Why no love for the 90-Two?

[Tamara]

So, I'm messing around with the contents of a friend's gun safe, and he's heavy on Sigs and Berettas. Among the Berettas is a 90-Two, and I'm kinda digging the Vertec-y feel and the dovetailed front sight, but it occurs to me that I hardly ever see these things in the wild. Certainly never ordered any at Indy Arms, and I think we got one at CCA back when they first came out, but I don't remember it flying off the shelf. Not a lot of chatter about them here, either, even when everybody was going through their Beretta phase last year.

What's the deal? Why didn't they catch on? Why no love for the 90-Two?

[mtnbkr]

I had never heard of them until now. I thought you were being cute with the 92 model number.

Chris

[Tamara]

See? :)

[GJM]

Too hard to spell.

[41magfan]

Just a guess, but the oddball grip configuration coupled with a specific holster requirement (relative to the other comparable guns in the series) kept it from becoming popular. Perhaps it was simply an answer to a question no one was asking at the time.

[StraitR]

So, I'm messing around with the contents of a friend's gun safe, and he's heavy on Sigs and Berettas. Among the Berettas is a 90-Two, and I'm kinda digging the Vertec-y feel and the dovetailed front sight, but it occurs to me that I hardly ever see these things in the wild. Certainly never ordered any at Indy Arms, and I think we got one at CCA back when they first came out, but I don't remember it flying off the shelf. Not a lot of chatter about them here, either, even when everybody was going through their Beretta phase last year.

What's the deal? Why didn't they catch on? Why no love for the 90-Two?

What do you mean last year? ;)

I think the physical design was too far removed from typical Beretta for me. Also, IMO, a large contingent of Beretta fans/geeks are the traditional type, you know, wood and steel. I would guess that the typical 90-Two buyer was a first time Beretta owner. Spitballing.

I like it's evolutionary brother, my 92A1. :cool:

[mtnbkr]

See? :)

I'm not the best example of marketing failure with semiautos. Until a couple weeks ago, I hadn't owned a semiauto *anything* for more than a decade (all revolvers, bolts, pumps, and single shots).

Then I went and bought a Ruger 22/45 Lite and a Glock 19 this month. Must be the Zika virus...

Chris

[JR1572]

I've handled and shot a 90-Two. I preferred it over that dumpster fire known as the PX4.

I'd love to find one for the right price.

JR1572

[Whirlwind06]

As a non-Beretta owner up until last year. I recall reading threads that were confusing to me. Was the 90-two a 92FS or was it a different model? So think Beretta made the name to similar to the 92.

[okie john]

So, I'm messing around with the contents of a friend's gun safe, and he's heavy on Sigs and Berettas. Among the Berettas is a 90-Two, and I'm kinda digging the Vertec-y feel and the dovetailed front sight, but it occurs to me that I hardly ever see these things in the wild. Certainly never ordered any at Indy Arms, and I think we got one at CCA back when they first came out, but I don't remember it flying off the shelf. Not a lot of chatter about them here, either, even when everybody was going through their Beretta phase last year.

What's the deal? Why didn't they catch on? Why no love for the 90-Two?

Beretta killed this one in the crib with such a horrible name. Had they called it the 92A5 or M-9 Mod3 Mark 11 or something like that, they could have gotten some lift from the military heritage and people might have paid attention to a pretty good pistol. But all they did was confuse 99% of the gun-buying public.


Okie John

[Gadfly]

It is my understanding the 90-Two was an attempt to update the gun. But my God was the name stupid stupid stupid.

It was beefed up to better handle the .40 and avoid some frame cracking issues. It also included a frame rail that for some reason came with a cover. It was not unlike the Brigadier. The Brigadier was meant to address slide cracks and add some weight to slow down the slide in recoil. But that meant it did not fit most Beretta holsters in the wild. The 90-Two went with a more traditional slide, but changed up the recoil spring set up a little with the shock buffer. But again, it would not fit traditional Beretta kydex holsters.

In the end, I think it had some good features. But I never heard what those features were and Beretta did a piss poor job of marketing. But, they added a smaller grip, dove tail front sight, 17rnd mags, rail, and a way to soak up some .40 recoil... A lot like the M9A3.

I would have been interested back in the day had I known. Instead, I became a fan of plastic.

I have two berettas now. If I ever found a real deal on a 90-two, I may have a third.

[Drang]

I had never heard of them until now. I thought you were being cute with the 92 model number.

Beat me to it.
When were these out? It's possible the disdain for the 92/M9 I came away from the Army with led to my ignoring anything Beretta, but I'm pretty sure I never heard of these.

[JR1572]

Beat me to it.
When were these out? It's possible the disdain for the 92/M9 I came away from the Army with led to my ignoring anything Beretta, but I'm pretty sure I never heard of these.

They came out in 2006.

JR1572

[JSGlock34]

What would the 92 series look like today if Beretta embraced the Vertec back in 2001? The M9A3 is really just a rebranded Vertec and yet has emerged as the future of the 92. Therefore, I can only conclude then that the 90-Two and 92A1 were diversions in the 92 family tree that will ultimately be remembered as evolutionary dead-ends. What did the 90-Two introduce that the Vertec did not already do (accessory rail, dovetailed sights, grip)? Not to mention the fact that the 90-Two and 92A1 were never offered from the factory in a 'G' configuration.

To put another way, by the time the 90-Two arrived, we already had the Vertec 92G, the Elite IA, Elite II, the 92G-SD...

Arguably, the greatest appeal of the 90-Two (and 92A1) is among .40 aficionados, particularly those who might have been bitten by the failures that plagued the Beretta 96. But I've yet to seen any real data that the 90-Two is any more durable than a Brigadier. It might be, I guess. But with all respect to the 92, if I was required to use .40, I'd probably choose a different gun.

And sheesh, the name. Gack.


I've handled and shot a 90-Two. I preferred it over that dumpster fire known as the PX4.

Haven't you heard? The PX4 is in style (well, at least the Compact is). I'd say "back in style", but that doesn't really work, does it?

[JR1572]

Haven't you heard? The PX4 is in style (well, at least the Compact is). I'd say "back in style", but that doesn't really work, does it?

I have. I'm really not a fan and that's rather well documented on this forum.

JR1572

[Hambo]

To put another way, by the time the 90-Two arrived, we already had the Vertec 92G, the Elite IA, Elite II, the 92G-SD...


^This. I did physically touch one in a shop when they came out, but as I recall the trigger blew and there wasn't a Langdon solution for that. What I was really looking for in that era was a G-SD. Now I'd just buy a Brig Tac and soldier on.

[JTQ]

I had never heard of them until now. I thought you were being cute with the 92 model number.

Chris

Drang wrote,
Beat me to it.
When were these out? It's possible the disdain for the 92/M9 I came away from the Army with led to my ignoring anything Beretta, but I'm pretty sure I never heard of these.

With humor I say the following...

You guys are either...
1) Under 30
2) Spent a lot of time deployed outside the country over the past 10 years
3) Just aren't paying attention


What's the deal? Why didn't they catch on? Why no love for the 90-Two?
Odd frame shape, that required a different holster than a regular Beretta 92. The holster makers never really got on board, probably because the gun buyers never really got on board, since there weren't any holsters for the gun. Chicken or the egg?

The grip didn't allow the use of standard Beretta 92 grips. The factory grip is/was kind of slick and there weren't any options to fix it.

Edit to add: the rail cover is a real oddity.

[WilsonCombatRep]

With humor I say the following...

You guys are either...
1) Under 30
2) Spent a lot of time deployed outside the country over the past 10 years
3) Just aren't paying attention


Odd frame shape, that required a different holster than a regular Beretta 92. The holster makers never really got on board, probably because the gun buyers never really got on board, since there weren't any holsters for the gun. Chicken or the egg?

The grip didn't allow the use of standard Beretta 92 grips. The factory grip is/was kind of slick and there weren't any options to fix it.

Edit to add: the rail cover is a real oddity.


Good summary. I was teaching a newbie how to shoot and he went out on his own and bought one. It was accurate and reliable but the grip frame was uncomfortable and slick and was a real detriment to shoot fast. Designed on a computer, not by a shooter.

[JR1572]

With humor I say the following...

You guys are either...
1) Under 30
2) Spent a lot of time deployed outside the country over the past 10 years
3) Just aren't paying attention


Odd frame shape, that required a different holster than a regular Beretta 92. The holster makers never really got on board, probably because the gun buyers never really got on board, since there weren't any holsters for the gun. Chicken or the egg?

The grip didn't allow the use of standard Beretta 92 grips. The factory grip is/was kind of slick and there weren't any options to fix it.

Edit to add: the rail cover is a real oddity.

I'm surprised no one ever thought about stippling the grip/adding grip tape etc...

JR1572

[Hauptmann]

When a firearm is given a retard name, then the average customer assumes that it was made by retard engineers.

[JSGlock34]

Designed on a computer, not by a shooter.

Right - the guys on the Beretta shooting team (Ernest Langdon, Todd Green, Super Dave Harrington) brought us designs like the Elite, Vertec and 92G-SD. I'm not a huge "guns with souls" guy, but I still enjoy that there's a little bit of EL and ToddG (both of whom I've taken classes from) in these guns. The Brigadier Tactical carries on this heritage. You get a little extra something when you take a Brig Tac to a class with Ernest.


Odd frame shape, that required a different holster than a regular Beretta 92.

Of all the criticism to level against the 90-Two (and there's a lot), the fact that it required a different holster than a regular 92 doesn't really get me fired up. When the Brigadier Tactical came out, it's not like there were lots of holsters available for it either. Adding a frame rail to the 92 (or any other handgun for that matter) is going to require a new holster.

The fact that the changes to the 90-Two frame meant that 92 slides were no longer compatible...well, that's another matter...

[Dave J]

The holster availability wouldn't be such a problem today, but I don't recall there being a plethora of guys folding kydex in their kitchens back in 2006 like we're accustomed to now. If the major mfr's didn't have it, there weren't nearly as many options.

I think the name had to hurt sales too.

gun guy, to new guy: "Maybe look at a Beretta 90-Two"
new guy, later, at gun shop: "Do you have a Beretta 92?"

[LockedBreech]

The holster availability wouldn't be such a problem today, but I don't recall there being a plethora of guys folding kydex in their kitchens back in 2006 like we're accustomed to now. If the major mfr's didn't have it, there weren't nearly as many options.

I think the name had to hurt sales too.

gun guy, to new guy: "Maybe look at a Beretta 90-Two"
new guy, later, at gun shop: "Do you have a Beretta 92?"

This really hammers home the most fatal flaw. The name murdered word of mouth and probably just caused a lot of confused frustration.

Grip was also a mite slippery.

[Gadfly]

I would say this is not the ultimate beretta fail. Nor is the Storm.

I think the biggest bomb was the 9000s. Talk about a turd... I think they sold more Nanos.

I would would rock a 90-two if one popped up in the $300 range.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/3a80eb59258e8d1534eecfe0d405820a.jpg

[Tamara]

I would say this is not the ultimate beretta fail. Nor is the Storm.

I think the biggest bomb was the 9000s.

That one bombed even harder than the Cougar. I'll bet most of them were sold as NOS from CDNN...

[Gadfly]

Apparently, the 9000s liked to go BANG when you used the de cocker. Apparently, that is not a desirable feature in a pistol.

Beretta fail...

90-two
Nano
Pico
PX4
Cougar
9000s

Probably more.

For the record, I don't think the Storm or the cougar were that bad. They just never landed a big contract. How long do you back a horse that can't win a race. When do you dump that horse for a new horse? Just ask Ruger P89 series dumped for the SR series which is about to get dumped for the All American.

[Tamara]

Had one each Nano and Pico in stock when I started working at Indy Arms back in August. It was January before they sold.

[JR1572]

That one bombed even harder than the Cougar. I'll bet most of them were sold as NOS from CDNN...


Apparently, the 9000s liked to go BANG when you used the de cocker. Apparently, that is not a desirable feature in a pistol.

Beretta fail...

90-two
Nano
Pico
PX4
Cougar
9000s

Probably more.

For the record, I don't think the Storm or the cougar were that bad. They just never landed a big contract. How long do you back a horse that can't win a race. When do you dump that horse for a new horse? Just ask Ruger P89 series dumped for the SR series which is about to get dumped for the All American.

What about the mini-cougar?

JR1572

[Drang]

With humor I say the following...

You guys are either...
1) Under 30
Not for a long time.
2) Spent a lot of time deployed outside the country over the past 10 years
Oddly, the Army was not interested in bringing a retired Korean linguist back after 9/11
3) Just aren't paying attention.
I did mention "ignoring anything Beretta", didn't I? (Still surprised I don't remember ever hearing of it, though...)

[LockedBreech]

Apparently, the 9000s liked to go BANG when you used the de cocker. Apparently, that is not a desirable feature in a pistol.

Beretta fail...

90-two
Nano
Pico
PX4
Cougar
9000s

Probably more.

For the record, I don't think the Storm or the cougar were that bad. They just never landed a big contract. How long do you back a horse that can't win a race. When do you dump that horse for a new horse? Just ask Ruger P89 series dumped for the SR series which is about to get dumped for the All American.

As an owner of a PX4 and a Cougar, this made me wince.

Not because you're wrong, just because I really like Beretta and there has been a pretty long trend of mediocrity outside the 92-series.

My PX4 has been fantastic, but I'm not blind to the "sample of one" bias and I've seen that they just don't do as well over large numbers and periods of time as the competition. As much as I enjoy its shooting characteristics, I can't feel any confidence the notch-in-a-rotating-barrel system is more bulletproof than the simplicity of the overwhelmingly more popular Browning-derived locked-breech system.

[Gadfly]

That rotating barrel was a direct result of the 92s fat locking block. The locking block works with 9mm, it sort of works with .40 (as long as you use a brigadier slide). When you get into .357 sig and .45, that locking block and slide would have to get super fat. Too fat for anyone to buy. They needed something strong enough for the new .40/.357. So they decided to be different and went rotating. It kept things thin. And it apparently kept people from buying them.

The 90-two was also a brief attempt to get the .40 to run better in the falling locking block system. The fact they never sold a .357 sig version could be that a) they could not make it work or b) sales were so slow on the 90-two they just gave up on the .357 version.

If the cougar and storm used 92 mags, it may have helped sales. At $30 bucks a pop, factoring in new mag cost can kill a purchase. If I already have 12 92 mags, and I could use them with a cougar or storm, it makes them a much more attractive option...

I think Canadian customs was the only major contract the Storm won. I don't recall any major Cougar contract.

[Gadfly]

Where is Todd L Green to chime in on this? This seems like it is right up his alley considering his past life working at Beretta....

[JR1572]

I think Canadian customs was the only major contract the Storm won. I don't recall any major Cougar contract.

The agency I work for had over 1K 9mm PX4s from '08 to '15. We transitioned to G17s.

I remember back in late '01 to '04 (maybe) we had a few Cougars out there in use with 92FS being issued to the masses. There were some detectives with 92Cs issued to them and the SWAT guys had Vertecs. The 92FS were in service for a while and were sold back to us in '09 for $249.

JR1572

[sikiguya]

Speaking of Beretta....has anyone heard anything on the APX since it was announced a year ago?! It is like the best kept secret ever...

[LockedBreech]

Speaking of Beretta....has anyone heard anything on the APX since it was announced a year ago?! It is like the best kept secret ever...

Been wondering the same, and also worried they're late to the game. With the slew of great strikers - PPQ, VP9, P320 - suddenly making the market a lot more interesting for Glock, even if the APX was PERFECT it'd be a hard sell wth Beretta's recent track record.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigT]

That rotating barrel was a direct result of the 92s fat locking block. The locking block works with 9mm, it sort of works with .40 (as long as you use a brigadier slide). When you get into .357 sig and .45, that locking block and slide would have to get super fat. Too fat for anyone to buy. They needed something strong enough for the new .40/.357. So they decided to be different and went rotating. It kept things thin. And it apparently kept people from buying them.

The 90-two was also a brief attempt to get the .40 to run better in the falling locking block system. The fact they never sold a .357 sig version could be that a) they could not make it work or b) sales were so slow on the 90-two they just gave up on the .357 version.

If the cougar and storm used 92 mags, it may have helped sales. At $30 bucks a pop, factoring in new mag cost can kill a purchase. If I already have 12 92 mags, and I could use them with a cougar or storm, it makes them a much more attractive option...

I think Canadian customs was the only major contract the Storm won. I don't recall any major Cougar contract.


FWIW the SAPS (South African Police Service) are in the process of transition to the Storm from their B92's and Z88's.


Will take a while as its being done a bit at a time. But it's a lot of guns eventually.

[HCM]

FWIW the SAPS (South African Police Service) are in the process of transition to the Storm from their B92's and Z88's.


Will take a while as its being done a bit at a time. But it's a lot of guns eventually.

The only thing worse than the Derpies is HIV.

According to this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19289-South-Africa-Some-general-info 88% of the SAPS Officers are HIV positive - is it a coincidence this coincides with the adoption of the PX4 STORM ? As the Ancient Aliens guy says " I think not".

[Tamara]

The only thing worse than the Derpies is HIV.

According to this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19289-South-Africa-Some-general-info 88% of the SAPS Officers are HIV positive - is it a coincidence this coincides with the adoption of the PX4 STORM ? As the Ancient Aliens guy says " I think not".

Are you insinuating that...

6069

[HCM]

Like the man says....

6070

[Gadfly]

In this movie I saw....

An APX may have shown up at the local FFL. The APX may have had the internals removed to prevent firing (or even speculating about trigger pull). A very famous holster maker may have picked up the APX to make a mold....

In the movie I saw once...

Would have been interesting if it happened in real life.

[stimpee]

These are not the droids you're looking for...

[JonInWA]

My late-to-the-thread .02:

While the 90-TWO might in fact be/have been a credible pistol, it had multiple strikes that militated against if from the onset, in my opinion.

First, the cosmetic re-casting in conjunction with Giugario Design was of questionable benefit, and if anything might well have been perceived more as a negative, given the less than stellar 9000 affiliation with Giugario Design, which was widely interpreted as being an example of design trumping operation/durability/reliability-not exactly the ideal cloud to be born under.

Second, the model seemed to provide muddled advantages to competing models, and Beretta's marketing did little to coherently pinpoint and discern the respective market model niches, if indeed there were any.

Third, the primary benefit to the 90-TWO seems to be afforded to the .40 variant-the internal recoil buffer. However, the .40 cartridge has been steadily declining in desirability, given the combination of its inherently more difficult shootability, cost, and concurrent improvements to 9mm cartridges-all militating against "another" .40-and the concurrent benefits the 90-TOW offered against competing existing 9mm platforms (Beretta and otherwise) seemed to be pretty minimal (another example of "the juice not justifying the squeeze'"-good pistol or not).

At the end of the day, I don't think that the 90-TWO really provided much of value that wasn't already concurrently provided by existing 92/M9/M9A1/or 92A1 platforms. Especially against the 92A1, the benefits are pretty difficult to discern....and I think that pretty much doomed the 90-TWO from the onset.

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

At the end of the day, I don't think that the 90-TWO really provided much of value that wasn't already concurrently provided by existing ... 92A1 platforms. Especially against the 92A1, the benefits are pretty difficult to discern....and I think that pretty much doomed the 90-TWO from the onset.

Some real Beretta fan will have to chime in, but I don't think the 90-Two ever competed with the 92A1. I think the 90-Two may have been out of production for a year or two before the 92A1 hit the market. The 92A1/96A1, I believe, was designed as a follow-on replacement for the 90-Two.

[HCM]

Some real Beretta fan will have to chime in, but I don't think the 90-Two ever competed with the 92A1. I think the 90-Two may have been out of production for a year or two before the 92A1 hit the market. The 92A1/96A1, I believe, was designed as a follow-on replacement for the 90-Two.

This ^^^ exactly.

[JonInWA]

Nope-not exactly....Take a look at the attached 2010 Beretta brochure, and you'll discern that while the 92A1 and 96A1 evolved chronologically subsequent to the 90-TWO, they were concurrently marketed.

6109

Best, Jon

[Edwin]

Because the name is a homonym, a lot of folks refer to the 90-Two as "the dash".

[GJM]

Because the name is a homonym, a lot of folks refer to the 90-Two as "the dash".

I think of it as Beretta's attempt at their new Coke.

[HCM]

Nope-not exactly....Take a look at the attached 2010 Beretta brochure, and you'll discern that while the 92A1 and 96A1 evolved chronologically subsequent to the 90-TWO, they were concurrently marketed.

6109

Best, Jon

Getting rid of old stock ?

Either way the 90-two was a fail. Even if it lived on shortly into the 92A1 / 96A1 period the A1 guns were an attempt to salvage the best feature of the "-" design, The improved recoil system to handle 40 Cal. Unfortunately it was too little too late.

GJM hit the nail on the head re: Beretta's version of new Coke.

[JonInWA]

I think another thing that didn't exactly help it aesthetically was the bulbous rail cover, which I'm not sure was even needed. It's not that it was a bad gun (unfortunately, the snarky side of me cant resist this-Beretta had some other contenders for that...), it just seemed like nothing more than a fairly unnecessary stylistic exercise. And one that diluted, rather than increased the overall Beretta market presence, in my opinion. But there's really nothing intrinsically bad or objectable on the gun per se-so owners needn't feel obligated to immediately divest themselves of it and get another 92-but I wouldn't bank on them becoming an appreciating investment, either.

Best, Jon

[LockedBreech]

I think of it as Beretta's attempt at their new Coke.

That's perfect.


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