FN FNS-9

[NorthernHeat]

Anybody have any experience with the FN FNS-9 full size?

Sage Dynamics just posted a review about it and made it look like a pretty good option.

I had not heard much about it.

[TheNewbie]

I like the feel and the balance. The trigger was not smooth to me but was shootable. If they made one with a decent sized safety it very well could be my carry gun.

[Luke]

The grip is odd. Rougher than anything else but still slippery? Limited sight options (back when I had one, now no idea) lots of little pieces inside. Trigger was "meh" and at the time nothing you could do to make it better.

[Trooper224]

I owned one for a short time. There wasn't anything obviously wrong with it, but neither was there anything particularly outstanding about it. I wouldn't pick one over most of the other plastic fantastics.

[Clay]

I owned one for a short time. There wasn't anything obviously wrong with it, but neither was there anything particularly outstanding about it. I wouldn't pick one over most of the other plastic fantastics.

Ditto. If you don't want a Glock just 'cause, then it's a great option.

[NorthernHeat]

Is there anything that this gun does that a Glock or SIG 320 do not?

If someone is looking for a "non-Glock" option, would there be any reason to go with an FNS over a 320?

[Clay]

The FNS-9 has a great grip, IMO, much better than the SIG. I love the texture of the FN. The reloads are crazy easy, too. The SIG runs about $100 more than the FN where I'm at. I'm equally unimpressed with both guns compared to a Glock 19, but that's just me. I just didn't find the juice worth the squeeze. I'm married to Glock. I can get cheap mags and a bazillion different sights and holsters and parts and.....

The only thing I truly disliked about the FNS-9 is that the takedown lever got really hot, really fast, and it bugged me during extended shooting sessions.

[jnc36rcpd]

My department started issuing the FNS-9 several months ago. To my knowledge, we're the only agency in the nation to do so though Baltimore County PD issues the FNS-40 long slide.

Qualification scores have gone up significantly. The weapon is certainly lighter and more compact than our previous SIG 226 .40's.

Some weapons had significant reliability issues with the Streamlight TLR-1 HL attached. Mine had no issues for several hundred rounds before double feeding twice attempting qualification.I have since put about six hundred rounds through it with a Surefire and had no reliability issues (until the pistol started launching the light downrange, but that is likely an issue with the light). After some testing, FN decided the issue was the combination of the TLR-1 and our training ammunition).

One of the night sights on my pistol had a half life of about five weeks. I carried a loaner from the armory. I experienced several malfunctions while firing about two hundred rounds, primarily early in the session. I suspect some of these weapons may need a break-in period.

Holsters are becoming more available, but they are still somewhat few and far between. Off duty, I've been using a Galco IWB that Chuck Haggard was kind enough to send me. Some M&P holsters will handle the FNS-9 quite handily.

There are no Simunition barrels available though we are reassured that they are on the way (just like we were reassured American Eagle caused the malfunctions with the Streamlights). So far, I have been unable to locate any FNS-9 airsofts for force-on-force.

I don't personally shoot the weapon as well as I would like, but as I said, qualifications scores have improved.

[kcevans]

Look for past post on the FNS, Mr. Langdon did up an article a few years ago that should give some fairly good insight on what the platform is capable of.

[PPGMD]

I have a FNS-9L that I got off the prize tables. I don't have enough rounds through it to give any long term opinion about reliability. So I can only speak to what I have shot with it.

Recoil is comparable to other guns in its class.

Trigger is much better than a Glock, but due to being DAO it doesn't compare to pre-cocked striker guns particularly the new ones like the 320, and the VP9.

Take down is a little complicated, and unless I am missing something requires you to pull the trigger (which is not a huge issue for me, but a problem for some agency buyers).

The mag well is HUGE, and due to the design of the magazines it is probably the easiest gun to stick the reload on. I am seriously surprised this gun is production approved by the NROI.

Holster, sights, and any after market support is very limited. But OTOH magazines are actually in stock at many retailers, something that can't be said for some of the newer guns on the market which are selling out the moment a batch hits the internet.

[GJM]

FIFY




Trigger is much better than a stock Glock, but due to being DAO it doesn't compare to pre-cocked striker guns particularly the new ones like the 320, and the VP9, or a Glock with an after market trigger. There don't seem to be many options for trigger work on the FNS.

FN had a window of opportunity, as Glock and the M&P stumbled, and before the 320 and VP9, but again they showed how ambivalent they are about the US handgun market.

[JDM]

I've posted this before, but I'll say it again because it's been a few years:

I tried my FNS 9 in lots and lots of M&P 9 kydex holsters and every single one fit the FNS like it was made for it. Say what you will about the FNS 9, but holster availability isn't one of its drawbacks.

[NorthernHeat]

If anybody knows MIL/ LEO pricing on these can you PM me please.

I have 4-5 M&P holsters, so the holster compatibility would be a definite plus

[LJD]

I had one for about 5 months. Felt fantastic in my medium-sized hands and pointed great. Reloads were a breeze due to the massive mag well. The trigger was pretty good, too, but it was also its biggest drawback. There really was no way to polish or otherwise improve the trigger to make it great. If you care about that, look elsewhere.

[HCM]

If anybody knows MIL/ LEO pricing on these can you PM me please.

I have 4-5 M&P holsters, so the holster compatibility would be a definite plus

https://www.gtdist.com/products/guns-firearms.html?cat=492

[Pukindog12]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHKBPd-ssv4

Good review.

[HopetonBrown]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHKBPd-ssv4

Good review.

Alot of these reviews are really ads.

One of the many self appointed YouTube experts who like everything, and that I don't care about.

[HCM]

I had one for about 5 months. Felt fantastic in my medium-sized hands and pointed great. Reloads were a breeze due to the massive mag well. The trigger was pretty good, too, but it was also its biggest drawback. There really was no way to polish or otherwise improve the trigger to make it great. If you care about that, look elsewhere.

I have toyed with the idea of an FNS, I like the grip, trigger, sights and mag well but I also have some concerns:

1) The ambi mag release is known to accidentally eject mags when worn close to the body, particularly IWB / AIWB.
2) The internals are full of tiny parts and quite complicated. Service and repair are problematic.
3) I know of two high profile gun people who began long term reviews of the FNS. Both got a few thousand rounds in and just stopped with no explanation or further mention of the FNS. While not conclusive, the silence speaks volumes to me.

[Trooper224]

Since HCM mentioned the mag release, that brings to mind one of my gripes with the FNS: I didn't have a problem with accidentally dropping the mag, my issue was quite the opposite. My middle finger would often make contact with the off side button and prevent me from dropping the mag. I'd have to make sure to loosen my grip during reloads to prevent it. This detail turned me off of ambi. mag releases.

[Pukindog12]

3) I know of two high profile gun people who began long term reviews of the FNS. Both got a few thousand rounds in and just stopped with no explanation or further mention of the FNS. While not conclusive, the silence speaks volumes to me.

Any links to this? If so I am curious as to who they may be and what was or wasn't stated about the FNS9.

[breakingtime91]

Sage dynamics just ran a two thousand round test on one. He is a die hard glock guy but was impressed by the fns.

[pblanc]

Is there anything that this gun does that a Glock or SIG 320 do not?

If someone is looking for a "non-Glock" option, would there be any reason to go with an FNS over a 320?

I shot a couple of magazines through a FNH FNS 40 a while back. I was reasonably impressed with it. But to answer your question, no, I don't think it offers anything over the SIG P320 at least. I don't care too much for Glocks as they don't feel comfortable in my hand and don't point naturally for me.

The grip on the FNH FNS was reasonably comfortable (I would probably prefer it to even the Gen 4 Glock 19 grip) but it was not nearly as comfortable as the medium grip module on my full-size SIG P320. The trigger was OK but not as good as my SIG.

I bought my SIG P320 F 45 NIB with night sights for just under $500 delivered, very comparable and perhaps a little cheaper than a Gen 4 Glock 19 with contrast sights. You might be able to pick up a FNH FNS9 a little cheaper.

Unless you wanted a manual safety (available on the FNS9, not available on the Glock and not currently available on the SIG) or you really needed to save $50-75 or so, I can't see that the FNS9 would offer anything over the other 2 pistols.

[HCM]

Any links to this? If so I am curious as to who they may be and what was or wasn't stated about the FNS9.

Ernest Langdon ran one for awhile back in 2014 as documented in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11515-FNH-FNS9-Two-Weeks-and-2-265-rounds/page19&highlight=FNS9

FredM began a 2000 round challenge on and FNS 9 and reported issues with it in this thread.



Around 2013 / 2014 John Johnson at Ballistic Radio started carrying and testing a pair of FNS 9L's. You won't find mention of it on the ballistic radio website but if you go to the podcasts from time frame you will hear him talk about it.

On a positive note I recall GJM reporting his FNS 40 reliably fed 40 cal hard cast SWC loads which had issues in other platforms.

[GJM]

Good memory -- the FNS .40 did feed 200 grain hard cast. I like the pistol -- accurate, big mag well, decent OEM night sights, and never malfunctioned in the 1000+ rounds I have put through it. The mag release had to be switched out for the next gen smaller one. Of course, that is a sample of one.

I also have a full size and long slide 9. Never shot enough rounds through either to form an opinion beyond they were accurate. If someone is looking for one let me know.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

FN is sending me one right now...I shot one a bit on their dime and liked the trigger and the magwell, so I'm kind of interested.

My usual line is "I don't really understand why anyone builds more polymer 9 strikers" because the market's pretty stitched up and really...what are you going to do that's interesting?

But recently I've been a bit impressed with what FN is doing as a company so I thought I would give them some time. Basically, I like companies that look at Canada and think, hey, if we played hockey with their stupid rules, we could sell guns, so let's make some Canada-friendly guns".

And FN has been bizarrely responsive to our input.

[iWander]

I have owned many Glocks over the years & just don't shoot them as well as my other guns. I own several P320s & love them because of their light weight, great trigger & similar feel to my duty P229.

My stepson was looking for a HD gun & didn't have a lot of cash. I decided to have range time where he could compare several guns side by side with the intention of helping him buy the one he liked & shot the best. I invited several friends that were also looking for HD or CCW guns.

All were 9mm & roughly the same size and/or capacity. Between a Glock 19, P320C, Beretta 92, FNS9, XDM 3.9, P229 & P250C, all but one liked the ergos, sights & trigger of the FNS9 the best & all shot it the best. I liked the FNS9 so much I bought 2.

As far as pricing goes, forget LEO/MIL. My stepson's & both of mine were "used" (but looked brand new) but $425 or less shipped.

As far as holsters, I bought a clearance El Paso leather OWB for an XD45 & lightly boned it to fit my P320. It now fits & retains the 320, FNS9, wife's G17 & P229.

[HCM]

So Baltimore County MD, the largest LE users of the FNS seem to have two reports of true AD's (as opposed to NDs) with their FNS long slides, one of which supposedly occurred while the gun was holstered.

I'm always a bit suspicious of cops reporting "Immaculate Discharges" but it does happen occasionally.

http://foxbaltimore.com/news/cover-story/how-safe-are-police-service-weapons


BALTIMORE (WBFF) - There are two investigations centered on the gun almost all Baltimore County Police officers use as side arms. Crime and Justice Reporter Joy Lepola began investigating these guns more than 18 months ago. One of those guns went off inside a police precinct, while secured inside an officer's holster.

On February 2, 2016, a Baltimore County police officer walks into the Pikesville Precinct when the jolt of a gunshot, stops him from taking another step. What's unclear is how it happened.

According to reports FOX45 obtained from the county, the officer says the gun discharged while in its holster. Five officers gave statements saying they were nearby when they heard the gunshot.

The department says it is unaware of a holstered gun ever discharging until now. The department was warned it could happen.

In 2014, a FOX45 investigation uncovered serious safety concerns buried within hundreds of reports and inter-office emails. At the time, the county was in the process of buying new guns for every police officer, almost 2,000 .40 caliber pistols made by FN-America. In one complaint, an officer claimed a round went off without someone's finger on the trigger.

Baltimore County Police Chief Jim Johnson supported spending almost a million dollars on the guns.

"I don't want anything out there that's inferior. I won't stand for it. I don't care what the cost. If I made a mistake, which I certainly don't believe we did, I would admit it," he said back in November 2014.

Joy Lepola asked Baltimore County Police spokesperson Elise Armicost if previous concerns about the guns are supported by the incident that happened in Pikesville.

"We don't know what happened. We don't know if there was some sort of operator error, whether there was some sort of external factor that the officer didn't describe, we just don't know until the review is complete," Armicost said.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/bs-md-co-service-weapon-discharge-20160302-story.html

Baltimore Co. police investigate discharge of officer's holstered gun


A ballistics lab is examining a Baltimore County police officer's service weapon after he said the gun discharged at a police station while it was holstered.

No one was injured in the Feb. 2 incident at the Pikesville precinct, police spokeswoman Elise Armacost said Wednesday.

The gun, an FNS-40, was sent to HP White Laboratory, a ballistics testing lab in Harford County. The department contracted with the lab to examine the weapon and help review what happened.

Armacost said the incident was "an accidental discharge." The officer, a seven-year veteran, said he had entered the precinct just after noon when the gun fired "without his having touched it," Armacost said in an e-mail to The Baltimore Sun.

"The events described by the officer are highly unusual," Armacost said. "The department has had accidental discharges in the past involving various types of firearms, but those have all involved user error or some external factor."

[HCM]

Some pertinent details supporting "immaculate discharge" - Baltimore county officers use a Safariland 6360 ALS/SLS Mid-Ride, Level III Retention Duty Holster. Based on todays press release, the weapon was secured in the holster. They are reporting the officers hands were full at the time of occurrence. They are also reporting when the supervisor removed the gun from the retention holster, the spent cartridge was apparently still in the chamber - it ejected when the supervisor cleared the weapon.

http://bearingarms.com/baltimore-county-police-stunned-accidential-discharge-new-pistol/


Rank and file Baltimore County Police, their firearm selection committee, and agency brass are now very uncertain about that choice, after what appears to be the accidental discharge of one of these pistols while it was secured in a retention holster and both of the officer’s hands were full. When the supervising officer removed the gun from the retention holster, he removed the magazine and ejected the spent cartridge.

[DocSabo40]

I'm not that familiar with the FNS striker system. How many things would have to happen simultaneously for the pistol to actually discharge without being touched? I imagine at the very least these have some form of mechanical striker block, and then the trigger bar/striker interface.

[RJ]

Very interested in the above info. ^^^

Not Good to have pistols like that, if this is indeed an AD.

[ballr4lyf]

Most likely scenario, IMH(umble)O:

Something thin and flexible (like a draw string) got into the trigger guard when the gun was holstered. It reached the proper level of taught-ness as the officer reached for the door handle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Did anyone here anything else about the AD with the FNS long slide ?

The info below was posted by a PF member whose department adopted the FNS9 - there isn't much hard use feed back on them so I found it educational.


Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
I currently pack an FNS-9 that was chosen by popular vote. We looked at SigSauer (229, 229DAK, and 250), S&W (M&P40 and M&P40C) Glock (22 and 23) and FN (FNS and FNX). Various officers shot drills with the weapons. Some were rejected outright and most seemed to like Glock, M&P, and FNS. That said, the people who liked the FNS really liked it and their very high scores for the weapon weighted the survey in favor of the FNS. I cannot speak to why HK, Beretta, Ruger, Walther, and other manufacturers were not included in the test. Then we decided that we should go with 9mm.

The FNS-9 has been a challenge. The weapons malfunction with some frequency, especially with the issue TLR-1 HL attached. The sights require alignment of the dots rather than the posts. Two weapons had to besent back to have night sights replaced. One gun went down completely when dropped on concrete and awaits return to the factory. The high profile ambidextrous magazine release tends to dump the magazine if bumped on either side. On the other hand, some have found the magazine release on the opposite side of the gun prevents the mag from dropping smoothly. FN does produce a low profile magazine release which was on the FNS-9c that we evaluated for plainclothes use, but that required me to put the weapon on a bench to eject the magazine. (When two police/gun magazine reviews mention the issue of the magazine release, you know a gun has problems.) To their credit, FN America just replaced all of our barrels and magazines with new designs (albeit I was surprised that they didn't realize that a contract agency with problems had the old barrels.) That said, I am hopeful the reliability problems have been fixed. The next range date will tell.

Clearly, we did not do things the right way. That said, city purchasing regulations preclude us from a major purchase based solely on the chief's or the firearms instructors' preference. nyeti (or others), any suggestions regarding how to write specifications for new weapons other than designing the proposal around a preference? We did that when we recommended the 9mm SIG 226 in the late eighties and nearly ended up with Berettas.

Thanks and be safe.

[HCM]

Looks like Baltimore County we’re not the only ones having FNS pistol issues.

https://www.azmirror.com/2019/04/22/after-discovering-critical-flaw-in-gun-dps-quietly-replacing-guns-issued-to-all-troopers/

After discovering critical flaw in gun, DPS quietly replacing guns issued to all troopers
BY: JEROD MACDONALD-EVOY - APRIL 22, 2019



Officer Richard Vankeuren had just come home from a day at the shooting range in April 2015 with a bag full of guns slung over his shoulder and his new duty pistol on his hip. The 20-year veteran of the Arizona Department of Public Safety was a firearms trainer and weapons expert, but he was about to experience a first.

As he lifted the bag off his shoulder, he heard a “boom” and smelled gunpowder. His first thought was that one of the guns in his bag had gone off.

Then he looked down.

Vankeuren’s Fabrique Nationale Herstal pistol had gone off in its holster, shooting him through the right leg.

The gun, an FNS 9, was one of the first Fabrique Nationale pistols purchased by DPS for use by its officers. Vankeuren was part of the Firearms Training Unit, the division within DPS that trains troopers and is also responsible for testing and evaluating new weapons for the force.

The investigation into Vankeuren’s accidental shooting determined that a key on the exterior of his bag had become wedged in the trigger.

But more than three years later, the Firearms Training Unit would discover an issue with the FNS 9 pistols that are the standard sidearm for every DPS trooper that causes them to fire unexpectedly – or not fire at all.

Shortly after the flaw was discovered, DPS began hurriedly replacing the roughly 1,500 FNS pistols it purchased over four years beginning in the 2015 fiscal year, when it ditched the SIG Sauer pistols that all troopers carried in the name of cost savings.

Faulty firearms ‘could cost people their lives’

In fiscal years 2015 through 2018, DPS spent about $281,000 to buy new FNS pistols, utilizing trade-ins to cut the costs of the new guns.

Dr. Michael Scott, a professor of criminology at Arizona State University who has worked with a number of law enforcement agencies across the country, said the problems DPS has discovered with the FNS pistols are concerning.

“This creates a higher risk for either accidental discharge or unintended failure to discharge, both of which could cost people their lives,” he said.

During testing of the weapons in 2018, DPS found that three Fabrique Nationale pistols – the FNS 9 Longslide, which was carried by troopers, and the FNS C and FNS 9 – all had two conditions that could cause them to either fire without pulling the trigger or not fire when the trigger was pulled.

It is unknown what prompted the additional testing some three years after DPS began arming troopers with the FNS pistols.

In a safety bulletin video released internally in August 2018 and obtained by the Arizona Mirror through a public records request, footage is shown of the weapons firing after being bumped or hit.

“A tap, rack, any side-to-side or up-and-down movement, a sharp jarring blow and even holstering and unholstering will cause the weapon to fire with no further contact with the trigger,” a narrator in the undated video says after explaining the conditions in which this malfunction can occur.

The malfunction happens when the slide of the gun is slightly pushed back and the trigger and action does not fully reset. This is called being “out of battery.”

When a pistol is out of battery, safety mechanisms initiate to ensure the gun does not fire. However, DPS found that, in some instances when the slide was put back into position, the FN pistols would fire.

DPS also discovered that sometimes the gun wouldn’t fire when the slide returned to its normal position – but if the weapon was bumped or hit, it would fire unexpectedly.

Scott, the ASU professor and law enforcement consultant, said if he had experienced something similar in his department, he’d likely suspend use of that firearm immediately.

It has been roughly eight months since DPS learned of the issue. DPS is in the process of switching from Fabrique Nationale to Glock pistols for duty weapons. So far this fiscal year, DPS has spent more than $160,000 on replacement pistols.

But the department still has 540 FNs in use, meaning nearly half of the agency’s troopers are carrying a weapon they know might accidentally discharge – or might not fire at all when they need it to.

There are no known incidents in which FNS guns carried by DPS troopers have failed to fire because the firearm was out of battery.

DPS spokesman Bart Graves said the agency is replacing the pistols not because of the defects that DPS discovered, but because FN notified DPS that it intends to “cease production” of the pistol.

DPS began testing out different pistols in 2014 to determine what might become the next duty sidearm for troopers. An evaluation of the FN pistols by the Firearms Training Unit found that the cost of FN pistols and their ammo would lead to “potential budget savings for the agency.”

The Baltimore connection

DPS isn’t the only agency replacing its officers FNS pistols. Some 2,000 miles away, the Baltimore County Police Department is replacing all of the Fabrique Nationale guns it bought in recent years after DPS shared its findings with the agency.

Why DPS never informed the general public that the FNS pistols, which are popular among recreational and competition shooters, were prone to malfunctioning is unknown.

Baltimore County is in the process of spending $1.4 million to replace more than 2,000 FNS pistols used not only by the police, but by correctional officers and sheriff’s deputies, according to the Baltimore Sun.

In August 2018, DPS sent Baltimore County its safety bulletin video, prompting the agency to conduct its own safety tests.

And Baltimore County discovered something more when examining the firearm.

Inside the trigger, the roll pin could fall out, which would cause the trigger to separate from the gun, making it impossible to fire. The department found three guns that experienced this issue in the past two years, the Baltimore Sun reported.

The company responded to media reports on the accidental discharges and issues found by Baltimore County, saying that the delayed fire would only happen in “unlikely circumstances” and that it “posted a Service Bulletin to the public with an offer of a free striker upgrade for those who wished to send their pistol in.”

The Mirror has requested all emails and memos between the two departments but was told the request will likely take up to 12 months.

In September 2018, a Baltimore County police officer carrying an FNS pistol shot himself while in training.

The officer was disassembling his sidearm when it misfired, the Baltimore Sun reported.

The series of pistols in question were created by Fabrique Nationale and are the company’s first striker pistols.

Striker pistols do not use a hammer as the main mechanism to fire the weapon, and are commonly used by law enforcement. Both Phoenix Police and Mesa Police use Glock’s line of striker pistols. DPS is also buying those Glock striker pistols to replace the FNS guns.

An internal striker mechanism is cocked when the slide of the gun is racked, or pulled back, which can only be undone by pulling the trigger. One reason DPS says it switched to striker pistols is that they allow troopers to shoot faster.

Fabrique Nationale has maintained that the weapons were thoroughly tested and that the situations that result in the misfires were unique and unlikely. The company did not respond to a request for comment from the Mirror.





https://youtu.be/20MaN_eD4w8

[jnc36rcpd]

FN has produced some really solid weapons over the decades. I'll be interested to see how the FN 509 performs. It seemed s solider platform than the FNS, but I just played with a display example at a trade show. FN has made some great weapons over the decades, but the FNS was not one of them.

[HCM]

FN has produced some really solid weapons over the decades. I'll be interested to see how the FN 509 performs. It seemed s solider platform than the FNS, but I just played with a display example at a trade show. FN has made some great weapons over the decades, but the FNS was not one of them.

Until FN got serious about competing for the MHS contract - resulting in the 509, their polymer frame service pistols all had serious flaws but the FNS was the worst. It was going off in holsters long before the P320 drama.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yikes...I didn't run mine that hard; I would have to check now but I'd guess maybe 4-5,000 rounds through it total. I don't recall specifically but just thinking about the time frame, I probably ran it through one pistol class and a bunch of random assorted shooting in between other stuff.

It ran fine and I had no issues, but it was not lost on me that they very quickly pivoted to the 509.

[HCM]

Yikes...I didn't run mine that hard; I would have to check now but I'd guess maybe 4-5,000 rounds through it total. I don't recall specifically but just thinking about the time frame, I probably ran it through one pistol class and a bunch of random assorted shooting in between other stuff.

It ran fine and I had no issues, but it was not lost on me that they very quickly pivoted to the 509.

Before the LE issues came to light several gun media / industry figures were conducting Todd Louis green style long term trials of FNS and all mysteriously ceased early and

95615

[ObiWan]

A few years ago I went through a combat medic course. I got a chance to fire the FNS9 (not owned by me) quite a bit. I did a few mag dumps at 7-10 yards. I was very impressed. All went POI/POA and were in a group smaller than the size of a coffee saucer. I tried to buy that gun. Offer turned down. I really liked that gun.