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Cowtown44
02-08-2016, 02:00 PM
I'm hoping to get some feedback from experienced match directors (MD) or other organizers/stage builders about what they think or have observed are successful formulas for running USPSA matches. Success defined as safe, challenging, minimal waiting and back ups. Let's assume USPA, 100 shooters, 5 stages with 1 being a classifier, decent weather conditions, variety of shooter experience. Thanks for the input.

Sal Picante
02-08-2016, 02:50 PM
I'm hoping to get some feedback from experienced match directors (MD) or other organizers/stage builders about what they think or have observed are successful formulas for running USPSA matches. Success defined as safe, challenging, minimal waiting and back ups. Let's assume USPA, 100 shooters, 5 stages with 1 being a classifier, decent weather conditions, variety of shooter experience. Thanks for the input.


I'll have a bit to say - just gotta get through the workday...

Quick question: Level 1 match (Club?)

jh9
02-08-2016, 03:02 PM
I'm hoping to get some feedback from experienced match directors (MD) or other organizers/stage builders about what they think or have observed are successful formulas for running USPSA matches. Success defined as safe, challenging, minimal waiting and back ups. Let's assume USPA, 100 shooters, 5 stages with 1 being a classifier, decent weather conditions, variety of shooter experience. Thanks for the input.

I don't know about formulas, but for a 100 shooters I would say absolutely no less than 3 squads, 3 ROs, 3 competent score keepers and a reasonable experienced : noob ratio for the rest. What the latter is I can't say for sure. Like Les says, I assume this is a new level 1 / club match.

If you can't run at least 3 squads simultaneously with the above then you can't safely support 100 shooters. The match will drag on, you and the handful of ROs will start to get hot/tired/annoyed and one of the million new shooters that showed up to the match for the first time with a gun still in the box won't have an RO at the top of their game to stop them from doing something stupid.

This is a running topic in another semi-local forum for IDPA/steel/USPSA shooters. Everybody across the state has noticed a large increase in new shooters with zero experience. You need to be able to have adequate RO coverage, and you need to have enough experienced shooters there to point out not just the technical rules violations but the potential gotchas and "almost fucked up" snafus that happen when someone is learning the game. For a squad of 30 people or more with just one RO, you're pushing it. Especially if half the squad are noobs.

You need to have enough support personnel to make it run safely. If your area is anything like ours, the surge in new shooters has to be managed carefully or the otherwise outstanding safety record these organized matches have will start to look like the freakshow you see at public / management area ranges.

Cowtown44
02-08-2016, 03:44 PM
I'll have a bit to say - just gotta get through the workday...

Quick question: Level 1 match (Club?)Yes, level 1, thanks in advance for the response.

Peally
02-08-2016, 04:15 PM
30 dudes to a squad is a lot of dudes. We try to shoot for ~10 or 12 locally.

BN
02-08-2016, 04:18 PM
Every bay should take the same amount of time per squad, so there is not a back up. Make sure your squads are adjusted with an equal number of experienced shooters and new shooters.

Figure out how many shooters and how many bays. From "make ready" for one shooter to the next shooter's "make ready" should take from 3 to 4 minutes.

jh9
02-08-2016, 04:24 PM
30 dudes to a squad is a lot of dudes. We try to shoot for ~10 or 12 locally.

I totally agree. 30 is an upper bound. Getting close to 70 shooters per match on a 7-bay range and we average 3 squads. 20something shooter per squad. Start around 10, done by 1-2.

(This is not my match, btw. I hung up the MD hat a few years ago. I'm quite happy to pay my $15.)

Mr_White
02-08-2016, 04:58 PM
I'm far from an MD, but as a USPSA shooter, the thing I see most sorely lacking at USPSA matches is a Loading/Unloading Station. It's not a problem locally, because I know the MDs and they know me, so I just go find them and they direct me to where they'd like my unloading-upon-arrival and reloading-upon-departure to take place, but out of town matches are much more of a PITA. Props to Tim Egan and the SE Idaho Practical Shooters for having a proper loading/unloading station!

PPGMD
02-08-2016, 05:27 PM
I am assuming six bays?

Throw a short course in the bay with the classifier, and then put a squad on each bay. Now it is a 6 stage plus classifier match, and the squad that starts on the classifier bay doesn't get backed up behind a squad with a full stage.

okie john
02-08-2016, 06:09 PM
I haven't shot USPSA, only IDPA, so these comments are based on that.

First, have some kind of class for new shooters before the match. Get them up to speed on draw stroke, reloads, weak hand shooting, the 180-degree rule, shooting on the move, and especially on any range-specific safety rules. If you can't do it a week or so out, then do it on the morning of the match. It will take an extra bay and extra SO's, but it really reduces the knucklehead factor and the unsafe/non-compliant gear, which makes for a much safer match. I consider myself pretty experienced, and my club's mandatory 6-hour course was some of the best instruction I've ever received. It REALLY helped.

Have a handful of holsters/belts/mag pouches for guys who show up with unsafe/non-compliant gear. Usually the more senior guys have old or extra stuff lying around, so put the bug in their ear to bring that stuff if they don't mind. It's a great way to set a new shooter on the path of righteousness before he or she makes a dangerous error.

Don't put all of the new guys in the same squad without a cohort of senior guys to ride herd on them. Distributing your more qualified/senior folks evenly across squads lets them keep an eye on the new people, drive shooters through the preparation process, and spell each other as the match wears on. I've been a scorer and an assistant RO, and I'm good for about 20 shooters before my concentration goes south and I need a break. But half an hour later, I'm good to go again.

Try to keep squads to 10-12 shooters. Having fewer shooters won't give people time to prep for/recover from stage. Having more shooters stretches things out. If you follow Bill Nesbit's suggestion of 3-4 minutes between shooters, then you need a minimum of 45 minutes for 15 shooters to finish a stage. That's a long time for shooters to to stand around, even if they're prepping properly and taping like they should be.

Speaking of which, much of the delay that I've seen has been shooters who are not ready when it's their turn to shoot, so make sure that the RO or the scorer or an assistant of some kind is telling folks that they're up next. This actually takes a lot of proactive work, as you may have to tell the more social people several times to stop flapping their gums and start getting ready.

Finally, create the expectation that everyone who is not either about to shot/on deck/in the hole WILL help tape and reset targets. There's no reason for long turnaround between stages if everyone helps prep the bay for the next shooter. A couple of guys will consistently dodge this, but the rest of them can shake a leg and get things done.


Okie John

BN
02-08-2016, 06:20 PM
go

If you follow Bill Nesbit's suggestion of 3-4 minutes between shooters, then you need a minimum of 45 minutes for 15 shooters to finish a stage.
Speaking of which, much of the delay that I've seen has been shooters who are not ready when it's their turn to shoot, so make sure that the RO or the scorer or an assistant of some kind is telling folks that they're up next. This actually takes a lot of proactive work, as you may have to tell the more social people several times to stop flapping their gums and start getting ready.

The suggestion for 3-4 minutes per shooter is from my experience with all day big matches. The math might need to be different for a small club match. The main thing is that the times per squad are the same to prevent back ups.

When my wife and I run a stage, we put all the score sheets on a clipboard, fanned out so everybody's name can be seen at a glance. That way shooters can keep track of where they are. We also call out who is the shooter, who is on deck, and who is in the hole.

Sal Picante
02-08-2016, 06:35 PM
I've been an MD for close to 7 years... Some general thoughts.

* Get help: a core group of good guys that help with setup/tear down/RO/etc. Reward those people with free registration, priority registration or something else. Burnout sucks.

* Consider using Eventbrite or Practiscore to handle all the registration and payment details ahead of the match. Having squads lists, payments, etc all ahead of time makes it easy to just get the show on the road and underway. Additionally, online registration keeps $$ from "blowing away", dig? It is easy to incorporate as a non-profit if necessary, doing so helps handle payments (FEIN #). If the range is putting on events, make sure they can handle payments/etc.

* Get insurance -or- make sure the range's insurance covers the events

* Get a set of decent rules/range policies in order - e.g. the stuff NOT covered in the USPSA rulebook. E.g. how many times can someone DQ per season? What about guys that are drinking before hand? Who can RO? (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/MISS/Bylaws/Bylaws.pdf)

* Consider capping the matches - 100 people is A LOT. Squads of 16 move pretty slow... 10 people per squad moves at a good clip!

* Coreplast sheets from HomeDepot are great for wall sections. If you're outside, and wind is a concern, snow fencing and 2x2's are a good alternative. Walls that are 4'x8' are ideal - you run em tall or long.

* Will you allow folks to reshoot Classifiers? I personally think that is dishonest: people should pay once and get 1 try, but I know I'm a bit of minority there.


More specific thoughts:

* The time is really spent on the walk throughs and stage resets. Anything you can do to make stage resets easier will make things flow faster.

* Stages with 2 strings are almost as much time as 2 separate stages.

* A good mix, scores-wise is still the IPSC rule of thumb: (3) Short Courses to two (2) Medium Courses to one (1) Long Course. Though here in the states, nixing one short course and adding another long course is kinda the deal.


Hit me up if you want...

Sal Picante
02-08-2016, 06:44 PM
First, have some kind of class for new shooters before the match. Get them up to speed on draw stroke, reloads, weak hand shooting, the 180-degree rule, shooting on the move, and especially on any range-specific safety rules. If you can't do it a week or so out, then do it on the morning of the match. It will take an extra bay and extra SO's, but it really reduces the knucklehead factor and the unsafe/non-compliant gear, which makes for a much safer match. I consider myself pretty experienced, and my club's mandatory 6-hour course was some of the best instruction I've ever received. It REALLY helped.


We have to limit participation at our matches - but this is a good idea. We send people to a few reputable trainers that do "intro-courses" regularly.

Sal Picante
02-08-2016, 06:45 PM
Another one: Shell out for kindles. It makes scoring so much easier.

People REALLY like seeing the results at the end of the match.

nwhpfan
02-08-2016, 09:32 PM
I'm hoping to get some feedback from experienced match directors (MD) or other organizers/stage builders about what they think or have observed are successful formulas for running USPSA matches. Success defined as safe, challenging, minimal waiting and back ups. Let's assume USPA, 100 shooters, 5 stages with 1 being a classifier, decent weather conditions, variety of shooter experience. Thanks for the input.

Be careful not to pick stages that show your bias. If you are hoser....don't build 32 round wide open target hoser stages. Don't make everything a 30 yard standard either. A mix. Listen to what the shooters are saying, they are your customer.

Host at least once a year a RO course.

Encourage all shooters comfortable with the game to learn to RO.

Encourage all your shooters to join USPSA.

If it's going to rain, more steel.

Only one crazy stage per match. Don't have every COF have a drop turner activated multi rotating Texas Star.

PPGMD
02-09-2016, 11:03 AM
* Will you allow folks to reshoot Classifiers? I personally think that is dishonest: people should pay once and get 1 try, but I know I'm a bit of minority there.

Personally I would never do it. But I've become ambivalent on grandbagging.

To get to GM, even through grandbagging takes pretty descent skills, so getting a GM card just to bolster your training resume isn't horrible, the guy at least knows how to shoot.

From a competitive stand point, if you grandbag you are just competing against people above your USPSA skill level, so you are getting your shit pushed in. No great loss to other people.

OTOH Sandbagging hurts the value of class awards, and allows people to get prizes that they really shouldn't (as some matches give prizes to class award winners, or a trip to the prize table ahead of their order of finish). So if I have any issues with shooting classifiers it is when people either don't want them submitted, or purposely blow the classifier.

cheby
02-09-2016, 01:00 PM
Be careful not to pick stages that show your bias. If you are hoser....don't build 32 round wide open target hoser stages. Don't make everything a 30 yard standard either. A mix. Listen to what the shooters are saying, they are your customer.

It is hard to cover all the skills during the club match because it is usually just 6 stages. Still, a good club match should be designed to be as balanced as possible.

OTOH, a drop turner activated multi rotating Texas Star sounds like fun, LOL

Lomshek
02-13-2016, 01:22 AM
More specific thoughts:

* The time is really spent on the walk throughs and stage resets. Anything you can do to make stage resets easier will make things flow faster.

* Stages with 2 strings are almost as much time as 2 separate stages.


Man is that ever true! I've been an MD for 4'ish years and totally agree. Simply changing where a target is placed so it can be scored easily without having to wander through a maze of no shoots, barricades and barrels can help immensely.

Other than that having an RO who's not afraid to keep people on task and hustle is extremely important. The guy who walks slowly back to the starting area from the furthest target while chatting with another shooter can add an hour to your match time over 5 stages. Figure if he's walking 30 yards and takes a minute extra because he moves like a retired guy with all day to burn instead of "range walking" or trotting so everyone waits on him to take those last 10 ponderous steps before the make ready command can be given adds a minute to every shooter's reset time. That means 5 stages with 10 shooters takes an extra 50 minutes because of that guy.

When I'm running a squad it almost looks comical as I speed walk through the stage scoring targets with my stats person trying to keep up while tapping away and the squad fanning out to cover the different target arrays waiting for me to blaze by to paste. I ran a 10 member squad on our night shoot (full dark outside range) through 4 30+ round stages with stars, 30 yard plates and some crazy elaborate stages in 3 hours. We can move a 13 member squad though 5 daylight stages in 2 1/2 hours. Our daylight matches go hot at 10 AM and we're usually tore down and ready to leave the range by 1:30 PM (5 stages 2 - 3 squads depending on numbers).

olstyn
02-13-2016, 03:40 AM
thing I see most sorely lacking at USPSA matches is a Loading/Unloading Station.

Agreed, bigtime. Those of us who carry to/from matches have an issue there. Can't do it at a safety table, handling ammo there is a DQ. Can't walk to your first stage loaded, that's a DQ. Lots of places aren't happy with you unloading/loading in the parking lot, but also don't provide an area to do it. What's a guy/girl to do?

Mr_White
02-17-2016, 03:04 PM
Agreed, bigtime. Those of us who carry to/from matches have an issue there. Can't do it at a safety table, handling ammo there is a DQ. Can't walk to your first stage loaded, that's a DQ. Lots of places aren't happy with you unloading/loading in the parking lot, but also don't provide an area to do it. What's a guy/girl to do?

Here are the applicable USPSA rules as far as I know:


2.5 Unloading/Loading Station
2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.
2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

In practice, it mostly comes down to 2.5.2 from what I've seen. There is normally no loading/unloading station. I normally have to go find a match official to ask to unload upon arrival. I make sure to allow time to track them down and take care of it. At local matches where I'm used to the MDs and they are used to me, they mostly send me to an unused bay, or all the way to the edge of the berm to take care of it. All the local MDs are very appreciative. At matches further away, the whole thing takes more time and sometimes it can be hard to find the MD (any other match official I find tends to refer me to the MD.) I've been looked at strangely, like no one has ever asked about it before, but I've never received anything but cooperation from MDs. If I feel like I don't have time to deal with this stuff according to the rules, I take care of my guns before arriving on club property. Once I'm there, I will not handle the guns inside the vehicle.

Peally
02-17-2016, 03:29 PM
I could never wrap my head around why you wouldn't provide a "hot" table. Absolutely drives me nuts.

If you're running a match for God's sake throw a table down somewhere near a berm. Without it you're wasting the RO's time, the shooter's time, and you're forcing people to load/unload in vehicles anyway.

olstyn
02-17-2016, 04:42 PM
I could never wrap my head around why you wouldn't provide a "hot" table. Absolutely drives me nuts.

If you're running a match for God's sake throw a table down somewhere near a berm. Without it you're wasting the RO's time, the shooter's time, and you're forcing people to load/unload in vehicles anyway.


I normally have to go find a match official to ask to unload upon arrival. I make sure to allow time to track them down and take care of it. At local matches where I'm used to the MDs and they are used to me, they mostly send me to an unused bay, or all the way to the edge of the berm to take care of it. All the local MDs are very appreciative. At matches further away, the whole thing takes more time and sometimes it can be hard to find the MD (any other match official I find tends to refer me to the MD.) I've been looked at strangely, like no one has ever asked about it before, but I've never received anything but cooperation from MDs. If I feel like I don't have time to deal with this stuff according to the rules, I take care of my guns before arriving on club property. Once I'm there, I will not handle the guns inside the vehicle.

Yeah, I was aware of that rule previously, but I've been leery of trying to actually make use of it. Your experience is encouraging, so perhaps I'll try it at some point. Most of the time during my summer USPSA league, I'm one of the first to arrive to help with setup, so there's very little in the way of "audience" should I choose to unload either in my vehicle or at its trunk. My solution for loading up has been to simply be the last guy that leaves the bay where I'm picking brass after teardown, and then I can just point at the berm and load up before I leave. Given that it's no longer an active USPSA range at that point, there's no rule violation, at least as far as I can tell.

I think I'll email the MDs and ask them about the possibility of setting up a designated loading/unloading table this summer, as I know I'm not the only one who prefers to arrive and depart "hot," and it'd be nice to not feel like I was sneaking around, even though I'm not, to my knowledge, actually violating any rules.

Events at other venues, though, have been somewhat of a struggle. I've definitely done the "unload in the car on the side of the road 1/2 mile from the gate" thing when I was unsure what I was driving into, as well as unloading in the car in the parking lot. The fact that I haven't (yet) put any holes in anything that didn't need them and that I've only ejected one live round into the hole for my e-brake in several years doesn't make it fun, nor was taking apart my car's center console in order to retrieve said live round fun. Admittedly, I haven't been to matches at a ton of different venues, but I've yet to see a "proper" loading/unloading table.

Peally
02-17-2016, 06:59 PM
It's usually totally fine at a club match since you know everyone, you're often helping out, and it's a relaxed atmosphere, but I will never screw with load/unload at a major. Don't poke the bear :D

It's one of the very few things IDPA got right, hot tables are pretty common at the matches I've been to in that sport (IIRC it may be required per the rules).