Guns for the elderly/arthritic/etc.

[Exurbankevin]

Tam's experience here (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2016/02/problematic.html) mimics my own brief time behind the counter at a shop down here in Naples, Florida. Retirees would come into the store looking for a self-defense gun, but because of arthritis and other infirmities that go along with get old, they could not pull back the slide on most service 9mm's, nor pull the trigger on a double-action revolver.

I'd either point them in the direction of an LC-380, a Sig P238, (which, because it was metal to soak up recoil and seemed to be easier to work than other similar-sized locked-breech guns), or else I'd recommend the PMR-30 for the same reasons. Tam's had good luck with the Sig P250 in .380, and a revolver with a hammer than can be cocked is another option, but what else would you recommend to the ever-growing segments of our population who can't defend their lives physically, and so are looking to buy a firearm to even up the odds?

[Tamara]

If someone would come up with an update of the Beretta 86 that wasn't priced like imported sin...

[CCT125US]

In several very particular situations, I have recommended the M&P .22C.

[Tamara]

In several very particular situations, I have recommended the M&P .22C.

Overheard at the Office: "If somebody came busting into your house in the middle of the night, I'd rather see you reaching for a .22 that you were confident in your ability to lay down some hate with, instead of nervously reaching for a .38 that frightened you almost as much as the bad guy does. Bad guys can smell that shit."

[Jim Watson]

A lot of competitors put lighter recoil springs on their guns.
A Glock 19 with a 13 lb recoil spring might serve. If for home defense, not to be carried concealed, make that a G17 with light spring, cocking handle and 22 shot ETS magazine.

A gunsmith once devised an easy operating gun for a retiree. He started with a 9mm SA 1911A1, smoothed it up, and put on a compensator.
Cock the hammer, rack the slide against a 10 lb spring, don't get kicked by a steel gun with compensator. You might could save the cost of the compensator.

Then there was the codger armed with a SAA. Advice was, when assaulted, cock hammer, aim, fire, repeat. If the threat should abate when the gun was cocked but not fired, just PUT IT DOWN. (You might have to tell a responding officer how to decock it, these days.)
Strength requirement is not great, extreme care in handling is.

These are not Senior SEALs, they are not likely going to be shooting a lot, either in practice or combat. If they can't get their business done in one gun load, they are probably sunk. I can envision a considerate spouse or offspring loading magazines and charging the gun for an Elder so all he has to do is aim and pull the trigger.

[JTQ]

As I'm getting older, I've begun to pay quite a bit of attention to these type of threads, and I agree with Tamara's comments (thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that post before) about folks always recommending a revolver. I don't understand that either. I'm not quite 60, but I don't care for the heavy trigger of a double action revolver either. A single action trigger is a lot easier for me to work.

I'm a long time 1911 shooter, and other than the weight, it's worked out pretty well so far. The small(ish) grip, and shorter reach, single action trigger is an advantage for smaller, weaker hands. Cocking the hammer first makes racking the slide much easier, and there is enough mass to the gun, and the .45ACP round, that limp wristing isn't usually a problem. I track my ability with the thumb safety though. Not the ability to remember it, I'd forget to pull the trigger before forgetting the thumb safety, but my thumb range of motion and strength to activate it. It hasn't been a problem yet, but I can see it possibly being one in the future.

I think neyti has commented about the HK LEM guns being a possible solution for those with arthritic or weaker hands, as the trigger is fairly light. I've seen a few posts from gun writer Denis Prysby on another forum on the subject, and if I remember correctly he's moved from large caliber, metal framed autos and revolvers to the M&P 40 as a result of illness/aging. I believe he expects to move to a 9mm version in the future. It is a full size gun that is easy to grip, is a relatively lightweight gun, with a relatively light trigger pull.

As I age, I do expect to move to a poly gun, mostly for the weight savings, but also due to simpler controls, and higher capacity. I often think if I get to the point where I can't rack the slide, I'd have some friend or relative load it up for me. I'd have 15+ rounds available before I'd have to manipulate the slide again.

[RevolverRob]

My father turned 71 last month. His hands are still strong, but his fingers are pretty arthritic, also his eyes weren't doing great (doing better now after cataract surgery). I bought him a full-size M&P 9 with a Deltapoint on top and an Apex Forward-Set-Sear trigger. This provides a platform he can shoot well, and the FSS helps by not having to work a long trigger to trip the gun.

My mother still hates the M&P, but liked the Deltapoint. So, dad and I hatched a plan for her. A Ruger 22/45 frame, with a Volquartsen lightweight competition upper, with a Docter III on top, and loaded with CCI Stingers.

Someone could make a killing if they offered a lightweight .22 with a red dot straight from the dealer.

-R

[David S.]

A couple observations from my wife who suffers from arthritis and weak finger strength.

-She feels very confident shooting any semi-auto in .22LR.
-Across the board, revolver triggers are too heavy.
-I don't think she's shot anything in .380.
-In 9mm she feels confident with a VP9, OK with the MP9 and XD, and hates the Glocks. DA/SA are out of the question. Metal guns are too heavy.
-I'd like to expose her to an LEM

[flyrodr]

I'm 66, don't have great eyes, but still have strong hands. Have shot since I was a kid. Familiar with lots of different platforms. That - - - unfamiliarity - - - is a significant hurdle. Under stress, seniors need something that goes bang without much thought, but not with a 2-lb trigger either. Simple manual of arms, able to be manipulated reasonably easily with weak hands, and able to be fired, perhaps repeatedly, without horribly jerking the trigger. Something that a senior, having little training and/or getting in little practice, can shoot and isn't afraid to shoot. With bad eyes (corrected, but still not able to focus as well as 50 years ago on front sight/target), I really like my RMR-equipped M&Pc. Not sure but what that price range might be prohibitive for many seniors, unaccustomed to typical gun prices. Thus, I'd agree with the M&P .22 compact. Fairly hand filling, which helps arthritics. Slide can be easily manipulated. Trigger is . . . OK. Major caliber stopping power doesn't help if it's simply blowing holes in the floor, wall or ceiling. Lacking prior experience, yeah, the .22 can be effective. Hits seem to always work better than misses.

[theJanitor]

This is timely for me.

I took my good buddy to the pistol range for the first time on Saturday. In december, he decided it was time to own a gun. He's retiring in a few months, and he wanted to tap into the collective experience of many of us "gun guys" at work. He's a very small guy with small hands. Luckily, he wants to be good at anything he does. He'll practice and get instruction, so sky's the limit for him, unless his weak hands hold him back.

Everyone gave him the same recommendation, a lightweight J-frame, especially in a configuration that lets you shoot 357's, "just in case you have to". He's dead set on one. So I took him to the range to try some guns out, ahead of his Handgun Safety Course. He wanted to shoot the 642 first, as the J-frame thing is still in his mind, but I have him a custom Colt Pocketlite in 380 first. His first five shots went into five inches at 6 yards and had him feeling pretty good about the rest of the afternoon. Then he performed decently with the G43. Then I brought out a 642, and after one shot, he turned to me and said, "NO". Now he's wondering why everyone had been telling him to get a lightweight revolver. And now he knows why there's a Captains of Crush 2.0 on my desk.

I think he'll end up with a 380. Can anyone recommend a 380 semi platform for him?

[Cheap Shot]

Very important, and timely thread that I'll be following closely for more than one family member.

Thanks to OP for starting and everyone else contributing.

[Malamute]

... Then I brought out a 642, and after one shot, he turned to me and said, "NO". I think he'll end up with a 380.... Can anyone recommend a 380 semi platform for him?

Reading this thread, I was thinking the g-42 was probably a better choice than the g-43.

I recall some of the people here discussing them but don't recall all the conclusions. How are the other 380s for ease of use?

A few years ago I had the brilliant thought of getting a Smith K-32 for my geezerhood. I was a couple years too late, they were discovered by collectors. So far still able to work the actions of everything, even with other problems.

[RevolverRob]

I think he'll end up with a 380. Can anyone recommend a 380 semi platform for him?

Sig P238?

Anyone have any trigger time under the Sig P250-22? That's an interesting conversion. The "DAO" trigger of the P250 is fairly light ~6.5 pounds, but long enough to prevent accidental/unintentional discharges. Rear sight could be drifted out and one of Sig's reflex optics installed, easily...Hmm...that's compelling.

-Rob

[theJanitor]

The Sig's are now appealing to him, as he likes the idea of a safety. Also, since he doesn't have alot of reach with his short fingers, the SA trigger might serve him well.

Are they reliable? He's going to be spending the near future learning how to shoot. He can't be conducting a 2000rd reliability test at the same time.

[Nephrology]

I would also opt for a G42 for this sort of individual. Still a caliber that means something but definitely one of the nicest centerfire semi-auto's I've ever shot.

I would definitely NOT opt for pretty much any DA revolver, despite how often they get pitched to this demographic. Even with a nice heavy L Frame or GP100 with action work, you're still looking at a minimum 8-9lb DA trigger. Not something for those with diminished strength and joint function...

[Drang]

Sig P238?

Anyone have any trigger time under the Sig P250-22? That's an interesting conversion. The "DAO" trigger of the P250 is fairly light ~6.5 pounds, but long enough to prevent accidental/unintentional discharges. Rear sight could be drifted out and one of Sig's reflex optics installed, easily...Hmm...that's compelling.

-Rob

Yes, someone does: View From The Porch (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/), although naturally I cannot now find the SIG P/3/2/250 .22 posts...

[Clay]

Timely thread, and I certainly don't have the answer. The closest I've come is the Walther CCP. We sell a bunch of them, and they seem to do alright. One of the big problems is the PIA disassembly.

[Drang]

If someone would come up with an update of the Beretta 86 that wasn't priced like imported sin...

Or a Tomcat in a caliber more suitable for self-defense. (Although, better a .32 you can shoot than a 9mm of whatever length you can't.)

[Holmes375]

....Thus, I'd agree with the M&P .22 compact. Fairly hand filling, which helps arthritics....

This is an important aspect overlooked by those not afflicted with arthritis. Look at some of the kitchen implements designed to help arthritic seniors. Larger handles ergonomically designed to fill the hand.

I'm in to my 6th decade and a seasoned long time shooter. I recently stepped away from the small single stack sub-compacts after doing rather extensive testing of my performance with them compared to their larger double stack compact brethren. The clock and the paper don't lie. My draw, time to first shot and follow up work were all much better with the compact weapons. Much of this due to them being easier to manipulate and control under recoil. The more hand filling grip was simply easy to acquire and hang on to.

I don't have severe arthritis but the sub-compacts would sometimes leaves my hands aching a bit after extended sessions. This will only become more of an issue with time. For myself, I've moved away from the 45 caliber sub-compacts to a 9mm M&P9c with standard pressure HST ammo. This seems to be the smallest service caliber weapon I can shoot to the standard I require for myself as armed citizen.

I'm hoping to add an RMR this summer as my eyes seem to be aging as fast as my hands ;)

And I'm now of the opinion that the inventor of magazine loaders should be knighted :)

[Malamute]

...And I'm now of the opinion that the inventor of magazine loaders should be knighted :)

I thought the stoopid magazine loader that came with the glock was, well, stoopid. Until I was one handed/armed after surgery. Wonderful little gadget.

[JonInWA]

The HK VP9, especially with it's slide charging handles make racking the slide quite a bit easier than is normally the case for a semi-automatic pistol. Another potential consideration would be a Walther P5; although they're out of production, and expensive (and they never were inexpensive), they are still available from Earl's (see www.carlwalther.com); their dual receiver-mounted recoil springs make for a lighter slide reciprocation, and the ergos and sights are decent. Definitely an elder hipster gun, though.

Best, Jon

[Clay]

The HK VP9, especially with it's slide charging handles make racking the slide quite a bit easier than is normally the case for a semi-automatic pistol. Another potential consideration would be a Walther P5; although they're out of production, and expensive (and they never were inexpensive), they are still available from Earl's (see www.carlwalther.com); their dual receiver-mounted recoil springs make for a lighter slide reciprocation, and the ergos and sights are decent. Definitely an elder hipster gun, though.

Best, Jon

Good points, and I have recommended the VP9 for this reason, but most people balk at the price. $300-$400 before tax is the sweet spot for most pistol buyers I see. The Canik TP9SA is a pretty good option for some folks. It's easy to rack the slide, and the trigger is great. It's just a bit large for a few people's needs.

[Exurbankevin]

Can anyone recommend a 380 semi platform for him?

Ruger LC-380, Tam's suggestion of the PTwoFiddy, or the Taurus TCP*. The Sig P238 was also very popular because it was easy to rack and metal, which sucked up some of the recoil compared to polymer pocket .380s. I've also heard good anecdotes about the Walther CCP being easy to rack because of it's gas-delayed action, but I haven't really checked it out that much.

* Note: I am acknowledging the TCP's existence, not making a recommendation.

[Hauptmann]

I have to admit that Tamara really got me thinking about the Grandma Gun concept.

Even though the .38spl and 9mm are the optimal caliber choices, the guns that they are chambered in are either too harsh in recoil, or their trigger pull is too strong. After fiddling around with a number of different makes and calibers really the .380acp is the upper limit of the caliber selection. Even a Ruger LCP in .380acp is a handful, and really you need a compact sized pistol in order to tame the .380 recoil enough. I got to shoot a Glock G25 .380 at a LE convention in the late 1990s, and that pistol was a really nice shooter with mild recoil. At the time I considered it a toy given my feelings on the .380acp and ammo development at the time(If you shot anything less than a .40S&W, you were a dead man). Now days, I can see that pistol being the perfect gun to fill this niche.

[CCT125US]

* Note: I am acknowledging the TCP's existence, not making a recommendation.

Ah yes, the only gun that has spontaneously disassembled in a students hand. So much suck and fail engineered into a tiny package.

[idahojess]

I've had an injured right hand and arm since birth, and the semi-auto recoil spring issue (as well as grip) has always been an issue for me. I'm 40 now, and I imagine these factors will become more of an issue as I get older-- that's fine, beats the alternative.
I can work the slides on my Glock 19 and M&P compact okay, (grip tape on both) but I don't like to. I actually developed some shoulder and bicep issues in 2014 that I'm pretty sure were caused, in part, by working slides too much. I've since tried to mitigate the amount I'm working slides, including switching hands to load a round, and loading guns from slide lock at the range.
The progressive springs in the smaller guns are really difficult. I include the Glock 42 in this group, for me. I'll pick up a Shield at the shop, work the slide, and put it down. (I lift weights and do other exercises, but if you don't have grip strength, and can't gain it, you don't have it.)
I did pick up a Sig 290 RS 380 last fall as a test gun for me and potentially for my mom. The recoil spring feels like a .22 in that gun, but it does seem to be ammo sensitive, with failures to feed, and I can't recommend it. The DAO trigger is not good either. My concern with a .22 auto for defense is that they can be kind of jammy. 22 revolvers seem to have really bad trigger pulls.
The only thing I think this all proves is that somebody with a grip issue really needs to try stuff out if possible. Sometimes the TDA guns can actually be easier to rack. One of the reasons a P-series Ruger was my first handgun (2001?) was that I could easily rack the slide on it.

[Tamara]

I have to admit that Tamara really got me thinking about the Grandma Gun concept.

Even though the .38spl and 9mm are the optimal caliber choices, the guns that they are chambered in are either too harsh in recoil, or their trigger pull is too strong. After fiddling around with a number of different makes and calibers really the .380acp is the upper limit of the caliber selection. Even a Ruger LCP in .380acp is a handful, and really you need a compact sized pistol in order to tame the .380 recoil enough. I got to shoot a Glock G25 .380 at a LE convention in the late 1990s, and that pistol was a really nice shooter with mild recoil. At the time I considered it a toy given my feelings on the .380acp and ammo development at the time(If you shot anything less than a .40S&W, you were a dead man). Now days, I can see that pistol being the perfect gun to fill this niche.

Seriously, I wish the P250C .380 weren't such a unicorn at the distributor level, because I could have sold a bunch of those things just from letting folks handle my T&E gun. (Which has also, I'll note, eaten more than a case of ammo thus far with no cleaning or lubing and no problems other than one failure to go completely into battery that was remedied with just the "Tap" portion of "Tap Rack Bang".)

[Malamute]

...My concern with a .22 auto for defense is that they can be kind of jammy...


The Ruger standard type 22 auto pistols have always been pretty good about function. They make slide rackers for them also. I think if I wasn't able to handle or operate larger caliber guns, and the size wasn't a problem, that's the direction I'd lean.

[jh9]

The Ruger standard type 22 auto pistols have always been pretty good about function. They make slide rackers for them also. I think if I wasn't able to handle or operate larger caliber guns, and the size wasn't a problem, that's the direction I'd lean.

If the last few steel matches I shot is any reflection of the larger world, the number of .22 pistols that actually work is probably fewer in number than Chinese Pandas. Whether it's the gun or the crappy .22 ammo available I can't say. But I can say it's common to see just about every one misbehaving at some point in the day. It's noticeable enough that I actively squad late so I can pick the one with the fewest rimfire guns.


Seriously, I wish the P250C .380 weren't such a unicorn at the distributor level, because I could have sold a bunch of those things just from letting folks handle my T&E gun. (Which has also, I'll note, eaten more than a case of ammo thus far with no cleaning or lubing and no problems other than one failure to go completely into battery that was remedied with just the "Tap" portion of "Tap Rack Bang".)

My 250 had the best "non gun person" trigger imaginable. It was light, smooth and long enough to obviate problems light and smooth would otherwise have. I can only imagine how much it doesn't recoil in .380.

As is, I love my G42 with the Ghost connector. With mild ball ammo it feels like a .22. It has some pep when shooting Gold Dots, but still manageable.

[Malamute]

If the last few steel matches I shot is any reflection of the larger world, the number of .22 pistols that actually work is probably fewer in number than Chinese Pandas. Whether it's the gun or the crappy .22 ammo available I can't say...

Could be ammo, but I don't know, or have recent experience with the guns. I had several of the Ruger autos in the 70s and 80s, the ones I had ran quite well.

[peterb]

I think that for this pool of shooters a laser makes a lot of sense, but I understand that a set of lasergrips would eat up half of their budget. Old eyes and minimal training is not a recipe for success with factory sights.

[Tamara]

A clean sheet of paper gun marketed to his demographic, with a tip-up barrel and a built-in laser, would probably sell like a mofo if it could be brought to market for less than five or five-and-a-half bills, street.

[RevolverRob]

A clean sheet of paper gun marketed to his demographic, with a tip-up barrel and a built-in laser, would probably sell like a mofo if it could be brought to market for less than five or five-and-a-half bills, street.

But...you still want it to work, right? And it can't have no "MIM or polymer Because that's junk!"

On a more serious note the gun my grandmother preferred was a PPK in .25 ACP. I was never quite sure where my grandfather dug that one up - But it solved all of the major problems inherent in guns of this design. The .25 was easier to rack than the .32 and certainly the .380 guns. Virtually no recoil, big enough to handle well, and most importantly - centerfire reliable. The only downside was the long, heavy, double-action trigger pull. Which my grandfather solved by polishing everything. It worked for the purpose, for sure.

___

If I were going to design an "old person" gun from the ground up. I would design...well hell...I'd design the Kel-Tec PMR30...only I'd make sure it worked first. I mean seriously...double-stack but still thin .22 Magnum, cut from the factory for a red-dot optic, accessory rail to mount a laser/light, big fiber optic sights you can see from the International Space Station, fairly light trigger, gun weighs ~14 ounces unloaded. .22 Mag solves most of the problems inherent in rimfire cartridges (that is..reliability and enough power to cycle an action).

-Rob

[Exurbankevin]

If I were going to design an "old person" gun from the ground up. I would design...well hell...I'd design the Kel-Tec PMR30.

I absolutely adore that gun. So much fun to shoot, (it's like a little happy dog that just loves to run and make noise and make you laugh) and you're right, it's perfect for this demographic.

[Exurbankevin]

A clean sheet of paper gun marketed to his demographic, with a tip-up barrel and a built-in laser, would probably sell like a mofo if it could be brought to market for less than five or five-and-a-half bills, street.


So essentially, what we're looking for is a larger Taurus Curve which doesn't suck.

I can dig it.

[flyrodr]

Whenever possible, first-time senior gun buyers should be strongly encouraged to try some different models at a rental range. And to try irons vs. laser. This will also give them the opportunity to determine if they can cycle the gun, understand all the controls, handle the recoil, etc. And, point them to a course for new gun owners. The NRA has plenty. First, though, I'd think the buyer ought to be asked if the gun is solely for in-house defense, or if it's to be a carry gun. If the latter, make sure they understand they'll need a concealed carry permit, and understand the conditions. And, if the person clearly lacks the commitment to become proficient, perhaps suggesting they get a can of OC is a better option. Some might be limited because of budget constraints, but others might happily walk out with a new laser-equipped handgun and a can of OC.

[ReverendMeat]

#1 is the SIG P238. When I'd watch folks struggle manipulating one pistol after the next, it was always nice to hand them the P238. I don't recall anybody not being able to rack one, easy sale. The Walther PK380 as well, though I wish they'd get a "M2" design revision as well. There's so many stupid things about that gun, I can't believe it ever left the drawing board like that. In revolvers, the Ruger LCRs are a little more user friendly than the J-frames. Triggers are easier to manage and the stock grips are more comfortable.

Also one that may be worth looking at (but I don't have any real experience with) are the new Browning .380 1911s. SO. CUTE.

[45dotACP]

Is 9mm 1911 off the table? Nice light recoil springs, nice light recoil. A threaded barrel would accept a KKM compensator if more recoil reduction were needed, the trigger is stupid easy to shoot and a CTC laser grip could be added...

Then again, I'd also suggest a comped AR15 for around the house...it doesn't get much easier to shoot than a 5.56 gas gun with an optic.

[Hauptmann]

Is 9mm 1911 off the table? Nice light recoil springs, nice light recoil. A threaded barrel would accept a KKM compensator if more recoil reduction were needed, the trigger is stupid easy to shoot and a CTC laser grip could be added...

Then again, I'd also suggest a comped AR15 for around the house...it doesn't get much easier to shoot than a 5.56 gas gun with an optic.

Cost. Most of the older and infirm are on fixed incomes, and are probably not going to be able to buy a thousand dollar gun let alone optics. Ammo cost would be a serious consideration too. Realistically, $500 for a single gun package is probably the upper limit of most in this demographic. When it comes to long guns, I think we are talking more like a Ruger 10-22 with a 25rd magazine if we are going the long gun route. I have seen some fine defensive work performed with .22lr pistols and rifles against multiple assailants in a number of civilian shootings over the years. They are just so easy to shoot well with their minimal recoil and blast.

[mtnbkr]

Could be ammo, but I don't know, or have recent experience with the guns. I had several of the Ruger autos in the 70s and 80s, the ones I had ran quite well.

I recently bought a NIB 22/45 Lite. On the first trip to the range, where me and Thing 1 ran a bit more than 100 rounds through it, we had one jam that I'm confident was the ammo and not the gun. It was crappy truncated cone 22lr that was so dirty, it caused the cylinder of my K22 to bind after 20 shots, give or take.

Chris

[LSP972]

[QUOTE=ReverendMeat;405501 In revolvers, the Ruger LCRs are a little more user friendly than the J-frames. Triggers are easier to manage and the stock grips are more comfortable.

[/QUOTE]

Ah... that is entirely subjective. And that supposedly wonderful trigger is extremely susceptible to short-stroking. Sure, you can short-stroke a J frame too; but you simply release the trigger and start over. The LCR has been known to vapor-lock, requiring one to fiddle with the trigger a bit to get it to return.

Yes, I am heavily biased toward the J frame. But truth is truth. Now that I have one in hand and have been working with it a bit, I'm even less impressed with the LCR than I was when I first vetted it for my mother's use. Oh, its a decent-enough gun. And the rubber stocks it comes with are indeed better than issue J frame stocks... if you have a larger hand. I have a small hand, and find those stocks cramp me a bit.

But to say that the LCR trigger is "more manageable"... well, sorry, but I find that to be absolutely not the case.

.

[Exurbankevin]

Whenever possible, first-time senior gun buyers should be strongly encouraged to try some different models at a rental range.

Unless that range has nothing but 19's, XD's, 1911's, etc to try out. Niche guns like the P238 and LC-380 tend to not show up at rental counters because of incentives like the range discount programs that all the major manufacturers offer. Plus there's the fact that if Range X knows they can rent 3 Glock 17's an hour, but one LC-380 a week, they'll push the Glock.

Guns for the elderly are a niche market, but it's a growing one.

[kehowell]

As I'm getting older, I've begun to pay quite a bit of attention to these type of threads, and I agree with Tamara's comments (thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that post before) about folks always recommending a revolver. I don't understand that either. I'm not quite 60, but I don't care for the heavy trigger of a double action revolver either. A single action trigger is a lot easier for me to work.

I'm a long time 1911 shooter, and other than the weight, it's worked out pretty well so far. The small(ish) grip, and shorter reach, single action trigger is an advantage for smaller, weaker hands. Cocking the hammer first makes racking the slide much easier, and there is enough mass to the gun, and the .45ACP round, that limp wristing isn't usually a problem. I track my ability with the thumb safety though. Not the ability to remember it, I'd forget to pull the trigger before forgetting the thumb safety, but my thumb range of motion and strength to activate it. It hasn't been a problem yet, but I can see it possibly being one in the future.

I think neyti has commented about the HK LEM guns being a possible solution for those with arthritic or weaker hands, as the trigger is fairly light. I've seen a few posts from gun writer Denis Prysby on another forum on the subject, and if I remember correctly he's moved from large caliber, metal framed autos and revolvers to the M&P 40 as a result of illness/aging. I believe he expects to move to a 9mm version in the future. It is a full size gun that is easy to grip, is a relatively lightweight gun, with a relatively light trigger pull.

As I age, I do expect to move to a poly gun, mostly for the weight savings, but also due to simpler controls, and higher capacity. I often think if I get to the point where I can't rack the slide, I'd have some friend or relative load it up for me. I'd have 15+ rounds available before I'd have to manipulate the slide again.

I am over 65 and never picked up a pistol before this past January. I followed the advice given on this site and got the H&K P2000 LEM. I do have arthritis and both wrists have been operated on but I can still handle the mechanics of this pistol. If you have not done so, follow the threads on my posting:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18784-So-new-to-owning-a-weapon-it-is-scary.

The information I was given was spot on.

[alohadoug]

Tam's blogpost got Michael Bane talking about it on his latest podcast (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-457-hand-strength-and-handguns/36601/).

I've been following this thread (and several others) for future reference. I've got ligament damage in my thumbs (De Quervain's tenosynovitis) so I know these situations are in my future. Thanks for the information.

Aloha

[JTQ]

Niche guns like the P238 and LC-380 ...
I don't know if they're niche guns, but they are little guns. The OP somewhat touched on this, that some of the typical recommendations for the old are similar to recommendations you'll see for women or the small statured. There is a lot of "get the little gun" stuff, because people are small or weak. Little guns are not an advantage.

I don't know know about you, but I don't want to shoot a little gun. They are hard to shoot. Something like a small duty size handgun like a G19 or P2000 would be a whole lot easier to shoot. If you've got it as a home defense gun, there is practically no reason not to go for the full size gun, as long as it fits your hand. I understand a 1911 may be heavier than some may want, but a G17 or M&P9 is pretty light and a whole lot easier to shoot than a pocket pistol.

[StraitR]

Even if we're talking about the degradation of strength and dexterity, I still think the answer is found in software.

I simply don't like recommending SA pistols to people that want to put something in their nightstand drawer, never to see it again until they need it, regardless of age, sex, and physical ability. Obviously, individuals that have found there way here to P-F possess a higher level of drive and commitment than that, regardless of age, sex, and physical ability. Point is, SA's are more complex, requiring more skill, more maintenance, and subsequently more devotion on the part of the end user. If you have it, great, pick what you like that works within your physical means and drive on. If you don't, then address physical means but stay with simplicity.

IMO/E, the only downside to a revolver is trigger weight, which can be addressed. So, a good model 60 or SP-101 with a $50-75 trip to a competent gunsmith for trigger work is perfect for a novice user with no desire to physically/mentally learn and maintain a pistol on a basic level.

The trigger on my no-lock 638 was done by a S&W master gunsmith when he happened to be at my local store for a large promotion. My wife's grandmother has terrible Osteoarthritis and knuckles like a T-rex, but she can work the 7 pound trigger on my J-frame like a champ. She can't do it all day, but the typical scenario that Granny would be inclined to empty her J-frame in short order is a sprint, not a marathon.

Much like everything else gun and self-defense related, it's a personal choice worthy of careful consideration.

ETA: I think a good way to measure commitment is by finding out if self-defense is viewed as an interest or necessity.

[tanner]

I think a 1911 SA only type gun could work great as a house gun.

Leave it in the quick access safe unloaded with the slide locked back. Trouble knocks? Insert mag, hit slide stop and she is ready to go. Proceed to your safe spot.

Either you shoot the bad guy or wait for the cavalry to arrive. Then set the gun down.

Easy peasy.

[ReverendMeat]

But to say that the LCR trigger is "more manageable"... well, sorry, but I find that to be absolutely not the case.


I share your opinion on the LCR but I wasn't talking about myself and my preferences. I say "more manageable" because I've seen people who needed both index fingers to pull the trigger on a stock J-frame be able to pull the trigger on an LCR with just one. This isn't a subjective opinion, just an observation.

[theJanitor]

My buddy's hands/fingers are so small, he can barely reach the trigger on a G19, much less pull it straight back. He knows we're looking for the biggest (not largest caliber) gun he can run. And his bedroom gun might end up being a rifle. The last hurdle is trying to find a small gun in a rental range.

he could grip, and run my Alpha Precision Colt Pocketlite .380 pretty well. The single action variant might be just right.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5766/23261879685_d78fc07df4_z.jpg

[Drang]

For a long gun for the less-than-ideal-physical-specimen*, does anyone have experience with the Mossberg International SA-20? (http://www.mossberg.com/product/mossberg-international-sa-20-railed-75778/)


*Which, I hasten to add, is intended to include the infirm, the short, the overweight, as well as the simply out of shape. Me, I'm not short...

[BN]

Has anybody had any experience with the Ruger Charger? http://www.ruger.com/products/22Charger/specSheets/4923.html

[LSP972]

I share your opinion on the LCR but I wasn't talking about myself and my preferences. I say "more manageable" because I've seen people who needed both index fingers to pull the trigger on a stock J-frame be able to pull the trigger on an LCR with just one. This isn't a subjective opinion, just an observation.


Fair enough.

.

[StraitR]

Has anybody had any experience with the Ruger Charger? http://www.ruger.com/products/22Charger/specSheets/4923.html

Bill,

I have a friend with one, but I don't think I've ever seen him shoot it. That said, they should have standard 10/22 reliability since barrel and stock length are irrelevant to the design.

ETA: If one was going with a rimfire pistol, that's a great suggestion based on it's 52 year old proven track record. The 25 round magazines are a bonus as well. Sprinkle in some Mini-Mags or Stingers.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Speaking of 22LR - while as mentioned I have adequate strength, I have in repetoire a Buckmark and Ruger SS Bearcat. The Buckmark has been reliable, racking it is easy and the trigger is light. Recoil is non-existent and the soft grip is comfortable. It has a nice fiber optic front sight. The Bearcat is single action of course but easy to cock and shoot.

Certainly, I know all the Internet arguments about 22s and stopping power. I don't buy the guys who think they will shoot a stream of 22LR into the head of moving targets or the folks who think that the average bad guy will stride through a stream of 22s to get to you.

I do think that having a gun is a deterrent in the context of home defense and being shot will probably turn a bad guy around. Elmer Keith said a 22 is small until it is pointed at you.

If I got to the point that I needed them, I would keep them hot and ready to go.

The Buckmark is fun to shoot at steel matches. I shot it, Outlaw, at IDPA once. I could use it. Reloads are a touch slow given the narrow magazine profile.

I don't have experience with the 22s that are similar in appearance to service guns. That might work but it is an empirical question.

I prefer a person to shoot a person as compared to waving a frying pan or golf club.

[Tamara]

Cost. Most of the older and infirm are on fixed incomes, and are probably not going to be able to buy a thousand dollar gun let alone optics. Ammo cost would be a serious consideration too. Realistically, $500 for a single gun package is probably the upper limit of most in this demographic. When it comes to long guns, I think we are talking more like a Ruger 10-22 with a 25rd magazine if we are going the long gun route. I have seen some fine defensive work performed with .22lr pistols and rifles against multiple assailants in a number of civilian shootings over the years. They are just so easy to shoot well with their minimal recoil and blast.

Agree wholeheartedly with this post.

It's also worth remembering that very few of these folks are going to become pistol-forum.com members. I usually find a pretty good willingness to take the store's one-on-one 2-hour basic "Intro to Handgun" course, and then you see them once a month or less. This usually isn't a hobby implement they're buying, like a golf club or a 10-speed, but a piece of emergency gear like a fire extinguisher or cigarette-lighter-powered tire pump.

[David S.]

This usually isn't a hobby implement they're buying, like a golf club or a 10-speed, but a piece of emergency gear like a fire extinguisher or cigarette-lighter-powered tire pump.

I've been trying to wrap my mind around a couple friends unwillingness to train with their shiny new gat. Somehow this analogy just clicked with me and put it all in perspective.

Thanks as always for your wit.

[StraitR]

A great Ballistic Radio episode with Dr. Sherman House on the validity of 22lr for HD.


The .22 Caliber Rifle For Home Defense? (Podcast – Season 2, Ballistic Radio Episode 57 – April 13th, 2014) (http://ballisticradio.com/2014/04/14/podcast-season-2-ballistic-radio-episode-57-april-13th-2014/)

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't know if they're niche guns, but they are little guns. The OP somewhat touched on this, that some of the typical recommendations for the old are similar to recommendations you'll see for women or the small statured. There is a lot of "get the little gun" stuff, because people are small or weak. Little guns are not an advantage.

I don't know know about you, but I don't want to shoot a little gun. They are hard to shoot. Something like a small duty size handgun like a G19 or P2000 would be a whole lot easier to shoot. If you've got it as a home defense gun, there is practically no reason not to go for the full size gun, as long as it fits your hand. I understand a 1911 may be heavier than some may want, but a G17 or M&P9 is pretty light and a whole lot easier to shoot than a pocket pistol.

The LC380 is not exaclty little, for a .380, especially compared to the LCP and such, and since the LC380 was kind of designed from the get-go for this low recoil/easy to handle role.

[Chuck Haggard]

A great Ballistic Radio episode with Dr. Sherman House on the validity of 22lr for HD.


The .22 Caliber Rifle For Home Defense? (Podcast – Season 2, Ballistic Radio Episode 57 – April 13th, 2014) (http://ballisticradio.com/2014/04/14/podcast-season-2-ballistic-radio-episode-57-april-13th-2014/)

Doc Sherm, Claude and I have talked about this at length.

I note that every single .22 rifle shooting I've ever worked has been a homicide. .22 rifles are very easy to shoot very well under stress, and .22lr tends to penetrate more than deeply enough to get the job done when center hits are made.

[Tamara]

Doc Sherm, Claude and I have talked about this at length.

I note that every single .22 rifle shooting I've ever worked has been a homicide. .22 rifles are very easy to shoot very well under stress, and .22lr tends to penetrate more than deeply enough to get the job done when center hits are made.

Like I've mentioned to you before, if the distance is much over 15-20 yards, I'll take a reliable .22LR autoloading rifle over pretty much any centerfire pistol ever made.

[Hauptmann]

Doc Sherm, Claude and I have talked about this at length.

I note that every single .22 rifle shooting I've ever worked has been a homicide. .22 rifles are very easy to shoot very well under stress, and .22lr tends to penetrate more than deeply enough to get the job done when center hits are made.

That or full auto. In Gary Jone's book he talks about how the Fort Lauderdale anti-robery squad used American 100 .22lr machine guns and they were extremely effective, even through car windshields. The lack of recoil and muzzle blast made them essentially like operating a spray nozzle on a water hose, and you could paint your canvas.

[Clay]

The problem with .22 IMHO is availability of ammunition. Also .22's can be a bit picky as to ammo type, while today's consumer doesn't have many choices available in stores. This makes it hard to recommend.

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[Glenn E. Meyer]

Around here, it is not so bad. You can get a hundred or so rounds pretty easily. Also, our target audience probably isn't going to shoot much. Yes, they should but ...

About 10/22s - I have a synthetic stock stainless one. I put a rail and slings on it with a RDS. Got a bunch of the higher cap mags. I wouldn't sneeze at it.

However, for the target audience and long guns - I dunno. In a house situation, you have to manipulate phones and light switches. Holding the gun up for a bit of time might be a problem. Good to have in the safe room when you are hunkered down but for the fast pickup and getting on the phone, have a handgun also.

[RevolverRob]

The problem with .22 IMHO is availability of ammunition. Also .22's can be a bit picky as to ammo type, while today's consumer doesn't have many choices available in stores. This makes it hard to recommend.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

While I agree on the one end, that ammunition availability is important - On the other end, I see 52-brands in stock at Midway USA right now. Any of the 40-grain standard/high velocity lead round-noses should be in essence 100% in virtually everything out there. Eley Target, RWS Rifle Match, etc. - One thing to bear in mind re: .22 rimfire - MATCH AMMUNITION IS IMPORTANT FOR RELIABILITY.

-R

[Clay]

True, but boy it disappears quick when the Dems start running their mouths, or when some nut shoots up a school.

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[StraitR]

While I agree on the one end, that ammunition availability is important - On the other end, I see 52-brands in stock at Midway USA right now. Any of the 40-grain standard/high velocity lead round-noses should be in essence 100% in virtually everything out there. Eley Target, RWS Rifle Match, etc. - One thing to bear in mind re: .22 rimfire - MATCH AMMUNITION IS IMPORTANT FOR RELIABILITY.

-R

I think one of the biggest factors of 22 ammo reliability is due to packaging. Typical 22lr match ammo packaging prevents the damage often found in bulk packs, especially towards the bottom of the pack, which is loose/wobbly bullets in the casing from beating each other up.

This is why I like the CCI 50 round pack varieties, such as their Standard Velocity or Mini-Mags.

[RevolverRob]

I think one of the biggest factors of 22 ammo reliability is due to packaging. Typical 22lr match ammo packaging prevents the damage often found in bulk packs, especially towards the bottom of the pack, which is loose/wobbly bullets in the casing from beating each other up.

This is why I like the CCI 50 round pack varieties, such as their Standard Velocity or Mini-Mags.

Absolutely agree. For "defensive" use - I'd go CCI Stinger, Mini-Mags, Green Tag, Standard Velocity in that order of preference. Then RWS/Eley/Aguila/Lapua 40-grain solid standard or high-velocity Match ammo.

For those needing/buying bulk - the best I've found is bulk bricks of Federal Champion, 36-grain solids, packed in boxes of 50, properly, not thrown in some jumbled up bulk pack. This is the most reliable/most accurate bulk ammunition I have found. Fortunately, back when I worked slinging guns across the glass, I bought about 20 bricks of it. I almost never shoot .22, I just figured to never run low...ever. Glad I did, now.

I stopped buying Remington ammunition, period - After the last box of 525 Golden Bullets I bought. Half the box didn't go bang in my Remington Nylon 66. A Nylon 66!!! That's a gun that could shoot rocks if you put propellant on them.

-Rob

[LSP972]

Absolutely agree. For "defensive" use - I'd go CCI ... Green Tag, Standard Velocity in that order of preference.

You do know that Green Tag is nothing more than Standard Velocity with a SD of less than 10? IOW, with Green Tag you're paying large for an extra bit of uniformity that your basic .22 firearm cannot utilize?

When a lot # of Standard Velocity is finished, they chronograph random rounds of it; if the standard deviation is below 10, it gets Green Tag labels.

.

[coldcase1984]

Easy shooting and reliable .22s are the answer!

If we're talking a carry gun: Ruger 22/45 Lite with a VQ trigger group. CCI Velocitors.

House gun: Ruger Charger (a superlite chassis would be great, becuz 50 oz. might be a bit much for some seniors) with a CT laser on the rail or 10/22 Compact (or SBRed one like I'm putting together for my daughter on the trust) with light/laser and XS Big Dot sights. Drop crisp aftermarket trigger group in any of them and use BX15 mags full of CCI Velocitors.

To tell the truth, I think the world would have more cops still walking around if they were issued an SBR 10/22 instead of a handgun.

I've already got the Form 1 going and the receiver engraved for one I'm building. The Mother-in-Law/NDP Gun that can save lives in 40-grain doubles accurately...

[Tamara]

When a lot # of Standard Velocity is finished, they chronograph random rounds of it; if the standard deviation is below 10, it gets Green Tag labels.

.

I did not know that. Huh. :)

[Clay]

I fired a single mag through a customer's Glock 43, so I have basically no trigger time on these things. Are they harder to rack than a S&W Shield? (I don't think I'm a good judge of these things, being male and in relatively good shape.) A lady friend is looking at ordering one and I don't know of anyone local with one to borrow. She can run a Shield OK, but would like to buy a Glock.

[CCT125US]

Has anybody had any experience with the Ruger Charger? http://www.ruger.com/products/22Charger/specSheets/4923.html

I've got a 10/22 Charger takedown with Bushnell TRS25. It is stupid easy to shoot well.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As far as 22 availability, the Bass Pro near home had stacks of CCI 22 LR HP mini-mags and other cheaper stuff.

[Tamara]

I fired a single mag through a customer's Glock 43, so I have basically no trigger time on these things. Are they harder to rack than a S&W Shield?

Pretty much the same.

[Jared]

Tam,

An acquaintance of mine recently went through something similar with his wife. I think she's in her 50's and she hated trying to rack his G43. They went to a shop, explained the situation, and wound up with a Walther PK380 (IIRC). I have absolutely zero experience with this gun, and my experience with the Walther P22 was not positive, but they seem to be happy with the little 380. I wouldn't classify them as serious users, but I know they do shoot more than a lot of gun owners and have hit a couple local classes.

Just an idea, this thread reminded me of that conversation from about 6 months ago.

[Rich@CCC]

I'm not sure why, but the Walther CCP never seems to get mentioned in these types of discussions.

I've never handled one, but on paper it seems to be the perfect semi auto pistol for those with arthritis or week hands.

9mm Para, Under $500.00 MSRP, mid sized, light recoil spring(easy slide operation) and supposedly low felt recoil due to the delayed blow back operation.

Tam mentioned that she had some trigger time with one in another discussion. Is there any reason why this would not be a reasonable consideration?

[Tamara]

Tam mentioned that she had some trigger time with one in another discussion. Is there any reason why this would not be a reasonable consideration?

I didn't have any trouble out of either of the T&E guns I had. For serious shooters, they have junky triggers about which not much can be done, and a design and construction that is obviously from Arnsberg rather than Ulm. The typical p-f.com member would be well advised to save the extra couple shekels to buy the PPS.

For the sort of shooter in the OP, though, who has physical issues and isn't likely to shoot the wheels off the gun? It's a much better choice than the Shield/43/PPS/Nano.

[ffhounddog]

I like my Kimber Aegis ultra compact. 9mm and if that person knows 1911s that would work.

I am up to 3500 problem free rounds through it and I only carry Hornaday Tap 124 grain. Its got to be used and it functions 100%.

[Clay]

I didn't have any trouble out of either of the T&E guns I had. For serious shooters, they have junky triggers about which not much can be done, and a design and construction that is obviously from Arnsberg rather than Ulm. The typical p-f.com member would be well advised to save the extra couple shekels to buy the PPS.

For the sort of shooter in the OP, though, who has physical issues and isn't likely to shoot the wheels off the gun? It's a much better choice than the Shield/43/PPS/Nano.

I couldn't agree more. We sell a lot of CCP's at my range, but I don't care for them. The trigger and disassembly are the biggest problems.

[Tamara]

I am up to 3500 problem free rounds through it and I only carry Hornaday Tap 124 grain. Its got to be used and it functions 100%.

While Kimber's 4" Pros and 5" Customs work better than the gunternet generally gives them credit for (external extractor guns excepted, of course) the 3" Ultras are...well, let's say that your gun is a statistical anomaly. :(

[Buckshot]

That or full auto. In Gary Jone's book he talks about how the Fort Lauderdale anti-robery squad used American 100 .22lr machine guns and they were extremely effective, even through car windshields. The lack of recoil and muzzle blast made them essentially like operating a spray nozzle on a water hose, and you could paint your canvas.

What book is that? - I'd like to check it out.

[Drang]

What book is that? - I'd like to check it out.

Badge 149: Shots Fired! (http://www.amazon.com/Badge-149-Gary-P-Jones/dp/0741432447/) or Saints, Sinners, Survivors (http://www.amazon.com/Saints-Sinners-Survivors-Gary-Jones-ebook/dp/B00BB0GFBG/)?

[RichY]

I'm new here, been lurking since Dr. DKR came here, and I found out SLG was here. I knew SLG over on Kifaru (steelworker). Finally decided to join.

I'm 64, soon to be 65. I work out enough to maintain decent physical conditioning, but my mom, at 94, is an entirely different situation. She complains all the time that she doesn't have a firearm in the house, but steadfastly refuses to learn how to shoot one. She says she learned as a kid, but, obviously, that's been awhile! What I have noticed in her over the last five or six years is a profound lessening of strength overall, until just recently, this was manifested in her upper body strength, especially in her shoulders and hands. In the last year, her legs have started going fast (after a fall), and now she refuses to help herself. It is sad, but apparent, that she is now an invalid.

Ten or fifteen years ago I gave her a Marlin Papoose 22, as it was the only rifle she could actually hold and aim. The time came that this was too much too, and I have determined, after seeing her and others of late, that possibly the only thing she may have been able to use in the last few years was a Ruger 22/45 LITE with an RMR or Deltapoint. Her eyes went long before her hand strength, and until last summer, I firmly believed she could have made the 22/45 w/MRDS work. My dad went at 87, but the diseases of the brain destroyed his ability to do much of anything for the last two years of his life. Prior to that, he had just enough strength to easily employ the Ruger combo.

All of the above information fails to give all the various handguns, rifles, and shotguns I tried with both of them starting about twenty years ago. The first handguns that fell aside were double action revolvers and autos. I admit to never trying a LEM, but I'm not sure it would have made much difference. J frames were useless, irrespective of caliber, simply because of the trigger pull. I had some custom pre-MIM J frames back then, and even they were too difficult for them. Blowback 380's are not a good choice, as they tend to flip up and twist too much for what they deliver. The LCP types are impossible to use with old eyes, and the tiny grips do nothing to alleviate the sharp recoil. A more filling grip is not a bad thing. Both parents preferred something with a larger grip. I wanted them to have a centerfire cartridge from a reliability standpoint, and after much trial and error, I came to the opinion the perfect handgun for them was no longer made! It seemed that a lock breech 380, such as the old Colt Government Model, may have been reliable, if not particularly effective. If not that, then something along the lines of the various early twentieth century pocket pistols in 32 acp, such as the Beretta 1935, 1910 Mauser, Colt 1903, etc., may be the best option. Unfortunately, virtually every pistol in this class has only rudimentary sights, which do not help old eyes. For all its faults, I have always found 32 acp pistols to be surprisingly accurate, more so in my experience than 380 (overall, there are always exceptions). It is also very mild in recoil. I realize the wound channel is tiny, but it should prove more reliable than a rimfire, and reliability was what I wanted for them. In the end I realized there was no firearm that was ideal for this situation. Beretta made a nice DA/SA double column 32 with 12 shots back in the 80's that could be cocked and locked, and it may have been ideal, but I haven't seen one in years. The 380 version was not fun to shoot.

If someone other than Kel-Tec made the 22 magnum semi auto, and it could mount an MRDS, it might be a viable answer, or someone would bring back the Colt 1903 with high vis sights, they may prove acceptable for the elderly and handicapped, but my experiences with my parents and more than a few others in the last ten years has led me to believe there is no one right answer and possibly no right answer at all. Each person is different and what they need has to be determined by someone other than the typical clerk in a gun store.

[Tamara]

Beretta made a nice DA/SA double column 32 with 12 shots back in the 80's that could be cocked and locked, and it may have been ideal, but I haven't seen one in years.

Looked something like this (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-oasis-of-calm-assault-weapon-off.html)?

5982


...my experiences with my parents and more than a few others in the last ten years has led me to believe there is no one right answer and possibly no right answer at all. Each person is different and what they need has to be determined by someone other than the typical clerk in a gun store.

Well, hell, I guess I'll stop trying then. :( Thanks for the pointers!

[Malamute]

If someone would bring back the Colt 1903 with high vis sights, they may prove acceptable for the elderly and handicapped...

A brave soul could have decent sights put on a 1903 or other otherwise suitable gun.

I sure miss the one I had.

[RichY]

Looked something like this (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-oasis-of-calm-assault-weapon-off.html)?

5982



Well, hell, I guess I'll stop trying then. :( Thanks for the pointers!

No, that was not pointed at you, but at those I worked with a few years ago. I've read enough of your posts to know better than to EVER suggest that of you! Sorry if it came off that way, as it wasn't my intent.

And YES, That's it! The last one I saw was over $900!

[RichY]

A brave soul could have decent sights put on a 1903 or other otherwise suitable gun.

I sure miss the one I had.


I'm not that brave! Especially at the current going rates.

[Tamara]

Sorry if it came off that way, as it wasn't my intent.

Having dipped my toe in retail again for a bit recently, I'm probably over-sensitive to the topic. God knows it fits far too may counter jockeys in this biz. :(


And YES, That's it! The last one I saw was over $900!

Fortunately, they book rather weakly in Fjestad's Blue Book, so diligent shopping can turn up a winner fairly easily. I think I got that one, in the box with the docs, for $250 or $275, which was slightly over book, actually, three years ago.

[Clay]

A couple in their early 80's came in to our local range this past weekend and wanted to learn to shoot. They moved to AR from CT and wanted to buy a gun because of all the gun control in the NE part of the country where they're from. Long story short, after watching them operate various pistols and talking to them awhile, I recommended pepper spray and flashlights. They were just too feeble and unwilling/unable to devote enough time to learn pistol shooting, IMO. I felt bad for them, but guns aren't for everyone.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Long story short, after watching them operate various pistols and talking to them awhile, I recommended pepper spray and flashlights. They were just too feeble and unwilling/unable to devote enough time to learn pistol shooting, IMO. I felt bad for them, but guns aren't for everyone.

I know those feels. :(

[idahojess]

Also one that may be worth looking at (but I don't have any real experience with) are the new Browning .380 1911s. SO. CUTE.

I handled a Browning 1911-.380 this weekend. Seemed pretty easy to manipulate. The new "pro" model seems pretty nice, with dovetailed sights. They're not really cheap though -- be interesting to see how they run.

[chances R]

Beretta Tomcat very safe and easy to operate. Don't have to ever rack the slide. Also the S&W M&P .22 compact is easy to operate, reliable, and easy to get hits on target.

[Tamara]

Beretta Tomcat very safe and easy to operate. Don't have to ever rack the slide.

The two biggest faults with the 3032 are that they self-destruct with surprisingly low round counts (although the target demographic is unlikely to shoot them enough to find out) and if one has medium-to-large hands and uses a first-knuckle placement on the trigger for the DA pull, your fingertip will bottom out on the left side of the frame before the sear trips.

[Tamara]

*hammer*

[BehindBlueI's]

Again, with the understanding everyone is different, blah blah blah, a friend of mine has a father in his early 80s who is quite fit for someone in their early 80s...but is still someone in their early 80s. After scoping out various .380, .38, and rimfire options, he elected to go with the Ruger SP101 in .327, the 4" with the high visibility front sight. The fiber optic helps him see the front sight, the recoil is manageable for him, and he can thumb cock the trigger and fire it pretty danged well, and can manage the DA pull when required. It was significantly easier for him than manipulating a slide, and of course much easier to load then fussing with magazines.

[Chuck Haggard]

A couple in their early 80's came in to our local range this past weekend and wanted to learn to shoot. They moved to AR from CT and wanted to buy a gun because of all the gun control in the NE part of the country where they're from. Long story short, after watching them operate various pistols and talking to them awhile, I recommended pepper spray and flashlights. They were just too feeble and unwilling/unable to devote enough time to learn pistol shooting, IMO. I felt bad for them, but guns aren't for everyone.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

For home defense a dry chemical kitchen sized fire extinguisher is a good non gun option.

[JTQ]

For home defense a dry chemical kitchen sized fire extinguisher is a good non gun option.
Have you sprayed folks with those in training? What is the effect for those on the receiving end?

[Nephrology]

Have you sprayed folks with those in training? What is the effect for those on the receiving end?

Wiki suggests it will depend on which fire extinguisher you use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#Dry_chemical

Looking at the list of potential contents, it will depend. Sodium bicarb probably isn't a big deal (it's what's in Tums), but monoammonium phosphate probably isn't pleasant.

[hufnagel]

note to self: need to find tactical assault fire extinguisher for mom. something with big handles too so she can swing it after she discharges it. I really wish she'd get into firearms, but I can only do so much.

[JBP55]

note to self: need to find tactical assault fire extinguisher for mom. something with big handles too so she can swing it after she discharges it. I really wish she'd get into firearms, but I can only do so much.

Wasp Spray would be easier for her to handle, one in each hand.

[serialsolver]

Wasp Spray would be easier for her to handle, one in each hand.

Shoots farther too.


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[RichY]

The two biggest faults with the 3032 are that they self-destruct with surprisingly low round counts (although the target demographic is unlikely to shoot them enough to find out) and if one has medium-to-large hands and uses a first-knuckle placement on the trigger for the DA pull, your fingertip will bottom out on the left side of the frame before the sear trips.

Agree completely. Also, for older, FAR weaker hands, I don't think the DA pull will work. The early 3032's had smooth and fairly light trigger pulls. Every one I've seen since about 2009 has been gritty and heavy. Far too heavy for a large portion of the elderly population.

I also found that I cannot shoot one left handed, as my medium size hand shape and the magazine button interface enough to drop the magazine after each shot. I discovered this when I considered the 3032 many years ago for my left handed mom. I shot my wife's early, and very smooth 3032 left handed, and the mag dropped after every shot. My wife's hands are small enough to avoid this issue, but my mom has long slender fingers and I think she would have had the same issue I did. We dumped the 3032 soon after all of this.

The bottom line on current 3032's is the wrist exerciser-like trigger pulls on the current models, coupled with a very thin trigger. This would pretty much preclude them for a huge portion of the elderly.

I haven't had the opportunity to try the Sig 250 380 that Tamara has tested, but it sounds like it may just be the ticket. The new Browning 380 may also suffice, provided the individual understands cocked and locked. It's price seems excessive for what it is. I've yet to see one locally to actually check it out.

[Holmes375]

Wasp Spray would be easier for her to handle, one in each hand.

Bear spray is another viable weapon. In the larger canister you have the volume and it delivers a nice pattern at typical home defense distances.

I came across some non-resident campers in the Yellowstone backcountry several years ago who had accidentally discharged their bear spray inside their tent. The results were impressive ;)

[Drang]

Bear spray is another viable weapon. In the larger canister you have the volume and it delivers a nice pattern at typical home defense distances.

I came across some non-resident campers in the Yellowstone backcountry several years ago who had accidentally discharged their bear spray inside their tent. The results were impressive ;)

Bear spray is also not a nerve agent you may have to explain in a courtroom.

[Clay]

I've recommended wasp spray to lots of teachers and courthouse employees.

[Tamara]

Wasp Spray would be easier for her to handle, one in each hand.


Shoots farther too.


I've recommended wasp spray to lots of teachers and courthouse employees.

6384

*pages Chuck Haggard*

*pops popcorn*

I love seeing derpalicious advice get shot down. :)

[warpedcamshaft]

This is gonna be good.

I felt "haggard" when I read the wasp spray comment.

[serialsolver]

Shoots farther too.


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Ok, I've rethought my off hand comment. The spray stuff, bug, bear, pepper ect.... Is not good for folks with copd and asthma (like me). Filling a home with spray may not be a good idea.


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[Chuck Haggard]

I've recommended wasp spray to lots of teachers and courthouse employees.

Wasp spray is an incredibly bad idea, for a variety of reasons. Please stop perpetuating derp and misinformation.

Your advice is so bad that you should in fact backtrack to anyone you gave that advice to and apologize.

I am not even kidding.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wasp Spray would be easier for her to handle, one in each hand.

Wasp spray is an incredibly bad idea, for a variety of reasons. Please stop perpetuating derp and misinformation.

[Chuck Haggard]

Have you sprayed folks with those in training? What is the effect for those on the receiving end?

I have seen the aftermath of people accidentally sprayed with a dry chemical fire extinguisher, and numerous times the effects on big mean dogs. On people you end up in the ER with serious breathing issues. Right in the eye isn't good for you either.

[Chuck Haggard]

Shoots farther too.


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Farther than what?

Wasp spray is a horrible idea, it doesn't have the effective reach people think it has, it doesn't work the way people think it works, it tends to be ineffective at stopping bad guys, and it actually has no more reach than a good streamer OC product like the Sabre Crossfire.

[Clay]

Never mind.

[Nephrology]

For folks that cannot have OC or a fire extinguisher, what would you recommend, Chuck? Wasp spray was recommended to me years ago by Kelly McCann. Why specifically is it a bad idea? No offense, but your rude comments aren't quite enough evidence for me.

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Wasp Spray for self defense is a very old urban legend. Here is an article by Grant Cunningham explaining why it is not a good idea.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2014/09/wasp-spray-for-self-defense-this-myth-just-wont-die/



The concentration of pyrethrins in a typical wasp spray isn’t all that high, but the amount of material in thei stream which hits the insect may weigh as much as it does; even in a small concentration, the insect will get a huge dose of the poison relative to its weight. The distillates which serve as the carrier are selected to get past the bug’s exoskeleton and deliver the poison very rapidly. The result is the effect described above: the insect loses its ability to control its muscular functions in mid-air and drops to the ground, where it rapidly dies.

When directed at a human, I can tell you from experience this doesn’t happen. As I said at the top, several years ago I managed to spray myself in the face with some wasp spray as I attempted to snuff out a large nest. I wasn’t looking at the can as I shifted my grip to get the spray into an difficult place, and I was wearing gloves so that I couldn’t tell where the button was pointed. Instead of hitting the nest the spray hit my face!

I was in no way incapacitated and had no problem walking into the house, cleaning myself off, and checking the manufacturer’s website for first aid procedures. I did notice some tingling and my vision was a little blurry in one eye for a bit, but that was about the extent of it.

[Clay]

Never mind.


My point was never to recommend wasp spray over OC, only that a can of ANY irritant spray that could be kept on hand was better than nothing. That is all. I may be a little pissy this morning. The "derp" comment got me.

The only thing I keep reading against wasp spray is legality. I figure if a school is getting shot up by a nut, and you hose him with an irritant spray sitting on the desk, that might be a reasonable response.

[Chuck Haggard]

Never mind.


My point was never to recommend wasp spray over OC, only that a can of ANY irritant spray that could be kept on hand was better than nothing. That is all. I may be a little pissy this morning. The "derp" comment got me.

The only thing I keep reading against wasp spray is legality. I figure if a school is getting shot up by a nut, and you hose him with an irritant spray sitting on the desk, that might be a reasonable response.

In this case it is not better than nothing, it's worse, because it simply doesn't work, and thus gives the potential victim using it a false sense of security.

The last two cases locally where wasp spray was used on bad guys resulted in the victims nearly being beat to death by a pissed off bad guy who was in no way incapacitated.

Those were simply mugging cases. Wasp spray vs a school shooter would just get the wasp sprayer shot up.

For a non gun solution that actually works the dry chemical fire extinguisher is a vastly better weapon. I also doesn't make a bad smoke screen if needed, and you can beat people with the canister. ...and, in a pinch, they put out fires.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Many of the fight part of active shooter videos show folks in a room waiting to bop the shooter with the extinguisher. Most shooters seem not to know how to enter a room. Also, the extinguisher is usually in the hall in a case. What's a good IWB for the extinguisher?

As far as wasp spray, I don't know about current ingredients but some used to be neurotoxins and quite dangerous. Folks would spray them in the house and get quite sick or dead. That was a 70's neurobiology lecture. There are laws about their usage and whether they would be considered lethal force. That means in an OC allowable situation, you used a lethal weapon. I would have to track that down though.

[Clay]

Thank you gentlemen. A fire extinguisher can be a little hard to explain when there's a big one down the hallway in a little metal cabinet. A can of bug spray is pretty easy, and often already available. My apologies for spreading "derp", as I have heard this many times from well known instructors, as well as police officers.


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[Chuck Haggard]

Older wasp sprays were often some form of organophosphate, which is just a basically weak form of what people would call nerve gas. These chemicals are very powerful and not to be taken lightly.

Modern wasp sprays, according to a friend in the business, now often use nicotine as the active ingredient. If you spray Joe Crackhead with that he might ask for more.



Clay, I know it's been often repeated, and by WAY too many cops. It's always been horrible advice. That is some derp that needs to die.


Many of the teachers I've trained now have fire extinguishers in their classrooms. No one looks twice at them.

[Clay]

Thanks Chuck. I'll go that route. I did pick up some of the small can sized fire extinguishers from Amazon a while back, I wonder if those might be a convenient option. I tried one outside and it was pretty impressive in range and volume.

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[Clay]

These are what I bought - http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Gone-2NBFG2704-White-Extinguisher/dp/B0051TPJKG/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1457460574&sr=1-6&keywords=fire+extinguisher

Sam's Club sells something similar- http://www.samsclub.com/sams/16-oz-fireade-twin/prod19542441.ip?navAction=

OP, sorry for the thread drift.

[Chuck Haggard]

The first one appears to be an aqueous foam, which wouldn't be the same as the dry chemical.

Something like this is what I'd recommend for that job;
http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-FA110-Purpose-Extinguisher-1A10BC/dp/B00002ND64/ref=pd_bxgy_263_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Y67KAG1Z5P9H457AS3J


Why?

https://youtu.be/dfW5-zZzras?t=118

vs

https://youtu.be/9N7ogcXRzxk?t=8

[Clay]

Excellent, those are available in the local Wal-Mart for around $14, IIRC.

[coldcase1984]

Forgotten I'd actually put together a Grandma Gun for my MIL about a year ago; but she refuses to arm herself! Put it in the safe at my fun place and hadn't looked at it since. Gonna take a pic and hope it'll upload when I get done with dinner etc. this evening.

It's based off a Ruger MkII pistol and it's accurate enough to drop a wasp or a lapsed WASP!;)

[coldcase1984]

Well, a barricaded subject shot Friday in the butt, nine hours on the range w Dept. NDPs and on-call supervisor hampered my gun gackery, til now.

A Tac-Sol 3-in. Upper on a stainless Mark II frame w CTC LG is my MIL gun/semi-auto Kit Gun.
Ten rounds of Velocitors around the pretty red dot would change a channel PDQ.6528.

Have no idea why it's showing upside down!

[Holmes375]

That's pretty cool - even upside down :)

[Tamara]

That gun is oddly fascinating. I bet it's a hoot to shoot.

[coldcase1984]

That gun is oddly fascinating. I bet it's a hoot to shoot.

It is. Thinking about puttin it on the 22/45 plastic frame, though the weight drop might make it too bouncy for an elderly person with grip issues.

That frame has a VQ fire group in it which would make for a machine-pistol effect were the shooter motivated.

Been painting black front sights today a'la Revolver Roundup. Neon Pop nail polish is damn near good as the laser grip on this ol' Ruger...

[aimtrue]

For many of us who once had the vigor and strength of youth, now find ourselves having to adapt to the influences of aging and diminishing skills. At age 84 my confrontations with these influences have created difficult challenges for me.

I posted in another internet gun forum about this very matter. Reading the posts in this thread, I would like to add my two cents as well.

From the time I flew as a crewman in the Navy in 1949 I have carried a sidearm on my hip or concealed. My choice of weapons have covered many makes and calibers of revolvers and semiautomatic pistols. None were hard to hold, rack, had a recoil that I could not handle and shoot with a degree of accuracy that I wanted to maintain.

That was then. This is now. I have diminished eyesight and arthritis in my shoulders and arms. I can no longer carry and handle full size revolvers, 9mm, .40 and .45 pistols as I once did. I resisted smaller calibers but in the end had to downsize in order to continue carrying concealed on a daily basis.

I tried smaller revolvers and the plastic 9mm and .40 Glock, FNX, and, Shield pistols. They were still too heavy to carry and hard for me to rack. Next, I tried some very small .380 pistols. They did not work for me because they seemed to jam as often as they fired. Whether the problem was because of limp wrist or poorly fitted component parts, I never found one of these small guns reliable enough for me to carry..

The weapon I did find that I am able to carry in a pocket holster or on my hip throughout the day without pain is the Glock 42. It is smaller than a 1911 compact, thinner than a double stack G27, racks easily, is reliable, a very accurate at defensive distances and light enough in weight for me to carry throughout the day without pain.

At my age, I cannot run to hide so I need a REALIABLE pistol I can point and shoot. The G42 is that pistol. I can wear, rack and shoot it accurately,

Time does determine our actions. For me, moving to a smaller caliber sidearm has been my solution.

[Exurbankevin]

OP, sorry for the thread drift.

Is all good. I think we forget sometimes is that what we're selling is personal security, not the use of a hunk of metal.

[Clay]

Indeed, sir.

I have to say I'm very interested in the P250 that Tam is testing. A .380 in that size may be just the ticket. I really like the idea of a revolver, but most have a very heavy trigger pull from the factory, and the ideal gun, IMO anyways, requires no work from the factory.

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[11B10]

When I began reading this thread, I thought "oh no - the wasp spray thing again!" I have quite a bit of experience with such things as I am allergic (as in anaphylactic allergic) to stinging insects. I am so very glad all the knowledgeable folks here rebutted its use for anything but. Great thread - thanks, everyone.

[BillSWPA]

Looking through this thread, I see a lot of people have given real thought to this issue and come up with good, realistic solutions.

When I help teach the NRA Basic Pistol classes at my range, I seem to get a disproportionate number of elderly ladies with hand problems. The experience has made me focus a lot less on minimum caliber requirements and a lot more on light trigger pull, highly visible sights including lasers, an appropriately sized grip for the individual, and as large a magazine capacity as possible. With 85% of attacks occurring outside the home, I focus more heavily on concealed carry choices than home defense choices.

Claude Werner found that his elderly father could function well with a Beretta 21 with Crimson Trace LaserGrips. The tip up barrel prevents having to rack the slide, and the gun can be carried for either a DA first shot, or cocked with the thumb safety on for a SA first shot. The laser helped with failing eyesight. .22 lr. kept recoil at a minimum, and in my experience is no more or less reliable than a centerfire caliber. Claude also machined a channel in the underside of one of the grip panels to receive a bent wire, to be used to push a stuck casing out of the barrel.

Claude has also had good success with the Taurus .22 lr. pistols, and is particularly fond of the PLY-22 for its above-average reliability. He found the Jiminez .22 pistols to be surprisingly good. He also likes a Kel-Tec P-32.

For anyone wishing to use or recommend a Kel-Tec P-32, I strongly recommend changing the standard 9 lb. factory recoil springs to Wolff 11 lb. recoil springs. This is absolutely critical for avoiding first shot jams when the gun is loaded with 7+1. .32 auto is a semi-rimmed cartridge, and when the magazine is fully loaded, if the rim of the top cartridge is in the groove of the cartridge below it, then the 9 lb. recoil springs will often not be enough to chamber that top round. 11 lb. springs will solve this problem every time. +10% extra power magazine springs also help in my experience but only a fraction as much as the upgraded recoil spring.

The condition I described above is very different from what is known as a "rimlock," wherein the rim of one cartridge in a magazine is behind the rim of the cartridge below it. There is no resolving a rimlock other than removing the magazine, and removing the cartridges in the magazine. this is of course a very good reason to always carry a spare magazine with a .32. Many users have attempted to use spacers to eliminate the room necessary for a rimlock to occur. I have done considerable experimentation with spacers, and found that they cause significant premature slidelock issues. In my experience, rimlock occurs when the magazine is being loaded with cartridges. If the magazine is loaded carefully, the same rim interations that make rimlock such a nasty jam will prevent it from ever occurring in the first place.

Crimson Trace makes a LaserGuard that fits the P-32, and pocket holsters for this combination are readily available. Magazine extensions are helpful when using the LaserGuard, but the shooter's grip on the gun is otherwise unaffected. I prefer +0 extensions because they hook my finger more effectively and are quieter than the +1 extensions. Holsters that accommodate this combination are plentiful, and the laser significantly enhances the accuracy of this gun under light conditions wherein it can be seen.

[tanner]

Wasp Spray vs Pepper Spray video...

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/sprays-aerosols/videos/73927519-Pepper-Spray-vs-Wasp-Spray-Challenge-Get-the-Facts-for-Self-Defense/

[Chuck Haggard]

For many of us who once had the vigor and strength of youth, now find ourselves having to adapt to the influences of aging and diminishing skills. At age 84 my confrontations with these influences have created difficult challenges for me.

I posted in another internet gun forum about this very matter. Reading the posts in this thread, I would like to add my two cents as well.

From the time I flew as a crewman in the Navy in 1949 I have carried a sidearm on my hip or concealed. My choice of weapons have covered many makes and calibers of revolvers and semiautomatic pistols. None were hard to hold, rack, had a recoil that I could not handle and shoot with a degree of accuracy that I wanted to maintain.

That was then. This is now. I have diminished eyesight and arthritis in my shoulders and arms. I can no longer carry and handle full size revolvers, 9mm, .40 and .45 pistols as I once did. I resisted smaller calibers but in the end had to downsize in order to continue carrying concealed on a daily basis.

I tried smaller revolvers and the plastic 9mm and .40 Glock, FNX, and, Shield pistols. They were still too heavy to carry and hard for me to rack. Next, I tried some very small .380 pistols. They did not work for me because they seemed to jam as often as they fired. Whether the problem was because of limp wrist or poorly fitted component parts, I never found one of these small guns reliable enough for me to carry..

The weapon I did find that I am able to carry in a pocket holster or on my hip throughout the day without pain is the Glock 42. It is smaller than a 1911 compact, thinner than a double stack G27, racks easily, is reliable, a very accurate at defensive distances and light enough in weight for me to carry throughout the day without pain.

At my age, I cannot run to hide so I need a REALIABLE pistol I can point and shoot. The G42 is that pistol. I can wear, rack and shoot it accurately,

Time does determine our actions. For me, moving to a smaller caliber sidearm has been my solution.

Thanks for helping prove my theory on that gun.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I handled a Browning 1911-.380 this weekend. Seemed pretty easy to manipulate. The new "pro" model seems pretty nice, with dovetailed sights. They're not really cheap though -- be interesting to see how they run.

This is a bit of a necro-post, but my mother, who in her prime was 4'11" and who will be 75 next year, has had issues with trigger reach and running slides for some time. She recently went to the range and tried out a number of rentals, to include the G42, S&W .380EZ, some .22s, etc. What wound up working for her? The Browning 1911-380. As luck would have it, my dad happened to find a used example at another LGS that came with night sights and 3 magazines for a very reasonable price, and she brought it home today:

http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/pistols/1911-380/current-production/black-label-1911-380-pro-full-size-with-rail.html

She's pretty stoked and actually wants to learn how to disassemble and clean it and such, which she has never showed an interest in before. Though she's not planning on toting it around, anyone have any ideas for holsters for this little thing? She's thinking of a laser, too, which leans me toward the CT Railmaster.

[deputyG23]

My wife was a decent revolver shot before she had a stroke in 1999 at the age of forty. Her hand strength is diminished as a result. She can cycle her 4” M10 six times and that pretty much exhausts her hand strength. I have a compact P250 in 9mm that I eventually want her to try but she suffered a broken left wrist in January that is still healing. She is also on blood thinners which disallows self loaders until she can be trained not to cross her thumbs when gripping. I have seen too many sliced thumb knuckles transitioning deputies from revolvers to G17s years ago. My adult children are both shooters and maybe collectively we can get her to come out for a family range day and try a few rounds from comfortable shooting guns such as a 10/22 from a seated bench position for starters. Wadcutters may be a good idea for the .38 as well.
If she likes the P250 trigger, a .22 version may eventually be a fun range gun or even the defense gun if the 9mm version is too much for her. A .32 version of the P250 loaded with hotter Euro ammo would likely be a great disabled/elderly person’s defense pistol. Lighter recoil and more BBs on tap than with .380.

[Bucky]

My wife has week grip strength, and she shoots and manipulates the Beretta 92 quite well. Cock the hammer first, the slide is quite easy to rack. They’re als not prone to week grip malfunctions like some polymers.

[TheNewbie]

Wouldn't a 10/22 with a 30 round mag make a good home defense gun for older or weaker people?

I wish I had picked up a P250 in .380 when they were made.

[HCM]

Wouldn't a 10/22 with a 30 round mag make a good home defense gun for older or weaker people?

I wish I had picked up a P250 in .380 when they were made.

Yes, particularly with an RDS or laser. The key here is good quality / factory mag. And good quality, copper plated ammo. For defense use CCI mini mags seem to be the gold standard.

[Poconnor]

I really wish I hadn’t sold my beretta 380 with the tip up barrel

[RichY]

Back towards the end of high school -- I think Benjamin Harrison was President then, I took a Beretta M34 my dad had brought home from the war out for a day of shooting. I used to squirrel hunt a lot, and preferred a head shot, but I didn't realize the 34 hit low. I aimed for the squirrel's head and got a perfect hit right behind the shoulder. Now I have taken tons of squirrels with that shoulder shot too with a 22 rifle and they were always dead when they hit the ground. This squirrel hits the ground and runs inside a hollow log near the tree and I was able to end its misery with a point blank shot to the head when it stuck it out of the log. I never again trusted the 380 after that. Someone over on another forum told me I was stupid for equating that with the effectiveness of the 380 against a human. I think that is flat out silly. A fox squirrel weighs about a pound dressed out and its organs are a fraction of the size of an adult human. I would therefore equate the damage difference to favor effectiveness on the squirrel to be significantly better. I didn't have a chronograph in those days so I have no idea of the velocity of whatever fmj round I was using.

Fast forward 49 years and I have had to modify my position somewhat. My wife is only 5'1" and has rheumatoid arthritis in her fingers and wrists. She has no issues with any 9mm's she's shot, including her several (now down to 2) G43's, but she wanted something a bit smaller than even the G43. Against my better judgement, I told her to rent several 380's at a local range in Prescott Valley. She asked me why I would push for her to try a 380, when I had such contempt for the cartridge, and I reminded her she was (rarely) carrying a Kel-Tek P32 at the time and even the 380 trumped that caliber. After much experimentation, she ended up with a couple of LCP II's (one with a CT laser), a G42, and an S&W M&P Shield 380 EZ. If I knew how to post a photo, I'd put the 7 yard group she shot with the laser equipped LCP II! It's basically one hole! She has now gone from carrying the P32 on occasion, and even more rarely carrying the G43, to always carrying the G43 AND one of the LCP II's when we travel weekly down to Phoenix! She had cancer awhile back and she was basically gutted to save her life and she can no longer cinch up a belt tight enough to even carry a G43 without extreme discomfort. As a result, she carries it on her left ankle, with two spare magazines on her right ankle, and one of the LCP II's in her right pocket. To date she has yet carried the G42, primarily because the other two pistols are always at hand. She has discovered that the G42 is the heaviest pistol she can carry all day on her belt without any discomfort. The slightly heavier G43 can be carried for short time frames, but for an entire day, the few ounces differences is enough to bring on the discomfort. Our scale shows the G43, loaded with HST 147 gr. weighs 21.9 ounces, whereas the G42, loaded with 95 gr. fmj weighs 16.29 ounces. That slight difference is enough for her to be able to carry for only a couple of hours, or an entire day. She prefers the ankle/pocket combo for now, and I am just thrilled she's finally carrying routinely.

At this point we are both healthy enough that none of the 9mm's are causing any issues, but she said today that she could see even the LCP II becoming too much, along with the G43, at some point in the future. The size difference between the G42 and the EZ is fairly significant, though the recoil is negligible in each. For my average hands, while I shoot the G42 well, it's a bit small for my hands to do the best work, but the EZ feels nearly perfect. The EZ weighs 22.01 ounces with a CT laser and loaded with 90 or 95 gr. loads (don't remember which I put in it for checking the loaded weight). However, health is never a sure thing, even though when you are younger you take it for granted. Looking at folks in church today, I realize just how tenuous our grip on it can be and how fast we can lose it!

So, at this point, if i live to be old enough/infirm enough to have to move away from full or compact size 9mm's, but I still wanted to edc, I would probably go with the EZ simply because it fits my hand so well, and takes almost no effort to load the magazines and chamber a round. I also like the 8+1 capacity. The G42 fits her tiny hands better, and it would probably be her choice for carry. As for something in the nightstand, the choice at that point would be easy! It would be the EZ! The laser helps aging eyes, controls are incredibly easy to manipulate, and recoil is far closer to a 22 than a 9mm! The grip is hand filling, which alone can be an aid for ailing fingers/wrists, etc., the trigger is great, and I like the extra two shots in an easier to load magazine. Both of us feel that for home defense, the EZ is probably the clear winner. Even with her tiny hands she has no problems with the grip. I firmly believe my 96 year old mother could operate it effectively, and the laser would overcome failing eyesight (having previously tested this).

We tested a huge assortment of currently available loads to see which were both reliable and accurate. We narrowed it down to three loads that all three pistols shoot well, though each may have a slight preference in regards to accuracy. The three loads they shot best were the Fiocchi 95 gr. fmj, the Underwood Lehigh 90 gr. Penetrators, and the Gold Dot 90 gr. JHP. The EZ prefers the Gold Dots, while the G42 and LCP II clearly show a marked preference for the FIocchi. I have never seen any 380, including handlolds, shoot groups as tight as we are seeing with the Fiocchi in these two pistols. The Gold Dots are very accurate in all pistols, but especially so in the EZ, while the Penetrators shoot slightly high and left in all three pistols, with slightly larger groups -- but not enough to make a difference. The chronograph results were done at 5,000 feet elevation at about 70 degrees F. Apparently they have changed the powders over the loads we used fifty years ago, as the velocities were very similar going from a 2.75" barrel of the LCP II, to the 3.25" on the G42, and finally, the 3.675" barrel of the EZ. The velocities are as follows:

Fiocchi Underwood Gold Dot

LCP II 906 fps 1,033 fps 922 fps

G42 947 fps 1,040 fps 938 fps

EZ 972 fps 1,052 fps 965 fps

Based on these chronograph tests, I don't think anyone would know which pistol they got hit with, as the velocities are so close. The Underwood load has very little velocity variation. For a boutique load, I was somewhat surprised and pleased at their consistency.

All the pistols have been 100% reliable with all the various loads we tried (Sig, a couple of Hornady, Speer, both FMJ and JHP, Winchester JHP, Black Hills, Remington UMC, PMC, Seller and Bellot, Fiocchi, and Underwood -- and I may have missed a couple.) Each pistol was shot hundreds of rounds, but we did not keep exact round counts for them. In some cases, due to certain loads being more accurate, we shot several hundred more of each through them, before landing at this combination of loads. It should be noted that the PMC and Remington UMC were close seconds in the accuracy department, and some loads we thought would be very accurate were disappointingly inaccurate. In spite of its accuracy, the PMC didn't come close to the Fiocchi in velocity, so we went with the slightly more accurate Fiocchi (it's a tack driver) due to the velocity difference. I do not have the PMC velocity written down, but it was in the mid-800's if I remember correctly.

[Duelist]

Thank you, RichY.

[Nephrology]

Wouldn't a 10/22 with a 30 round mag make a good home defense gun for older or weaker people?

I wish I had picked up a P250 in .380 when they were made.

The Ruger PCC with Glock 9mm magazines is probably what I'd put my money on. .22LR is pretty finicky, especially out of a 10/22 30rd mag.

[RevolverRob]

The Ruger PCC with Glock 9mm magazines is probably what I'd put my money on. .22LR is pretty finicky, especially out of a 10/22 30rd mag.

The BX-25 magazines are much more reliable than any of the previous generation 20-30 round magazines. So much so, I'd almost rely on them for a defensive use. But I still prefer the 10-round BX-1s. A coupler - http://www.hightowerarmory.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HTA1022MC Would allow one to have 20-rounds on the gun from the get go.

A cleaned and lubed 10/22 with mini-mags or velocitators I would expect to run absolutely fine for 20-rounds. Unfortunately, I think there are several issues that prevent the 10/22 from being an ideal "old person gun" out of the gate. The first is the magazine release, absolutely an extended mag release is needed. The Tactical Solutions is the one I like. The next is the safety. While placed pretty well in front of the trigger guard, an oversized button would help. It's also a right-handed gun, lefties need not apply. The third is the stock, the stock wooden stock on a base 10/22 is meh at best and no bueno for a red dot (no cheek weld), Magpul stock is where it is at.

At which point you'd dumped another couple of hundred bucks into a 10/22 to build a defensive gun and I'm not sure there wasn't a better starting point out there. Either in a Ruger PCC or in a AR9 of some flavor (gaining you centerfire). Or if recoil and noise shy is a real issue a Smith and Wesson 15-22.

[BN]

The Ruger PCC with Glock 9mm magazines is probably what I'd put my money on. .22LR is pretty finicky, especially out of a 10/22 30rd mag.

Oversized charging handles are available for the Ruger PCC. https://taccom3g.com/product/ruger-pc-carbine-charge-handle/

It looks like you could put one on each side and use both hands to charge the chamber.

I have one of the Ruger PCC's with a mini Aimpoint. Nice shooting carbine.

[Nephrology]

I have one of the Ruger PCC's with a mini Aimpoint. Nice shooting carbine.

It will be my next firearm purchase, for sure. Hopefully sometime this summer.

[medic15al]

If someone would come up with an update of the Beretta 86 that wasn't priced like imported sin...

Excellent summary!

[RichY]

The Ruger PCC with Glock 9mm magazines is probably what I'd put my money on. .22LR is pretty finicky, especially out of a 10/22 30rd mag.

Both would be/would have been too heavy for my parents. My dad was a pretty tough customer, but in his 80’s he lost a lot of body strength and a 10/22 with wooden stock was too heavy for him and my mom. He passed away some years back, but my mom is 96 and I know she could not lift either rifle effectively. The only rifle I found back then they could use in their 80’s was an old, polymer stocked Marlin Papoose. Other than a G42 (maybe. Stock trigger is not as light as the EZ), or a 380 Shield EZ, about the only firearms she could possibly use now would be a Ruger 22/45 or S&W M&P 22 Compact, preferably equipped with a laser or mrds.

I actually think she could still use the 380 EZ with CT laser, but my sister is caring for her now and I wouldn’t trust my sister with a cap gun. Of course, everyone ages differently, but this is what I learned in the last 12-15 years with my own parents.

[peterb]

I thought about this thread while shooting a G42 a couple of days ago...

Recoil is easy to manage. I haven’t had a chance to shoot a EZ, but .380 in a larger & heavier gun should be manageable by almost anyone.
The G42 slide might be stiff for some folks. The larger slide and softer spring on the EZ is probably....easier. Some sort of slide extensions for a better grip could help.
G42 is good as is for small hands. For larger hands, or if concealment isn’t an issue, a grip sleeve like a Handall might make sense.
Magazine finger rests are probably a good idea for folks with grip issues. The finger rest magazine felt more secure to me, even though I didn’t see a real difference in split times with or without it.
G42 magazines might be hard to reload without a tool.
G42 slide release is very stiff.
I put the Ameriglo Spaulding sights on mine(bright orange front, solid black rear) which seemed to work well.
I’ve done a bit of work with adaptive sports. If you’re working with someone with grip issues, don’t hesitate to make modifications to make the tool work for the user. Grip tape, grip sleeves, reshaping — it might not be what you’d do for yourself, but it can make a big difference for someone who needs the help.

I like the G42 a lot, but there are tradeoffs for having such a compact package.

[JAH 3rd]

For me, I would start with recoil sensitivity and work from there. It is hard to choose a firearm for someone you have never met. If they are elderly or have medical issues, how often are they going to practice? When I read the title of the thread, my first thought was a Ruger Mark IV .22 pistol. Just the basic model. It is a great pistol with little to no recoil. I have a target Mark II with the slab-sided barrel, so that's the only experience I have with the Ruger Mark pistols. BTW, the stock trigger is so sweet, I don't know why the lawyers allowed to leave the factory! Just by .02 cents.

[cold-beer]

Ruger LCR in 22 mag.

It has virtually no recoil, but 22 mag even out of a short barrel like that is nothing to sneeze at with some of these new loads like the new Speer Gold Dots in 22 mag.

[Baldanders]

Another revolver--

I had my gunsmith smooth and lighten the trigger on a .38 M&P Bodyguard for my Mom. She has severe arthritis and a whole bunch of metal in her hands. The oversized back-mounted cylinder release is definitely easier for her to use than a standard one. She liked my 640 pro, but not the weight. I wish they made a K-frame with the same set-up and a 3" barrel. That would be my wish for a "golden years" weapon for myself.

If I could get an engineer to design a semi for this niche (and a gun company to build it) it would be a g19-sized gun with a rotating, tip-up barrel action(assuming that's physically possible, I have a feeling there's a reason why all tip-ups are blowbacks) with an ultra-lightweight frame with many interchangeable backstraps , with easy caliber change between .22lr, .32 ACP, and .380 ACP. The trigger would be a Kahr-like, long, light DAO.

This looks interesting, but I'd have to actually shoot one, and the one-shot capacity seems like a problem: http://constitutionarms.com/palm-pistol/

[Tod-13]

When I was planning for if my arthritis gets worse, I found a forum full of older women that shoot. They generally liked the Glock 42 or 43 as the lowest recoiling and easiest to rack slides, despite their light weight. Recommending a (sub)compact sounds backwards, but the recoil is pretty light and working the light is pretty easy.

[RichY]

When I was planning for if my arthritis gets worse, I found a forum full of older women that shoot. They generally liked the Glock 42 or 43 as the lowest recoiling and easiest to rack slides, despite their light weight. Recommending a (sub)compact sounds backwards, but the recoil is pretty light and working the light is pretty easy.

My wife has arthritis everywhere. Her fingers are bent up. She was diagnosed with it three months after we were married 35 years ago. As with the women of the site you mention, she also has 43's and a 42 that she carries. However, she recently bought an EZ 380 and it is FAR easier for her to use. Far easier for me too, as it fits my hand better than the G42. We both appreciate its better trigger even after the G42 was extensively worked over, FAR easier slide to manipulate, easier magazine to load, holds more rounds, and the recoil is noticeably less than the G42! In fact, the recoil is closer to a 22. Accuracy on both is excellent. We were comparing the G42 to the M&P 380 EZ just two days ago and even with her tiny hands she found the slide far easier to rack and lower than the G42. Though we have shot them both at the same range sessions multiple times, we never really did a side-by-side comparison in this regard. After this was mentioned by peterb in a previous post, we wanted to compare them and found we agree completely with him. The larger grip is also fine for her small hands.

For concealment the G42 wins hands down, and it is certainly not going anywhere, but if strictly looking at ease of manipulation and trigger pull, the EZ is the champ. Both, through many hundreds of rounds, have been accurate and 100% reliable.

Due to my recent eye surgeries, my shooting eye doesn't see sights indoors as well as my left, so as a right hand shooter, I am training myself to just use the left eye. However, when we were doing the comparison the other day I realized the sights on the EZ allow me to see them better indoors than any other pistol we own. There's more light coming through the rear sight and it makes a significant difference. We have also mounted a CT laser on the EZ and that gives us a true old age pistol! I've not been a fan of the 380 for decades, but if I had to pick a pistol for home defense or even carry as I age, the Smith would get the nod first, followed by the G42, even though both of us really like the G42. In fact, we really like the G42 a lot, it's just that for the specific purpose of using as we age, the EZ appears right now to be the best of what's out there. Time will tell.

[peterb]

Quick note: I just added a Boodad’s grip cover(like Talon rubber) to my G42, and I’m impressed with how much more secure it feels. Don’t be afraid to try modifying the grip if the G42 feels a bit slippery to you.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BooDads-Grips-Textured-Rubber-Grip-Tape-for-Glock-42/261981355561?hash=item3cff4e3e29:g:3dUAAOSwMmBVtU4 T

[OlongJohnson]

I'm a fan of the Buck Mark for rimfire pistols. It is accurate, reliable and affordable. They make a variety of models with aluminum barrels that come in at ~24oz., and a variety of grips and frames. The URX grip seems to be a magic combination of comfort for small and large hands. There's also the "pencil barrel" option on "Challenge" models, a reference to the Challenger series of pistols. I have had a BM that needed some cleanup on internal parts, but then, that's been a possibility for me on every brand so far except H&K. http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/pistols/buck-mark-pistols/current-production/buck-mark-challenge-rosewood.html

This thread has got me thinking about a CZ 512 in WMR again. AFAIK, it's the only reputable semi-auto long gun that's persisted in availability in WMR and is regarded by its user community as fully reliable with that cartridge.

Also, an ammo question. Why do people think of Stingers for use against large targets? They are a 32gr HP, and it seems like penetration would be minimal. At least Velocitors would be better, and maybe even the heavier 45gr suppressor stuff would seem like a solid option, at least for the caliber.

I have had stovepipes even with "quality" ammo and a clean, lubed Buck Mark, so I'm not a huge fan of rimfire for something where an ammo-caused failure to function may hurt. The .25 ACP has about the same energy as a Mini Mag, but it's CF, so should avoid at least FTFire malfunctions. There's also 5.7x28, which is a slight upgrade from WMR, and also CF. The FN pistol is crazy expensive and YUUGE, but the PS90 or an AR-57 conversion might be a decent option in the home defense role.

[willie]

Olong makes excellent points. I think that .22's, 25ACP, and 32 Autos are in the same category. Ranking them, I put the 25 ACP at the bottom. I like 380 ACP pistols and have had many nice ones. Most were the size of some of today's small 9mm pistols. My LCP 380 is very small and has a perfect function record. The same is true for another one that I shot extensively but later sold. In searching for pistols more suitable for some arthritics, has anyone considered surplus Makarovs that once were so common? When participating in these types of threads, my mind alwsys returns to the same idea---that a customized revolver might be a better choice for many.

[Duelist]

Olong makes excellent points. I think that .22's, 25ACP, and 32 Autos are in the same category. Ranking them, I put the 25 ACP at the bottom. I like 380 ACP pistols and have had many nice ones. Most were the size of some of today's small 9mm pistols. My LCP 380 is very small and has a perfect function record. The same is true for another one that I shot extensively but later sold. In searching for pistols more suitable for some arthritics, has anyone considered surplus Makarovs that once were so common? When participating in these types of threads, my mind alwsys returns to the same idea---that a customized revolver might be a better choice for many.

We had a Makarov, a nice unissued Bulgarian one. It was very accurate and easy for me and my wife to shoot, but very heavy. The recoil spring is very stiff: my mother’s arthritic, tremoring hands could not possibly move it, and it hurt to try. My wife liked shooting it, but not carrying it due to the weight. Her gun now is a G42: reliable, accurate, easy to shoot, and small and light enough to actually ocassionally carry.

Since we don’t do things that hurt Mom, we moved on from the Makarov for her. Her current gun is a Beretta 21a, but she might be getting an M&P .380 EZ as a gift this year. I was messing with one the other day at the store, and it was just remarkable how easy it actually is.

Dad is moving into geezer gun territory as well. His 1911 is too much at the moment. He has a .38 snub ose and a tiny little Kimber 9mm, but I think he might have an easier time with a G42 or M&P EZ.

A custom rim fire revolver might be a good move. We haven’t tried that.

[OlongJohnson]

My LCP Custom shoots patterns unless I crush the grip. I suspect that whatever reputation for inaccuracy the LCP has is related to this. Not a selection for weak hands.

Mine also has issues with extraction and has had the takedown pin walk out. Don’t know whether it will be fixable or have to go down the road.

[Duelist]

My LCP Custom shoots patterns unless I crush the grip. I suspect that whatever reputation for inaccuracy the LCP has is related to this. Not a selection for weak hands.

Mine also has issues with extraction and has had the takedown pin walk out. Don’t know whether it will be fixable or have to go down the road.

Send it back to the mothership. Let them deal with fixing it.

[willie]

I drink LCP kool aid because my sample of two performed for me. That said, the one thing that made mine easier to shoot was replacing the factory recoil spring with a Wollf 13 lb spring. Apparent recoil was greatly reduced. The pistol was more manageable. Hence, I shot with greater accuracy. Also, I replaced the plastic rod with a Galloway Precision stainless steel rod.

[RevolverRob]

J&G has some surplus Beretta 84s and 84Fs in stock - http://www.jgsales.com/beretta-84-cheetah-semi-auto-pistol,-380acp,-blued,-wood-grips,-g-vg,-used.-p-101851.html, http://www.jgsales.com/beretta-84f-cheetah-semi-auto-pistol,-380acp,-blued,-black-grips,-g-vg,-used.-p-101852.html

I prefer the 81/82 variants in .32 as any even lower recoiling gun and these don't have tip-up barrels, but the 84 is a light recoiling gun.

[OlongJohnson]

There are a couple specific P250 threads, but I have decided to add my P250 comments to this one, because it is the most relevant to my focus, and is the context where the P250 really shines above other options.

I picked up a P250 .22LR a few months back, have really enjoyed shooting it, and it has been very accurate for me. So I put my Beretta 84 and LCP on consignment and started stalking GB for a P250 .380. Found a SubCompact with a poorly-researched buy-it-now. It's been carried and shot some. I had to detail strip it to get the Florida sand out of it. I hadn't bothered to get into the P320 previously, so I hadn't figured out how the FCG separates from the grip module. I love it. The ability to so easily get all the moving parts out of the thing that makes them hard to clean is awesome, and you can thoroughly wash the grip module with Dawn, warm water and a bottle brush.

Further, stripping the trigger, trigger bar and slide catch from the FCG is super easy and intuitive. The pins that have to be pushed can be moved with finger pressure, no punches required. While I had it apart, I made sure I understand how it all works. I noticed that the trigger bar had some burrs around the edges from the stamping process. In particular, the hammer hook had a notable burr right on the release edge.

I spent a few minutes deburring the trigger bar so the hook engagement surface is actually sorta flat and generally burr-free. The ramp surface that rides on the pin to disengage the trigger bar from the hammer was in as-stamped, fully rough condition, so I smoothed it. Same with the bent tab edge that rubs the side of the FCG frame, and I knocked the top of the roughness off the frame where it rubs. Touched it all up (except the frame, of course) with cold blue. Cleaned everything in alcohol to make sure the stoning swarf didn't go back in the gun. Springs are all untouched. Thoroughly lubed it. Put it back together in the Compact/medium frame that came with the .22LR and did some dry firing.

Holy Cow! This trigger is exceptionally smooth, and also light. Previously, you could feel the roughness of the disengagement ramp, and there was a distinct stacking right before the break, likely due to the engagement of the trigger bar with the hammer rotating onto the burr and dragging as it disengaged. All that is gone. It's just smooth, like a Beretta D model but lighter. As a DAO dork, I'm very pleased and impressed so far. Can't wait to get to the range.

At this point, I fully intend to repeat the treatment on the FCG that came with the .22LR, although it is better out of the box than the .380 was. IMO, this falls squarely under my argument that using gun parts to shape metal rather than using metal shaping tools is a waste of time and ammo. The material removed would eventually be mostly/sorta/kinda removed from use, but not without causing excess wear to the opposing surfaces, possibly deforming them outside the design parameters. And there's no reason to expect that the worn surfaces would necessarily ever be made flat. By carefully removing material in a controlled, observed manner without causing wear on the opposing surfaces, the machine is brought into a better condition, able to operate more effectively from the beginning. To the extent that the surfaces now "wear in" to each other, they are starting in a smoother, more uniform condition. There are no more high points and burrs to cause adverse wear (grooves, gouges, etc.) on mating surfaces. A better final result can be expected, and it will likely be arrived at in less use. And it's pretty sweet already.

[Duelist]

There are a couple specific P250 threads, but I have decided to add my P250 comments to this one, because it is the most relevant to my focus, and is the context where the P250 really shines above other options.

I picked up a P250 .22LR a few months back, have really enjoyed shooting it, and it has been very accurate for me.



Sounds sweet. Are you going to put the .22 in the subcompact module?

[HCM]

Sounds sweet. Are you going to put the .22 in the subcompact module?

The issue with this would be the .22 and .380 Only have one size of magazines (Compact)

[OlongJohnson]

True, the .22LR is only supplied as a compact.

The .380 was supplied as a SubCompact with or without (what I got) a rail. It has a 12-round mag. The SubCompact grip module is only supplied in "small" trigger reach.

The .380 slide is only available in SubCompact length. When supplied as a Compact with 15-round magazines, the grip module was literally a normal Compact grip module that Sig just cut shorter. So any P250/P320 compact grip module can be used, it just has to be trimmed to look right.

CDNN is currently blowing out both the 12-rd SC and the 15-rd Compact mags for $19.99. They will likely be difficult to find and expensive once those are gone.


Sounds sweet. Are you going to put the .22 in the subcompact module?

Per above, nope.

I haven't decided what module I'll use on the .380 yet. The SC has a small reach. I think my hand works a lot better on the medium, but we'll see. I have an X-grip adapter on the way to try the C mags in the SC grip module. Maybe carry the SC module with C mags for reload? I also expect to share it with small people who have smaller hands. Not sure whether it will be better for them to go with the SC/Cmag combo or spend the $33 for a C/small module.

[TGS]

True, the .22LR is only supplied as a compact.

The .380 was supplied as a SubCompact with or without (what I got) a rail. It has a 12-round mag. The SubCompact grip module is only supplied in "small" trigger reach.

The .380 slide is only available in SubCompact length. When supplied as a Compact with 15-round magazines, the grip module was literally a normal Compact grip module that Sig just cut shorter. So any P250/P320 compact grip module can be used, it just has to be trimmed to look right.

CDNN is currently blowing out both the 12-rd SC and the 15-rd Compact mags for $19.99. They will likely be difficult to find and expensive once those are gone.



Per above, nope.

I haven't decided what module I'll use on the .380 yet. The SC has a small reach. I think my hand works a lot better on the medium, but we'll see. I have an X-grip adapter on the way to try the C mags in the SC grip module. Maybe carry the SC module with C mags for reload? I also expect to share it with small people who have smaller hands. Not sure whether it will be better for them to go with the SC/Cmag combo or spend the $33 for a C/small module.

thanks for pointing this out to me from our PMs.

My wife has a Compact-framed P250 380, the one that uses the 15 round mags. They were about $40 each when she got the gun, and so I went ahead and bought her a bunch more thanks to you pointing this out!

As an aside, she generally likes the P250 and it provides her with a gun that meets IWBA defined "marginal" performance but with 16 rounds, low recoil and easy slide manipulations. She had a lot of trouble with it in the beginning where it had a LOT of light strikes, and it turns out the firing pin roll pin was installed incorrectly and impinging free movement of the firing pin. Since then it hasn't had any trouble.

However, the recoil spring is almost too light....even after cleaning and lubrication, it's very weak going into battery. I've been wondering if I could get a different, stronger spring (maybe a regular 9mm P250 spring?) and cut it down so it's not too strong, but a touch stronger than the standard spring. If there were a Wolff +10% spring for the P250 380, that'd probably be perfect.

The other thing I was wondering is if there's a light that would fit on the P250 380 Compact, which as OolongJohnson pointed out uses a Compact frame cut down to Subcompact length. My Surefire XC1 doesn't fit it, so I might have to start buying lights and testing. My top two guesses were one of the TLR-6 rail versions and a TLR-3. Anyone have any input?

[OlongJohnson]

Update on the P250 .380.

Had some issues with Geco ammo on the first range trip. Every other brand I took ran 100 percent, so for now, I'm mostly attributing it to the ammo. I have 200 rounds that have been reworked using a Redding taper crimp die and plunk into a Wilson case gauge perfectly, so that will be my next range trip. We'll see.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22303-380-acp-ammo&p=802772&viewfull=1#post802772

I also did some cleaning. Got after the chamber with a bronze brush and some Hoppe's No. 9. Took some carbon out of it.

I had not bothered to do my usual strip/inspect/detail of the magazines before shooting them. Went straight from the package to the range. I never do that, except for this time.

There is a lump of casting flash on the left rear corner of the follower, in addition to the usual rough edges and parting lines. The two mags I'd set apart due to more/worse failures had a bigger lump there than others, although one not set aside was similar to them. Don't know if that was a factor, but I deburred/smoothed them as I usually do. Everything else about the magazines looked great. Feed lips were beautiful, the quality appearance most of us wish was found on everything Sig.

[OlongJohnson]

I have 200 rounds [of Geco] that have been reworked using a Redding taper crimp die and plunk into a Wilson case gauge perfectly...

200 rounds ran perfectly. Zero hiccups of any kind. The only problem was not having brought a fifth box of ammo.

Figure it's about ready to start vetting with some XTPs.

I added some foil tape to the inside of the dust cover on the Compact frame where it extends ahead of the slide. That seems to be holding up quite nicely, keeping it from embedding soot into the plastic.