Safe an M4 during a reload?

[SLG]

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/02/13/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-35/


Best explanation yet. As I said in the comments, there is no question that it is slower to reload if you safe the weapon first. The issue is whether that matters or not.

I have only talked to Mike once, but the more I see from him, the more I want to take a class.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm cool with that, it's as reasonable an explanation as anyone justifying it the other way. I'm just curious if it's absolutely platform-dependent ("I always safe an AR-15 when I reload it") or does he advocate safeing Kalashnikovs and shotguns while reloading as well?

[SLG]

I'm cool with that, it's as reasonable an explanation as anyone justifying it the other way. I'm just curious if it's absolutely platform-dependent ("I always safe an AR-15 when I reload it") or does he advocate safeing Kalashnikovs and shotguns while reloading as well?

I can't speak for Pannone, but the way McNamara explains it, and I think Panone as well, yes, you would want to safe any long gun when reloading it. Some are more ergonomic than others, but the issue as I have heard it explained, is the safety hedge to you and your teammates, vs. the raw speed of an off safe reload. Doctrine that no doubt comes from having lots of dudes wearing lots of gear, fighting in confined spaces and being more likely to bump into each other or have the enemy impact them. That situation makes an ND much more likely than when shooting on a range.

[Chance]

Patrick McNamara is a big advocate of this, as is Frank Proctor, who demo'd putting the safety on after every string of fire (http://soldiersystems.net/2015/07/04/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-15/). Hackathorn has come down on the other side of the debate, saying (http://soldiersystems.net/2015/10/10/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-14/) that might not be feasible due to where the safety is on the weapon, which is what Jay asked.

[BehindBlueI's]

I would suggest that the number of times the absolute speed of a reload matters is very rare. I would also suggest the number of times were an AD would be a real big effing deal is much higher. I've been sloppy with this with the 870, personally. It's admittedly a bad habit and it's exacerbated by it being the weapon I spend the least time practicing manipulation of and the rather awkward placement of the safety. So this is a good reminder even if talking about the AR platform.

[El Cid]

I learned this years ago in a McNamara class. There is no cost of time in my experience. I also spoke with a DEVGRU member who said they tested it with shot timers and reached the same conclusion. That thumb isn't doing anything anyway.

[abu fitna]

I was also taught to safe whenever not immediately engaging and continue to believe it is the best ingrained habit to build, for multiple reasons - on any long arm where it is possible (AR, HK, SIG, etc)

Unfortunately, this is not the same option on the AK platform and its derivatives due to placement of safety and the interference of safety with bolt (on variants that do not lock bolt back.)

[navyman8903]

I only safe an M4 personally when I'm done firing, putting it up, or breaking cheek weld with a loaded weapon. I keep the safety off when reloading. I know it's probably not a huge time difference if any, but applying the safety means there's no immediate contact and I'm transitioning from "Up in the primary ready to slay bodies" to a ready position. But I know there are other ways of doing things, that's just what works best for me honestly.

[MVS]

Being left handed, I am slow on the reload of a AR type platform anyway. In a McNamara class was the first time I had heard of putting one on safe while reloading. I will hopefully be training with Pannone again this year so that was a timely article for me.

[SLG]

I learned this years ago in a McNamara class. There is no cost of time in my experience. I also spoke with a DEVGRU member who said they tested it with shot timers and reached the same conclusion. That thumb isn't doing anything anyway.

I assure you, at the fastest levels of M4 shooting, there is a time difference. Unless your hands are so big that you require no shift whatsoever to safe the weapon, there will always be a difference. Most guys, in any unit, do not shoot at the level I am concerned with, be it pistols or carbines. I'm not going to argue the point all day, but plenty of professionals will tell you that they can shoot a .45 as fast and accurately as a 9mm as well. And they probably can.

The point was that the time difference is not the most important issue in deciding what technique to use.

[BWT]

To ask an open-ended question.

If you're doing an emergency reload; what is the line of thinking? You're performing the action of shooting to lock the bolt back; I'd think you be more concerned with the magazine ejecting from the gun (which occupies your firing hand) grabbing a fresh mag, loading the mag, and then hitting the bolt release. After that if there's no threat then safe. I'm assuming since the gun is being shot until empty; you're shooting at a threat/target, etc. The safety selector in an AR won't prevent hammer follow and it's feasible that your trigger finger is on the magazine release still.

What's the sequence of events?

With an AK, it would be safe, eject magazine, insert magazine, unsafe to chamber a round then re-safe?

Would it be in an AR fire, bolt lock, safe, eject magazine, load magazine, release bolt, and then unsafe to resume firing? Your finger has to leave the trigger guard for at least part of the process to eject the magazine.

A tactical reload I understand because the gun may already be on safe. It's not necessary to unsafe the gun.

I'm in over my head as far as peer level but I'm just thinking about how much safety it adds.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: I have a world of respect for these guys, but they can't enable/disable a safety on the predominantly used striker fired sidearm and yet that is still considered safe.

I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning for it an rifle and also not seeing how it's any different than the sidearms they're carrying.

[Chuck Haggard]

Your striker fired handgun never hangs on a sling. They also typically have a trigger that is a bit heavier and has more slack in it before the bang hits.

[Chris Rhines]

I tested this the last time I had my AR out, and found that setting the safety costs me about 0.3s on an emergency reload. That's enough reason for me not to do it.

I do set the safety during voluntary reloads, or when moving.

[SLG]

I'm not advocating for or against safing the weapon prior to reloading.

The thought process as explained to me by the mil folks I've worked with is that after the gun get reloaded, the situation may have changed enough that the risk of an ND outweighs the slight speed advantage of reloading with the weapon off safe. See my post above regarding circumstances that might make that true.

Another thing to consider is that if your mags are properly carried, they are mostly going to be in some type of flap pouch. Reloading from that type of pouch is going to be slightly slower than a kydex range rig. A contact mag may be worn in a speedier fashion, but ime, no one carries more than a mag or so that way, since retaining your mags and keeping your bullets usable is far more important than a faster reload. This is an area where competition influence is not a good thing, and plenty of former action guys have succumbed to the dark side in the name of a faster range reload.

As far as how it differs from a sidearm, the pistol rarely comes out of the holster in military operations. I say this based on some personal experience, as well as extensive conversations with actual mil guys.:-) Not to mention, there have been VERY few pistol shootings in the military in the last 15 years. Very few. In contrast, the rifle is what the fighting gets done with, and is always in the hand. It is also much slower to reload, all things being equal, than a pistol. Situation then has more time to change, relatively. In reality though, if the sidearm has a safety, then I don't see the argument as being different. It's just that many of the currently used sidearms don't have safeties, and that is not the fault of the end user. Of course, with something like a 1911, you can't safe it while doing a slide lock reload.

[SLG]

I tested this the last time I had my AR out, and found that setting the safety costs me about 0.3s on an emergency reload. That's enough reason for me not to do it.

I do set the safety during voluntary reloads, or when moving.

.3 sounds about right. It is basically impossible for it not to cost you some time, as both hands have to be on the weapon to safe it.

[Duelist]

Your striker fired handgun, or any other quality modern handgun, won't fire if you drop it. The long gun? Drop safe tech isn't as integrated.

[BehindBlueI's]

Your striker fired handgun never hangs on a sling.

This. In the context of LE, you can reholster it and cover the trigger. You don't have that luxury with a long gun. Our training for working the selector would likely seem obsessive to some, but in our context it matters.

[breakingtime91]

I'm not advocating for or against safing the weapon prior to reloading.

The thought process as explained to me by the mil folks I've worked with is that after the gun get reloaded, the situation may have changed enough that the risk of an ND outweighs the slight speed advantage of reloading with the weapon off safe. See my post above regarding circumstances that might make that true.

Another thing to consider is that if your mags are properly carried, they are mostly going to be in some type of flap pouch. Reloading from that type of pouch is going to be slightly slower than a kydex range rig. A contact mag may be worn in a speedier fashion, but ime, no one carries more than a mag or so that way, since retaining your mags and keeping your bullets usable is far more important than a faster reload. This is an area where competition influence is not a good thing, and plenty of former action guys have succumbed to the dark side in the name of a faster range reload.

As far as how it differs from a sidearm, the pistol rarely comes out of the holster in military operations. I say this based on some personal experience, as well as extensive conversations with actual mil guys.:-) Not to mention, there have been VERY few pistol shootings in the military in the last 15 years. Very few. In contrast, the rifle is what the fighting gets done with, and is always in the hand. It is also much slower to reload, all things being equal, than a pistol. Situation then has more time to change, relatively. In reality though, if the sidearm has a safety, then I don't see the argument as being different. It's just that many of the currently used sidearms don't have safeties, and that is not the fault of the end user. Of course, with something like a 1911, you can't safe it while doing a slide lock reload.

Seen the mag thing bite someone in the ass in real life. They didn't die but went for a reload and during the shuffling on the ground, lost their reload and it really messed up their thought process. I ran all of my mags on a chest rig, if I was in that sort of job again I would use the pig bomber single mag pouches for my PC and run one kydex reload on my belt.. Enough can change in a shooting situation that I safe my weapon while doing a reload. Shit gets confusing and the last thing I want to do is jump into the prone, stack up, low crawl, and accidentally send a round into something/someone I didn't mean to.

[GJM]

I feel differently as regards the safety on my long guns used for bear defense, like my Benelli M2. I have considered removing the thumb safety, although ultimately decided to retain it, but manipulate the trigger so the middle joint always presses the safety off when pressing the trigger.

My shotgun stays in condition three until there is an imminent threat. I am not shooting until a bear is charging me, likely inside 15 yards, and in my balancing of risk, I value a shotgun that fires over some layer of safety. I did the same analysis on my USP, and removed the safety feature, going with a variant three decocker only.

When the threat passes, my pistol is decocked and holstered. My shotgun returns to condition three. This is just my practice -- no quarrel how other folks do it. On the AR, I am inclined to safety on bolt forward reloads and not on true emergency reloads.

[GRV]

.3 sounds about right. It is basically impossible for it not to cost you some time, as both hands have to be on the weapon to safe it.

Can you elaborate on that?

I rarely shoot my AR, but that sounded very hard to believe for me, so I just went and pulled it out to check. Best I can tell, I'm able to manipulate the safety both on and off with just my strong hand holding it by the pistol grip. I tried a few positions: stock on shoulder, barrel pointing up and to the left, stock under arm, stock not in contact with body at all, etc. Holding my AR one handed like this is a little tough for me, but that's just because I'm weak and it's heavy. I imagine it'd be pretty easy with a lightweight SBR with something like a T1/2 on top.

[GOTURBACK]

.3 sounds about right. It is basically impossible for it not to cost you some time, as both hands have to be on the weapon to safe it.

I have no problem safeing my AR or my Tavor while holding it in one hand? I can simultainously eject the magazine and safe the weapon with out any problem on both platforms while holding it with one hand also.

[BWT]

The explanations provided make sense.

I don't shoot a rifle with sling, I don't retrieve magazines from retention devices (thinking about it if you jumped out of an air plane or were taking a swim prior a magazine will not be held in place reliably), and I certainly don't run for cover (besides shooting for competition in an IDPA-esque matches) when reloading.

I read the article and the posts here; I can see the difference.

I was just thinking you had to use your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard to eject a magazine; however long it took to get another magazine in the rifle and release the bolt didn't seem to be long enough for me to be a factor. Combine that with the people do that all the time with pistols and I thought there wasn't any appreciable lack of safety in pistols. Also SLG pointed out, these same guys came from groups that used 1911's historically which also had the manual safety disabled to fire and load the weapon. I was just thinking, "maybe I'm missing something here".


Your striker fired handgun, or any other quality modern handgun, won't fire if you drop it. The long gun? Drop safe tech isn't as integrated.

The free-floating firing pin in an AR platform sometimes divots primers when chambering because of the momentum going forward. I believe the military spec ammo just uses thick/hard enough primers specifically to prevent unexpected ignition (most commercial grade primers are safe enough as well but certainly thinner). The safety selector in safe doesn't control the hammer from following the carrier or stop the firing pin from moving (for example: this guy having a runaway after releasing the trigger in a sub-gun match with an M16 http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?66902-Runaway-Gun).

That's why when I heard putting the gun on safe for that split second; I thought the gun can't fire when the bolt's locked in position over the hammer stopping it's movement. You're probably shooting at something that needs to be shot at and the gun is now empty; why would you not want the gun off safe if you've already made the decision to fire? But, slings, running for cover and not dropping a bolt on a chamber later on with a hammer potentially depressed, delays in getting the gun backup and running, etc. all make sense that's why I asked.

I figured there was something I simply didn't know.

Thanks for the insights.

God Bless,

Brandon

[SLG]

Can you elaborate on that?

I rarely shoot my AR, but that sounded very hard to believe for me, so I just went and pulled it out to check. Best I can tell, I'm able to manipulate the safety both on and off with just my strong hand holding it by the pistol grip. I tried a few positions: stock on shoulder, barrel pointing up and to the left, stock under arm, stock not in contact with body at all, etc. Holding my AR one handed like this is a little tough for me, but that's just because I'm weak and it's heavy. I imagine it'd be pretty easy with a lightweight SBR with something like a T1/2 on top.

I can manipulate the safety with one hand one the gun, but that's about all that can be said for that. I've never seen someone be able to remove their left hand from the rifle and safe the gun with the right, while the left goes for a mag, and accomplish the reload in anywhere close to a normal time. Please post video, as I'd like to learn a better way.

[El Cid]

For me I am engaging the safety as soon as I realize I need to reload. I'll have to run some drills later to see if my support hand is still on the rifle or already moving to the new mag.

Here is a reload done very quickly with the safety used.

http://youtu.be/w69N5gsxvpM


Of bigger concern for me is that I want the rifle on safe if I don't have a sight picture. If I haven't trained myself to safe it during reloads, I might not safe it during some other manipulation. I admit I didn't do this before - but since Mac's class over 5 years ago I've worked hard to make sure I safe the rifle as soon as I move it from my face/sight picture. This way, no matter what I do next the rifle isn't going to put a hole in me or anyone else if it catches on gear.

Now if the gamers need that .3 seconds to win and are willing to assume the risk of a ND I suppose that's their choice. I am unwilling to sacrifice safety for speed in such a situation. But then I'm also the guy who shoots steel matches from concealment with my duty/off-duty holster.

[SLG]

For me I am engaging the safety as soon as I realize I need to reload. I'll have to run some drills later to see if my support hand is still on the rifle or already moving to the new mag.

Here is a reload done very quickly with the safety used.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM


Of bigger concern for me is that I want the rifle on safe if I don't have a sight picture. If I haven't trained myself to safe it during reloads, I might not safe it during some other manipulation. I admit I didn't do this before - but since Mac's class over 5 years ago I've worked hard to make sure I safe the rifle as soon as I move it from my face/sight picture. This way, no matter what I do next the rifle isn't going to put a hole in me or anyone else if it catches on gear.

Now if the gamers need that .3 seconds to win and are willing to assume the risk of a ND I suppose that's their choice. I am unwilling to sacrifice safety for speed in such a situation. But then I'm also the guy who shoots steel matches from concealment with my duty/off-duty holster.

I agree with all that you said. I'm very familiar with the video you posted, and McNamara clearly breaks his strong hand grip to manipulate the safety while his support hand is still on the gun. I do it exactly the same way.

I completely agree that a fast reload can still be accomplished, but it IS NOT POSSIBLE, to reload at exactly the same speed as if you left the safety off. I thought all shooters understood this, but if someone can show me video to prove otherwise, I'd love to see it. My m4 reload is pretty fast (stock gun, no competition add ons), but I would love to make it faster, or be able to go just as fast but safe the weapon at the same time.

[GRV]

I can manipulate the safety with one hand one the gun, but that's about all that can be said for that. I've never seen someone be able to remove their left hand from the rifle and safe the gun with the right, while the left goes for a mag, and accomplish the reload in anywhere close to a normal time. Please post video, as I'd like to learn a better way.

Well, maybe that's the thing, my reload is so slow to begin with that maybe that's the problem. I'm not into posting shooting videos public, so I've sent you a PM.

To be clear, I totally agree with you that any safety manip is going to add time to a reload. I was just surprised by the claim that you can't hit the safety with only one hand on the gun. I suspect we just have different things in mind with the same words, so I was wondering what you meant by it.

[SLG]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

[breakingtime91]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

I think it also matters where you position the carbine during the reload. My technique goes: 1)drop mag 2)safety while anchoring gun along my ribs 3) new mag 4)thumb on bolt release

[SLG]

I completely agree that a fast reload can still be accomplished, but it IS NOT POSSIBLE, to reload at exactly the same speed as if you left the safety off.

Quoting oneself is bad form, no doubt.

I still stand by my assertion, because I believe that regardless of how fast one is, one will still be able to be faster without flipping the lever. However, after seeing dove's video, I stand by to be corrected. :-)

[ST911]

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

I have large hands and long fingers. I can flick the safety off with no break in my grip, and only a slight one when activating it. Mostly, I come off the backstrap at the top by a smidge to get my thumb underneath the selector. (I have a pretty easy time with HK and SCAR selectors too, if that reference is helpful.)

There is probably a sweet-spot for hand size in the equation.

[TGS]

SLG,

Just a note, we were taught to reload our long guns with the safety on. I don't know if it was an institutional change or a personal interjection by an instructor, but it was taught for the same reason that people are discussing with Pat Mac.

Thought you'd find it interesting. I've been talking with your old buddy Chad a lot, he seems to think there's been a lot of improvement in the program from what I've told him what we're doing. Even talking to my buddy who went through in 2013, there's been a lot of change.

That's a good sign. I like it. Gives me a warm and fuzzy about the organization.



The free-floating firing pin in an AR platform sometimes divots primers when chambering because of the momentum going forward. I believe the military spec ammo just uses thick/hard enough primers specifically to prevent unexpected ignition (most commercial grade primers are safe enough as well but certainly thinner). The safety selector in safe doesn't control the hammer from following the carrier or stop the firing pin from moving (for example: this guy having a runaway after releasing the trigger in a sub-gun match with an M16 http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?66902-Runaway-Gun).

That's why when I heard putting the gun on safe for that split second; I thought the gun can't fire when the bolt's locked in position over the hammer stopping it's movement. You're probably shooting at something that needs to be shot at and the gun is now empty; why would you not want the gun off safe if you've already made the decision to fire? But, slings, running for cover and not dropping a bolt on a chamber later on with a hammer potentially depressed, delays in getting the gun backup and running, etc. all make sense that's why I asked.

I figured there was something I simply didn't know.

Thanks for the insights.

God Bless,

Brandon

Thanks for sharing. I've already witnessed several runaways with our Colt 635s, and it's not like I've been on the job for 20 years (understatement).

[El Cid]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

I wonder how much if any part is played by the shooter's choice in pistol grip. I prefer the more vertical B5 or K2, though I used a MIAD before that. In another thread you mention your preference for the TD grip which has a pretty noticeable rake. Could that be inhibiting the selector manipulations?

[SLG]

I wonder how much if any part is played by the shooter's choice in pistol grip. I prefer the more vertical B5 or K2, though I used a MIAD before that. In another thread you mention your preference for the TD grip which has a pretty noticeable rake. Could that be inhibiting the selector manipulations?

Definitely worth exploring, thanks for pointing that out.

[SLG]

SLG,

Just a note, we were taught to reload our long guns with the safety on. I don't know if it was an institutional change or a personal interjection by an instructor, but it was taught for the same reason that people are discussing with Pat Mac.

Thought you'd find it interesting. I've been talking with your old buddy Chad a lot, he seems to think there's been a lot of improvement in the program from what I've told him what we're doing. Even talking to my buddy who went through in 2013, there's been a lot of change.

That's a good sign. I like it. Gives me a warm and fuzzy about the organization.



Thanks for sharing. I've already witnessed several runaways with our Colt 635s, and it's not like I've been on the job for 20 years (understatement).

Good to hear things have changed. Hopefully for the better, but that's not always the case.

[Talionis]

So far I'm with SLG on this one regarding loss of speed. I'm pretty new to shooting carbine, but in my practice so far I've been very close to my pistol reload speed without putting the carbine on safe, and about half a second slower when I do. I have short thumbs, and have to shift the gun to engage the safety.

One wrinkle is that when I shoot left handed, there is no difference in time due to the ergos. Basically it boils down to the fact that I can't reach the magazine release and the safety at the same time with my right hand.

For me, since I do not and have no plans to use a carbine in a team environment, I don't have the same reasons to activate the safety on a reload.

[rob_s]

So, if I understand Pannone's article correctly, the reason the time difference doesn't matter is that if you run dry while behind cover you should retreat to full cover and reload (taking time, somewhat, out of the equation) and if you are out in the open and run dry you should be hauling ass for cover and not standing there reloading?

I was in the same McNamara class as El Cid, and I performed the manipulations in the class because Mac asked us to and then discarded the whole thing as irrelevant for my needs. Even if I thought I was as fast, and even if I ingrained the manipulation into my process, it's still two more motions (one to engage it, one to disengage it) that I don't have a need for. I can, however, understand how a professional user working with others might find it to be an extra level of safety that I wouldn't argue with.

ETA:
I will say this, having one of the short-throw, ambi safeties did take the edge off the learning curve and the speed impact, for me. I like the BAD-ASS-ST (http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/bad-ass-st-short-throw-ambi-safety-selector-ar15-ar10r) with the short lever on the ejection port side to disengage the safety.

[LittleLebowski]

I will say this, having one of the short-throw, ambi safeties did take the edge off the learning curve and the speed impact, for me. I like the BAD-ASS-ST (http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/bad-ass-st-short-throw-ambi-safety-selector-ar15-ar10r) with the short lever on the ejection port side to disengage the safety.

I quite like the short throw, BAD-ASS levers.

[Dagga Boy]

Okay...a bit of a rant.
I wholly agree with the reasoning from Pannone, p-Mac, etc. They come out of a world where the carbine is the primary. They come from a world where going dry in a fight with a carbine is likely. They have experience with exceptional (by mil/LE standards) shooters working in high stress environments and have determined that REALISTICALLY having the safety on during the reload is an important task as the target is most likely not there when you are done with your reload and your carbine is now back to a condition more in line with where it should be while acquiring targets and assessing them. I am a big fan of TTP's and SOP's based on actual experience. Essentially, if losing track of safety status has been an issue in these guys world in a fight...it will likely be in most Mil/LE guys world. Don't take this wrong...for shooting sports...do whatever wins, stop with the kilt on the street b.s., because copying those techniques out of the competition world may get someone killed.
So, we have a look at actual deployment use and issues drive a training methodology to build a solid habit for field use. All good. For most people this will cost some speed. This should not be a discussion. There is really no such thing as multi-tasking, it is task stacking and how fast you can prioritize tasks and execute them in order. Adding multiple extra movements to a task (reloading) will add time and complexity to the task...it has to. It also adds an extra element of possible failure...like forgetting the task of taking the safety off. I believe anybody professionally working with these systems should be on board with running safety on when loaded and not actually shooting as SOP...even though the possibility of forgetting to take the safety off is a potential issue....the positives outweigh the negatives. I believe safety engagement on the carbine on a reload is in the same realm...engaging the safety the carbine during a reload is likely a positive that outweighs the negatives when working around other humans in a high stress environment.
For me, I generally run two systems these days in carbine world. The Steyr AUG and the Colt AR-15. The safety works differently. The AUG is much easier to use for me, and is almost a non-thought and I do use it on reloads. The AR is much harder for me, which is likely a training scar that can be worked through. Here is where I blow a gasket. The same folks who are emphasizing the safety on during a reload are also out of a world that is putting huge training importance into training tasks that we know are negatives in the LE world (shooting multiple targets with no assessment). We also have a ton of folks who discount the AUG as a terrible platform because of reload speed. How often are we seeing citizens and US Law Enforcement running carbines, with 30 plus rounds on board, empty? And then when empty in all those incidents, how often is the intended target still in the same place with the same circumstances as when the reload started? How effing important is the speed carbine bolt lock reload to anyone outside of military special operations compared to the amount of emphasis placed on the task in training and weapons selection? This is a task that needs to be done efficiently, and correctly. Is safety on part of doing it correctly? It likely is because it is likely you will need to start the entire target acquisition and assessment process over after a reload....so why are we not training that way? Should the reload be a "100%" task...meaning should we be training it to 100% doing it right the first time, everytime, before we put a huge emphasis on speed? I would say if we put a new emphasis on "efficiency" rather than "speed" we will be in a better place. Part of that efficiency will be speed....where mags, controls etc. are placed and manipulated can build speed. Part of that efficiency will also have to be positive results...does the gun actually get reloaded with a locked mag everytime?. Then we need to add the condition of the gun after the reload...loaded, safety on and ready to start the engagement process over.
Right now we treat reloads as a continuation process. In the sport world...it is. In the professional world, it is a restart...and the emphasis from people like P-Mac and Pannone on safety engagement is a good thing in that direction. I just wish we were looking at everything we are doing with that same level of emphasis on building good habits.

[Default.mp3]

I will say this, having one of the short-throw, ambi safeties did take the edge off the learning curve and the speed impact, for me. I like the BAD-ASS-ST (http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/bad-ass-st-short-throw-ambi-safety-selector-ar15-ar10r) with the short lever on the ejection port side to disengage the safety.My first (and so far, only complete) rifle has those, in conjunction with a BCM Gunfighter Grip Mod 1. Due to the fact that I was so used to riding the safety on my P30LS, I instinctively ride the safety on my AR, too, and like with my pistol manipulations, I safe the rifle during movement, emergency reloads, etc.; all of this was before any formal carbine training (which I still have very little) and before all the SoldierSystems articles about it. I wear size small gloves, and can easily manipulate the safety with only one hand, at least on my set-up; I know I've fumbled traditional, 90° safeties when finger fucking my friends' more traditionally set-up ARs.

[breakingtime91]

Okay...a bit of a rant.
I wholly agree with the reasoning from Pannone, p-Mac, etc. They come out of a world where the carbine is the primary. They come from a world where going dry in a fight with a carbine is likely. They have experience with exceptional (by mil/LE standards) shooters working in high stress environments and have determined that REALISTICALLY having the safety on during the reload is an important task as the target is most likely not there when you are done with your reload and your carbine is now back to a condition more in line with where it should be while acquiring targets and assessing them. I am a big fan of TTP's and SOP's based on actual experience. Essentially, if losing track of safety status has been an issue in these guys world in a fight...it will likely be in most Mil/LE guys world. Don't take this wrong...for shooting sports...do whatever wins, stop with the kilt on the street b.s., because copying those techniques out of the competition world may get someone killed.
So, we have a look at actual deployment use and issues drive a training methodology to build a solid habit for field use. All good. For most people this will cost some speed. This should not be a discussion. There is really no such thing as multi-tasking, it is task stacking and how fast you can prioritize tasks and execute them in order. Adding multiple extra movements to a task (reloading) will add time and complexity to the task...it has to. It also adds an extra element of possible failure...like forgetting the task of taking the safety off. I believe anybody professionally working with these systems should be on board with running safety on when loaded and not actually shooting as SOP...even though the possibility of forgetting to take the safety off is a potential issue....the positives outweigh the negatives. I believe saving the carbine on a reload is in the same realm...engaging the safety the carbine during a reload is likely a positive that outweighs the negatives when working around other humans in a high stress environment.
For me, I generally run two systems these days in carbine world. The Steyr AUG and the Colt AR-15. The safety works differently. The AUG is much easier to use for me, and is almost a non-thought and I do use it on reloads. The AR is much harder for me, which is likely a training scar that can be worked through. Here is where I blow a gasket. The same folks who are emphasizing the safety on during a reload are also out of a world that is putting huge training importance into training tasks that we know are negatives in the LE world (shooting multiple targets with no assessment). We also have a ton of folks who discount the AUG as a terrible platform because of reload speed. How often are we seeing citizens and US Law Enforcement running carbines, with 30 plus rounds on board, empty? And then when empty in all those incidents, how often is the intended target still in the same place with the same circumstances as when the reload started? How effing important is the speed carbine bolt lock reload to anyone outside of military special operations compared to the amount of emphasis placed on the task in training and weapons selection? This is a task that needs to be done efficiently, and correctly. Is safety on part of doing it correctly? It likely is because it is likely you will need to start the entire target acquisition and assessment process over after a reload....so why are we not training that way? Should the reload be a "100%" task...meaning should we be training it to 100% doing it right the first time, everytime, before we put a huge emphasis on speed? I would say if we put a new emphasis on "efficiency" rather than "speed" we will be in a better place. Part of that efficiency will be speed....where mags, controls etc. are placed and manipulated can build speed. Part of that efficiency will also have to be positive results...does the gun actually get reloaded with a locked mag everytime?. Then we need to add the condition of the gun after the reload...loaded, safety on and ready to start the engagement process over.
Right now we treat reloads as a continuation process. In the sport world...it is. In the professional world, it is a restart...and the emphasis from people like P-Mac and Pannone on safety engagement is a good thing in that direction. I just wish we were looking at everything we are doing with that same level of emphasis on building good habits.

I enjoy your rants.

[GRV]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

Dude, Minions are awesome, don't hate. :cool:

I'd have to go play with it some more and think about it, but I don't think I'm compromising my hold much. I'm compromising whatever hold my thumb provides, that's for sure. But beyond that I think the weight is the primary issue. However, seeing as I found (separately, off video) I was able to manipulate the safety (with the grip you saw in the video) with no sling and no stock contact, carbine pointed out forward, the grip must be pretty decent to hold that weight up.

You got me pegged on hand size I think.



Quoting oneself is bad form, no doubt.

I still stand by my assertion, because I believe that regardless of how fast one is, one will still be able to be faster without flipping the lever. However, after seeing dove's video, I stand by to be corrected. :-)

I hope that's not a challenge. :eek: I never disagreed that there'd be a time difference.

I may not be the best candidate, as I think the time difference may be smaller than variation in some of the other parts of my reload. In particular, on a average, I think I will fumble the mag insert enough to ruin any data. (Once is enough.) The larger issue though is that I don't think we've specified what we mean by faster. Could I do the same exact positioning and motions, sans safety flick, and find I come up with the same time? Sure, it's possible. But, there is probably some slight variation that is faster and better for no-safety reloads that slows down or makes the safety reload less consistent. What I'm saying is, to really test it, I'd have to find the optimal no-safety technique, and the optimal safety technique, and train both of those to their limits. But yea, just seeing some times will be interesting.

I agree with nyeti though. Even if rifle weight, user strength, and user hand anatomy match up so that the safety can be flicked on and off with a full firing grip and no support grip, in any orientation...there is still going to be the mental multitasking cost. I think it will show up in the speed the left hand gets to the mag. It is more complex, ergo it is slower, and more prone to error. So it's an a priori ridiculous argument to engage in. Is anyone here really trying to engage in that argument? I don't think so.

There will be some cost, and for some people maybe it's very low. The question then becomes how relevant that cost is in context. I think Pannone's article articulates that excellently. And I like how he points out that he's realistically never going to do a flat-footed, square-range emergency carbine reload in the open, i.e. the question people are really looking to get answered is just not worth answering for him.



I wonder how much if any part is played by the shooter's choice in pistol grip. I prefer the more vertical B5 or K2, though I used a MIAD before that. In another thread you mention your preference for the TD grip which has a pretty noticeable rake. Could that be inhibiting the selector manipulations?

I'm currently using a MIAD with medium backstrap and the finger divider. This carbine was built before I knew anything about carbines, and I would probably do a lot differently today.

For one, I noticed the finger divider bothering my ring finger when playing with this idea. Again, I think that is more due to trying to support the full weight with one hand than it is due to grip shifting in flicking the safety. However, my grip probably shifts a little.

I'm inclined to think I'd prefer the rake in doing this. But I'd have to actually feel a vertical grip to decide.

[breakingtime91]

Dude, Minions are awesome, don't hate. :cool:

I'd have to go play with it some more and think about it, but I don't think I'm compromising my hold much. I'm compromising whatever hold my thumb provides, that's for sure. But beyond that I think the weight is the primary issue. However, seeing as I found (separately, off video) I was able to manipulate the safety (with the grip you saw in the video) with no sling and no stock contact, carbine pointed out forward, the grip must be pretty decent to hold that weight up.

You got me pegged on hand size I think.




I hope that's not a challenge. :eek: I never disagreed that there'd be a time difference.

I may not be the best candidate, as I think the time difference may be smaller than variation in some of the other parts of my reload. In particular, on a average, I think I will fumble the mag insert enough to ruin any data. (Once is enough.) The larger issue though is that I don't think we've specified what we mean by faster. Could I do the same exact positioning and motions, sans safety flick, and find I come up with the same time? Sure, it's possible. But, there is probably some slight variation that is faster and better for no-safety reloads that slows down or makes the safety reload less consistent. What I'm saying is, to really test it, I'd have to find the optimal no-safety technique, and the optimal safety technique, and train both of those to their limits. But yea, just seeing some times will be interesting.

I agree with nyeti though. Even if rifle weight, user strength, and user hand anatomy match up so that the safety can be flicked on and off with a full firing grip and no support grip, in any orientation...there is still going to be the mental multitasking cost. I think it will show up in the speed the left hand gets to the mag. It is more complex, ergo it is slower, and more prone to error. So it's an a priori ridiculous argument to engage in. Is anyone here really trying to engage in that argument? I don't think so.

There will be some cost, and for some people maybe it's very low. The question then becomes how relevant that cost is in context. I think Pannone's article articulates that excellently. And I like how he points out that he's realistically never going to do a flat-footed, square-range emergency carbine reload in the open, i.e. the question people are really looking to get answered is just not worth answering for him.




I'm currently using a MIAD with medium backstrap and the finger divider. This carbine was built before I knew anything about carbines, and I would probably do a lot differently today.

For one, I noticed the finger divider bothering my ring finger when playing with this idea. Again, I think that is more due to trying to support the full weight with one hand than it is due to grip shifting in flicking the safety. However, my grip probably shifts a little.

I'm inclined to think I'd prefer the rake in doing this. But I'd have to actually feel a vertical grip to decide.

ok so, are you keeping the gun in the shoulder while you reload or breaking it down into a "work space"?

Frank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97mp_a3szQ


so another guys take on it
kyle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5inN1OEzI

explains safe but this is pretty much how I reload. I tuck it under my arm pit/pinned against my ribs. I do this since I used to have to(sometimes) do reloads at a full sprint (guess it doesn't apply now) and its exactly where I pin my rifle to clear a stubborn malfunction.

[rob_s]

Curious as to the timeline on this action.

1) decide to reload
2) engage safety
3) remove weak hand from it's position while ejecting mag
4) retrieve fresh mag
5) insert fresh mag
6) drop bolt
7) return weak hand to original position

-OR-


1) decide to reload
2) remove weak hand from it's position while engaging safety
3) eject mag
4) retrieve fresh mag
5) insert fresh mag
6) drop bolt
7) return weak hand to original position

-OR-

1) decide to reload
2) remove weak hand from it's position while engaging safety & ejecting mag
3) retrieve fresh mag
4) insert fresh mag
5) drop bolt
6) return weak hand to original position

[breakingtime91]

Curious as to the timeline on this action.

1) decide to reload
2) engage safety
3) remove weak hand from it's position while ejecting mag
4) retrieve fresh mag
5) insert fresh mag
6) drop bolt
7) return weak hand to original position

-OR-


1) decide to reload
2) remove weak hand from it's position while engaging safety
3) eject mag
4) retrieve fresh mag
5) insert fresh mag
6) drop bolt
7) return weak hand to original position

-OR-

1) decide to reload
2) remove weak hand from it's position while engaging safety & ejecting mag
3) retrieve fresh mag
4) insert fresh mag
5) drop bolt
6) return weak hand to original position

So I think i do the third one but I need a new battery for my shot timer anyway. I'll post times asap.

[GRV]

ok so, are you keeping the gun in the shoulder while you reload or breaking it down into a "work space"?


I can do the safety manipulation either way, afaik. However, in the video I sent SLG the stock stays on my shoulder. The barrel tilts up and over and I lean back, creating a quasi workspace geometry, but with the stock on my shoulder.

I learned reloads from Sean, and that's probably where stock on shoulder came from. I can't remember what he taught, but I feel like I would have copied him if he showed it differently.

[breakingtime91]

I can do the safety manipulation either way, afaik. However, in the video I sent SLG the stock stays on my shoulder. The barrel tilts up and over and I lean back, creating a quasi workspace geometry, but with the stock on my shoulder.

I learned reloads from Sean, and that's probably where stock on shoulder came from. I can't remember what he taught, but I feel like I would have copied him if he showed it differently.

I wonder if this has more to do with the safety manipulation then the grip?

[Dagga Boy]

Rob, no matter how you type it, none of these things are really happening at exactly the same time. Moving the safety and ejecting the magazine will always be two tasks. Sure, you may get them close to happening at exactly the same time, but one is going first and one is going second, even if not perceptible from simple observation. With some folks, those actions will look close to the same, with others..it will be vastly different. I would argue, with most who carry a carbine professionally as a tool have far more important skill sets to be working on mastering than shaving incremental minutia of time off a bolt lock reload. Most would likely gain far more time and efficiency with some simple equipment and magazine placement than anything else.

[GRV]

I wonder if this has more to do with the safety manipulation then the grip?

Yea...

For reference, I think what I do is: Lay my thumb across the safety so that when it's in the fire position my thumb and the safety make a "+". Then, press in with my thumb against the safety and bring my thumb back in a somewhat circular motion, while also bending it at the joint. I think I do try to catch the selector with the tip or side of the tip of my thumb as I come back.

If you hold your right hand in a firing grip, thumb forward, and then try to draw circles with the tip of your thumb, I think that will emulate what I do. Actually, imagine your thumb was peddling a bicycle. That's the motion. Then adapt that on the gun to flick the safety.

[rob_s]

Rob, no matter how you type it, none of these things are really happening at exactly the same time. Moving the safety and ejecting the magazine will always be two tasks. Sure, you may get them close to happening at exactly the same time, but one is going first and one is going second, even if not perceptible from simple observation. With some folks, those actions will look close to the same, with others..it will be vastly different. I would argue, with most who carry a carbine professionally as a tool have far more important skill sets to be working on mastering than shaving incremental minutia of time off a bolt lock reload. Most would likely gain far more time and efficiency with some simple equipment and magazine placement than anything else.

While the thumb and the finger will be operating independently, what I'm wondering is whether people are accomplishing the safety, then mag button, all while the weak hand is traveling to and from the pouch.

and since many who are actively posting in this thread are NOT carrying a carbine professionally (or, aren't anymore), I would also say that professional use is not the only point of interest.

Mine is somewhat of a benign interest in the topic, since I'm (a) not carrying a carbine professionally and (b) wholly unlikely to employ one against humans at all.

[Dagga Boy]

While the thumb and the finger will be operating independently, what I'm wondering is whether people are accomplishing the safety, then mag button, all while the weak hand is traveling to and from the pouch.

and since many who are actively posting in this thread are NOT carrying a carbine professionally (or, aren't anymore), I would also say that professional use is not the only point of interest.

Mine is somewhat of a benign interest in the topic, since I'm (a) not carrying a carbine professionally and (b) wholly unlikely to employ one against humans at all.

For a change...likely thinking along the same lines. My issue is that when we get to the point of folks who have the "athleticism" to be running multiple synchronized manipulations on the gun near simultaneously with 100% consistency and no fumbles at all, are they are likely not like a majority of any of is! and are back to minutia improvements on a skill rarely used for real! and if it is! we are still into almost inconsequential time.

We are talking about a manipulation that has huge levels of consequence if done wrong in a fight, yet little advantage if done "slightly" faster. There is stupid slow, and we are not talking about that. I would simply look at this for maximum gain for training time. I think the safety on is an operational benefit. If that is the premiss, then let's train the entire reload process in an operational way. So.....let's add another question based on something we see often as an issue-along with the safety, should a push pull also be done?

[GOTURBACK]

Regarding the push-pull on magazine insertion, my experience says the extra time required to accomplish it is worthwhile as I have seen mags fall out after attempting a reload with the bolt forward. That is not a situation you want to be caught in.

[Dagga Boy]

Regarding the push-pull on magazine insertion, my experience says the extra time required to accomplish it is worthwhile as I have seen mags fall out after attempting a reload with the bolt forward. That is not a situation you want to be caught in.

Sort of my point. I tend to always push pull on every reload....because the one thing I always saw lots of was mags falling out of guns. To me it is part of the same process as the safety being placed on. You are training for what is going to be the likely scenario. As some astute folks have noted, in their experience, post reload, you are in an essentially new engagement. In that case,, starting safety on makes sense as it is likely you will not be re-engaged until full situational awareness has been achieved and a new OODA loop processed. Equally, I also want to start that new engagement like any, in which case I have confirmed by the simplest means that as soon as the first round is fired my magazine does not exit the gun. This is all part of the difficult balance of speed versus reward in what we are doing. Obviously, with some sort of sport shooting endeavor, the reward for certain fail safes used for an unknown action in a real shooting situation is completely different than the reward and benefits for the pre planned actions of a sport shooting endeavor. If a safety manipulation and push pull adds say .5 seconds to my bolt lock reload, I am thinking this is likely a good investment for what I am training for. Others may find this to not be a good idea.

One of the things I very much liked about P-Mac in actually training with him versus video clips and hearsay stuff is that he is looking for optimal operational efficiency, and training to maintain and improve performance, with the often missed key that the performance is measured on getting everything right before getting it fast. Once it is right, you work to continued gains till it is no longer right, and things are not left to chance.

[LOKNLOD]

Clearly what we need is mechanical wizardry that activates the safety when the bolt catch is engaged.

[BWT]

Somewhat related side note.

I found shooting ARs left handed; ambi-selectors drastically improved my ability to activate/deactivate the safety quickly. I found you can push the safety forward with your thumb but swipe it back on with the index finger quite easily.

This was an unexpected benefit when I outfitted my first AR with one; I think it's advantageous to everyone. I also found gripping the pistol grip with your middle finger, ring, and pinky; I did not have to adjust my grip at all (ETA: ) and I can perform this holding the gun with one hand.

I would highly recommend equipping every AR with an ambi-selector for this reason. I also use full size levers on both sides to retain the tactility of the safeties.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: I just tested and I do break my grip; I was mistaken.

[breakingtime91]

SLG, hows this working out?

[Shawn Dodson]

I don't engage the safety when I reload a handgun. Therefore I see no reason to have a different process for reloading my carbine. The practice adds to decision-making across platforms which decreases efficiency.

[SLG]

SLG, hows this working out?

Haven't really played with it since last discussion. Between work and my AK diversion...:-)

[breakingtime91]

Haven't really played with it since last discussion. Between work and my AK diversion...:-)

They are a guilty pleasure of mine... don't have money for two rifle platforms right now!

[Dagga Boy]

Haven't really played with it since last discussion. Between work and my AK diversion...:-)

AK's are not a diversion. They really are something that should be a required learning process. My AUG is a diversion and guilty pleasure.....:cool:

[SLG]

AK's are not a diversion. They really are something that should be a required learning process. My AUG is a diversion and guilty pleasure.....:cool:

My interest in the various weapons that I have, or don't yet have, cycles in a hard to predict way. Diversion may have been a poor choice of words, but the point was that I will use them a ton right now, until the cycle ends and something else catches my fancy. The exceptions are my duty pistol, and my duty rifle. They got shot and trained with every week, more or less.

[Dagga Boy]

My interest in the various weapons that I have, or don't yet have, cycles in a hard to predict way. Diversion may have been a poor choice of words, but the point was that I will use them a ton right now, until the cycle ends and something else catches my fancy. The exceptions are my duty pistol, and my duty rifle. They got shot and trained with every week, more or less.
We suffer from the same ailment....

[R.M.T.]

Messed with it a bit here and there, its going to be a hell of a habit to break, I'm still weighing whether its something I want to take on. I was surprised that I could actually make the manipulation work simultaneously. However, if I decide that its worth the effort of modifying my technique, I'll probably switch away form the BCM mod 1 that I am currently running on all my carbines and rifles. Hopefully the removal of excess grip girth off of the back strap will facilitate this happening.

I would also guess that a 45 degree safety selector would help this too, but I'm not sure how i feel about the use of those on social guns, thoughts?

[texasaggie2005]

I would also guess that a 45 degree safety selector would help this too, but I'm not sure how i feel about the use of those on social guns, thoughts?

I have an AXTS Talon ambi safety on my Colt. And I found that while setup for a 45deg throw, it was moved off safe too easily while I had it slung in front of me while out hunting. So I moved it back to 90deg throw and haven't had the same problem.

[R.M.T.]

I have an AXTS Talon ambi safety on my Colt. And I found that while setup for a 45deg throw, it was moved off safe too easily while I had it slung in front of me while out hunting. So I moved it back to 90deg throw and haven't had the same problem.

Yeah I got the sense that if the rifle wasn't getting slung or carried in the field much it would be alright. That doesn't sound like a risk worth taking. My two primary rifles are both setup for rambling right now. As that's where they get carried the most.