HK P30 - Revisited

[StraitR]

I'm normally very longwinded, so I'll do my absolute best to make this short. I've carried a glock variant for a decade, AIWB for the last three years, but recently decided to move away from SFA to a TDA. Maybe it's the fact that baby number two will be here soon, I don't know, but even with two Gadgets on order I just don't care to AWIB a SFA anymore. We've discussed that topic ad nauseam, so no need to go there.

I thought I'd naturally carry my Brig Tac, but while searching for a holster recently I've been experimenting with some el cheap-o's at home and I'm starting to feel like it's just too long. Neither the weight or girth are showstoppers, but nor are they a plus. So, I went to the local gun shop to feel out a 92 compact thinking I would buy the new WC Compact Carry. Too short of grip for my taste, as I don't like doing the British sipping tea pinky thing when reloading.

While there, I also tried a P30, P229, P2000, and PX4 Compact. Didn't care for the P2000 or PX4c, and I keep reading poor things about Sig QA. I have a VP9 and five mags for it, so I'm thinking the P30 makes sense. I shoot the Brig Tac better than my 19/19L, so I naturally assumed if I bought a hammer gun it would be a DA/SA. I have a VP9 and shoot it better than glocks as well, so maybe I should look at an LEM since the majority of my trigger pulls in the last 15 years have been SA (1911) or SFA. That said, I've never even so much as seen an LEM let alone tried one. No stores in my area stock LEM variances.

I'm a little late to the P30 party, so I'm hoping to get some feedback from those that have stayed dedicated to one since they became a popular flavor here over four years ago. I've read our old P30 threads, some were relevant, but dated. So my questions...

Is the P30 still as good of a choice today as it was then? (General question for anyone to answer)

Who's still running one, why have you stuck with it, and would you still choose it today?

Who's moved on, and why?

Would I be best served by the DA/SA or jumping blind into an LEM?

[breakingtime91]

I'm normally very longwinded, so I'll do my absolute best to make this short. I've carried a glock variant for a decade, AIWB for the last three years, but recently decided to move away from SFA to a TDA. Maybe it's the fact that baby number two will be here soon, I don't know, but even with two Gadgets on order I just don't care to AWIB a SFA anymore. We've discussed that topic ad nauseam, so no need to go there.

I thought I'd naturally carry my Brig Tac, but while searching for a holster recently I've been experimenting with some el cheap-o's at home and I'm starting to feel like it's just too long. Neither the weight or girth are showstoppers, but nor are they a plus. So, I went to the local gun shop to feel out a 92 compact thinking I would buy the new WC Compact Carry. Too short of grip for my taste, as I don't like doing the British sipping tea pinky thing when reloading.

While there, I also tried a P30, P229, P2000, and PX4 Compact. Didn't care for the P2000 or PX4c, and I keep reading poor things about Sig QA. I have a VP9 and five mags for it, so I'm thinking the P30 makes sense. I shoot the Brig Tac better than my 19/19L, so I naturally assumed if I bought a hammer gun it would be a DA/SA. I have a VP9 and shoot it better than glocks as well, so maybe I should look at an LEM since the majority of my trigger pulls in the last 15 years have been SA (1911) or SFA. That said, I've never even so much as seen an LEM let alone tried one. No stores in my area stock LEM variances.

I'm a little late to the P30 party, so I'm hoping to get some feedback from those that have stayed dedicated to one since they became a popular flavor here over four years ago. I've read our old P30 threads, some were relevant, but dated. So my questions...

Is the P30 still as good of a choice today as it was then? (General question for anyone to answer)

Who's still running one, why have you stuck with it, and would you still choose it today?

Who's moved on, and why?

Would I be best served by the DA/SA or jumping blind into an LEM?

I like LEM, let me find time to write a long worded post about it.

[Hauptmann]

I've been a DA/SA Sig shooter for a couple of decades now. I got ahold of a used P30 9mm V3 DA/SA several years ago on a trade, so I figured I would see what all the fuss was about. My impressions were that the quality of the pistol was exceptional. I hadn't seen a LE mass produced pistol that nice since opening new boxes of W. German P226/P228s in the early 1990s. The DA/SA trigger was very similar in feel to the Sig's standard DA/SA trigger, although lighter and a tad longer overall. The grip felt great, and kept the pistol from shifting in the hand during trigger pulls. The first time I shot it I did a simple 30rd police course of fire, and I actually shot the P30 as well as a Sig P228 cold. With practice, I shot even better. Accuracy was outstanding out to 50 yards. The only negative I could find with it is that the slide was positioned more rearward than a P228, so the gun's recoil was a little more jumpy than the P228 and I could see a potential for limp-wristing problems under pressure. I liked the pistol, but decided that I didn't need it since I couldn't use it on or off duty.

[GardoneVT]

I'm normally very longwinded, so I'll do my absolute best to make this short. I've carried a glock variant for a decade, AIWB for the last three years, but recently decided to move away from SFA to a TDA. Maybe it's the fact that baby number two will be here soon, I don't know, but even with two Gadgets on order I just don't care to AWIB a SFA anymore. We've discussed that topic ad nauseam, so no need to go there.

I thought I'd naturally carry my Brig Tac, but while searching for a holster recently I've been experimenting with some el cheap-o's at home and I'm starting to feel like it's just too long. Neither the weight or girth are showstoppers, but nor are they a plus. So, I went to the local gun shop to feel out a 92 compact thinking I would buy the new WC Compact Carry. Too short of grip for my taste, as I don't like doing the British sipping tea pinky thing when reloading.

While there, I also tried a P30, P229, P2000, and PX4 Compact. Didn't care for the P2000 or PX4c, and I keep reading poor things about Sig QA. I have a VP9 and five mags for it, so I'm thinking the P30 makes sense. I shoot the Brig Tac better than my 19/19L, so I naturally assumed if I bought a hammer gun it would be a DA/SA. I have a VP9 and shoot it better than glocks as well, so maybe I should look at an LEM since the majority of my trigger pulls in the last 15 years have been SA (1911) or SFA. That said, I've never even so much as seen an LEM let alone tried one. No stores in my area stock LEM variances.

I'm a little late to the P30 party, so I'm hoping to get some feedback from those that have stayed dedicated to one since they became a popular flavor here over four years ago. I've read our old P30 threads, some were relevant, but dated. So my questions...

Is the P30 still as good of a choice today as it was then? (General question for anyone to answer)

Who's still running one, why have you stuck with it, and would you still choose it today?

Who's moved on, and why?

Would I be best served by the DA/SA or jumping blind into an LEM?
As someone who switched from a P30 LEM V2 back to the 92 , I'll offer this. Hopefully it helps you out.

The problem I had with LEM is that it required dedicated and specific practice to maintain skill. With my Beretta, I could shoot any DA/SA pistol , come back to the 92 and still perform decently with it. With the LEM P30 if I didn't get a live fire session within 14 days of the last one, I was starting over from Square One. I also found it confusing going from "press out on the draw" with the DA/SA system to "WAIT... Ok now take up the very light slack WALL !press " of the LEM. I found it almost like a mirror image trigger system.

As to the V3 P30s, I've always found DA /SA HK triggers to be at best "functional". The closest I've felt an HK DA/SA trigger come to "good" was the USP match trigger. If P30 9mms shipped with that setup id have to change usernames. However , they don't, and I can't digest the value proposition of dropping $1000 on a pistol with an inferior trigger to a $400 Sig 2022, to say nothing about a Beretta 92.

Lastly: park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer. That's money which could be better spent on training and ammo, and just about every major brand gun sold has better accessory availability and lower prices then HK.

[breakingtime91]

Ok so I have been shooting LEM only for close to 6-7 months now (2k+ rounds but don't have my log book near me). I have had a M&P, Bertetta 92, and Glock 19 before that. So I have had a pretty decent showing of triggers and systems. Here are my thoughts, it is completely up to you to decide if its worth anything. LEM is a unique trigger system. You have a long take up like a DA that is smooth and doesn't really stack. You then hit a wall, the same wall you hit after a reset, that you have to press through. Here is the good news, its not a bad wall. It is easy to roll through the take up and wall if you are dedicated to this trigger system. If you are looking to be as fast as a SFA or tuned DA/SA this isnt the trigger system for you. I can out shoot this gun speed wise with a glock pretty much everyday. Here is the thing though, it isn't by a significant amount at all. We are talking at most .6. Which I know, it adds up, but in the reality of my shooting, I can't see the front sight at the speeds I am talking about so is it really relevant? I don't really think so. I regularly hit low 2 to high 2 second D5s (draw fire 5 rounds at 7 yards to a 8 inch circle) so the trigger is more then capable of delivering good performance. This is where the LEM gets really good, it is a stupid easy gun to use gun handling wise. I will do this list fashion
1) You have a long take up, which in my opinion, is important if its a carry piece. It gives you the ability to stop the press long before the break if the situation changes and that good shoot becomes a completely different kind of shoot.
2)You won't have to worry about decocking. Finger comes of the trigger, trigger goes back to its farthest starting point. This may not seem like a big deal to some but if you have been in a life or death fight before you understand how confused you can get and how many things you are managing. It is just nice to not have to worry about if my gun has a long/short take up.
3)There is a hammer to block. I think this speaks to itself if you been carrying appendix for any length of time.


DA/SA is also a good choice, especially a Beretta. The main thing you throw in there is the risk of holstering it in SA, which I know most of us say we wont do but shit happens. I think it was Nyeti who said he had to walk an experienced guy through decoking his gun after a shooting. This is just from my experience but I remember during an event I completely forgot what to do with a magazine after I did a tactical reload. Everything was smooth, mag out/mag in, mag in hand and then bam, blank. It wasn't that I wasn't trained, its just an example how you can be thinking about so many different things and just brain dump information/something you have done over and over again.

[StraitR]

As someone who switched from a P30 LEM V2 back to the 92 , I'll offer this. Hopefully it helps you out.

The problem I had with LEM is that it required dedicated and specific practice to maintain skill. With my Beretta, I could shoot any DA/SA pistol , come back to the 92 and still perform decently with it. With the LEM P30 if I didn't get a live fire session within 14 days of the last one, I was starting over from Square One. I also found it confusing going from "press out on the draw" with the DA/SA system to "WAIT... Ok now take up the very light slack WALL !press " of the LEM. I found it almost like a mirror image trigger system.

As to the V3 P30s, I've always found DA /SA HK triggers to be at best "functional". The closest I've felt an HK DA/SA trigger come to "good" was the USP match trigger. If P30 9mms shipped with that setup id have to change usernames. However , they don't, and I can't digest the value proposition of dropping $1000 on a pistol with an inferior trigger to a $400 Sig 2022, to say nothing about a Beretta 92.

Lastly: park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer. That's money which could be better spent on training and ammo, and just about every major brand gun sold has better accessory availability and lower prices then HK.

And THAT is the crux of my concern with LEM, and I appreciate you bringing it up early.

I feel like if I shoot the Beretta well, some of that, at least the technical aspects of DA/SA, should transfer. You highlight my concern with the LEM, and that is, it's unlike anything else I shoot. The first time I shot my friends M9A1, I shot it better than I did my 17 on the same drill minutes earlier (a modified el prez with only two targets). I like the DA/SA, but so many experienced members here lambast the V3 and rave about the LEM. I realize everyone is different, but I want to get it all straight before dropping money on a new pistol. Open to a new Sig as well, if the consensus says the newer ones are good to go.

Agree that the price isn't good, but the money is what the money is. I'd rather not cross something off my list because it doesn't present the same value as other pistols at this point. In hindsight, I've probably held on to carrying/shooting glocks longer than I should have based on cost and logistics, something I started thinking about after reading your thread and blog post on the subject.

[The Apprentice]

Breakingtime somed it up pretty well the only thing I would add is to really try and get your hands on one to try. The other is that for me personally I need to be dedicated to the lem trigger, shooting any other triggers messes me up.

[LSP972]

Lastly: park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer.

There is certainly no accounting for taste… but that has to be one of the more inane statements I have seen posted on this board.

Let's ignore the first class HE finish on the P30 vs the painted-on Bruniton; or whatever it is; on the PX4, and whatever semi-rough phosphate/Nitrolon/etc. the Sig is finished with. Let's simply compare the rather sleek, compact outline (the extra grip length excepted) of the P30 to the… I dunno what descriptor would be most appropriate… clunkiness?… of the other two. Especially the grips

Sorry all, I shouldn't be so curt… but I am just amazed.

.

[Hauptmann]

And THAT Open to a new Sig as well, if the consensus says the newer ones are good to go.


So far, I've found the most recent models(made after 2012) to be of good quality. Don't forget, even the famous W. German guns had the occasional manufacturing issue when they were in production. I do like those old guns, but a nice aspect of buying new is that it comes with an excellent factory warranty and good customer service. H&K has questionable CS.

[breakingtime91]

There is certainly no accounting for taste… but that has to be one of the more inane statements I have seen posted on this board.

Let's ignore the first class HE finish on the P30 vs the painted-on Bruniton; or whatever it is; on the PX4, and whatever semi-rough phosphate/Nitrolon/etc. the Sig is finished with. Let's simply compare the rather sleek, compact outline (the extra grip length excepted) of the P30 to the… I dunno what descriptor would be most appropriate… clunkiness?… of the other two. Especially the grips

Sorry all, I shouldn't be so curt… but I am just amazed.

.

Completely agree.. this is like when people compare sigma to the glock or m&p series. Not saying its the same quality comparison but it is a comparison none the less.

[farscott]

I have been dedicated to the P30 LEM for almost three years now. As others have noted, the action is unlike anything else that is semi-automatic. That being said, I shoot about fifty rounds per week out of my P30, and that is enough to keep my skills decent. I am nowhere near the level of many of the shooters on this forum, but I hope I am better than the vast majority who do not practice with intent.

I do supplement my P30 shooting with quite a bit of .22 LR out of a S&W 17 K-frame revolver. The DA revolver trigger is not so different than the P30 LEM. The P30 LEM trigger is lighter, and the wall is in a slightly different location, but the basic "long smooth" pull is present. I have found that, for me, practice with the .22 K-frame helps my 9x19 P30 LEM shooting. I am of the opinion that one can pretty much shoot anything well (maybe not great, but well) with dedicated, focused practice, and the P30 LEM has done nothing to dissuade me of that opinion.

As far as a holster gun, that long smooth trigger pull with a hammer I can feel makes me much more comfortable putting the P30 in a holster when compared to my last polymer gun, the Glock. There is only one trigger pull, no safeties to forget to use, and no decocking levers to find or forget. I also like that the trigger is a bit more forgiving of mistakes, something I am sure to make. The P30 reliability has been exemplary, and I like that the gun really is fully ambi in terms of controls. It is a very easy gun to learn to trust.

About my only issue with the P30 is my unwillingness to do more than detail strip. Along with that, getting parts is a bit more of a concern than Glock. In fact, no dealer within fifty miles of my home has any HK guns or parts. Internet ordering of parts and magazines has been the norm. In fact, I need to order a few more magazines to replace some that are reaching the end of their service life.

All of that being said, my wife and I have five P30 LEM pistols between us, and we have been well served by them.

[LSP972]

I'd rather not cross something off my list because it doesn't present the same value as other pistols at this point.

Define "value", please; as in, what it means to YOU in terms of shelling out for a defensive side arm that you will depend upon.

I have found that trying to discuss the LEM with folks who know nothing about it is, more often than not, an exercise in futility. Not trying to point any specific fingers here, and I understand your reticence due to not being able to go hands-on with one. Yes, you have to put in some time to "learn it". No, it doesn't ruin you for any other trigger action. Others disagree with that.

Suggest you read nyeti's treatise on it, regarding "street triggers". Its book-marked around here somewhere, and is, without doubt, the best explanation ever penned on WHY some of us, who have plowed their way through more than a few different action types in a pointing-real-guns-at-real-people environment, think it is the best thing going for a defensive pistol trigger action.

.

[LSP972]

H&K has questionable CS.

On what CURRENT information do you base that statement?

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[Hauptmann]

On what CURRENT information do you base that statement?

.

Just CBP dealings with them.

[breakingtime91]

ok so something bothered me and I had to stop cleaning my house to get it off my chest. I just went shooting this morning. I live in Montana and the only range near me is out doors. It was cold and windy this morning and it was the first time I had shot in 2 months and three weeks. I hadn't dry fired it 2 months and three weeks. I shot a low 3 second D5 cold and then got into the 2's as I warmed up. I just went and looked at my notes, I was .3 off the fastest time I got with a glock and .45 off the fastest time I have ever got(which was with a lem). The LEM trigger is not any more difficult to stay proficient on then any other gun... If you shoot a shit ton of different guns, which I believe is kind of silly, of course it will be harder to use! The trigger is pretty comparable to any other trigger I have used. I take up the slack, go through the wall, and reset. I am not sure why people make it sound so hard. I could be completely wrong but that really gets under my skin.

[LSP972]

Just CBP dealings with them.

From what I've heard, most of that is due to typical government bullshit getting between the CBP armorers and the firm itself. All hearsay, of course.

I do know that the "civilian" HK customer service exchanges I am aware of over the past several years have been exemplary… and that is not hearsay. HK had- HAD- a well deserved reputation for lousy CS years ago. No longer.

.

[LSP972]

I am not sure why people make it sound so hard.

Neither me, bud.

Wait… okay, I DO know why, given a few individuals…;)

.

[Hauptmann]

From what I've heard, most of that is due to typical government bullshit getting between the CBP armorers and the firm itself. All hearsay, of course.

I do know that the "civilian" HK customer service exchanges I am aware of over the past several years have been exemplary… and that is not hearsay. HK had- HAD- a well deserved reputation for lousy CS years ago. No longer.

.

I'm DOI, so our processes are different, but similar in many ways to. The problems that the CBP armorers are experiencing are parts availability, and repair/replacement of broken parts/guns. Even the best made guns will occasionally go tits-up, after they are screened by the master armorer, H&K takes their time in getting a functioning pistol back into the inventory. Our turn around on Sigs that have to go back to the factory is usually less than two weeks. A number of CBP P2000s that went back were not replaced for several months.

[LtDave]

I've been carrying a SigPro for better part of a year now and have been very happy with it. That being said, I just picked up a V3 DA/SA P30 that came with Heine sights and a Gray Guns trigger job. I have to admit that factory HK DA triggers can't compare to a factory SIG, but this one is danged nice after the trip to Gray Guns. Here's a target I shot yesterday off the bench at 20 yards with some Winchester 124 Grain +P Bonded JHP. Might have to adjust the sights:
6049

[breakingtime91]

I've been carrying a SigPro for better part of a year now and have been very happy with it. That being said, I just picked up a V3 DA/SA P30 that came with Heine sights and a Gray Guns trigger job. I have to admit that factory HK DA triggers can't compare to a factory SIG, but this one is danged nice after the trip to Gray Guns. Here's a target I shot yesterday off the bench at 20 yards with some Winchester 124 Grain +P Bonded JHP. Might have to adjust the sights:
6049

nice shooting sir.

[LSP972]

Even the best made guns will occasionally go tits-up, after they are screened by the master armorer, H&K takes their time in getting a functioning pistol back into the inventory. Our turn around on Sigs that have to go back to the factory is usually less than two weeks. A number of CBP P2000s that went back were not replaced for several months.

Understood. But I would opine that is, in part, due to the fact that Sig has quite a few more customer service/repair techs than HK does… due to a higher volume of returns/problems.

And the fact that CBP's sub-nuclear/proprietary 155gr load being the cause for those broken P2000 slides probably caused a lot of head shaking at HK…

.

[Hauptmann]

Understood. But I would opine that is, in part, due to the fact that Sig has quite a few more customer service/repair techs than HK does… due to a higher volume of returns/problems.

And the fact that CBP's sub-nuclear/proprietary 155gr load being the cause for those broken P2000 slides probably caused a lot of head shaking at HK…

.

CBP mostly converted to the light recoiling 135gr Win JHP in 2009 when they won the solicitation. I believe they converted to Fed 180gr JHP at the end of 2012, in part to allow for an easy piggy-back onto DHS bulk ammo purchases. I don't think there has been a lot of the high recoiling 155gr stuff in inventory for a while. I spoke to a CBP armorer about the long wait time on broken P2000s, and apparently H&K does their own investigation on the weapon before they will release a repaired or replacement firearm. Obviously there are plenty of pistols in the inventory, but that long of a wait starts to become a headache for inventory logs and issuing out a new serialized pistol.

[StraitR]

Define "value", please; as in, what it means to YOU in terms of shelling out for a defensive side arm that you will depend upon.
.

Maybe I was vague, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page. My response was to GVT's statement... "park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer."

What I mean specifically, is value in relation to comparable options is not my concern and cost is dead last on my list of things to consider, within reason of course. I'd love a Jason Burton 9mm Commander, but don't have $7,500 to pay for one. While the P30 is in fact more expensive than the PX4 or Sip Pro, I have no qualms paying the $900 for one (probably x2) if it in fact does what I need it to do.

[Kimura]

Interesting thread as I keep thinking that I want a P2000 and haven't shot the LEM trigger either.

[breakingtime91]

Maybe I was vague, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page. My response was to GVT's statement... "park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer."

What I mean specifically, is value in relation to comparable options is not my concern and cost is dead last on my list of things to consider, within reason of course. I'd love a Jason Burton 9mm Commander, but don't have $7,500 to pay for one. While the P30 is in fact more expensive than the PX4 or Sip Pro, I have no qualms paying the $900 for one (probably x2) if it in fact does what I need it to do.

What are you exactly looking for? that may help us help you :D

[LSP552]

I've been a DA/SA Sig shooter for a couple of decades now. I got ahold of a used P30 9mm V3 DA/SA several years ago on a trade, so I figured I would see what all the fuss was about. My impressions were that the quality of the pistol was exceptional. I hadn't seen a LE mass produced pistol that nice since opening new boxes of W. German P226/P228s in the early 1990s. The DA/SA trigger was very similar in feel to the Sig's standard DA/SA trigger, although lighter and a tad longer overall. The grip felt great, and kept the pistol from shifting in the hand during trigger pulls. The first time I shot it I did a simple 30rd police course of fire, and I actually shot the P30 as well as a Sig P228 cold. With practice, I shot even better. Accuracy was outstanding out to 50 yards. The only negative I could find with it is that the slide was positioned more rearward than a P228, so the gun's recoil was a little more jumpy than the P228 and I could see a potential for limp-wristing problems under pressure. I liked the pistol, but decided that I didn't need it since I couldn't use it on or off duty.

You found a P30 with a lighter than standard SIG? I must be unlucky. The couple of P30s I handled had absolutely horrible DA triggers and OK SA.

[Hauptmann]

You found a P30 with a lighter than standard SIG? I must be unlucky. The couple of P30s I handled had absolutely horrible DA triggers and OK SA.

Apples to oranges I guess. I was using old school Sigs at the time, and they are known for having a stiffer main spring to allow for better ignition of military primers. The new Sig main springs do indeed feel lighter by comparison.

[GJM]

Craig, there an easy way to get HK quality and reliability, without the LEM trigger -- get a P2000 or P30 in DA/SA, change to a Wolff 12 pound mainspring, and carry on.

[LSP552]

Apples to oranges I guess. I was using old school Sigs at the time, and they are known for having a stiffer main spring to allow for better ignition of military primers. The new Sig main springs do indeed feel lighter by comparison.

Thanks Hauptmann, appreciate the info.

[1slow]

Several Years ago I got a HK45 and P30 LEM. Todd's and nyeti's influence !

From the beginning I did better 25 yard head shots than I did with the GL17/19s. I had carried and shot GL21,30,19,17 for 23 years x 10,000 rounds a year. 10 years in AIWB.
It took several thousand rounds to be able to do 7 yard failure drills and draw to head shots as fast and accurately.
I think nyeti sums up the LEM well. Todd certainly proved it can be shot very well.

If it were 1990 and I was coming directly from carrying 1911 cocked and locked I would have gone with a cocked and locked HK. After 23 years with Glocks I was afraid that would bite me.

I have carried P30 LEM 9MM for several years and like the guns accuracy,build quality, and the hammer for AIWB.
I think it is a little harder to get fast splits with the LEM than a Glock.
Thumb on the hammer is comforting in the dark, in the rain, while you are trying to reholster under 2 layers of clothing and get back on your carbine.
Overall I am quite happy with my HK P30 LEM 9mms

Part of me loves the USP45 (thanks GJM) and particularly the USPT45 and its great trigger and is tempted to go back to a cocked and locked gun.

[StraitR]

What are you exactly looking for? that may help us help you :D

First, thank you for your initial post, it was exactly the information I was seeking. I think you're right, it's a crying shame we live so far apart.

I am looking to transition from SFA to an external hammer for AIWB. With what, is what I'm trying to figure out. I've narrowed it down to the P30 (mostly) depending on it not getting any surprisingly negative feedback here. The DA/SA vs LEM is a sidebar, yet an important one. If the masses say it's G2G, I'll likely try it. Unless there is someone close to me to try theirs, I will not be able to feel the LEM trigger prior to purchasing. Believe me, I've been looking to try one since TLG started testing the P30 in 2012, no dice.

LSP mentioned Nyeti's post regarding "street triggers" and I have read that several times. While I'm not an LEO and subsequently will more than likely never hold anyone at gunpoint, he makes a lot of very good points regarding the LEM. I was hoping he, and a few other very experienced HK users we have here chose to chime in, because I'm curious what they have to say. I didn't want to call them out in my original post because I don't want anyone to feel obligated.

[breakingtime91]

Craig, there an easy way to get HK quality and reliability, without the LEM trigger -- get a P2000 or P30 in DA/SA, change to a Wolff 12 pound mainspring, and carry on.

why not just use LEM? I am confused what everyones issue is with it.

[StraitR]

Craig, there an easy way to get HK quality and reliability, without the LEM trigger -- get a P2000 or P30 in DA/SA, change to a Wolff 12 pound mainspring, and carry on.

I didn't realize this option existed, but I really like the sound of it. So, this is similar to putting a D spring in a 92? No ill effects on consistent ignition?

Thanks George.

[breakingtime91]

First, thank you for your initial post, it was exactly the information I was seeking. I think you're right, it's a crying shame we live so far apart.

I am looking to transition from SFA to an external hammer for AIWB. With what, is what I'm trying to figure out. I've narrowed it down to the P30 (mostly) depending on it not getting any surprisingly negative feedback here. The DA/SA vs LEM is a sidebar, yet an important one. If the masses say it's G2G, I'll likely try it. Unless there is someone close to me to try theirs, I will not be able to feel the LEM trigger prior to purchasing. Believe me, I've been looking to try one since TLG started testing the P30 in 2012, no dice.

LSP mentioned Nyeti's post regarding "street triggers" and I have read that several times. While I'm not an LEO and subsequently will more than likely never hold anyone at gunpoint, he makes a lot of very good points regarding the LEM. I was hoping he, and a few other very experienced HK users we have here chose to chime in, because I'm curious what they have to say. I didn't want to call them out in my original post because I don't want anyone to feel obligated.

Name your price tool offers cheap flights. :cool: I have never been to florida before

[GardoneVT]

Maybe I was vague, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page. My response was to GVT's statement... "park a P30 next to a Sig Pro or PX4, and it's hard to see where the extra $400 spent benefits the buyer."

What I mean specifically, is value in relation to comparable options is not my concern and cost is dead last on my list of things to consider, within reason of course. I'd love a Jason Burton 9mm Commander, but don't have $7,500 to pay for one. While the P30 is in fact more expensive than the PX4 or Sip Pro, I have no qualms paying the $900 for one (probably x2) if it in fact does what I need it to do.

Sometimes my business-mindset leaks through here.

I intended the statment to mean that sometimes what the P30 brings to the table isn't worth the cost benefit to the end-user as a point of comparison. Not much point ordering a HE finished pistol when its going to spend its days in a sock drawer, for one example.

In the aggregate, however, the gun's price really is irrelevant as you state. If we lived in some alternate economic universe and my Beretta and every comparable quality servivce pistol costed $25,000 , i'd sign that loan without hesitation.

[The Apprentice]

Another option while not supported by HK is to pick up a da/sa gun and convert it to lem. I dont understand why people think HK are hard to work on you pop 2 pins and fire control parts come out and then put them back in the same order the only tricky part is the trigger return spring which as long as you have the pliers from hkparts is a piece of cake. For about 150 bucks you can get the parts if you reuse your sear with the decocker on it it can be done for 100. Here a pic of my converted p2000 you can see the small gap on the left side of the frame where the decoker was. I have close to 1000 rounds through it a with only a little lube added to the fire control group when I switched it. Overall the gun has closer to 2000 through it.6051

[Cecil Burch]

The problem I had with LEM is that it required dedicated and specific practice to maintain skill. With my Beretta, I could shoot any DA/SA pistol , come back to the 92 and still perform decently with it. With the LEM P30 if I didn't get a live fire session within 14 days of the last one, I was starting over from Square One. I also found it confusing going from "press out on the draw" with the DA/SA system to "WAIT... Ok now take up the very light slack WALL !press " of the LEM. I found it almost like a mirror image trigger

I have not found that at all.

I have been shooting a LEM for about a year and a half as my main gun. I don't get to shoot too many live rounds because of my personal schedule. Doing some dry fire on a nightly basis gives me a pretty dialed in trigger control. Which I proved under quantified and qualified scores at a Tom Givens class in October. In addition, I will occasionally bust out my P07, or my new TP9v2 (both DA/SA) and work with them, and have not yet had any glitch in doing so. On top of that, I just filmed a video where I did a timed and scored drill against Rob Leatham where we each had to shoot three different pistols in the same course of fire - a 1911, and two different XDs. So different trigger systems entirely, none of which I shoot - ever. I also had no warm up round or chance to even dry fire the guns. The result? I finished one place behind Leatham (the video will be free online in probably a month or two so anyone can verify). So in short, I have had no issue with going from a LEM to any other system. Maybe that is in part to having had nyeti give me some coaching tips on the LEM, but it was all verbal - he did it face to face when we didn't have a pistol available. So it's not like I had hundreds of hours of one on one coaching to get decent with the system. Just a bit of expert advice.

[GJM]

I didn't realize this option existed, but I really like the sound of it. So, this is similar to putting a D spring in a 92? No ill effects on consistent ignition?

Thanks George.

Correct

[farscott]

Another option while not supported by HK is to pick up a da/sa gun and convert it to lem. I dont understand why people think HK are hard to work on you pop 2 pins and fire control parts come out and then put them back in the same order the only tricky part is the trigger return spring which as long as you have the pliers from hkparts is a piece of cake. For about 150 bucks you can get the parts if you reuse your sear with the decocker on it it can be done for 100. Here a pic of my converted p2000 you can see the small gap on the left side of the frame where the decoker was. I have close to 1000 rounds through it a with only a little lube added to the fire control group when I switched it. Overall the gun has closer to 2000 through it.

Only speaking for me, but the P30 is much more difficult to detail strip and swap parts than any Glock. The only tools I need for a Glock are a punch, a pair of needle-nose pliers for the magazine catch spring, and a screwdriver for the front sight. I sure do not need to purchase a special set of pliers from Glock to detail strip a Glock. There are no small parts that one can damage in a Glock unless one is really inclined to be Bubba. The P30, on the other hand, is full of springs and pins, and the pins appear to be of different diameters and types.

[StraitR]

why not just use LEM? I am confused what everyones issue is with it.

My only "issue" with LEM is that it's fundamentally unknown to me, where the DA/SA is not only familiar but appreciated. So, I'm not opposed to the LEM, but I'm looking for assurance that it's still a very viable trigger and still worth learning.

It seems like almost everyone on P-F prefers the LEM, and for that reason alone, I am considering one. I realize that what works for one may not work for another, but overall, we have a great collection of individuals here who's judgment and experience I value a great deal.

[GardoneVT]

I have not found that at all.

I have been shooting a LEM for about a year and a half as my main gun. I don't get to shoot too many live rounds because of my personal schedule. Doing some dry fire on a nightly basis gives me a pretty dialed in trigger control. Which I proved under quantified and qualified scores at a Tom Givens class in October. In addition, I will occasionally bust out my P07, or my new TP9v2 (both DA/SA) and work with them, and have not yet had any glitch in doing so. On top of that, I just filmed a video where I did a timed and scored drill against Rob Leatham where we each had to shoot three different pistols in the same course of fire - a 1911, and two different XDs. So different trigger systems entirely, none of which I shoot - ever. I also had no warm up round or chance to even dry fire the guns. The result? I finished one place behind Leatham (the video will be free online in probably a month or two so anyone can verify). So in short, I have had no issue with going from a LEM to any other system. Maybe that is in part to having had nyeti give me some coaching tips on the LEM, but it was all verbal - he did it face to face when we didn't have a pistol available. So it's not like I had hundreds of hours of one on one coaching to get decent with the system. Just a bit of expert advice.

Some elaboration.

I never said LEM can't be used effectively. I simply stated that MY experience -as in, just me- is that maintaining performance with it required more frequent practice FOR ME compared to legacy DA/SA systems. I could very well be the only guy on Earth with that problem and LEM pistols.

But the OP asked for background, and that's mine. I know if I want to stay "good" at running LEM I have to practice VERY frequently compared to my 92. If I went too long between live fire sessions , I'd hit the line and reliably jerk the first 15 odd shots like clockwork until I got back into the groove. So long as I didn't go too long between live fire sessions i'd be OK. But no matter how often I dry fired , the problem remained.

I gave it six months where all I fired was the P30 LEM , since the only ammo available was .40 in winter 2012 and 9mm became harder to find then the truth in Chicago City Hall. The trigger snatch dynamic never changed. I picked up the 92 after not shooting it for that long and equaled my performance with the HK. Guess it just wasn't for me.



My only "issue" with LEM is that it's fundamentally unknown to me, where the DA/SA is not only familiar but appreciated. So, I'm not opposed to the LEM, but I'm looking for assurance that it's still a very viable trigger and still worth learning.

It seems like almost everyone on P-F prefers the LEM, and for that reason alone, I am considering one. I realize that what works for one may not work for another, but overall, we have a great collection of individuals here who's judgment and experience I value great deal.


I should stress that regardless of my experience, you need to try it out yourself. The system has solid merits as Nyeti eloquently summed up, among others. In many ways it is superior to both striker fired and DA/SA , and you'd be remiss to not at least demo it on the clock.

[GJM]

Some elaboration.

I never said LEM can't be used effectively. I simply stated that MY experience -as in, just me- is that maintaining performance with it required more frequent practice FOR ME compared to legacy DA/SA systems. I could very well be the only guy on Earth with that problem and LEM pistols.

But the OP asked for background, and that's mine. I know if I want to stay "good" at running LEM I have to practice VERY frequently compared to my 92. If I went too long between live fire sessions , I'd hit the line and reliably jerk the first 15 odd shots like clockwork until I got back into the groove. So long as I didn't go too long between live fire sessions i'd be OK. But no matter how often I dry fired , the problem remained.

I gave it six months where all I fired was the P30 LEM , since the only ammo available was .40 in winter 2012 and 9mm became harder to find then the truth in Chicago City Hall. The trigger snatch dynamic never changed. I picked up the 92 after not shooting it for that long and equaled my performance with the HK. Guess it just wasn't for me.

Gardone is no dummy.

[breakingtime91]

My only "issue" with LEM is that it's fundamentally unknown to me, where the DA/SA is not only familiar but appreciated. So, I'm not opposed to the LEM, but I'm looking for assurance that it's still a very viable trigger and still worth learning.

It seems like almost everyone on P-F prefers the LEM, and for that reason alone, I am considering one. I realize that what works for one may not work for another, but overall, we have a great collection of individuals here who's judgment and experience I value great deal.

I think thats the great thing about PF.com.. You get to see it from both views. This trigger system is not a gamer/fast trigger system. It just isnt that, which isn't a bad thing. It is in fact a trigger that is made to be carried. It is good at handling crisis situations, easy to manage (no decock), and gives you a long take up and a hammer to keep you safe and free. I will admit the first time I shot a lem (Secondscount came up to the range I shoot at and we had a hell of a time) I didn't like it. The take up was long and the reset was just to long compared to my glock 19! Then I got really thinking about what I needed in a carry gun... Was it a short reset or a trigger/system that lended itself to handling bad situations. 7 months later I have a p2000 (my work horse and a gun I still adore) and a p2sk that I carry all the time.

[breakingtime91]

Some elaboration.

I never said LEM can't be used effectively. I simply stated that MY experience -as in, just me- is that maintaining performance with it required more frequent practice FOR ME compared to legacy DA/SA systems. I could very well be the only guy on Earth with that problem and LEM pistols.

But the OP asked for background, and that's mine. I know if I want to stay "good" at running LEM I have to practice VERY frequently compared to my 92. If I went too long between live fire sessions , I'd hit the line and reliably jerk the first 15 odd shots like clockwork until I got back into the groove. So long as I didn't go too long between live fire sessions i'd be OK. But no matter how often I dry fired , the problem remained.

I gave it six months where all I fired was the P30 LEM , since the only ammo available was .40 in winter 2012 and 9mm became harder to find then the truth in Chicago City Hall. The trigger snatch dynamic never changed. I picked up the 92 after not shooting it for that long and equaled my performance with the HK. Guess it just wasn't for me.





I should stress that regardless of my experience, you need to try it out yourself. The system has solid merits as Nyeti eloquently summed up, among others. In many ways it is superior to both striker fired and DA/SA , and you'd be remiss to not at least demo it on the clock.

I mean this in the nicest way possible. Is it the fact that you just snatch the DA trigger press when u haven't practice in a long time and all the SA are good that you like DA/SA better? That was my tendency when shooting DA/SA. I shot the DA ok and the SA great so I thought all was well...

[LSP972]

What I mean specifically, is value in relation to comparable options is not my concern and cost is dead last on my list of things to consider, within reason of course. I'd love a Jason Burton 9mm Commander, but don't have $7,500 to pay for one. While the P30 is in fact more expensive than the PX4 or Sip Pro, I have no qualms paying the $900 for one (probably x2) if it in fact does what I need it to do.

We are on the same page.;)

.

[GardoneVT]

I mean this in the nicest way possible. Is it the fact that you just snatch the DA trigger press when u haven't practice in a long time and all the SA are good that you like DA/SA better? That was my tendency when shooting DA/SA. I shot the DA ok and the SA great so I thought all was well...

Actually, I like DA/SA because it forces a deliberate trigger pull. With other systems the gun can be fired before the sight picture is acquired. I personally find that about as useful as a 1000HP weedwhacker. What's the point of being physically able to shoot faster if you don't know where the bullet's going?

With DA/SA, I find I can match the speed of the initial press alongside the sight acquisition. Close range, roll it faster with the sight picture. Long range, roll it slower in accordance with the increased precision necessary. With other systems it can psychologically "feel" like the gun's ready, you're ready, but you're "waiting" on the sight picture. Thus anticipation which results in "doh!" snatched shots.

Hope that makes sense. Insofar as misses go, if you don't live fire you're gonna suck regardless of what the gun's rollmark says.
I just sucked less with my 92 after a hiatus then the LEM.

[LSP972]

I spoke to a CBP armorer about the long wait time on broken P2000s, and apparently H&K does their own investigation on the weapon before they will release a repaired or replacement firearm. Obviously there are plenty of pistols in the inventory, but that long of a wait starts to become a headache for inventory logs and issuing out a new serialized pistol.

Yeah, I could see that.

Regarding the ammunition, the active BP guy that used to be on here quite a bit- and whom I exchanged many emails and photos with- stated that that the gun-busting stuff was still in inventory and still being used. Those conversations were in late 2013/early 2014; dunno what happened to the fellow, but I haven't seen him around here in some time.

.

[breakingtime91]

Actually, I like DA/SA because it forces a deliberate trigger pull. With other systems the gun can be fired before the sight picture is acquired. I personally find that about as useful as a 1000HP weedwhacker. What's the point of being physically able to shoot faster if you don't know where the bullet's going?

With DA/SA, I find I can match the speed of the initial press alongside the sight acquisition. Close range, roll it faster with the sight picture. Long range, roll it slower in accordance with the increased precision necessary. With other systems it can psychologically "feel" like the gun's ready, you're ready, but you're "waiting" on the sight picture. Thus anticipation which results in "doh!" snatched shots.

Hope that makes sense. Insofar as misses go, if you don't live fire you're gonna suck regardless of what the gun's rollmark says.
I just sucked less with my 92 after a hiatus then the LEM.

I think were in agreement about pretty much everything. I just find that LEM accomplishes the same thing for ME. I think both are awesome systems, just matters on what fells better to the individual.

[StraitR]

Only speaking for me, but the P30 is much more difficult to detail strip and swap parts than any Glock. The only tools I need for a Glock are a punch, a pair of needle-nose pliers for the magazine catch spring, and a screwdriver for the front sight. I sure do not need to purchase a special set of pliers from Glock to detail strip a Glock. There are no small parts that one can damage in a Glock unless one is really inclined to be Bubba. The P30, on the other hand, is full of springs and pins, and the pins appear to be of different diameters and types.

And while I completely agree that noting trumps a Glock for ease of maintenance and logistics, but that is not my main priority at this point. I have a few Glocks and a tackle box full of spare parts if I'm ever forced into a position of total self sufficiency.

[LSP972]

I'm looking for assurance that it's still a very viable trigger and still worth learning.



It is.

.

[GJM]

Life is too short to not shoot Glock, HK, Sig, Beretta and CZ pistols. It is not that one system is good and the other suck, they are all great in their own way.

[StraitR]

I should stress that regardless of my experience, you need to try it out yourself. The system has solid merits as Nyeti eloquently summed up, among others. In many ways it is superior to both striker fired and DA/SA , and you'd be remiss to not at least demo it on the clock.

The more I read about it, the more I agree with your statement here, but that may require me purchasing one. That's not out of the question, but it's worth careful consideration.

[The Apprentice]

Only speaking for me, but the P30 is much more difficult to detail strip and swap parts than any Glock. The only tools I need for a Glock are a punch, a pair of needle-nose pliers for the magazine catch spring, and a screwdriver for the front sight. I sure do not need to purchase a special set of pliers from Glock to detail strip a Glock. There are no small parts that one can damage in a Glock unless one is really inclined to be Bubba. The P30, on the other hand, is full of springs and pins, and the pins appear to be of different diameters and types.

Special pliers are not required just make life easier and its not like they are a huge expence they are like 20 bucks and have come in quite handy on a few other guns namely a cz p-07 which that one is a complicated gun to detail strip. Unlike the glock none of the pins lock up on my hk so i just use the smallest punch for all the pins but yeah it does have to different sizes but its detail stripping not field stripping so having a few different or more tools is a non issue for me. Is it the same as a glock no its apples and oranges hammer fired vs striker they are different. All I'm saying is its not overly complicated you cant put the wrong pin in the wrong spot and the springs are staight forward.

[StraitR]

Several Years ago I got a HK45 and P30 LEM. Todd's and nyeti's influence !

From the beginning I did better 25 yard head shots than I did with the GL17/19s. I had carried and shot GL21,30,19,17 for 23 years x 10,000 rounds a year. 10 years in AIWB.
It took several thousand rounds to be able to do 7 yard failure drills and draw to head shots as fast and accurately.
I think nyeti sums up the LEM well. Todd certainly proved it can be shot very well.

If it were 1990 and I was coming directly from carrying 1911 cocked and locked I would have gone with a cocked and locked HK. After 23 years with Glocks I was afraid that would bite me.

I have carried P30 LEM 9MM for several years and like the guns accuracy,build quality, and the hammer for AIWB.
I think it is a little harder to get fast splits with the LEM than a Glock.
Thumb on the hammer is comforting in the dark, in the rain, while you are trying to reholster under 2 layers of clothing and get back on your carbine.
Overall I am quite happy with my HK P30 LEM 9mms

Part of me loves the USP45 (thanks GJM) and particularly the USPT45 and its great trigger and is tempted to go back to a cocked and locked gun.

I guess I missed this in my attempt to respond to other posts.

Great info, and a lot of what you said about Glocks/1911's resonates with me. Really appreciate the feedback. The LEM keeps sounding better and better.

[GardoneVT]

The more I read about it, the more I agree with your statement here, but that may require me purchasing one. That's not out of the question, but it's worth careful consideration.

It's only money.;)

Unfortunately, unless you know a very generous business you won't be able to rent a gun long enough to sort out the important stuff, like how well it conceals and your longer-term ability to build skill with it.


I think of it this way. Say you buy or make a LEM P30, and you pay full price. $1200. Add in 6 months worth of ammo at $100 per month and you're up to total cost of $1800. Add in holster and magazines and let's round up to $2000 total.

That's chump change compared to the benefit of either discovering a new firearm system which enhances your real world performance-and thus your real world defensive capability- or finding out for whatever reasons emerge it doesn't work. I know women who spend more then $2000 on shoes per month. In the car modding world ,depending on the brand $2,000 won't even buy a good set of performance wheels and tires.

And you can sell the HK and recoup a decent amount of that $2000 cost if it doesn't work out.

[Cecil Burch]

Some elaboration.

I never said LEM can't be used effectively. I simply stated that MY experience -as in, just me- is that maintaining performance with it required more frequent practice FOR ME compared to legacy DA/SA systems. I could very well be the only guy on Earth with that problem and LEM pistols.

But the OP asked for background, and that's mine. I know if I want to stay "good" at running LEM I have to practice VERY frequently compared to my 92. If I went too long between live fire sessions , I'd hit the line and reliably jerk the first 15 odd shots like clockwork until I got back into the groove. So long as I didn't go too long between live fire sessions i'd be OK. But no matter how often I dry fired , the problem remained.

I gave it six months where all I fired was the P30 LEM , since the only ammo available was .40 in winter 2012 and 9mm became harder to find then the truth in Chicago City Hall. The trigger snatch dynamic never changed. I picked up the 92 after not shooting it for that long and equaled my performance with the HK. Guess it just wasn't for me.





I should stress that regardless of my experience, you need to try it out yourself. The system has solid merits as Nyeti eloquently summed up, among others. In many ways it is superior to both striker fired and DA/SA , and you'd be remiss to not at least demo it on the clock.

I'm well aware you were posting about YOUR experience. In order for the OP to get a well-rounded view of LEM, I posted MY experience that was in direct contrast to yours. At no point did I say mine was the only answer, nor did I say you were wrong for you. I was only giving him more direct feedback to help him make a good decision.

[23JAZ]

My apologies for going off topic. But can someone tell me if a DA/SA Decocker Only P30 exists or can be made.

[StraitR]

It's only money.;)

Unfortunately, unless you know a very generous business you won't be able to rent a gun long enough to sort out the important stuff, like how well it conceals and your longer-term ability to build skill with it.


I think of it this way. Say you buy or make a LEM P30, and you pay full price. $1200. Add in 6 months worth of ammo at $100 per month and you're up to total cost of $1800. Add in holster and magazines and let's round up to $2000 total.

That's chump change compared to the benefit of either discovering a new firearm system which enhances your real world performance-and thus your real world defensive capability- or finding out for whatever reasons emerge it doesn't work. I know women who spend more then $2000 on shoes per month. In the car modding world ,depending on the brand $2,000 won't even buy a good set of performance wheels and tires.

And you can sell the HK and recoup a decent amount of that $2000 cost if it doesn't work out.

HAHA, truth, and I've blown more on less.

And on a brighter note, I think I can accomplish this for less money and ultimately less risk...

I've found a P30 V1 in-stock online for $859, unsure about shipping cost, but my local guy doesn't charge me for transfers. I currently have a VP9, five mags, and an RCS holster for it. I even have the very illusive 10-8 rear on the VP9 that I can cannibalize in the name of science.

So I know how the P30 conceals, and would have a total of seven mags and a holster to get me started (I'm 95% sure P30 will fit in a VP9 holster, but not always the other way around). I can use the RCS while I source a JMCK AIWB.

If that's the case, I should be able to try it for <$1000 initial investment, plus the ammo cost. And either way, shooting $600 worth of 9mm in a purposeful and constructive manner could never be a waste. :cool:

[StraitR]

My apologies for going off topic. But can someone tell me if a DA/SA Decocker Only P30 exists or can be made.

Unless I'm missing something here, it already exists as the P30 V3 (HK# M730903-A5). The safety model is a P30s V3.

ETA: I'm not a fan of Impact Guns, but it shows the standard V3 from the left side...

http://www.impactguns.com/hk-p30-v3-9mm-386in-15-round-mag-227547-642230243705.aspx

[farscott]

My apologies for going off topic. But can someone tell me if a DA/SA Decocker Only P30 exists or can be made.

The standard V3 P30 is DA/SA with the decocker "button" on the rear of the slide to the left of the hammer. The model number is M730903.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=M730903&&mfg=Heckler+%26+Koch&mdlno=P30

[23JAZ]

The standard V3 P30 is DA/SA with the decocker "button" on the rear of the slide to the left of the hammer. The model number is M730903.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=M730903&&mfg=Heckler+%26+Koch&mdlno=P30
Thank you. I was wondering if they had one with the ambi levers that decocked only.

[hufnagel]

Being an HK nut, here's my $0.02...

Get a P30 v3. Shoot the crap out of it for a couple months and see if you're a TDA fan or really want to try LEM. Then either get a LEM version or source the parts to convert it. LEM is definitely one of those things that some people take to and some people don't. I'm in the latter category. I bought a LEM flavored gun (P2000), tried mightily to adapt to it, and hated every minute of it. Managed to break even when I sold it. I'm just a TDA kind of guy I guess.

[Guinnessman]

Sometime around 2006-07 I purchased one of the early P30's in DA/SA. I was bummed that I could not find a LEM at the time and gave it a go. The trigger smoothed out a little with some live and lots of dry fire practice. The Wolff spring that GJM mentions would have been awesome at the time. The gun was accurate and reliable, but the DA/SA trigger was still rough compared to a Sig trigger.

Three years ago, I saw a good deal on a P30 in LEM, and it became my Christmas present for that year. After several range sessions I found my groove with the gun and decided to keep practicing with the LEM. That summer I finally ordered an AIWB holster from JMCK. Once the holster arrived, I practiced both live and dry fire religiously, and then decided to make the gun my new carry gun. I prefer the LEM for AIWB and because of all the reasons Nyeti mentions in his LEM thread. Plus, lots of LEM practice has made me a better shooter with other platforms. If you are snatching a LEM, there is little forgiveness.

The P30 seems to be a very low maintenance platform, with the TRS and recoil spring being the frequently changed parts. The magazines are bombproof, and Todd replied in a thread somewhere that he used 5-6 mags for the whole 90,000 round test. Having magazines that are compatible with the VP9 is a huge plus. Every time I have had questions, HK CS has always answered or called me back, and they are damn nice people to talk to! So maybe they do not hate us after all!

The P30 works well with VP9 holsters, and not the other way around. The JMCK OWB and AIWB both work well for the P30 and VP9.

Good luck with your decision.

[VolGrad]

I didn't take the time to read all the post in this thread but thought I'd throw my two cents in as someone that isn't as dedicated of a shooter as I once was and nowhere near what most of the guys on here either are or at least claim to be. :cool:

I have over time given at least a fair shake or experimentation with most of the makers - GLOCK, S&W M&P, Sigs of all varieties, 1911s, and H&K. I will say after all that I am a GLOCK guy. I prefer the GLOCK trigger over everything but a 1911. I can work the trigger better at speed than any other. In slow fire I can perform well with most any setup but at speed .....

I have tried DA/SA, LEM, etc. and just can't seem to love them. Frankly, it's probably the amount or practice they require to learn and to maintain the required skill. I just don't have the time or ammo budget for that. Besides, I love my GLOCKs so why force something unnecessarily? Makes no sense for me.

Having said all that - if the P30 had a trigger like a GLOCK I'd be all about it. I would have a P30 or three and happy as a clam. I think the ergonomics are the best of any pistol I've ever held and the quality is obviously there. I have tried to love the P30 twice at different times but just couldn't work the trigger at speed. Lately, I have been thinking of giving a third attempt but don't see the need to drop a grand on another attempt knowing the result with be the same.

[1986s4]

More than 10 years ago I acquired a P-2000 LEM, I immediately took it to an IDPA classifier and classified as well as any pistol I had, so much for my learning curve. I was and still am a revolver shooter, I learned to handguns with a .22 revolver. I sold it for some stupid reason I forget. Much later I got a DA/SA P-30 which I liked at first but never really took to, my Beretta was much smoother with a superior trigger so out went the P-30. I still have the mags and I think if I ever get another HK it will be a P2000 LEM or VP9.

[David S.]

I don't really have anything to add about the HK. One thing that concerns me about the LEM is the availability of qualified instructors. It's hard enough to find someone that truly understands and can teach the DA/SA trigger well. I imagine that is worse with the LEM. I'm fortunate enough to live right up the street from Nyeti and Wayne, so it's an non-issue.

If you're comfortable with the DA/SA trigger, I think you should give SIG a second look. In that compact-full size range, check out the SIGPro in particular. They have managed avoid any of the QC issues that SIG has struggled with on their classic other models.

[StraitR]

Sometime around 2006-07 I purchased one of the early P30's in DA/SA. I was bummed that I could not find a LEM at the time and gave it a go. The trigger smoothed out a little with some live and lots of dry fire practice. The Wolff spring that GJM mentions would have been awesome at the time. The gun was accurate and reliable, but the DA/SA trigger was still rough compared to a Sig trigger.

Three years ago, I saw a good deal on a P30 in LEM, and it became my Christmas present for that year. After several range sessions I found my groove with the gun and decided to keep practicing with the LEM. That summer I finally ordered an AIWB holster from JMCK. Once the holster arrived, I practiced both live and dry fire religiously, and then decided to make the gun my new carry gun. I prefer the LEM for AIWB and because of all the reasons Nyeti mentions in his LEM thread. Plus, lots of LEM practice has made me a better shooter with other platforms. If you are snatching a LEM, there is little forgiveness.

The P30 seems to be a very low maintenance platform, with the TRS and recoil spring being the frequently changed parts. The magazines are bombproof, and Todd replied in a thread somewhere that he used 5-6 mags for the whole 90,000 round test. Having magazines that are compatible with the VP9 is a huge plus. Every time I have had questions, HK CS has always answered or called me back, and they are damn nice people to talk to! So maybe they do not hate us after all!

The P30 works well with VP9 holsters, and not the other way around. The JMCK OWB and AIWB both work well for the P30 and VP9.

Good luck with your decision.

Appreciate your feedback Guinnessman, and for directly addressing some of my questions/concerns as well as verifying the holster fitment.



Having said all that - if the P30 had a trigger like a GLOCK I'd be all about it. I would have a P30 or three and happy as a clam. I think the ergonomics are the best of any pistol I've ever held and the quality is obviously there. I have tried to love the P30 twice at different times but just couldn't work the trigger at speed. Lately, I have been thinking of giving a third attempt but don't see the need to drop a grand on another attempt knowing the result with be the same.

Sounds like you would be happy as a clam with the VP9. I'm a longtime Glock shooter, but my VP9 has a much better out of the box trigger, and since I'm not into altering triggers, I can appreciate that. If I was simply looking for an HK to carry, and not specifically a hammer fired gun to replace my 19 for AIWB, I would already have the answer in a VP9.


More than 10 years ago I acquired a P-2000 LEM, I immediately took it to an IDPA classifier and classified as well as any pistol I had, so much for my learning curve. I was and still am a revolver shooter, I learned to handguns with a .22 revolver. I sold it for some stupid reason I forget. Much later I got a DA/SA P-30 which I liked at first but never really took to, my Beretta was much smoother with a superior trigger so out went the P-30. I still have the mags and I think if I ever get another HK it will be a P2000 LEM or VP9.

I'm a big Beretta 92 fan, and a new production Centurion (Especially of the Wilson variety) could be exactly what I'm after, should that ever happen. I know they're sparsely available, but I have a hangup with dedicating my training time and carry to out of production guns and something not easily replaceable.

[breakingtime91]

Appreciate your feedback Guinnessman, and for directly addressing some of my questions/concerns as well as verifying the holster fitment.



Sounds like you would be happy as a clam with the VP9. I'm a longtime Glock shooter, but my VP9 has a much better out of the box trigger, and since I'm not into altering triggers, I can appreciate that. If I was simply looking for an HK to carry, and not specifically a hammer fired gun to replace my 19 for AIWB, I would already have the answer in a VP9.



I'm a big Beretta 92 fan, and a new production Centurion (Especially of the Wilson variety) could be exactly what I'm after, should that ever happen. I know they're sparsely available, but I have a hangup with dedicating my training time and carry to out of production guns and something not easily replaceable.

You may already know this, but your saved P30(VP9) mags will not fit the P2000, if that plays any part into your decision to buy one.

p30 mags work in the p2k. 8 of my training mags are p30.

[StraitR]

I don't really have anything to add about the HK. One thing that concerns me about the LEM is the availability of qualified instructors. It's hard enough to find someone that truly understands and can teach the DA/SA trigger well. I imagine that is worse with the LEM. I'm fortunate enough to live right up the street from Nyeti and Wayne, so it's an non-issue.

If you're comfortable with the DA/SA trigger, I think you should give SIG a second look. In that compact-full size range, check out the SIGPro in particular. They have managed avoid any of the QC issues that SIG has struggled with on their classic other models.

You bring up a great point about the availability of training.

I was up till 3am last night reading all the old LEM threads here, and it seems that the vast majority of people spent a good bit of time and ammo figuring it out. As a husband, father (number two inbound), and a busy professional that gets very little time to shoot in comparison to just five years ago, this concerns me. That just seems like a lot of work to me as a regular joe not needing to constantly hold people at gunpoint or fight tranny hookers inside a car.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that if it takes people (some very accomplished shooters) 10-15k rounds to perfect the LEM, the same thing could be done with the DA/SA in similar or less time/ammo?

A good buddy of mine has a P30 V3 rotting away in his safe (even has the 10-8 sights I use on everything). I've been trying to get him to horse trade it to me for years, but to no avail. I'm going to pick it up this afternoon, do some dry firing and presentations through the week, then shoot it next weekend. I'll probably pick up one of the lighter 12lbs hammer springs (in-stock at Midway) suggested by GJM and give that a try as well.

If I don't like it, I'll consider the LEM. If it's even 50% as workable as my 92A1 or Brig Tac, I'll probably just roll with the DA/SA. This is purely for defense, so as long as I can be reasonably effective right off the bat in that capacity with the increased AIWB safety provided by the presence of a hammer, I'm happy.

[StraitR]

p30 mags work in the p2k. 8 of my training mags are p30.

I stand corrected. Learn something new everyday. Thanks

Edited prior post to avoid additional derail.

[breakingtime91]

You bring up a great point about the availability of training.

I was up till 3am last night reading all the old LEM threads here, and it seems that the vast majority of people spent a good bit of time and ammo figuring it out. As a husband, father (number two inbound), and a busy professional that gets very little time to shoot in comparison to just five years ago, this concerns me. That just seems like a lot of work to me as a regular joe not needing to constantly hold people at gunpoint or fight tranny hookers inside a car.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that if it takes people (some very accomplished shooters) 10-15k rounds to perfect the LEM, the same thing could be done with the DA/SA in similar or less time/ammo?

A good buddy of mine has a P30 V3 rotting away in his safe (even has the 10-8 sights I use on everything). I've been trying to get him to horse trade it to me for years, but to no avail. I'm going to pick it up this afternoon, do some dry firing and presentations through the week, then shoot it next weekend. I'll probably pick up one of the lighter 12lbs hammer springs (in-stock at Midway) suggested by GJM and give that a try as well.

If I don't like it, I'll consider the LEM. If it's even 50% as workable as my 92A1 or Brig Tac, I'll probably just roll with the DA/SA. This is purely for defense, so as long as I can be reasonably effective right off the bat in that capacity with the increased AIWB safety provided by the presence of a hammer, I'm happy.

Very cool, let us know how its working out for you.

[StraitR]

Very cool, let us know how its working out for you.

For sure. Reading about the difficulties had by many and then not being able to try the LEM for myself prior to buying my biggest sticking point.

I see LEM conversion kits, but are there DA/SA conversion kits? So, I can convert a V3 to V2/V1, but can I convert a V2/V1 to V3?

[VolGrad]

Sounds like you would be happy as a clam with the VP9. I'm a longtime Glock shooter, but my VP9 has a much better out of the box trigger, and since I'm not into altering triggers, I can appreciate that. If I was simply looking for an HK to carry, and not specifically a hammer fired gun to replace my 19 for AIWB, I would already have the answer in a VP9.

I am interested in trying one out but will do it with a borrowed gun rather than buying one to try out which is historically how I'd do it.

[The Apprentice]

My p2000 started life as a v3 then added a nickle sear spring and a 12# main spring made the trigger alot better. Then I switched to lem to give it a try because of nytei's right up. Its a challenge for me now to get good with it. Some dedicated practice and swearing of other guns for a bit has made a big difference. I am not a very acomplished shooter I started about 5 years ago and have only been doing any practice with porpose for about the last 2. It hasent been an easy trigger to pick up but I think it is worth the effort to learn.

[StraitR]

For those running a V3, what are your chosen methods of de-cocking?

As a righty...

Two hands - do you break your grip and using your right thumb, or do you remove your support hand and use your left thumb?

SHO - Seems obvious.

WHO - Seems obvious, but somewhat daunting, much like a 1911 with a single sided safety. Hand size plays a big role here.

[hlb14]

I see LEM conversion kits, but are there DA/SA conversion kits? So, I can convert a V3 to V2/V1, but can I convert a V2/V1 to V3?

On the p-series lem guns there is no slot cut in the frame for the decocker to be added.

[Luke]

For those running a V3, what are your chosen methods of de-cocking?

As a righty...

Two hands - do you break your grip and using your right thumb, or do you remove your support hand and use your left thumb?

SHO - Seems obvious.

WHO - Seems obvious, but somewhat daunting, much like a 1911 with a single sided safety. Hand size plays a big role here.


Prior to bobbing the hammer I used my support hand thumb coming off of a ready position. Now that I've bobbed the hammer I either do that or use my strong hand thumb.

And if your looking for a P30 V3 package.. PM me!

[StraitR]

Prior to bobbing the hammer I used my support hand thumb coming off of a ready position. Now that I've bobbed the hammer I either do that or use my strong hand thumb.

And if your looking for a P30 V3 package.. PM me!

I've been playing with a V3 all afternoon that my buddy lent me. I keep going back and forth on de-cocking method and whether or not it's even something I want to deal with.

I just put it on a trigger pull gauge and it this one averages 10.5 lbs DA and 5.1 lbs SA. The gun has probably 2k worth of ammo/dry fire through it in the last five years, and I think it feels pretty good. It stacks more than my Brig Tac and the extra 2 lbs on the DA pull is more noticeable because of it, but all in all, I don't mind the DA/SA sans the de-cocker location/operation.

[LSP972]

... if it takes people (some very accomplished shooters) 10-15k rounds to perfect the LEM, the same thing could be done with the DA/SA in similar or less time/ammo?



What??? Dude… that one is out of left field. Yes, most of us took some time and ammo to "figure it out"… but if you need 10K rounds for that, you've got other issues that need work. Not being critical… just sayin'…


As an example… I recently converted another old-time revolver/1911 guy to HK. After less than 500 rounds, he was "running" that P2000 LEM like a boss.

Sounds to me like you're trying to talk yourself out of a LEM. That's fine, I understand your hesitation to buy one without being able to try it first; but it really isn't that involved.

.

[LSP972]

I see LEM conversion kits, but are there DA/SA conversion kits? So, I can convert a V3 to V2/V1, but can I convert a V2/V1 to V3?

A short HK primer…


First of all, their method of naming the various systems has zero symmetry to it. A V1 USP is completely different from a V1 P2000/P30.

The USP/USP Compact/HK45/HK45 Compact pistols are all alike, in that they are "modular" and can be converted to any of nine different configurations via simply changing internal parts. A V1 example of any of those pistols is a TDA trigger, with the safety lever doubling as a decocker. The V7 is what they now call the LEM version.

OTOH, the P-series (P2000, P30) pistols in LEM configuration are called V1 and V2, the difference being the spring weights. The TDA version of these pistols is referred to as the V3. As noted earlier, the LEM guns have a different frame and slide, both of which are missing the notch for the decocking "button". So, the answer to your question is no. You CAN convert a V3 P-series to LEM, but HK does not want you to do this and will not honor their warranty on a pistol so modified. Why, I couldn't tell you.

To recap; the USP/HK45 series of pistols can be easily converted into any of nine different versions; the large number is a result of being able to choose what side the safety/decock lever is on, having them on BOTH sides, making that lever a decock-only part, etc., etc.

The P2000 and P30 are special snowflakes that come from the factory in either TDA or LEM configuration. You can make a TDA example into a LEM, but not vice versa.

.

[StraitR]

What??? Dude… that one is out of left field. Yes, most of us took some time and ammo to "figure it out"… but if you need 10K rounds for that, you've got other issues that need work. Not being critical… just sayin'…


As an example… I recently converted another old-time revolver/1911 guy to HK. After less than 500 rounds, he was "running" that P2000 LEM like a boss.

Sounds to me like you're trying to talk yourself out of a LEM. That's fine, I understand your hesitation to buy one without being able to try it first; but it really isn't that involved.

.

Then it sounds like you are as surprised as I was, but the info can be found in this thread...

https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-2119.html

Definitely not trying to talk myself out of a LEM, but I'm forced to carefully consider the experience of others here since I can't get my paws on one to try. I may have found a P30L V2 to try. I'll find out tomorrow if one of my local sources actually has it, but it would be new and I'd only be able to dry fire. Better than nothing I suppose.

And thanks for the HK general education in your second post.

[CCT125US]

it really isn't that involved.

Not sure how I missed this thread. I used various v3 P30s for about 4 years and roughly 80K rounds. I switched to a P30 v1 for reasons, and had no trouble passing the iHack within a box of ammo. I have about 5K through that. I was gifted a P2000 v2 in July, same deal, no problems (gasp, even with it being a different gun) Funny thing is, I now shoot and dry fire less and perform measurably better. I would not trade my time spent on the v3 for anything. But for me, the LEM required a solid mag to figure it out. So I agree with LSP972 completely.

[breakingtime91]

Not sure how I missed this thread. I used various v3 P30s for about 4 years and roughly 80K rounds. I switched to a P30 v1 for reasons, and had no trouble passing the iHack within a bix of ammo. I have about 5K through that. I was gifted a P2000 v2 in July, same deal, no problems (gasp, even with it being a different gun) Funny thing is, I now shoot and dry fire less and perform measurably better. I would not trade my time spent on the v3 for anything. But for me, the LEM required a solid mag to figure it out. So I agree with LSP972 completely.

My experience as well. Like shooting a da/sa but the DA trigger press is the same weight.

[LSP972]

I read that thread as it was developing. I had forgotten about it.

Let's just say, I don't think much of it applies to an average shooter looking to achieve competency with an unfamiliar pistol type. That "flip and press" business that Rogers espouses, as I understand it, doesn't work so hot with the LEM trigger.

Regarding dry-firing a LEM… you must hand-cycle the slide after every trigger pull to get the full "feeling". The movement of the slide pre-cocks the hammer. If you just pull the trigger, then pull it again, that second pull will be dreadfully heavy. The original HK DAO V7 was like this, and is why it sold so few copies that HK had to go back to the drawing board.

Here's the drill: remove the magazine and clear first, of course. Leave the magazine out.

1. Cycle the slide
2. Pull the trigger, KEEPING THE TRIGGER FULLY DEPRESSED HARD AGAINST THE FRAME. DO NOT RELEASE THE TRIGGER.
3. Cycle the slide fully
4. NOW release the trigger, SLOWLY, until you feel the reset, then STOP.
5. Pull the trigger again, repeating steps 2-4.

Most complaints involving the LEM trigger revolve around people simply not understanding the need to let the trigger reset and then STOP allowing it to go forward. There are some rather odd (to me) opinions around here regarding that, such as "shooting to reset" is now a Bad Thing. Well, it has worked for a lot of folks for a lot of years, but what do I know?

Anyway… short of shooting the pistol, the above steps are the best way to see how it works. It becomes more clear when actually shooting the pistol.

Again, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I fully understand the approach you are taking to this, and agree with it. While your inability to get your hands on one definitely is an issue, I still believe you're over-thinking the LEM to a certain degree. But I certainly won't criticize you for it; you're about to make a substantial investment, and it needs to be right the first time.

I get that.;)

.

[YVK]

Craig, the more this thread goes, the more polarized opinions you'll get. It, in fact, took me about 7-10K rounds to feel at home with it. I am far from being a talented or even hardworking shooter but I was doing what I could. I feel that right now I'll be willing to test my performance against any LEM shooter out there but it was and is a slow road for me. Then there is CCT, who's a better shooter than I am, and he needed just a solid mag to figure LEM. Then again, there's JV who is advanced rated shooter at Rogers (with DA/SA gun) and FAST coin holder (with Glock, I think) and who couldn't get LEM going for him after 5000 rounds. Then again, there's JoshS who got A in USPSA and a coin with LEM. Then again, there's GJM, a high A level USPSA shooter and multi-times advanced Rogers graduate (with different guns) and he could barely hit a barn with it, figuratively speaking, after in excess of 10K rounds. Then again, Jody mentioned that he got to A level as well with LEM. Then again, and again, and again...


Unfortunately, to some extent this is an exercise in futility. People have different talents, resources, frames of reference, priorities and performance benchmarks. You are going to have to take a risk if you went with LEM and there is no particularly great way of risk assessment apriori. Didn't mean to add confusion, but it is what it is.

[taadski]

Was it a big barn? :)

[YVK]

No, quite a small barn, actually. Then again, he was shooting from the inside.

[GJM]

Craig, the more this thread goes, the more polarized opinions you'll get. It, in fact, took me about 7-10K rounds to feel at home with it. I am far from being a talented or even hardworking shooter but I was doing what I could. I feel that right now I'll be willing to test my performance against any LEM shooter out there but it was and is a slow road for me. Then there is CCT, who's a better shooter than I am, and he needed just a solid mag to figure LEM. Then again, there's JV who is advanced rated shooter at Rogers (with DA/SA gun) and FAST coin holder (with Glock, I think) and who couldn't get LEM going for him after 5000 rounds. Then again, there's JoshS who got A in USPSA and a coin with LEM. Then again, there's GJM, a high A level USPSA shooter and multi-times advanced Rogers graduate (with different guns) and he could barely hit a barn with it, figuratively speaking, after in excess of 10K rounds. Then again, Jody mentioned that he got to A level as well with LEM. Then again, and again, and again...


Unfortunately, to some extent this is an exercise in futility. People have different talents, resources, frames of reference, priorities and performance benchmarks. You are going to have to take a risk if you went with LEM and there is no particularly great way of risk assessment apriori. Didn't mean to add confusion, but it is what it is.

Hey YVK, go easy, as this could attract unwanted attention on another forum -- HK Pro.

[fixer]

As someone who switched from a P30 LEM V2 back to the 92 , I'll offer this. Hopefully it helps you out.

The problem I had with LEM is that it required dedicated and specific practice to maintain skill. With my Beretta, I could shoot any DA/SA pistol , come back to the 92 and still perform decently with it. With the LEM P30 if I didn't get a live fire session within 14 days of the last one, I was starting over from Square One. I also found it confusing going from "press out on the draw" with the DA/SA system to "WAIT... Ok now take up the very light slack WALL !press " of the LEM. I found it almost like a mirror image trigger system.
.

What is written above is a superlative description of why I never went whole hog into the LEM world.

[David S.]

Then again, I spent a week shooting the USPc LEM .40 at a training class. The course standards weren't set very high and SHO/WHO was minimal, but the LEM didn't seem like too big of a deal. Coming from a heavy P226/9mm, the hardest part was adjusting to the felt recoil of a light weight gun in duty forty.

[David S.]

Craig,
I can't remember if this was already mentioned, have you actually called around to the different ranges (Shoot Straight, etc) to see if they have H&K LEM's available for rental?

A quick Google search brought up an HKPro thread that said Shoot Straight Tampa had a P2000SK LEM available for rent. May be worth a day trip. Surely one of their other ranges has something too.

[StraitR]

Craig, the more this thread goes, the more polarized opinions you'll get. It, in fact, took me about 7-10K rounds to feel at home with it. I am far from being a talented or even hardworking shooter but I was doing what I could. I feel that right now I'll be willing to test my performance against any LEM shooter out there but it was and is a slow road for me. Then there is CCT, who's a better shooter than I am, and he needed just a solid mag to figure LEM. Then again, there's JV who is advanced rated shooter at Rogers (with DA/SA gun) and FAST coin holder (with Glock, I think) and who couldn't get LEM going for him after 5000 rounds. Then again, there's JoshS who got A in USPSA and a coin with LEM. Then again, there's GJM, a high A level USPSA shooter and multi-times advanced Rogers graduate (with different guns) and he could barely hit a barn with it, figuratively speaking, after in excess of 10K rounds. Then again, Jody mentioned that he got to A level as well with LEM. Then again, and again, and again...


Unfortunately, to some extent this is an exercise in futility. People have different talents, resources, frames of reference, priorities and performance benchmarks. You are going to have to take a risk if you went with LEM and there is no particularly great way of risk assessment apriori. Didn't mean to add confusion, but it is what it is.

YVK, no added confusion, and thanks for the input. After much reading, I drew the same conclusion. I need to try for myself, and good or bad, there are no performance guarantees. Luckily, I now have access to a P30L V2 (new in a store) to dry fire, which will at least let me physically feel the LEM trigger. So, that's a step in the right direction.



Craig,
I can't remember if this was already mentioned, have you actually called around to the different ranges (Shoot Straight, etc) to see if they have H&K LEM's available for rental?

A quick Google search brought up an HKPro thread that said Shoot Straight Tampa had a P2000SK LEM available for rent. May be worth a day trip. Surely one of their other ranges has something too.

David, the Tampa SS store is a 2.5 hour drive, but it is a good option to have, so thanks. I'll start by fondling the above mentioned V2 I found available at my local SS, and I'll double-check their rental case while I'm there.

[ubervic]

Friendly suggestion: if you feel inclined to select the P30 LEM, go ahead and buy it. Worst-case scenario is that you find you do not absolutely love it and then, in that case, you can sell it off and get back almost all that you paid for it. Not a huge risk.

Good luck with your selection.

[spinmove_]

Friendly suggestion: if you feel inclined to select the P30 LEM, go ahead and buy it. Worst-case scenario is that you find you do not absolutely love it and then, in that case, you can sell it off and get back almost all that you paid for it. Not a huge risk.

Good luck with your selection.

Is it cost prohibitive/not possible to convert LEM equipped pistol back to one of the DA/SA variant systems? Just curious as I've no trigger time/experience behind any HK nor do I have any significant research time into their designs/platforms.

[babypanther]

I learned how to shoot a pistol well with the LEM system at FLETC. They taught taking out the slack to the wall, then pull through the slack. I can't remember where on PF i read it, but basically you roll through the take up, not pull/jerk through. This advice really helped me out with consistency at distance as well as speed up close. I would say that LEM is a harder trigger system to pick up and really excel with as compared to others. It was a lot like driving a stick vs a manual to me, in that I had to actively concentrate on fundamentals of shooting to really do well, vs something like the VP9 where it feels like just pull the trigger and the round magically punches a hole where I want. This also made shooting well with the LEM really rewarding, because I felt like I really accomplished something that took effort and concentration. In my opinion as a CCW or duty gun the juice is well worth the squeeze. I grew to really like the P2000, but it was a small gun to lug around as a duty gun, for me. I have no trigger time on a P30, but to me it checked all the boxes for a work gun. Full size frame, easily configured grip for a variety of sizes and preferences, and I really liked the larger magazine release. I never had a problem finding the mag release on the P2000, but I really prefer the larger one found on the HK45 and VP9, which I am assuming is the same as the P30.


Short version, if you like a P2000, but it was too small, you'll love the P30. LEM isn't for everyone, and that's ok.

[taadski]

Is it cost prohibitive/not possible to convert LEM equipped pistol back to one of the DA/SA variant systems? Just curious as I've no trigger time/experience behind any HK nor do I have any significant research time into their designs/platforms.


Read post 80.

[spinmove_]

Read post 80.

Ah, ok, somehow missed that when reading through.

[NCmtnman]

I really don't have much to add to this LEM party but after carrying and shooting the P2000 LEM for a few years I can say this: It's not a Glock so don't shoot it like one AND if you can envision a two stage AR trigger then that is essentially an LEM V1 P30 trigger. V2 would have a little more tactile feel and only due to weight. Just my thoughts. I sit in the Nyetti camp on the HK LEM system.

[JohnK]

So I will throw my $0.02 in since I switched to a P30 LEM V1 a few months ago.

First, a little background... It was the Summer of '10 and I was a wee little spud just getting serious into concealed carry and practicing shooting. I got into HKs because they seemed cool (don't judge me, at the time I wasn't even aware of the interweb firearm forums world). I ultimately picked up a P30 V3 DA/SA. I REALLY liked that gun. Put roughly 4,500 rounds through that gun. Practiced with it (dry fire) and shot it all the time. The trigger was workable, though certainly not as good as my Sigs out of the box (I acquired a few P226 after this). After enough time on the V3, I came across Todd's test of the LEM. The consistency of trigger pull and simplicity of use, spoke to me. And all around this time, I was starting to play with AIWB carry. I figured, take the dumbass out of the equation (finger off the trigger, gun is decocked) for carrying AIWB. Well... At the time I picked up my first LEM, I had picked up a P226. DA/SA is what I was practicing with for awhile. At least 2.5 years by this point. I'd say between the V3 P30 and my USP compact and fullsize, probably about 8,000-10,000 rounds. Not as much as others on this forum, but coupled it with a lot of dry fire practice as well. When I took the LEM out, I shot 200 rounds and thought "this gun is not for me." Because I couldn't wrap my head around the trigger and I shot it like shit. Shot the P226, and I was really happy with it. It was like the promised land for the TDA triggers to me. So I then completely divested myself of all HKs and associated equipment. I carried and trained with the P226 for awhile until I had the opportunity for a Les Baer 1911 and acquired that, then some other high end 1911s. I am a fiend for 1911s. I shot those exclusively for the last few years.

Fast forward to July of 2015, I developed tendonitis in my right elbow. I am sure the shooting hasn't helped, but it actually started bothering me when I was waxing a car, of all things. When I was doing IDPA, it bothered my elbow with the 1911. I have the Sigs still, but I began thinking of taking courses while running appendix carry and I wanted to take the dumbass out of the equation again.

So I acquired another P30, with the V1 Lem. I believe it was in November of last year. To me, nothing stacks up to my 1911s. So, let me get that out of the way. The inner turmoil I feel by leaving those things in the safe until I get my elbow straightened out is real. Haha. So, in that regard, I don't like it as much as what I used to carry.

What I do like about it: When your finger is off the trigger, the gun is decocked. When you holster, and your thumb is on the hammer, it's that added layer of safety that everyone talks about. I like the fact that you have 16 rounds to get through before you would have to reload in a defensive situation. I like the weight (or lack thereof) when carrying as compared to 1911. And there are no sharp edges.

The LEM. The first time - 200 rounds - I didn't give it a fair shake, honestly. Like many have said here... it isn't for everyone. But it is trainable. I don't believe what someone said that if you don't make it to the range every two weeks that your skills are going to deteriorate. I think that comes into play is if you have a P30 that you want to use as your training and primary, buuuut you have other guns in your safe that you like to f*ck around with in the meantime, whether it's a quick range session or dry firing. I'm at 1,000 rounds since November (which is less than what I was anticipating). And I have probably 2,000 more repetitions for dry-trigger pressing. Rolling through the "wall" is great advice. It has helped me greatly. But I feel when I, myself, have taken as much administrative handling of the pistol out of the equation as possible, that makes me feel more comfortable and safe. While there is more going into operating the firearm (I understand that), at the very simplest, I'm either shooting, or thumbing the hammer to holster. To me, that's worth it.

As for the trigger... As I said earlier, it is trainable. After coming from a SA 1911 to this, I had some work to do. I still have work to do to tighten my groups up for what I feel to be appropriate. But as I sit here typing this, I am very comfortable with my proficiency and it's sitting in a JMCK pointing at my schvanze right now. I am signing up for a class in May with Bob Vogel and I already have signed up for a class in October with Chris Costa. I will be getting a back-up P30 LEM (maybe a P30L) in the near future because I don't want the one I have to get too lonely. And these will be the pistols I will be using for the next year (who knows, maybe even longer).

My advice to OP: Go for it. Use it for a year. Compete, carry, take classes, practice. If you don't feel it's for you after that amount of time, ditch it. The experience will carry over to something else if you go that way. Alternatively, if you feel it's a success, come back and let us know!

[JonInWA]

Not to too deliberately derail the OP's intent with this thread, but I think it would be very valuable and potentially illuminating to comparatively shoot a P30 LEM and a VP9/VP40. It will also be interesting to see how some of our more experienced members here comparatively view the two. And it'll be interesting to see if LEM shooters switch over to the striker-fired VPs.

While I personally have a bit of experience with SA, DA/SA, DAO, DAK and striker-fired pistols, I have zero experience on HK's LEM-so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt:

My thought is that the VP series significantly undercuts the rationale for the LEM, and the light LEM in particular. My thought is that it's an easier action to master, and the guns have equal (or even perhaps slightly superior ergonomics-due to the VP's deeper tang cut on the backstrap), seem to be just as well built and finished, and are significantly less expensive.


Best, Jon

[David S.]

My thought is that the VP series significantly undercuts the rationale for the LEM, and the light LEM in particular. My thought is that it's an easier action to master, and the guns have equal (or even perhaps slightly superior ergonomics-due to the VP's deeper tang cut on the backstrap), seem to be just as well built and finished, and are significantly less expensive.

I'm not sure if I'm totally missing your point, and I apologize in advance if I am:

I guess it depends on your rational for choosing the LEM. The VP-series doesn't, for instance, satisfy desirable "street characteristics" as defined by Nyeti here (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549). It also does not satisfy hammer requirement without the manual safety or decocker that so many AIWB users desire. As far as I know those are the primary reasons that P-F members choose the LEM.

Cheers,
David

[JTQ]

My thought is that the VP series significantly undercuts the rationale for the LEM, and the light LEM in particular.

Best, Jon
While I'm just a casual follower of this thread and all things HK, my understanding of the "rationale" for the LEM is to have a consistent trigger pull, like a striker fired gun (HK VP), but still have a hammer to provide a degree of safety not offered by striker fired guns.

[LSP972]

It will also be interesting to see how some of our more experienced members here comparatively view the two. And it'll be interesting to see if LEM shooters switch over to the striker-fired VPs.



The VP9 is just another Glock clone; although a very nice one. I had one; and traded it for a P30 LEM after a short, aborted honeymoon.

As has been stated, the HK hammer guns offer the added bit of "security" for preventing an unwanted bang while re-holstering. And the LEM trigger provides a a slight fudge factor for preventing an unwanted bang while pointing the pistol at something/someone.

IOW, the VP9 does not "undercut the rationale for the LEM" any more than a Glock does. We're talking concepts here, not ergonomics nor price points.

.

[JonInWA]

Certainly fair enough points to my query. And I have zero experience on LEM, and zero expereince with appendix carry.

One further question: I can easily understand the desirability of a hammer for re-holstering appendix, but does appendix carry then concurrently orient towards the "heavy" LEM, or is the tripperpull stroke distance with the light LEM considered sufficient IAW positioning a thumb on the hammer when re-holstering?

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Certainly fair enough points to my query. And I have zero experience on LEM, and zero expereince with appendix carry.

One further question: I can easily understand the desirability of a hammer for re-holstering appendix, but does appendix carry then concurrently orient towards the "heavy" LEM, or is the tripperpull stroke distance with the light LEM considered sufficient IAW positioning a thumb on the hammer when re-holstering?

Best, Jon

Length matters

[Luke]

Length matters

:(

[LSP972]

One further question: I can easily understand the desirability of a hammer for re-holstering appendix, but does appendix carry then concurrently orient towards the "heavy" LEM, or is the tripperpull stroke distance with the light LEM considered sufficient IAW positioning a thumb on the hammer when re-holstering?

Best, Jon

Sorry, you lost me there.

The whole concept is simple; as you re-holster, keep your thumb pressed firmly over the hammer. If the trigger is being moved by a holster protrusion, hoodie drawstring in the trigger guard (both of which have caused in-holster NDs), or whatever, if it is "strong" enough you will feel the hammer trying to move and can abort the re-holster movement. Which you should do if you feel ANY movement, because you might be able to push past it, and suddenly have OTHER issues on the next presentation. This is the rationale behind The Gadget… tactile awareness, eh?

The bottom line here is that the external hammer allows a degree of control over the pistol that is simply not available with a conventional striker gun.

And, BTW, appendix carry is not the sole villain for in-holster NDs. Just as many, if not more, have occurred from three or nine o'clock (or slight variations thereof) carry… both IWB and OWB.

FWIW, I haven't AIWB carried in years; and then it was strictly a J frame. So pardon me for not being able to decipher your question…:o

.

[YVK]

Length matters

Where did you read about this?



Certainly fair enough points to my query. And I have zero experience on LEM, and zero expereince with appendix carry.

One further question: I can easily understand the desirability of a hammer for re-holstering appendix, but does appendix carry then concurrently orient towards the "heavy" LEM, or is the tripperpull stroke distance with the light LEM considered sufficient IAW positioning a thumb on the hammer when re-holstering?

Best, Jon

The trigger travel distance doesn't help with reholstering safety. It does help reducing (in my case, eliminating) NDs from getting on trigger too early as compared to striker pistols, even if a pretravel pull weight is negligible.

[GJM]

I slightly differ with my friend, YVK, on the value of trigger travel while holstering. Last summer, I did some testing of a 320, Glock and HK, and stuffing a rag in there to simulate fouling, the shorter triggers were more susceptible.

[StraitR]

Well, I've spent the last three days dry firing the loaner P30 V3 I have. Presents fine from a holster, but I've put in plenty of reps with my VP9. Definitely different DA feel than my 92A1 and Brig Tac, not in a good way. It averages 10.5 lbs DA/5.1 lbs SA on my Lyman trigger gauge, but the DA feels SO much heavier than that and stacks more than my 3 year old daughter does those little restaurant jelly packs. Overall, I'm probably spoiled by the DA pull of my BT, but I'm not a fan HK version.

I have not got down to my local shop to feel up the P30L V1 yet. I have finished reading every LEM thread/comment I can find on this board, and there's a lot of them. I don't think it's something I want to mess with, but I won't pass judgement until I get a chance to dry fire it some.

The only other exposed hammer pistol I felt and liked was the P229 Legion. I had a P228 in the 90's and loved it, but sold it off because I was a drunk and thirsty E-2 sailor. So instead of paying for the Legion, I would consider the M11-A1. Scouring PF for M11-A1 info in the meantime. Please feel free to derail my thread with any info you feel like sharing about the Sigs.

[ReverendMeat]

The only other exposed hammer pistol I felt and liked was the P229 Legion. I had a P228 in the 90's and loved it, but sold it off because I was a drunk and thirsty E-2 sailor. So instead of paying for the Legion, I would consider the M11-A1. Scouring PF for M11-A1 info in the meantime. Please feel free to derail my thread with any info you feel like sharing about the Sigs.

Look at the SP2022. Better out of the box DA pull than a 229. Half the price.

[LSP972]

So instead of paying for the Legion, I would consider the M11-A1.

To me, the M11-A1 is just a P228 lower with a slightly thicker P229 slide and a short trigger with the Sig short reset package. I had a Scorpion for a while, which differed only in having a rail, a CeraKote FDE finish, really nice G-10 stocks, and a huge up-swept beavertail that got in the way of keeping one's thumb over the hammer during re-holstering. But that trigger was, without doubt, the best DA/SA trigger I have ever felt on ANY pistol so equipped.

I ran across an M11-A1 at Academy Sports last week, for less $$ than on-line vendors are selling it for. I wish now I had bought it instead of the Brig Tac. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

.

[spinmove_]

Look at the SP2022. Better out of the box DA pull than a 229. Half the price.

I can't agree with this more. My SP2022 runs and feels like melted butter out of the box. I ended up selling my P229 to get back into a G19 because I couldn't logistically justify keeping it around for the purpose that I needed/wanted it for. While I really liked my P229, the DA pull was definitely nothing to write home about.

[David S.]

Craig,

According to Darryl's article (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549), the only quality that the TDA gives up to the LEM is the requirement to de-cock after (and between) action. That's it. If you are willing to "put in the hours and reps" to overcome that limitation, then TDA might be easier to learn and run overall.

With regard to SIGs in particular, I agree, if money is an issue then check out the SIGPro. You can get two of them for the price of a P229. If you're concerned about decocking under stress, consider a DAK.

[ubervic]

Look at the SP2022. Better out of the box DA pull than a 229. Half the price.

THIS.

I ran a P2000sk for about a year, then a P30 for almost another year, both LEM. Shot them okay but not great. Found myself wondering about another platform and moved to SFA (M&P9FS). Enjoyed that gun for almost three years before facing the uncomfortable truth that I was exposing myself to a relatively high risk carrying it AIWB. Discovered the SP2022 and feel like I have little reason to look at any other platform. The DA pull is smooth and at 10 lbs. allows me to be considerably more aggressive than I would be with SFA, and the SA shots are too freaking easy. Sure, decocking is a must; but I drilled that step into my gray matter and muscle memory within 2 days.

[JonInWA]

Interestingly, according to the charts in the current HK catalog, in comparing trigger pull weights and triggerpull lengths between LEM light and VP, both have a triggerpull weight of 4.5 lbs, and the LEM's triggerpull distance is a massive 1mm longer...

Not sure about the reset distance required on the LEM, on my VP it's very short.

So it sounds to me that pretty much the only advantage inherent to the LEM action (or at least the light LEM) is inherent to the hammer-being able to place one's thumb over the hammer, pushing forward on it during re-holstering to mitigate against accidental/negligent discharges-and while it may be the ony advantage, it could indeed be a pretty significant one, particularly when utilizing an appendix holster.

And the P30's slide/barrel is a bit shorter than that of the VP, making for a slightly faster draw and presentation.

Sound about right?

Best, Jon

[LSP552]

I ran across an M11-A1 at Academy Sports last week, for less $$ than on-line vendors are selling it for. I wish now I had bought it instead of the Brig Tac. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
.

Just buy another Glock and tell yourself it's the Indian and not the arrow.......:D

As much as I love my classic P series SIGs, I have a hard time buying another.

[StraitR]

Thanks for the replies.

I'll check out the SP2022 based on the recommendations here, but cost isn't really a factor in my decision. I like the configuration of the M11, and prefer the absence of a rail and beavertail (like a real P228). I'll handle one when I go check out the LEM, but thought I would solicit for input in the meantime.

[NCmtnman]

Interestingly, according to the charts in the current HK catalog, in comparing trigger pull weights and triggerpull lengths between LEM light and VP, both have a triggerpull weight of 4.5 lbs, and the LEM's triggerpull distance is a massive 1mm longer...

Not sure about the reset distance required on the LEM, on my VP it's very short.

So it sounds to me that pretty much the only advantage inherent to the LEM action (or at least the light LEM) is inherent to the hammer-being able to place one's thumb over the hammer, pushing forward on it during re-holstering to mitigate against accidental/negligent discharges-and while it may be the ony advantage, it could indeed be a pretty significant one, particularly when utilizing an appendix holster.

And the P30's slide/barrel is a bit shorter than that of the VP, making for a slightly faster draw and presentation.

Sound about right?

Best, Jon

The trigger pull weight listed for the LEM must be the V1 and not the other variants. My observation was that the LEM trigger 'broke' further back in the draw stroke than the VP. The reset on an LEM is longer than that of an SFA and not distinct like that of an SFA unless you run a V2, V4 or the V4.1 (not a factory option). The V1 doesn't return as fast but that is only something that I've heard discussed and not noticed myself.

[Cecil Burch]

Interestingly, according to the charts in the current HK catalog, in comparing trigger pull weights and triggerpull lengths between LEM light and VP, both have a triggerpull weight of 4.5 lbs, and the LEM's triggerpull distance is a massive 1mm longer...




I don't know where they got that distance measurement. My regular LEM is much, much longer. It moves along an arc similar in length to most TDA pulls.

[JonInWA]

I don't know where they got that distance measurement. My regular LEM is much, much longer. It moves along an arc similar in length to most TDA pulls.



You know, you're right-I mis-read the chart:

http://hkusa.s3.amazonaws.com/20160106154945/HK-USA-Civilian-Catalog-09182015pages.pdf

Key pages are 3, 4 and 5. I suspect the LEM triggerpull length is the same as the DA triggerpull length, 11.5 mm. My bad-that IS significantly longer than the VP models' triggerpull of 6mm.

So the LEM light give you the same triggerpull weight (4.5 lbs), but nearly doubles the amount of triggerpull distance.

I still think that the primary advantage of the LEM is the hammer, with the hammer serving as a type of re-holstering safety. If you like revolvers, and prefer their long, rolling triggerpull characteristic, that might make a LEM to be preferred over a VP striker-fired.

I enjoy revolvers, but personally prefer a striker-fired system most of the time. But then there's my Beretta 92D, which is about to see some serious use this year...

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I think the primary advantage of LEM is a long trigger pull of less weight than most DA triggers.

[JonInWA]

I think the primary advantage of LEM is a long trigger pull of less weight than most DA triggers.

And there's my conundrum: If that's the primary/compelling advantage, wouldn't it make more sense simply to go to a similarly-weighted, but shorter triggerpull-i.e., the striker-fired, in this thread discussion the VPs'?

I get it, I get it-in a situation where one is holding another at gunpoint (threat management), the longer triggerpull is advantageously perceived as providing a bit more of a "safety standoff distance" regarding the triggerpull prior to initiating firing.

Conversely, however, the triggerpull itself becomes arguably more difficult to master/manage, due to the ergonomic shifting going on regarding the triggerfinger/trigger inherent to the longer triggerpull.

Perhaps what I'm muddling my way through to say is that perhaps the LEM "heavy" V2 makes more sense for most of us than the LEM "light" V1 if one is truly to be accorded the advantages of the LEM for threat management-combining triggerpull distance with the heavier (7.3 lb) triggerpull weight.

Despite the nominally longer triggerpull of the LEM "light" V1, my thought is that if want a lighter triggerpull in an HK, the VP option advantageously combines light pull weight with short triggerpull distance-UNLESS you're committed to appendix carry, where the hammer of the LEM can be very advantageous for the user in re-holstering. I'm more than a little skeptical of the longer triggerpull per se providing significantly improved threat management capabilities, as I suspect that much of the sensitivity to discern may be diluted by the adrenaline dump simultaneously occurring.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Don't confuse me as someone arguing for LEM, as I prefer DA/SA. I can't put my finger on it, but I thought the FBI did some research concluding the length of the trigger pull was more important than the weight of the pull, in preventing AD's.

[StraitR]

I got a chance to visit one of my local shops. Unfortunately, they were wrong about having a P30L V2, so I haven't yet felt the LEM trigger. I looked at a M11-A1 and while I liked the ergos, the DA trigger was atrocious and had to be 12+ pounds. I've read that this can vary from gun to gun. I then tried a Mk25, and I really liked everything about it, sans the size. Both the DA and SA trigger pulls were better than my Brig Tac. Feels thinner than, but not much heavier than the M11. I am a little weary of the length for AIWB. It's only a half inch shorter than the Brig Tac, and that's definitely too long. After going back and forth from the 229's to 226's so many times, I forgot to look at the SP2022.

So, I'm not any closer to figuring this out. I may try to visit again soon and have them jokers pull a few M11's out of the back to try different triggers.

[LSP972]

Conversely, however, the triggerpull itself becomes arguably more difficult to master/manage, due to the ergonomic shifting going on regarding the triggerfinger/trigger inherent to the longer triggerpull.



No, it doesn't. Because the long take-up of the LEM provides practically NO resistance, until you hit what is referred to on the forum as "the wall". What that take-up does is provide room for "trigger checking", without the unintended bang highly likely on a short take-up, sensitive trigger… like certain striker gun triggers (including the VP9). It sounds to me like you are confusing the LEM trigger with a true "double action only" (a totally improper term, but that's another discussion) action, such as a Sig DAK or P250. The LEM is nothing like that.

Jon, please don't take this personally… but there should be no conundrum here. And if you would shoot a LEM a bit, you would understand why.

.

[ReverendMeat]

I'll check out the SP2022 based on the recommendations here, but cost isn't really a factor in my decision. I like the configuration of the M11, and prefer the absence of a rail and beavertail (like a real P228). I'll handle one when I go check out the LEM, but thought I would solicit for input in the meantime.

Even ignoring the price, you'll still have a better stock trigger (as long as you can deal with the longer reset) and the short external extractor on the SP2022, plus no grip screws to deal with, compared to the M11A1.

[ubervic]

I am beginning to regret my commentary, as I sense that I have done little more than contribute to 'analysis paralysis.'

[StraitR]

Even ignoring the price, you'll still have a better stock trigger (as long as you can deal with the longer reset) and the short external extractor on the SP2022, plus no grip screws to deal with, compared to the M11A1.

Yeah, I totally forgot to check out the SP. It was a short and hurried trip, so I'll go back soon.


I am beginning to regret my commentary, as I sense that I have done little more than contribute to 'analysis paralysis.'

Not at all.

[1slow]

What do is the consensus on the LEM 4.1 trigger set ?

[HCM]

Don't confuse me as someone arguing for LEM, as I prefer DA/SA. I can't put my finger on it, but I thought the FBI did some research concluding the length of the trigger pull was more important than the weight of the pull, in preventing AD's.

Not sure about the FBI But the German federal police did such research - hence the long, light trigger pulls of the LEM, PPQ etc,

[YVK]

What do is the consensus on the LEM 4.1 trigger set ?

None. A privately arranged overseas group purchase has had some problems and nothing has been delivered yet. Rumors that HK USA will have those parts soon have not been substantiated.

[1slow]

HK Forum says they are available from HK USA. I do not know.

[YVK]

I'll give HK a call when I can.

[StraitR]

So is this the Wolff 12# hammer spring that will reduce the DA pull on a P30?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/3415246104/wolff-hammer-spring-hk-usp-full-size-and-compact

It says USP, but HK Parts lists the USP and P30 as being the same spring, albeit the heavier factory option.

[GJM]

So is this the Wolff 12# hammer spring that will reduce the DA pull on a P30?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/3415246104/wolff-hammer-spring-hk-usp-full-size-and-compact

It says USP, but HK Parts lists the USP and P30 as being the same spring, albeit the heavier factory option.

https://www.gunsprings.com/HK - HECKLER & KOCH/USP/cID1/mID26/dID136#166

[JonInWA]

Cancelled to include quote with response for context. "Real" response below.

[JonInWA]

No, it doesn't. Because the long take-up of the LEM provides practically NO resistance, until you hit what is referred to on the forum as "the wall". What that take-up does is provide room for "trigger checking", without the unintended bang highly likely on a short take-up, sensitive trigger… like certain striker gun triggers (including the VP9). It sounds to me like you are confusing the LEM trigger with a true "double action only" (a totally improper term, but that's another discussion) action, such as a Sig DAK or P250. The LEM is nothing like that.

Jon, please don't take this personally… but there should be no conundrum here. And if you would shoot a LEM a bit, you would understand why.

.

Absolutely nothing personal taken-and you're really correct, I do need to spend some hammer time with an LEM to truly understand and contextualize it. Thanks for the responses-and your patience.

Best, Jon

[StraitR]

https://www.gunsprings.com/HK - HECKLER & KOCH/USP/cID1/mID26/dID136#166

I started my search for the spring on their website, but frankly, it's terrible. No item numbers, no search window, and they specifically say USP springs are not to be used in the HK45 and P30. Utter confusion, so I went to HKparts/midway.

I just went back and looked, but can't find - HECKLER & KOCH/USP/cID1/mID26/dID136#166 Is this it....

6135

[GJM]

None. A privately arranged overseas group purchase has had some problems and nothing has been delivered yet. Rumors that HK USA will have those parts soon have not been substantiated.

Hey, I only waited 4 or 5 years for a V9 plate for my HK45 -- you need to think years not months.

[Cincinnatus]

My only "issue" with LEM is that it's fundamentally unknown to me, where the DA/SA is not only familiar but appreciated. So, I'm not opposed to the LEM, but I'm looking for assurance that it's still a very viable trigger and still worth learning.

It seems like almost everyone on P-F prefers the LEM, and for that reason alone, I am considering one. I realize that what works for one may not work for another, but overall, we have a great collection of individuals here who's judgment and experience I value a great deal.

Something else to consider is that, if you carry AIWB, for some people, the DA/SA hammer will gouge your belly, especially if you carry it cocked and locked with a P30s. This is another reason LEM excels for AIWB.

[Luke]

You can bob the hammer of the TDA (still pointless if cocked and locked). The "spur" is hard rubber. Comes right off and is almost as flush as the LEM. Makes a huge difference while sitting and bending.

[StraitR]

Something else to consider is that, if you carry AIWB, for some people, the DA/SA hammer will gouge your belly, especially if you carry it cocked and locked with a P30s. This is another reason LEM excels for AIWB.

Good points. No interest in a safety and C&L. I've been fortunate enough to have a P30 V3 loaned to me by a friend, so I've been carrying it around the house at night in a crappy UM Stow-n-go holster with no ill effects.

Heading to my shop again tonight. Going to check out a 2022, and then compare to P30 V3 and various P229's. Like the Legion, but not happy about spotty failures here and elsewhere. Love the trigger feel, but it's deadlined a gun here, so it's not something I want in a serious gun. I don't need/want an accessory rail for carry, so the M11-A1 is appealing. I simply can't decide, but I'm to a point that I'm over thinking it. I've now shot the P30 V3 and a standard nitron P229. I prefer the 229 but am more worried about reliability issues in the SIG.

I've created a hardware pitfall, and I know better. I plan on choosing one tonight and dedicating myself to it for the next year.

[LSP972]

I plan on choosing one tonight...

We await with bated breath…

Seriously, you might want to think it some more; hell, you've been at it this long.;)

.

[YVK]

Hey, I only waited 4 or 5 years for a V9 plate for my HK45 -- you need to think years not months.

Your timing is immaculate, my friend - I have just received a notification that the first half of that private shipment made it to the US.


Something else to consider is that, if you carry AIWB, for some people, the DA/SA hammer will gouge your belly, especially if you carry it cocked and locked with a P30s. This is another reason LEM excels for AIWB.

You can bob the hammer of the TDA (still pointless if cocked and locked). The "spur" is hard rubber. Comes right off and is almost as flush as the LEM. Makes a huge difference while sitting and bending.

Peeps on HKPRO say there is a factory bobbed DA/SA hammer.

[David S.]

I don't need/want an accessory rail for carry, so the M11-A1 is appealing.

?? All your competing options have rails. The rail costs you nothing, and it adds options in case you change your mind down the road.

[StraitR]

We await with bated breath…

Seriously, you might want to think it some more; hell, you've been at it this long.;)

.

You have a point. lol

I decided to go with the P30 V3. Could have gone with either, just needed to find a good reason to pick one. HK seems more of a sure bet for reliability, which is more important to me than an out of the box smooth trigger. My regular shop has 12 V3's, but they're not received into inventory yet. I'll go back tomorrow or Saturday and a friend of mine will let me pick from the bunch. Then I'll give him his P30 back. ;)


?? All your competing options have rails. The rail costs you nothing, and it adds options in case you change your mind down the road.

Agree that it adds options, but my only use is a WML, which is not important to me in a carry gun. Either way, the P30 has a rail, so I have options. :cool:

[Cincinnatus]

You have a point. lol

I decided to go with the P30 V3. Could have gone with either, just needed to find a good reason to pick one. HK seems more of a sure bet for reliability, which is more important to me than an out of the box smooth trigger. My regular shop has 12 V3's, but they're not received into inventory yet. I'll go back tomorrow or Saturday and a friend of mine will let me pick from the bunch. Then I'll give him his P30 back. ;)



Agree that it adds options, but my only use is a WML, which is not important to me in a carry gun. Either way, the P30 has a rail, so I have options. :cool:

Good choice. And with the V3, if you decide to try LEM sometime, you can always convert it over.

[StraitR]

Good choice. And with the V3, if you decide to try LEM sometime, you can always convert it over.

Agreed. And the conversion parts could be sold off and gun converted back to V3. The focus for me was whether or not the P30 was a good fit, and the LEM was an afterthought topic that seems to always take over HK discussions here on PF. Either way, I'll run it as a DA/SA for at least a year or two just to wrap my mind around the P30 before deciding if a different trigger system would make sense for me. Sooner or later, I'll find an LEM to try. One of you knucklheads are bound to be down here at Disney eventually. ;) I wasn't trying to make money part of the equation, but I do have seven mags, a RCS holster (for IDPA), and set of 10-8 sights from my VP9 to use. That's a $500 bonus. The holster is a little tight (even on the VP9), but workable, and nothing a hair dryer/heating pad and 15 minutes can't work out.

Now I just need to source a JMCK George, which is like waiting for an NFA stamp.

[breakingtime91]

Agreed. And the conversion parts could be sold off and gun converted back to V3. The focus for me was whether or not the P30 was a good fit, and the LEM was an afterthought topic that seems to always take over HK discussions here on PF. Either way, I'll run it as a DA/SA for at least a year or two just to wrap my mind around the P30 before deciding if a different trigger system would make sense for me. Sooner or later, I'll find an LEM to try. One of you knucklheads are bound to be down here at Disney eventually. ;) I wasn't trying to make money part of the equation, but I do have seven mags, a RCS holster (for IDPA), and set of 10-8 sights from my VP9 to use. That's a $500 bonus. The holster is a little tight (even on the VP9), but workable, and nothing a hair dryer/heating pad and 15 minutes can't work out.

Now I just need to source a JMCK George, which is like waiting for an NFA stamp.


Welcome brother, it's nice over here

[Mike C]

What do is the consensus on the LEM 4.1 trigger set ?

My understanding is that the kit just repositions the trigger about three millimeters rearward at rest but don't quote me on the numbers as I could be completely wrong.

It would be great for someone like me with midget digits. Sadly though in my understanding it does absolutely nothing for reset. I do think the CH 4.1 would be an interesting combo with a GGI reduced reset carry perfection package.

Last time I called HK CS a month ago they still didn't have the parts. It's interesting that someone says they are in stock because I don't think they were expecting to have them till late spring early summer. I will certainly have to check today. I have a good excuse now because I have to order some extra stuff from them anyhow.

I'd love to hear some feed back about these parts once someone gets them in a gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

^^^The number I've heard was 5 mm, not 3. So, it is about 1/3 reduction of a takeup. I am uncertain what it will do from performance standpoint. My current expectation is "next to nothing", but I could be wrong. I will have them mated to my GGI reduced reset LEMs as soon as I get them.

[Mike C]

^^^The number I've heard was 5 mm, not 3. So, it is about 1/3 reduction of a takeup. I am uncertain what it will do from performance standpoint. My current expectation is "next to nothing", but I could be wrong. I will have them mated to my GGI reduced reset LEMs as soon as I get them.

That is significant in terms of reduction and though I personally am not thinking in terms of great performance gains or anything like that. I am thinking the mod will assist in optimal trigger finger placement for the first shot or when I have to completely come off the trigger to hard registration and am forced to get back on the trigger. Before ever seeing information about the CH 4.1 LEM I had played around with running the trigger from a fully forward position and running from a slightly more rearward position and what I found was that optimal placement of the trigger finger was achievable from a slightly more rearward resting position and allowed me much better manipulation of the trigger all the way through the press. I don't think that Glocks are the only guns that are particular about trigger finger placement, especially for me and my short index fingers.

edited to add: YVK, I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you get a hold of those parts and get them installed.

[Mike C]

Just got off with HK CS. Parts are not in, rep. said they are over due and hopes to see them in 30-45 days.

[Polecat]

Mine just showed in the mail today. Granted I had pre-ordered about 6 wks ago. He said then it was a crapshoot, as alot of people had ordered them, and he wasn't sure if I would get the first batch or not.

[StraitR]

So in an unexpected twist, when I showed up today to pick out a V3, my buddy had actually found a V1 (LE model w/ 3 mags & NS). After a half hour of messing with both variants in the back offices, I clearly preferred the LEM. I didn't see that coming. We installed my rear 10-8 sight, and it shot a touch low with the front factory mepro night sight at 10 yards. Hopefully it will regulate at 25y when I get a chance to shoot it more next weekend.

The journey begins.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1712/25188169261_dd5ceb4342_c.jpg

[breakingtime91]

So in an unexpected twist, when I showed up today to pick out a V3, my buddy had actually found a V1 (LE model w/ 3 mags & NS). After a half hour of messing with both variants in the back offices, I clearly preferred the LEM. I didn't see that coming. We installed my rear 10-8 sight, and it shot a touch low with the front factory mepro night sight at 10 yards. Hopefully it will regulate at 25y when I get a chance to shoot it more next weekend.

The journey begins.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1712/25188169261_dd5ceb4342_c.jpg

=D

[Mike C]

Congrats StraitR, hope you end up loving it. I highly recommend the 45C slide lock levers. Depending on your grip you may find them useful.

[LSP972]

I highly recommend the 45C slide lock levers.

Uh… what??? You're saying to replace the P30 levers with levers from an HK45C?

.

[breakingtime91]

Uh… what??? You're saying to replace the P30 levers with levers from an HK45C?

.

I think he means the slim levers

[taadski]

Uh… what??? You're saying to replace the P30 levers with levers from an HK45C?.


http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Slim-Slide-Release-Lever-Set-HK-P2000-P2000SK-HK45-HK45C-p2388.htm


Common, dude. This sort of failure to keep up with the finer details is going to get you banned from spouting about the LEM. You have been warned! ;)

[GJM]

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Slim-Slide-Release-Lever-Set-HK-P2000-P2000SK-HK45-HK45C-p2388.htm


Common, dude. This sort of failure to keep up with the finer details is going to get you banned from spouting about the LEM. You have been warned! ;)

WTF are you doing up so early? Oh, probably researching your new IDPA blaster.

[breakingtime91]

They work for the p30 right? Just doesn't retain the right slide release during take down.

[BJXDS]

So in an unexpected twist, when I showed up today to pick out a V3, my buddy had actually found a V1 (LE model w/ 3 mags & NS). After a half hour of messing with both variants in the back offices, I clearly preferred the LEM. I didn't see that coming. We installed my rear 10-8 sight, and it shot a touch low with the front factory mepro night sight at 10 yards. Hopefully it will regulate at 25y when I get a chance to shoot it more next weekend.

The journey begins.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1712/25188169261_dd5ceb4342_c.jpg

NICE, Your quest has peaked my interest and made me re-think some of my choices.

I have been following with interest, but gotta be honest my ADD kicked in, There are to may variants across the HK line for me to keep up with. Did you get the P30S, no decocker/saftey? Is my understanding correct, P30S LEM = DAO/No decocker/saftey? The advantage being a longer DA trigger pull than a SF, basically a DA SF with hammer?

I started with revolvers and of course 1911's, when Glock first hit the market I experimented with them, then HK's/Sig's for about 10 years. For a long time I just couldn't buy into the ugly ass SF plastic gun concept. I always like the HK's but price and availability were prohibitive, and I felt the HK DA/SA feel was not as nice as the revolvers I was use to, so I stuck with revolver. The idea at the time was that 45/357 were the only sensible caliber choices, That has changed also.

After accepting the revolver/1911 limitation I standardized on Glock, then PPQ. Reliability, availability,price,accessory support, and ease of shooting, especially for new shooters won out, Glock Winner. But to be honest I think there is a lot of room for error with a SF gun, ESPECIALLY for someone just starting out in the CW world, like when introduced to wife and kids.

Nothing wrong with SF, and revolvers/1911's will always have a special place in my heart, but I am seriously going to rethink and look at the LEM option.

Pleas keep us updated on your experience and opinions.

[YVK]

^^^^P30S LEM doesn't exist. There was a very limited run of P30LS LEM guns but they are very rare. All readily available 30S models are DA/SA with decocker and safety.


http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Slim-Slide-Release-Lever-Set-HK-P2000-P2000SK-HK45-HK45C-p2388.htm


Common, dude. This sort of failure to keep up with the finer details is going to get you banned from spouting about the LEM. You have been warned! ;)

LOL.


To OP: find out the HK part number and call HK USA. HKParts marks up their prices by 100%-300%. Get some spare trigger return springs while you're at it, especially if you are going to use a heavy return spring.

[StraitR]

NICE, Your quest has peaked my interest and made me re-think some of my choices.

I have been following with interest, but gotta be honest my ADD kicked in, There are to may variants across the HK line for me to keep up with. Did you get the P30S, no decocker/saftey? Is my understanding correct, P30S LEM = DAO/No decocker/saftey? The advantage being a longer DA trigger pull than a SF, basically a DA SF with hammer?

My understanding of current P30 model variants.

P30 - Standard P30 - Offered in V1 and V3 currently, from what I've seen.
P30s - Has external manual safety on left side of frame and de-cocker on rear of the slide. Offered in V3 only.
P30L - Half inch longer than standard P30. Not sure what variants and safety options exist, as I wasn't interested in an L model.

V1 - Light LEM. No de-cocker on LEM guns.

V2 - LEM. Again, no de-cocker on LEM. Didn't see any for sale, and read that they stopped offering it. Can be made with a spring swap.

V3 - DA/SA. De-cocker on rear of slide.


My one and only bit of advice that I can give at this point would be to make sure you get a chance to feel them all.



To OP: find out the HK part number and call HK USA. HKParts marks up their prices by 100%-300%. Get some spare trigger return springs while you're at it, especially if you are going to use a heavy return spring.

Not interested in changing any controls, it works perfectly as is for me, but I'll call HK USA about spare TRS's and maybe try a heavy. Thanks.

[LSP972]

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Slim-Slide-Release-Lever-Set-HK-P2000-P2000SK-HK45-HK45C-p2388.htm


Common, dude. This sort of failure to keep up with the finer details is going to get you banned from spouting about the LEM. You have been warned! ;)

I was aware of those; there are several iterations of them, in fact.

What I thought he was saying was to use HK45C-specific levers.

.

[LSP972]

... spouting about the LEM.

I'm about done with that, anyway.

.

[HCM]

Since we are down the P30 rabbit hole, a question.

I seen two different P30L / LS .40 calibers offered for sale with 40 to 0 conversion barrels. Any idea who makes these ?

[taadski]

I was aware of those; there are several iterations of them, in fact.

What I thought he was saying was to use HK45C-specific levers.


I'm about done with that, anyway.


I was just making a funny. ;). Don't stop sharing. Your LEM passion is muy viril. :D


More importantly though, how ya liking that 229? :p

[StraitR]

I was just making a funny. ;). Don't stop sharing. Your LEM passion is muy viril. :D




Agreed. I heard LEM is making a PF comeback. :D

[LSP972]

I was just making a funny. ;).

I know. I guess I'm just weary of trying to make the same points over and over… and over… and over... and over… nature of the beast, as new folks come on board, I realize that.

The M11A-1 was a pleasant little jaunt down memory lane. But it cannot come close to supplanting the USPc; I knew that going in. It will be an interesting diversion when I need one.

What I need to do is find someone who wants to deal on a slightly-used Wilson Brig Tac…:(

.

[Mike C]

Uh… what??? You're saying to replace the P30 levers with levers from an HK45C?

.

That is exactly what I am saying. (They come standard on the P30s so why not slap them on a LEM gun?) I love them on the P30. It was the lazy solution to avoid adjusting my aggressive thumbs forward grip that would constantly cause a failure to lock back on last round.

Edited to add: I was not talking about the slim slide release levers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

That is exactly what I am saying. (They come standard on the P30s so why not slap them on a LEM gun?) I love them on the P30. It was the lazy solution to avoid adjusting my aggressive thumbs forward grip that would constantly cause a failure to lock back on last round.

Edited to add: I was not talking about the slim slide release levers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you change the TRS as well?

.

[Mike C]

No the standard TRS on the P30 works fine with the 45c levers and still retains the levers upon disassembly so long as you stick with a TRS for the P30 with the one leg that is longer than the other it will be fine. I'm not sure 100% if that is what you're asking.

Sorry not firing on all cylinders right now. It's late and I had a long BJJ seminar today I'm beat physically and mentally.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

No the standard TRS on the P30 works fine with the 45c levers and still retains the levers upon disassembly so long as you stick with a TRS for the P30 with the one leg that is longer than the other it will be fine. I'm not sure 100% if that is what you're asking.

Sorry not firing on all cylinders right now. It's late and I had a long BJJ seminar today I'm beat physically and mentally.


Well, at least you managed to keep your wits about you long enough to not botch that last sentence. One missed letter and you may have never recovered here on PF. ;)

I wish you a speedy recovery.

[Mike C]

Yeah... I probably should have spelled Brazilian Ju Jitsu out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

I'm not sure 100% if that is what you're asking.



Yup, that's what I was asking.

When I first read your post #158, I wasn't really sure if you were serious, or just a 'tard.:o

Since I have examples of both pistols, I tried it; whaddya know, it works. And a quick perusal with the calipers shows that all the critical load-bearing areas have the same dimensions, so there should be no long-term ailments.

Dunno why I should be surprised; my newest "convert" to HK was expressing amazement yesterday at how so many parts interchange between models (including holsters)… and I was looking down at the new Sig in my hand, wondering if it was going to function properly… or not. Times change.

Anyway… apologies for doubting you.

.

[CCT125US]

...so many parts interchange between models

I did up a parts cross listing for the P30, P2000, P2000SK and .45C that is saved somewhere, and was surprised by the compatibility. Surely someone on the Pro site has done the same thing.

[LSP552]

Dunno why I should be surprised; my newest "convert" to HK was expressing amazement yesterday at how so many parts interchange between models (including holsters)… and I was looking down at the new Sig in my hand, wondering if it was going to function properly… or not. Times change.

.

I predict that it will work fine, and you will be shooting it faster and more accurately than your USPc after the 2nd range trip.......just like the 229 Scorpion you traded off..:D

[VolGrad]

Sounds like you would be happy as a clam with the VP9. I'm a longtime Glock shooter, but my VP9 has a much better out of the box trigger, and since I'm not into altering triggers, I can appreciate that. If I was simply looking for an HK to carry, and not specifically a hammer fired gun to replace my 19 for AIWB, I would already have the answer in a VP9.

I was able to drop by my LGS yesterday and handle/dry-fire a VP9 yesterday. The trigger felt more GLOCK-like as expected but I need to find one to actually shoot before considering a purchase. I have no idea why but the VP9 doesn't feel as awesome in the hand as the P30. This is going to be a stupid question and probably not the place to ask it but are they supposed to be the same externally?

[Mike C]

Yup, that's what I was asking.

When I first read your post #158, I wasn't really sure if you were serious, or just a 'tard.:o

Since I have examples of both pistols, I tried it; whaddya know, it works. And a quick perusal with the calipers shows that all the critical load-bearing areas have the same dimensions, so there should be no long-term ailments.

Dunno why I should be surprised; my newest "convert" to HK was expressing amazement yesterday at how so many parts interchange between models (including holsters)… and I was looking down at the new Sig in my hand, wondering if it was going to function properly… or not. Times change.

Anyway… apologies for doubting you.

.


No worries, you don't know me from Adam, this is the internet after all and there is no short supply of stupidity. I myself have always been leery of new sources of information. Hell, even trusted sources. What is that old Russian proverb? "Trust but verify." As to no long term issues I'd have to find my old log but I had a P30 that had about 5K through it and another with just around 2k with those leavers installed. Neither ever seemed to have any ill effects. I know that is only a sample of two but it at least gives some idea.

[LSP972]

This is going to be a stupid question and probably not the place to ask it but are they supposed to be the same externally?


Not a stupid question, and yes, they are different. The replaceable back straps on the VP 9 are not as "gently" contoured as the P30/P2000/HK45C replaceable back straps. I no longer have a VP9 to illustrate this (and its one reason I traded mine off fairly soon after buying it), but the back strap on the VP slopes nicely to the point where the hollow of one's palm fits… and then takes a nose dive straight down. It leaves a void in my palm- exactly like the HK45 full size does- that causes both pistols to squirm in my hand under recoil.

There are other minor differences in external configuration, but that and the "chin" on the front end of the dust cover are the two most prominent… IMO, anyway. A lot of folks have pissed and moaned about the cocking pads on the rear of the slide; to the rest of us, that's a non-issue.

Blue bicycles vs red bicycles, and all of that…;)

.

[LSP972]

I predict that it will work fine, and you will be shooting it faster and more accurately than your USPc after the 2nd range trip.......just like the 229 Scorpion you traded off..:D

It did work fine, for 200 rounds of factory ball. One failure to go into battery, but that was from slide lock/using the slide lock lever, and we know Sigs respond better to "power stroking"...:cool: Besides, I've got that puppy greased-up better than a couple of female mud wrestlers.

Dunno about the shooting better part… remember that the Scorpion was pitted against a .45 Compact. The USPc Euro-Pellet has much less recoil, and the best sights extant for my screwed-up eyeballs.

Hey… you still got one of those issue plainclothes holsters for the P228 you aren't in need of? I gave mine to David a while back; he needed it for Jessica.

.

[VolGrad]

Not a stupid question, and yes, they are different.
Maybe not a stupid question but a lazy one. I should have just looked at images of both side by side. The differences are clearly evident. To me the VP9 looks more like a Walther than a HK in a way. It just doesn't look as well thought out or well finished. It's like they made a budget version of the P30 ... oh and then changed the whole trigger system too. Weird. I like the VP9 trigger better but wouldn't be happy with the overall pistol. At $700 street price it still isn't even a budget pistol as I called it.

[Luke]

Maybe not a stupid question but a lazy one. I should have just looked at images of both side by side. The differences are clearly evident. To me the VP9 looks more like a Walther than a HK in a way. It just doesn't look as well thought out or well finished. It's like they made a budget version of the P30 ... oh and then changed the whole trigger system too. Weird. I like the VP9 trigger better but wouldn't be happy with the overall pistol. At $700 street price it still isn't even a budget pistol as I called it.

Not to get too off track here but Pat Kelley is selling what looks like a new VP9 with 4 Taylor freelance +5's for $600 right now..

[TheNewbie]

Random question, but didn't want to start a whole new thread just for it.

Has there ever been reports of the internal locks on HKs locking under recoil like in the S&W revolvers?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Random question, but didn't want to start a whole new thread just for it.

Has there ever been reports of the internal locks on HKs locking under recoil like in the S&W revolvers?I'm a long time user and frequent visitor to HKPro aside from my department using the P30 and never have I heard of an issue.

[TheNewbie]

I'm a long time user and frequent visitor to HKPro aside from my department using the P30 and never have I heard of an issue.

I haven't either and I don't know that it is even a possibility in the way the HK lock is set up.

[LSP552]

Hey… you still got one of those issue plainclothes holsters for the P228 you aren't in need of? I gave mine to David a while back; he needed it for Jessica.

.

I might have one stuck in the dead holster box. Will look and let you know.

[breakingtime91]

Random question, but didn't want to start a whole new thread just for it.

Has there ever been reports of the internal locks on HKs locking under recoil like in the S&W revolvers?

pretty positive it is impossible to enable unless you use the key.

[LSP972]

I might have one stuck in the dead holster box. Will look and let you know.

Thanks. Hope springs eternal…

.

[NCmtnman]

To OP: find out the HK part number and call HK USA. HKParts marks up their prices by 100%-300%. Get some spare trigger return springs while you're at it, especially if you are going to use a heavy return spring.

Are the heavier TRS more prone to failure vs that of the more light weight TRS?

[Mike C]

I am not YVK but that is the general consensus and has been my experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

I can't state that as a fact but I, on a basis of my anecdotal experience, believe it is true. In my early times I broke two heavy springs back to back within 8K of total trigger pulls, live and dry. I am yet to break a light spring on my main game gun that has surpassed that threshold already although not by much.

[CCT125US]

My v2 P2000 with square / heavy TRS is at 4450 live and easily triple that dry, not sure previous owners pull count. I should really take care of that..

[NCmtnman]

I can't state that as a fact but I, on a basis of my anecdotal experience, believe it is true. In my early times I broke two heavy springs back to back within 8K of total trigger pulls, live and dry. I am yet to break a light spring on my main game gun that has surpassed that threshold already although not by much.

So you leave your LEM in V1 rather than taking a V1 and making it a V4 by use of the heavy TRS. Is that correct? Do the heavier TRS break as easy or are they prone to failure in the V2 LEM?

I ask because I'm interested in going from V1 to V4 on an upcoming weapon. My older P2000 V2 LEM was at 7,000 rounds with another 5,000 dry fires and no issue.

[LSP972]

I can't state that as a fact but I, on a basis of my anecdotal experience, believe it is true. In my early times I broke two heavy springs back to back within 8K of total trigger pulls, live and dry. I am yet to break a light spring on my main game gun that has surpassed that threshold already although not by much.

This is… disturbing. While I'm certainly not disputing your facts, gleaned from your pistols, I AM having a hard time seeing how that heavy, square-stock spring is more prone to failure than the much-thinner round stock spring.

When you say "anecdotal"… exactly what? Told to you by someone you trust? Read on a forum? Overheard in the third stall on the left in a public shitter at a match?

Not trying to be a weisenheimer here, but I need to wrap my head around this. Details, please.

.

[s0nspark]

Too short of grip for my taste, as I don't like doing the British sipping tea pinky thing when reloading.

So THAT"S what it's called - yeah, I hate that too.



Is the P30 still as good of a choice today as it was then? (General question for anyone to answer)

Who's still running one, why have you stuck with it, and would you still choose it today?

Who's moved on, and why?

Would I be best served by the DA/SA or jumping blind into an LEM?

If I had not been so enamored with the VP9 (and still am...) I would have gone with a LEM P30 when I chose my new carry platform.

IMO, the TDA P30 needs trigger work out of the box to pass muster. The TDA guns I've had, though, were all custom guns so that might be a bit unfair or biased to say.

[YVK]

So you leave your LEM in V1 rather than taking a V1 and making it a V4 by use of the heavy TRS. Is that correct? Do the heavier TRS break as easy or are they prone to failure in the V2 LEM?

I ask because I'm interested in going from V1 to V4 on an upcoming weapon. My older P2000 V2 LEM was at 7,000 rounds with another 5,000 dry fires and no issue.

My trigger setup is not defined by any variant. I use a light trigger return spring and 10 lbs mainspring for about 4 lbs trigger pull weight. It lights up all quality and most of subprime ammo without problems. I've done my share of shooting all possible spring combinations and have found that I shoot this setup the best. I do periodically put in heavy springs for training purposes only, to work on my trigger control.


This is… disturbing. While I'm certainly not disputing your facts, gleaned from your pistols, I AM having a hard time seeing how that heavy, square-stock spring is more prone to failure than the much-thinner round stock spring.

When you say "anecdotal"… exactly what? Told to you by someone you trust? Read on a forum? Overheard in the third stall on the left in a public shitter at a match?

Not trying to be a weisenheimer here, but I need to wrap my head around this. Details, please.

.

I called my own experience outlined above as anecdotal because two broken springs aren't enough to call it anything else. Although quite a few people reported breaking those springs on this site. I think the thinner spring is simply more flexible and hence more resistant to deformation stresses.

[LSP972]

I think the thinner spring is simply more flexible and hence more resistant to deformation stresses.

Got it. I was thinking exactly the opposite. One of us is right… but who?:D

I too have seen a few reports of the TRS breaking, here and on HKPro… but I thought they were all of the light variety. To my knowledge, those TRS springs come in three varieties:

1. Light, featuring small, round spring stock, black in color

2. Medium, featuring slightly larger diameter round spring stock, gray/natural metal in color

3. Heavy, featuring square spring stock, gray/natural metal in color

Again, I don't recall seeing any reports of the "heavy" TRS breaking. But then, I could have missed it, or simply mis-read it.

The reason this bugs me is because I put heavy TRS in both of my USPc 9mm pistols; carry and practice; entirely due to my belief that the light TRS was the one to worry about. Now, I see a plausible explanation saying exactly the opposite.

I think this is what has been known as being "On the horns of a dilemma"… :confused:

.

[JDB]

My experience matches YVKs. 2 P30s, and have broken two heavy TRS, both from dry fire. Haven't broken a light TRS yet, and have been trying.

Also, I'm using the same spring combo, 10# mainspring, light TRS, light FPBS. I've never had a failure to pop a primer, and I shoot this combo best overall. Granted, I've never tried any cheap Russian stuff.

[NCmtnman]

My experience matches YVKs. 2 P30s, and have broken two heavy TRS, both from dry fire. Haven't broken a light TRS yet, and have been trying.

Also, I'm using the same spring combo, 10# mainspring, light TRS, light FPBS. I've never had a failure to pop a primer, and I shoot this combo best overall. Granted, I've never tried any cheap Russian stuff.

So all "V1" except for the mainspring. Did the affect the feel of the trigger other than weight?

[JDB]

So all "V1" except for the mainspring. Did the affect the feel of the trigger other than weight?

That's incorrect. The #10 mainspring is lighter than the V1. Not sure what the v1 mainspring weight is. Its at least 12# though.

The #10 lightened up the DA and SA pull. Its made the DA bearable for extensive dry fire. Prior to that, my trigger finger was getting pretty sore and painful. To the point that I stopped dry firing for a month. Side note - That was kind of a revelation for me. To maintain proficiency with DA guns, I have to practise regularly, but with standard weight DA triggers, the trigger weight aggravated my joints to the point that I needed to stop. Anyway, that meant many factory DA triggers are not a good long term option for me. I don't have that problem with LEM.

Also, I put in the nickel plated sear spring. Couldn't tell any difference from that.

If only the LEM had a shorter reset, I'd be set. As it is, the long trigger reset means that in dry fire, the trigger generally is resetting out to DA, which isn't ideal.

[CCT125US]

As it is, the long trigger reset means that in dry fire, the trigger generally is resetting out to DA, which isn't ideal.

You can place a rubber band in the ejection port to hold the slide out of battery. Hammer won't fall, but prevents racking after each rep.

[StraitR]

So THAT"S what it's called - yeah, I hate that too.



If I had not been so enamored with the VP9 (and still am...) I would have gone with a LEM P30 when I chose my new carry platform.

IMO, the TDA P30 needs trigger work out of the box to pass muster. The TDA guns I've had, though, were all custom guns so that might be a bit unfair or biased to say.

THAT'S definitely what it's called. :p

FWIW, the V3 I was playing with in the shop the other day had a pretty nice trigger. 9.somethingish pounds, no stacking, easy to roll through, and not a ton of over-travel. Maybe all the hate I read for HK's DA pull and my buddies V3 had me convinced that they all suck, but I was impressed. It was a lot better than my buddies V3 (he was there and agreed), better than my 92A1 which stacks, but not as smooth as my Brig Tac which actually stacks a bit as well.

[noguns]

This thread is makes me want to give my p30sk another try.
So what are the consensus intervals for parts replacement on a v1?
Since browsing this forum , ive become proactive on spring replacement s on my glocks. I replace every spring every year regardless of round count......I know I'm paranoid.

[s0nspark]

FWIW, the V3 I was playing with in the shop the other day had a pretty nice trigger. 9.somethingish pounds, no stacking, easy to roll through, and not a ton of over-travel. Maybe all the hate I read for HK's DA pull and my buddies V3 had me convinced that they all suck, but I was impressed. It was a lot better than my buddies V3 (he was there and agreed), better than my 92A1 which stacks, but not as smooth as my Brig Tac which actually stacks a bit as well.

Fair enough - I've only had hands on a few samples and there does seem to be some variance from one gun to another. The DA didn't bother me too bad IIRC but wasn't as smooth as some I've shot. I was pickier about the SA.

However, it is probably clear: I'm... just not one to ask about the joys of TDA. LOL

The 2 years I spent learning TDA really just learned me that I am totally a medium weight, single trigger pull kind of guy... I'll shoot anything for fun but I find little sense in fighting myself when it comes to more serious pursuits.


--
d(-.-)b

[Mike C]

This thread is makes me want to give my p30sk another try.
So what are the consensus intervals for parts replacement on a v1?
Since browsing this forum , ive become proactive on spring replacement s on my glocks. I replace every spring every year regardless of round count......I know I'm paranoid.

I wouldn't call preventative maintenance paranoia. It is simply a solid insurance policy. One less thing to worry about.

[StraitR]

For those with a P2000/USPc...

HK USP9 COMPACT P2000 13RD 9MM MAGAZINE - $24.99 (http://www.cdnnsports.com/usp9-compact-p2000-13-f-r.html#.VtdJkMd6r0d)

[GJM]

For those with a P2000/USPc...

HK USP9 COMPACT P2000 13RD 9MM MAGAZINE - $24.99 (http://www.cdnnsports.com/usp9-compact-p2000-13-f-r.html#.VtdJkMd6r0d)

You shoot that new LEM yet?

[StraitR]

You shoot that new LEM yet?

Not really. Just enough to make corrections and verify POA/POI while swapping out rear sights when I bought it. Going to my club on Saturday afternoon, but thinking about jumping in with both feet in the AM for IDPA.

[GJM]

Not really. Just enough to make corrections and verify POA/POI while swapping out rear sights when I bought it. Going to my club on Saturday afternoon, but thinking about jumping in with both feet in the AM for IDPA.

YVK says the P30 is the penultimate gun for IDPA.

[StraitR]

YVK says the P30 is the penultimate gun for IDPA.

LOL. Here we go.

[YVK]

No doubt. When Germans yell "cover", it comes out as "koch".

Barely-B shooters like me with several local match wins with HK vs A shooters with CZs like you and no record to show for is just an icing on the cake.

[GJM]

No doubt. When Germans yell "cover", it comes out as "koch".

Barely-B shooters like me with several local match wins with HK vs A shooters with CZs like you and no record to show for is just an icing on the cake.

How come you don't answer my call, but can respond on line inside a minute?

Do you think the ED termination at HQ will delay class upgrades this cycle?

[YVK]

I can type and skype but not call and skype.

In my line of work ED stands for something I am not sure you'd like to be discussing publicly..

[StraitR]

I can type and skype but not call and skype.

In my line of work ED stands for something I am not sure you'd like to be discussing publicly..

Same here, so I LOLed.

Then again, it would be better than discussing Pincus or Serpa holsters.

[GJM]

I was referring to the departure of USPSA's executive director, but I can see you both confusing ED. I would think ED more a factor for the average IDPA shooter than the athletic, studly USPSA shooting cadre. :)

[YVK]

Please remind me: were there two or three members of your USPSA club who had some coronary issues within last months?

[StraitR]

HAHA. LEM trigger discussions never get old.

[YVK]

For those interested, I was able to buy two 4.1 kits from HKCS today. I didn't ask if kits were available, just told them parts numbers. Those are 207932 for compression spring, -33 for the catch and -34 for hammer. Apparently they are out of intermediate return springs that are standard with 4.1 but I am not sure that it is strictly necessary. Same goes for compression spring. HK # is 706-568-1906. CS rep Link is particularly knowledgeable in this regard. In addition, a dealer named Flagman has a couple of kits on hkpro.

[Mike C]

Why do I feel I have been lied to the last 3 phone calls to them?

Do they actually have the parts YVK?


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[YVK]

I don't think that all of them know themselves. Which is why I didn't refer to it as 4.1 kit and gave P/Ns instead. Takes the guess work out, they just need to type them in and see if in stock.
My understanding was that they did have them in stock. They charged my card 60 bucks apiece, gave me the order number and said 7-12 days.

[GOTURBACK]

I called yesterday and gave them the part numbers the guy told me that they did not have them available but that I could back order them and that it could be two days or two months before they get them? I ordered them from Flagman today they will be shipped out asap.

[Mike C]

Thanks YVK and Goturback. I think I'll PM John and grab a set until I can call and talk to Link Monday.


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[Sam]

I managed to snag an LEM kit which includes the 4.1 parts with the medium weight trigger return spring from TooSixy from HKPro. He's out however. Didn't know when I could get a 4.1 kit from anywhere else.

[StraitR]

So, why do I want a 4.1 kit?

[YVK]

No one knows. Those few who got one are wowing but no objective data though. For now I would consider it an ergonomic variant. My expectation is perhaps an increase in margin of errors but no difference if shooter is doing everything well as is.
From the expected arrival of mine and Rick Holm's lead time, I won't be able to run 4.1 on timer until after the Area 1 in May.

[ffhounddog]

I have two vp9's and miss carrying my P30. Had a friend ask me if I would trade one of them for a P30sk lem v1 and I am like I dunno. I have a P2000sk v2 in the safe that I carry with p2000 mags.

I have been trying to pry my P2000 lem from my mom for years.

I just like the feel of the Lem and how well I shoot it.

[GOTURBACK]

By all reports in P30 series pistols the V4.1CH (LEM) variant reduces initial trigger travel by approx. 33%, when combined with an internal over travel stop and reduced reset it should make for one hell of a trigger.

[breakingtime91]

By all reports in P30 series pistols the V4.1CH (LEM) variant reduces initial trigger travel by approx. 33%, when combined with an internal over travel stop and reduced reset it should make for one hell of a trigger.

whats the weight though ?

[GOTURBACK]

The V4.1CH when installed in a P30 using all the reccomended springs yields a trigger pull weight of 6.18 pounds according to HK specs.

[Sam]

StraitR, what sights are you going with?

[ffhounddog]

For a P30 why the wolff 12 pound spring and not the HK match usp compact spring?

[farscott]

This is… disturbing. While I'm certainly not disputing your facts, gleaned from your pistols, I AM having a hard time seeing how that heavy, square-stock spring is more prone to failure than the much-thinner round stock spring.

When you say "anecdotal"… exactly what? Told to you by someone you trust? Read on a forum? Overheard in the third stall on the left in a public shitter at a match?

Not trying to be a weisenheimer here, but I need to wrap my head around this. Details, please.

.

From an engineering standpoint, I can see three possible issues that would cause the heavier spring to fail first.

1) The heavy square spring has less space for compression, so coil stacking is more likely, especially if the heavier spring was engineered into an existing design with constraints. I would expect HK to have caught this, but mistakes get made. A related failure mode is the possibility of torsion instead of compression.
2) The square edges of the spring may lead to stress risers and places for corrosion to start. That combination is lethal to springs.
3) Exceeding the number of cycles that the spring is rated to complete. Compression and release cycles are what cause wear to springs. The heavier spring may have a smaller number of cycles for its rated life even though the spring constant is greater. Be sure to not confuse spring constant for rated number of cycles.

Springs usually do not fail unless exercised outside their design parameters.

[LSP972]

From an engineering standpoint, I can see three possible issues that would cause the heavier spring to fail first.

1) The heavy square spring has less space for compression, so coil stacking is more likely, especially if the heavier spring was engineered into an existing design with constraints. I would expect HK to have caught this, but mistakes get made. A related failure mode is the possibility of torsion instead of compression.
2) The square edges of the spring may lead to stress risers and places for corrosion to start. That combination is lethal to springs.
3) Exceeding the number of cycles that the spring is rated to complete. Compression and release cycles are what cause wear to springs. The heavier spring may have a smaller number of cycles for its rated life even though the spring constant is greater. Be sure to not confuse spring constant for rated number of cycles.

Springs usually do not fail unless exercised outside their design parameters.

Excellent explanation; thank you.

.

[texag]

By all reports in P30 series pistols the V4.1CH (LEM) variant reduces initial trigger travel by approx. 33%, when combined with an internal over travel stop and reduced reset it should make for one hell of a trigger.

I keep hearing conflicting reports on the changes to reset length, if any. I love the p30 v4 I have for accurate shooting, but I definitely struggle to be as accurate at speed with it compared to glocks. The wheels just start to fall off at a slower pace when compared to striker fired pistols, but like many here, I want the extra safety margin for AIWB.

The 4.1 conversion is cheap enough to try if others say it help performance. I love everything about the p30 except the reset, a cost effective fix to that (ie not sending to grayguns) would keep me from doing the switch to a beretta 92 compact or cz p07, which has been the path I'd been leaning towards.

[psalms144.1]

Tex, the 4.1 does not affect reset, only pretravel. The over travel and reset reductions are separate modifications, and, to my knowledge, none are offered by HK factory - they're all custom work.

[texag]

Thanks. I'll save my $$ then.

[StraitR]

StraitR, what sights are you going with?

Sorry Sam, I completely missed this question.

I use 10-8 rears in everything if possible. Fronts vary, but I have the factory NS on my P30. I have a 10-8 FO front on my VP9.

ETA a massively crappy cell phone pic, but it's what I have.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1514/25163058722_9d6280a033_c.jpg

[Sam]

I would really like to get a FO setup for mine but am a little lost on a maker that offers a rear with a ledge and it seems like 10-8 may be the ticket. Thanks!

[JohnK]

Sorry Sam, I completely missed this question.

I use 10-8 rears in everything if possible. Fronts vary, but I have the factory NS on my P30. I have a 10-8 FO front on my VP9.

ETA a massively crappy cell phone pic, but it's what I have.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1514/25163058722_9d6280a033_c.jpg

How are you doing with your P30, sir? I put another 196 rounds through mine today and I feel like I haven't made much progress in the 1,600 rds through it. I was seething today. I feel like I am taking tons of steps back with this thing.

[breakingtime91]

How are you doing with your P30, sir? I put another 196 rounds through mine today and I feel like I haven't made much progress in the 1,600 rds through it. I was seething today. I feel like I am taking tons of steps back with this thing.

What benchmarks are you using and how are you tracking your progress?

[StraitR]

How are you doing with your P30, sir? I put another 196 rounds through mine today and I feel like I haven't made much progress in the 1,600 rds through it. I was seething today. I feel like I am taking tons of steps back with this thing.

I'll admit, the LEM has been challenging. It's just SO different than what I've put the lion's share of my reps with for the last twenty years, which is 1911's and Glocks. I don't think that makes it bad, just different, and ultimately unfamiliar. At times, I've been quite discouraged, but I've only been at it for a month, have half the rounds through it you do and just over 1500 dry fire presses according to my log.

That all said, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. People have been, and are successful with an LEM, so the only thing holding me back is me.

ETA: I think the P30 as a AIWB platform is absolute perfection, for my purposes. Hammer + long trigger pull are exactly what I'm after. As far as the P30 itself, I couldn't be happier, I just need to adjust to the LEM and I think that will come through time and reps.

My wife is so freaking sick of hearing me dry fire, I sleep with one eye open.

[JohnK]

What benchmarks are you using and how are you tracking your progress?

Usually every session, I do a dot torture. 2 sessions ago, I did 49/50 @ 3yds. I tried doing dot Torture at 3 yds again to clean it so I can move back. I was dropping shots and ended up with 41/50. It pissed me off royally.

I've done FAST on the timer and I am having a hell of a time out of the holster with that first shot making it onto the 3x5. All shots keep pushing left. What's worse is I am not calling the missed shots as I break the trigger. So then I take the timer out of the equation and work on the drill taking my time. And even during slow fire I am having a hell of a time tightening up the groups... much less at 7 yds.

I do dry fire practice several times per week and have probably put in 2x the amount of reps comparatively to live rounds. I adjusted grip and trigger finger at the last portion today to see if that would help. It seems to have helped a bit with respect to accuracy.

I know messing with other guns while trying to learn a specific one kills progress. But I haven't seen much if any progress in the last few sessions. I pick up my 1911 to do a FAST and I am drawing consistently faster, not dropping shots... even doing a double take when I put the rounds through the same hole in the T box three times, and then getting consistent shots in the circle and no misses. Times are faster too. And that's with 3 strings, after trying all morning with the LEM.

I've been successful before with the LEM, and it has rewarded me. But part of me wonders if I am almost too much inside of my head that I am dramatically over-thinking things. Like Craig said, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel because others have been successful, along with it being perfect AIWB gun... but the struggle is real.

ETA: I am headed back to the range tomorrow because my friend wants to mess with his hk45c and Usp9 tactical... and he wants to run on the timer so I will see what he has. But I am going to get back out there and try to do more accuracy stuff without the timer for me. I need to get the accuracy and fundamentals down with this trigger before going on the clock.

[StraitR]

but the struggle is real.

ETA: I am headed back to the range tomorrow...

Truth.

John, if you're having any sort of grip/trigger finger location issues, try taking all the grip panels with you and play with different combination. To me, smalls all around is the clear winner in feel, but mediums all around is where I see my best performance. I figured this out last year on my VP9, and immediately verified the same on the P30.

[breakingtime91]

The LEM can be a frustrating trigger. Right now I am completely struggling with my HD sights..

[Mitch]

The LEM can be a frustrating trigger. Right now I am completely struggling with my HD sights..

That is the one thing I don't like about the P2000, as far as sights go the pickings are slim. I have meprolights on mine and I struggle with glare off them. I'm thinking about trying HDs, but I'd really love some Heinies like EVERY OTHER HK SINCE THE USP.


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[breakingtime91]

That is the one thing I don't like about the P2000, as far as sights go the pickings are slim. I have meprolights on mine and I struggle with glare off them. I'm thinking about trying HDs, but I'd really love some Heinies like EVERY OTHER HK SINCE THE USP.


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Yup. I lol the HDs; just having a rough time figuring out to drive the dot or tip of the blade..