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Glenn E. Meyer
02-12-2016, 11:18 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/us/hospital-guns-mental-health.html?_r=0

Are guns appropriate?
Should they be used on emotional disturbed or mental ill folk who are out of control or dangerous?
Are they over used or are the security guards trained enough for these unique situations?

Pros and cons.

A clinical friend of mine in the 70's worked in an institution. If a patient was out of control, all the men were to surround said patient and take off their glasses. Another had his front teeth knocked out.

Peally
02-12-2016, 11:47 AM
"Endanger a life, threaten to harm people, and eat the consequences when they fight back" would be the ideal route. If a patient decides today's the day he's going to break a doctor's jaw, shoot (or tase if appropriate) his ass.

However I sincerely doubt many security guards are trained to a very high degree. Half the hospitals in our area just contract cops to watch the shithead patients. I'm probably a little jaded at the thought of playing a-hole's games, my old man is still having teeth problems from prison work/fighting decades ago. Not worth the risk IMO.

Totem Polar
02-12-2016, 11:48 AM
Are guns appropriate? Most likely, yes, because sometimes bad people go into hospitals with their own guns. Should hospital security be held to a higher standard of care due to their job environment? Again, most likely yes, because of the high probability of daily interaction with EDPs. Specialized training would seem to be indicated. Random thoughts? If you're going to take a hit in the high mediastinum, an American hospital seems to be the obvious best place for the bad fortune, based on that pic of Pean. Lastly: "23 percent of ER shootings involve guns grabbed from security personnel". Once again: OC, FTW... ;)

pablo
02-12-2016, 01:14 PM
People don't go to hospitals because they are having a good day. It's a emotionally charged environment, there's a lot of people that are frustrated, want things to happen faster, and have nothing to do but stew on how poorly they think they are being treated.

Drug addicts, usually in throes of desperation, come to hospitals to try to their next fix.

Hospitals are the primary place for prisoner escapes and breakouts. Very few hospitals have access control/secure areas for inmates.

Of the course the only real reason that security guards carry guns in hospitals is to shoot mentally ill people.

The one thing that has disappeared from hospitals over the years are orderlies. They provide non-medical care and since the service they provide can't be quantified on a spreadsheet, their jobs have gone away and their duties have been split up and pushed onto security and medical staff.

Without fail the doctors, nurses, and admins that bitch about police in hospitals are the first ones to run out of the room when the cuffs come off and everything goes south.

JV_
02-12-2016, 01:18 PM
The one thing that has disappeared from hospitals over the years are orderlies.Interesting observation, it's something I hadn't given much thought.

nalesq
02-12-2016, 01:56 PM
In a lot of hospitals, the trained/armed security is nowhere nearby anyway. I once had to help subdue a 220 lbs level 3 combatives instructor who was trying to escape an Army psych ward in the midst of a violent psychotic break. I happened to be the only male on the floor (not as a patient, haha) with any kind of combat arms training/experience. By the time the DA police showed up, it was over. Fun times.

Nephrology
02-12-2016, 04:37 PM
I am doing my preceptorship in the emergency department of the largest, busiest, and most well-reputed level 1 trauma center in my time zone. As such, we get lots of penetrating trauma (GSWs, stabbings) and blunt trauma. We are also the city hospital, and as such get lots of lower income patients and pretty much get ALL of the pre-detention medical visits.

I would NOT want to work there if it was not for the armed security guards and constant presence of sheriffs deputies, etc. Hell no. Very happy they are there and they are armed.

Coyotesfan97
02-12-2016, 06:08 PM
I worked off duty in a local hospital ER for a month in December. The security guards had pepper spray. They had orderlies, although I don't know if that was their job title, in the area where they put disruptive patients. Most of them were large males. They called security if someone became disruptive. If you were disruptive enough you got strapped to the gurney.

My department does off duty there 24/7. You work a 12 hour shift. Basically you are the sheriff of the ER and you can call the cavalry if needed and/or take action as needed. Lots of craziness and addicts looking for fixes.

JSGlock34
02-12-2016, 06:16 PM
This thread made me think of this recent story...

Man with a self-inflicted gunshot wound shoots his way into Reston Hospital Center (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/fairfax-county-say-there-was-a-shooting-incident-overnight-at-reston-hospital/2016/02/10/0479d7a4-cfe0-11e5-b2bc-988409ee911b_story.html)

45dotACP
02-12-2016, 06:30 PM
My hospital recently made the switch to armed security. We're one of the busiest level one trauma centers in the southern Chicago area (meaning a lot of shootings, stabbings etc from the south side wind up here).

I prefer it. We had a shooting back in 2001...a murder-suicide of a terminal patient by their spouse and that really threw into focus how the bosses felt about medical staff and security dealing with an active shooter.

As far as security having to shoot a rowdy patient....its never happened, but they exercise significant restraint because the majority of times we call them, it's because a patient is detoxifying from alcohol (it's one of the worst substances to detox from), experiencing a temporary or permanent delirium state or is otherwise unable to make any rational decisions and has come down on the "assholish" side of the spectrum. Hey, it happens. Every day I'll deal with someone whose decision making process is impaired and security deals with those people multiple times a day. Shooting them because they punched a nurse in the face is off the table. They could get tased I suppose.

I mostly figure our armed security is for when Mr. Laquan Dindunuffin is recuperating from his multiple GSWs and his "long lost cousin" comes to visit him...and by "visit" I mean finish him off in retaliation for that drive by that left someone's baby momma shot.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Nephrology
02-13-2016, 12:27 PM
My hospital recently made the switch to armed security. We're one of the busiest level one trauma centers in the southern Chicago area (meaning a lot of shootings, stabbings etc from the south side wind up here).

I prefer it. We had a shooting back in 2001...a murder-suicide of a terminal patient by their spouse and that really threw into focus how the bosses felt about medical staff and security dealing with an active shooter.

As far as security having to shoot a rowdy patient....its never happened, but they exercise significant restraint because the majority of times we call them, it's because a patient is detoxifying from alcohol (it's one of the worst substances to detox from), experiencing a temporary or permanent delirium state or is otherwise unable to make any rational decisions and has come down on the "assholish" side of the spectrum. Hey, it happens. Every day I'll deal with someone whose decision making process is impaired and security deals with those people multiple times a day. Shooting them because they punched a nurse in the face is off the table. They could get tased I suppose.

I mostly figure our armed security is for when Mr. Laquan Dindunuffin is recuperating from his multiple GSWs and his "long lost cousin" comes to visit him...and by "visit" I mean finish him off in retaliation for that drive by that left someone's baby momma shot.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Our armed security is mostly to filter out exactly that type of scenario. It is very common for individuals who have been shot/stabbed to not want to disclose who assaulted them (surprise surprise, but not our problem really). It is also very common for them to want to call their "people," which is definitely our problem.

Last time we had this scenario our patient was stabbed (but not badly, no major vascular injuries) and very intoxicated. Very insistent that he be able to call his "people." He became very confrontational and we called a team to intervene/restrain him. While he was being talked down and before the team arrived, a nurse pushed a "B52" into his IV (haldol, versed, bendaryl). By the time the team arrived, he was very cooperative and then PTFOd for 7-8 hrs.

Josh Runkle
02-13-2016, 12:57 PM
Most hospitals around here have armed security at the outside entrance to the emergency department. There are still several other unarmed entrances to the ED and nothing besides a very, very slow random patrol everywhere else. I think it is more "the idea of security and access control is a deterrent."

the_ure
02-15-2016, 04:19 AM
Had the misfortune of an incident on a gov funded vacation in southeast asia which necessitated a private plane ride which ended me up in a mil hospital in WA.
While there my brother came to visit me, he brought some crackers, some cheese, and a small folding knife for application of cheese.
I had 'armed security' block off the room, and ask to search my person and effects for weapons.
To my recently repatriated self, I had no weapons, as my m9, m4, m14, m249, moss500, and various rocket weapons, grenades, c4 etc. were all signed over when I left theatre.
The head security guy was maybe of a cooler mind and asked everyone else to leave the room.
He apologized and explained that a nurse had seen the knife and felt threatened and unsafe.
Of course the reason she can have that stupid feeling of safety outside my dangerous hospital room is that my brothers were bleeding and dying worldwide for her safety.
In fact I had a crushed right hand and arm, and in order to get up to piss I had to carry that arm with my remaining one.
I had nerve blockers and a delicious pain button that I could hit every 10 minutes and 38 seconds in order to not see stars from pain.
Don't really see that I how I was a threat to her. Even when whole, I was her protection.
All that to say, Concealed Carry is an irritating convention, as it makes people think that good guys don't have guns.
In many 'stans, even under mil control a man is allowed to carry a full auto ak or whatever in order to defend himself or family.
In the land of the free you aren't.
If there is an exemption in the constitution, that nulls its effects in hospitals, schools, and courts, I haven't seen it.

If you are against a person defending themselves, you are not an American, nor a decent human being.
Keep and bear.

Josh Runkle
02-15-2016, 05:17 AM
To my recently repatriated self, I had no weapons, as my m9, m4, m14, m249, moss500, and various rocket weapons, grenades, c4 etc. were all signed over when I left theatre.


This is exactly what I pictured from your post...and what you need to do next time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-9fQ4-eqaoE

Hambo
02-15-2016, 06:23 AM
I have a challenge for anyone who thinks there shouldn't be armed security in hospitals: spend one Friday or Saturday night in the waiting room of a large, urban trauma center.

Josh Runkle
02-15-2016, 08:15 AM
I have a challenge for anyone who thinks there shouldn't be armed security in hospitals: spend one Friday or Saturday night in the waiting room of a large, urban trauma center.

It's not that I don't believe in armed security...nearly all of us on this website arm ourselves for security. I'm happy to see armed security guards securing things while armed, too. The problem I have with hospital security, and most armed security...courthouses, TSA, etc., is that it is a joke. It is part of the "mitigate" and "prepare" part of the response plan, but not part of the "respond" or "recover" sections.

Hospitals would probably be better off with bouncers and a wait list than with security.

Hizzie
02-15-2016, 08:59 AM
The vast majority of the nurses in my ER are female. Most of the security guys are already retired. We have a single LEO there part time. There are only three of us that were trained to Do Know Harm in our previous careers. It is not uncommon for nurses to get punched or kicked.

Hambo
02-15-2016, 09:08 AM
Hospitals would probably be better off with bouncers and a wait list than with security.

If you believe that, you need to make the field trip I suggested. My wife has been a nurse for nearly thirty years, and the best hospital she worked in had its own sworn PD. They addressed hospital specific issues, not courthouse or airport security. There was one OIS that I know of that probably prevented greater violence.

voodoo_man
02-15-2016, 09:25 AM
I have a challenge for anyone who thinks there shouldn't be armed security in hospitals: spend one Friday or Saturday night in the waiting room of a large, urban trauma center.

Been there, done that, no thanks...

Duelist
02-15-2016, 09:44 AM
In the nineties, I worked my last two years of college in a state mental hospital as a CNA. They paid 2x minimum wage, had full time shift work, and medical benefits, and I had a new baby.

I got punched, kicked, spat upon, feces thrown at me, screaming naked people threatening to sex me to death, got to clean up blood from self-harm situations, cut down attempted suicides, got my knee smashed with a chair - that guy apologized after he got stabilized.

It's mental health care. Most of them, when they need to get shot, need Haldol or something, more than a JHP.

Our facility security was sworn peace officers who had all graduated from the state academy, but carried no firearms. County deputies backed them up as needed. Our guys carried OC, batons, etc. I carried a pair of standard police cuffs I got from my dad (retired cop), and they got used from time to time.

A lot of our staff were in college. One guy, my age, two months from graduation and with a new baby, got punched in the face one night. Crushed his cheekbone and the orbital around his eye. Eye wasn't exactly in his face, more like on it, when they wheeled him out. He never came back - they gave him some kind of pension.

Dangerous work. I left there after graduation and joined the Army. Day-to-day, I felt like the Army was safer.

voodoo_man
02-15-2016, 09:55 AM
In the nineties, I worked my last two years of college in a state mental hospital as a CNA. They paid 2x minimum wage, had full time shift work, and medical benefits, and I had a new baby.

I got punched, kicked, spat upon, feces thrown at me, screaming naked people threatening to sex me to death, got to clean up blood from self-harm situations, cut down attempted suicides, got my knee smashed with a chair - that guy apologized after he got stabilized.

It's mental health care. Most of them, when they need to get shot, need Haldol or something, more than a JHP.

Our facility security was sworn peace officers who had all graduated from the state academy, but carried no firearms. County deputies backed them up as needed. Our guys carried OC, batons, etc. I carried a pair of standard police cuffs I got from my dad (retired cop), and they got used from time to time.

A lot of our staff were in college. One guy, my age, two months from graduation and with a new baby, got punched in the face one night. Crushed his cheekbone and the orbital around his eye. Eye wasn't exactly in his face, more like on it, when they wheeled him out. He never came back - they gave him some kind of pension.

Dangerous work. I left there after graduation and joined the Army. Day-to-day, I felt like the Army was safer.

If you read this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/06/30/distraught-people-deadly-results/) and disregard all the anti-LE rhetorical bullshit, the data roughly shows that one in four people who are killed by the police (not made contact with, I'll get to that below) have some sign of mental illness.

The real number or statistical figure is probably a little closer to 30-40%, at least that is what I get from personal experience. Of them, having to use force against a mentally ill person is almost always the last possible resort.

I've had run ins with so many intellectually deficient people its really mind blowing, then again, the bigger the AO the higher chances you will get involved with someone like this. Drug and alcohol abuse just expound this, unfortunately, and add to the very real issue of using force on these types of people.

Nephrology
02-15-2016, 10:19 AM
If you read this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/06/30/distraught-people-deadly-results/) and disregard all the anti-LE rhetorical bullshit, the data roughly shows that one in four people who are killed by the police (not made contact with, I'll get to that below) have some sign of mental illness.

The real number or statistical figure is probably a little closer to 30-40%, at least that is what I get from personal experience. Of them, having to use force against a mentally ill person is almost always the last possible resort.

I've had run ins with so many intellectually deficient people its really mind blowing, then again, the bigger the AO the higher chances you will get involved with someone like this. Drug and alcohol abuse just expound this, unfortunately, and add to the very real issue of using force on these types of people.

It is a little bit different in an inpatient mental health facility where there patients have been (presumably) searched and had had all weapons/potential weapons removed and are supposedly housed in an environment free of potential weapons. In this case, much like most jails/prisons, it is safer to keep guns out of the equation as they are more likely than not unnecessary and, if anything, only a further potential weapon for a patient to acquire.

In the ED, however, things are a little different. Not as easy to contain people problems, even with metal detectors. Especially for true visitors...

voodoo_man
02-15-2016, 10:44 AM
It is a little bit different in an inpatient mental health facility where there patients have been (presumably) searched and had had all weapons/potential weapons removed and are supposedly housed in an environment free of potential weapons. In this case, much like most jails/prisons, it is safer to keep guns out of the equation as they are more likely than not unnecessary and, if anything, only a further potential weapon for a patient to acquire.

In the ED, however, things are a little different. Not as easy to contain people problems, even with metal detectors. Especially for true visitors...

I have had the occasion to transport EDP's to facilities and was told "lock it up" when I walked in. I told them they can take the guy off my hands here or I can leave him here but there is no way I am disarming in that place. 99.99% understand though once in a while I get the "those are the rules!" As if their rules apply to me.

I do agree, however, there may be logical thought to the concept of keeping firearms out of a secured facility where everyone is searched and presumably regulated with enough staff. Otherwise, in a standard ER or "come as you please" hospital, I would caution on the side of lethal force.

11B10
02-15-2016, 11:57 AM
Duelist, the_ure - welcome to pf and thanks for some great words.

Josh Runkle
02-15-2016, 12:25 PM
If you believe that, you need to make the field trip I suggested. My wife has been a nurse for nearly thirty years, and the best hospital she worked in had its own sworn PD. They addressed hospital specific issues, not courthouse or airport security. There was one OIS that I know of that probably prevented greater violence.

#1: I'm a paramedic. Well aware of what hospitals are like.

#2: Sworn PD is different than your average armed security. Management might actually listen to their suggestions about how to secure a facility. They might actually have experience that informs their security setup.

#3: We should also recognize that some people are referencing different things when they say "hospital". To the cops here: the cops usually/most likely mean Emergency Room or Emergency Department. This might be <5% of the total hospital. Security situation on both sides (bad guys and good guys) is entirely different than the rest of the facility. Also, a community hospital is entirely different than a level 1 trauma center. Not only in care provided and clientele, but also in surrounding civilian populations. Community hospitals are out in the country with small populations who generally have lower crime rates, and level 1 trauma centers are generally in terrible neighborhoods surrounded by ghettos where people like to shoot and stab each other.

I think we're agreeing with the endgame: hospitals need to be safe and secure facilities. I would like to see it be done effectively. I'm not advocating to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", I'm just saying that it needs to be more than flash and show.

For example: most emergency departments utilize a method of security that we would call "access control", where people who wish to enter the department are searched for weapons and screened for demeanor/potential threat, and then there is a secondary layer of security that we can call "uniformed response". A situation arises, a person in uniform responds. Access control only actually works when you control all access, meaning, there should be screening and active rather than passive monitoring at all access points: not just the front door, but also the doors that connect to other departments or sections of the hospital, the doors that open to ambulance arrival, elevators that might go to other floors, etc...Most hospitals utilize a passive response to access control, like keycard access or a keypad. The facility, or portion of a facility is not actually secure, it just appears to be. Any two-bit crook can simply wait for one of the controlled entry points to open and then walk through. Additionally, many of the chemical restraints available will do WAY more to subdue a crazy person than a uniformed response. Not because the uniformed person isn't trained, but simply because they don't either have the tools to restrain the mentally ill person that will work, or the tools to counteract the drugs in someone's system that are giving them a crazy amount of strength.

Point: there are people who carry stuff right through security every day, people who sneak past security, management who don't provide the training or tools to people to do their job adequately. I'm not against hospital security. I'm just wishing that "secure" means "secure". Until it does, I do not wish to have my right to survive stolen away from me by people who are putting on a show that they are protecting me, but cannot adequately accomplish that task, and limit my ability to protect myself, which forces me into an area of more risk, rather than less.

WOLFIE
02-15-2016, 04:01 PM
Hospitals with an emergency room need police officers (armed is a given) and not security. Security guards do not have the training, are paid less than police officers, and lack arrest powers. Police with training regarding working in a medical / hospital environment is the best answer.

There is a hospital in LA that has university police. When hospital administers talked about replacing the police with armed security, many in the medical staff said they would go to another medical job if that happened.

TGS
02-15-2016, 04:05 PM
Armed security is like any other product.....it's supplied to the customers specifications.

The problem isn't armed security vs sworn PD. The problem is what the hospital is willing to pay for. Some of the best force pro in America is provided via contract security. You guys are being very narrow in who you think represents the contract security field, most likely as a means of supporting your argument.

pablo
02-15-2016, 06:36 PM
Hospitals with an emergency room need police officers (armed is a given) and not security. Security guards do not have the training, are paid less than police officers, and lack arrest powers. Police with training regarding working in a medical / hospital environment is the best answer.

There is a hospital in LA that has university police. When hospital administers talked about replacing the police with armed security, many in the medical staff said they would go to another medical job if that happened.

Hospitals need both. Police can't enforce house rules and security can't enforce the law. I know a lot of officers that do it, but an officer that enforces house rules is asking to get jammed up in a bad way.

WOLFIE
02-16-2016, 08:56 PM
Armed security is like any other product.....it's supplied to the customers specifications.

The problem isn't armed security vs sworn PD. The problem is what the hospital is willing to pay for. Some of the best force pro in America is provided via contract security. You guys are being very narrow in who you think represents the contract security field, most likely as a means of supporting your argument.

Regarding hospital security, if you can choose between police or a very good security company and the cost is comparible, why not choose police? Is there an advantage in employing a security officer over a police officer? You are right about what the hospital is willing to pay for. I will admit that my view on security was narrow; i am ignorant when it comes to security companies and their training.

TGS
02-16-2016, 09:15 PM
Regarding hospital security, if you can choose between police or a very good security company and the cost is comparible, why not choose police? Is there an advantage in employing a security officer over a police officer? You are right about what the hospital is willing to pay for. I will admit that my view on security was narrow; i am ignorant when it comes to security companies and their training.

The cost isn't going to be comparable in many cases, which is the point. For a given task, condition and standard, contractors will usually be cheaper.

Contractors don't have pensions or expensive benefit packages. Contractors are easily hired and fired. Contractors can have training packages tailored to the mission at hand instead of a standard police academy which includes all kinds of training that has nothing to do with site security.

Yeah, if you're talking Top Flight Security vs a police department, I'd take the police department any fucking day of the week. No brainer. Most hospitals choose Top Flight because it's 1) cheap, 2) reduces liability by saying they had taken reasonable measures, and 3) if there is an increased need for armed security, they can tap into local police. With the exception of state run facilities like the psych prisons and UMD Newark, that's how it works in NJ, at least. They call and get a multi-jurisdiction response from departments as needed.

It's all about what the hospital wants to pay for.

45dotACP
02-16-2016, 11:15 PM
I bumped into some of our security guys on the range the other day...one of them led me to believe their qualification course is fairly easy yet more rigorous than the Illinois CCP qualification. They're good guys, and have helped me handle rowdy patients before. Mostly they are called for that sort of thing...a rowdy patient or family member who needs to either be strapped down or shown the door. They carry sidearms, tasers, batons, handcuffs and wear armor. They seem professional and they're good at handling their usual "customers" which generally includes combative patients, asshole families/visitors and just in general violent jerks.

We haven't had a shooting in some time but my hospital tends to realize that those without swords can still die on them, so they don't raise a fuss about armed security.

As for whether I'd trust them for an active shooter situation, well I'd trust myself more having heard one tell me that he doesn't see the need to practice outside of qualifications and that he really just puts in practice if he failed qualifications and gets to retry. I think they are required to qualify twice yearly, but I got the impression that for him it was more an inconvenience that he had to put up for a job. So while I don't doubt he'd exchange shots with an active shooter, I'd still like to be allowed CCW in the hospital, but that'll never happen.

For that other stuff, combative patients etc...yeah I love to have those guys and gals around.

I don't think our security officers are contractors, as they are hired and employed by the medical group that my hospital is a part of. They are offered benefits, but definitely not paid the same as police officers, so I suspect it is cheaper to hire them than police officers. Being a level 1 trauma hospital in the south side, the police are in our ED fairly regularly, so getting ahold of a cop isn't super difficult..there's usually pretty good odds that one will be there. Especially with the fairly stunning amount of shootings in the city lately..even by Chicago standards.

TGS
02-16-2016, 11:25 PM
As for whether I'd trust them for an active shooter situation, well I'd trust myself more having heard one tell me that he doesn't see the need to practice outside of qualifications and that he really just puts in practice if he failed qualifications and gets to retry. I think they are required to qualify twice yearly, but I got the impression that for him it was more an inconvenience that he had to put up for a job.

Sounds like plenty of LEOs I've met, honestly.

voodoo_man
02-17-2016, 04:08 PM
Sounds like plenty of LEOs I've met, honestly.

If by plenty you mean most, than yes.

Unobtanium
02-18-2016, 05:02 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/us/hospital-guns-mental-health.html?_r=0

Are guns appropriate?
Should they be used on emotional disturbed or mental ill folk who are out of control or dangerous?
Are they over used or are the security guards trained enough for these unique situations?

Pros and cons.

A clinical friend of mine in the 70's worked in an institution. If a patient was out of control, all the men were to surround said patient and take off their glasses. Another had his front teeth knocked out.

My opinion is that firearms should be used by officers/security with PROPER training. Noone who has hands-on with patients as a normal course of business should have a firearm. There are just too many situations where a gun-grab can occur in a critical care/ER setting if healthcare personnel have weapons on them.

Also, most hospital security is a joke, which is why I say officers. We had a guy at one hospital I worked for, who carried a single-action .22 revolver because it was $1/hr more to him. When I asked if it was SA or DA, he GOOGLED the damn answer!

Most of the officers tasked to work in one of the ER's I was in were also hostage negotiator trained, etc. They were not "new guy on the job getting a few extra hours". Full body armor, etc. and they stayed OUT of patient care areas unless needed. Then they switched to private contracted security, and the firearms and body armor went away, but they did at least pick some seriously capable looking guys (6'4,250#, football player, lol)

Where I am now, the security looks like bellhop's at a hotel. No weapons, young, small guys, etc. make up about half of it. Janitor looking guys (mid 30's/40's probably okay in a fight) make up the other half, from what I've seen.

peterb
02-18-2016, 06:45 AM
http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/579/my-damn-mind

Heard this yesterday. Was done in partnership with the NY Times story linked above. First episode is about a psych patient who is shot by police in his hospital room. The officers apparently had no training in dealing with delusional behavior, and things got out of hand. Staff said that kind of patient behavior was routine for them.

Big takeaway was that folks working security -- or carrying weapons -- in a hospital need specific training and protocols for that environment.

Dr. No
02-18-2016, 07:31 AM
Big takeaway was that folks carrying weapons need training.


Fixed it for you.

TheRoland
02-18-2016, 08:13 AM
Fixed it for you.

I really don't think that's a good fix. I think it's fairly evident that dealing with people who have debilitating mental illness is a specific skill set and that training for that is not done at the range.