A shirt pocket pistol

[serialsolver]

When I was a kid that was supposed to have a note from my dad saying it was ok to wear his uniform, the old heads told me I needed a shirt pocket pistol. Sumpthin you can get to with ithere hand. Back then it could be a vest pocket colt or a baby browning. I've been kinda revisiting the idea. I got a naa mini revolver but after some informal work I've ruled it out. I don't want to add another caliber so I'm kinda set on the 22lr cause I got two ammo cans full of it. I know a 22 is iffy for self defense but this is a bug to a bug and a step above a knife. Also I kinda want something small to plink with. I done talked myself out of a Taurus pt22. So what I'm looking at now is a berreta m21a. I did a search but didn't find anything on the 21a does anyone have any info about them? Am I missing any other options?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

Ruger LCP is small small small.

[PD Sgt.]

Seecamp .32 comes to mind.

[JHC]

Long ago in a then NPE state I had good service from a 21A. I'd like another.

[Chuck Haggard]

Claude Werner has worked a lot with the Berettas and Taurus .22s, the Beretta 21 was the platform for his "Little Old Man Gun" idea.

[Totem Polar]

Kel tec P32 is crazy light, FWIW. Coming from a guy that has two PT-22 Tauri, you don't want to rely on them. Trust me. If you can find a good 21, that's a decent solution.

[BN]

I done talked myself out of a Taurus pt22.

Excellent. I have one that can't get through 1 mag without a malfunction. It had fired out of battery also. That was fun. :(

[P.E. Kelley]

The 21A is a good shooter as has been reliable. For pocket carry I used some epoxy to build up the area around the mag release.
I ain't gonna reload it anyway...


http://youtu.be/-c_-OQfu7As

[Hambo]

The Beretta 21, Seecamp, and LCP have very similar dimensions and weights, so to me caliber would be the deciding factor with bigger being better.

[SteveB]

The Beretta 21, Seecamp, and LCP have very similar dimensions and weights, so to me caliber would be the deciding factor with bigger being better.

S&W Bodyguard .380 weighs 12.3 oz

[Tamara]

Seecamp .32 comes to mind.

Only problem with the LWS 32 is that it's a brick and weighs down a pocket something awful.

[GuanoLoco]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_P-32

6.6 oz (187 g) unloaded; 9.4 oz (266 g) fully loaded. 0.75" wide.

Works, centerfire, ~30 cal and claims of 18" penetration with ball ammo.

Hard to beat for this purpose.

[JR1572]

The pockets on our uniform shirts are too small to shove a BUG in. Behind the shirt attached to armor would be how I would do it.

JR1572

[Jim Watson]

I once had a Beretta 21 that was NOT reliable with any .22 LR available at the time. Dealer took it back and gave me a store credit.

My present "invisible pistol" is a Kel Tec .32.
I bet you could trade some of those .22s for enough .32s to get you up and running.

I have shot some of the miniature .380s. The Kel Tec and Ruger are nasty little kickers and the S&W Plastic Bodyguard is for some reason worse.

A guy here sold his NAA because he just could not stand having a reminder of his ex-wife, who gave it to him, around.
I sold him my CZ 45 .25 ACP and he is delighted with that. He calls such sub-smallbores his "fifteen foot switchblade."

[LSP972]

The Iver Johnson TP-22, a semi-clone of the Walther TPH, would fill your bill; although its a bit heavy for a lightweight uniform shirt pocket. One of the heavier garbadine-like materials would hold it fine.

I really like this little critter; it is totally reliable with CCI Mini-Mags. I cut down one of the three magazines that came with it, which significantly reduces its 'footprint' for concealing it. It has a quite heavy initial DA pull; you aren't going to get a finger-check/desk pop with it.

Like any small .22 pistol, there are issues. Primarily, slide bite. It will bite you big-time if you don't watch your grip. It does not like standard-velocity ammo; period. And you don't see many of them.

I haven't carried this one much at all, but it would definitely fill the bill if I were wanting/needing a deep-concealment mouse pistol. I believe there is a definite niche there not met by current manufacturers. The Beretta 21 has a uber-fat grip that, while aiding in controlling/shooting it, sucks for concealment. And in regards to the various Kel-Tec/Tauri/etc. baby .22s out there… or anything made by them, for that matter... not for me, thanks.

If Glock would make the G42 in .22LR… then, we'd have something. I'd buy a couple of them.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I had a PT-22 that was an absolute horror. It would jam or eject live rounds. It actually ejected a live round and the slide slammed on the round and bent it. I shudder if it had caught the primer rim. I also shot a friend's Beretta - it tended to jam. I have no faith in the small 22s. I have a NAA Mini in 22 Mag with a 1 5/8 barrel and a Mini in 22S (amazing small) if I want the smallest possible gun.

[PD Sgt.]

Only problem with the LWS 32 is that it's a brick and weighs down a pocket something awful.

I used to put mine in a pocket holster in a back pocket and never had an issue, but it may be a bit much for a shirt pocket.

I never thought I would hear a pistol that small described as a "brick". LOL

[41magfan]

These three examples weigh within an ounce of each other. The Beretta (10.6 oz) and the Browning (9.8 oz) are obviously a bit smaller than the LCP (9.5 oz), but the disparity in ballistic performance coupled with the Ruger's "shootability" makes the choice pretty obvious.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/540/zqOZvB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0zqOZvBj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/633/MHNoYX.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlMHNoYXj)

[serialsolver]

41magfan, thanks for that side by side comparison. That really helps a lot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[serialsolver]

Thanks folks y'all have given me a lot to think about and I've been thinking a lot about it. I've ruled out the 22lr after reminiscing about shooting my 22 conversion on my glock 22 with all them ammo problems. So I'm kinda back at square one. I like the S&W bodyguard but y'all noted problems. I like the rm380 but don't wannabe a beta tester. Leaning towards the lcp but I've always wanted a vest pocket colt. I'm gonna let it simmer awhile.

This chart helps.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22wLsyYEkTOMDU4MjJlNTktOTRlZi00NTJkLWE0MGMtZmEwN GFlMWE3ZDlm/view?pref=2&pli=1


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.mouseguns.com/pocketautocomparison.pdf

I knew I had the URL somewhere - doesn't really have the littlest ones though.

[Buckshot]

I'll pile on to the KelTec P32 pile. It is thinner & lighter than the LCP & P3AT (or anything else being suggested here), carries 1 more round & is arguably more reliable. YMMV & usual KelTec QC issues apply.

[SLG]

None of these guns are what I would call dependable, but you already knew that.

My LCP (sample of 1) and my S&W 380 (sample of 1), have been excellent, and I find them very easy to shoot well. The S&W annoys me because I don't agree with permanently mating guns or glass to electronics, but if you pretend there is no laser on it, that works out.

You've already ruled it out, but my 21A, back in the day, was extremely unreliable. Went back to Beretta a few times, never ran worth a damn. I've been considering the NAA Pug, based on a thread that JodyH posted in, back when he was posting on the forum. Why did you rule it out? I'm not crazy about the SA aspect of it, but it is orders of magnitude smaller and lighter than the competition. The shape allows for some interesting carry options as well.

I've mostly come down on the side of, if you can't fit an airweight J frame into the role, than a knife is where it's at. The Pug *may* fill a small niche slightly in between that idea, idk. You can always get it with both cylinders, so you can use up your cans of .22lr.

[Al T.]

I once had a Beretta 21 that was NOT reliable with any .22 LR available at the time.

Yep, me too. Actually a lady friends, but same results. In the now and here, I'd probably "fluff and buff" it, ala the KTOG bunch. My KEL-TEC 7.65 Browning needed the "scrub the high spots vigorously with Emory cloth" treatment, but ran/runs fine afterwards. The P32 drops in a pocket with a wrinkle....

[serialsolver]

Slg, the mini revolver is so small I can't get enough of a hold on it to control it, during cocking or firing. That lack of control keeps me from using it for last effort of defense. My ideal is to put a itty bitty mouse gun in a threats face, neck, upper chest or arm pit and empty it fast. If that don't get the threat off me then I'm gonna use I as an impact weapon. I can't do that with the mini revolver.

After starting this thread I noticed the bigger rubber grips naa sales. I might give those grips a try.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[41magfan]

I'm into my third, thousand round case of .380 ammo and haven't experienced a single malfunction with 4 different LCP's.

In years past, I've experienced good reliability with the centerfire (.25 ACP) Beretta's. If you can find a good example of a Beretta 950 or one of the original DA Model 20's in .25 ACP, it's a decent option if you can live with the smaller cartridge.

Not too long after Hornady came out with the 35 grain XTP in the .25 ACP, I worked a homicide where an abusive boyfriend got injected with one. It took him a double handful of seconds to expire, but he lost interest in kicking her ass pretty quickly.

This is the recovered bullet.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/JsJO1g.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnJsJO1gj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/921/drWmOq.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pldrWmOqj)

[41magfan]

Slg, the mini revolver is so small I can't get enough of a hold on it to control it, during cocking or firing. That lack of control keeps me from using it for last effort of defense. My ideal is to put a itty bitty mouse gun in a threats face, neck, upper chest or arm pit and empty it fast. If that don't get the threat off me then I'm gonna use I as an impact weapon. I can't do that with the mini revolver.

After starting this thread I noticed the bigger rubber grips naa sales. I might give those grips a try.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The rubber slip-on grip (not the smaller 2-panel rubber version) is a bit of a game changer, believe it or not. The single finger you have on the grip actually stays put with this little rubber boot and offers a modicum of control.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/838/pict0944.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/napict0944j)

[iWander]

+++1 on the Kel-Tec 32. Put the factory belt clip on it & you'll forget it's there. I used to wear one clipped to my inner belt between it & my duty belt. It was 100% reliable, accurate at realistic distances & very low recoil.

[Hambo]

My personal sample of mouse guns has been two Seecamp LWS .32s, a KelTec .32, and an LCP. All of them have worked well. The Seecamps are heavy for what they are, and takedown is a PITA. I carried it in a rear pants pocket, and for that type of carry I think steel is the way to go. I had a 10 round magazine for the KelTec that made me feel slightly better about .32. In the end I'd rank them all by caliber: .380 first, .32 second, and a sharp stick over anything else.

[psalms144.1]

I must be the most contrary dude ever, as I've had TONS of problem Glocks, but my Beretta 21s (3 of them) all ran great with CCI Stingers. Having said that, if the P32 had been available at the time, that would have been the obvious choice for me. Now the P32 or LCP would be my top choices.

[JAD]

I haven't handled an LCP but am intrigued by the form factor for a tertiary role. I watched on television as one of the Guns & Ammo guys shot one, and it looked like his support hand was scary close to the muzzle. Is that a legitimate concern, or is it not that big a deal?

[iWander]

Should only be a possible issue if you have Sasquatch sized hands & you place your support hand on the front of the trigger guard instead of on your primary hand.

[SLG]

Slg, the mini revolver is so small I can't get enough of a hold on it to control it, during cocking or firing. That lack of control keeps me from using it for last effort of defense. My ideal is to put a itty bitty mouse gun in a threats face, neck, upper chest or arm pit and empty it fast. If that don't get the threat off me then I'm gonna use I as an impact weapon. I can't do that with the mini revolver.

After starting this thread I noticed the bigger rubber grips naa sales. I might give those grips a try.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The rubber grips on my NAA are really excellent. Don't think that the gun will be emptied "fast" though. This is the thing I hate about carrying a tiny SA revolver. Too much fine manipulation for me to think it will work well under stress and physical contact.

[Chuck Haggard]

In years past, I've experienced good reliability with the centerfire (.25 ACP) Beretta's. If you can find a good example of a Beretta 950 or one of the original DA Model 20's in .25 ACP, it's a decent option if you can live with the smaller cartridge.


I know several people over the years who made a training/carry pair of the Beretta 21s in .22lr and .25acp, the .22 for training on the cheap and the .25 for carry due to being really, really reliable.

[41magfan]

I haven't handled an LCP but am intrigued by the form factor for a tertiary role. I watched on television as one of the Guns & Ammo guys shot one, and it looked like his support hand was scary close to the muzzle. Is that a legitimate concern, or is it not that big a deal?

With a pistol of this size and weight, use of the support hand isn't really beneficial at the most relevant distances. I train and shoot my LCP's with one hand about 95% of the time.

[serialsolver]

The rubber slip-on grip (not the smaller 2-panel rubber version) is a bit of a game changer, believe it or not. The single finger you have on the grip actually stays put with this little rubber boot and offers a modicum of control.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/838/pict0944.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/napict0944j)

Thanks for the tip. I got the rubber grips on the Mimi revolver and I'm going to give them a try. So far I think this is going to work for what I want.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SeriousStudent]

Another former Seecamp 32 owner here. Perfect reliability with the as-recommended Silvertips.

I got around the weight issue by carrying it inside a carefully reinforced Dunhill cigarette box. I taped the inside with fiberglass tape, and taped three small pieces of closed cell foam inside to hold it steady.

Not horrifically fast to draw, but it got inside some interesting establishments. "Oh, cigarettes."

Hope that helps.

And now I want to snag one of those Iver Johnson Walther clones.

[LockedBreech]

I have found my LCP to be the ultimate end answer to the vest pocket question and mine is a nearly constant companion. It's ugly, it feels cheap, and it's garbage to shoot, but it's light as a feather and chucks a .380, and I've never had a failure.

[SLG]

I have found my LCP to be the ultimate end answer to the vest pocket question and mine is a nearly constant companion. It's ugly, it feels cheap, and it's garbage to shoot, but it's light as a feather and chucks a .380, and I've never had a failure.

So...how do you carry it?

[LockedBreech]

So...how do you carry it?

It's usually the "toss in the pocket on the way to the gas station" gun in my front jeans pocket in a Desantis Nemesis. Not ideal, but I've got a Walther PPS usually as the primary most of the time.

It's sometimes the only carry if I'm wearing more light/tight fitting clothes.

[theJanitor]

Another former Seecamp 32 owner here. Perfect reliability with the as-recommended Silvertips.

I got around the weight issue by carrying it inside a carefully reinforced Dunhill cigarette box. I taped the inside with fiberglass tape, and taped three small pieces of closed cell foam inside to hold it steady.

Not horrifically fast to draw, but it got inside some interesting establishments. "Oh, cigarettes."

Hope that helps.


I will start smoking again, just so I can do this. I've been wanting a seecamp for a long time. I think you're supposed to avoid serial numbers under 32000, or something like that.

I've been using a custom Colt Pocketlite, and it's been a great performer. Pretty small, to boot
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h30/grandprixboy/1A54E248-AC48-4F52-87D1-D021A02CF3C3.png.jpeg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/grandprixboy/media/1A54E248-AC48-4F52-87D1-D021A02CF3C3.png.jpeg.html)

[DanPop]

I have a Diamondback DB380, good little pistol. LCP at $199 is a steal at Palmetto State Armory right now.

[gale155]

I have a Diamondback DB380, good little pistol. LCP at $199 is a steal at Palmetto State Armory right now.

A retired federal LEO recently convinced me to try a Diamondback DB9 G4, and at the price point I'm super impressed with it so far. I wanted a 9mm for pocket carry but didn't want to shell out big bucks for a Rohrbaugh...if I could even find one. I got the nickel-boron slide version, and the fit, finish and machining is perfect. I've always been a little leery of pocket carrying a striker-fired pistol, and like the idea of DB's "zero-energy" striker system. As a bonus, the recoil is much less than I expected, and 100 rounds in a single session is certainly doable.

I've tried to pocket carry my P365, but it's just too heavy for my tastes.