My Encounter with "Open Carry Activism"

[GardoneVT]

"It was a Tuesday night. Usually Tuesdays in this midwest college town were sleepy affairs, especially at the office I worked at after school.

This one was going to be a memorable one, and for the wrong reasons. At the time I worked in wireless sales; so I wore business attire and sold overpriced electronics. I don’t know what it was about my store which provoked a man into walking into it with an openly carried Rock Island Armory 1911 Tactical, but he nevertheless did so.

Immediately the mood in the store changed. My customer, a husband watching me program his wife’s new iPhone, started keeping a wary eye on the guy. The Rock Island bearer was an overweight, excessively bearded man whose wife wore a look of practiced resignation as she carried their kid through the store. Given that I was 50% of the available staff and my coworker was himself occupied, this meant the newcomers had to wait for service"

Continued here. (http://www.rollingscissors.net/?p=285)

Has any of the well-traveled members of the firearms business encountered a case where Open Carry positively impacted a bystander's view on guns and the politics thereof?

[Nate_McDaniel]

Anytime I see Open Carry, I know the person has something going on other than self defense. Usually some type of inferiority complex, using the gun to feel powerful or a wannabe cop, etc.

[hufnagel]

or maybe, not allowed by state law to carry concealed?

[David S.]

It's obvious that Open Carry can have a negative impact on bystander's views. But I've also seen Open Carry occur on more than one occasion that had no apparent impact.

I remember sitting in a Central Florida Chipotle across from a couple well groomed dudes (well fitting jeans and tucked in polo shirt, belt) open carrying in leather OWB holsters. While they could have been plain-clothes officers, I never saw a badge or evidence that they actually were cops. Nobody seemed to care. I've also seen "cowboys" in full getup walking down Whiskey Row, near the courthouse, of Prescott, AZ with a 6-shooter on each hip and a gun belt full of ammo. Just another day.

[mtnbkr]

or maybe, not allowed by state law to carry concealed?

For the first several years I had my CCW in VA, the only way I could carry and go to any restaurant that served alcohol was to open carry.

Luckily, VA doesn't have a law against your CC piece being uncovered, so I could simply doff my carry burka when entering the establishment and don it again once I stepped across the threshold on my way out.

They've since changed that law so that CCW is legal in places that serve booze, you just can't drink while toting. Ergo, I only find myself OCing when in the woods.

Chris

[Casual Friday]

The guy fits your typical gun owner narrative, right down to the derpy pistol choice. Ironic?

[Gray222]

I just stay away from them...

[Jared]

Some years ago, my father and mother traveled to one of the larger SASS matches (I can't remember which one, maybe Rugers winter range). Anyhoo, they were in a restaurant and some cat walked in with a C1 1911 and sat down at a booth to eat. At that time concealed carry was illegal in our home state. Not only were my folks not alarmed, my father commented that nobody else in the place seemed to notice or care one bit either. I dunno exactly what to make of their experience, except that we all have our preconceived notions, and what's normal or not changes from one place to the next.

I've openly carried on the family farm, our private property. I've encountered neighbors while I've been carrying. We as a family are known to be hunters, so the neighbors I encountered didn't bat an eye. I won't carry a slung rifle at the state capital, that's for sure, but on my own land, I don't see the problem.

ETA: My folks were several states away from home when they went to that match. The guy mentioned was not openly carrying in public in out home state

[GuanoLoco]

So all-and-all a non-event by an open carry noob. Carry on.

[Kennydale]

Whether an Open Carry impacts your perception positive or negative (Which I think is already preordained in your head) He came into your store. Did his business and left...... NO ONE DIED right? don't get the OC animosity. Anyway he was armed , I imagine you were armed? Sounds Kosher to me !

[Tamara]

Still not clear what made this "activism".

[BehindBlueI's]

There's a thread on another forum I'm a frequent member of where folks talk about their various "encounters" either with or as OC. I don't wander in their much, but folks have reported bystanders asking how to get a license to carry, etc. One of the arguments the OC guys make is that the more non-events like you report that happen, the more comfortable folks will be around armed citizens. Maybe so. As long as the OC guy/gal is making an informed decision, is safe about it, and is abiding my the relevant laws, go for it. Not my gig, though.

[hufnagel]

My comment was specifically surrounding the fact that, not everyone CAN carry concealed. Example: I am NOT allowed to conceal when in PA. I'm a NJ resident with a UT permit. I can open carry, but I CANNOT CONCEAL. I also can't carry either way in Philly, but then I like my life and wouldn't go there anyways. My point being, an OC'er isn't necessarily always a gun SJW. I've had two encounters so far where both persons (women, it should be noted) inquired as to why i'm OC'ing. Upon the revelation that their AG had screwed over everyone NOT from PA with her reciprocity shenanigans, they were both astonished and dismayed that she (the AG) had done such a thing.

[Tamara]

My comment was specifically surrounding the fact that, not everyone CAN carry concealed. Example: I am NOT allowed to conceal when in PA. I'm a NJ resident with a UT permit. I can open carry, but I CANNOT CONCEAL.

Yup. I have to tuck my gun burkha behind my pistol grip every year for a week or so in New Mexico. Sorry if it offends anyone there. Un-fuck your state law and I'll stop.

[hufnagel]

For the first several years I had my CCW in VA, the only way I could carry and go to any restaurant that served alcohol was to open carry.

Luckily, VA doesn't have a law against your CC piece being uncovered, so I could simply doff my carry burka when entering the establishment and don it again once I stepped across the threshold on my way out.

They've since changed that law so that CCW is legal in places that serve booze, you just can't drink while toting. Ergo, I only find myself OCing when in the woods.

Chris

Ironically I can do the exact opposite when I enter on to private property. If said property owner (or duly selected representative) grants me permission to conceal I can do so. As soon as I step back outside the building I have to OC again though. That's the way the law reads, so that's the way I follow it.

I would prefer to conceal all the time. I can't by law in PA, so get over it. I am not interested in testing the bounds of generosity of any of the various law enforcement agencies by concealing when i'm not allowed to.

[Rustin]

That's a bit silly and completely unfounded.

Remember how gays had extravagant parades while trying to normalize homosexuality? What happened was very effective. After such a shocking display, the events shifted the Overton window and suddenly less flamboyant gays were not so shocking.

Same with open carry. Last year, all anti-open carry debates throughout the collective interwebs deemed any type of OC as a bad decision. Now that the shock troops have deployed, toting AR15s downtown and at department stores, the Overton window has shifted and the debate is now along the lines of OC is okay, but rifles aren't.

A right is a right. Who are we to condemn our own because these folks choose to exercise their unalienable rights in a more honest light?

[peterb]

As has been said many times here: there's a difference between carrying a gun and carrying a gun AT someone.

[Robinson]

The only time I've seen someone openly carrying it didn't seem like activism -- just some dude pushing a cart around the grocery store with a 1911 carried openly in the appendix position only on the left side. It didn't really surprise me or cause me any mental reaction -- other than I remember thinking that if someone suddenly decided to commit a crime right then the first thing they would do is either shoot or disarm that person. That's why concealed carry seems much more tactically sound to me (where it is lawful).

No one else in the store seemed to notice the gun -- or they didn't care. This was in my hometown in suburban Georgia.

[Drang]

Remember how gays had extravagant parades while trying to normalize homosexuality? What happened was very effective. After such a shocking display, the events shifted the Overton window and suddenly less flamboyant gays were not so shocking.
I'll just leave this here: A few thoughts on the special snowflakes....or "Are folks engaged in long arm open carry the particularly badly behaved drag queens of 2A?" (http://nwfreethinker.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-few-thoughts-on-special-snowflakesor.html)

[HCountyGuy]

Not seeing the activism or problem here, other than the author's bias against open carry (that's rather strong here typically).

Gun never left the holster, no mention of the overtly armed patron becoming hostile or belligerent. Seems to have been a non-event.

Let me ask you something, and this is a question open to anyone: When was the last time you saw, or heard about, an open-carry citizen go off the handle and either shoot up a location or commit a violent felony?

Why do folks, who are generally pro-gun, go condition Condition Orange when observing another individual who has an openly carried pistol IN A HOLSTER? I could understand if they were waving the gun around, muzzling everyone, or even fondling it in the holster. But a holstered gun is generally not something to worry about, in my book. But I'm no armed professional, so what do I know?

Hell, I'll generally strike up a conversation with the person, maybe talk some shop. That can ease tensions for everyone, you might even make a new friend!

[Tom Duffy]

As has been said many times here: there's a difference between carrying a gun and carrying a gun AT someone.

Open carry always reminds me of the Townes Van Zant line, "He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to feel."

[Exurbankevin]

When I lived in Arizona, I lived in the 'burbs of the East Valley, and it was not unusual to see guns on the hips of people in my local Wally World. I open-carried on occasion, because I could, but I mainly concealed carried. When I did open-carry, it was with a nice gun in a nice holster and I acted nice.

Even more than my innate Canadian niceness. :D

Open carry, when you get right down to it, isn't about the gun, it's about how people act while having a gun on display in a public space. Nice people with nice guns acting nicely make guns nice for everyone. A jerk with a trigger makes people with guns seem scary. I want fewer maroons with Tapco SKS's in Starbucks, but rather than ban them, I want to drown them out with good holsters and nice people.

[Tamara]

Let me ask you something, and this is a question open to anyone: When was the last time you saw, or heard about, an open-carry citizen go off the handle and either shoot up a location or commit a violent felony?

This is kinda straw-man-ish, since nobody here seems to be saying that's the problem.


Why do folks, who are generally pro-gun, go condition Condition Orange when observing another individual who has an openly carried pistol IN A HOLSTER? I could understand if they were waving the gun around, muzzling everyone, or even fondling it in the holster. But a holstered gun is generally not something to worry about, in my book. But I'm no armed professional, so what do I know?

Who here is saying they go "Condition Orange" or "worry"? I don't. I usually think "Oh, Christ, what a goober." Since the open carrier is usually blissfully unaware of my presence, even after I say "Hey, free gun!" in a conversational tone of voice, I usually ignore them except to wonder how often the XD GEAR holster flips upside down on their 1" belt and deposits their gat on the floor of the Walmart bathroom, or how they plan on accessing that spare mag carried bullets backward at 4:30 in a hurry.

6229


Hell, I'll generally strike up a conversation with the person, maybe talk some shop. That can ease tensions for everyone, you might even make a new friend!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but most of the people I see open carrying are the reason I conceal. I'm not concerned about the general public seeing the gun, but if one of those mouth-breathing Gun Nerd goobers sees it, he's gonna want to talk to me about whether I prefer HydroShock (sic) to Black Talon or if I really think my puny 9mm has as much stopping power (again, sic) as his RIA .45ACP. I have to talk to those people at work; no reason I should be forced to on my own time.

[Robinson]

Not seeing the activism or problem here, other than the author's bias against open carry (that's rather strong here typically).

Gun never left the holster, no mention of the overtly armed patron becoming hostile or belligerent. Seems to have been a non-event.

Let me ask you something, and this is a question open to anyone: When was the last time you saw, or heard about, an open-carry citizen go off the handle and either shoot up a location or commit a violent felony?

Why do folks, who are generally pro-gun, go condition Condition Orange when observing another individual who has an openly carried pistol IN A HOLSTER? I could understand if they were waving the gun around, muzzling everyone, or even fondling it in the holster. But a holstered gun is generally not something to worry about, in my book. But I'm no armed professional, so what do I know?

Hell, I'll generally strike up a conversation with the person, maybe talk some shop. That can ease tensions for everyone, you might even make a new friend!

I can only speak for myself on this, but I'm not going to go "condition orange" when I see someone carrying openly in a holster. I don't want it to be made illegal, and I don't feel a need to correct the person. However, if someone open carries in a place where concealed carry is legal I do somewhat question that person's judgment. What is the advantage of open carry, other than maybe convenience? Even that's a stretch since a person open carrying should really use a retention holster. It probably doesn't serve to normalize it in other peoples' eyes as some might claim unless lots of people are doing it, plus events have shown that sometimes open carriers become victims and their guns are taken from them. What tactical advantage does it provide?

Still, it's their choice.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So far a friend of mine has seen the first OC in our area. It was in Bandera, TX - a small town about 30 miles from the borders of San Antonio. 1911 in a restaurant. No panic reported.

I stopped at Cabela's on the way to Austin the other day. They have a sign that firearms must be checked unless concealed. So I asked the guy at the podium what that means for OC. He said they won't stop some one even though the sign seems to indicate it. Said he's only seen a few OC folks and they tend to be Goobers who walk around preening. They'll pull their jacket inside the gun so it will be OC in the store.

[Exurbankevin]

Now as far as interacting with actual, real-life activists, all bets are off.

I went to a "Tea Party Second Amendment Rally" at the Arizona State Capitol back in 2013, and I got swept more often than the skip at a bonspiel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curling). Everyone, it seemed, was trying to out-Magpul the other person, and the event turned into a blur of M4gerys, coyote tan and unsafe gun handling.

Me? I was concealed carrying, as were my friends, but who does the local TV interview? The "colorful" elderly gentleman with a Gadsden tee shirt and "flare launcher" on his AR.

Of course. 100+ years of the ASRPA's advancement of gun rights in Arizona (including designing the state flag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Arizona)) were almost wiped out by one idiot.

We have met the enemy, and they is us.

[BehindBlueI's]

Let me ask you something, and this is a question open to anyone: When was the last time you saw, or heard about, an open-carry citizen go off the handle and either shoot up a location or commit a violent felony?


Last year. Attempted to kill a police officer after a pursuit. Was killed by second officer as first officer was wrestling with suspect over gun. OC pistol and two magazines on bad guy. I was second detective on scene.

[Tamara]

I was second detective obscene.

Autocorrect loves you and wants you to be happy.

[BobLoblaw]

99% of the time when I see OC in a general public area: "Oh look, another dumb-ass." It would be less easy to disarm the other 1%. Apparently that SA bullshit goes out the window when they're not on the internet.

[Drang]

Why do folks, who are generally pro-gun, go condition Condition Orange when observing another individual who has an openly carried pistol IN A HOLSTER?
They're usually toting Taurii in Serpas or Sausage SaksTM.

[hufnagel]

Last year. Attempted to kill a police officer after a pursuit. Was killed by second officer as first officer was wrestling with suspect over gun. OC pistol and two magazines on bad guy. I was second detective on scene.

Honest question, no snark intended. Was this person already a prohibited person? Or were they some random ordinary tax paying Joe who decided that was the day to lose it (as so many anti's think we're all prone to doing.) If by all accounts he/she/it was a "normal" person, what was it that set them off that day? Assuming you can answer this without repercussions.

[JAD]

Who are we to condemn our own because these folks choose to exercise their unalienable rights in a more honest light?

Inalienable rights are awesome.

Did you just imply that concealed carry is dishonest?

[hufnagel]

Not but a little over a pair of centuries back, open carry was considered gentlemanly whilst concealed carry was the act of scoundrel. Make of that what you will.

[BehindBlueI's]

Honest question, no snark intended. Was this person already a prohibited person? Or were they some random ordinary tax paying Joe who decided that was the day to lose it (as so many anti's think we're all prone to doing.) If by all accounts he/she/it was a "normal" person, what was it that set them off that day? Assuming you can answer this without repercussions.

I'll not discuss it further, as I do not know the status of civil suits, if any. I would just note that in general, there are many people who occupy an area that is between prohibited person and ordinary tax paying Joe.

In an unrelated incident, we have had prohibited people OC. Those don't come through my office, but a friend of mine made sergeant a few years ago (2013, maybe?) and shortly thereafter arrested a serious violent felon who was OC. (SVF is a legal definition in my state, not all felonies qualify to make one SVF). The idea expressed by some in the OC crowd is that anyone who shows their gun has nothing to hide and is thus never up to no good. That's horseshit. Some are, some aren't. They just don't hear about them, so they assume it doesn't happen. Personally, I make the same evaluation with OC as I do with anyone. Body language cues, etc. etc. to determine if they warrant further attention as a potential threat or not.

[hufnagel]

I'll not discuss it further, as I do not know the status of civil suits, if any. I would just note that in general, there are many people who occupy an area that is between prohibited person and ordinary tax paying Joe.

In an unrelated incident, we have had prohibited people OC. Those don't come through my office, but a friend of mine made sergeant a few years ago (2013, maybe?) and shortly thereafter arrested a serious violent felon who was OC. (SVF is a legal definition in my state, not all felonies qualify to make one SVF). The idea expressed by some in the OC crowd is that anyone who shows their gun has nothing to hide and is thus never up to no good. That's horseshit. Some are, some aren't. They just don't hear about them, so they assume it doesn't happen. Personally, I make the same evaluation with OC as I do with anyone. Body language cues, etc. etc. to determine if they warrant further attention as a potential threat or not.

Understood on highlight 1.
Highlight 2: I'm pondering that one, but it's causing a lot of mental reboots and wtf's.
Highlight 3: You mean you consider the actions and attitudes of the wielder more important than the tool? That's a novel and impressive approach that i've NEVER heard expressed before! (yes, that was sarcasm.) :D

[Tamara]

Not but a little over a pair of centuries back, open carry was considered gentlemanly...

So was owning other human beings as chattel. Mores change. ;)

[HCM]

Highlight 2: I'm pondering that one, but it's causing a lot of mental reboots and wtf's.


Here in TX you will see OC people with long guns and cap and ball revolvers precisely because they are in that middle ground between prohibited person and ordinary tax paying Joe. Look closely at the firearms carried many of the OCT rallies in Austin and DFW.

They have minor criminal records which do not prohibit firearms ownership but do preclude them from obtaining a TX LTC. They OC the cap and ball revolvers because they are not legally "firearms" in TX.

[HCM]

So far a friend of mine has seen the first OC in our area. It was in Bandera, TX - a small town about 30 miles from the borders of San Antonio. 1911 in a restaurant. No panic reported.


For context, Bandera is known as the "Cowboy Capital". It's a place where it is still common to see people riding horses into town to run errands and there are hitching rails for horses in regular use out side the local bars.

[BehindBlueI's]

Highlight 2: I'm pondering that one, but it's causing a lot of mental reboots and wtf's.


I'm sure every cop on the board instantly knows what I'm talking about, as do the medics and ER docs. Maybe examples would help you out. Think of the sovereign citizen yahoos or the "militia" idjits. Not prohibited people. Not many folks definition of average. There's plenty of archetypes for those in that gray area and it's beyond the scope of this thread.

[HCM]

I'm sure every cop on the board instantly knows what I'm talking about, as do the medics and ER docs. Maybe examples would help you out. Think of the sovereign citizen yahoos or the "militia" idjits. Not prohibited people. Not many folks definition of average. There's plenty of archetypes for those in that gray area and it's beyond the scope of this thread.

Maybe this will help:

Open-carry activists not so open about criminal past- Police records left Kory Watkins and others ineligible for a Texas handgun license.


http://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/bud-kennedy/article10243031.html

[hufnagel]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanations. I guess as someone who's never had anything worse than a traffic ticket I couldn't comprehend where the middle ground would be. Perhaps it's because I'm in a state that doesn't allow middle grounds to exist, if for no other reason than everything's illegal here except by exception.

[BehindBlueI's]

Perhaps it's because I'm in a state that doesn't allow middle grounds to exist, if for no other reason than everything's illegal here except by exception.

Ha! We're a "shall issue" state and I'm all in favor of remaining so. It does allow some folks who are idiots, criminals who just haven't been convicted yet, and loonies to carry, though. The biker, err, girl who holds guns for her felon boyfriend, that sort of thing. Such is the price of freedom.