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voodoo_man
02-12-2016, 04:01 PM
I had to have a discussion with a commander today in reference to how we work domestics, from start to finish, patrol officer to detective to court.

The commander in question has not been on the street since the early 90's and does not know the current way things are handled. His boss, who he will explaining this to was on the street for 2 years (in the early 80's), has been assigned to a desk since (after making rank a few times over).

It did not end well but will work out in the long run.

How do you deal with commanders who are out of touch with what street officers do on a daily basis? In reference to anything in particular, have you had any positive outcomes in reference to these types of conversations or arguments over policy or the right way to do something?

Chuck Whitlock
02-12-2016, 04:11 PM
While I haven't had to butt heads personally, I would think a lot would ride on said commander's openmindedness. Being familiar with current statutes/ case law should support your argument, as those things are likely different than when they were doing things. i.e.-being able to explain "why" things are handled differently now, rather than "they just are".

coldcase1984
02-12-2016, 04:56 PM
My experience (24 years) says, good luck. If you are fortunate, they'll quash and deride you, then someone up the chain will reintroduce the plan in a few months and be met with glad cries and major awards and promotions.

HCM
02-12-2016, 05:21 PM
I spent some time in a training and development unit. My experience dealing with chiefs / commanders / directors on things like revising SOPs, field training etc usually followed the cycle of operations below:

1) Enthusiasm
2) Disillusionment
3) Panic
3) Search for the Guilty
4) Punishment of the Innocent
5) Praise and Enthusiasm for the Uninvolved

I volunteered to return to field work and was happy to do so.

BehindBlueI's
02-12-2016, 06:10 PM
I don't. I stay under the totem pole so there are several layers of insulation. In the instances were I have to deal directly with them, I answer questions and I present alternatives. "Yes, Sir, I can do it that way. To do so, I will need X resources." "Yes Sir, I can do it that way. It will result in the following issues."

I've said, verbatim, "Sir, I'll ride a tricycle around the interview room while shouting Miranda warnings if that's what you want me to do, but..."

voodoo_man
02-12-2016, 06:15 PM
I don't. I stay under the totem pole so there are several layers of insulation. In the instances were I have to deal directly with them, I answer questions and I present alternatives. "Yes, Sir, I can do it that way. To do so, I will need X resources." "Yes Sir, I can do it that way. It will result in the following issues."

I've said, verbatim, "Sir, I'll ride a tricycle around the interview room while shouting Miranda warnings if that's what you want me to do, but..."

Sounds like what I have to deal with.

Their way or you get *insert horrible punishment here*.

HCM
02-12-2016, 06:58 PM
Sounds like what I have to deal with.

Their way or you get *insert horrible punishment here*.

If there was one thing "The Wire" got right, it was this:


http://youtu.be/Dn2QgG7u5ac

BehindBlueI's
02-12-2016, 07:09 PM
Sounds like what I have to deal with.

Their way or you get *insert horrible punishment here*.

I learned in the Army about being right but outranked. I no longer plant my flag on hills that don't matter, and for it to matter it's generally got to mean someone is going to get hurt or killed.

voodoo_man
02-12-2016, 07:09 PM
If there was one thing "The Wire" got right, it was this:


http://youtu.be/Dn2QgG7u5ac

McNulty never did learn how to keep his mouth shut, that's why he ended up humping a fucking boat!

Unfortunately, they'd just put me in some shit hole working midnights, which I already senior'd out of so they wouldn't be able to do that again without a union grievance up their ass.

I am less worried about getting punished and more worried about what happens when someone gets hurt because of their bullshit policies.

HCM
02-12-2016, 07:34 PM
McNulty never did learn how to keep his mouth shut, that's why he ended up humping a fucking boat!

Unfortunately, they'd just put me in some shit hole working midnights, which I already senior'd out of so they wouldn't be able to do that again without a union grievance up their ass.

I am less worried about getting punished and more worried about what happens when someone gets hurt because of their bullshit policies.

True,I've been down that road. I don't know you, but my impression is you would like a cubicle in the the pawnshop unit about as much as I would.

voodoo_man
02-12-2016, 07:42 PM
True,I've been down that road. I don't know you, but my impression is you would like a cubicle in the the pawnshop unit about as much as I would.

The worst thing they could do is put me in a paperwork spot, with that said, nothing like is going to happen. Those spots are reserved for females and weak men who are afraid of street work.

pablo
02-12-2016, 07:43 PM
McNulty never did learn how to keep his mouth shut, that's why he ended up humping a fucking boat!

Unfortunately, they'd just put me in some shit hole working midnights, which I already senior'd out of so they wouldn't be able to do that again without a union grievance up their ass.

I am less worried about getting punished and more worried about what happens when someone gets hurt because of their bullshit policies.

Not saying it's the kind of advice that will go over smoothly, but sometimes fucking everything up by following policy to the letter is the only way to get the higher ups attention.

Embarrassment is the true motivator of admin types. When they get jammed up with their own stupidity, and there's no one to blame, either they'll come around and listen or you never had chance at all.

Once as punishment I got sent to the auto pound for a year. It was a much needed change. It made me realize that the world was just fine without me and there is more to life than police work. No matter how shitty of an assignment you get the best thing you can do is have fun and let everyone know it.

voodoo_man
02-12-2016, 07:46 PM
Not saying it's the kind of advice that will go over smoothly, but sometimes fucking everything up by following policy to the letter is the only way to get the higher ups attention.

Embarrassment is the true motivator of admin types. When they get jammed up with their own stupidity, and there's no one to blame, either they'll come around and listen or you never had chance at all.

We've had this happen a few times with various policies, they never really change anything, they just amend and keep on trucking.

The issue I had was stemming from something we do every single day but policy says to two different things, at the same time.

UNK
02-13-2016, 08:46 AM
Like Like Like Get some Big Boy


The worst thing they could do is put me in a paperwork spot, with that said, nothing like is going to happen. Those spots are reserved for females and weak men who are afraid of street work.

frankepc
02-13-2016, 10:15 AM
Before making yourself heard, start by saying “with all due respect” then you can say whatever you want without repercussion, it’s in the Geneva Convention….

voodoo_man
02-13-2016, 11:09 AM
Before making yourself heard, start by saying “with all due respect” then you can say whatever you want without repercussion, it’s in the Geneva Convention….

Is that like qualifing a statement with "im not racist.....sexist....etc, but" ?

LSP552
02-13-2016, 01:19 PM
I've had the "pleasure" to work for a bunch of idiots in my career. Sad to say, the majority of these were at the senior level. IMO, that's because to rise about a certain rank, politics and suck assmanship become more important than performance, regardless of agency.

For me personally, I mostly used two approaches, depending on the idiot in question. These are education and fear of liability/looking like an idiot to their boss or the press. Regardless of the approach, there is likely a price to pay when dealing with some of these folks. A pick your battle strategy is best, where you focus on the winning the war and not every battle. But, as you know, some battles must be fought as a matter of personal integrity, even when you know you will loose.

Good luck dealing with command idiots. IME, the odds of success are about 30%. It can be done, and I had the personal satisfaction of "slaying" a few idiots and making major policy changes at my old place. There was a professional price to pay with the last Superintendent I worked for, but respect of the men you lead is WAY more important than sucking up to the boss.

HCM
02-13-2016, 03:23 PM
I've had the "pleasure" to work for a bunch of idiots in my career. Sad to say, the majority of these were at the senior level. IMO, that's because to rise about a certain rank, politics and suck assmanship become more important than performance, regardless of agency..

In addtition to this ^^^^. In fed agencies you need to be willing to re- locate to HQ in DC if you want to rise above a certain rank.

Coyotesfan97
02-13-2016, 07:52 PM
We had a commander who pissed off one our old Chiefs (who Nyeti would probably know or know of for sure). He got a broom closet with a desk and a phone. He spent a year there and then got sent to Evidence where he did Officer work at Commander wages. The Chief tried to run him off but the Commander won. He was a hero to the rank and file and he laughed all the way to the bank.

pablo
02-13-2016, 08:21 PM
We've had this happen a few times with various policies, they never really change anything, they just amend and keep on trucking.

The issue I had was stemming from something we do every single day but policy says to two different things, at the same time.

If that's the approach they take, you can pound your fist and jump on a desk, but they'll always know better than you.

Just try to stay on the path that's best supported by case law.

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2016, 08:38 PM
This question is the very story of my entire career

voodoo_man
02-14-2016, 08:25 AM
This question is the very story of my entire career

I should write a book when I retire...

Poconnor
02-14-2016, 09:08 AM
Write what really happened but call it fiction because nobody will believe they really said such dumb shit

Hideeho
02-14-2016, 09:51 AM
Try converting statements into questions. Presenting your ideas as questions can seem less threatening. This is especially important in hierarchical organizations. Use the "5 whys" to dig deep into answers. Sometimes the a persons first response is not the true reason for their answer.

voodoo_man
02-14-2016, 10:06 AM
Try converting statements into questions. Presenting your ideas as questions can seem less threatening. This is especially important in hierarchical organizations. Use the "5 whys" to dig deep into answers. Sometimes the a persons first response is not the true reason for their answer.

I have tried this approach, but when the commander doesnt know the answer or doesnt have the experience to answer correctly it becomes a shit show quick.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-14-2016, 11:16 AM
I had to have a discussion with a commander today in reference to how we work domestics, from start to finish, patrol officer to detective to court.

The commander in question has not been on the street since the early 90's and does not know the current way things are handled. His boss, who he will explaining this to was on the street for 2 years (in the early 80's), has been assigned to a desk since (after making rank a few times over).

It did not end well but will work out in the long run.

How do you deal with commanders who are out of touch with what street officers do on a daily basis? In reference to anything in particular, have you had any positive outcomes in reference to these types of conversations or arguments over policy or the right way to do something?

Are you friendly with anyone in the prosecutor's office who can write a memo to your agency with suggestions for best practices for police actions for successfully prosecutions?

That way your finger prints stay off the issue and it gets dropped on the administration from on high.

Would that work?

voodoo_man
02-14-2016, 11:47 AM
Are you friendly with anyone in the prosecutor's office who can write a memo to your agency with suggestions for best practices for police actions for successfully prosecutions?

That way your finger prints stay off the issue and it gets dropped on the administration from on high.

Would that work?

I work for one of the largest PD's in the US, they simply do not care what anyone has to say, including the DA's office and/or the Feds.

There was a 140ish page document that was dropped on my PD as part of a fed investigation into our deadly force practices and we disregarded nearly all of them as a department.

Good idea though, if I ever get to a small town PD I'll definitely keep that in mind.

KPD
02-14-2016, 01:25 PM
I had to have a discussion with a commander today in reference to how we work domestics, from start to finish, patrol officer to detective to court.

The commander in question has not been on the street since the early 90's and does not know the current way things are handled. His boss, who he will explaining this to was on the street for 2 years (in the early 80's), has been assigned to a desk since (after making rank a few times over).

It did not end well but will work out in the long run.

How do you deal with commanders who are out of touch with what street officers do on a daily basis? In reference to anything in particular, have you had any positive outcomes in reference to these types of conversations or arguments over policy or the right way to do something?

I was a command staff level supervisor in a 200+ sworn agency.
I thought I could institute some positive change and I was very wrong.

All you can do is follow the orders as long as they aren't illegal and point out the potential issues.

Do any more than that at your own peril. You cannot win these arguments.

voodoo_man
02-14-2016, 03:36 PM
I was a command staff level supervisor in a 200+ sworn agency.
I thought I could institute some positive change and I was very wrong.

All you can do is follow the orders as long as they aren't illegal and point out the potential issues.

Do any more than that at your own peril. You cannot win these arguments.

I've heard very similar from command staff. Hell, I had a senior level top brass (stars on his shoulders) tell me "You cannot right the course of a ship this big, at the helm or not, it is too big for one person to change."

He is right of course, but the fact its institutional makes me cringe.

imp1295
02-14-2016, 05:02 PM
I'm not LEO, but this sounds strikingly similar to the issues I've seen in the Army. Trying to change large, bureaucratic organizations is an effort in futility.

Every sub-par organization has their own motivations and interests and is not likely to compromis on much.

We see the same thing with GOFOs who have led a rifle platoon in thirty years and are more concerned with the impact of an insignificant event that has no bearing on actual war fighting but will make the 24 hour news cycle in a flash.

At 23 year's in I've realized the only thing I can try to do is make my unit the best I can, shield them from as much BS as possible and take solace in the fact that that loyalty will be returned when it counts the most.

Look up some information on "Homo-Bureacrticus". We spent about 5 weeks here studying organizational culture and organizational change. We are all a bit move cynical for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

KPD
02-14-2016, 05:25 PM
This is a very good piece and illustrates very well LE leadership. Not all agencies, but the ones completely without these types of bosses are true unicorns.
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2015/02/17/9-toxic-law-enforcement-bosses/

voodoo_man
02-14-2016, 07:16 PM
This is a very good piece and illustrates very well LE leadership. Not all agencies, but the ones completely without these types of bosses are true unicorns.
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2015/02/17/9-toxic-law-enforcement-bosses/

Good article, I have worked for/with all of them.