Forum Shilling - your opinion on the matter?

[voodoo_man]

When you see someone posting something on a forum do you instantly believe that person is trying to shill their *insert site, product, other money making endeavor* or do you automatically assume they are trying to post solid info based on the topic of that specific thread?

I am not talking about someone just appearing on a forum and posting links to their website "please check out this site!!" or whatever. I am referring to contributing members posting information and links specifically/directly relating to the topic of a specific thread.

Example:

Thread is started about a specific item, the widget.

Few members post random opinions.

One member posts his review of this specific widget, long time member with many informative posts.

Another member posts his video review of this widget, recently made his account and only posts his videos, no actual content other than that.

Which members are shilling? Which members are trying to generate hits for their site?

[Tamara]

I'm not sure what you consider "shilling", though? :confused:

[Jared]

I won't consider buying a product unless it either fulfills a need or a want that I have. After that, reviews and stuff come into consideration, but I'm very very leery of wonder products. When someone comes along and swears up and down that a new rear sight does everything except cure cancer, I throw that review out. The obviously over the top stuff is just too obvious and doesn't impress me.

Also, I try to do a little research on who's doing the review and who their circles of friends are. I got burned pretty good some years back by a seller, and after a little research (post burn) I felt like the biggest fool on the web.

So, all that said, for me to trust a review, it needs to be low on hyperbole and heavy on facts. The more disclosure the reviewer gives about what interests they have in the product, the better.

[The Apprentice]

Really doesnt matter so long as your honest about it. If I'm not interested I stop reading the thread If it is a custom maker showing what they are doing and looking for input I think it should be encouraged. Ultimately we control what we click on so if you feel your time is wasted move on to a different thread you dont have to participate.

[11B10]

I'm not sure what you consider "shilling", though? :confused:


This ^^^^ as I'm not sure what YOUR definition is, either.

[voodoo_man]

An Internet shill is someone who promotes something or someone online for pay without divulging that they are associated with the entity they shill for. A shill might create a Facebook or Twitter account, set up a blog or simply comment through these and other channels, such as discussion forums.

Thats the definition of an internet shill, essentially someone who profits in some way from promotion.

[Tamara]

Thats the definition of an internet shill, essentially someone who profits in some way from promotion.

I guess the only way it would bother me is if:


The commercial interest was not disclosed, and/or
The poster in question never participated in the forum except to pimp their shit.

[voodoo_man]

So, an astroturfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing)?

Same difference I guess.

[voodoo_man]

If we're talking about astroturfing, then I'm not OK with it.

Astroturfer wouldnt participate though, given the description.

[orionz06]

Question everything. If the person is part of the community, wherever that is, it's easy to do so. If it's someone new that's normally the litmus test.

[RevolverRob]

Guys!!! There is this great new thing out there...and I am telling you right now, I am shilling for it....

I am shilling for common sense, intellect, good training, and logic. You can get them from your local high quality instructor and your brain.

If you discover any insights related to this training methodology, otherwise known as, Rob's Philosophy™, please issue a check made out to, "Rob's Shilling to Avoid Killing" for $19.99 + $5.01 shipping and handling and send it to me. I also take Paypal at ShillingNotKilling@Clickbait.com

Thanks!

-Rob

[JR1572]

My local forum had a shilling problem. One of the administrators was employed by a local training company that had a huge presence on the site pushing classes and several widgets. Anyone spoke against or questioned anything about said company got burned at the stake like a heretic.

JR1572

[LSP552]

I guess the only way it would bother me is if:


The commercial interest was not disclosed, and/or
The poster in question never participated in the forum except to pimp their shit.


Me too.

[BWT]

Guys!!! There is this great new thing out there...and I am telling you right now, I am shilling for it....

I am shilling for common sense, intellect, good training, and logic. You can get them from your local high quality instructor and your brain.

If you discover any insights related to this training methodology, otherwise known as, Rob's Philosophy™, please issue a check made out to, "Rob's Shilling to Avoid Killing" for $19.99 + $5.01 shipping and handling and send it to me. I also take Paypal at ShillingNotKilling@Clickbait.com

Thanks!

-Rob

I gave this guy my money; I feel better already. More confident, faster, thicker hair, I don't wear glasses any more. I'm giving him my life savings right now; I just wish I had done this sooner.

;)

I think if you're upfront about what you are or aren't being paid and disclose all relationships ahead of time; you're good.

I think when you're making money or receiving publicity that may make you money (YouTube) and don't disclose relationships you're shilling. In your example; I'm unsure.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Clobbersaurus]

I tend to look at the members history on the forum and their content. If it's a person that is a regular contributor to the forum then I usually pay more attention.

If the person just posts a quick link to their own site or a link with an abbreviated review, in order to get traffic, then I generally tend to think less of the forum member. if you are going to use a forum to generate traffic to your own site fine, but at least have the decency to post your full review in the forum.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't like it, to the point that I avoid linking to stuff I've written so that I don't come off as one of those people who participates in an online community primarily to drive traffic to their own site.

Because that shit will get you shilled on the streeets.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

In retrospect I really should have said I don't use the software tool package my employer provides to engage in surreptitious marketing.

Because that kit will get you shilled on the streets.




I know it was late but I had to throw it up.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, I can start a single thread or something where I just link to everything I write, with a paragraph or two as a preview so people can decide whether they want to commit to an entire click, I just don't want to come off as exploiting the community here for traffic.

I mentioned to SLG that I could do that but then I wasn't sure where to put it, so I just stalled because throwing links into random threads just seemed too self-serving.

But if people would want to see the articles I write, which vary from serious technical reviews to very not serious articles which are technically reviews, I certainly have no objection to posting them.

[Josh Runkle]

I just simply ignore new products, unless I can test it for free.

New gun at the range for sale, and they're selling me hard because I buy a lot of guns? Well, I already know them and they know me, so I'm reluctant but not turned off right away. I usually ask to shoot their rental for free, and I'll give fair and honest feedback.

Obviously this doesn't work with stuff like slings, sights, etc., and so I usually either buy it and try it if it seems like a good design and is cheap, or I wait to try someone else's at the range or in a class, or I wait until an SME I trust swears by this new product...then I disregard that person until several SMEs are on board.

For example: I've tried other people's red dots on pistols, but, I can't actually borrow their gun for 3 months, so I've simply waited 5-7 years until now when I'm finally getting on board, because the kinks seem like they're being worked out, major manufacturers are supporting the product, multiple SMEs have lots of history behind them now, and they seem viable. So, now I'll finally get on board.

Anyhow: I just really don't listen to a single voice. Someone on this site that I trust swears I should switch out my extractor on a perfectly functioning firearm? Disregard.

Someone swears I need a new holster when I'm happy with what I have? Disregard.

[rob_s]

If the person has a blog or a website, I assume shilling. If they don't expressly state whether they got it for free or for other consideration (like a discount), I assume shilling. If they get defensive about being called a shill, I assume shilling.

[guymontag]

If the person has a blog or a website, I assume shilling. If they don't expressly state whether they got it for free or for other consideration (like a discount), I assume shilling. If they get defensive about being called a shill, I assume shilling.

I agree with the above, and I would add that I'm (sadly) not the target audience for forum shilling.

Showcasing your new tactical timmy holster, new forged from meteorite defensive knife, new reportedly unreliable and then reportedly reliable Beretta carry gun, new lighter by .01 ounce AR15 rail? I don't care - I've already got what I need and it works. Variety is the spice of life, but I'm enjoying variety in other aspects of my life more than gear in this one. ;)

[Tamara]

Since fear of being shilled at is more widespread than I'd previously assumed, I'm offering a new shilling-detection browser plugin. For details on how to download, paypal $25 to GullibleIsNotInTheDictionary@gmail.com.

[JAD]

I selfishly wish that you would post links here. Due to time constraints, I don't routinely visit other websites. So unless you (or someone else) posts a link here, I almost certainly won't read it. Which is too bad (for me), since I really enjoy your writing.
I agree and would apply the same to Tam. While I visit her blog often, it's not daily, and though I thumb through old posts I often miss stuff.

[Totem Polar]

The thing about shilling, is the whole thing is supposed to be surreptitious. The P-Fers who have something to offer, from words to widgets are uniformly A) right upfront about any affiliation and B) pretty damn good at whatever it is they do. I'd be pretty unhappy with any sort of attitude, either implied or codified, that limited the ability of our SMEs and productive members to share their shit with us.

Anyone doing that sort of thing under the table is probably going to get called out and beat down, so I voted "ain't no shilling 'round here", myself. OMMV and all that.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I agree and would apply the same to Tam. While I visit her blog often, it's not daily, and though I thumb through old posts I often miss stuff.

I tend to agree with this statement pretty strongly.

I don't know if it would be an issue for Tom; but maybe a sub board like a Writers and Reviewers Nook or some such. Members approved by the SME board or Tom could have their own threads to put their stuff out here where some of us lazy SOBs would see it more reliably. Just a thought.

I generally think that talking about stuff you make, sell, get for review or discount is awesome! More data points are more betterer. But, not disclosing product affiliation, kickbacks or discounts is unethical.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[orionz06]

Looks like shill is gonna replace derp for the word to beat into the ground?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[Tamara]

Looks like shill is gonna replace derp for the word to beat into the ground?

That would be baller.

[okie john]

I guess the only way it would bother me is if:


The commercial interest was not disclosed, and/or
The poster in question never participated in the forum except to pimp their shit.


This is a very good definition: the first point defines the shill, the second helps reveal who they are.

Shills are stupid, dishonest people who think that they can fool others. But as soon as people spot shilling, they call it out, which destroys any credibility that either the shill or the product may have had. In the end, shilling actually reverses the progress made by any other growth strategies that a brand may have, which seems like a fair trade to me.

I've seen several products shilled here and on other forums, but they were all exposed and reviled pretty much instantly.


Okie John

[rob_s]

I believe that for someone to be a Shill they have to be concealing the fact, by definition.

Many are concealing the fact from themselves, as well as the greater community.

[Wondering Beard]

That would be baller.

What's baller?

[rob_s]

Rob, what do you mean by concealing from themselves?

I don't think some people even realize they're on the take. They get free stuff, or discounted stuff, the free-ness of it colors their impressions, they confuse being flattered with being asked with actual opinions about the product itself, etc.

I also think this goes on WAY beyond the initial starter-shill level too. I am of the opinion that a LOT of bigger name online personalities are "on the take" from where I sit but would never even realize it themselves.

This is something I have a little bit of insight into from my blogger/writer days. I kind of caught myself, early, displaying the symptoms. It's pretty clear to me that a lot of these guys lack that introspection, or are so caught up in the attention and free stuff that they don't care.

[Tamara]

I often find myself aspiring to olympian levels of cool detachment and reflective self-awareness. But then I realize it would mean I'd need to work a snide put-down into every post and the feeling goes away.

[voodoo_man]

I often find myself aspiring to olympian levels of cool detachment and reflective self-awareness. But then I realize it would mean I'd need to work a snide put-down into every post and the feeling goes away.

You mean you don't?

[Tamara]

You mean you don't?

Three-quarters, tops. I'm just not world-weary and cynical enough to transcend to the next level.

[RevolverRob]

I don't think some people even realize they're on the take. They get free stuff, or discounted stuff, the free-ness of it colors their impressions, they confuse being flattered with being asked with actual opinions about the product itself, etc.

I also think this goes on WAY beyond the initial starter-shill level too. I am of the opinion that a LOT of bigger name online personalities are "on the take" from where I sit but would never even realize it themselves.

This is something I have a little bit of insight into from my blogger/writer days. I kind of caught myself, early, displaying the symptoms. It's pretty clear to me that a lot of these guys lack that introspection, or are so caught up in the attention and free stuff that they don't care.


I often find myself aspiring to olympian levels of cool detachment and reflective self-awareness. But then I realize it would mean I'd need to work a snide put-down into every post and the feeling goes away.

I just aspire to get free stuff to shill...But I haven't figured out how to reduce myself to those levels yet.

Maybe some day.

-Rob

[Clobbersaurus]

Three-quarters, tops. I'm just not world-weary and cynical enough to transcend to the next level.

Spend more time on Facebook, ARFcom and M4Carbine.net, that will push you to the next level in short order.

[Painkiller7]

I'm still fairly new so my opinion doesn't have much clout, but my viewpoint after doing some research on the poster would be looking at the review itself. I feel like I have enough knowledge to differentiate between someone looking to profit and someone with the intent to inform. If it's made out to be the "end all, be all" with absolutely nothing negative to say, I automatically assume shilling and turn away. In my opinion, no matter how good the product, there WILL be some sort of drawback.
I'm also the type of person who will research a product for months before I pull the trigger.

[Pikes]

I don't think some people even realize they're on the take. They get free stuff, or discounted stuff, the free-ness of it colors their impressions, they confuse being flattered with being asked with actual opinions about the product itself, etc.

I also think this goes on WAY beyond the initial starter-shill level too. I am of the opinion that a LOT of bigger name online personalities are "on the take" from where I sit but would never even realize it themselves.....

+1 for your observation rob_S

That`s why I personally disregard any comments from people that receive anything for free to "evaluate"
I am probably more cynical than most people on this site - a product of my environment. It happens when you live in war zone.

If I cant test something in person , and bought the product on (researched) internet recommendations and it turns out to be a lemon - I just write it off as school money... Better luck next time.

[Hambo]

I just aspire to get free stuff to shill...But I haven't figured out how to reduce myself to those levels yet.

Maybe some day.

-Rob

I'm with you, brother. The problem is that while I would gladly accept swag to shill for a company, I would like to retain a shred of dignity. Hence Taurus sending me a box of Curves wouldn't get me to shill, but if Colt sent me a Combat Unit Rail gun I'd break the internet shilling for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr0tMTd5D3g

[rob_s]

I'm with you, brother. The problem is that while I would gladly accept swag to shill for a company, I would like to retain a shred of dignity. Hence Taurus sending me a box of Curves wouldn't get me to shill, but if Colt sent me a Combat Unit Rail gun I'd break the internet shilling for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr0tMTd5D3g

This is kind of what led me to "retiring" from the gun-writing business. There is an implied level of "you will promote us/me/our product" in almost every single transaction. Even the guys that reach out and say "oh, no, we're different, we know you have a reputation for honest opinions, and that's what we're looking for" wind up getting pissed off at the most inane negative comments. Like the major manufacturer for whom I wrote a glowing review but got mad because I said I didn't like the A2 grip on their rifle.

It gets even worse when you start to look at the guys that are industry "friends" and how they start to wolfpack up to defend one another. Holster company A decides that they like belt-maker B and they start sticking up for each other. it's generally not even denied, and presented as as "brotherhood" or a "community" or whatever and presented as a positive. if the consumer is not aware of it, however, they may get the wrong idea. and, many of these wolfpacks like to use their clout to shout down the NKOTB, who might actually be innovating instead of resting on name recognition and screaming all over the internet "I/We were first!"

I was recently asked by a friend why I and an industry guy ZZ had polar opposite opinions about a particular gun celebrity XX. My response was "of course ZZ likes XX, XX helps him sell his shit". And truthfully, I don't think either guy is aware of what he's doing.

This extends into the celebrity trainer endorsements as well. I've heard these compared to sports endorsements, but that's a bit of a stretch. if "Gunfighter" Alpha is no longer actually, you know, fighting with guns, then the net risk to him in using the product he endorses is essentially nil. However, a sports professional who is still active, for example a pro bass fisherman, can't afford to use sub-standard gear no matter how much the endorsement pays because he won't be bankable long if he doesn't keep wining tournaments and he'll lose other endorsements current and future.

The list goes on and on. Regardless of whether you believe this is an "industry" or a "community", it is a business. All day, every day. And while there may be guys that got into the business for the right reasons, it's goddamn hard to maintain that level of integrity for long. You know what they say about the road to hell... And if you remove dissenting opinions from your field of view, you quickly become a naked emperor. Look at the various SMEs that won't participate on gun forums. You don't actually think that's because signal:noise, do you? F that, they just don't like being questioned and if they retreat to their fiefdoms they don't have to be.