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View Full Version : Loading .357 in .38 brass? Keith bullet question



richiecotite
02-22-2016, 04:41 PM
Hi friends,

I ordered some 170 gr keith style bullets from Rim Rock. Loaded a dozen up and took em to the range. Fired 4 before the cylinder wouldn't turn. took it home and figured the cartridge oal length with this particular bullet was just too long. Did some reading and found a bunch of various forum posts mentioning that old timers like Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton would load full power .357 in .38 special brass. From what I read on various forums there is no real consensus on whether or not this is dangerous; some people say they've done it for decades with no problems and others wholeheartedly disagreeing.

I don't think bullet pull was the big issue here, when i first loaded them and dropped them in the cylinder I thought they seemed extremely long, like they were sticking out of the cylinder

I guess one solution would be to crimp over the highest driving band, but it seems like this would raise pressure considerably and require the use of less powder to safely shoot.

Anyone have experience loading this bullet? Any tips?

I'm shooting these out of an s&w m28 highway patrolman with 4" barrel. FWIW was loading 9.0-9.1 gr of blue dot under these.

Wheeler
02-22-2016, 08:01 PM
There's quite a bit of esoteric load data for .38 Special that predates the .357 Mag. The 38/44 Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman was specifically produced for the .38 Hot loads, which were pushing a 158 grain bullet at just over 1100fps. It would also exceed the max pressure of a standard .38 Special.

Your model 28 is an evolved Outdoorsman, it should handle anything within reasonable pressures. If you'll PM me your email address, I have some load data for the heavy .38 loads.

okie john
02-22-2016, 08:55 PM
I’ve had the same problem in a Model 28. Some true Keith bullets won’t chamber fully in an original Model 27 or 28, although newer N-frames may have longer cylinders. If you could make it work once, then you probably had the overall length correct. Hot revolver loads need a deep, firm roll crimp, so I’m guessing that you didn’t crimp them hard enough and the bullet jumped the crimp under recoil.

Yes, Skelton and others used hot loads in 38 Special brass, but they did it because they couldn’t get 357 Magnum brass, not because it was a good idea. They used a Ray Thompson design (Lyman #358156) which differs from the Keith design in two major ways. First, it has a gas check, which can help lower pressures. It also has two crimping grooves. Crimping in the upper groove lets you use the bullet in 38 Special brass in a 38 Special revolver, presumably with a standard powder charge. Using the lower groove lets you load to the same overall length as a 357 Magnum cartridge in a 357 Magnum revolver, which lets you use more powder in shorter 38 Special brass. If I remember correctly, Skelton and his peers used 2400 and didn’t load to full 357 ballistics--although their loads were still pretty hot--and most of them quit using it once they had a regular supply of 357 brass.

You should be OK if you follow their recipe exactly, but under no circumstances would I use anything other than a Thompson bullet if you try this. Also, there's just no need to do it. Instead, I’d take a long, hard look at some of the LBT flat-nose bullets in that weight range offered by Beartooth and other premium casters. They’re designed specifically to fit older N-frame revolvers and are generally easier to use.


Okie John

Malamute
02-22-2016, 09:29 PM
... Did some reading and found a bunch of various forum posts mentioning that old timers like Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton would load full power .357 in .38 special brass...

Keep in mind, you cant use the exact same load, it has to be reduced by about a grain because of the reduced case capacity, or you will be running higher pressures than the 357 loads in magnum cases will be producing. They may have shot 357 level loads, but not the same exact charge. I believe Keiths heavy 38 spl loads were NOT in full bore 357 load territory, though I may have missed something in reading.

okie john
02-22-2016, 09:59 PM
Keep in mind, you cant use the exact same load, it has to be reduced by about a grain because of the reduced case capacity, or you will be running higher pressures than the 357 loads in magnum cases will be producing. They may have shot 357 level loads, but not the same exact charge. I believe Keiths heavy 38 spl loads were NOT in full bore 357 load territory, though I may have missed something in reading.

Good points.


Okie John

Hambo
02-25-2016, 10:19 AM
If you load the cartridges and the cylinder will fully rotate, then when you shoot the cylinder hangs up on the bullets, the answer is bullet pull.

Jim Watson
02-25-2016, 11:29 AM
Referring to 'Sixguns' for the actual practices of Elmer Keith, I see that he loaded Lyman 358429 at 173 grains with 13.5 grains No 2400 in .38 Special brass crimped in the groove for use in .38-44 and other ".45 frame" .38 revolvers; also in .357 revolvers.
He went to 15 grains No 2400 with that bullet "crimped barely over the front band" in Magnum brass because it was too long for S&W cylinders when crimped in the groove. But he said the .38-44 Special load with proper groove crimp was more accurate. No worries about "jump" from Special brass in the Magnum chamber, apparently.

Skeeter Skelton wrote: "The 358156 has two crimping grooves. The upper is used when loading .357 cases and standard velocity .38 Special loads. When seated out to the lower crimp groove in .38 Special cases, more powder space is gained, and a very powerful load of 13.5 gr. of 2400 may be used in these cases, giving around 1150 fps."

The old timers were not much given to frickling around with odd powders.
Lyman thinks 10 grains of Blue Dot is .357 Magnum maximum with 358429 at 1.553" OAL. They say "some bullets" have to be crimped over the front band to stay within 1.59" OAL.


If the OP got four rounds off before it locked up with cartridges that "seemed extremely long, like they were sticking out of the cylinder" then the bullet is likely a redesign from 358429 but is still marginal in OAL if not crimped hard at the front edge of the groove.