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rob_s
02-20-2016, 06:05 AM
From listening to the Practical Pistol Show I gather that the new USPSA president is pushing this. Ben seems opposed, but Matt Hopkins (who, unlike Ben, has actually tried it) seems in favor. Then yesterday I see 3 Gun Nation posting about the concept of the PCC.

Anyone have any opinions on this? I personally think it's great, and I'd love to be able to shoot. Y local USPSA matches with a PCC from time to time. I also think it's a good way to get more people involved, since so many folks seem to think that matters. But I think a lot of guys who wouldn't shoot a match with a pistol would jump in with a PCC, and with so many new options out on the market I think a lot of guys have them but don't have any real outlet to shoot them.

GJM
02-20-2016, 08:22 AM
I am interested in seeing how this develops. Not so much to shoot carbine instead of pistol, but to shoot it in addition to pistol. I would like to be able to shoot a regular USPSA match with the handgun, and then be able to quickly repeat the stages with the carbine, for long gun proficiency.

Talionis
02-20-2016, 10:09 AM
I'm more interested in PCC than in any other division besides production. I am building a 9mm AR to hold me over until I can start running an MP5. I will use it as a proving ground to test and drive my skill with a carbine, which is an area I have neglected.

I am really interested to compare my performance with a PCC to my pistol performance. I have started dryfire practice with my old carbine in anticipation. I have been surprised to see that there is virtually no difference in times between pistol and rifle in any of the drills I've set up, including those with tight hallway movement, moving through doors, etc. I think it is fair to say that I am significantly more experienced with a pistol, but that there is a great deal of carryover in things like aggressive movement, driving to the target, vision speed, etc.

A few things about PCC that make me excited:

Minor Scoring, so I'll actually have to aim.
Loading magazines to full capacity.
The ability to shoot in volume using exactly the same ammo as I load for pistol.
The chance to run around shooting stuff with a sbr'd and suppressed MP5K and feel like every action movie hero from the 90's.
6040

LittleLebowski
02-20-2016, 10:41 AM
The very oddness of it makes it something I like. I hope this takes off.

SLG
02-20-2016, 11:48 AM
PCC in USPSA. Fashionably late isn't usually measured in decades.

No one uses a pistol caliber carbine by choice today for anything. Is it an ok sub caliber trainer? Sure, but only for the up close stuff.

Had they offered this division back when guys actually carried MP-5's and such, I would think it would have been better timing, at least from the P part of USPSA. Maybe not from the availability/AWB standpoint.

Either way, I think it will be fun to shoot, and I might have an MP-5/10 laying around that I could use:-)

Looks like minor scoring, so maybe I'll have to pull an MP-5 out instead.

Anyone know about optics?

rob_s
02-20-2016, 12:18 PM
I don't think it's meant to be relevant re:ninja shit. I don't think USPSA on the whole is meant to be relevant re:ninja shit.

It's fun. And while the subgun may not have a place in current ninja doctrine, there are a bunch of companies making new or retro versions in the last couple of years. So it's fun to be able to go out and shoot them.

Mr_White
02-20-2016, 02:52 PM
Sub2000!

littlejerry
02-20-2016, 03:08 PM
PCC in USPSA. Fashionably late isn't usually measured in decades.

No one uses a pistol caliber carbine by choice today for anything. Is it an ok sub caliber trainer? Sure, but only for the up close stuff.

Had they offered this division back when guys actually carried MP-5's and such, I would think it would have been better timing, at least from the P part of USPSA. Maybe not from the availability/AWB standpoint.

Either way, I think it will be fun to shoot, and I might have an MP-5/10 laying around that I could use:-)

Looks like minor scoring, so maybe I'll have to pull an MP-5 out instead.

Anyone know about optics?
I think the pistol Cal limit has more to do with range limitations. Lots of ranges have rules(legit or not) which prohibit the use of rifle calibers. A PCC can run on any current stage without regard to steel target or backstop design.

One of the local clubs has been allowing PCC for the past 6-12 months. Pretty popular. One negative is when a squad has 3-4 shooters shooting 2 guns it can really slow things down.

I think this begs for a decent Glock mag fed carbine. Especially with inexpensive Magpul extended mags available...

Talionis
02-20-2016, 03:15 PM
Sub2000!

Lets operate! You deploy your sub2k from the skateboard pack of your choice, I'll deploy the MP5K from a suitcase.

Talionis
02-20-2016, 03:23 PM
I think the pistol Cal limit has more to do with range limitations. Lots of ranges have rules(legit or not) which prohibit the use of rifle calibers. A PCC can run on any current stage without regard to steel target or backstop design.

One of the local clubs has been allowing PCC for the past 6-12 months. Pretty popular. One negative is when a squad has 3-4 shooters shooting 2 guns it can really slow things down.

I think this begs for a decent Glock mag fed carbine. Especially with inexpensive Magpul extended mags available...

Pretty much this. PCC's can be run on USPSA stages as is, no changes needed. Additionally, they are a very popular sales item right now, and I suspect that trend will continue for a while. I'm not a fan of multiple entries at a match just from a flow perspective, but that has always been an MD decision.

Regarding the Glock mag carbine, it is definitely a great choice if you already shoot Glocks, though realistically you won't have much use for the standard capacity Glock mags you would normally use. The JP GMR-13 is the ready to race option right now, and I believe can be had in either Glock mag or Colt SMG mag (modified UZI). My 9mm AR is set up for Colt mags since they are reliable, had a reliable last round bolt hold open, and are inexpensive (20 a pop).

SLG
02-20-2016, 03:29 PM
Lets operate! You deploy your sub2k from the skateboard pack of your choice, I'll deploy the MP5K from a suitcase.

S...can I shoot my briefcase mp-5k?

Tamara
02-20-2016, 03:43 PM
my briefcase mp-5k?

Hating you just a little bit right now. :D

Talionis
02-20-2016, 03:43 PM
S...can I shoot my briefcase mp-5k?

Yesssssss

SLG
02-20-2016, 03:46 PM
Yesssssss

Cool. I imagine the RO's would have a conniption though.:-)

Chuck Haggard
02-20-2016, 03:47 PM
I've done this in a local match a few times just to get a feel for how much more capable a carbine might be vs a pistol. The answer is "very" if things were anything but 7 and in.


I could shoot my sub2000 tomorrow, but if this became a thing I'd might even build a 9mm AR for the fun of it.

Talionis
02-20-2016, 04:10 PM
Cool. I imagine the RO's would have a conniption though.:-)

I would love to see the Load & Make Ready routine for that baby.

Mr_White
02-20-2016, 05:08 PM
I've done this in a local match a few times just to get a feel for how much more capable a carbine might be vs a pistol. The answer is "very" if things were anything but 7 and in.


I could shoot my sub2000 tomorrow, but if this became a thing I'd might even build a 9mm AR for the fun of it.

9mm AR would be sooooooo much better than Sub2000.

GJM
02-20-2016, 05:25 PM
I'm more interested in PCC than in any other division besides production. I am building a 9mm AR to hold me over until I can start running an MP5. I will use it as a proving ground to test and drive my skill with a carbine, which is an area I have neglected.

I am really interested to compare my performance with a PCC to my pistol performance. I have started dryfire practice with my old carbine in anticipation. I have been surprised to see that there is virtually no difference in times between pistol and rifle in any of the drills I've set up, including those with tight hallway movement, moving through doors, etc. I think it is fair to say that I am significantly more experienced with a pistol, but that there is a great deal of carryover in things like aggressive movement, driving to the target, vision speed, etc.

A few things about PCC that make me excited:

Minor Scoring, so I'll actually have to aim.
Loading magazines to full capacity.
The ability to shoot in volume using exactly the same ammo as I load for pistol.
The chance to run around shooting stuff with a sbr'd and suppressed MP5K and feel like every action movie hero from the 90's.
6040

Is that MP5 part of your HK sponsorship gig? If so, I would be willing to shoot a VP9. :)


PCC in USPSA. Fashionably late isn't usually measured in decades.

No one uses a pistol caliber carbine by choice today for anything. Is it an ok sub caliber trainer? Sure, but only for the up close stuff.

Had they offered this division back when guys actually carried MP-5's and such, I would think it would have been better timing, at least from the P part of USPSA. Maybe not from the availability/AWB standpoint.

Either way, I think it will be fun to shoot, and I might have an MP-5/10 laying around that I could use:-)

Looks like minor scoring, so maybe I'll have to pull an MP-5 out instead.

Anyone know about optics?

I don't think the pistol caliber carbine is a suggestion that it is a good caliber choice. Rather, the pistol caliber can be shot on pistol stages without tearing up steel.

I understand the folks at Wilson Combat have something that should be out in the next few weeks, relevant to this.

Chuck Haggard
02-20-2016, 05:29 PM
9mm AR would be sooooooo much better than Sub2000.

Yeah, but my sub has been a shockingly decent gun.

WAY more reliable than the Colt SMGs my team had.

El Cid
02-20-2016, 05:53 PM
I might have an MP-5/10 laying around that I could use:-)


You may have a real one or a clone? If a real one I'll be insanely jealous!

GJM
02-20-2016, 05:59 PM
Don't bet SLG.

MD7305
02-20-2016, 06:05 PM
I wanna see a video of SLG running a stage with the MP5K brief case gun! I've seen SLG shoot, he'd school everybody.

GJM
02-20-2016, 06:18 PM
I wanna see a video of SLG running a stage with the MP5K brief case gun! I've seen SLG shoot, he'd school everybody.

I think you are sucking up to him, trying to get trigger time on that K.

SLG
02-20-2016, 06:22 PM
I wanna see a video of SLG running a stage with the MP5K brief case gun! I've seen SLG shoot, he'd school everybody.

I appreciate the thought, but I'm afraid that I'd be winning in a division of one:-)

OTOH, it might be fun to set something up...

SLG
02-20-2016, 06:25 PM
I think you are sucking up to him, trying to get trigger time on that K.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the 10 yet, given your interest in that gun. I finally stopped carrying the thing, but I do love them. That's the one video of LAV's I've seen that he got it wrong. Not only have they worked extremely well, but they are still in service, and are not going to go away for some time. The terminal ballistics have been pretty awesome as well. Quite a package, just not as ergonomic as they could be. And of course, HK sucks since they decided to stop supporting them. :-(

Talionis
02-20-2016, 06:26 PM
Is that MP5 part of your HK sponsorship gig? If so, I would be willing to shoot a VP9. :)


I can't comment on that directly, I can only say that HK does have some cool stuff in the works. Some of which you might actually be able to own before too long.

GJM
02-20-2016, 06:27 PM
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the 10 yet, given your interest in that gun. I finally stopped carrying the thing, but I do love them. That's the one video of LAV's I've seen that he got it wrong. Not only have they worked extremely well, but they are still in service, and are not going to go away for some time. The terminal ballistics have been pretty awesome as well. Quite a package, just not as ergonomic as they could be. And of course, HK sucks since they decided to stop supporting them. :-(

I thought the 10 was just your and my little secret. Now everyone is going to be trying to shoot it.

GJM
02-20-2016, 06:28 PM
I can't comment on that directly, I can only say that HK does have some cool stuff in the works. Some of which you might actually be able to own before too long.


Just bring all your toys to the UT match!

GJM
02-20-2016, 08:21 PM
Talionis, and others, what is the skinny on the JP 9?

SeriousStudent
02-20-2016, 10:29 PM
I've done this in a local match a few times just to get a feel for how much more capable a carbine might be vs a pistol. The answer is "very" if things were anything but 7 and in.


I could shoot my sub2000 tomorrow, but if this became a thing I'd might even build a 9mm AR for the fun of it.

I've got a 9mm AR that takes Glock 18 mags. You're welcome to play with it the next time you visit.

JAD
02-20-2016, 10:30 PM
Sub2000!

Calico, bitches!http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/f1940f7a6fd390fb65ccefd9b1fe532f.jpg

Talionis
02-21-2016, 01:02 AM
Talionis, and others, what is the skinny on the JP 9?

Good to go. Probably the best out of the box competitive solution at the moment.

Edwin
02-21-2016, 01:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVN1KOoRcVE&feature=youtu.be

Looks fun to me.

GuanoLoco
02-21-2016, 08:00 AM
PCC is way cool. I think is has potential as a HD weapon, particularly SBR'd, better yet suppressed. I see literally no reason why it wouldn't work just fine on USPSA handgun stages.

The idea of shooting an unsuppressed AR in the house, wife, dog, myself (maybe I would have time to get amplified hearing protection on) - shudder.

rob_s
02-21-2016, 08:06 AM
I've seen it mentioned a few times about letting people re-run the stage with a PCC all in the same squad rotation. I would be strongly against this. You either run the PCC instead of the pistol, or the MD leaves the match set up at the end and the PCC guys run through as an after-match (provided they also stay to do all the tear down, at clubs where the tear-down is a team effort).

I think that anything that PCC does that causes added stress or time problems to the match will result in its un-doing and bolster resistance from those that don't want to see it happen.

I might entertain the idea that a shooter could pay twice, and take up two slots, if they wanted to shoot both on the same squad rotation, but then you bring up problems of one guy taking two slots and someone else potentially not being able to shoot at all.

One of the reason I'm interested in this concept is that I'm getting more and more wrist and forearm pain from shooting handguns. It's not the sole reason I've not shot a match in awhile, but it's a strong one. My guess is there's more than a few people in similar situations.

Anyone know if there are provisional rules or proposed rules out there? Personally I'd like them to take an outlaw approach for the time being and see where the equipment race takes us. My guess is that an SBR, with a brake, and a c-more style optic will be the way to go, and lowers that take straight mags, not angled pistol mags, will be preferred due to reloading in the angle being a bit of a pain.

What mags to the JPs take?

I'd likely just use my suppressed SBR with the eoturd that's on it, since it's already all set up and runs.

Exurbankevin
02-21-2016, 09:40 AM
I think the pistol Cal limit has more to do with range limitations. Lots of ranges have rules(legit or not) which prohibit the use of rifle calibers. A PCC can run on any current stage without regard to steel target or backstop design.


There's two different pistol caliber carbine / Tac Shotgun matches held in Phoenix each month, and the reason they're so popular is they give people the feel of running 3 Gun without the need for 200 yard shots, expensive rifle targets and all the folderol that comes with a true 3 Gun match. The stages are set up so that you can them either with a PCC pinging steel and punching paper or with a shotgun using slugs on the paper targets.

And they're fun. Because you're only shooting one gun at a time, the stage reset goes quickly and you can run through the match in an evening vs the 1/2 day required for a 3 Gun match. Cost to the shooters is low because you're shooting 9mm or 12ga bird for the most part (even .22 carbines are allowed), and the load work on the match directors is also low because the courses of fire are in a pistol bay versus a 300 yard rifle range.

Talionis
02-21-2016, 10:01 AM
I've seen it mentioned a few times about letting people re-run the stage with a PCC all in the same squad rotation. I would be strongly against this. You either run the PCC instead of the pistol, or the MD leaves the match set up at the end and the PCC guys run through as an after-match (provided they also stay to do all the tear down, at clubs where the tear-down is a team effort).

I think that anything that PCC does that causes added stress or time problems to the match will result in its un-doing and bolster resistance from those that don't want to see it happen.

I might entertain the idea that a shooter could pay twice, and take up two slots, if they wanted to shoot both on the same squad rotation, but then you bring up problems of one guy taking two slots and someone else potentially not being able to shoot at all.

One of the reason I'm interested in this concept is that I'm getting more and more wrist and forearm pain from shooting handguns. It's not the sole reason I've not shot a match in awhile, but it's a strong one. My guess is there's more than a few people in similar situations.

Anyone know if there are provisional rules or proposed rules out there? Personally I'd like them to take an outlaw approach for the time being and see where the equipment race takes us. My guess is that an SBR, with a brake, and a c-more style optic will be the way to go, and lowers that take straight mags, not angled pistol mags, will be preferred due to reloading in the angle being a bit of a pain.

What mags to the JPs take?

I'd likely just use my suppressed SBR with the eoturd that's on it, since it's already all set up and runs.

I agree with this. There is pushback from the "Keep yer damn rifles out of my pistol match!" crowd, mostly with the justification that adding PCC will require too much change from the way things are. I am against changing things for pistol shooters to make PCC work but I think it can be incorporated without doing so.

AFAIK, the GMR-13 is designed for Glock mags only, though the angle doesn't seem as steep as some of the other Glock mag lowers. The GMR-12 was designed for Colt SMG mags.

Regarding rulesets: Expect a provisional division appendix to be released next month. I can say from things the Prez and members of the BoD have said, expect these guidelines initially:
Run what ya brung.

That will translate into no barrel length restrictions, no magazine length or capacity restrictions, no optics restrictions, suppressors are fine, just make sure your RO can keep up or you'll be annoying everyone with reshoots. Scoring will be minor only, and require 9mm, .40, 10mm, or .45. Caliber limitation is due to concerns for steel at pistol ranges. The idea is that if it catches on and people want to separate things out, they can split into something like an Open PCC and Limited PCC down the road.

YVK
02-21-2016, 10:47 AM
I am uncertain about PCC's viability as a standalone division. I am seeing how slow the carry optics has been in making the inroads despite seemingly vocal support before its introduction and I can't help but draw analogies. I personally would be more interested in a 2-gun format, remove the stupid shotgun and use the USPSA stage setup.

rob_s
02-21-2016, 11:55 AM
I am uncertain about PCC's viability as a standalone division. I am seeing how slow the carry optics has been in making the inroads despite seemingly vocal support before its introduction and I can't help but draw analogies. I personally would be more interested in a 2-gun format, remove the stupid shotgun and use the USPSA stage setup.

That's because (a) carry optics was a stupid idea set to placate a very vocal, very minor, few and (b) took a stupid idea and imp,emerged it badly, with silky rules and rule changes.

The difference for PCC is, to me, (a) way more people already have or are considering a sub gun than have a handgun with a slide-mounted optic and (b) it's being pushed by the new pres instead of implemented by the old one.

nwhpfan
02-21-2016, 01:16 PM
We won't know until we try. If people want to shoot it they can, if not they don't. Carry Optics has a decent following in my area. Maybe 7-8 guys. It doesn't matter to me what other people shoot. It has absolutely zero effect on me in Production; same with the guys shooting Open or Limited. It doesn't slow anyone down, it doesn't cost any money, it means zero. We follow open shooters around with gun bags, we'll follow PCC shooters with their hard case; whatever. I look forward to it - at least so I can buy a PCC.

taadski
02-21-2016, 01:41 PM
I am uncertain about PCC's viability as a standalone division. I am seeing how slow the carry optics has been in making the inroads despite seemingly vocal support before its introduction and I can't help but draw analogies. I personally would be more interested in a 2-gun format, remove the stupid shotgun and use the USPSA stage setup.

Y,

I think the neatest part of the PCC idea is that it plugs directly into the USPSA pistol type stages so seamlessly, without any of the extra onerous details involved in running typical 2 gun/3 gun stages. Mind you this is coming from someone who who was frustrated spending 5 hours yesterday shooting an outlaw 2 gun match (There was a good bit of down time). But the simplicity and ease of implementation is what makes it so attractive to me. Whether or not it takes off is another matter, but I'm eager to shoot it some. I'll be doing it in conjunction to shooting pistol, though, not standalone.



t

John Hearne
02-21-2016, 06:18 PM
I've run my 9mm AR in local IDPA and USPSA matches without any issues. We've never had to change the COF to accommodate the AR. I just shoot it using the exact same instructions as the pistol. If it says support hand only, I shoot it with just my support hand - where else will you practice one handed rifle shooting?

ST911
02-21-2016, 07:07 PM
I see PCC division as an opportunity to work with another tool and transferable skills. Not every match, but once in awhile. Should be fun.

I'm not looking forward to another variable that will slow down matches at the more inefficient clubs.

GJM
02-21-2016, 07:34 PM
We won't know until we try. If people want to shoot it they can, if not they don't. Carry Optics has a decent following in my area. Maybe 7-8 guys. It doesn't matter to me what other people shoot. It has absolutely zero effect on me in Production; same with the guys shooting Open or Limited. It doesn't slow anyone down, it doesn't cost any money, it means zero. We follow open shooters around with gun bags, we'll follow PCC shooters with their hard case; whatever. I look forward to it - at least so I can buy a PCC.

I am seeing a few more carry optics shooters each month. Not the Suarez inspired Timmie types, but rather more mature shooters than don't have eyes for iron sights, but don't want open guns. I could see shooting carry optics in the future, based on technology improvements, where I would want to carry a optic, or my eyes.

PPGMD
02-21-2016, 08:55 PM
PCC in USPSA. Fashionably late isn't usually measured in decades.

No one uses a pistol caliber carbine by choice today for anything. Is it an ok sub caliber trainer? Sure, but only for the up close stuff.

Had they offered this division back when guys actually carried MP-5's and such, I would think it would have been better timing, at least from the P part of USPSA. Maybe not from the availability/AWB standpoint.

Either way, I think it will be fun to shoot, and I might have an MP-5/10 laying around that I could use:-)

Looks like minor scoring, so maybe I'll have to pull an MP-5 out instead.

Anyone know about optics?

Optics are allowed. Basically anything goes, they are making this an open division at first to see where it goes.

Honestly I would look at it as "But LEOs don't use PCC and subguns anymore" and more as you now have an additional venue to shoot a rifle.

Around here USPSA matches are much more common that 3gun or action rifle matches. So if you have a PCC setup like your duty rifle (which is pretty easy to do) you can shoot a rifle that works very similarly to your duty rifle.

Personally I am much more excited about PCC that I ever was about Carry Optics.

Mr_White
02-22-2016, 11:44 AM
Yeah, but my sub has been a shockingly decent gun.

WAY more reliable than the Colt SMGs my team had.

Interesting. Mine has been ok too, but I don't know a thing about Colt SMGs.

Chuck Haggard
02-22-2016, 01:33 PM
Interesting. Mine has been ok too, but I don't know a thing about Colt SMGs.

Three of our SMGs would regularly choke on FMJ ammo.

nalesq
02-22-2016, 02:01 PM
Three of our SMGs would regularly choke on FMJ ammo.

I have noticed in my collection of Colt SMG mags that there are two visibly different followers Metalform apparently makes for its Colt SMG mags. One causes feeding problems, the other does not.

Jeep
02-22-2016, 02:09 PM
Three of our SMGs would regularly choke on FMJ ammo.


Beretta CX 4 carbines are very reliable also. Fairly well made except for the trigger.

SLG
02-22-2016, 03:32 PM
I had access to and some responsibility for about 100 Colt SMG's at one point. They all ran flawlessly, year in and year out, without any babying being done.

Having said that, it has always been my understanding that the system is not super reliable, at least in part due to the magazine. Just can't say I've ever seen it be an issue.

Jeep
02-22-2016, 05:38 PM
I had access to and some responsibility for about 100 Colt SMG's at one point. They all ran flawlessly, year in and year out, without any babying being done.

Having said that, it has always been my understanding that the system is not super reliable, at least in part due to the magazine. Just can't say I've ever seen it be an issue.

Did you keep them well lubed?

GJM
02-22-2016, 05:49 PM
Did you keep them well lubed?

Hopefully not. My Colt 9mm AR was running fine ..... untill I got the bright to lube it like a DI AR. Stoppages galore, wiped the lube off, and function restored.

PPGMD
02-22-2016, 05:51 PM
Well I am trying to sign up for the Florida State Steel Challenge in PCC.

SLG
02-22-2016, 06:07 PM
Did you keep them well lubed?

I would have to say no. I rarely keep anything well lubed. Well, not most things anyway:-)

The Colt's were not guns that I was responsible for maintaining, per se, so they were lubed however the previous cleaner thought appropriate. Seemed to work out just fine, though we did only shoot ball though them. Stout ball. When I tried JHP's, they ran fine as well, though I never shot more than a few hundred total.

Tamara
02-22-2016, 07:02 PM
Interesting. Mine has been ok too, but I don't know a thing about Colt SMGs.

Our rental MP5s at CCA were hangar queens while the Uzi and 635 chugged away. I realize that part of this is that the MP5s got rented more because Rainbow Six, and part is the statistics of small numbers, but...

(Incidentally, this was during the dark ages of HK Customer Service and in order to get the HKs functional again, our 'smith wound up doing a little Bridgeport surgery to get them to use AR extractors. If HK CS hadn't stepped up its game shortly after that, there could have been a lucrative sideline in modifying range rental guns there.)

JR1572
02-22-2016, 07:42 PM
I had a 9mm upper and block I would use on my RR Colt. It worked fine and was fun, but I rather shoot 5.56.

JR1572

mmc45414
02-22-2016, 08:08 PM
Beretta CX 4 carbines are very reliable also. Fairly well made except for the trigger.
I liked mine but it would not run with Mecgar 96 mags. That was disappointing so I broke down and went with a 9mm AR and have been glad I did.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk

rob_s
02-23-2016, 05:31 AM
For a time, we had about 3-4 guys shooting the CX4 (probably around when it first came out) in the two-gun matches I ran. We were limited to ~150 yards max, and mostly shot <25 and a couple of those guys did quite well.

I imagine, like many things, almost anything can be made to work for this. I'm hopeful that it takes off and am interested to see how the equipment race sorts itself out.

ST911
02-23-2016, 09:32 AM
I imagine, like many things, almost anything can be made to work for this. I'm hopeful that it takes off and am interested to see how the equipment race sorts itself out.

I'm curious to see what new refinements come to existing PCCs.

Jeep
02-23-2016, 12:24 PM
I liked mine but it would not run with Mecgar 96 mags. That was disappointing so I broke down and went with a 9mm AR and have been glad I did.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk

I should have limited my comment to the 9mm variety and then to the ones taking 92 series mags. The ones I have seen and shot haven't had a problem with any of the Beretta, new Check Mate or Mecgar mags.

Jeep
02-23-2016, 12:25 PM
Hopefully not. My Colt 9mm AR was running fine ..... untill I got the bright to lube it like a DI AR. Stoppages galore, wiped the lube off, and function restored.

That is a very interesting data point. I wonder what the physical explanation for that is?

mmc45414
02-23-2016, 01:02 PM
I should have limited my comment to the 9mm variety and then to the ones taking 92 series mags.

Actually 9mm has become so prevalent it is perfectly reasonable to assume that... [emoji4]

Part of my dismay was that the mags were only 11 rounds in 40, the Mecgars were 15, but that combined with the trigger tipped me over to a 9mm AR. Another barrier at the time was that my state had a goofy rule against 30+ round mags, and all the good 9mm AR mags were 32. The law has changed and Brownells is selling a very nice mag for $28.

At one point we recently launched a 124 +P GDHP across the chronograph at 1525fps, not exactly minor caliber [emoji15]


Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk

littlejerry
02-23-2016, 09:19 PM
I'm curious to see what new refinements come to existing PCCs.

I'm hoping for a quality off-the-shelf solution that takes Glock mags. Either AR based or something that can take AR sights/grips/rails/stocks etc would be ideal.

The MPX is cool except it costs nearly as much as an MKE MP5 and the mags sell for $70 each...

bofe954
02-23-2016, 09:40 PM
I'm hoping for a quality off-the-shelf solution that takes Glock mags. Either AR based or something that can take AR sights/grips/rails/stocks etc would be ideal.

The MPX is cool except it costs nearly as much as an MKE MP5 and the mags sell for $70 each...

Might be off the shelf somewhere...

http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.13_GMR-13.php

Jeep
02-24-2016, 11:42 AM
At one point we recently launched a 124 +P GDHP across the chronograph at 1525fps, not exactly minor caliber [emoji15]


That is smoking--picking up around 300 fps. I wonder whether the bullet would open so fast that it would essentially blow up and not penetrate at that speed?

Peally
02-24-2016, 11:45 AM
Time to break out the UMP45, it's on like Donkey Kong.

6117

Lomshek
02-24-2016, 10:00 PM
I'm hoping for a quality off-the-shelf solution that takes Glock mags.

I always thought a 9mm rifle that was fed through the pistol grip like a handgun, used a fully cocked striker fired direct blow back bolt, AR receiver extension & handguard and allowed one to swap grip modules like the Keltec Sub 2000 (only much better in execution) would be a handy way to go for the PCC. I bet you could even design it to have an AR style safety lever.

Shorter OAL than a magwell fed AR style design, AR butt stocks, AR handguard & sights/rail, you could even make the grip module accept different front and back straps.

mmc45414
02-24-2016, 10:09 PM
That is smoking--picking up around 300 fps. I wonder whether the bullet would open so fast that it would essentially blow up and not penetrate at that speed?
Probably. If I keep some ammo for mine for serious use probably would avoid +P.

It is like four G19 barrels in sequence [emoji3]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

GJM
02-24-2016, 10:15 PM
That is a very interesting data point. I wonder what the physical explanation for that is?

Sample of one, and just spit balling, but maybe the lube interfered with the blowback function.

SLG
02-24-2016, 10:23 PM
Anyone ever try the 9mm's from Definitive Arms?
https://www.coppercustom.com/shop/rifles/definitive-arms-akx-9s-side-folder/

DA makes very high quality AK builds, and though this 9 is not nearly as proven, it looks promising. Just the kind of thing a USPSA competitor would like to be in front of. :-)

GJM
02-25-2016, 07:48 AM
Are the Brownell's 32 round magazines as good as the Colt 32 round magazines?


http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazine-parts/magazine-kits/9mm-ar-15-32-round-magazine-3-pack-loader-prod80100.aspx


Sent from my iPad

mmc45414
02-25-2016, 08:42 AM
Are the Brownell's 32 round magazines as good as the Colt 32 round magazines?


http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazine-parts/magazine-kits/9mm-ar-15-32-round-magazine-3-pack-loader-prod80100.aspx


Sent from my iPad
I have never owned any of the Colt mags but would speculate they could be better than the Colt. They have that nice slick coating on them. I have two and plan to accumulate more.

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rob_s
02-25-2016, 09:28 AM
As I recall, C-rap Products somehow got themselves involved in the Colt OEM mag business for 9mm, and I believe they may have also been the supplier for the Brownells 556 mags at one time. They have since changed their name, or sold, or whatever other shell game they've been playing, but it's still the same garbage product. *IF* the current product 9mm OEM mags are coming from C-Products, and the Brownells version are not, I'd be buying the Brownells.

I only have factory Colt 9mm AR mags, pre-C-rap-Products, and all mine work great both in the original Colt I had and the Anvil Arms suppressed SBR I have now.

mmc45414
02-25-2016, 09:40 AM
*IF* the current product 9mm OEM mags are coming from C-Products, and the Brownells version are not, I'd be buying the Brownells.

I only have factory Colt 9mm AR mags, pre-C-rap-Products, and all mine work great both in the original Colt I had and the Anvil Arms suppressed SBR I have now.

I had some of the C-prod mags and the Brownells looks like it comes from a different planet.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Chris Rhines
02-25-2016, 09:44 AM
I'm mildly opposed to PCC division. Not so much that I'm gonna pitch a fit or quit shooting USPSA or anything, but I don't think it's a good use of the organization's time and money.

joshs
02-25-2016, 09:51 AM
I'm mildly opposed to PCC division. Not so much that I'm gonna pitch a fit or quit shooting USPSA or anything, but I don't think it's a good use of the organization's time and money.

As an MD who runs a match on a very tight schedule, I really hope this doesn't become more than an optional division. Our match barely runs on time as it is, I would have to design shorter stages in order to make up for the extra time in administering a PCC division.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 09:55 AM
I'm curious as to how people think it will negatively impact the game. Is there a specific set of concerns or is it just not liking change or the unknown? I'm confused as to how it adds any time, administratively or otherwise. Seems to me you just add a checkbox on the scoresheet under "division" and move on.

Peally
02-25-2016, 09:59 AM
IT'LL DILUTE THE SPORT

YOU CAN'T SHOOT THEM ONE HANDED

THE OPEN SHOOTERS WON'T BE THE FASTEST ANYMORE

Any other stupid arguments I missed?

Chris Rhines
02-25-2016, 10:03 AM
I'm curious as to how people think it will negatively impact the game. Is there a specific set of concerns or is it just not liking change or the unknown? I'm confused as to how it adds any time, administratively or otherwise. Seems to me you just add a checkbox on the scoresheet under "division" and move on.
I haven't MD'd in a long time, so I'll defer to Josh on the logistical issues.

My concerns are:
- I don't think that PCC division will be very popular, and I think that it will bring in few or no new shooters.
- PCC division will dilute an already shrinking pool of match sponsorship/prize money.
- PCC division is a diversion from the real issues that USPSA (and really, practical shooting in general) faces with regards to expanding its membership.

SLG
02-25-2016, 10:09 AM
THE OPEN SHOOTERS WON'T BE THE FASTEST ANYMORE



The open shooters will still be the fastest, at least at the top levels. This has been proven many times over, though I'm sure there will be an exception here or there.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 10:12 AM
I haven't MD'd in a long time, so I'll defer to Josh on the logistical issues.

My concerns are:
- I don't think that PCC division will be very popular, and I think that it will bring in few or no new shooters.
- PCC division will dilute an already shrinking pool of match sponsorship/prize money.
- PCC division is a diversion from the real issues that USPSA (and really, practical shooting in general) faces with regards to expanding its membership.

So what is the real issue, and how does PCC divert from that?

Is match sponsorship and prize money a real issue? I realize that the M-and-up shooters don't like the fact, but the organization is made up of and run by Bs and Cs, whether those guys like it or not. It's the Bs and Cs that show up early, set up, paste, MD and RO, tear down, stay late to deal with the logistics... not to mention the off-range time those guys put in. Which isn't to say that some M and GM shooters don't do those things too, but Ben's podcast is a great example of what a lot of the top-tier shooters really think of the peons that serve them. Should we be making decisions about a division based on what the 1% think might affect their bottom line?

rob_s
02-25-2016, 10:17 AM
I suppose I should also say this...

I am not a USPSA RO, MD, or whatever. However, I was involved in IDPA for a long time as an SO, as a board member of my local club, and worked several state matches. I also founded and ran my own two-gun match, as a subset of said IDPA club, for several years. I say this to say that I *do* have some idea of the logistics and admin of matches. We also shot on a public county range, with no bays, and had time, budget, 180, and other constraints that many clubs shooting on private property and/or in bays don't have.

and I'm genuinely interested in the resistance to this division, albeit so that those championing for it can also be made aware and address the concerns in a pro-active way rather than just ignoring them or trying to deal with them after the fact.

Chris Rhines
02-25-2016, 10:34 AM
So what is the real issue, and how does PCC divert from that?

Is match sponsorship and prize money a real issue? I realize that the M-and-up shooters don't like the fact, but the organization is made up of and run by Bs and Cs, whether those guys like it or not. It's the Bs and Cs that show up early, set up, paste, MD and RO, tear down, stay late to deal with the logistics... not to mention the off-range time those guys put in. Which isn't to say that some M and GM shooters don't do those things too, but Ben's podcast is a great example of what a lot of the top-tier shooters really think of the peons that serve them. Should we be making decisions about a division based on what the 1% think might affect their bottom line?
The biggest issue that I see, when it comes to attracting new shooters to the game, is a lack of accessible places to shoot. USPSA has a huge wealth of institutional expertise and a ready-made lobbying organization, but we've never used it to advocate for more new shooting ranges, and opening up existing clubs to USPSA events. We should be focusing on this, rather than spending time and money promoting a new division that only existing USPSA shooters are going to play in.

And on that note, yes, match sponsorship and prize money is a huge issue, at least when it comes to putting on quality matches. Without that sponsor money, the matches don't get built, and without a decent prize table, they don't get filled. If anyone out there thinks that PCC will bring more sponsor money into the sport, I'm willing to listen, but right now I'm not seeing it. There just aren't enough of them out there.

GJM
02-25-2016, 10:43 AM
I have never understood the appeal of prizes. As Robbie Leatham told me, if you are interested in match winnings, you would be better off to get a part time job at Walmart.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 10:47 AM
And on that note, yes, match sponsorship and prize money is a huge issue, at least when it comes to putting on quality matches. Without that sponsor money, the matches don't get built, and without a decent prize table, they don't get filled. If anyone out there thinks that PCC will bring more sponsor money into the sport, I'm willing to listen, but right now I'm not seeing it. There just aren't enough of them out there.

This seems like a chicken:egg thing to me. There isn't any avenue for any PCC industry participation because there isn't a PCC division, but we don't have a PCC division because nobody is donating industry money to matches? And I still don't see what it hurts in regards to this issue. Where is the "dilution"? If some geek is only attending the match to be able to walk the table with his 3rd place D so he gets a cleaning kit, he can have mine. and that's really a non-issue at the local level, where I believe this is being rolled out.

I agree with you re: venues, but I'm in SE FL and there simply aren't going to be any more of those, outside a couple of new/pending options. And, frankly, the problem we have here isn't lack of venue, it's lack of ANY support from USPSA or IDPA national to get new ranges hosting matches. Since it's really just all on the backs of the Bs and Cs. But, again, how does PCC hurt this effort?

I get what you're saying, that USPSA may have bigger fish to fry, but it seems to me that the PCC thing is more like a hush puppy, at best, and therefore doesn't affect the number or size of the fish in the Fry Daddy.

I think the way to do this, and I think the way it's being done, is to amend the rules to allow the PCC at local matches, and for the BOD to provide rules should the local club(s) wish to offer that division. Provided we aren't letting one guy in the squad shoot both guns, I don't see the negative impact in any way.

Peally
02-25-2016, 10:47 AM
That or go shoot multigun. They're completely uninteresting to me unless they happen to award based on placement, and even then it's not a deciding factor on whether I shoot a match.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 10:49 AM
I have never understood the appeal of prizes. As Robbie Leatham told me, if you are interested in match winnings, you would be better off to get a part time job at Walmart.

I think $-gun changed this, sort of, for a time. It basically allowed the guy with the disposable income required to be competitive in the game to recoup some of his money once he won. But the economics of shooting are right up there with the economics of organized crime.. there aren't any. You don't see anyone that's making 6 figures in a 9-5 job quitting to go run off and join the shooting circus. Wasn't Stoeger the manager of an Arby's before he got good enough to make a living at it?

Peally
02-25-2016, 11:12 AM
Even then he makes his living off of classes and the pro shop, there's no one making a living just shooting like Woods would golfing.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 11:20 AM
Even then he makes his living off of classes and the pro shop, there's no one making a living just shooting like Woods would golfing.

Correct. I should have clarified that. Shooting and winning gets him the name recognition, teaching and selling stuff online makes the money. In a way, shooting the matches is just marketing. But I would bet that Tiger makes way more off endorsements than he does the golfing, so in a way the golf is marketing for him too. In both cases they are marketing the brand of Tiger or Ben.

SLG
02-25-2016, 01:10 PM
Even then he makes his living off of classes and the pro shop, there's no one making a living just shooting like Woods would golfing.

That is absolutely not true. There are not many people who make a good living just shooting, but they do exist.

joshs
02-25-2016, 01:17 PM
I haven't MD'd in a long time, so I'll defer to Josh on the logistical issues.

My concerns are mostly caused by range limitation due to running a match in the single "bay" of an indoor range. I've run quite a few multigun and pistol only matches, and I don't think there is a way around long guns adding time to the match without compromising safety. Handguns in holsters provide a very nice bright-line rule for gun handling. Handguns don't come out of the holster unless in a safe area or under the direct supervision of an RO. This eliminates risks of gun handling behind the firing line and outside of RO supervision. The only way to provide this level of control with long guns would be to require long guns to be cased unless in the safe area or under direct supervision of an RO. Casing/uncasing will add time by itself and there will be more delays when a shooter doesn't realize he is on-deck and has to go get his case.

Here are some other issues that I've been thinking about:

Fixing a stage prop or unpasted target after "make ready" is more time consuming if the shooter has nowhere to put the PCC except in his hands.

CoF design needs to take into account people moving with long guns. It is much easier to get DQed while moving in certain ways with a long gun than a pistol. IME, most multigun matches are not nearly as strict about the 180 as long as the muzzle is pointed at the ground.

I also think the steel safe distance might need to be assessed with the increased velocity from PCCs.

rob_s
02-25-2016, 01:39 PM
The no-holster concern is a common one. When I started my two-gun matches it was probably the most-discussed item. What we came to was requiring slings that orient the gun muzzle-down, in front of the shooter, and chamber flags of a type approved by me (which were available for purchase at any match). This solution will clearly not be comforting to everyone, especially the "sporting" pistol shooter who only views his handgun as a football bat and has no further interest or experience with firearms. Other options/requests included the gun carts from $-gun (I believe the current MD of my old matches is allowing this now, I would not be were I running things), bags (time-consuming, as you mentioned), and rifle racks at the stage/bay (prompted arguments of muzzle up/down, cost, design, etc.). Post-make-ready repairs were handled the same as a pistol would be, safety on, let the gun hang, hands up.

As to movement, I see that as a shooter issue, but given the ever-shifting level of shooter proficiency that may not be sufficient. I never once gave it a second thought in designing two-gun stages, so I don't see it as a realistic issue. Of course, as you point out, we allowed muzzle-down-ish (low ready down, not straight down, although it happens).

Either way, all of these things to me (a) seem minor and (b) can happen with pistols just as easily as they can with PCCs. I've seen guys come to the line without guns and/or mags plenty of times. I've also seen them point their guns where they shouldn't be.

But, since one of the common complaints is that "nobody is going to shoot it", the impact tot he overall match time should be insignificant.

mmc45414
02-25-2016, 08:39 PM
Sample of one, and just spit balling, but maybe the lube interfered with the blowback function.
And maybe you live where it is cold?.. :)

GJM
02-25-2016, 09:48 PM
And maybe you live where it is cold?.. :)

Often, but not this time, as it happened in Arizona.

Drang
02-26-2016, 04:08 AM
Often, but not this time, as it happened in Arizona.

I got snowed on at Ft Huachuca...

Peally
02-26-2016, 09:10 AM
Lube always interferes with the blowback function; the cold weather creates more blowback issues but they're unrelated to the lube.

:cool:

nalesq
02-26-2016, 09:39 AM
[QUOTE=Peally;412385]Lube always interferes with the blowback function[\QUOTE]

I have heard this as well, especially in regard to rimfire semi autos, but why would this be the case?

Peally
02-26-2016, 09:45 AM
I don't even know where the line between serious question and sexual innuendo is at this point, so I apologize.

All I'll say is I don't do the whole "rimfire" thing but to each his own :D

GJM
03-01-2016, 10:22 PM
After consulting with A1 AD and President Foley we have added PCC as a provisional division to our upcoming Zion Classic match.

We will be sending a report back on anything we encounter that might impact the PCC appendix, match operations with PCC, and safety.

We have a fair amount of experience running PCC in other large matches (MG and Steel) so we feel we are a good guinea pig for this, and so off we go.Register below.

You are already in the match. You can change your division here:|

[url]https://practiscore.com/taran-tactical-innovations-2016-zion-classic

or add a second gun here:

[url]https://practiscore.com/taran-tactical-innovations-2016-zion-classic

Second guns will be approved in with a custom 1/2 price fee. Just indicate it is a 2nd gun in the comment box in the registration form.


We will be following the PCC rules as released in today's PCC appendix.

Regards,

Ken N.
M.D.

Josh Runkle
03-01-2016, 10:56 PM
My concerns are:
- I don't think that PCC division will be very popular, and I think that it will bring in few or no new shooters.


I have students, friends and colleagues who shoot USPSA. It has never been appealing to me. I would go to shoot PCC. So, I would be a new USPSA shooter if the division was available.

Sadmin
03-02-2016, 10:06 AM
Anyone ever try the 9mm's from Definitive Arms?
https://www.coppercustom.com/shop/rifles/definitive-arms-akx-9s-side-folder/

DA makes very high quality AK builds, and though this 9 is not nearly as proven, it looks promising. Just the kind of thing a USPSA competitor would like to be in front of. :-)

I have one, its a ball to shoot. I added the magpul folding stock and an rds and its the most requested gun to shoot by family and friends. Probably around 1k+ rounds through it by now. The stick mags occasionally need to be slammed in, in order to seat, even with bolt locked to rear but it could be they are still new. I have had exactly 1 ftf with it, it was with 147gr Jack Ross that was some kind of semi wadcutter / had a moderate abrupt shoulder. It was an expensive toy that has turned into a viable defensive gun since its a laser beam at 50y and in and has almost no recoil.

Chuck Haggard
03-21-2016, 02:12 PM
Pricey, but interdasting;


The Wilson Combat AR9 was designed from the ground up as the new standard in pistol caliber carbine reliability. The use of common 9mm service pistol magazines makes it an ideal choice for patrol, home defense and cost-effective tactical training.
Not simply a converted AR-15, the Wilson Combat AR9 has been specifically designed for superior reliability and maximum accuracy, while retaining the familiar handling and controls of the AR platform. The AR9 is available with your choice of pistol magazine compatibility, barrel length, custom Armor Tuff colors and other accessory options to suit your specific needs.
Wilson Combat engineers have designed three unique AR9 lower receivers with last round bolt hold open that are compatible with the most popular 9mm service pistol magazines from GlockⓇ, BerettaⓇ and S&WⓇ.
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-ar9-sbr.asp?utm_source=Wilson+Combat+Newsletter&utm_campaign=73cc28b281-AR9Carbine03212016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7e19171a14-73cc28b281-311399977&mc_cid=73cc28b281&mc_eid=c06eb86992#.VvBG8fkrI4d

rob_s
03-21-2016, 02:16 PM
Pricey, but interdasting;


http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-ar9-sbr.asp?utm_source=Wilson+Combat+Newsletter&utm_campaign=73cc28b281-AR9Carbine03212016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7e19171a14-73cc28b281-311399977&mc_cid=73cc28b281&mc_eid=c06eb86992#.VvBG8fkrI4d
I'd buy one if I didn't already have a 9mm she.

GJM
03-21-2016, 03:36 PM
Wilson is offering one model for Glock magazines, available now, and another model for Beretta magazines, shipping soon.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg.html)

Edwin
03-21-2016, 05:04 PM
What's everyone using for optics? I know jack shit about rifles.

Also, here's what I'm going to try using at first. https://imgur.com/a/sn3Su

littlejerry
03-21-2016, 05:11 PM
Wilson is offering one model for Glock magazines, available now, and another model for Beretta magazines, shipping soon.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg.html)

For $2000.


It's hard for me to justify a $2000 AR, or even PCC. It makes an MKE MP5 look inexpensive...

LittleLebowski
03-21-2016, 05:20 PM
What's everyone using for optics? I know jack shit about rifles.

Also, here's what I'm going to try using at first. https://imgur.com/a/sn3Su

You want a red dot or magnified?

Edwin
03-21-2016, 05:50 PM
You want a red dot or magnified?
Doesn't seem like we would be shooting beyond 35 yards often enough to justify magnified, but I'd be curious to see what others think.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Josh Runkle
03-21-2016, 06:07 PM
Pricey, but interdasting;


http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-ar9-sbr.asp?utm_source=Wilson+Combat+Newsletter&utm_campaign=73cc28b281-AR9Carbine03212016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7e19171a14-73cc28b281-311399977&mc_cid=73cc28b281&mc_eid=c06eb86992#.VvBG8fkrI4d

Wow! How cool! I'm surprised that Lone Wolf, Palmetto Arms and Sig Sauer haven't tried to make something similar!

StraitR
03-21-2016, 06:44 PM
Pricey, but interdasting;


http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-ar9-sbr.asp?utm_source=Wilson+Combat+Newsletter&utm_campaign=73cc28b281-AR9Carbine03212016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7e19171a14-73cc28b281-311399977&mc_cid=73cc28b281&mc_eid=c06eb86992#.VvBG8fkrI4d

I got the email about this today at work, and subsequently spent the next 15 minutes calculating the cost, plus SBR stamp, plus pistol suppressor, plus stamp, plus roughly having to wait until 2017 to get it. :( Very interdasting indeed.

Talionis
03-21-2016, 08:17 PM
Looks a lot like a QC10 lower to me.

I assume it will work, but I'm not sure the wilson name is worth the markup if someone knows how to tune a 9mmAR ejector to get them running right.

Edwin
03-22-2016, 03:11 AM
Anyone ever try the 9mm's from Definitive Arms?
https://www.coppercustom.com/shop/rifles/definitive-arms-akx-9s-side-folder/

DA makes very high quality AK builds, and though this 9 is not nearly as proven, it looks promising. Just the kind of thing a USPSA competitor would like to be in front of. :-)
You could always wait and see how the Alfa turns out. http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2016/01/20/kalashnikov-usa-unveils-9mm-ak-prototype-alfa-rifle/

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

LittleLebowski
03-22-2016, 07:15 AM
Doesn't seem like we would be shooting beyond 35 yards often enough to justify magnified, but I'd be curious to see what others think.


OK, I know that not using an Aimpoint will get you killed on the streets but if it were me, I'd just slap the combo deal with the riser for the Primary Arms Advanced Micro (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD2L62M) and be rocking a daylight visible, well reviewed red dot with 50K hour battery life for $200. That is my next red dot. The owners of Primary Arms participate on some gun forums and stand behind their products. Uncle Pat Rogers told me that he "can't break" these sights.

Again, this is what I would do as I'm tired of spending $500-$700 on red dots and this would be a gaming gun anyway.

Robinson
03-22-2016, 07:41 AM
OK, I know that not using an Aimpoint will get you killed on the streets but if it were me, I'd just slap the combo deal with the riser for the Primary Arms Advanced Micro (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD2L62M) and be rocking a daylight visible, well reviewed red dot with 50K hour battery life for $200. That is my next red dot. The owners of Primary Arms participate on some gun forums and stand behind their products. Uncle Pat Rogers told me that he "can't break" these sights.

Again, this is what I would do as I'm tired of spending $500-$700 on red dots and this would be a gaming gun anyway.

Hmmm... I'm tempted to look at this for my 300 BLK rifle. You mention "daylight visible" -- would this also be usable in dim light? I wonder if my Troy irons would be visible in the lower third of the reticle? Depends on the mount I guess.

Then again, I've seen the Aimpoint Pro for sale way under $500 and the Aimpoint ACO for under $400...

LittleLebowski
03-22-2016, 07:58 AM
Hmmm... I'm tempted to look at this for my 300 BLK rifle. You mention "daylight visible" -- would this also be usable in dim light? I wonder if my Troy irons would be visible in the lower third of the reticle? Depends on the mount I guess.

Yes and yes.

Robinson
03-22-2016, 08:51 AM
Yes and yes.

Thanks.

mmc45414
03-23-2016, 05:49 AM
tune a 9mmAR ejector to get them running right.

And when you say "tune" I think you mean bend them with a pair of pliers till the gun runs right? :)

I struggled and struggled with mine, thinking it was my reloads, until I finally found some www advise on tweaking the ejector and it has run 100% ever since, except for a very small number of obviously flawed rounds (enough crimp for the pistol is just not enough crimp for the AR).

mmc45414
03-23-2016, 05:55 AM
Primary Arms Advanced Micro (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD2L62M) and be rocking a daylight visible, well reviewed red dot with 50K hour battery life for $200.

Thanks for this tip. I have a silver H-1 on my Ruger MK-III, because it is silver and Midway ran a bunch on an awesome sale a few years ago, but there are lots of ideas I have for that sight that just don't mesh with the $500. I mean, they are good ideas, just not that good of ideas...

ffhounddog
03-23-2016, 05:59 AM
I still look for sub $275 CompM2s shipped but I have an old primary Arms m68 look alike that just works. Some of the vortex optics look promising but, normally more expensive.

Talionis
03-23-2016, 09:29 AM
And when you say "tune" I think you mean bend them with a pair of pliers till the gun runs right? :)

I struggled and struggled with mine, thinking it was my reloads, until I finally found some www advise on tweaking the ejector and it has run 100% ever since, except for a very small number of obviously flawed rounds (enough crimp for the pistol is just not enough crimp for the AR).

Haha, yep! That is precisely what I mean.

So far I've bent the ejector with pliers, cleaned up the bolt with a razor hone and sandpaper, used three different buffer springs, dramatically reduced OAL and increased crimp on my loads, and tweaked the position of the Hahn magazine block. I've just about got it running the way I want, though I'm still fighting with the LRBHO function.

Looking forward to the MP5:)

Exurbankevin
03-24-2016, 07:26 AM
Wow! How cool! I'm surprised that Lone Wolf, Palmetto Arms and Sig Sauer haven't tried to make something similar!

ATI is coming out with one in the next couple of weeks: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/18/american-tactical-ars/ that should be much more affordable, albeit not a Wilson Combat-level gun. :D

I'm surprised that Ruger hasn't caught on to what's happening and re-releases the PC-9 in a more "tactical" get up.

ffhounddog
03-24-2016, 07:37 AM
Yeah my wife actually said I could SBR another 9mm lower, the total issue is if we go Glock its hard to Glock AR's. I have one and the Beretta Storm and would love to SBR the storm but I am using that as a quasi travel gun to places that cannot have flashhiders. PSA is using NFA lowres and I know the one I have is a QC10 lower.

After all the issues with surefire saying yes they are bringing attachments for my ryder 9 and then another saying no they are not have me thinking I should have just went with a gemtech. I am thinking of doing another 5.5 build and leaving it with a suppressor on it and a 7-9 inch rail. The pistol version might fit the bill.

Josh Runkle
03-24-2016, 12:45 PM
ATI is coming out with one in the next couple of weeks: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/18/american-tactical-ars/ that should be much more affordable, albeit not a Wilson Combat-level gun. :D

I'm surprised that Ruger hasn't caught on to what's happening and re-releases the PC-9 in a more "tactical" get up.

My post was sarcastic, because Wilson combat's press release reads like their products are leading the industry like they used to in 2005 or so.

Sure, it's probably a nice product, but certainly not innovative. But that's their gig. They didn't invent the 1911, 870, AR15, M9...they just make polished, well fit, highly crafted versions of them. They're not inventing something new, though, and I get tired when they act like they are. They should just admit to being great at what they do, and stick to that.

Yeah...everyone's gonna follow suit eventually, like Wilson Combat is doing right now.

Jeep
03-24-2016, 01:21 PM
My post was sarcastic, because Wilson combat's press release reads like their products are leading the industry like they used to in 2005 or so.

Sure, it's probably a nice product, but certainly not innovative. But that's their gig. They didn't invent the 1911, 870, AR15, M9...they just make polished, well fit, highly crafted versions of them. They're not inventing something new, though, and I get tired when they act like they are. They should just admit to being great at what they do, and stick to that.

Yeah...everyone's gonna follow suit eventually, like Wilson Combat is doing right now.

Josh: I think it depends on what one means by being "innovative" and "inventing something new." In the tech industry, none of this would be innovative. Given the stodgy nature of the gun industry, however, I think the Brig Tac was innovative, given it took 30 years for something to work with Beretta to turn a basic platform with some issues into a top end product. And, if they can get their PCC to work first time, every time with Beretta and Glock mags, they will have advanced the industry as well.

Anyway, I think Wilson does a much better job than others finding ways to bring innovative, though incremental, change to the industry.

GJM
03-24-2016, 01:47 PM
I think a major reason that WC does well, is the company was founded by a big time gun enthusiast. Most new WC products are things Bill Wilson built because he likes them. I sure am glad Bill likes Beretta pistols, nice 1911 pistols and the AR family. It is also extremely helpful that Bill's son, Ryan, is an equally passionate shooter.

45dotACP
03-25-2016, 03:24 AM
Yeah! The ADP sure was great ;)

That said, I buy lotsastuff from Wilson...so the balance is positive.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

HCM
03-25-2016, 03:36 AM
My post was sarcastic, because Wilson combat's press release reads like their products are leading the industry like they used to in 2005 or so.

Sure, it's probably a nice product, but certainly not innovative. But that's their gig. They didn't invent the 1911, 870, AR15, M9...they just make polished, well fit, highly crafted versions of them. They're not inventing something new, though, and I get tired when they act like they are. They should just admit to being great at what they do, and stick to that.

Yeah...everyone's gonna follow suit eventually, like Wilson Combat is doing right now.

Wilson Combat AR's are certainly decent but they aren't the "Wilson Combat" of AR's, if that makes sense.

HCM
03-25-2016, 03:40 AM
OK, I know that not using an Aimpoint will get you killed on the streets but if it were me, I'd just slap the combo deal with the riser for the Primary Arms Advanced Micro (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD2L62M) and be rocking a daylight visible, well reviewed red dot with 50K hour battery life for $200. That is my next red dot. The owners of Primary Arms participate on some gun forums and stand behind their products. Uncle Pat Rogers told me that he "can't break" these sights.

Again, this is what I would do as I'm tired of spending $500-$700 on red dots and this would be a gaming gun anyway.

I hear you. Duty / defense gun = Aimpoint but my range toys get Bushnell TRS -25's. I've had great luck with them and. Primary Arms has them on sale for $69 right now.

ffhounddog
03-25-2016, 05:59 AM
Wilson is offering one model for Glock magazines, available now, and another model for Beretta magazines, shipping soon.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpstvqsfr0m.jpeg.html)

I like how they have one that runs Beretta mags. 20 round Mec-Gar or 30 round Beretta mags could be alot of fun. Especially when running a Wilson Beretta 92.

PPGMD
03-25-2016, 08:31 PM
Wilson Combat AR's are certainly decent but they aren't the "Wilson Combat" of AR's, if that makes sense.

Particularly when you can get the very well regarded JP 9mm AR for less.

Exurbankevin
03-26-2016, 04:06 PM
Particularly when you can get the very well regarded JP 9mm AR for less.

And that's one of the biggest issues with pistol-caliber carbines: Price / Power. The JP is great gun, but at $1.5k MSRP, it's in the range of a decent .223 AR, which offers far more firepower, range and options than a 9mm AR.

PPGMD
03-26-2016, 04:13 PM
And that's one of the biggest issues with pistol-caliber carbines: Price / Power. The JP is great gun, but at $1.5k MSRP, it's in the range of a decent .223 AR, which offers far more firepower, range and options than a 9mm AR.

My open gun is useless for anything but shooting USPSA, and yet I spent an absurd amount of money on it because I wanted a reliable one. For those that want to shoot the PCC divisions it will be no different.

rob_s
03-27-2016, 12:08 PM
And that's one of the biggest issues with pistol-caliber carbines: Price / Power. The JP is great gun, but at $1.5k MSRP, it's in the range of a decent .223 AR, which offers far more firepower, range and options than a 9mm AR.


My open gun is useless for anything but shooting USPSA, and yet I spent an absurd amount of money on it because I wanted a reliable one. For those that want to shoot the PCC divisions it will be no different.

Exactly this.

Not everything is about SHTFantasy. Sometimes guns are just fun.

Th 9mm AR allows for many things the 5.56 does not. PCC being just one of them.

JM Campbell
03-27-2016, 12:26 PM
Thanks for this tip. I have a silver H-1 on my Ruger MK-III, because it is silver and Midway ran a bunch on an awesome sale a few years ago, but there are lots of ideas I have for that sight that just don't mesh with the $500. I mean, they are good ideas, just not that good of ideas...
Some Avero paint and some tape to cover the lenses and the silver is gone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Jeep
03-27-2016, 01:06 PM
Exactly this.

Not everything is about SHTFantasy. Sometimes guns are just fun.

Th 9mm AR allows for many things the 5.56 does not. PCC being just one of them.

Shooting in the middle Atlantic region, where I live, is another. Not too many places to shoot a 5.56. Lots of places to shoot a 9mm.

mmc45414
03-27-2016, 05:53 PM
Some Avero paint and some tape to cover the lenses and the silver is gone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
It is on a silver gun now, and I kinda dig it there [emoji3]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

mmc45414
03-27-2016, 06:05 PM
Exactly this.

Not everything is about SHTFantasy.

I got the 9mm AR because I want to shoot the AR more often on more common targets. I say it is a range toy or a training tool, depending on how seriously (Or how FoS) I am taking myself.

But..... we shot mine over the chronograph and a +P GDHP gained 300fps, putting it well into the 357 equivalency territory.

And it the most fun thing I have ever bought!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

GJM
03-27-2016, 06:37 PM
Here is my Colt 9mm:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsrkr0wsbs.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsrkr0wsbs.jpeg.html)

SecondsCount
03-27-2016, 07:39 PM
I wonder if they will have an iron sight division

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tightgroup/g/ar/colt9mm_sm.jpg

GJM
03-27-2016, 07:46 PM
I wonder if they will have an iron sight division

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tightgroup/g/ar/colt9mm_sm.jpg

Maybe in IDPA.

Edwin
03-28-2016, 01:44 AM
Now I want to use my PCC in IDPA just to fuck with people on drawing from concealment.

PPGMD
03-28-2016, 07:57 AM
I wonder if they will have an iron sight division

Steel Challenge will have both iron sight and optics for PCC.

Exurbankevin
03-28-2016, 10:52 AM
Shooting in the middle Atlantic region, where I live, is another. Not too many places to shoot a 5.56. Lots of places to shoot a 9mm.

This is one of the big reasons why I like pistol-caliber carbines and this new division: You can have 90% of the fun on a 3 gun match, with 10% of the hassles. A mid-week carbine/shotgun match can be run on a pistol bay and not require 300 yard shots and a day's work of setup.

Edwin
03-28-2016, 01:12 PM
Yup. I want to do some fun themed ones like M1 Carbine (http://www.legacysports.com/m-1-9mm-carbine) and Hi Power.

Lomshek
03-28-2016, 01:58 PM
I wonder why they are not allowing suppressors? There can't be enough gas pressure left out of a barrel longer than 6 or 8 inches to allow it to help reduce recoil like a comp and the extra weight wouldn't be much of a help (would it?).

It'd be kind of cool seeing where the tech would evolve. I'm thinking some high quality integrally suppressed barrels.

SecondsCount
03-28-2016, 02:09 PM
I wonder why they are not allowing suppressors? There can't be enough gas pressure left out of a barrel longer than 6 or 8 inches to allow it to help reduce recoil like a comp and the extra weight wouldn't be much of a help (would it?).

It'd be kind of cool seeing where the tech would evolve. I'm thinking some high quality integrally suppressed barrels.

Not all states allow suppressors which could would create an uneven playing field??

Josh Runkle
03-28-2016, 02:20 PM
Not all states allow suppressors which could would create an uneven playing field??

I frankly wish that shooting sports focused less on creating an even playing field and more on creating an even gun community.

I'd rather see the message be: "well, you're in one of the 9 states where the government is retarded and put you at a disadvantage that 41 other states did not."

I hate that I can avoid states like California and Illinois all day long, but their reach into f*cking the gun community extends beyond their state. I don't like that the shooting community tolerates this.

The standard answer should be: your state places you at a disadvantage. Sorry. Get pissed at your state, not us.

rob_s
03-28-2016, 02:21 PM
I wonder why they are not allowing suppressors? There can't be enough gas pressure left out of a barrel longer than 6 or 8 inches to allow it to help reduce recoil like a comp and the extra weight wouldn't be much of a help (would it?).

It'd be kind of cool seeing where the tech would evolve. I'm thinking some high quality integrally suppressed barrels.

I wouldn't allow them if I was making the rules, simply due to the admin issues of the timer not always picking up the shots and the shooters getting a second run. That's just going to annoy the pistol-only crowd and further the animosity already brewing toward this division.

But personally, I'd prefer to shoot it with the can.

PPGMD
03-28-2016, 02:50 PM
I wonder why they are not allowing suppressors? There can't be enough gas pressure left out of a barrel longer than 6 or 8 inches to allow it to help reduce recoil like a comp and the extra weight wouldn't be much of a help (would it?).

When I asked about that, the general opinion was that the comp helped, not a lot, but it helped. On my 16" gun is is pretty clear that some of the gas is getting to the second chamber of the comp including the upward ports.

Exurbankevin
03-28-2016, 02:50 PM
I wouldn't allow them if I was making the rules, simply due to the admin issues of the timer not always picking up the shots and the shooters getting a second run.

Having RO'd matches with shooters using cans, yes, that is an issue. You have to put the timer right up next to the gun for it to pickup any sound, greatly increasing the risk of an RO-induced reshoot.

Luke
03-28-2016, 04:29 PM
When I asked about that, the general opinion was that the comp helped, not a lot, but it helped. On my 16" gun is is pretty clear that some of the gas is getting to the second chamber of the comp including the upward ports.

Any rules about making a higher PF ammo for PCC to run a comp effectively?

GuanoLoco
03-28-2016, 04:32 PM
1600 fps max

PPGMD
03-28-2016, 04:33 PM
Any rules about making a higher PF ammo for PCC to run a comp effectively?

None that I am aware of. But it would require tuning.

Personally I think I am just going to run typical 115gr ammo. It gives a nice fast return on target. The bolt was running a little sluggish with 130PF ammo.

Lomshek
03-28-2016, 11:05 PM
Having RO'd matches with shooters using cans, yes, that is an issue. You have to put the timer right up next to the gun for it to pickup any sound, greatly increasing the risk of an RO-induced reshoot.

I can see that. The only time I ran into a shooter using a suppressor was at an outlaw night shoot I put on and once I realized what was going on I bumped up the mic sensitivity to max and it worked OK. That sensitive mic can be a double edged sword.

rob_s
04-03-2016, 09:23 AM
PCC in $-gun?

6971

jwperry
04-03-2016, 12:22 PM
I wonder how long this will last with shooters shouldering Sig braced 'pistols' before someone cries foul?

Josh Runkle
04-03-2016, 01:00 PM
I wonder how long this will last with shooters shouldering Sig braced 'pistols' before someone cries foul?

Well, a pistol is not a carbine, so I don't see how they could compete in a carbine class.

Edwin
04-03-2016, 02:36 PM
I wonder how long this will last with shooters shouldering Sig braced 'pistols' before someone cries foul?

The appendix specifically does not allow shoulder braces. Line 6:

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20for%20USPSA_D8_DNROI_posting3116. pdf

Edwin
04-03-2016, 02:43 PM
OK, I know that not using an Aimpoint will get you killed on the streets but if it were me, I'd just slap the combo deal with the riser for the Primary Arms Advanced Micro (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OD2L62M) and be rocking a daylight visible, well reviewed red dot with 50K hour battery life for $200. That is my next red dot. The owners of Primary Arms participate on some gun forums and stand behind their products. Uncle Pat Rogers told me that he "can't break" these sights.

Again, this is what I would do as I'm tired of spending $500-$700 on red dots and this would be a gaming gun anyway.

I've been doing more reading to learn more and it seems like the PA tube sights have parallax issues under 50 yards. Considering I'm mostly shooting under 35 yards, it would probably be best to find something that is parallax free like a Holoson (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B014GBIZD2/) or a open reflex sight that is rifle sized (bigger than an RMR).

jwperry
04-03-2016, 02:45 PM
Well, a pistol is not a carbine, so I don't see how they could compete in a carbine class.
Ah, verbage technicality.

Josh Runkle
04-03-2016, 03:29 PM
Ah, verbage technicality.

Well, I mean, open gun is separate from limited, etc.

It is illegal to fire a pistol with an arm brace from the shoulder, so, I can't see USPSA allowing that.

USPSA defines classes, so I can't imagine them letting a pistol be shot during a carbine match.

What's the issue here?

jwperry
04-03-2016, 03:34 PM
Well, I mean, open gun is separate from limited, etc.

It is illegal to fire a pistol with an arm brace from the shoulder, so, I can't see USPSA allowing that.

USPSA defines classes, so I can't imagine them letting a pistol be shot during a carbine match.

What's the issue here?
No issue, the wording was something I overlooked.
I will say though, in my local multigun & 3 gun matches we have had more than a few guys shouldering AR/AK pistol variants. No one bats an eye. In my head, that's where the confusion came from as that was my point of reference.

Edwin posted the rule specifically banning those type of pistol/carbine/other weapon, so my question is moot because USPSA already thought of it.

Josh Runkle
04-03-2016, 03:44 PM
No issue, the wording was something I overlooked.
I will say though, in my local multigun & 3 gun matches we have had more than a few guys shouldering AR/AK pistol variants. No one bats an eye. In my head, that's where the confusion came from as that was my point of reference.

Edwin posted the rule specifically banning those type of pistol/carbine/other weapon, so my question is moot because USPSA already thought of it.

My understanding is that the BATFE originally found no fault in shouldering pistol braces, but then reverse position and declared them to be SBR'd when fired from the shoulder. Tantamount to making your gun run full auto without a tax stamp. At this point, it's declared to be VERY illegal to do so, but, one could always be the first test case in court, and then we'd have an actual answer.

If you see that activity, you should stop it.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Josh Runkle
04-03-2016, 05:35 PM
It's my understand that the BATFE said that putting a pistol brace on a pistol with the intent of shouldering it was building an SBR and that building an SBR without filing a Form 1 was illegal.

I'm about as far from a lawyer as possible (in fact, I'm almost human:)) so I urge people to give no weight to my words on legal (or really any other) matters.

"The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

-from my ATF link

Luke
04-03-2016, 06:08 PM
(emphasis added)

Isn't that what I said?


No, you said intent.



ETA: :)

Josh Runkle
04-03-2016, 06:10 PM
(emphasis added)

Isn't that what I said?

You were referencing building with the intent: i.e., construction.

They are referencing "intends to use": i.e., usage.

Drang
04-03-2016, 06:13 PM
Arguing about what the ATF really meant... Where's that popcorn .gif?

Talionis
04-03-2016, 06:38 PM
We had our annual back-to-back High-capacity/Low-capacity match this weekend. Day 1 recognized only the high-capacity divisions (Open, Limited, PCC) and day 2 recognized only the low-capacity divisions (Production, SS, Limited 10, Revo). Both days shot exactly the same stages. I shot PCC in the hi-cap match, and Prod in the lo-cap match. I ended up with division wins in both, and 2nd overall in hi-cap, 1st overall in lo-cap. While it wasn't technically a major match, most of us that shoot it treat it as such, with trophies and annual bragging rights on the line.

This match is one of my favorites because it gives me the chance to shoot the same stages multiple times in different divisions and compare the results. In this case, I beat my production scores by 15% when shooting PCC. My total time in PCC was 160, and my time in Production was 175. I also shot better points in PCC, with 1016 for PCC vs. 989 for Prod. I did beat PCC with production on two stages, both of which involved fairly tight movement and shooting through/around ports and walls at awkward angles. I'll try to get some video comparing PCC with pistol on the same stages up soon.

PPGMD
04-03-2016, 08:40 PM
"The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.

Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

-from my ATF link


The "remaking" logic that the ATF uses has already been shot down once. I forget which court, but it was over putting a VFG on a Glock

GJM
04-03-2016, 09:16 PM
We had our annual back-to-back High-capacity/Low-capacity match this weekend. Day 1 recognized only the high-capacity divisions (Open, Limited, PCC) and day 2 recognized only the low-capacity divisions (Production, SS, Limited 10, Revo). Both days shot exactly the same stages. I shot PCC in the hi-cap match, and Prod in the lo-cap match. I ended up with division wins in both, and 2nd overall in hi-cap, 1st overall in lo-cap. While it wasn't technically a major match, most of us that shoot it treat it as such, with trophies and annual bragging rights on the line.

This match is one of my favorites because it gives me the chance to shoot the same stages multiple times in different divisions and compare the results. In this case, I beat my production scores by 15% when shooting PCC. My total time in PCC was 160, and my time in Production was 175. I also shot better points in PCC, with 1016 for PCC vs. 989 for Prod. I did beat PCC with production on two stages, both of which involved fairly tight movement and shooting through/around ports and walls at awkward angles. I'll try to get some video comparing PCC with pistol on the same stages up soon.

You didn't mention Carry Optics?

Talionis
04-03-2016, 09:25 PM
You didn't mention Carry Optics?

Good point! We actually had a whopping 4 people turn out for CO at the match, which is 3 more than I am used to seeing. The top CO shooter has been making some pretty big improvements recently, and managed a 15th finish in the low-cap match. (Don't read that as insulting CO, it just isn't a very good data point)

GJM
04-03-2016, 09:37 PM
Good point! We actually had a whopping 4 people turn out for CO at the match, which is 3 more than I am used to seeing. The top CO shooter has been making some pretty big improvements recently, and managed a 15th finish in the low-cap match. (Don't read that as insulting CO, it just isn't a very good data point)

I shot my first CO match Saturday, and it is the most fun I recall at a match in a while. Around here it seems like CO grows each month by one or two shooters, and most are coming out of Production or other low cap divisions. A bunch more shooters have guns in the works, for future participation. Kind of fun running my Glock 19 MOS up with the open shooters.

Josh Runkle
04-04-2016, 08:21 AM
I frankly wish that shooting sports focused less on creating an even playing field and more on creating an even gun community.

I'd rather see the message be: "well, you're in one of the 9 states where the government is retarded and put you at a disadvantage that 41 other states did not."

I hate that I can avoid states like California and Illinois all day long, but their reach into f*cking the gun community extends beyond their state. I don't like that the shooting community tolerates this.

The standard answer should be: your state places you at a disadvantage. Sorry. Get pissed at your state, not us.

Correction: the ratio is now 8 to 42. Congratulations Iowans.

rob_s
05-04-2016, 07:22 AM
So the Practical Pistol Show addressed this in a recent show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8s9XFYF6gw).

The issues they raised, as I see it, were twofold, with the second issue having two sub-sets
(1) Focusing on PCC distracts the BOD from other more important issues like "making USPSA better" ("better", as defined by the PPS crew)
(2) The pistol stages don't work for PCC
(2a) pistol stages aren't challenging enough for PCC which makes PCC a hose-fest and therefore "gay"
(2b) pistol stages will have to change to accommodate PCC strictly from a practical standpoint

Personally, I find (1) to be a red herring. First, what the PPS guys think is "better" isn't, to me, actually better for the B/C guys that both make up and provide the labor for USPSA.

(2) in generally largely falls into the "sky is falling" and "don't change my beer" mentality that seems to be the core of the resistance to PCC. I think it's kind of funny that so many of the game's "young guns" are already curmudgeonly about change. I get a lot of "it will change the game" arguments without a lot of substance or examples of how. What they really seem to be saying is "I'm afraid it will change the game but I have no actual reason for thinking that or examples of how".

(2a) is interesting to me. Basically, the argument is that USPSA should be providing "best in class service", and to do that the stages should be challenging to the shooters, otherwise it shouldn't be part of USPSA. I can agree with this somewhat, but I think you let the market decide that.

(2b) was a case where they really couldn't offer any examples. Les pressed them, and eventually they said "you can't shoot a PCC one-handed" and "you can't shoot low port with a PCC without going prone". I find both arguments to be nonsense and indicative of a lack of experience with carbines on the part of those making the arguments. The one-handed thing may be part of the provisional rules, and if it is then it shouldn't be, that's stupid. People shoot carbines, especially PCC, one-handed all the time. The "can't do low port" thing just showcases the ignorance of carbines on the part of many pistol-only USPSA shooters.

Luke
05-04-2016, 09:58 AM
I just don't want it to happen because it will cost me money. And if it took this much work to get what little skill I have.. I can only imagine trying to progress with a rifle lol

GJM
10-16-2016, 08:21 AM
I was at a match yesterday, where someone in my squad was shooting PCC. I was very impressed by how much easier it was to shoot fast, accurate shots with the PCC. A carbine using Glock magazines would be an interesting home defense firearm, especially for a Glock handgun shooter.

El Cid
10-16-2016, 09:39 AM
I was at a match yesterday, where someone in my squad was shooting PCC. I was very impressed by how much easier it was to shoot fast, accurate shots with the PCC. A carbine using Glock magazines would be an interesting home defense firearm, especially for a Glock handgun shooter.

Agreed about the speed. I used to watch Rob_S and a few others at a local steel match. A 9mm AR or similar is very handy. I have toyed off and on over the years with buying one so I can get the repetition of running an AR at steel matches.

mmc45414
10-16-2016, 07:46 PM
I was at a match yesterday, where someone in my squad was shooting PCC. I was very impressed by how much easier it was to shoot fast, accurate shots with the PCC. A carbine using Glock magazines would be an interesting home defense firearm, especially for a Glock handgun shooter.
I have one that I have been bringing out when our little group shoots pistol scenarios and we ussualy run through one with the 9mmAR. Today at least I smoked my pistol time.

Also, the 16" gun gains about 300fps.

GJM
10-29-2016, 08:36 PM
Shot a JP GMR-13 this afternoon. Great shooter, way faster cycling than my Colt 9mm. Look forward to shooting some PCC with this.

Luke
10-29-2016, 08:39 PM
Shot a colt mag PCC today on some short stages I was practicing on. It was fun, but was semi underwhelmed. In my mind the stars would align and I'd just rip around like a GM open shooter. My times were basically the same for pistol, I'm guessing on far shots is where the PCC shines. It was fun, and I'd love to run one in a match, but didn't meet my full expectations.


Of course I came home and looked at 9mm lowers online.

GJM
10-29-2016, 08:41 PM
Wonder if the JP shoots better as my first shots fired were a Bill drill with the GMR at 7 yards into about 3 inches in the A zone at 1.40 something.

Luke
10-29-2016, 08:44 PM
I think most of it was I had no idex with this type of weapon. I have like zero time on an AR. If I had a little bigger window for the red dot and a few weeks to dry fire I could probably run one to the level I imagined in my head.

ranger
10-30-2016, 05:19 PM
My local range had an "outlaw" PCC match today - we are IDPA oriented so we essentially ran an IDPA match with pistol caliber carbines. Higher round counts than usual and longer ranges (still not much past 25 yards). 4 stages.

First stage 3 IDPA targets with majority of target masked as hard cover, 3 shots each from one side of wall then 3 more shots each from other side of wall with mandatory reload (started stage with 9 round mag) - quickly figured who did now know about sight vs bore offset. Stage 2 was kind of like a USPSA field course with about 20 rounds including small poppers and a swinging target (head shot only to be even more fun!). Stage 3 was another field course like stage with about 18 rounds. Stage 4 was higher round count - about 25 rounds - multiple firing positions and arrays, lots of hard cover and partial targets, and for a twist you only had a 20 round PCC mag so when you ran dry you had to transition to your pistol to finish the stage - fun stage.

Everyone had a good time. Most weapons were 9mm ARs, two AR in 300BO, two SIG MPX - one SBR and one 16inch, one MP5 SBR clone, one Beretta pistol carbine. All had red dots except one 300BO AR with a variable power scope. Several of the 9mm ARs were CMMG except I shot a Palmetto State Armory gun that I assembled for a "kit" - I bought a PSA 9mm AR upper with everything needed to finish the AR except stripped lower. I added the lower and finished assembly. Threw on a TASCO PDP3 dot I had left over from the stone ages of USPSA open. Cheap and it runs well with every cheap 9mm load I put through it.

GJM
11-13-2016, 05:16 PM
I have been shooting a JP GMR-13 intermittently for a week or two. I started with a RMR, as I had one, but now am using a C More railway with a 6 Moa dot. Needed the TSK (tactical spacer kit), which is a small raiser, to get the C More high enough for my face. Have not formally benchmarked the RMR vs the C More, but anecdotally I like the larger, clearer display of the C More.

The JP is an attractive package. Mine has run without a stoppage. I removed the right side of the ambi safety, as it digged into the right side of my hand, with a high grip. Also changed the supplied butt stock and grip to a Magpul CTR and MOE+. Only thing I don't like about the JP, is the magazine release is flat, not raised, and has a stiff spring. Would like to improve this so as to be able to get the magazine out quicker. I discussed the JP with a local GM, who has been shooting PCC, and he is very high on the JP GMR-13 as a great choice for PCC.

I decided to drag the JP along to my two matches this weekend, and shoot it as a second gun and repeat the classifier, to start getting some match experience with it.

Here was my classifier on Saturday. I fumbled getting the mag out, but still managed to shoot 13A/1C and finish first overall in the match on this stage. (Open M there, but no GM)


https://youtu.be/o7Nn_ZIh6Mg

Here was my classifier today, 11A/1C, and overall first in the match. (Open GM there).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87anELswkOY

My take away is I would really like to have a carbine in my hands, in a pistol fight. :)

Kevin B.
11-13-2016, 05:30 PM
I would really like to have a carbine in my hands, in a pistol fight. :)

Me too.;)

Nice shooting.

GJM
11-26-2016, 06:40 PM
I previously have shot a classifier in two matches, but today went all PCC, and shot the entire match PCC. Had great fun. Think the last time I shot a whole movement stage with a carbine was the three gun Nationals in the mid-90's. Here are a few stages, to give you a flavor. Greatly encourage those of you who keep a carbine around for sport or defense to check out USPSA PCC, as a great way to wring out the carbine at handgun distances.


https://youtu.be/9hChWdJlWCU


https://youtu.be/DFnKeVnKeB8


https://youtu.be/uShoMrvKl1w

SLG
11-26-2016, 08:42 PM
Looks good GJM.

GJM
12-11-2016, 05:05 PM
I shot PCC today and had a ball. Fun stage:


https://youtu.be/Tpb9wwqXwO4

Another one:

https://youtu.be/JflwZCybb1U

If you are considering doing it, take the plunge, as it is great fun, and gives you a reason to shoot carbine.

Dave Williams
12-12-2016, 12:12 AM
Representing with the shirt:D, nice.

rob_s
01-26-2018, 08:33 AM
I thought I'd dig this back up...

PCC really seems to be taking off. Shannon Smith even opted for PCC at the 2017 Monster Match and again at the USPSA Florida Championship. He's a great stage designer and rangemaster and I'm following his experiment with great interest, and I think it will do a lot for the division to have his attention.

So a year since this thread was last active, what's the current hardware new-hotness? What's the current go-to? What's the current lowest-entry-bar? Are you seeing an uptick in interest in your area? Are you, yourself, increasingly interested?

GJM
01-26-2018, 09:12 AM
Here is the decision tree:

1) I want to shoot factory ammo, buy the MPX.

2) I like to tinker and load, build an AR9.

3) I am willing to load but want a factory gun, buy a JP or Nordic.

4) my budget is low, buy a CZ or Palmetto equivalent.

peterb
01-26-2018, 09:32 AM
3) I am willing to load but want a factory gun, buy a JP or Nordic.

Will they not run on factory ammo? Or is there potential that you'll only unlock by loading?

ranger
01-26-2018, 09:46 AM
I am still enjoying my MPX Gen2 8inch SBR. It is OEM - no mods - and I have a Cmore dot on the rail. I use the factory skeleton folding stock but have an adapter with AR style buffer tube/stock also. No issues yet with a diet of Freedom Munitions 115FMJ and various steel case 115FMJ.

I also have an early generation PSA 16 inch 9mm PCC that has run well also but I have not pulled it out of the safe after I got the MPX and Sbr'd it.

YVK
01-26-2018, 10:53 AM
Will they not run on factory ammo? Or is there potential that you'll only unlock by loading?

Gamers' consensus is that factory flies out of those too fast and you get too much recoil. So, if placing high is important, you need a downloaded ammo.

GJM
01-26-2018, 11:10 AM
Gamers' consensus is that factory flies out of those too fast and you get too much recoil. So, if placing high is important, you need a downloaded ammo.

This.

peterb
01-26-2018, 11:12 AM
Gamers' consensus is that factory flies out of those too fast and you get too much recoil. So, if placing high is important, you need a downloaded ammo.

Sounds like the power factor should be adjusted for PCC to what one can reasonably expect from factory loads in that barrel length.

shane45
01-26-2018, 12:44 PM
Any consensus on the following?

I hear the Tavor X95 in 9mm is very reliable. (I just think it might be rather heavy)
Oldy but one I always wanted. HK USC.
I never liked the civy Kriss but playing with the select fire one enough leaves me wondering how well it does.

Jeff22
05-09-2018, 05:03 AM
A few of the local PDs bought Marlin or Ruger or Colt 9mm carbines as a replacement for the shotgun back in the early 90s. All of the departments in our county have now replaced the carbines or shotguns with 5.56mm rifles of some variety. A few departments did go with the Ruger Mini-14 for cost reasons originally but to my knowledge everybody has been running AR platform guns for years.

I have one of the Colt R6430 9mm carbines that I bought in 1992. They are great fun to shoot, and I can shoot them on steel plates and on the local indoor range without fear of damaging the equipment. If I wanted to do the same practice with one of my regular ARs, I'd have to buy frangible ammo at $350 a case. So the carbine gets lots of use as a sub-caliber trainer. (I have a S&W AR-15/.22 I also use as a practice gun)

I have been shooting the Colt carbine in some local USPSA matches since last summer the Pistol Caliber Carbine Class. I know many guys who have recently done builds on AR type 9mm carbines and some that have purchased carbines of other configurations. They are very much enjoying researching which trigger group and compensator and which optic to put on their new projects and what bullet weight to use for reloading and all that. I’m just happy to shoot my entirely stock Colt 9mm with NATO spec ammo I buy when it's on sale.

Saturday's mission is to shoot the 9mm carbine on the new IDPA carbine classifier for the first time

El Cid
05-10-2018, 10:57 AM
Any consensus on the following?

I hear the Tavor X95 in 9mm is very reliable. (I just think it might be rather heavy)
Oldy but one I always wanted. HK USC.
I never liked the civy Kriss but playing with the select fire one enough leaves me wondering how well it does.

You saw that HK is releasing another run of the USC 45 right? It’s funny to me because this run is black in a time when grey is now the new black.

shane45
05-10-2018, 11:12 AM
Interesting news! Have to check into it!