How Should Logistics Be Considered?

[GardoneVT]

Something ive rarely seen discussed in the shooting commuinty vis-a-vis gun choice is the importance of logistics?

Even if one picks a quality pistol, stuff happens. Overpressure rounds, squib loads which lead to a follow-on Kb, parts failures, etc. The more one shoots and practices the more likely parts failures will happen. Its not an indictment of one gun company versus another's QC. Stuff just occasionally breaks.

If that happens to a hard to find or discontinued gun (aka "The Hipster Gun") , not only is the end firearm broken but the user is also out all the skill and practice built to that point with that specific gun, which means they must now start over with something different and accept the cost of new holsters and gear accordingly.

Of course, some of us like out of production hardware with unique traits not available on modern arms ( HK P7 fans, raise your hands).

How heavily should logistics and parts supply factor into using a pistol for defensive purposes compared to other factors like ease of use, shooter preference , and so on?

The question came to mind after phone call this morning to S&W inquiring about spare parts for my 4006 and other 3rd Gens.
( In short, slides and frames are gone like Hillary Clinton's IT guy, and smaller parts are *ask and ye might recieve*).

[JHC]

I was enamored of the old Star semiauto 9mms that show up cheap and now avoid them for that reason. I'm pretty hinky about the logistics thing and fret about it perhaps too much. But my battery is loaded with Glocks, one 1911 and a slew of S&W wheelies and this OCD makes it hard to break out for cool obscure options.

[Beat Trash]

I still own the S&W 3913 that was my first off-duty pistol. It's my favorite 3rd gen Smith that they produced. But it lives in a state of retirement because parts are harder and harder to find. So yes, I guess you could say that I factor logistics into my decision making process.

[okie john]

Something ive rarely seen discussed in the shooting commuinty vis-a-vis gun choice is the importance of logistics?

Even if one picks a quality pistol, stuff happens. Overpressure rounds, squib loads which lead to a follow-on Kb, parts failures, etc. The more one shoots and practices the more likely parts failures will happen. Its not an indictment of one gun company versus another's QC. Stuff just occasionally breaks.

If that happens to a hard to find or discontinued gun (aka "The Hipster Gun") , not only is the end firearm broken but the user is also out all the skill and practice built to that point with that specific gun, which means they must now start over with something different and accept the cost of new holsters and gear accordingly.

Of course, some of us like out of production hardware with unique traits not available on modern arms ( HK P7 fans, raise your hands).

How heavily should logistics and parts supply factor into using a pistol for defensive purposes compared to other factors like ease of use, shooter preference , and so on?

The question came to mind after phone call this morning to S&W inquiring about spare parts for my 4006 and other 3rd Gens.
( In short, slides and frames are gone like Hillary Clinton's IT guy, and smaller parts are *ask and ye might recieve*).


You’re asking two questions here.

As for logistics, they’re probably a much better reason to choose one pistol over another than most of the percieved differences in their performance. As a senior Navy SEAL said in a post on another forum that many of us have been following, “With access to weapons and all the ammo you could shoot, there really isn’t an excuse not to become proficient with a Glock or any other issued firearm.” While few of us have unlimited ammo budgets, the concept remains sound—you can master any modern pistol if you just work at it, even if initial runs on the timer are discouraging.

As for skill, I don’t think you lose everything and have to start over from zero if you switch platforms. Just stick with a similar pistol—replace a Gen3 S&W with a 92G, for instance—and you should be fine.

To combine the two questions, it makes sense to avoid getting attached to a platform if you know its maker is about to stop supporting it, or has already done so. Also, instead of going with just one platform, it makes sense to have a backup in the wings, complete with holsters, mags, spares, etc. So if you’re a Glock guy, then have another SFA pistol from a different maker standing by in case your Glocks suddenly become radioactive.

You won’t need to invest as much in the second platform. You can take some time and get your ducks in a row at your leisure once you have the first platform properly supported.


Okie John

[HopetonBrown]

The question didn't come to mind with your Tanfoglio or 10mm?

[GardoneVT]

The question didn't come to mind with your Tanfoglio or 10mm?

In all fairness that pistol is still in production with available parts and spares.Just not for US clients on account of EAAs woeful incompetence.

[HopetonBrown]

What country do you live in?

[GardoneVT]

What country do you live in?

Not California.;)

While Tanfoglio has a factory parts outlet,it's not available to US consumers. That leaves the aftermarket ,which can be satisfactory or a total fail depending on the type and frame size of your Tanfoglio model.

[HopetonBrown]

And so how did that affect you and your special snowflake gun? If parts aren't available in the country you live in, does it matter if they're available elsewhere?

[GJM]

Logistics is certainly a factor in choosing a platform for a large organization. It may or may not be a factor for a personal carry gun. It doesn't mean diddly if you are just purchasing a gun you want.

[GardoneVT]

You’re asking two questions here.

As for logistics, they’re probably a much better reason to choose one pistol over another than most of the percieved differences in their performance. As a senior Navy SEAL said in a post on another forum that many of us have been following, “With access to weapons and all the ammo you could shoot, there really isn’t an excuse not to become proficient with a Glock or any other issued firearm.” While few of us have unlimited ammo budgets, the concept remains sound—you can master any modern pistol if you just work at it, even if initial runs on the timer are discouraging.

As for skill, I don’t think you lose everything and have to start over from zero if you switch platforms. Just stick with a similar pistol—replace a Gen3 S&W with a 92G, for instance—and you should be fine.

To combine the two questions, it makes sense to avoid getting attached to a platform if you know its maker is about to stop supporting it, or has already done so. Also, instead of going with just one platform, it makes sense to have a backup in the wings, complete with holsters, mags, spares, etc. So if you’re a Glock guy, then have another SFA pistol from a different maker standing by in case your Glocks suddenly become radioactive.

You won’t need to invest as much in the second platform. You can take some time and get your ducks in a row at your leisure once you have the first platform properly supported.


Okie John
To use the 3rd Gen -> 92 example.

I could switch from my Beretta to the 4006 . But I'd have to accomplish my reloads differently as the 4006 frame is slightly bigger then the 92. Sights are also different, which alters realized performance.

I probably wouldn't have to start totally from scratch -as I would with a striker fired gun- but there's still a learning curve.

[LSP552]

I personally wouldn't rely on a pistol for serious business that isn't currently factory supported. Does't mean I don't own any or enjoy shooting them on occasion. I just won't carry or seriously train with them.

Unless we are talking about the end of the world, having a spare carry gun and a few parts is about all the logistics you need to be worried about in the US. If it breaks and you can't fix it, ship it to the factory and use your spare.

When it comes to changing guns, it's not like stating over for a skilled shooter.

[farscott]

My "personal logistics" concern is all about consumables, like magazines and holsters. Then I worry about night sights and repair parts. Magazines and holsters are something that do suffer from "wear out" issues. My personal preference is to be able to walk into any gun store worthy of the name and find magazines for my pistol. I also want to be able to call Milt Sparks and order a holster for the pistol without needing to send them one of my guns. If a gun meets both of those, likely there is sufficient manufacturer and aftermarket support for that platform. Once one of those goes away (try and find S&W 3rd Generation or HK P7 magazines), I get concerned.

So I tend to avoid flavors of the month, waiting for widespread adoption before I decide to try a pistol. It took me a lot longer than many to try the P30 and the P320 as I still cannot get magazines locally. But I am tripping over Glock magazines in my local shops. Holsters for the Glock and HK are not an issue for me. Holsters for the P320 are an issue. As such, the P320 fails both of my criteria and is only for fun and familiarization. The P30 is also problematic for me as I have to order magazines online. But Glock stuff is everywhere. I guess that is a clue, as is the fact that I can replace pretty much any (struggle getting the magazine catch spring into the gun) Glock part without help.

[Stephanie B]

I bought a bunch of 3rd Gen magazines not too long ago, after I acquired both a 6906 and a 6946.

[Jeep]

Logistics is certainly a factor in choosing a platform for a large organization. It may or may not be a factor for a personal carry gun. It doesn't mean diddly if you are just purchasing a gun you want.

It depends on how obsessive one is. Personally it drives me crazy to have a gun that needs a part that isn't available.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Bear in mind that the factory isn't the only place to source parts:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/SmithWesson-33495/AutoPistols-42024/40SWSeries-35285/4006-34069.htm

[JAD]

I like my P7 but it's kind of a toy to me for this reason. It is the redhead that I see for a couple of weeks a year before I come to my senses.

[LSP972]

Unless we are talking about the end of the world, having a spare carry gun and a few parts is about all the logistics you need to be worried about in the US. If it breaks and you can't fix it, ship it to the factory and use your spare.


Exactly. Nothing like stating the obvious… but somebody had to do it.;)

.

[LSP972]

... S&W 3913... It's my favorite 3rd gen Smith that they produced. But it lives in a state of retirement because parts are harder and harder to find.

Ditto my 3953. I probably should sell it to somebody looking for a spare; my cup runneth over with HKs and G19s, and I'll likely never shoot that old S&W again. But its still a pretty neat little pistol.

.

[okie john]

To use the 3rd Gen -> 92 example.

I could switch from my Beretta to the 4006 . But I'd have to accomplish my reloads differently as the 4006 frame is slightly bigger then the 92. Sights are also different, which alters realized performance.

I probably wouldn't have to start totally from scratch -as I would with a striker fired gun- but there's still a learning curve.

Not sure how you'd accomplish reloads differently. Fine points aside, you still hit the mag catch, the mag drops free, and you insert a new one, right? It's not like you're going to a cap-and-ball Colt...


Okie John

[okie john]

I personally wouldn't rely on a pistol for serious business that isn't currently factory supported. Does't mean I don't own any or enjoy shooting them on occasion. I just won't carry or seriously train with them.

Unless we are talking about the end of the world, having a spare carry gun and a few parts is about all the logistics you need to be worried about in the US. If it breaks and you can't fix it, ship it to the factory and use your spare.

When it comes to changing guns, it's not like stating over for a skilled shooter.

This.


Okie John

[Clay]

I'm married to Glocks and Beretta 92's for this very reason. I prefer to fix my own guns when I can.

Maybe I have too much tinfoil on my head, but I think every serious pistol shooter ought to have a Glock and a bag of spare parts and mags, just in case.

[L-2]

I tend toward Glocks and have several, along with spare parts. That's one way to address logistics.
In addition, my firearms interest has me owning revolvers, a few SIGs, and a few in the 1911 platform.
What gets tougher, is the time & expense of shooting and practicing with these other platforms.
From there, I'll get to a certain comfort or proficiency level where, at times, I'll tend to carry one or another instead of a Glock.

Carry-wise, I'm then usually carrying a Glock or a 1911 (with a J-frame S&W for a backup).
That's how I handle my logistics: a few brands/types; a few specimens in each brand; lots of time & money into this endeavor.

[psalms144.1]

As others have said, while I have several "special snowflakes" in my safe, none of them get into carry rotation, either because of the expense/difficulty of replacing if they end up in evidence, or because of the difficulty in repairing them should something untoward occur. As much as I love to hate on GLOCKs, they simply can't be beat on logistics. I have a small plastic container with 2-10 of everything except frame/slide/barrel for my G19/26/23(s), the total contents of the box probably cost me the equivalent of one dinner for two and a movie tickets. Another container has 2 spares of all parts (less frame/slide/barrel) for my G30. And, as I've posted before, the ease of repair/replacements on GLOCKs is also second to none, as I've learned through experience during OCONUS travels.

I love my P2000, but parts are definitely harder to come by, and pricier.

[StraitR]

I'm not sure logistics should be considered by everyone, but I can say it's definitely important to some. It's not a matter of zombies or UN invasions for me, I simply prefer to own things that grant me the greatest degree of self sufficiency. I'm generally pragmatic that way about everything, and I view it as an individual personality trait or preference, not a standard.

[psalms144.1]

It's not a matter of zombies...There's only two kinds of people in this world, those with a Zombie plan, and those without. We call the second group "lunch."

[StraitR]

There's only two kinds of people in this world, those with a Zombie plan, and those without. We call the second group "lunch."

You know I live in FL, so we have a Hurricane/Zombie/EMP/22lr shortage/Yankee invasion plan in place, so no free lunch here. ;)

[JAD]

I'm married to Glocks and Beretta 92's for this very reason. I prefer to fix my own guns when I can.

Maybe I have too much tinfoil on my head, but I think every serious pistol shooter ought to have a Glock and a bag of spare parts and mags, just in case.

The point of having a Glock (or a 1911, or both) is that you don't have to inventory spare parts. Something breaks, you use your other generapistol for the two days it takes to get the part in from Amazon.

And the only reason I have thirty Glock mags is because I really hate spending range time reloading.

[LSP552]

I love my SIGs, but if I had to pick one gun to walk the earth with, it would be G17.

[Tamara]

Something ive rarely seen discussed in the shooting commuinty vis-a-vis gun choice is the importance of logistics?

Really?

Welcome to pistol-forum.com, a community of people who actually shoot their handguns...

[olstyn]

There's only two kinds of people in this world, those with a Zombie plan, and those without. We call the second group "lunch."

So it begs the question: what's your Zombie plan? :cool:

[Tamara]

So it begs the question: what's your Zombie plan? :cool:

Kneecapping GardoneVT.

[ReverendMeat]

As much as I love my Walther PPQ, being able to order parts if something breaks, and being able to install the parts myself, are reasons for me to keep Glocks, SIGs, and Berettas around. Between the three I'd lean towards the Beretta because I like guns that work right out of the box.

[GardoneVT]

Kneecapping GardoneVT.

I hear zombies love fat people.

[olstyn]

As much as I love my Walther PPQ, being able to order parts if something breaks, and being able to install the parts myself

If you can operate a roll pin punch, you can probably do most maintenance on a modern Walther. If you ever need a part for your PPQ, call Walther Arms' customer service line. They seem to do a pretty good job taking care of people these days. (They sent me a part for free without even asking for any proof that I actually owned one of their guns.) When calling, it really helps to be able to tell them the exact part number you need, so Google up an exploded diagram and it should be easy to find what you're looking for.

[Chuck Haggard]

You know I live in FL, so we have a Hurricane/Zombie/EMP/22lr shortage/Yankee invasion plan in place, so no free lunch here. ;)

You forgot Sharknado

[StraitR]

You forgot Sharknado

Some things simply cannot be planned for.


ETA: I laughed so hard when I read that Chuck, my wife literally forced me to tell her what was so funny, refusing "ahh, nothing" as an acceptable answer. That made me laugh even more.

[Beat Trash]

Kneecapping GardoneVT.

Just so long as you have a plan...

[psalms144.1]

https://youtu.be/gBRRxXNzkVwHope this works - I wish I could have come up with it myself...

[StraitR]

Hope this works - I wish I could have come up with it myself...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBRRxXNzkVw&feature=youtu.be


FIFY

And that's pretty funny.

[HopetonBrown]

I hear zombies love fat people.

We were all skinny in our 20s. And knew everything.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Here's where I'd start thinking about logistics: if you live somewhere so F'd up that having a dead mag or a broken slide stop on a gun means you need to seriously worry about your survival, you should definitely hire a company like Transworld Logistics to move you and all your stuff the hell out of wherever you are. That's some good logistics involvement.


Otherwise, if you need to factor in logistics to achieve your goals, go crazy. I'm struggling to see how it could be a concern for most people. Just go shoot the guns, and if stuff breaks, fix it.


Buy guns that suit your purposes

Own as many mags, accessories, and spare parts as seems appropriate

Shoot them as much as much as you enjoy or as much as you have to, as applicable to your situation

Done.

[Clobbersaurus]

I didn't start worrying about spare parts until I started IPSC. Until then I just ordered spare parts as I needed them.

Now I have doubles and triples of springs and pins, just in case I break something I need. But I also have doubles and triples of pistols too...

[Tamara]

Something ive rarely seen discussed in the shooting commuinty vis-a-vis gun choice is the importance of logistics?

...as can be seen by looking at the eight pages of results when one plugs "logistics" into the search box at top right.

Here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13346-Pistol-Logistics-sights-amp-such&highlight=logistics)'s some. Here's (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10797-Does-a-HK-P7-PSP-make-sense-as-a-ccw-in-2014&highlight=logistics) more. This (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12742-quot-Lack-of-support-quot-for-a-given-pistol&highlight=logistics) was a good thread. Back in October of 2014, this guy started a thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13878-The-Importance-of-Logistics&highlight=logistics) wondering why it wasn't discussed more.

[GardoneVT]

...as can be seen by looking at the eight pages of results when one plugs "logistics" into the search box at top right.

Here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13346-Pistol-Logistics-sights-amp-such&highlight=logistics)'s some. Here's (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10797-Does-a-HK-P7-PSP-make-sense-as-a-ccw-in-2014&highlight=logistics) more. This (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12742-quot-Lack-of-support-quot-for-a-given-pistol&highlight=logistics) was a good thread. Back in October of 2014, this guy started a thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13878-The-Importance-of-Logistics&highlight=logistics) wondering why it wasn't discussed more.

It may come as some surprise to you that P-F.com does not constitute the entire shooting community.

[HopetonBrown]

It may come as some surprise to you that P-F.com does not constitute the entire shooting community.

It may come as some surprise to you that P-F.com does not care about the entire shooting community.

[JonInWA]

My basic plan is to buy things that are reliable and don't break. That approach supposedly minimizes the amount of spare components I need to have on hand for TEOTWAWKI (although you couldn't tell by the amount of Glock spare parts that I have on hand...despite almost never actually having to resort to USING them...).

Here's the conundrum I think we face to a degree (and who/where we are/what we do can play to the relative significance of the options/conundrum resolution):

Assuming that choices center around contemporary, factory supported guns (i.e, fuggabout 3rd Gen S&Ws, HK P7s, et al), the arguable drama devolves around this script line:

1. Should I get a gun with decent quality components, of known and acceptable reliability/durability/accuracy/ergonomics/expense/component availability and ease of operator maintenance and parts replacement (detailed assembly and reassembly), AKA Glock; or

2. Should I get a gun with exceptionally high quality components that generally/usually/most of the time won't break, but if they do, you'd better have a direct line to higher echelon support for both parts and repair skills/gunsmithing...AKA Heckler & Koch (arguably along with most SIG-Sauers, Berettas, and comparable quality guns once you get past field-stripping).

I guess my answer tends to be somewhat situational-if I needed one gun/platform to cover all potential scenarios (including TEOTWAWKI), where I need a reliable gun that I can effectively work on as needed (and with minimal, if any ancillary tools/supporting machinery required), with relatively small inventories of stockpiled components, it frankly becomes a Glock kind of day (and the availability and low cost of most components is a nice additional fillip).

However, I also appreciate and enjoy the arguably higher quality individual component quality and ergonomics of my HK VP, and to a lesser extent, similarly regarding my Beretta 92, 1911s, Hi Power, and Ruger revolvers. They are all tough, durable firearms, but a higher degree of skill is usually called for regarding most parts replacements beyond field-stripping. (And with most of them, you're really talking about formal armorer training, not just a You Tube video exposure sort of training/familiarization-but I accept that some of you might fairly argue that point with me).

My pat answer to all this is "Glock." But I find myself pretty frequently carrying my HK VP40, due to its exquisite (and instinctively achieved) ergonomics (at least once you take the time and effort needed to discern the right-for-you combination of side panels and back straps).

And there's also my Ruger late-production P89, with which to me has equal-to-HK ergos (particularly with an aftermarket Hogue fingergroove grip) and accuracy (Yeah, mine might well be the statistical aberration here), and incredibly overbuilt components that are noted for virtually nothing breaking....but I guess that's my spin on the JonInWA retro hipster gun...

Best, Jon

[Failure2Stop]

I don't shoot Glocks because I think that they are infallible, unbreakable, or because they are the best shooting pistols in existence.
They are also not the only pistol type that I own.
They are, however, what I primarily train on as they are what I will most likely have at the time of need.
I selected them for that purpose because with nothing other than a simple punch I can replace everything in them, with the understanding that everything is susceptible to breakage, damage, neglect, and life-cycle.
I do not think that there is any other equally sustainable family of pistols that matches their performance.

This does not prevent me from acquiring and enjoying other pistols, but they are either dedicated to specialized applications or fall into the "because I want it" category.

[BigT]

Here's where I'd start thinking about logistics: if you live somewhere so F'd up that having a dead mag or a broken slide stop on a gun means you need to seriously worry about your survival, you should definitely hire a company like Transworld Logistics to move you and all your stuff the hell out of wherever you are. That's some good logistics involvement.


Otherwise, if you need to factor in logistics to achieve your goals, go crazy. I'm struggling to see how it could be a concern for most people. Just go shoot the guns, and if stuff breaks, fix it.


Buy guns that suit your purposes

Own as many mags, accessories, and spare parts as seems appropriate

Shoot them as much as much as you enjoy or as much as you have to, as applicable to your situation

Done.

Where I live a chipped extractor or a broken trigger spring in an HK could leave you without a gun for years. And you may very well need it. Sadly the places you are unlikely to need one don't just let you move in.



Unless youre Syrian of course...

[RevolverRob]

~Snip~

Shoot them as much as much as you enjoy or as much as you have to, as applicable to your situation

Done.

Man that sounds so nice in theory. But you're talking to a guy who has OCD so bad that I think about buying guns that hold cartridges in divisions of ten so I can empty the box of 50 with the same number of magazines every time (seriously). Sometimes logistics isn't about logistics...its about an obsessive need to plan and control everything.


I don't shoot Glocks because I think that they are infallible, unbreakable, or because they are the best shooting pistols in existence.
They are also not the only pistol type that I own.
They are, however, what I primarily train on as they are what I will most likely have at the time of need.
I selected them for that purpose because with nothing other than a simple punch I can replace everything in them, with the understanding that everything is susceptible to breakage, damage, neglect, and life-cycle.
I do not think that there is any other equally sustainable family of pistols that matches their performance.

This does not prevent me from acquiring and enjoying other pistols, but they are either dedicated to specialized applications or fall into the "because I want it" category.

If I only shot Glock 19s as well or better than all the other guns I shoot...



Where I live a chipped extractor or a broken trigger spring in an HK could leave you without a gun for years. And you may very well need it. Sadly the places you are unlikely to need one don't just let you move in.

That gives me nightmares on the spot.

___

Logistics - I hate them and I love them. I love the logic, redundancy, a contingency plan, uniformity across the platform. I am convinced Sig designed the P250/320-series of guns for people like me. I can literally buy a few trigger control groups, a bunch of slides, barrels, and a few different kinds of magazines. I can fit them all nicely into the foam of Pelican cases (black), sorted by caliber, and stacked on top of one another in my safe. Picture that for a second...if you're OCD that sounds fricking awesome. BUT...it's also pretty boring. Someone would open my safe and go..."Wow, you really like black Pelican cases and Sig P250s." At which point I would probably frown and go, "No, they just make a logical sense in terms of logistics. Redundancy, multiple calibers, different sizes...easy to organize, get parts for, fit all the same holsters...etc." And they would nod and pretend like they get it.

It's not the same as when I open my safe and I see the guns I like in there. Organized by make, then caliber - Brownings, Colts, Smith and Wessons, Sigs - AR15s and shotguns of various flavors. And that's the trouble...I am passionate about guns.

And fundamentally the things you are a passionate about are often illogical and thus...it makes me hate the logistics involved. I know I should have the practical, logical, system-based approach and spend all of the remaining money on ammunition and range time. That's what the mature, logical, OCD side of my brain says...but the caveman side says, "Rob like Colts. Colts like Rob. Colts go home with Rob."

-Rob

[Duelist]

I've gotten rid of broken, out-of-production guns that I couldn't get replacement parts for, and replaced them with common, current guns with factory support.

I've never owned a GLOCK.

For ten years, my primary carry gun was a 642. Then I started thinking, maybe 5 rounds in a tiny, challenging (but very reliable) gun isn't the best choice for the only gun I have with me on a daily basis. But it's rugged, reliable, has factory support ...

I came across a 3rd gen S&W, a LNIB 3913, on the shelf next to a SIG 239. Less than half the cost of the 239. I ended up owning two 3913s, one a LadySmith, for less than the cost of a 239, and the second was on the shelf next to a 225A that was going for full MSRP $1150!). I have two of the same out-of-print 3rd gen, and carry one or the other every day. They came with a total of three magazines. I now own eight. Night sights are available (I put night sights on one so far), grips are available (just put a Hogue rubber set on one to try it out), Wolff still makes springs (need to pick up a couple of spare recoil springs). If one breaks or gets taken into an evidence locker, I have a complete spare gun. I live in AZ. It's hot. Stainless and aluminum don't care about sweat.

I'm new here, so I'm not sure if using such guns makes me a special snowflake, but I've wanted a 3913 from the first time I saw one, and so far, I like them well enough that I'll keep them til I can't keep them running.

[rob_s]

I started a thread here quite some time ago on "ubiquitous guns". part of the rationale for choosing them is the availability of parts, pieces, support gear, etc. Want to shoot some weird import gun that barely makes the numbers to qualify for USPSA Production? Great! Forget your holster at home for same gun and arrive at the match with no time to go and get it? You just became a spectator. Chances someone at the match would have had a spare holster you could use if you shot a Glock? Pretty much 100%.

I really couldn't care less if someone can or can't find parts for their snowflake gun, but what never ceases to amaze me is how many people seem shocked when said gun goes to shit and nobody happens to have a pfetzer valve to fix it. It's like the very thought never even crossed their mind.

I had a 2005 GTO when they were new and I had the time to go to the track with it. I asked the guy in the service department one time what would happen if something cracked my windshield, but the car was otherwise driveable. He said "you park it here for God knows how long and you wait while we order a new one from Australia". Now that the car isn't even made anymore, I can't imagine that service time has improved.

[farscott]

I came across a 3rd gen S&W, a LNIB 3913, on the shelf next to a SIG 239. Less than half the cost of the 239. I ended up owning two 3913s, one a LadySmith, for less than the cost of a 239, and the second was on the shelf next to a 225A that was going for full MSRP $1150!). I have two of the same out-of-print 3rd gen, and carry one or the other every day. They came with a total of three magazines. I now own eight. Night sights are available (I put night sights on one so far), grips are available (just put a Hogue rubber set on one to try it out), Wolff still makes springs (need to pick up a couple of spare recoil springs). If one breaks or gets taken into an evidence locker, I have a complete spare gun. I live in AZ. It's hot. Stainless and aluminum don't care about sweat.

I'm new here, so I'm not sure if using such guns makes me a special snowflake, but I've wanted a 3913 from the first time I saw one, and so far, I like them well enough that I'll keep them til I can't keep them running.

I happen to believe that is a pretty good plan if the 3913 meets your needs and because you like the 3913. After all, having a gun and practicing with it is more than ninety percent of the battle. But I believe there are better choices today if one looks at the situation dispassionately. If the gun is truly a tool, there should be reasons that can be articulated to drive a logical decision. But we all know that it is important to practice and if one likes the gun, one is more likely to practice. So a pair of 3913 pistols makes sense for you.

My family has two 3913 and one 3914 pistols as well as 915, 3906, 5906, and 4046 pistols as I bought my first 3913 in 1991. One, the 3914, of the pistols is pretty much a spare parts collection because the frame has a crack. Yes, it could be drilled, but I just retired the gun. I am also sure that if I sent it to S&W that I would be offered an M&P to replace it even though S&W is still making 3rd Generation pistols for LE contracts. In its day, the 3913 was one of the best CCW pistols available. Today, it has been surpassed because other pistols offer the ability to attach lights, offer the ability to modify the grip size to the shooter's preference, have a much wider selection of sight options, allow one to easily get spare magazines, and because the manufacturer still supports them. For that reason, I would not recommend a new shooter today START with the S&W 3913, but that does not mean that one who has already invested in the platform in terms of hardware and practice (SW) should abandon the platform if it meets their needs and wants.

My wife decided she liked the P30. To have a common platform, I went along with her. If HK supports the platform for another decade, it is likely the last platform I will adopt as I will not be up to start over with the investment that a new platform requires in terms of expenses (multiple holsters, extra magazines, magazine carriers, the right sights for our needs, etc.) and practice.

[Hambo]

Here's how my logistics worked out. The firing pin in my old Beretta broke, but I didn't notice because it kept shooting. When I finally saw noticed the FP sticking out of the breech face with the slide locked, I shot it some more and ordered a new FP. I've got a few spare springs and parts, but with a couple extra pistols it wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to wait for something.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Buy guns that suit your purposes

Own as many mags, accessories, and spare parts as seems appropriate

Shoot them as much as much as you enjoy or as much as you have to, as applicable to your situation

Done.


Where I live a chipped extractor or a broken trigger spring in an HK could leave you without a gun for years. And you may very well need it. Sadly the places you are unlikely to need one don't just let you move in.



Unless youre Syrian of course...


Man that sounds so nice in theory. But you're talking to a guy who has OCD so bad that I think about buying guns that hold cartridges in divisions of ten so I can empty the box of 50 with the same number of magazines every time (seriously). Sometimes logistics isn't about logistics...its about an obsessive need to plan and control everything.



-Rob

I dunno guys...do what you gotta do, to get what you gotta get.

I accept that this varies according to situation but I just find the cloaking of what to me seems like an extremely obvious set of principles in this tactical language of logistics to be kind of homosex.

If you shoot something weird, or live somewhere weird, or shoot in weird amounts, or you are just plain weird, well, things could get weird. But you already know that, so...deal and move on.

You know what this reminds me of? It's like the "BMI isn't accurate because it says Stallone is obese" argument.

If BMI doesn't apply to you, you know it, because you put in a ton of work to get there, so don't worry about it. If you didn't, or you're not some kind of obvious genetic freak, you just want to pretend it doesn't apply to you because if does, you're fat.

If don't know whether or not you're an outlier, you're not an outlier.

If you're an outlier, you either know it and you're already dealing with the issues it generates because you already know your favourite gun eats trigger return springs, or you are an idiot who's shooting some freak gun in huge quantities thinking it won't break, in which case I pretty much just hope you get shot because the world's got too many idiots already.

[RevolverRob]

I dunno guys...do what you gotta do, to get what you gotta get.

I accept that this varies according to situation but I just find the cloaking of what to me seems like an extremely obvious set of principles in this tactical language of logistics to be kind of homosex.

If you shoot something weird, or live somewhere weird, or shoot in weird amounts, or you are just plain weird, well, things could get weird. But you already know that, so...deal and move on.

You know what this reminds me of? It's like the "BMI isn't accurate because it says Stallone is obese" argument.

If BMI doesn't apply to you, you know it, because you put in a ton of work to get there, so don't worry about it. If you didn't, or you're not some kind of obvious genetic freak, you just want to pretend it doesn't apply to you because if does, you're fat.

If don't know whether or not you're an outlier, you're not an outlier.

If you're an outlier, you either know it and you're already dealing with the issues it generates because you already know your favourite gun eats trigger return springs, or you are an idiot who's shooting some freak gun in huge quantities thinking it won't break, in which case I pretty much just hope you get shot because the world's got too many idiots already.

Oh man, I am with you. Like I said, my OCD wants me to have all of the perfect logistics worked out. I also have an expensive psychiatrist, good meds, and some self-control. So you open my safe and it's filled with the random stuff - I like - That doesn't make sense in a zombie apocalypse/post-collapse world. I'm okay with that...those are fiction stories for me (literally). If a world exists where I can't have zoloft and Starbucks...I don't want to be in it. Ditto a world where I can't get parts for a 1911 or just go to the store and buy a new gun as necessary.

-Rob

[Chuck Haggard]

I came across a 3rd gen S&W,........................ Stainless and aluminum don't care about sweat.



That's not entirely true, and over the 20ish years the troops at my old job carried 3rd gen S&W 9mms I got to see more than a few guns with some remarkable corrosion due to sweat and a modicum of neglect.

[David S.]

I have never experienced or felt the need for locally available parts and accessories.

If spare parts and accessories are available somewhere online, I'm good with that.

[Duelist]

That's not entirely true, and over the 20ish years the troops at my old job carried 3rd gen S&W 9mms I got to see more than a few guns with some remarkable corrosion due to sweat and a modicum of neglect.

Interesting. I've had my 642 for 12 years now. Finish is pretty much worn off the aluminum, steel has polished spots, but no corrosion. What areas do I need to be concerned about/pay extra attention to? Neither of these guns is going to be run through a 2000 round test. They get disassembled, inspected, and cleaned & lubed regularly.

[StraitR]

Interesting. I've had my 642 for 12 years now. Finish is pretty much worn off the aluminum, steel has polished spots, but no corrosion. What areas do I need to be concerned about/pay extra attention to? Neither of these guns is going to be run through a 2000 round test. They get disassembled, inspected, and cleaned & lubed regularly.

It sounds sexy. We're going to require pics.

[PPGMD]

You know I live in FL, so we have a Hurricane/Zombie/EMP/22lr shortage/Yankee invasion plan in place, so no free lunch here. ;)

Hate to break it to you, the Yankees have already invaded.

[StraitR]

Hate to break it to you, the Yankees have already invaded.

Truth. :(

[Duelist]

5910


It sounds sexy. We're going to require pics.

I don't know if it's "sexy," but here's a pic of it with a ten shot, ten yard target from last year. Draw from concealment, fire five, reload, fire five.

[JohnK]

To the OP: I would stop worrying about what the gun community is doing and start worrying about your own tools and how your skill is with them. If something wears out, and you perfected training and technique - good training and good technique - I would say that's a job well done. Replace whatever is busted or worn out, even if it is a whole gun. The skills will carry over for the most part. You will not be starting fromy scratch. If there is one thing we have seen on this forum and Todd's blog, it's that even a gun that gets "some" care throughout its service life - it takes a hell of a lot of abuse to deadline it completely. The other alternative is to stop fretting about whether or not YOU can get support for something, and just acquire something where you don't have that concern.

[LSP972]

The other alternative is to stop fretting about whether or not YOU can get support for something, and just acquire something where you don't have that concern.

And acquire more than one of your preferred "platform".

It never ceases to amaze me how a reasonably knowledgeable "gun guy" will look at me like I'm nuts when I suggest he buy a duplicate or two of his favorite carry piece. Of course, many of these guys don't have a favorite, but they do have several different types and a "carry rotation".

That kind of derp I don't even try to correct.

.

[rob_s]

We were all skinny in our 20s. And knew everything.

Some of us are still skinny in our 40s. And know more.

[JohnK]

And acquire more than one of your preferred "platform".

Exactly. That's what I was getting at. Minimally, I have two of each pistol, with my true passion being with 1911s, and I have 6 of those. Plenty of gear to back everything up. If something breaks or wears out, it gets tossed in the garbage. Easy peasy.

[Failure2Stop]

Some of us are still skinny in our 40s. And know more.

The older I get the better I was.

[Chuck Haggard]

Interesting. I've had my 642 for 12 years now. Finish is pretty much worn off the aluminum, steel has polished spots, but no corrosion. What areas do I need to be concerned about/pay extra attention to? Neither of these guns is going to be run through a 2000 round test. They get disassembled, inspected, and cleaned & lubed regularly.

Typically under the grips was the worst area, sweat would get in there and eat at the metal.

[Duelist]

Typically under the grips was the worst area, sweat would get in there and eat at the metal.

Thank you.

[LSP972]

The anodized clear coat on the J frame "white guns" (natural metal; i.e., non-colored, like the black anodized PD models), which, IIRC, first appeared on the early-90s vintage M-642 when it was introduced, has had a spotty record… no pun intended. Well, maybe a little bit…:D

There was a period in the early 2000s where these guns were shedding their clear coat faster than a molting snake. Major corrosion developed, all kinds of bad juju. S&W made it good to those who bitched and sent their gats back to Springfield, but many did not avail themselves of this and you'll run across those revolvers from time to time.

LSP552 and I bought our 642s in 1992 or so, and carried them daily as BUGs or off-duty "onlies". We spent many hot, sweaty days on the range with them in a pocket; they got drenched with sweat. Of course, we would clean them from time to time, especially under the stocks as Chuck noted. Aside from me being a dumbshit and dropping mine in the locker room once, resulting in a nice gouge on the upper curve of the backstrap, mine still has no surface blemishes to speak of. I think Ken's is the same. BTW, mine has been living in #1 daughter's purse for the past seven years or so. I check it every month or so, clearing out the purse litter/crud that finds its way into every nook and cranny. But the finish is still intact, even around that afore-mentioned gouge.

IOW, done right, the clear anodizing on a natural aluminum frame does a pretty good job of protecting same… if the formulation/application is right. But my point here is, S&W may still honor that alleged lifetime warranty. If you've got a 642 that seems to be eating itself (like the one in the above photo), call them and- nicely- ask for a warranty refinish. The worst they can say is no.

.

[Duelist]

Mine was purchased new in Jan 2004, test fired in August 2003. Seems to fall in that era you speak of. Thank you for the suggestion. I will call them next week.

[Tamara]

That's not entirely true, and over the 20ish years the troops at my old job carried 3rd gen S&W 9mms I got to see more than a few guns with some remarkable corrosion due to sweat and a modicum of neglect.

First gun shop I worked in was a former Western Auto. Tin roof, two glass walls, and the A/C had gone toes-up, which made Georgia summers interesting. In my "carry rotation" at the time was a 4006, and I remember the frontstrap and frame tang freckled up nicely from my constantly touching it with sweaty paws. :o

[Tamara]

There was a period in the early 2000s where these guns were shedding their clear coat faster than a molting snake. Major corrosion developed, all kinds of bad juju. S&W made it good to those who bitched and sent their gats back to Springfield, but many did not avail themselves of this and you'll run across those revolvers from time to time.

Oh, lordy, the wailing and gnashing of teeth on the revolver subforum at TFL back then! :eek:

[Lomshek]

Interesting. I've had my 642 for 12 years now. Finish is pretty much worn off the aluminum, steel has polished spots, but no corrosion. What areas do I need to be concerned about/pay extra attention to? Neither of these guns is going to be run through a 2000 round test. They get disassembled, inspected, and cleaned & lubed regularly.

Routine disassembly, cleaning and lubing helps to eliminate that problem so you'll probably be fine.

I have a customer (bicycle shop owner) whose high end road bike needs new handlebars because sweat has eaten completely through the handlebars at the brake lever under the bar tape. These are quality hard anodized (AR receiver type anodizing) handlebars that have been dissolved by trapped sweat over the years.

As Chuck says I could easily see that being an issue under grip panels where humidity and fresh sweat keeps the corrosion process going.

[JAD]

Sweat is interesting. In the work I've done on bodyworn medical devices, like cochlear implant accessories, it was the bitchkitty. Creeps worse than it should, corrodes what it shouldn't, acts as a wonderful catalyst for galvanic corrosion. Worst, it's really hard to simulate in the lab. Salt spray and even salt/oil mixtures are way off. And people have violently different sweat from each other, and day to day.

[LSP552]

The anodized clear coat on the J frame "white guns" (natural metal; i.e., non-colored, like the black anodized PD models), which, IIRC, first appeared on the early-90s vintage M-642 when it was introduced, has had a spotty record… no pun intended. Well, maybe a little bit…:D

There was a period in the early 2000s where these guns were shedding their clear coat faster than a molting snake. Major corrosion developed, all kinds of bad juju. S&W made it good to those who bitched and sent their gats back to Springfield, but many did not avail themselves of this and you'll run across those revolvers from time to time.

LSP552 and I bought our 642s in 1992 or so, and carried them daily as BUGs or off-duty "onlies". We spent many hot, sweaty days on the range with them in a pocket; they got drenched with sweat. Of course, we would clean them from time to time, especially under the stocks as Chuck noted. Aside from me being a dumbshit and dropping mine in the locker room once, resulting in a nice gouge on the upper curve of the backstrap, mine still has no surface blemishes to speak of. I think Ken's is the same. BTW, mine has been living in #1 daughter's purse for the past seven years or so. I check it every month or so, clearing out the purse litter/crud that finds its way into every nook and cranny. But the finish is still intact, even around that afore-mentioned gouge.

.

Mine has developed a few spots where the finish has worn through, mostly due to the Kramer Pocket Holster. It's lives in the wife's BMW glove box now and I have a newer 442 and G42 sharing the pocket/ankle thing.