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HCM
02-19-2016, 02:29 PM
http://buzzpo.com/nj-charges-out-of-state-leo-with-felony-for-having-his-legal-gun-with-him/

NJ Charges Out-of-State LEO With Felony for Having His Legal Gun With Him


A Pennsylvania corrections officer holding the rank of sergeant has been arrested and charged with a felony by New Jersey for having his legal gun with him.

Sgt. Ray Hughes had taken his wife to dinner in Atlantic City. He was driving home when he and his wife were hit by a drunk driver.

When police responded, they noticed his ‘Fraternal Order of Police’ decal and law enforcement credentials. Hughes explained that he had his weapon with him, and police officers assured him that they’d secure it and he could pick it up later at the station.

It wasn’t until a few days had passed that Sgt. Hughes received a phone call explaining that he was being charged with a felony punishable by 3-10 years in prison.

The arresting officer explained to Hughes that he was adamantly against arresting him, but the decision came from above his level of authority.

Doea any one have further details on this or why he would not be covered under LEOSA?

I mean, besides the obvious that it is New Jersey ?

VT1032
02-19-2016, 03:19 PM
Would he qualify for LEOSA as a correctional officer? Do PA CO's have arrest authority outside the fence? Our state ones don't but they aren't considered LE at all so they aren't a good comparison.

SLG
02-19-2016, 03:30 PM
Makes me wonder why he would turn his gun over to responding officers. Not a chance of that happening, under any circumstance.

Also, having bumper stickers that tell people you are a leo is just dumb, and these days, might cost you dearly.

rsa-otc
02-19-2016, 03:38 PM
My understanding is that to qualify for LEOSA you must have powers of arrest and PA CO's do not. So it doesn't surprise me that a NJ prosecutor would take advantage of this loop hole.

rsa-otc
02-19-2016, 03:40 PM
Also, having bumper stickers that tell people you are a leo is just dumb, and these days, might cost you dearly.

FOP/PBA stickers and shields in/on car windows are common place in NJ and PA. Many spouses sport them for the obvious reasons.

hufnagel
02-19-2016, 03:45 PM
bad news for him... christie ain't in a pardoning mood anymore.

HCM
02-19-2016, 04:18 PM
Are PA CO's authorized to carry off duty on their credentials or just via CHL?

mark7
02-19-2016, 06:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3uNhdwS4Q#t=27

Tamara
02-19-2016, 06:18 PM
"When dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his peril." State of New Jersey v. Joseph Pelletier (http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-published/1996/a339-95-opn.html)

If I dropped a $100 bill and it landed two feet inside the NJ state line, hufnagel or rsa-otc could have it.

KeeFus
02-19-2016, 06:19 PM
Are PA CO's authorized to carry off duty on their credentials or just via CHL?

The problem is that PA CO's don't have powers of arrest, which is a requirement of LEOSA.

CO's here do not but Probation / Parole officers do. I think is guy is screwed.

hufnagel
02-19-2016, 06:30 PM
"When dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his peril." State of New Jersey v. Joseph Pelletier (http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-published/1996/a339-95-opn.html)

If I dropped a $100 bill and it landed two feet inside the NJ state line, hufnagel or rsa-otc could have it.

2 feet inside the NJ state line would put that bill in places I wouldn't want to go regardless of the condition of the sun. I like my life and my exit-only orifice to remain exit-only.

Dagga Boy
02-19-2016, 06:46 PM
This may be a good case for the equal liberty application.....like gay marriage. Just remember, NJ hates you as a gun owner. Why anyone would voluntarily go there is beyond me. The one time I was there was so bad just transitioning through the airport was enough that I will never take a trip again if there is a scheduled stop in NJ.

voodoo_man
02-19-2016, 07:23 PM
I've dealt with this a few times...

Some PA CO's are not covered under LEOSA. His department would be the authority on this, as would the state police.

Wayne Dobbs
02-21-2016, 01:16 PM
NJ is a world of its own for sure. But, having said that, I fly into and out of Newark several times a year on Colt business and carry on LEOSA (sans hollowpoint ammo, of course). I haven't had the first bit of a problem and don't even get a reaction when I declare firearms at check in there.

SeriousStudent
02-21-2016, 03:33 PM
I do not understand something, since it was not mentioned in the article, and I could not find a followup that explained it.

Was he actually arrested and taken into custody in New Jersey? Or did a New Jersey LEO travel into PA and arrest him?

If the latter, I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall at an extradition hearing. "You want to do what??"

KeeFus
02-21-2016, 03:39 PM
I do not understand something, since it was not mentioned in the article, and I could not find a followup that explained it.

Was he actually arrested and taken into custody in New Jersey? Or did a New Jersey LEO travel into PA and arrest him?

If the latter, I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall at an extradition hearing. "You want to do what??"

They let him go on the scene then a few days later called him to come back so they could charge him.

BehindBlueI's
02-21-2016, 04:00 PM
Or did a New Jersey LEO travel into PA and arrest him?

If you want someone arrested who's out of your jurisdiction, you get a warrant and arrange service with the locals or with the Marshals. When I'm out of state, I have no arrest authority outside of whatever citizen's arrest authority everyone has. Other than a very few exceptions like concurrent jurisdiction, the person will be arrested by the local jurisdiction (sheriff's dept, for example) on the warrant, and then extradited back to your jurisdiction. Sometimes if a guy has been really naughty, there's a queue as multiple jurisdictions will want to chat with him.

HCM
02-21-2016, 04:10 PM
They let him go on the scene then a few days later called him to come back so they could charge him.

My guess would be they called him to come pick up his gun and arrested him when he showed up.

TGS
02-21-2016, 06:03 PM
In NJ, it is a felony to have a firearm in your possession unless under an exception. Those exceptions include being on (or traveling between) your property or place of business, range, hunting, or an FFL.

As mentioned, he's not covered under LEOSA as he doesn't meet the definition of a LEO. Some correctional officers do, most don't. Federal BOP qualifies, I think both NY and NJ state corrections officers also qualify.

While the entire thing stinks, the entire issue is actually very cut and dry. Also, stating they charged an out-of-state LEO is acutely misleading. I do hope he gets a pardon.


NJ is a world of its own for sure. But, having said that, I fly into and out of Newark several times a year on Colt business and carry on LEOSA (sans hollowpoint ammo, of course). I haven't had the first bit of a problem and don't even get a reaction when I declare firearms at check in there.

LEOSA was amended to specifically include ammunition. If you're afraid that isn't strong enough, then you shouldn't be carrying a gun in NJ either since you're relying on the same law to allow you to do such.

Wayne Dobbs
02-21-2016, 06:18 PM
LEOSA was amended to specifically include ammunition. If you're afraid that isn't strong enough, then you shouldn't be carrying a gun in NJ either since you're relying on the same law to allow you to do such.

I know it was amended to include ammo, but their Attorney General has rendered opinions since that hollowpoint ammo is still verboten in the Reich of NJ under LEOSA. I don't want to be a test case there.

Dagga Boy
02-21-2016, 06:29 PM
LEOSA was amended to specifically include ammunition. If you're afraid that isn't strong enough, then you shouldn't be carrying a gun in NJ either since you're relying on the same law to allow you to do such.

Dude, stop with your super salty LE status. As some of us who have been traveling to other states as polices officers for decades (in Wayne's case that would be in neighborhood of over three decades, including a multi year stint in the middle East), we have concluded some things are not worth pushing. I just flew to San Francisco, for SFPD specifically to provide training for their officers. I was told specifically, don't bring Federal Hollowpoints....which is the ammunition issued by my former agency, and the stuff in my guns is agency issued ammunition. I carried Black Hills. I was told the DA could care less about LEOSA and they would likely make my life hell over Federal HST if I got into a shooting there. In California, I could actually legal carry my old issue mags....I don't. This has nothing to do with a fear of the law being strong enough, this is a case of not trusting local municipalities to give a flying crap about Federal Law. This is simple...when traveling to a sanctuary city, do you really want to depend of their respect of the letter of Federal Law? Some of these are issues of later additions to LEOSA. This is simple...don't make issues that do not need to be. Your run of the mill average LEO, even a non gun person knows out of jurisdiction and retired LEO's can carry, most don't know about nuances. Most NJ cops of any jurisdiction know about their hollow point law. I would venture, most don't know about how it applies to LEOSA.

TGS
02-21-2016, 06:33 PM
I know it was amended to include ammo, but their Attorney General has rendered opinions since that hollowpoint ammo is still verboten in the Reich of NJ under LEOSA. I don't want to be a test case there.

I guess I have more faith in federal preemption as granted by Article VI of the US Constitution than some jackwad's personal opinion on what he can charge people with.

Not that I think spending a night in jail and going through trial would be a cheerful experience, but I'd be pretty comfortable with the chances of me winning that fight and coming out ahead.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-21-2016, 06:34 PM
Dude, stop with your super salty LE status. As some of us who have been traveling to other states as polices officers for decades (in Wayne's case that would be in neighborhood of over three decades, including a multi year stint in the middle East), we have concluded some things are not worth pushing. I just flew to San Francisco, for SFPD specifically to provide training for their officers. I was told specifically, don't bring Federal Hollowpoints....which is the ammunition issued by my former agency, and the stuff in my guns is agency issued ammunition. I carried Black Hills. I was told the DA could care less about LEOSA and they would likely make my life hell over Federal HST if I got into a shooting there. In California, I could actually legal carry my old issue mags....I don't. This has nothing to do with a fear of the law being strong enough, this is a case of not trusting local municipalities to give a flying crap about Federal Law. This is simple...when traveling to a sanctuary city, do you really want to depend of their respect of the letter of Federal Law? Some of these are issues of later additions to LEOSA. This is simple...don't make issues that do not need to be. Your run of the mill average LEO, even a non gun person knows out of jurisdiction and retired LEO's can carry, most don't know about nuances. Most NJ cops of any jurisdiction know about their hollow point law. I would venture, most don't know about how it applies to LEOSA.

It costs less to listen to nyeti than it does to pay the lawyers to fix the problem.

(Not that I'm against attorney employment, mind you...I'm just saying you don't HAVE to be the guy writing the check. Unless you want to be...)

TGS
02-21-2016, 06:39 PM
It costs less to listen to nyeti than it does to pay the lawyers to fix the problem.

(Not that I'm against attorney employment, mind you...I'm just saying you don't HAVE to be the guy writing the check. Unless you want to be...)

Well, how comfortable would you be in winning that fight?

I can't imagine the AG's remarks are anything but verbal bullying. He can't actually think it would ever fly enough to actually have the state bring someone to trial.

SLG
02-21-2016, 06:45 PM
Well, how comfortable would you be in winning that fight?

I can't imagine the AG's remarks are anything but verbal bullying. He can't actually think it would ever fly enough to actually have the state bring someone to trial.

I am lucky that as of now, I can thumb my nose at those idiots in those other states. Once I retire, Nyeti and Wayne definitely have the right take on it. None of us want to spend 5 minutes in a cell to win a fight down the road. Having put a lot of people behind bars, it is the last place I want to be, for any reason.

TGS
02-21-2016, 06:49 PM
I am lucky that as of now, I can thumb my nose at those idiots in those other states. Once I retire, Nyeti and Wayne definitely have the right take on it. None of us want to spend 5 minutes in a cell to win a fight down the road. Having put a lot of people behind bars, it is the last place I want to be, for any reason.

I get that, I really do.

I just don't understand the fear when the law is clearly established. I'm going to do what LL hates most and draw some correlation here.....but if Herr Attorney General said he was going to jail anyone who speaks out against the regime, would we also not speak out against the regime for fear of being prosecuted when 1) the law is clearly on our side, and 2) case law thus far on the issue has been overwhelmingly in the favor of the officer, re: a broad interpretation of the statute? Just because the AG said he didn't care about written law and was going to charge people anyway, carrying within the letter of the law doesn't come off as reckless, to me.

I'm not trying to be super salty LE here, either. I think that's a weak sauce low-blow thrown out here at me simply for having an opinion.

Dagga Boy
02-21-2016, 06:59 PM
I am lucky that as of now, I can thumb my nose at those idiots in those other states. Once I retire, Nyeti and Wayne definitely have the right take on it. None of us want to spend 5 minutes in a cell to win a fight down the road. Having put a lot of people behind bars, it is the last place I want to be, for any reason.

Yeah, the whole "retirement" thing will change outlook. Like...it's your wallet paying. When I was working, traveling on work related stuff, I really didn't give a care about much. When your badge has a plaque under it with an end date....stuff changes. Also, Wayne and I travel a lot, are in contact with a ton of the kind of cops who will be responding to any call of you getting into an incident, and we generally speak their language. We still find "that guy". Every agency has one. With my luck, I will get both that guy, and his cousin the DA. Some day, some may also find that the same places that dislike federal law...don't have a lot of love for federal law enforcement, especially of the retired type where nobody is coming to rescue you.
As Mitchell esq. noted, I avoid interaction with lawyers. I have worked extensively with the best guys in the world at what they do. The guys I have in my phone in Texas are literally the best money can buy. I am cheap, I don't want to ever have to waste revolver money and my 401k to make a point where the option may piss me off, but is not worth the revolvers and the 401k to fight.
Also, as someone who doesn't "camp", any time in custody is not my idea of a good idea. Especially, if the issue is a Black Hills 230 gr. HP versus a Federal 230 gr. +p HST hollowpoint.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-21-2016, 07:02 PM
Well, how comfortable would you be in winning that fight?

I can't imagine the AG's remarks are anything but verbal bullying. He can't actually think it would ever fly enough to actually have the state bring someone to trial.

Question presented:

How confident would I be in winning a case for a client with the client being an active duty law enforcement officer ("LEO") as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(c) with identification as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(d) carrying a firearm as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(e) (Ammunition is included in this definition, "(2) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act..." under 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(e)(2)) arrested for a violation of a local law which has been preempted pursuant to 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(a)?

Absent anything else? I'd be very confident.

However, $10,000 retainer minimum & a contingency fee agreement (percentage to be negotiated but because of the initial retainer, I'm not unreasonable...) because it's going to take me some time to address the underlying situation which resulted in the arrest (nothing is ever cut and dry...their is always a poop in the punch-bowl that will end up in your glass.) and then draft the federal 18 U.S.C.A. § 1983 action for an unlawful arrest.

Municipalities willing to make this kind of an arrest are going to fight this kind of thing, and you only get to do a 18 U.S.C.A. § 1983 case if you resolve the underlying criminal case in a manner which is termed a favorable disposition (either a not guilty, dismissal before trial or a nolle which is not the result of any bargaining) so it is a not insubstantial amount of work.

Would it be fun? Hell yes.

For me.

For you? What is your definition of fun?

Civil rights litigation is not easy. It is time consuming and expensive before we get to the $$ part.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-21-2016, 07:09 PM
Also, as someone who doesn't "camp", any time in custody is not my idea of a good idea. Especially, if the issue is a Black Hills 230 gr. HP versus a Federal 230 gr. +p HST hollowpoint.

I love you in a manly, hammer fired H&K way.

I actually address that kind of thing my my Self Defense & the Law lecture and tell people that you can do what you want with handloads, gun modifications that are not supported by the manufacturer or the common course of practice in the firearms industry - but every second I need to address that kind of thing in court (or prep for court) costs you money.

So in the end...

I bill (no, I don't get it as take home...) $250/hour.

Every six minutes I think about your case costs about $40.

You make the call.

TGS
02-21-2016, 07:13 PM
I love you in a manly, hammer fired H&K way.

I actually address that kind of thing my my Self Defense & the Law lecture and tell people that you can do what you want with handloads, gun modifications that are not supported by the manufacturer or the common course of practice in the firearms industry - but every second I need to address that kind of thing in court (or prep for court) costs you money.

So in the end...

I bill (no, I don't get it as take home...) $250/hour.

Every six minutes I think about your case costs about $40.

You make the call.

Just curious........how much money do you think you'd be able to rape the state of NJ for if they arrested a LEO carrying hollow points? With that given amount in mind, would you take the case without money up front given the certainty of getting a big cash out at the end? How's that work?

SLG
02-21-2016, 07:19 PM
I get that, I really do.

I just don't understand the fear when the law is clearly established. I'm going to do what LL hates most and draw some correlation here.....but if Herr Attorney General said he was going to jail anyone who speaks out against the regime, would we also not speak out against the regime for fear of being prosecuted when 1) the law is clearly on our side, and 2) case law thus far on the issue has been overwhelmingly in the favor of the officer, re: a broad interpretation of the statute? Just because the AG said he didn't care about written law and was going to charge people anyway, carrying within the letter of the law doesn't come off as reckless, to me.

I'm not trying to be super salty LE here, either. I think that's a weak sauce low-blow thrown out here at me simply for having an opinion.

As I said, it's not fear of losing its unwillingness to be arrested over it. Your priorities and willingness to engage the system may be different from mine.

TheRoland
02-21-2016, 07:25 PM
Just curious........how much money do you think you'd be able to rape the state of NJ for if they arrested a LEO carrying hollow points? With that given amount in mind, would you take the case without money up front given the certainty of getting a big cash out at the end? How's that work?

I'm not a lawyer, and Mitchell is welcome to tell me off, but I think the gulf between "would be able to resolve the criminal case against you" and "would ever see a dime in a civil rights action" is really huge. There's a ton of things that can go wrong in the years that it'd take to get to that stage and civil rights actions aren't easy.

TGS
02-21-2016, 07:32 PM
As I said, it's not fear of losing its unwillingness to be arrested over it. Your priorities and willingness to engage the system may be different from mine.

Nah, I don't think they are. I don't really care for jails. Like I started on earlier, I think the AG is just blowing hot air. 1) It's a pretty sure loss on the state's end...there's simply no point. 2) Marty Small v NJ stated that, "carelessness, unreasonable conduct or even noncompliance with substantive law" isn't enough to establish malice or willful misconduct, meaning the AG and prosecutors would still get absolute immunity...but even still, the state itself would be paying out a boat load of money.

Given that, it just doesn't seem reasonable that any rational actor, no matter how anti-gun they are, would actually try to prosecute a cop on carrying hollowpoints under LEOSA. There's just no reason to; it can't possibly benefit the AG in any way.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-21-2016, 07:37 PM
Just curious........how much money do you think you'd be able to rape the state of NJ for if they arrested a LEO carrying hollow points? With that given amount in mind, would you take the case without money up front given the certainty of getting a big cash out at the end? How's that work?

The issue is that NJ simply has more money and lawyers than you do. When you fight a Civil Rights case the government appeals unfavorable decisions. Appeals cost money. Quite a bit. Yes, there is an attorney fee award provision, but on average, civil rights cases are multi year cases with a LOT of hours.

That means before we get to the $$ happy stuff we have to:

1) Resolve the underlying situation leading to the arrest favorably. (I assume you would have a criminal lawyer handling that - and that costs $$ too.)

You have to achieve a termination of the case which the court defines as favorable and expect the city/state to fight hard on that one to cut off your 1983 claim. "A criminal proceeding terminates in favor of the plaintiff only when its 'final disposition is such as to indicate the accused is not guilty.'” Singleton v. City of New York, 632 F.2d 185, 193 (2d Cir.1980).

So expect to be offered a program which if successfully completed results in a bargained for dismissal (no 1983 claim because you made a deal to get out of the case, and we can't have people availing themselves of programs to get out of cases and then suing the police...) or have a prosecutor say, "OK. Try the case. Let's pick dates for a jury trial..."

2) Win the civil rights case and all appeals.
3) Expend a lot of time and resources (depositions/discovery) doing #1 & #2.

And that means unless the case is super clean the possibility of recovery is in at least some doubt...and like any fight, you need ammo for the fight.

That means money.

Personal injury firms take cases without up front money because the moment a client walks in with a slip & fall/car accident/worker's comp case they know someone is going to write a check so it doesn't matter if the client has money.

Civil rights is a whole different ball game and likely no - my we would not accept a case without a retainer under most circumstances. I would not say never...but in most cases, we would need an up front sum to get the ball rolling.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-21-2016, 07:57 PM
I just want to take a moment to apologize if I am coming off like a know it all dick, TGS.

It wasn't my intention to jump on you, throw cases around like I know better or in any way attack you.

I take a very conservative point of view on these things and I have a firm bias toward keeping out of trouble as opposed to getting out of trouble.

TGS
02-21-2016, 07:58 PM
I just want to take a moment to apologize if I am coming off like a know it all dick, TGS.

It wasn't my intention to jump on you, throw cases around like I know better or in any way attack you.

I take a very conservative point of view on these things and I have a firm bias toward keeping out of trouble as opposed to getting out of trouble.

Absolutely not, dude. I always love when you post shit. I love the comedic value you weave into the learning points, as well.

HCM
02-21-2016, 08:49 PM
Nah, I don't think they are. I don't really care for jails. Like I started on earlier, I think the AG is just blowing hot air. 1) It's a pretty sure loss on the state's end...there's simply no point. 2) Marty Small v NJ stated that, "carelessness, unreasonable conduct or even noncompliance with substantive law" isn't enough to establish malice or willful misconduct, meaning the AG and prosecutors would still get absolute immunity...but even still, the state itself would be paying out a boat load of money.

Given that, it just doesn't seem reasonable that any rational actor, no matter how anti-gun they are, would actually try to prosecute a cop on carrying hollowpoints under LEOSA. There's just no reason to; it can't possibly benefit the AG in any way.

Here's another fun fact for you: If you are arrested, even wrongfully, you will most likely be placed on administrative leave or at least limited administrative duties pending the outcome of the criminal case and the investigation by your agency's Office of Professional Responsibility or equivalent (OIG etc.). In most agencies, you will not be eligible for LEAP wile on Admin status so that is a 25% financial hit.

Re: OPR

A few years ago, one of my partners was involved in a shooting. He shot and wounded a suspect who had just shot and killed someone as part of a drug rip-off. Both the murder and the shooting occurred in a public place with multiple witnesses and on surveillance video. 100% legit shoot. The State investigative agency which handles LE shootings in that state (not TX) completed their investigation in three weeks and within another three weeks, he was no-billed by the Grand Jury. He even received an award from a national LE organization you would be familiar with. Despite all this, it took our OPR EIGHTEEN MONTHS to officially clear him.

SLG
02-21-2016, 08:56 PM
"...I have a Firm bias...

FIFY
:-)

As do all good Firms, btw.

TGS
02-21-2016, 09:12 PM
Here's another fun fact for you: If you are arrested, even wrongfully, you will most likely be placed on administrative leave or at least limited administrative duties pending the outcome of the criminal case and the investigation by your agency's Office of Professional Responsibility or equivalent (OIG etc.). In most agencies, you will not be eligible for LEAP wile on Admin status so that is a 25% financial hit.

Re: OPR

A few years ago, one of my partners was involved in a shooting. He shot and wounded a suspect who had just shot and killed someone as part of a drug rip-off. Both the murder and the shooting occurred in a public place with multiple witnesses and on surveillance video. 100% legit shoot. The State investigative agency which handles LE shootings in that state (not TX) completed their investigation in three weeks and within another three weeks, he was no-billed by the Grand Jury. He even received an award from a national LE organization you would be familiar with. Despite all this, it took our OPR EIGHTEEN MONTHS to officially clear him.

Yeah, that I'm familiar with. We've got at least one who is still without badge and gun for the last couple years due to an OIS, but his criminal case(s) has been dragging through multiple trials. Extra tough for us, given we have an up-or-out military style promotion system; we can't really sit at grade for our entire career. So if you sit on your hands for a couple years with legal/admin trouble, the lack of relevant, progressive job responsibilities can really impact your ability to make the next grade before you time out....that's not even considering the fallout from whatever your issue was and how the evaluators from our mother agency view the issue through their non-LE lens.

ST911
02-21-2016, 09:37 PM
Of the folks having problems with LE while carrying under LEOSA, how many disclosed their status vs were otherwise discovered? I seem to recall a higher number of former than latter.

olstyn
02-21-2016, 10:11 PM
how many disclosed their status vs were otherwise discovered?

How many of those incidents occurred in states where there is a legal requirement to inform officers you interact with that you're carrying? Regarding the case that started this thread, does NJ have a "duty to inform" on the books? It would be somewhat ironic if an attempt to comply with local law is what got him into this mess. (Coupled with a mistaken belief that he was covered by LEOSA, of course.)

SLG
02-21-2016, 10:29 PM
How many of those incidents occurred in states where there is a legal requirement to inform officers you interact with that you're carrying? Regarding the case that started this thread, does NJ have a "duty to inform" on the books? It would be somewhat ironic if an attempt to comply with local law is what got him into this mess. (Coupled with a mistaken belief that he was covered by LEOSA, of course.)

I have to admit, I've never heard of any state requirement that an LEO must inform.

Jim Watson
02-22-2016, 12:45 AM
I believe I can deal with the problem by avoiding New Jersey and other repressive regimes.
My agency sent me to Picatinny Arsenal several times in the 1990s and I don't remember anything that I want to go back for.

olstyn
02-22-2016, 01:02 AM
I have to admit, I've never heard of any state requirement that an LEO must inform.

I was just thinking in terms of regulations regarding carry permits. Some states require you to inform; it doesn't seem insane to think that that requirement might extend to visiting LEOs carrying under LEOSA. Of course, I'm just speculating, and I'm neither a lawyer nor an LEO, so my speculation is worth about what you paid for it.

BehindBlueI's
02-22-2016, 01:16 AM
I have to admit, I've never heard of any state requirement that an LEO must inform.

Interesting point. Ohio is the only place I go routinely that is a must inform state, but the law says it's a duty of a licensee, not a duty of a LEO.

mark7
02-22-2016, 07:51 AM
FWIW this is supposedly from a LEO close to the situation from another forum:


Wondering how this started?

First, the gun was not on him- under the seat of the car. They get hit by a DWI and police come. He had a FOP oval medallion in his window- big one- and cop asked him if he was carrying. He said yes, under the seat. Cop asked for his CO ID. Didn’t have- just pointed to the prison parking permit with his name and handed over driver’s license and PA CCW. He was hurt so cop said they would secure such, along with other personal property since he was going in an ambulance and to come to station with is work ID. He tells cop it will be a few days to get back with no car. Cop says no problem and vouchers everything and drops off vouchers for all property at the hospital.

Guy shows up at the station on two days later, shows paperwork and CO ID and leaves with his all his property and gun. Final report is sent to the Gloucester County Prosecutors Office for the DWI charges. Prosecutor see notes of a voucher for gun, thought it was perps and inquires with defense counsel and police. Defense counsel finds out he is not covered under LEOSA and tells prosecutor and tries to get deal for his client. Prosecutor does some homework, see its an issue too, drafts complaint and calls original officer to arrange arrest. He goes to brass/union- nothing they can do- he calls guy and he voluntarily surrenders.

Let’s be clear- PA Corrections Officers lack the power of arrest and thus aren't covered under H.R. 218, which would be why he has a carry permit! The CO state union in PA has made it clear to all members they are not covered. And he left his old “police officer” job without meeting the qualifications of LEOSA. LEOSA is not even an issue here. That is why he has a CCW permit! He knows that and his attorney conceded to such.

Now they want a blind eye turned to NJ law because of where he works and what he does. Anyone who thinks that is a possibility in ANY state, in 2016, with the current temperament of the anti-police attitude under this President is in need of a psych exam! Everyone knows NJ law state, especially those in PA and NY!

He also screwed himself because he now claims in the media and in public he forgot and didn't even know it was in his car, yet tells the cop he is carrying and where to find it. The courts are going to use that he did know it was there, as he gave it up immediately. They are also going to hit him with the why he has a CCW if he thought you were covered under LEOSA? He should have shut up and stayed quiet!

gtmtnbiker98
02-22-2016, 08:04 AM
I know it was amended to include ammo, but their Attorney General has rendered opinions since that hollowpoint ammo is still verboten in the Reich of NJ under LEOSA. I don't want to be a test case there.Don't worry, I still caution those I qualify annually regarding LEOSA and magazine and ammo issues, specifically New Jersey. I've had the federal update brought to my attention in other threads, but with New Jersey, I tell them no hollow points. Hell, I even advise them to not carry in Jersey or DC.

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 08:56 AM
One of the things experience gets you and a lot of time actually seeing how government and politicians work. Government doesn't lose....even if they lose. They are playing with tax payer dollars and can drag things out as long as they want. Even when it looks like they are going to lose in the bitter end after a multi year process, they will do a back door settlement with your money and often part of that is admitting no wrong. As I have said, when you are dealing with sanctuary cities and states, they care not about federal law, do not like cops, do not like guns and generally hate everything we believe in.

A good example would be the recent incident with the Marine attacked in a McDonalds. That could easily turn into a shooting. I can already see the news headlines: Unarmed youths killed with deadly hollow point bullets. A long editorial about an obscure federal law that allows evil police to bring guns into their jurisdictions and then have them using deadly hollowpoint bullets that are normally banned for the good of the children.
The issue will usually not arise with any sort of LE or other contact. The issue is going to arise if you are involved in a shooting or other incident. I have been blessed that I have gotten through multiple shootings without attorney's by being very right, very in-policy, and would hope if anything ever happens again in my life I will also be "very right". If that is the case, I don't want a federal vs. city or state law case aired out in the middle of my use of lethal force case.
I find it funny that TGS finds it to be a weak sauce low blow to bring up his salty boot status when the guys he is questioning are folks who have looked into the issues, talked extensively to the local firearms guys at the PD's where we are at, and when those guys are saying "gun is fine, don't being high caps or banned ammo because our prosecutors would love to screw you", we should ignore them. Wayne is likely the most knowledgeable guy on this board about traveling in retired status to places that hate guns and cops. He does it successfully and without issue because he takes care of making contacts to get the "real" sit rep of what is going on on the ground, and what the actual climate is. To essentially call him a pussy and not worthy of carrying a gun because he (and others like myself) will not push the locals on their laws and tread very lightly because we do not want to be test cases.

Hambo
02-22-2016, 09:20 AM
Question presented:

How confident would I be in winning a case for a client with the client being an active duty law enforcement officer ("LEO") as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(c) with identification as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(d) carrying a firearm as defined by 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(e) (Ammunition is included in this definition, "(2) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act..." under 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(e)(2)) arrested for a violation of a local law which has been preempted pursuant to 18 U.S.C.A. § 926B(a)?


Two more points on this:

1- Mitchell, Esq's rates are very reasonable. He has said that you would want a criminal lawyer handling the criminal charge, and a competent, reasonably priced criminal attorney will also as for $10K up front and at least $250/hour.

2-Not addressed in this mess is that if you are employed as an LEO and get arrested in another state on a felony charge, your employer is going to take action. So while you're paying your bond, your criminal attorney, and your civil rights attorney, you'll be doing it while suspended at least. If your department fires you for off duty conduct, you can then, you can fight that case as well.

Mitchell, Esq. gave great advice for free. Do as Nyeti does and spend the money on something you enjoy.

TAZ
02-22-2016, 11:20 AM
The assgravy of the Union strikes again. What are the rules in NJ about proper transport of a firearm. Is there me legal way for a citizen of the USA to properly transport a sidearm into and out of that shithole? Maybe the trooper can remember how he gun was stored at trial.

psalms144.1
02-22-2016, 11:36 AM
Not to pile on, but, I'll pile on anyway. I'm posted in NY, but my "office" is in NJ. I'm the primary FI for our Squad (NY, NJ, PA), and our only "free access" range is at the main office in NJ. As such, I spend a lot of time in NJ training folks, and have had the opportunity to talk to a lot of NJ State/Local LEOs on a variety of issues. I know that the MAJORITY of those LEOs are of the opinion that their state laws are hosed up like Hogan's Goat when it comes to LE and firearms, but the OVERWHELMING majority of them have advised that off duty agents NOT have JHP on them. One State officer went as far as opining that my fellow federal agents don't have authority to be armed off duty at all.

Yes, it's that bad.

As Nyeti has mentioned, I'd MUCH rather NOT be the test case here. My oldest daughter lives with her Aunt in NJ, and I don't go visit them - I pay for her to take the train out to see me. It's that bad, from my perspective.

Having said all that, I think this CO is screwed, not covered under LEOSA, "rolled the dice" and got Snake Eyes. I hope his attorney can get him pled down to a misdemeanor.

Drang
02-22-2016, 02:31 PM
Do I get this right? The CO was hit by a drunk driver, and the defense cut a deal with the prostituter to go easy on the drunk and hard on the CO?

HCM
02-22-2016, 02:39 PM
2-Not addressed in this mess is that if you are employed as an LEO and get arrested in another state on a felony charge, your employer is going to take action. So while you're paying your bond, your criminal attorney, and your civil rights attorney, you'll be doing it while suspended at least. If your department fires you for off duty conduct, you can then, you can fight that case as well.

Addressed in Post 37.

For fed agencies, they will likely put you on admin leave or admin duty (no gun / badge/cred) till the criminal case is resolved but that normally means base pay only.

gtmtnbiker98
02-22-2016, 02:44 PM
The prison guard isn't a cop and not covered under LEOSA. His PA CCW/CHL is obviously not reciprical with the PRK of NJ. I fail to see the argument many are posing, including the NRA in their news piece.

KeeFus
02-22-2016, 02:49 PM
The CO is screwed because he does NOT have statutory powers of arrest in his jurisdiction. This is not a good case to test LEOSA simply because the CO is not even covered.

When reading LEOSA and how it applies, IF this were a LEO, how could they prosecute the LEO; especially if the LEO was carrying in accordance with LEOSA?

Granted, I do not want to be a test case but there is now case law from a few jurisdictions wherein the person carrying under LEOSA has been arrested and charged...they either were found not guilty or stuck a law suit onto the officers/agencies involved and they won. Specifically People v. Rodriguez (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtLEOSARulingPeoplevsRodriguez.PDF), Indictment No. 2917 (2006) from NY; People against Benjamin L. Booth, Jr., Indictment No. 2007-940 (2007) from NY; and another from California where a Coast Guardsman was charged but the charges were dropped and he won a $44,000.00 settlement for false arrest.

There are others but it would just seem like NJ is putting itself way out there by being dickish because New Jersey.

Drang
02-22-2016, 02:51 PM
There are others but it would just seem like NJ is putting itself way out there by being dickish because New Jersey.
This.

HCM
02-22-2016, 02:54 PM
The prison guard isn't a cop and not covered under LEOSA. His PA CCW/CHL is obviously not reciprical with the PRK of NJ. I fail to see the argument many are posing, including the NRA in their news piece.

It appears PA State CO's are not covered by LEOSA. Agreed it does not appear to be a good LEOSA case but still a Dickish move by the NJ Authorities.

Not sure how it is in OH but many other state and local CO's have arrest authority and are covered by LEOSA, hence the original question. Whether you want to consider them CO's or "Guards" they damn sure need to carry off duty as much as "real" cops.

Put another way, is the guy at the dump less of a garbage man than the guy driving a garbage truck?

Hambo
02-22-2016, 03:19 PM
Addressed in Post 37.

For fed agencies, they will likely put you on admin leave or admin duty (no gun / badge/cred) till the criminal case is resolved but that normally means base pay only.

Somehow I missed that. For states and municipalities the response will vary greatly. We had paid and unpaid administrative leave. An officer with felony criminal charges would have gotten unpaid leave until they could finish termination proceedings.

Le Français
02-22-2016, 03:24 PM
and then draft the federal 18 U.S.C.A. § 1983 action for an unlawful arrest.

Wouldn't that be 42 USC 1983?

HCM
02-22-2016, 03:26 PM
Somehow I missed that. For states and municipalities the response will vary greatly. We had paid and unpaid administrative leave. An officer with felony criminal charges would have gotten unpaid leave until they could finish termination proceedings.

10-4 . #37 was mostly for TGS. Unfortunately part of my job when I ran our Firearms program was securing the guns and badges of guys with pending "stuff".

SLG
02-22-2016, 03:29 PM
Sounds like the guy asked for what he got, screwy NJ politics aside.

Long before LEOSA, I carried hollowpoints on and off duty in NJ, and have ever since. I will continue to do so, regardless of what any one individual idiot out there might think. Once I retire, no hollow points for me in NJ.

HCM
02-22-2016, 03:34 PM
Sounds like the guy asked for what he got, screwy NJ politics aside.

Long before LEOSA, I carried hollowpoints on and off duty in NJ, and have ever since. I will continue to do so, regardless of what any one individual idiot out there might think. Once I retire, no hollow points for me in NJ.

Other than changing planes in Newark, there is no reason for me to go to NJ. Ever. I mean really, the Shore and Tailor's Ham -that's as good as it gets in NJ. There are beaches in free America.

SLG
02-22-2016, 03:48 PM
Other than changing planes in Newark, there is no reason for me to go to NJ. Ever. I mean really, the Shore and Tailor's Ham -that's as good as it gets in NJ. There are beaches in free America.

Well, I hate to be that guy, but NJ does have some of the best pizza around. Newark style pizza is its own variant, and is well worth a trip to jail;-)

deputyG23
02-22-2016, 05:07 PM
I took a cruise out of NYC in 2014 with some friends here in VA. We loaded up and drove to Calumet, NJ and stayed overnight before shuttling to the cruise terminal. I am full time active LE. Did I have firearms or ammo on board? Heck, no!
I shook the van down from top to bottom to ensure nothing firearms related was present.
I do not want to be another test case regarding LEOSA.
Once I retire, traveling is on the agenda, but NY and NJ will get few, if any, of my travel dollars.

Chuck Haggard
02-22-2016, 05:12 PM
When I had to go to NJ, not out of choice, regardless of pizza, I got ahold of the NJSP firearms unit and confirmed what ammo they considered legal for carry in NJ. This was before the update to LEOSA. Back then Critical Defense, Federal EFMJ and Cor Bon PowerBall were all considered to not be "hollow points". I was strongly advised that even off duty NJ LEOs were not allowed to have magazines larger than 15 round capacity on them.

I made the trip with my Glock 19 with standard mags, two mags of Federal 124gr +P EFMJs and a back-up magazine of NATO ball. My BUG was a S&W 638 loaded with WCs with the Speed Strips loaded with ball ammo. I also made sure I had two copies of the letter from the NJSP Commander with me.

Even with the JHP thing addressed by the LEOSA update, I'm not going to push the issue if I have to go back there. I felt rather well armed with what I had, even if I wasn't carrying my prefered ammo, and higher cap reloads.

rsa-otc
02-22-2016, 05:17 PM
The assgravy of the Union strikes again. What are the rules in NJ about proper transport of a firearm. Is there me legal way for a citizen of the USA to properly transport a sidearm into and out of that shithole? Maybe the trooper can remember how he gun was stored at trial.

To transport weapons without a permit (very rare mine is strictly limited to on duty for specific employment only) or when not covered by LEOSA, the weapon must be unloaded in the trunk, if a trunk is unavailable it must be wrapped or cased and the ammo in a separate case. The big kicker such transportation is only legal between your place of residence and gunstore; gunsmith; range; hunting fields ; new residence or place of business. Oh and don't forget the no stopping in between expect for reasonabley "necessary" stop. Which has morphed into case law that amounts to no stops are allowed.

Our state's firearms laws are in my opinion written ass backwards with regards to an enumerated constitutional right. Instead of being written so that you can own/transport etc firearms except for these very narrow restrictions, they are written such that you strictly can't except for these very narrow exceptions. NJ does not have a 2nd ammendment in its state constitution. With our current extremely liberal state Supreme Court nothing is going to change without out an ASS kicking from SCOTUS. With Scalia gone I am not holding my breath. The free stuff brigade owns the NJ Assembly and Senate so change legislatively is, slow to non existent. The last Attorney General while appointed by Cristie was little help. He has rendered several opions that has adversely effected the Armored Car industry as well as gun owners in this state. You see in Jersey there's the statue and then there's the administrative code in which the Attorney General fleshes out what the statue means. Sometimes things that are in the statue are left out of the admistrative code. For example by statue the State Police have 60 days to process a permit to carry, if they don't ask for an extension in writing the permit is deemed approved by the superintendent of the state police. The last, time I read through the administrative code I could not find it. Our permits take as long as 6 months and I have a renewal that is going on close to two years. Hopefully when the new AG takes over he will come down with more favorable interpretations.

My family has been involved in the firearms issues in NJ since the 1950's when my father a decorated veteran with 2 combat tours of Korea embarrassed the state by being written up in the papers as not being able to to work armed for the family company because he wasn't yet 21. They changed the law to 18 and it stayed that way until the rewrite in the early 80s. I testified in front of the Senate regarding hollow points around that same time.

In many ways I love NJ except for the firearms laws and taxes. What keeps me here at this point in my life is career and family. Oh ya the pizza is pretty good too.

OH as a side note many of the LEO's I rub shoulders with don't consider corrections officers law enforcement.

rsa-otc
02-22-2016, 05:31 PM
Chuck maybe being actual LEO you got more cooperation than I have from the firearms unit. While it was confirmed to me that the NJ ballistics unit does not consider those designs hollow point Ammunition I still couldn't get them to tell me point blank that they were legal under the statue. I was concerned since the statue not only covered hollow points but also dum dum rounds altered to "expand". I was referred to the AG's office who wouldn't give me an opinion as well. No one has been able to even get me a copy of the letter saying those rounds are not hollow points.

Now before anyone panics it's been pretty much established that in practice they are legal. Almost every retired officer in the state is carrying that ammo and I would believe that the new Gold Dot II would meet that standard as well. I just don't know of any letter or case law that confirms it.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-22-2016, 05:47 PM
I just don't know of any letter or case law that confirms it.

Exactly.

I would see about a FOI request for any and all communications, memorandum, policy statements and the like regarding this issue and see if that would help...but that's assuming they would be responsive and honest...

And even if they were, at whatever rate they would charge per page, get ready to write a $30K check.

Because hey, you wanted everything, right?

GardoneVT
02-22-2016, 05:47 PM
Can the title be amended? The individual being charged is not a LEO.

HCM
02-22-2016, 06:13 PM
Well, I hate to be that guy, but NJ does have some of the best pizza around. Newark style pizza is its own variant, and is well worth a trip to jail;-)

Umbertos on LI is the best !

But if you want NJ Pizza there is a place here in SA run by a family from Newark - they even make real Sicilian.

https://m.facebook.com/Florios-Pizza-120473217964539/

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 07:00 PM
Can the title be amended? The individual being charged is not a LEO.

Before we start getting all down on C.O.'s, how many are willing to do their job? While some of the biggest pieces of crap I have seen in LE were from various correctional agencies, some of the stand out best, toughest guys I ever worked with were from the same organizations. I spent a lot of time working with SSU from the Calif. department of Corrections. I worked with them often and the funniest thing I ever saw as a cop was while chasing a parolee was watching the guy we were chasing go froma dead run to literally skidding to a stop after hearing "SSU I'll shoot you in the back".

Much of this comes down to convuluted arrest powers. I guarantee the PA. CO has arrest powers, they are just very limited. I find it funny that we have folks from the some executive branches of government on LEOSA, Amtrack, IG offices, DOD, etc. All with fairly limited powers. I am of the opinion if we look at actual "need", I would say the folks who are policing thousands of convicted felons daily likely have a greater need than a person working out of the executive branch. I had numerous cases of threats against my family while working as a cop, I cannot imagine what many CO's face. I guarantee the guy in the original case has dealt with far more real criminals and legitimate threats than a volunteer special reserve from a glorified trailer park in New Mexico who has a LEOSA ID.

Hopefully, our glorious federal government can come up with a system similar to what is used for instant background checks. You register once, confirm all your information in an account and it is updated annually with an automatic background check and confirmation of qualification. Any LEO can check your status and it is very clear. Of course, its 2016 and having something like that is way to efficient for the Feds.

SLG
02-22-2016, 07:08 PM
Just to clarify, I said he got what he deserved based on how he handled things, not on his status as a CO. I agree, they should fall under LEOSA for these purposes. Even so, it sounds like the arresting officer did what he could to avoid arresting him.

GardoneVT
02-22-2016, 07:16 PM
Before we start getting all down on C.O.'s, how many are willing to do their job? While some of the biggest pieces of crap I have seen in LE were from various correctional agencies, some of the stand out best, toughest guys I ever worked with were from the same organizations. I spent a lot of time working with SSU from the Calif. department of Corrections. I worked with them often and the funniest thing I ever saw as a cop was while chasing a parolee was watching the guy we were chasing go froma dead run to literally skidding to a stop after hearing "SSU I'll shoot you in the back".

Much of this comes down to convuluted arrest powers. I guarantee the PA. CO has arrest powers, they are just very limited. I find it funny that we have folks from the some executive branches of government on LEOSA, Amtrack, IG offices, DOD, etc. All with fairly limited powers. I am of the opinion if we look at actual "need", I would say the folks who are policing thousands of convicted felons daily likely have a greater need than a person working out of the executive branch. I had numerous cases of threats against my family while working as a cop, I cannot imagine what many CO's face. I guarantee the guy in the original case has dealt with far more real criminals and legitimate threats than a volunteer special reserve from a glorified trailer park in New Mexico who has a LEOSA ID.

Hopefully, our glorious federal government can come up with a system similar to what is used for instant background checks. You register once, confirm all your information in an account and it is updated annually with an automatic background check and confirmation of qualification. Any LEO can check your status and it is very clear. Of course, its 2016 and having something like that is way to efficient for the Feds.

I don't disagree, and by no means am I saying he's not a LEO in terms of job status, nor am I slinging mud at COs.

However, in the strict confines of this particular subject matter, the affected individual wasn't titled as a LEO under PA law and was in fact using his CCW permit, thus the charges.

Insofar as the convoluted mess of regs, indeed I've found it weird that full time Military Police didn't qualify for LEOSA, but part time local officers with arrest powers were.

SLG
02-22-2016, 07:19 PM
Insofar as the convoluted mess of regs, indeed I've found it weird that full time Military Police didn't qualify for LEOSA, but part time local officers with arrest powers were.

I'm certainly not an expert, but it was my understanding that MP time counted.

HCM
02-22-2016, 07:23 PM
Insofar as the convoluted mess of regs, indeed I've found it weird that full time Military Police didn't qualify for LEOSA, but part time local officers with arrest powers were.

A fair amount of the case law on LEOSA has come about determining if members of the Coast Guard qualify under LEOSA. Which they do if they meet certain requirements.

KeeFus
02-22-2016, 07:35 PM
I'm certainly not an expert, but it was my understanding that MP time counted.

From my reading it does...the 2013 amendment to LEOSA added them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act

HCM
02-22-2016, 07:40 PM
OH as a side note many of the LEO's I rub shoulders with don't consider corrections officers law enforcement.

Like probation and parole officers, Much of this is regional / locality dependent.

As Nyeti discussed, in CA State CO's and Parole Agents are full Peace Officers with Arrest Authority. During my Sex Offender Task Force days, the State Parole Agents were a great resource and also were good to go in the field. Most were either CO's who promoted or Police Officer's and Deputies who left small local agencies for better pay with the state.

State Parole in Texas, for example, while helpful and cooperative, has a completely different culture and are far more limited in their powers and activities.

In my local area, many of the Sheriff's Detention Officers at the jail are fully certified as Deputies with arrest authority, though it is mostly so they can work off duty LEO jobs.

TGS
02-22-2016, 07:45 PM
One of the things experience gets you and a lot of time actually seeing how government and politicians work. Government doesn't lose....even if they lose. They are playing with tax payer dollars and can drag things out as long as they want. Even when it looks like they are going to lose in the bitter end after a multi year process, they will do a back door settlement with your money and often part of that is admitting no wrong. As I have said, when you are dealing with sanctuary cities and states, they care not about federal law, do not like cops, do not like guns and generally hate everything we believe in.

A good example would be the recent incident with the Marine attacked in a McDonalds. That could easily turn into a shooting. I can already see the news headlines: Unarmed youths killed with deadly hollow point bullets. A long editorial about an obscure federal law that allows evil police to bring guns into their jurisdictions and then have them using deadly hollowpoint bullets that are normally banned for the good of the children.
The issue will usually not arise with any sort of LE or other contact. The issue is going to arise if you are involved in a shooting or other incident. I have been blessed that I have gotten through multiple shootings without attorney's by being very right, very in-policy, and would hope if anything ever happens again in my life I will also be "very right". If that is the case, I don't want a federal vs. city or state law case aired out in the middle of my use of lethal force case.
I find it funny that TGS finds it to be a weak sauce low blow to bring up his salty boot status when the guys he is questioning are folks who have looked into the issues, talked extensively to the local firearms guys at the PD's where we are at, and when those guys are saying "gun is fine, don't being high caps or banned ammo because our prosecutors would love to screw you", we should ignore them. Wayne is likely the most knowledgeable guy on this board about traveling in retired status to places that hate guns and cops. He does it successfully and without issue because he takes care of making contacts to get the "real" sit rep of what is going on on the ground, and what the actual climate is. To essentially call him a pussy and not worthy of carrying a gun because he (and others like myself) will not push the locals on their laws and tread very lightly because we do not want to be test cases.

Dude, shut the fuck up. I get that you have a problem with me, you always have going back years on HKPRO, but I never insinuated that Wayne is a pussy or that he is not worthy of carrying a gun. I don't know where you came up with this, but you're completely out of line with your accusations.

rsa-otc
02-22-2016, 07:46 PM
Before we start getting all down on C.O.'s, how many are willing to do their job? While some of the biggest pieces of crap I have seen in LE were from various correctional agencies, some of the stand out best, toughest guys I ever worked with were from the same organizations. I spent a lot of time working with SSU from the Calif. department of Corrections. I worked with them often and the funniest thing I ever saw as a cop was while chasing a parolee was watching the guy we were chasing go froma dead run to literally skidding to a stop after hearing "SSU I'll shoot you in the back".

Much of this comes down to convuluted arrest powers. I guarantee the PA. CO has arrest powers, they are just very limited. I find it funny that we have folks from the some executive branches of government on LEOSA, Amtrack, IG offices, DOD, etc. All with fairly limited powers. I am of the opinion if we look at actual "need", I would say the folks who are policing thousands of convicted felons daily likely have a greater need than a person working out of the executive branch. I had numerous cases of threats against my family while working as a cop, I cannot imagine what many CO's face. I guarantee the guy in the original case has dealt with far more real criminals and legitimate threats than a volunteer special reserve from a glorified trailer park in New Mexico who has a LEOSA ID.

Hopefully, our glorious federal government can come up with a system similar to what is used for instant background checks. You register once, confirm all your information in an account and it is updated annually with an automatic background check and confirmation of qualification. Any LEO can check your status and it is very clear. Of course, its 2016 and having something like that is way to efficient for the Feds.

I agree with Nyeti. Co's probably have as much to fear or more than many of the folks who legally qualify for LEOSA. My first partner after my stint with Brinks was retired from the Trenton State prison, NJ's bad boy high security prison. On our first trip out I got to see the scars of where he was stabed with a pencil and the pencil broken off on purpose. Or that he pulled out his bridge showing me where they knocked out most of his top teeth. Of course there were the stories of inmates friends on the outside coming looking for some payback for their inmate buddy.

I think they really need to expand the statue to cover Co's.

This is absurd that NJ pushed this. I have a guy working for me who retired from Rikers in NY who qualified for and got his NJ retired LEO carry permit.

El Cid
02-22-2016, 07:52 PM
We all know NJ is more fucked up than a football bat. But maybe the only thing left for us in the trenches is to make sure we don't cut any breaks to NJ prosecutors when encountered professionally in our jurisdictions.

rsa-otc
02-22-2016, 07:53 PM
Even so, it sounds like the arresting officer did what he could to avoid arresting him.

I know plenty of rank and file state and local officers who have done or would do the same. It's usually upper management (prosecutors and politically motivated senior leadership) who push this stuff looking to pad their arrest or conviction stats.

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 07:53 PM
Dude, shut the fuck up. I get that you have a problem with me, you always have going back years on HKPRO, but I never insinuated that Wayne is a pussy or that he is not worthy of carrying a gun. I don't know where you came up with this, but you're completely out of line with your accusations.

Go back, read what you originally wrote, and see if you can figure out where I came up with that. Then look at all the responses from various folks and see if maybe you were not out of your lane on how far to push the ammo thing in NJ.

TGS
02-22-2016, 07:59 PM
Go back, read what you originally wrote, and see if you can figure out where I came up with that. Then look at all the responses from various folks and see if maybe you were not out of your lane on how far to push the ammo thing in NJ.

People are allowed to discuss things, Nyeti. When people talk about things, there's no need to get so damn ruffled as if everything is an impingement on your unassailable, omniscient experience. Drop the fucking "Salty LE status" quirks on me to, while you're at it. We're all allowed to discuss things here, and I'm not speaking down to Wayne or anyone else in this thread as if I'm the single god damn authority.

I can't wait until I'm a broken, grumpy asshole who looks for fulfillment in life by denigrating people new to the job simply for being new to the job. Maybe that's how you ran things back on your shift, but you're not on your shift. I'd ask you to notice that nobody else in this thread with decades of experience equal to or superior than yours is being a prick with me over the fact I'm discussing things with people.

Can you just drop it?

Shotgun
02-22-2016, 08:19 PM
NJ Charges Out-of-State LEO With Felony for Having His Legal Gun With Him

This is absolutely batsh-- crazy. Is there no professional courtesy shown by NJ at all? Being a lawyer, it would seem to me that the local DA would have much better things to do, and much more important, than trying to make a statement by prosecuting an out of state LEO.

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 08:19 PM
TGS....Sure, I can drop it, and I am sorry your feelings are hurt.

I was a salty boot. Competitive shooter, first guy recruited off a University campus, all the whiz bang gear, up on all latest officer survival tactics.......I learned very quick from some real salty folks who learned a lot over the years that there were many things not in the book, that Stressfire sucked, and a lot of what I "knew" wasn't how reality or the broken system worked. You tend to have a black and white view of a world I have found is very grey, and often things that should plainly be black are made white by someone in charge.

So....I ll just drop it and you can figure it out on your own. I got nothing left but experience to share, if you don't like the delivery....I guess you can be in a long list of people who don't like my delivery. If you can get past my general grumpy negativity....you may find a bit of wisdom that likely came out of mistakes I made myself.

GRV
02-22-2016, 08:32 PM
We've been on a roll lately. Tom, you might want start digging that pole out of the closet ;)

Chuck Haggard
02-22-2016, 09:19 PM
I'm trying to find a copy of that letter. It's in a big mess of stuff I did a data dump on when I left that job.

SLG
02-22-2016, 09:37 PM
I am not a negotiator, nor do I intend to play one on the internet, which is often more like Thunder Dome than anything else. ;-) BTW, if this is Thunder Dome, I'm the dude with boomerang:-)

I got a few PM's from people here (thank you, btw), regarding the direction this thread started to go in.

I know both Nyeti and TGS to some extent. I *think* that TGS used the word afraid in one of his earlier posts, and that it was not taken as intended. I'm pretty sure TGS wasn't calling Wayne anything negative, though I understand how someone might disagree with my take on it. Nyeti can be pretty argumentative, just like me and others here. Wayne has been very professional in all his dealings that I am aware of and pussy is not how I would describe him.

Can we go back to picking on stupid NJ politicians instead? :-) Also, if someone could send me a slice of Newark Pizza (the only town I ever came close to shooting a cop in, BTW), I would really appreciate it. Outside of the Bronx and Newark, good pizza is hard to find.

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 09:46 PM
SLG....yep, seeing the word "afraid" applied to Wayne set me off big time. I ll go back to how much I hate New Jersey. By the way...best pizza.....Fillippi's in Little Italy in San Diego:cool:.

SLG
02-22-2016, 09:49 PM
SLG....yep, seeing the word "afraid" applied to Wayne set me off big time. I ll go back to how much I hate New Jersey. By the way...best pizza.....Fillippi's in Little Italy in San Diego:cool:.

You're crazy. Drink some more chicken soup or something:-) No pizza in CA can touch east coast pizza. Now Chinese food...only reason to goto CA:-)

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 09:56 PM
You're crazy. Drink some more chicken soup or something:-) No pizza in CA can touch east coast pizza. Now Chinese food...only reason to goto CA:-)

You don't know what your missing being all closed minded like that. I have a feeling that the family is not from California.....just don't like snow.

Back to the topic.....charges were dropped. I imagine a poll was taken. Funny, their is some guy from a church all angry about them dropping the charges. Lifetime LEO facing up to ten years of prison time for an administrative crime.....and somebody from a church is angry.....wow.

rsa-otc
02-22-2016, 09:59 PM
You're crazy. Drink some more chicken soup or something:-) No pizza in CA can touch east coast pizza. Now Chinese food...only reason to goto CA:-)

Now this is where I am totally on board with you.

Sorry nyeti.

BTW when Vince is running the oven Palermo's pizza and old fashioned tomato pie in Roebling is right up there with the best. Unfortunately it burnt down two weeks ago. The whole town is in morning.

11B10
02-22-2016, 10:03 PM
It makes me so very sad to observe what has transpired in NJ. I pretty much spent all my summers growing up on the beaches of NJ and desperately want to vacation there now. I know them like I know my own backyard! My only brother and I sprinkled our parent's ashes in the calm surf at Wildwood one August night years ago. Let me just now say: "No way!" What's the beach alternative for a blue collar guy from Pa.? Delaware? Maryland? Yeah.

Erik
02-22-2016, 10:06 PM
Sorry whomever. I'm from New Jersey and live in Connecticut and New Haven pizza is really where it's at. Now that the gun laws have changed, it's truly the only thing CT does better than NJ. :(

Drang
02-22-2016, 10:07 PM
Back to the topic.....charges were dropped. I imagine a poll was taken. Funny, their is some guy from a church all angry about them dropping the charges. Lifetime LEO facing up to ten years of prison time for an administrative crime.....and somebody from a church is angry.....wow.
Article says nothing about a poll, but poll or not I bet they're getting beat up:
New Jersey Gun Charge Dropped Against Pennsylvania Guard - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jersey-gun-charge-dropped-pennsylvania-guard-37117186)
Three paragraphs, right?:

A prosecutor in New Jersey has dropped a felony gun charge against a Pennsylvania corrections officer, noting that officers only learned that the guard had a gun in his car because he was the victim of a drunken driving crash.

Gloucester County Prosecutor Sean Dalton said Monday that the charge against Raymond Hughes of carrying a weapon without a state permit was inappropriate.

Hughes had a Pennsylvania carry permit, but it wasn't recognized by New Jersey's strict gun laws. He faced a minimum of 3 ½ years in prison if he was found guilty.

SLG
02-22-2016, 10:08 PM
Sorry whomever. I'm from New Jersey and live in Connecticut and New Haven pizza is really where it's at. Now that the gun laws have changed, it's truly the only thing CT does better than NJ. :(

I'll give you Mystic Pizza, but that's as far as I'll go. :-)

Dagga Boy
02-22-2016, 10:17 PM
I started a pizza Thread in the Romper room. The hate should be epic.

HCM
02-22-2016, 10:51 PM
It makes me so very sad to observe what has transpired in NJ. I pretty much spent all my summers growing up on the beaches of NJ and desperately want to vacation there now. I know them like I know my own backyard! My only brother and I sprinkled our parent's ashes in the calm surf at Wildwood one August night years ago. Let me just now say: "No way!" What's the beach alternative for a blue collar guy from Pa.? Delaware? Maryland? Yeah.

North Carolina is nice.

Hambo
02-23-2016, 07:51 AM
"In this particular case, Mr. Hughes was the victim of a crime prior to any violation of New Jersey gun law," Dalton said.

Really? If he violated the law he did so when he crossed the state line, not when he told the cops he had a gun.

I see pressure from somewhere on the prosecutor and a tap dance to clean it up. Very lucky.

LittleLebowski
02-23-2016, 07:59 AM
You're crazy. Drink some more chicken soup or something:-) No pizza in CA can touch east coast pizza. Now Chinese food...only reason to goto CA:-)

Sigh.... SLG, you need to try some Mexican food in Cali. I also know what the wife is fixing you when you are out here :D

hufnagel
02-23-2016, 08:59 AM
Really? If he violated the law he did so when he crossed the state line, not when he told the cops he had a gun.

I see pressure from somewhere on the prosecutor and a tap dance to clean it up. Very lucky.

I have seething hatred and anger for the way they're shuffling this under the rugs.
A couple more cases like this though, and it'll be time for a NJ resident to chum up the waters.
"Why do out-of-state people get a free pass when tax paying NJ residents get screwed for the same non-crime?"
Note: i'm a pussy with too much to lose right now to be that test case. it shames me to say that, but it's true.

rsa-otc
02-23-2016, 09:26 AM
I have seething hatred and anger for the way they're shuffling this under the rugs.
A couple more cases like this though, and it'll be time for a NJ resident to chum up the waters.
"Why do out-of-state people get a free pass when tax paying NJ residents get screwed for the same non-crime?"
Note: i'm a pussy with too much to lose right now to be that test case. it shames me to say that, but it's true.

You and me both Brother.

Drang
02-23-2016, 01:40 PM
Note: i'm a pussy with too much to lose right now to be that test case. it shames me to say that, but it's true.

No need to explain why you do not wish to be a test case. Really, that needs to be set up in advance, with enough money that said Test Case has enough money behind it that the subject can make bail and a living while the case is winding its way through court.

Dagga Boy
02-23-2016, 01:58 PM
I have seething hatred and anger for the way they're shuffling this under the rugs.
A couple more cases like this though, and it'll be time for a NJ resident to chum up the waters.
"Why do out-of-state people get a free pass when tax paying NJ residents get screwed for the same non-crime?"
Note: i'm a pussy with too much to lose right now to be that test case. it shames me to say that, but it's true.

You're not a pussy, you are smart. I posted earlier that individuals never "win" these cases. Government entities will fight on the taxpayer dime through every appeal, and to the bitter end....unlike you, they have zero to lose. The entities lawyers and those who made decisions are only concerned about not ever being "wrong". IF at some point you do "win" after years of fighting and buckets of money, the government entity will offer a settlement and a stipulation of no wrong doing on their part. That is how the game is played. It is a rigged system.
The only way to change things is through class action type suits and political changes. What needs to happen is for one of the larger gun rights groups to bring a case for equal protection similar to the premise for shoving gay marriage down the throats of every state. Concealed Carry Licenses need to be recognized across state lines, even if another state doesn't issue them. With many of the current court rulings, the time is right to get the situation rectified.

joshs
02-23-2016, 02:19 PM
The time was right, I'm not so sure that it still is.

hufnagel
02-23-2016, 03:30 PM
The time was right, I'm not so sure that it still is.

If your qualification is because Scalia passed, then I agree. Until we know who's taking up seat #9 we're in the most troublesome of limbos.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-23-2016, 03:35 PM
No need to explain why you do not wish to be a test case. Really, that needs to be set up in advance, with enough money that said Test Case has enough money behind it that the subject can make bail and a living while the case is winding its way through court.

That's not quite how this works.

You can do a civil rights action claiming, for instance, a history of unequal treatment under the law between in state and out of state residents and a fear that you will receive unequal treatment as a result of the policy.

That permits you (maybe) to try the case as a person with an interest in the outcome (standing) but not that while "If you lose you go to jail" thing.

Suing after an arrest is remedial. Suing based on past practices is prospective and much safer.

Unfortunately that costs "$ x (Lots of $) + More" so until the NRA decides to handle this it isn't likely anyone is going to address it right now.

NJ is a bit of a lost cause. Their are other States and Federal Circuits with more sympathetic caselaw upon which to build.

Going after NJ today would be the equivalent of the Doolittle Tokyo Raid. Great for morale and showing people "LOOK! We Are Doing Something!" but nobody expected it to have any great immediate strategic impact at that time.

Once you lose a case and establish a precedent that is not in your favor, it is difficult to re-litigate.

NJ is Berlin in 1945.

The RKBA is still engaged in some pretty bitter fighting in France and getting supplies ashore for the push inland.

Heller & McDonald were the result of a lot of years of scholarship and writing.

One article I read (can't place it...) said the road to those cases began almost 25 years before they went to the courthouse and was the result of a lot of pro-RKBA law review articles building the momentum of thought behind the ideas to which those cases subscribed.

Dagga Boy
02-23-2016, 03:59 PM
That's not quite how this works.

You can do a civil rights action claiming, for instance, a history of unequal treatment under the law between in state and out of state residents and a fear that you will receive unequal treatment as a result of the policy.

That permits you (maybe) to try the case as a person with an interest in the outcome (standing) but not that while "If you lose you go to jail" thing.

Suing after an arrest is remedial. Suing based on past practices is prospective and much safer.

Unfortunately that costs "$ x (Lots of $) + More" so until the NRA decides to handle this it isn't likely anyone is going to address it right now.

NJ is a bit of a lost cause. Their are other States and Federal Circuits with more sympathetic caselaw upon which to build.

Going after NJ today would be the equivalent of the Doolittle Tokyo Raid. Great for morale and showing people "LOOK! We Are Doing Something!" but nobody expected it to have any great immediate strategic impact at that time.

Once you lose a case and establish a precedent that is not in your favor, it is difficult to re-litigate.

NJ is Berlin in 1945.

The RKBA is still engaged in some pretty bitter fighting in France and getting supplies ashore for the push inland.

Heller & McDonald were the result of a lot of years of scholarship and writing.

One article I read (can't place it...) said the road to those cases began almost 25 years before they went to the courthouse and was the result of a lot of pro-RKBA law review articles building the momentum of thought behind the ideas to which those cases subscribed.

Additionally, there were behind the scenes wealthy backers who provided funding. Those are some of the quiet heroes of these cases you never hear about, as they usually want no recognition of the spotlight because of potential negative effects on their business or "attention" from the government.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-23-2016, 04:17 PM
Additionally, there were behind the scenes wealthy backers who provided funding. Those are some of the quiet heroes of these cases you never hear about, as they usually want no recognition of the spotlight because of potential negative effects on their business or "attention" from the government.

We don't talk about that.
Fight club rules.

Drang
02-23-2016, 04:21 PM
That's not quite how this works.
The only thing I disagree with in your whole post is the "Berlin '45" metaphor, since, as a history geek with a mild case of Asperger's I want to yell "Red Army!" like that disproves the whole thing. :cool:

For the average gun gun rights activist, however (assuming there is such a thing) I think my explanation is an easier explanation about why, no, you don't want to just waltz into Joisey and get busted with a Judge in an Uncle Mike's nylon holster, and no, Alan Gura is not going to come to your rescue.

Once they shut up and start listening (assuming they do) then we can start in on the difference between civil/civil rights cases and criminal cases.

On a related note: Anyone have a handle on how many cases are pending against the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for FOPA violations? I have heard that there were two or three, hearsay evidence isn't admissible...

Drang
02-23-2016, 04:24 PM
Additionally, there were behind the scenes wealthy backers who provided funding. Those are some of the quiet heroes of these cases you never hear about, as they usually want no recognition of the spotlight because of potential negative effects on their business or "attention" from the government.

I wish they'd get more involved in the legislative and initiative/counter-initiative battle. We need deep, deep pockets to oppose the obscenely rich socialists who keep funding things like "universal background checks", "emergency protection orders", and various and sundry capacity or cosmetic bans.

11B10
02-23-2016, 08:33 PM
North Carolina is nice.

Thanks. I know Carolina's GREAT - it's just that Wildwood is less than 4 hours from where I'm currently sitting. Sorry, everyone, for drifting this thread.

Sammy1
02-24-2016, 10:02 PM
You're not a pussy, you are smart. I posted earlier that individuals never "win" these cases. Government entities will fight on the taxpayer dime through every appeal, and to the bitter end....unlike you, they have zero to lose. The entities lawyers and those who made decisions are only concerned about not ever being "wrong". IF at some point you do "win" after years of fighting and buckets of money, the government entity will offer a settlement and a stipulation of no wrong doing on their part. That is how the game is played. It is a rigged system.
The only way to change things is through class action type suits and political changes. What needs to happen is for one of the larger gun rights groups to bring a case for equal protection similar to the premise for shoving gay marriage down the throats of every state. Concealed Carry Licenses need to be recognized across state lines, even if another state doesn't issue them. With many of the current court rulings, the time is right to get the situation rectified.

Full faith and credit just like drivers license or, if you want to be really strict, than carrying on an out of state concealed carry permit is a civil offense with a fine only. When you catch the real bad guys carrying without a permit than there will be other charges such as felon in possession of a firearm.

Tom Duffy
02-25-2016, 05:36 PM
OK, New Jersey may not be the best state to own a gun, but on the plus side, we have the purest, cheapest heroin in the whole country. :)

hufnagel
02-25-2016, 06:01 PM
OK, New Jersey may not be the best state to own a gun, but on the plus side, we have the purest, cheapest heroin in the whole country. :)

unfortunately we spend more to equip cops with that naracan bullshit than on training them. gotta keep them junkies alive! they vote democratic!