poor" training is an implication that what I think may be poor and what you think may be poor aren't the same thing.
Michael Thervil is (or at least was) an NRA certified instructor. A TC signed off on this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6GKntzJbs


What you failed to appreciate here is that the Interstellar theme music playing in the background placed them in a tesseract. While it may have appeared that the guns were occasionally pointed at students and teacher, this is merely an interdimensional illusion. They were in fact pointed at an empty bedroom and may have possibly shot a few books off of shelves.

[Nephrology]

Our very own TCinVA did a Hi Point Challenge a while back.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2012/10/11/the-hi-point-challenge-completed/

http://pistol-training.com/?s=Hi-Point+Challenge

A more pressing issue - TC got that Model 19 for $125????

He is going to straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Shawn Dodson]

NRA has revised its Basic Pistol Course (now called Basics of Pistol Shooting) and is just rolling it out. It consists of two phases. Phase I consists of 6 hours of online e-learning. Once the student successfully passes Phase I then he/she can proceed to Phase II, which is approximately 5 hours of instructor led practical skills training involving four exercises that a student must demonstrate proficiency.

The new training program appears to address many of the criticisms voiced here. Time will tell if it's indeed an improvement.

[jthhapkido]

NRA has revised its Basic Pistol Course (now called Basics of Pistol Shooting) and is just rolling it out. It consists of two phases. Phase I consists of 6 hours of online e-learning. Once the student successfully passes Phase I then he/she can proceed to Phase II, which is approximately 5 hours of instructor led practical skills training involving four exercises that a student must demonstrate proficiency.

The new training program appears to address many of the criticisms voiced here. Time will tell if it's indeed an improvement.

And I see that this new version means that $60 goes directly to the NRA for the online part, with the instructor-led course costing additional money to the student. Since that will effectively be an entire day at the range, the overall price for this class is going to go up significantly, I'm thinking.