Healthy Grip Strengthening

[BWT]

So, as I type this I have a somewhat subtle pain in my elbows.

I fear that I've given myself tennis-elbow like symptoms (perhaps tennis elbow) after years of trying grip strengthening. I never bought a Captain of Crunch; I felt like that was too far so I avoided it. Long story short, I lifted weights for my early 20's and teen years; I like to see improvement and increasing weight while maintaining high repetition sets (10 minimum) was how I thought I could avoid injury. Simply put, I saw people injure themselves maxing out or doing chest beating exercises that they couldn't maintain form to complete, etc.; so I figured a good rule of thumb was if I couldn't do a set of 10 with that weight I wouldn't increase it.

Largely, that worked well. Until I eventually started leg pressing just too much weight (even in a set of ten) and I believe quite honestly that's what caused my two inguinal hernias.

So, I figured avoid the same pitfalls with grip strengthening; go with something moderate but still challenging emphasis on high repetitions.

A couple of years back; I bought one of these (http://www.rei.com/product/784301/gripmaster-pro-hand-strengthener-extra-heavy-tension) and I used it fairly regularly for a few years. I figured I'd do 50 complete compression's with one hand (say my right) then switch to my left and complete another 50 compressions; then I'd hold the grip strengthener closed for a minute with the first hand and alternate to the next. I finally go to the point of doing 5-sets of that most days; so 5 minutes and 250 compressions with each hand daily.

I noticed I started having pains in the outer side of my elbows and I think attributed that to working with a keyboard predominantly (could still be a factor), but I stopped doing grip strengthening for awhile (honestly work just got too busy to do this 10-15 minute routine on lunch breaks, etc.). I noticed the pain returned pretty badly later on when resuming even just 3 sets a day and 3 minutes per hand.

At this point, I've stopped entirely until I figure out how to do this properly. I saw where Mr. White had mentioned tennis elbow, etc. a few months ago and posted in a thread this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsoyR1Qc2BY) about this. So, I tried just some simple overhand almost stretches and even twisting a shirt just to see if that helped, and quite honestly it did even just a simple 5-10 repetitions felt like it was stretching muscles that were just irritated; I felt pretty decent relief. Which is what lead me to come here. I definitely need some guidance on this.

So, when I lifted weight at my peak weights; I realized I was over-doing it and I lost about 60~ lbs and stopped lifting because I realized I was getting knee/hip pains then (the hernias didn't come to the surface until a few years after); I felt great as far as physical fitness.

Now, I find myself in a similar circumstance with simple grip strengthening, etc. So, what I'd like to ask of anybody (that's eyes haven't rolled back into their head yet at this lengthy post) that does grip training, what do you do and at what intervals? How long have you been doing it and have you noticed any ill effects?

I've come to the point in life; I pretty much don't have an ego about this and I'd rather ask about this than sweep the issue under the rug. Hey, maybe it'll save somebody else the head aches associated.

So to summarize,

A.) What tools, weight, whatever apparatus, etc. (if any) do you use to improve grip performance?
B.) What intervals do you train at?
C.) Do you have sources that you reference for good information on this topic?
D.) What do you consider adequate grip strength and where do you stop pushing it? (I've just realized repetitive stress injury is a real thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury and a plateau isn't always a bad thing; sometimes you've hit physiological limits).

I've thought about buying the tool in Mr. White's video but I also would like to retain some semblance of improvement in forearm/grip strength.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: I didn't mean to speak poorly of Mr. White but what I meant was; I'm holding off on resuming these activities until I have a better game plan and I don't think just adding some elbow strengthening and keeping on with grip strengthening business as usual is the best idea. So, I figure seek advice and re-approach this issue with a fresh perspective before picking up any of the old habits.

[scw2]

I read Chad's posts in the past and this appears to be an updated article linked by StraitR (I think) recently (https://www.absolutept.com/shooters-elbow/), I think. I asked a question in the comments about the Theraband flexbars and he responded, will be doing the workout he recommends as well as adding Therabands and rubberbands for extensions throughout the day.

Ron Avery also has a useful video about grip strength training, where he details his regimen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8_w3fxnZss

[BehindBlueI's]

With the understanding I claim no expertise:

I use the Iron Mind Green Egg. I squish it as I watch TV until my forearm is tired, then switch arms. I've no real plan of reps or the like, I just listen to what my body tells me.

I've got slipped disks in my c-spine and loss of sensation in my index finger (used to more fingers but got the feeling back in the others). My grip strength was down to 80-lb on the calibrated doo-dad at the PT's office. Last visit I was at 120 lb. Now I'm sure a lot of that improvement was due to the PT, but the egg squishing helped as well.

Now, that said, the best advise is probably to find a physical therapist and set up an appointment. Let a pro look at your issues and set up a game plan for you. If I'd done that earlier instead of being stupid (Macho/cheap/stupid) I'd probably have gotten the feeling back in all my fingers. Shop around, there's a big difference in pricing. Independent sport's medicine places were 1/3-1/4 the cost of the big name hospital chain's PT center here locally.

[Ntexwheels]

I've used nothing more than a Tennis ball for years. I use it while reading or watching TV, switching from left to right hand and back again. I'll squeeze on it for 30 to 45 minutes a night. Never have any pain in elbows or lower arms.

[pablo]

Years ago I worked my way up to closing a Captain of Crush No. 2 gripper for 60 seconds. My hands hurt a lot, I got a raging case of tennis elbow and I was good at closing grippers, but didn't necessarily have a strong functional grip. Grippers develop a strong crush grip, but being able to squeeze grips to a small diameter really isn't all that useful.

I don't do crush grip specific exercises anymore. I do grip intensive exercises: farmers carry (with handles or pinching bumper plates), sandbags, sledge hammer and kettlebells. Sometimes I use Grip4orce fat grips. I can't get the No.2 gripper closed anymore but I have a stronger "grip".

[voodoo_man]

I have a 60lb grip strength thing I picked up at the local sports fitness store that I left in my car.

When I drive I use that until my hands/arms get tired. Usually ten per hand then switch.

[45dotACP]

I'd really see a physical therapist that specializes in sports medicine. Unless sumdood on the internet can tell you the origin, insertion, innervation, planes of motion, agonists and antagonists of each muscle from memory, and even then...there are just things I don't trust the internet as a reference for.

Forearm muscles are small, easy to injure and there are a lot of them. Home brewing a therapy routine is not something you want to do without a verified professional with creds having some input.

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[JV_]

Unless sumdood on the internet can tell you the origin, insertion, innervation, planes of motion, agonists and antagonists of each muscle from memory, and even then...And unless you know the real answer yourself, how would you try to call BS on something they may say?

[GJM]

1) For those that shoot a lot, I think there are two groups of shooters. Those that have elbow pain, and those that will develop elbow pain. Right now, my elbow pain has gone away, but see #2 below.

2) I am a believer in two things to deal with elbow pain -- using the Thera Band, and regularly doing the elbow exercises recommended by Robbie Leatham's PT.

https://www.absolutept.com/shooters-elbow/

3) I have concluded that for me, personally, I would rather build grip strength by dry and live firing. That allows me to build grip strength while practicing with the pistol. While I want to be stronger, at the end of the day, I really just want to shoot better.

[Josh Runkle]

For pain that reoccurs: see an actual medical practitioner, not the Internet.

[Wendell]

I waited until after I was injured to see a PT. Not only was she able to correct the injury in short order, she also taught me how to prevent it from happening again.

My advice? See a PT; don't wait until you're injured.

[Hambo]

1) For those that shoot a lot, I think there are two groups of shooters. Those that have elbow pain, and those that will develop elbow pain. Right now, my elbow pain has gone away, but see #2 below.

2) I am a believer in two things to deal with elbow pain -- using the Thera Band, and regularly doing the elbow exercises recommended by Robbie Leatham's PT.

https://www.absolutept.com/shooters-elbow/

3) I have concluded that for me, personally, I would rather build grip strength by dry and live firing. That allows me to build grip strength while practicing with the pistol. While I want to be stronger, at the end of the day, I really just want to shoot better.

I'm not a PT but I think there is a lot of truth here. I did the CoC things while I was lifting, but I treated them like any other workout. Most people don't do sets of 50 reps on the bench, so why do them with your hands? I also think Pablo is right on. The guys I've know with killer grip strength were all guys who worked hard but didn't do any grip training. Think brick layer, carpet cleaner (fighting that vac all day), etc. So now I'd either do real work, exercise simulating real work, or go with GJM's plan and train on the gun.

[Irelander]

The original shooting grip strength trainer:
http://hkp7.com/graphics/p7m8blue.jpg

[John Hearne]

The other consideration is - how much do you really need? When Karl Rehn examined this, he concluded that 80-100 lbs of crush grip strength was sufficient for males. Karl is a USPSA Grand Master and this is where his strength measures out. I'd measure to see where my current grip strength is and determine if I need to build or sustain.

One of the research pieces I read found that grip strength improved shooting scores up to a certain point but found drops in performance beyond a certain level. I suspect strong weight lifters who never learned to isolate the trigger finger from the rest of the hand.

I realize that Vogel has some crazy grip strength but most of us are not Vogel and we can find more efficient ways to improve our performance.

[wtturn]

Largely, that worked well. Until I eventually started leg pressing just too much weight (even in a set of ten) and I believe quite honestly that's what caused my two inguinal hernias.

So, I figured avoid the same pitfalls with grip strengthening; go with something moderate but still challenging emphasis on high repetitions.

A couple of years back; I bought one of these (http://www.rei.com/product/784301/gripmaster-pro-hand-strengthener-extra-heavy-tension) and I used it fairly regularly for a few years. I figured I'd do 50 complete compression's with one hand (say my right) then switch to my left and complete another 50 compressions; then I'd hold the grip strengthener closed for a minute with the first hand and alternate to the next. I finally go to the point of doing 5-sets of that most days; so 5 minutes and 250 compressions with each hand daily.

I noticed I started having pains in the outer side of my elbows and I think attributed that to working with a keyboard predominantly (could still be a factor), but I stopped doing grip strengthening for awhile (honestly work just got too busy to do this 10-15 minute routine on lunch breaks, etc.). I noticed the pain returned pretty badly later on when resuming even just 3 sets a day and 3 minutes per hand.


Don't take this the wrong way, but from your description you have no idea how to program a physical activity routine in such a way as to not injure yourself.

Especially the high rep fixation.

Look, grip strength is dead simple. It will come as a pleasant side effect of any structured, comprehensive weight lifting program (which IMO, every able-bodied man should be doing SOME weightlifting). It can be supplemented, if necessary, by isolation exercises such as grippers or bands. It can be targeted by more pullups, farmer's walks, deadlifts, etc. Basically any time one wraps his hands around a bar.

The surest way to injure one's self is to do high volume grip isolation work by itself.

The best rehab for tennis elbow IME is to start working out again. Curls, pullups, bench press, etc.

[wtturn]

The other consideration is - how much do you really need? When Karl Rehn examined this, he concluded that 80-100 lbs of crush grip strength was sufficient for males. Karl is a USPSA Grand Master and this is where his strength measures out. I'd measure to see where my current grip strength is and determine if I need to build or sustain.

One of the research pieces I read found that grip strength improved shooting scores up to a certain point but found drops in performance beyond a certain level. I suspect strong weight lifters who never learned to isolate the trigger finger from the rest of the hand.

I realize that Vogel has some crazy grip strength but most of us are not Vogel and we can find more efficient ways to improve our performance.

I want all the grip strength I can get.

One doesn't use maximal grip strength while shooting (hopefully). So talking about how much maximal grip strength is sufficient for shooting is missing the point.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it takes 50# of grip strength to effectively manage recoil. If my maximal Grip strength is 50#, then I'm using 100% of my available grip to control the gun. Obviously that's unsustainable. If I train up my grip and get it to 60# max grip, then while shooting I only have to use 83% of my max grip. Better, but not optimal. I'm still going to get tired. Let's suppose then I train diligently and get my max grip to 100#. When I to the range, I only have to use 50% of my potential grip strength to control the gun. Now we're in a good place.

Since gripping a gun requires sub-maximal grip exertion, I still want my grip to be a beastly as possible and drive that percentage lower and lower. The lower is gets, the less energy I have to exert to get the same effect on the gun and the more endurance I will have.

[JV_]

Since gripping a gun requires sub-maximal grip exertion, I still want my grip to be a beastly as possible and drive that percentage lower and lower. Agreed.


The lower is gets, the less energy I have to exert to get the same effect on the gun and the more endurance I will have.The energy required to exert (for example) 50# of grip force should be nearly the same regardless of your maximum capability. If you replaced "energy" with "perceived effort" then I'd agree with you.

[wtturn]

The energy required to exert (for example) 50# of grip force should be nearly the same regardless of your maximum capability. If you replaced "energy" with "perceived effort" then I'd agree with you.

You're right, of course. Thanks for the correction.

[pablo]

Let's say for the sake of argument that it takes 50# of grip strength to effectively manage recoil. If my maximal Grip strength is 50#, then I'm using 100% of my available grip to control the gun. Obviously that's unsustainable. If I train up my grip and get it to 60# max grip, then while shooting I only have to use 83% of my max grip. Better, but not optimal. I'm still going to get tired. Let's suppose then I train diligently and get my max grip to 100#. When I to the range, I only have to use 50% of my potential grip strength to control the gun. Now we're in a good place.


I went down the same path and found that the theory works out better on paper than in real life. I don't think it has any actual relevance to shooting. It took me a long time to figure out that I can't out muscle a pistol. Once you get to the point that the pistol not moving in around in your hand under recoil, what are the actual benefits of a stronger grip versus the muscular tension that created through the upper body by gripping hard? I think it's the latter, not that I have the scientific background to back it up, there are better ways to develop than focusing on grip strength.

[Kevin B.]

I went down the same path and found that the theory works out better on paper than in real life. I don't think it has any actual relevance to shooting. It took me a long time to figure out that I can't out muscle a pistol. Once you get to the point that the pistol not moving in around in your hand under recoil, what are the actual benefits of a stronger grip versus the muscular tension that created through the upper body by gripping hard? I think it's the latter, not that I have the scientific background to back it up, there are better ways to develop than focusing on grip strength.

Totally agree. I have significantly compromised grip strength in my right hand and it does not impact my shooting significantly.

[Mr_White]

BWT,

Sorry to hear you are having trouble.

I hurt my hand years ago on the Captains of Crush #1.5. I ceased using them and my hand recovered in a week or so, but I was scared enough of the Captains that I didn't use them again for years. I already had tendinitis when that happened.

Getting over the tendinitis (I feel like I am almost completely over it) seemed like a matter of time, continuing to do dry and live fire as much as I could, massage, and stretching. Also, getting the Thera Band Flex Bar over a year ago also felt like it made a huge difference. Since December 2014 I have been doing the exercises recommended for both medial and lateral epicondylitis, to both arms. Three sets of fifteen, both arms, both sides of elbow on each arm, about five days a week. My subjective sense is that this single thing is the biggest factor in reducing my tendinitis and keeping it at bay. And not doing draw practice for literally hours at a time. That feels helpful too.

I am not a doctor, nor have I ever consulted a doctor about tendinitis. I learned the exercises I am doing from this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2QQaVfeI4U

I've resumed using the Captains of Crush (allure of moar grip strength...) but am trying to be very very careful. Been doing one or two sessions per week with the T and #1, with both hands. I stretch hands and arms before and after. About 5 repetitions each hand with the T, which feels very easy. And then up to 5 repetitions with the #1 (so far have been mostly cutting these short by a rep or two, and accepting reps where I don't get it fully closed.) Plus the green Thera Band Flex Bar about five days a week as discussed. Stretching and massage to hands and forearms almost daily. And once or twice a week, I put a plain old rubber band around my fingers and hold them open.

Since it sounds like you have an actual problem, I think you should do better than I did and probably go consult an actual doctor.

Good luck!

[Sal Picante]

And not doing draw practice for literally hours at a time. That feels helpful too.

^ this. I now keep the sessions varied/light/stretch my hands out. I also do PT work for my shoulders (they're super super tight) while I dry fire.

Great info, BTW. I read all the words.

[pablo]

I've resumed using the Captains of Crush (allure of moar grip strength...) but am trying to be very very careful. Been doing one or two sessions per week with the T and #1, with both hands. I stretch hands and arms before and after. About 5 repetitions each hand with the T, which feels very easy. And then up to 5 repetitions with the #1 (so far have been mostly cutting these short by a rep or two, and accepting reps where I don't get it fully closed.) Plus the green Thera Band Flex Bar about five days a week as discussed. Stretching and massage to hands and forearms almost daily. And once or twice a week, I put a plain old rubber band around my fingers and hold them open.

I'm not an expert on grippers but I found that just 1 rep for time was a lot easier on my fingers than reps and almost as effective. Once I got to 60 seconds I was ready to move up to the next gripper. When I got to the 1.5 I started doing a two hand release and that really cut down on the pain in my ring and pinky fingers.

[Sadmin]

I shifted away from the CoC grippers and just focus on farmers walks. Pinch gripping plates or dumbbells give you the benefit of forearm and grip strength as gravity tries to open your hands as well as shredding your shoulders and back which transfer into smashing something between your hands. If you dont do them, give them a shot; I have noticed much more difference as opposed to trying to stick to the CoC workout. I still keep a .5 in my desk at work but use it as more as a de-stressor and skin hardener.

[Chance]

I am also not an expert, but here's my strategy for what it's worth. I only do grip strength exercises after back or arm workouts, when everything is warmed up. I'll usually do a warm-up set with CoC #T for ten reps, then use bands for extensions, ten reps. Then I'll do three sets for ten reps, as high as I can go on the CoCs. If I can't close all the way, I'll use my other hand to close the gripper, and do negatives for those reps. Gripper sets are followed with extension sets.

I cannot use the grippers more than twice a week, or I'll start developing tendinitis. I'll usually just do once a week. Right now, I'm within coughing distance of closing CoC #2 with my dominant hand, and can close CoC #1.5 with my non-dominant.

I have also used the Thera Band Flex Bar, and it's awesome. Absolutely worth the $30 off Amazon.

[wtturn]

I went down the same path and found that the theory works out better on paper than in real life.

I don't know what this means.

Either a strong-ass grip is optimal for shooting or it's sub-optimal.

[wtturn]

Totally agree. I have significantly compromised grip strength in my right hand and it does not impact my shooting significantly.

I don't know what this means, particularly the "significantly" qualifier. Can you quantify it for us?

[Kevin B.]

I don't know what this means, particularly the "significantly" qualifier. Can you quantify it for us?

For reference, the grip strength in my right hand is limited to the extent that I cannot hang from a vertical rope. When I last saw an occupational therapist, he equated the strength in my right hand to that of a ten-year old.

The only time my (lack of) grip strength is an issue for me is with a heavy-recoiling, lightweight firearm. Magnum J-frames and a Glock 30 with Federal 230-grain +P HST will torque in my hand due to my weak grip.

Truthfully, the compromised mobility in my trigger finger is probably a bigger issue than my grip strength when it comes to fast splits and neither has kept me from running splits in the high teens to an A-zone at 7-10 yards.

[pablo]

I don't know what this means.

Either a strong-ass grip is optimal for shooting or it's sub-optimal.

I think there's a little bit of middle ground in there. At one point I thought that a high crush grip strength was a really important in terms of fitness and shooting. When I started I could close a COC no 1 (100lb) gripper with little problem and worked my up to a No. 2 (195lb). My shooting did not improve at all. I was trying to out muscle the gun and it's just not possible. Later I learned sight tracking, that really opened the door to recoil management and my shooting really started to improve.

Once you can grip a pistol tight enough that you don't lose your grip under recoil what does gripping it tighter actually do to improve your shooting?

[wtturn]

My shooting did not improve at all. I was trying to out muscle the gun and it's just not possible. Later I learned sight tracking, that really opened the door to recoil management and my shooting really started to improve.



Let's not conflate technique with strength, or vice versa.

Strength is contributory to the execution of good technique.

"Muscling" the gun is poor technique and irrelevant to the issue of hand strength.

I'm not sure what the relationship between sight tracking and your perceived improvement in recoil management means.


Once you can grip a pistol tight enough that you don't lose your grip under recoil what does gripping it tighter actually do to improve your shooting?

I don't suppose it improves it at all, if you are doing stand-and-shoot stuff, or bullseye or something. It may be beneficial, even.

But if you're running and gunning and shooting fast, then a strong grip is going to reduce muzzle rise and return the sights faster out of recoil. It's going to reduce the possibility of shifting or losing the grip while running or if something bumps the gun. It's going to allow me to retain the gun if somebody tries to take it from me.

[jetfire]

I used to be super into the Captains of Crush grippers as well, but in what seems to be a now recurring theme, gave them up when I started to develop tennis elbow in my weak hand. Now instead of playing with my CoCs, I focus on exercises that require me to actually grip things; my two favorites being deadlifts and pullups/chin ups. I recently took a grip strength test with one of those fancy medical pressure gauge devices and discovered that even though I haven't touched a CoC in ages, I can exert over 110 pounds of grip force with my weak hand at maximum effort.

And my elbows feel fine.

[45dotACP]

I essentially gave up on the "crush grippers" thinking that I personally could pluck some fruit that's hanging a little lower.

[GJM]

Using common sense, a stronger grip seems better. However, we don't just measure each shooter's grip at the weekend matches, and post results based on strength. (Just looking at shooters, you might think fat guys shoot better, since so many top shooters are overweight.) Clearly, high level shooting is more complicated than just grip strength.

Vogel sticks in my mind as the guy that popularized hand strength training. What is funny, is the way he holds the pistol, it doesn't optimize strength. When I shoot hot .40, using his grip, my hands want to separate in recoil, in a way they don't with a conventional grip. Other shooters like Enos and Avery favor holding the gun firmly, but not choking it.

If I could buy more grip strength, like getting a new pistol, I would buy it. The problem is that getting more grip strength comes at a cost of training time, and for many, elbow problems. I have a 40 percent tear, surgically repaired, in my right hand, that makes my left hand stronger than my right. Maybe I am lucky to be a right handed shooter, as my left hand which is stronger, is my clamp hand.
Another factor is ambient temperature, as I can hold onto the gun harder in warmer temperatures than when it is cold.

Sorry for the rambling here.

[FOG]

I hung a rope from the rafters in my barn. Climbing said rope has given me a solid grip. That and normal farm chores. Never cared for the gripper gadgets.

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[GJM]

I hung a rope from the rafters in my barn. Climbing said rope has given me a solid grip. That and normal farm chores. Never cared for the gripper gadgets.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

Are there sheep on your farm? :)

[Kevin B.]

I hung a rope from the rafters in my barn. Climbing said rope has given me a solid grip. That and normal farm chores. Never cared for the gripper gadgets.
Crazy talk. ;)

[BWT]

First,

I want to say thanks for all of the insights, humor, advice, well wishes, etc. I really appreciate it. Honestly, that's what makes this forum so great. I'd like to acknowledge every person that's expressed advice but I feel like that'd probably be a little bit excessive. But, rest assured; it's appreciated.

I realize I haven't handled this situation best but once I began to comprehend it or become aware of the damaging nature of the practice; I stopped.

I guess it's worth mentioning, my routine didn't start at 250 repetitions and 5 minutes of compression a day, but that's where it ended. It actually started at a single set of 50 and I think I added a minute eventually. Because I wanted grip strength but also hold strength. I had the "heavy" strengthener for about a year and I worked up to 3 sets of 50 and 1 minute each; I didn't notice anything negative and I actually gave it to a co-worker when I left that job. I bought an extra-heavy and continued on for a few years doing it off and on. In the last 8-10 months I've changed how much I've used it but I do notice a nagging sensation in my elbows occasionally (I haven't felt any pain today). It's funny, I avoided COC or any super high weight stuff to avoid injuries (and I think I did avoid some the majority of the time).

What I'd say at this point is, it came up a few times in this thread about a practical level of hand strength. I think there's a lot of truth in that you don't have to have a maximum vice grip, and it's debatable you're going to be using only grip strength. I think stuff like pull ups, kettle bells, thermabands, rubber bands (to practice opening hands), hand, wrist, and elbow stretches, etc. are all immensely valuable. I let a daily routine become mismanaged and I'm glad I stopped to ask.

One thing I saw a lot when I played football as a defensive linemen was guys hang their hats on different stuff; different measurements. There it was what was your max bench or what was your max squat. In reality, the sport was a lot more dynamic then that and the muscle groups needed to work well off the line were much more than how much you could lift with your leg and how much you could press out one time. I found that guys had improper form a lot, or bounced bars off of their chest; whatever the case was to gain another level of weight lifting. We were pushed too, and honestly, that was the culture. (ETA: Also, those strengths in those specific muscle groups still didn't mean guys knew how to read an offensive play or tell you how a guy actually performed in practice and then in games (or the psychology involved there) but you can guarantee when guys were sizing each other up the bench press max was brought up pretty much in the first few sentences of comparing guys).

I abandoned that when I went back to the gym in my 20's and that's why I worked out pretty much 2-3 hours a day, 4-6 days a week for a few years before deciding being generally fit and lighter was much healthier. I figured rather than maxing out certain muscle groups or throwing out how much I max benched to whatever guy; I'd have good form and balanced strength. I did fairly well in most ways other than hernias, I believe.

So anyway, that's a lot to say this.

Here's what I'm going to do.

1.) Talk to a Doctor, and get a referral. Just figure out how things are going before taking on anything else.

2.) Go through the material presented here, the different workouts from GJM, voodooman, Mr. White, caleb, John Hearne, and others have given just to get an idea of general hand fitness. I think one of the things I obviously did was over-exert one area. I also think it's debatable how much grip strength is going to help; I honestly think strengthening my wrists (crush strength isn't going to keep your wrists from rolling; it'll help but it's not going to lock them in place) will help. When I used to curl fairly heavy dumb bells; I'd start feeling pain/pressure in my wrists but my forearms and hands were fine. It was only while lifting that this happened; they're not related. So I'm going to try to find a series of healthier practices (once I make sure I'm not exacerbating anything) versus fixating on the "max bench press" of hand gun shooting.

I guess this is also the place to say this, I never got great at any sport or activity when stopping because I was hurting, Bob Vogel was mentioned and he has scars going across the web of his hand and massive callouses from repeated slide bite, etc. because he said I'll do what it takes to be the best. He's simply said (in videos put out by Panteo I've watched anyway) he grips that high knowing he's going to get slide bite because of the level of control it gives him. That's the decision he's made. If you want to be the best, that's sometimes what it takes. That being said; I don't have illusions of grandeur and I also don't think that's necessary for the level of proficiency I'm after. I'm at the point I don't want to injure myself by over-working certain areas but I'd like to keep improving any way possible. That's kind of what led to me to keep going regardless of little pains or feelings of strain here or there; which ended up here. There's certainly better ways to do this than I have been doing and I really appreciate the input I've received here. I've got 7 weeks left in this semester and one more this summer then I'm done with college. After that I think I'm going to start going back to the gym with a focus on cardio and I can start shooting regularly again.

Again from the bottom of my heart I sincerely appreciate all of the dialogue, effort, well-meaning and encouraging posts; it's been very informative.

Thanks guys and God Bless,

Brandon

[GRV]

I haven't had serious elbow issues yet, but some things in that last post I feel like commenting on.

I found that overtraining grip, just by trying to grip my gun super hard on the range and in dryfire, quickly led to finger problems for me. Namely, tendon problems in my hands. I had to stop dryfire to make it go away. It was pretty scary. I recently restarted and found it coming back, but I have reason to believe I can avoid it if I just take a less hardcore finger grip.

Despite trying to grip the shit out of the gun, I never saw significant improvements in sight tracking. No matter how much effort I put in, it was never enough to keep a stock Glock from slipping. It literally slips out of my grip and ends up angled up after recoil. I'm sure I could fix it with a strong enough grip after enough training, but very likely at the cost of chronic tendon issues for me.

I think there's a lot of truth in Vogel's "no pain, no gain" philosophy, but this is very different. Cuts, calluses, bumps and bruises are all very different from chronic joint and tendon issues. My fear is doing irreversible damage. I'm not worried about battle scars, but I am worried about being a crippled old Grandpa who can't open jars because he overdid the grip training as a young'un.

The fingers (and thus the tendons) are only one part of the modern grip. You'll see a lot of emphasis on the pec crush, even from Vogel, for good reason. The goal there is to apply inward force, i.e. perpendicular to the frame. Perpendicular force is translated into parallel force (what we care about for recoil control) through friction. So to get more parallel force we can increase the perpendicular force (more pec crush) or increase the friction. i.e. add grip tape to the right spots.

My latest experiment is to play the latter card. Pec crush alone isn't doing enough for me to make up for weaknesses in the fingers. Adding fresh grip tape seems to have a very significant positive effect for me. However, the grip tape I've been using (3M) still allows more slipping then I'd like. Moreover, it wears quickly, and when it wears down it becomes even slicker than the bare frame, making me shoot really bad. In turn, I'm trying to take friction to it's logical conclusion, at the cost of losing some skin. I've got a nasty grip tape on my G17 right now, it looks like I've glued asphalt to my gun. My hope is that pec crushing on that will allow me to get the sight tracking I need without overworking my fingers. Essentially, I'm looking to trade the joint/tendon kind of damage risk for the skin/callus kind of damage risk.

[BWT]

I haven't had serious elbow issues yet, but some things in that last post I feel like commenting on.

I found that overtraining grip, just by trying to grip my gun super hard on the range and in dryfire, quickly led to finger problems for me. Namely, tendon problems in my hands. I had to stop dryfire to make it go away. It was pretty scary. I recently restarted and found it coming back, but I have reason to believe I can avoid it if I just take a less hardcore finger grip.

Despite trying to grip the shit out of the gun, I never saw significant improvements in sight tracking. No matter how much effort I put in, it was never enough to keep a stock Glock from slipping. It literally slips out of my grip and ends up angled up after recoil. I'm sure I could fix it with a strong enough grip after enough training, but very likely at the cost of chronic tendon issues for me.

I think there's a lot of truth in Vogel's "no pain, no gain" philosophy, but this is very different. Cuts, calluses, bumps and bruises are all very different from chronic joint and tendon issues. My fear is doing irreversible damage. I'm not worried about battle scars, but I am worried about being a crippled old Grandpa who can't open jars because he overdid the grip training as a young'un.

The fingers (and thus the tendons) are only one part of the modern grip. You'll see a lot of emphasis on the pec crush, even from Vogel, for good reason. The goal there is to apply inward force, i.e. perpendicular to the frame. Perpendicular force is translated into parallel force (what we care about for recoil control) through friction. So to get more parallel force we can increase the perpendicular force (more pec crush) or increase the friction. i.e. add grip tape to the right spots.

My latest experiment is to play the latter card. Pec crush alone isn't doing enough for me to make up for weaknesses in the fingers. Adding fresh grip tape seems to have a very significant positive effect for me. However, the grip tape I've been using (3M) still allows more slipping then I'd like. Moreover, it wears quickly, and when it wears down it becomes even slicker than the bare frame, making me shoot really bad. In turn, I'm trying to take friction to it's logical conclusion, at the cost of losing some skin. I've got a nasty grip tape on my G17 right now, it looks like I've glued asphalt to my gun. My hope is that pec crushing on that will allow me to get the sight tracking I need without overworking my fingers. Essentially, I'm looking to trade the joint/tendon kind of damage risk for the skin/callus kind of damage risk.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all; in fact I strongly agree with you.

I guess what I was trying to say but didn't is; you're going to have some pain. When I worked out sore was a state of life; the muscle group just changed from day to day. It could've been calves, pecks, biceps, shoulders, back, whatever the case was. That being said, when over-done on a single area you get things like tendon issues, elbow issues, etc.

I didn't distinguish the meaning of the pain I was experiencing well enough and thus have elbow pains. Basically, in my simple understanding there's soreness/discomfort from exertion and then there's injury that can be rehabilitated and then there's continually pushing an injury until it becomes irreparable without surgery, etc. and full recovery may not be an option.

I started out I think in the first group and ended in the second group. Truthfully, I'm hoping that I'm not in the third. That's why I'm waiting to talk to a Doctor before resuming activity. When I lifted weights, I got in the third with leg press just because of the sheer amount of weight I pushed for. I assumed I had completely avowed myself of risk by avoiding maxing out. I was wrong.

But the thing is like JV said, who's really an authority on this stuff? Who knows truly, not who says they know or believes they know but truly knows? Also, each person's physiology is different which is another thing to consider. For instance, Ron Avery is quoted in the first page (and that's a good video) talking about his over a dozen surgeries, etc. because of shooting and surgeries he's had related.

I think that'd be a good divergence of topic. So, we know that repetitive stress is a thing, we know that grip strength is relatively important (over-emphasized in my opinion), it seems he uses bands to provide resistance to his hand opening and also recommends weights for developing balance and toning.

I think that's wise; I'm with you dove in the pursuit of being effective, capable, even if that means significant amounts of pain but not injuring/disabling myself.

Thanks and God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: This quote above "Essentially, I'm looking to trade the joint/tendon kind of damage risk for the skin/callus kind of damage risk." Pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about it.

ETA 2: After re-reading this. I've realized I breezed through the last paragraph too quickly in the above edit. I think there's more than one way to skin a cat and you may be onto something. Skateboardesque tape is cheap; I'll try it out whenever I get back into the swing of things.

[GRV]

Definitely on the same page. Great post.

Good luck on your recovery. It's all part of the journey.

[wtturn]

I haven't had serious elbow issues yet, but some things in that last post I feel like commenting on.



Do you lift weights?

[GRV]

Do you lift weights?

No. My workout routine has been focused on pushups and pullups. Recently, I started adding a weight vest into that mix. I say "serious" because I have noticed some almost imperceptible elbow soreness as the weight is piling up on my pushups/pullups.

[JHC]

No. My workout routine has been focused on pushups and pullups. Recently, I started adding a weight vest into that mix. I say "serious" because I have noticed some almost imperceptible elbow soreness as the weight is piling up on my pushups/pullups.

I've lifted for decades. Not really heavy as I'm not real strong but nevertheless, push ups are pretty much over for me. For some reason they hurt my right elbow worse than just about any other pushing movement. Somewhat better if using those handles instead of flattening the hand to the ground.

[wtturn]

No. My workout routine has been focused on pushups and pullups. Recently, I started adding a weight vest into that mix. I say "serious" because I have noticed some almost imperceptible elbow soreness as the weight is piling up on my pushups/pullups.

Your fingers are weak and your "pec crush" is ineffective because YOU are weak. Not trying to bust your balls, but IMO you're missing the fundamental problem behind your shooting and physical woes.

Buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-Training/dp/0982522738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455811389&sr=8-1&keywords=starting+strength

Get strong.

Profit.

[Cheap Shot]

Can someone explain the "pec crush"?

I'm assuming its when, in addition to grip, you force your hands towards each other as hard as possible. I've tried that and for me it worked OK in a stand and slow fire shoot situation (think bullseye), but in a run and gun USPSA type COF it was counter productive.

Am I missing anything?

Some great insight in this thread, been struggling with chronic hand, forearm, elbow issues for years.

[wtturn]

Can someone explain the "pec crush"?

I'm assuming its when, in addition to grip, you force your hands towards each other as hard as possible. I've tried that and for me it worked OK in a stand and slow fire shoot situation (think bullseye), but in a run and gun USPSA type COF it was counter productive.

Am I missing anything?

Some great insight in this thread, been struggling with chronic hand, forearm, elbow issues for years.

You're correct. Think of a chest fly machine at the gym. Now pretend there's a pistol in between the handles.

5997

This technique does indeed reduce mobility and introduce unwanted tension in the shoulders/traps/arms.

[GRV]

Your fingers are weak and your "pec crush" is ineffective because YOU are weak. Not trying to bust your balls, but IMO you're missing the fundamental problem behind your shooting and physical woes.

Buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-Training/dp/0982522738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455811389&sr=8-1&keywords=starting+strength

Get strong.

Profit.

...Duh. If you think I don't know this, then you don't know me :p

If I had the schedule time and the money, I'd be getting coached in olympic style lifting right now. But alas, I don't, and what I'm doing is the best I can do right now.


Can someone explain the "pec crush"?

I'm assuming its when, in addition to grip, you force your hands towards each other as hard as possible. I've tried that and for me it worked OK in a stand and slow fire shoot situation (think bullseye), but in a run and gun USPSA type COF it was counter productive.

Am I missing anything?

Some great insight in this thread, been struggling with chronic hand, forearm, elbow issues for years.

That's it. Using your body, i.e. pecs, to grip the gun. Works better if you have more upper body strength, which I do not.

[ChrisLapre]

If you want to increase hard/grip strength and endurance, learn to use kettle bells .... Correctly. There are tons of people teaching them now , but not necessarily correct.
Not only will this assist in curing your grip problem but it will add to your overall fitness. The better the shape, usually the better you'll get at shooting. I would recommend seeing a Dr. first about the elbow pain, or several weeks of rest. Then start a solid program.

[Newportl]

Great thread. I'm new here and ran across this as my first topic. I've been lifting for years and recently started adding in Fat Grips and CoC for grip work. Despite knowing better I wound up with "itis" in both elbows.

I've found Kelley Starrett's voodoo floss technique to work well for me, but it does require a second person to do it correctly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dgbCDtqdlI