History of Defensive Handgun Techniques

[pax]

If you were embarking today on a study of the history of handgun shooting skills and training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people, what resources would you seek out to begin with?

Which books would you recommend, and in what order?

What other materials (websites, DVDs, magazines, audio files) might prove helpful?

pax,

Kathy

[okie john]

If we separate out military and police training, then civilian use of the handgun was pretty much an ad hoc business based on theory and supposition until Jeff Cooper founded the American Pistol Institute (often referred to as API or Gunsite) in 1976.

Before WWII, Ed McGivern (http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Fancy-Revolver-Shooting-McGivern/dp/0832905577), Elmer Keith (http://www.amazon.com/Sixguns-Keith-Standard-Reference-Illustrated/dp/1614272824), and a few others wrote intelligently about using handguns at speed and under stress, but most of them were talking theory—few had been in actual gunfights.

Sykes and Fairbairn published with a method of sorts in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Live-With-One-Hand/dp/1581606788) based on their experience with the Shanghai Municipal Police before WWII. Some of that they talk about makes sense, but most has been eclipsed by a more modern understanding.

After WWII, writers like Bill Jordan (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-Winner-William-Jordan/dp/0936279095) and Skeeter Skelton (tons of articles and columns in Shooting Times in the 70's and 80's) wrote at length about specific techniques, but neither man developed a complete method for gunfighting. Massad Ayoob (http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/product-reviews/0936279001) tried couple of times, but he was never really taken seriously for a number of reasons.

The Modern Technique of the Pistol (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Technique-Pistol-Gregory-Morrison/dp/0962134236) came out of API in 1991. It was essentially Jeff Cooper’s attempt to preserve his method in hopes of convincing everyone that he had solved the problem and stopping them from challenging or improving upon his work. Before him, pretty much everything taught formally in the US came from the NRA, who based their TTPs on law-enforcement methods, such as the FBI reload, that were often based more on safe range procedure for poorly-trained shooters than on tactical soundness.

Then three developments—action shooting, the internet and the surveillance video—changed everything.

Action shooting let shooters try their hands at the actual skills they might need in a fight. People in Tier I military units got a lot of their training from high-level competitive shooters, and those competitions drove a lot of modifications to the handguns you can buy over the counter today.

The internet let shooters compare notes more easily. Before the internet, we read The American Rifleman, Guns & Ammo, or Shooting Times, plus the handful of books that were occasionally published on the subject. If you had questions, then you wrote a letter to the editors and if they liked your question, it might have been published a year or so later, along with a half-assed answer that had been edited to work for a mass audience and not to offend advertisers. Cooper, Keith, and others answered letters written directly to them, but their output was limited. With the internet, shooters can find and interact with very experienced gunfighters in real time--and this forum is probably the best place for that to happen.

To my knowledge, Ken Hackathorn was the first to point out how much surveillance video has changed our understanding of gunfights, because it lets us study what people actually do in fights without having to rely on post-event reports and testimony. So add a few thousand YouTube videos to a couple of good forums, and that’s pretty much the state of the art today.

And there are two other things that influence the state of affairs today, the influence of which has yet to be fully seen. The first is the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994, which had the unintended consequence of helping the NRA put a ton of pro-gun candidates into mayor's offices, state legislatures, judge's chambers, and other public offices where they could make it possible for so many of us to carry concealed weapons today. That drives the market for most civilian instruction in the handgun.

The other is the Global War on Terror. Many of its veterans have found employment imparting to the rest of us skills and the mindset that they developed in combat. Every one of them seems to have his or her own method, techniques, and opinions, which range from the superb to the idiotic.


Okie John

[Tamara]

Tagging to follow...

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/random-ness/images/3/34/Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif/revision/latest?cb=20120402225423

[frankepc]

Add a few hundred more pages and you've got the history of modern gun fighting post JC (Jeff Cooper).

[Andrew E]

What Tam said.

[BN]

okie john has it correct.

[Tamara]

Then three developments—action shooting, the internet and the surveillance video—changed everything.

Action shooting let shooters try their hands at the actual skills they might need in a fight. People in Tier I military units got a lot of their training from high-level competitive shooters, and those competitions drove a lot of modifications to the handguns you can buy over the counter today.

...

To my knowledge, Ken Hackathorn was the first to point out how much surveillance video has changed our understanding of gunfights, because it lets us study what people actually do in fights without having to rely on post-event reports and testimony. So add a few thousand YouTube videos to a couple of good forums, and that’s pretty much the state of the art today.

Since you put these two things in one sentence... How many surveillance videos show gunfights with people who regularly engage in action shooting competition?

[serialsolver]

I would add the books,

Shooting by J. Henry Fitzgerald

Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights by Jim Cirillo

Jeff Cooper's books

Principles of personal defense

Fighting Handguns

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[okie john]

Since you put these two things in one sentence... How many surveillance videos show gunfights with people who regularly engage in action shooting competition?

I have no idea.


Okie John

[David S.]

Kathy. I miss having you around here. :)

Thatisall.

[ST911]

To my knowledge, Ken Hackathorn was the first to point out how much surveillance video has changed our understanding of gunfights, because it lets us study what people actually do in fights without having to rely on post-event reports and testimony. So add a few thousand YouTube videos to a couple of good forums, and that’s pretty much the state of the art today.

Ken had a number of good historical tidbits (mil, Cooper/API, competition, etc) in his podcast interview with Mike Seeklander: http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/ken

[Al T.]

Damn okie john, you hit that one out of the park. I've been very interested in defensive shooting for nearly 40 years and find nothing to disagree with.


history of handgun shooting skills and training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people

I think it was Tom Givens who pointed out that an awful lot of what we "knew" in my early years was driven by Hollywood silliness. So, IMHO, from a historical point of view, Hollywood "trained" quite a few folks. Something to think about*.



* Col. Cooper got his start in competitive shooting at a "leather slap" competition, which was pretty much folks copying Cowboy movie TTPs.

[NETim]

Ken had a number of good historical tidbits (mil, Cooper/API, competition, etc) in his podcast interview with Mike Seeklander: Mike Seeklander's podcast interview of Ken Hackathorn had some good historical information in it: http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/ken

That was an extraordinarily fantastic listen IMHO.

[rob_s]

Since you put these two things in one sentence... How many surveillance videos show gunfights with people who regularly engage in action shooting competition?

Hell, I'm still looking for ANY documentation of a competition shooter getting "killed in the streets" because of some bad habit he picked up in competition. To date, all I've seen is reaching, anecdotes, and flat out lies and campfire stories.

[rob_s]

And there are two other things that influence the state of affairs today, the influence of which has yet to be fully seen. The first is the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994, which had the unintended consequence of helping the NRA put a ton of pro-gun candidates into mayor's offices, state legislatures, judge's chambers, and other public offices where they could make it possible for so many of us to carry concealed weapons today. That drives the market for most civilian instruction in the handgun.


there's something else the AWB did, of which we ARE seeing the effects, and that was to create the forbidden fruit syndrome. Once something was taken away, and then given back, the response was "I better get it while I can!" The guy that buys the AR today, visits a firearm forum tomorrow, attends a match next week, and wants training next month.

[Failure2Stop]

Hell, I'm still looking for ANY documentation of a competition shooter getting "killed in the streets" because of some bad habit he picked up in competition. To date, all I've seen is reaching, anecdotes, and flat out lies and campfire stories.

I was shooting a GSSF match last Saturday (USPSA to get laid, GSSF to get paid) and during the plates stage, the assistant RO (cop) said to me,
"I see that you're press-checking after a reload. A guy on my department that was in a shootout did that in the middle of the gunfight. Not a good idea."

Uh...yeah...not my problem.
Thanks for the free guns though.

[rob_s]

I was shooting a GSSF match last Saturday (USPSA to get laid, GSSF to get paid) and during the plates stage, the assistant RO (cop) said to me,
"I see that you're press-checking after a reload. A guy on my department that was in a shootout did that in the middle of the gunfight. Not a good idea."


It seems like just about every cop has some story like that they heard in the academy or in a briefing room in 1975.

[Chance]

I swear I've seen screen shots of an old manual, I want to say it was Prussian, demonstrating shooting techniques with a handgun. I can't find it right now, and it's driving me nuts.

Here's two blog (http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2011/08/shooting-positions.html) posts (http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/03/handgun-shooting-positions-one-handed.html) that might be helpful, although they're not exactly what you're looking for. And here is a video from American Handgunner with Weaver talking about how his shooting stance evolved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFq5Qkedl3Q



ETA: This wasn't what I was trying to find, but it does have some historical depictions of "hand fire-arms". Maybe worth a look (https://archive.org/stream/gunitsdevelopmen00greerich#page/44/mode/2up). Granted, this is more offensive techniques of handguns, but hey, history.

5796

Also, thanks for destroying my productivity for the day.

[Al T.]

How many surveillance videos show gunfights with people who regularly engage in action shooting competition?

Thought about this over lunch and realized that some decent percent of police compete in PPC. Wonder if anyone has checked police gunfight results versus competition standing....

http://ppc.nra.org/ppc.aspx

[okie john]

5796

Avatar material, sir.


Okie John

[Tamara]

I have no idea.


Okie John

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

[HCM]

Thought about this over lunch and realized that some decent percent of police compete in PPC. Wonder if anyone has checked police gunfight results versus competition standing....

http://ppc.nra.org/ppc.aspx

Umm a decent percentage of police used to compete in PPC, 20 or 30 years ago. I know way more cops who shoot IDPA, USPSA etc than PPC. In fact the NRA has started a 3 gun ish / USPSA ish competition called TPC (Tactical Police Competition) due to the waning interest in PPC.

[BehindBlueI's]

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

People react differently based on any number of factors. I know what I do under extreme stress but can only give you possibilities for what you will do. I suffer from auditory exclusion, I hunch my head and shoulders, etc. My initial response is to charge the threat if I can see it (which I had to unlearn because it's often stupid) and to duck and cover if I can't. I learned that from memories, but also recordings from a few incidents. As an example, a recording showed me giving verbal commands when I did not recall doing so and could not hear myself doing so. Auto-pilot response ingrained into me by training.

What surveillance video and dash cam video has been great for, IMO, is studying pre-attack indicators and seeing what does and doesn't work. Learning from other people's mistakes hurts less. Learning to see an attack coming and neutralize it...plus being able to articulate why you knew it was coming is an immensely helpful skill that seems overlooked in the civilian carry market.

[serialsolver]

Jim Cirillo shot in a lot of competitions. It seemed to help him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Al T.]

police used to compete in PPC


Ah. May be a regional thing then, we have a fairly active bunch of the local officers shooting PPC.

[HCM]

Ah. May be a regional thing then, we have a fairly active bunch of the local officers shooting PPC.

Could be. The last two PPC shooters in my office retired a couple years ago. I know two or three guys across the country my age who still shoot PPC, but all are over 40 and have 20 or more years in service. I know plenty of cops who are shooters including most of the firearms instructors for the local PD, sheriffs department, and other federal agencies around here. Many of them shoot competitions ranging from IDPA and USPSA to precision rifle but I don't know any who shoot PPC.

[Tamara]

People react differently based on any number of factors. I know what I do under extreme stress but can only give you possibilities for what you will do. I suffer from auditory exclusion, I hunch my head and shoulders, etc. My initial response is to charge the threat if I can see it (which I had to unlearn because it's often stupid) and to duck and cover if I can't.

My point is that whole schools of "teaching gunfighting" have sprung up based on watching grainy B&W footage of The Simpsons' Apu backpedaling wildly while shooting a pistol one-handed and covering his eyes with his other flipper because obviously that's what we'll "naturally" do. Why is that what we'll "naturally" do? Well, because we saw this guy do it. Was he ever trained, or did he ever practice, to do anything else? *Shrug* Who knows? It's what he "naturally" did.

Now, as far as all the other stuff about hunching and auditory exclusion, that may well be natural, but that's not necessarily what I'm referring to.

There was a car chase in Lafayette not too many years back that ended with a stabbing and two officers "naturally" doing two different things with their pistols.

[BehindBlueI's]

My point is that whole schools of "teaching gunfighting" have sprung up based on watching grainy B&W footage of The Simpsons' Apu backpedaling wildly while shooting a pistol one-handed and covering his eyes with his other flipper because obviously that's what we'll "naturally" do. Why is that what we'll "naturally" do? Well, because we saw this guy do it. Was he ever trained, or did he ever practice, to do anything else? *Shrug* Who knows? It's what he "naturally" did.

Now, as far as all the other stuff about hunching and auditory exclusion, that may well be natural, but that's not necessarily what I'm referring to.

There was a car chase in Lafayette not too many years back that ended with a stabbing and two officers "naturally" doing two different things with their pistols.

I'll take your word on the schools. I'm honestly not that up on them. I am in complete agreement with the futility of "naturalness" based on video, though, which was what I was trying to get across. Sometimes I see something shiny and go off the tracks when a "yup" would probably have worked. :D

[Tamara]

I'll take your word on the schools. I'm honestly not that up on them. I am in complete agreement with the futility of "naturalness" based on video, though, which was what I was trying to get across. Sometimes I see something shiny and go off the tracks when a "yup" would probably have worked. :D

*goes back and rereads*

Ah. Now I'm tracking you. :)

[okie john]

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

Mr. Hackathorn mentioned his study of surveillance video to explain the thinking behind the drills he had us shoot in class—multiple targets, multiple shots, short par times, very short range, movement, etc. He had us shoot WHO and SHO to simulate one hand being injured or occupied with something worthwhile, like carrying a child or leading a non-combatant out of harm’s way, not because we’d default to that.

Not sure how other folks use it, but if it’s as you describe, then I share your objections.


Okie John

[HopetonBrown]

I was shooting a GSSF match last Saturday (USPSA to get laid, GSSF to get paid) and during the plates stage, the assistant RO (cop) said to me,
"I see that you're press-checking after a reload. A guy on my department that was in a shootout did that in the middle of the gunfight. Not a good idea."

Uh...yeah...not my problem.
Thanks for the free guns though.
A press check after a reload seems like it would slow reload times a whole lot.

[Failure2Stop]

A press check after a reload seems like it would slow reload times a whole lot.
Yup.
But all of that is administrative in GSSF.

[11B10]

OK, please forgive my ignorance here - can someone please tell me why - what are the "several reasons Massad Ayoob wasn't/isn't taken seriously?"

[Tamara]

OK, please forgive my ignorance here - can someone please tell me why - what are the "several reasons Massad Ayoob wasn't/isn't taken seriously?"

Kinda curious myself. I mean, Mas can shoot.

[JAD]

Kinda curious myself. I mean, Mas can shoot.

And he's in this forum.

Orville Redenbacher called, he said he's on his way over.

[BehindBlueI's]

OK, please forgive my ignorance here - can someone please tell me why - what are the "several reasons Massad Ayoob wasn't/isn't taken seriously?"

I claim no expertise at all, but I still shoot a revolver like Ayoob says to shoot a revolver. Well, I hold it like he says to hold it. The idea is the same, the results probably aren't. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

Thought about this over lunch and realized that some decent percent of police compete in PPC. Wonder if anyone has checked police gunfight results versus competition standing....

http://ppc.nra.org/ppc.aspx

Don't know of any video, but Jim Cirillo was big into PPC before his pistol fights, and he did rather well. Just one example.

[RJ]

Interesting thread, I am learning a lot.

Only thing I can add is that, when I started shooting in 2013, I came across this 1904 book on Shooting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AQM9SK0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o06_

It is still available for free on Amazon Prime on Kindle. Pretty interesting stuff.

5823

[Al T.]

OK, please forgive my ignorance here - can someone please tell me why - what are the "several reasons Massad Ayoob wasn't/isn't taken seriously?"

Think it was the context of the era (late 70's to '90's) and that Mas wasn't a "flavor of the week" guy in the run up to where we are now (thinking of Costa, etc). Please note that I do know both Mas and Gail and am a grad of MAG 40.

When Col. Cooper started preaching to the masses, his sermons were very much derived from his Marine background, old West thoughts on fighting with a gun and a general Warrior mindset. Lots of the folks who grew from that environment (Taylor, Clint Smith etc.) echoed that mindset in many ways. Mas on the other paw, came out of the northeast US where he observed a different dynamic than Col. Cooper. As we've noted many times, the Venn diagram of .mil shootings, LEO shootings and us cake eating civilian shootings tends to touch, but does not really overlap. I think Mas was pretty much the first to realize this and it was not popular in those days. Add to that that Mas didn't have an exotic home range with a catchy name (Gunsite/Thunder Ranch/Front Site) and instead traveled the erf teaching that solving the first problem (your fight) did not mean you could fire up a Cohiba while sipping a Jack and water, instead you needed to look at solving the next problem, I.E., interfacing with the law in all it's gritty details. Again, in the time frame, this was contrary to what Joe Sixpack expected, based (IMHO) on his Hollywood-driven gunfighting expectations.

I do note that over the past ten or twelve years, Mas has grown in popularity as it seems folks are paying more attention to the whole spectrum of an armed encounter. Here in SC, we've seen Mas hosted, Andrew Branca hosted, a new training facility that's local and hosting good trainers, so I think that tide has turned.

[JSGlock34]

I remembered we had discussed this a few years back...

History of pistol shooting techniques (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4323-History-of-pistol-shooting-techniques)thread

[Kyle Reese]

I was shooting a GSSF match last Saturday (USPSA to get laid, GSSF to get paid) and during the plates stage, the assistant RO (cop) said to me,
"I see that you're press-checking after a reload. A guy on my department that was in a shootout did that in the middle of the gunfight. Not a good idea."

Uh...yeah...not my problem.
Thanks for the free guns though.

I heard that point shooting is the way to go. My cousin's brother in law told me that he dispatched three NVA sappers at 100 yards with a 1911 doing that back in 1971. *joking*

[emoji41]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

Triggernometry, several of Askins books are also good.

I have also found that in my long term study of this subject for the class I am doing at Tom's, that I had to read accounts of really good folks and pull some minutia from them. Sights and the ability to see them has been an interesting means of watching technique develop. Frank Hamer had exceptional vision and experience....heavy sight user,,even with the poor sights of the day. Jelly Bryce could visually see his rounds in flight (freakish vision). This obviously led to his non sighted technique. What Jack Weaver did was not so much a change in body position or stance, but his ability to bring his sights to the eye quickly. He was shooting an adjustable sighted S&W revolver against 1911's and SAA's with crappy small sights. Note the trend afterwards of putting k frame sights on 1911's. Today, sights are excellent and anyone good is using them.

If we look at the medium frame revolvers of the 20's....you could not see the sights until cocked..thus, the next 70 years saw "point shooting" at close range in DA, because "that is how we always did it"....even though the equipment changed significantly.

Kathy, this is a deep subject I have spent my adult life studying academically. If you want to spend some time at Tom's place in March or talk before then, let me know.

[TDA]

If you were embarking today on a study of the history of handgun shooting skills and training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people, what resources would you seek out to begin with?

Which books would you recommend, and in what order?

What other materials (websites, DVDs, magazines, audio files) might prove helpful?

pax,

Kathy

I am definitely swamped if we don't revisit the objective and clarify a little. The list of what I would read if I wanted to apply it directly to development of my personal shooting/not being anywhere around for the shooting skills is a fraction of all the stuff I've read.

[Dagga Boy]

I pulled this quote from Todd G from the older thread. Lots of good info there....and bad. Derailed like this one will likely do as well.

"John raises two great points that are often glossed over by the "just do it however you want until you get awesome" crowd.

First, blindly following a self-taught phenom doesn't necessarily mean it will work as well for you.

Second, the evolution of good technique has a component of trainability to it. An awesome technique that requires five years of near daily effort is great for the fraction of a percent who can dedicate their time like that. But for most people, effort and retention are issues."

Several tidbits of what I consider critical. Is it proven to work? Have the people teaching it done it, and hopefully have numerous experiences to verify training versus anomaly. Is it trainable to masses? Have those masses had the same successes as those teaching the process? That is what I look to to see where we have successes in the history of defensive (and from an LE standpoint, offensive as well) handgun techniques, and where have failures. We also have theory that much of this starts with and can take decades to play out as workable or not. We also have equipment issues that will both limit training, guide training, and change or improve training. All considerations.

[11B10]

Think it was the context of the era (late 70's to '90's) and that Mas wasn't a "flavor of the week" guy in the run up to where we are now (thinking of Costa, etc). Please note that I do know both Mas and Gail and am a grad of MAG 40.

When Col. Cooper started preaching to the masses, his sermons were very much derived from his Marine background, old West thoughts on fighting with a gun and a general Warrior mindset. Lots of the folks who grew from that environment (Taylor, Clint Smith etc.) echoed that mindset in many ways. Mas on the other paw, came out of the northeast US where he observed a different dynamic than Col. Cooper. As we've noted many times, the Venn diagram of .mil shootings, LEO shootings and us cake eating civilian shootings tends to touch, but does not really overlap. I think Mas was pretty much the first to realize this and it was not popular in those days. Add to that that Mas didn't have an exotic home range with a catchy name (Gunsite/Thunder Ranch/Front Site) and instead traveled the erf teaching that solving the first problem (your fight) did not mean you could fire up a Cohiba while sipping a Jack and water, instead you needed to look at solving the next problem, I.E., interfacing with the law in all it's gritty details. Again, in the time frame, this was contrary to what Joe Sixpack expected, based (IMHO) on his Hollywood-driven gunfighting expectations.

I do note that over the past ten or twelve years, Mas has grown in popularity as it seems folks are paying more attention to the whole spectrum of an armed encounter. Here in SC, we've seen Mas hosted, Andrew Branca hosted, a new training facility that's local and hosting good trainers, so I think that tide has turned.




First, let me say I am nowhere nearly as experienced in the real world as the vast majority of folks who post here - however - I would wager I have read and studied, more than the average shooter - encompassing all of the greats that you mention here plus many others. I respect all of them for what they all bring to us - a type of education you cannot get anywhere, at a price a blue collar guy like myself can afford. Finding pistol.forum was a Godsend for me, an onlne library and I am grateful for everyone here sharing their knowledge.

Now, what you say here is because Massad Ayoob saw a disparity in emphasis on the elements of lethal force incidents (the how to vs. the aftermath), then wrote and taught accordingly, he's "not to be taken seriously?" I would submit that history proves he was/is right on learning NEARLY ALL things pertaining to lethal force encounters. A recent "back and forth" on this site, pertaining to "manstopping hip shots" proves he isn't perfect - none of us are. Massad Ayoob may be many things - but he most certainly is NOT a wannabe. Not liking his writing style, or his ocasional forays into the dramatic, is no reason to disbelieve what he teaches.

And....he can shoot.

[Al T.]

he's "not to be taken seriously?"

It wasn't meant "to not be taken seriously", but that in that time frame, he didn't get the same recognition other folks got. I *think* it was in the early '80's that Mas and Cooper had sort of a friendly (ish?) feud going on, as expressed in their respective gun magazine columns. Cooper refereed to Mas at least once as "that gun writer from back East" or "Eastern gun writer", so there were definitely multiple camps as to who was right.....

[11B10]

It wasn't meant "to not be taken seriously", but that in that time frame, he didn't get the same recognition other folks got. I *think* it was in the early '80's that Mas and Cooper had sort of a friendly (ish?) feud going on, as expressed in their respective gun magazine columns. Cooper refereed to Mas at least once as "that gun writer from back East" or "Eastern gun writer", so there were definitely multiple camps as to who was right.....


Someone please explain what happened here. I read a post that said for whatever reason, Massad Ayoob was not "to be taken seriously" and I then used it to ask some questions. Tam must've seen it as well, because she responded right after me. The point is, now there's THIS post, which intimates I originated those words. I DID NOT. When I went back and attempted to find the original post to refute this, it's gone. Can someone explain, please?

[Al T.]

Post 2, paragraph 4.

[Dagga Boy]

Someone please explain what happened here. I read a post that said for whatever reason, Massad Ayoob was not "to be taken seriously" and I then used it to ask some questions. Tam must've seen it as well, because she responded right after me. The point is, now there's THIS post, which intimates I originated those words. I DID NOT. When I went back and attempted to find the original post to refute this, it's gone. Can someone explain, please?

For some reason, I didn't see most of the posts in this thread as well as they were not visible.......weird technology thing.
With that said and seeing some stuff regarding videos, etc and what people will do. I have found this to be very simple. People will do exactly as trained with the most significant training they have received. May be TV, movies, the police academy, military training, competition, or on going defensive pistol craft training. Often it is a combo of something like a LE academy and TV, or TV and competition. Competition is also a misnomer. We often relate competition in shooting sports as the only thing important. One finds that highly successful people are always competing with others in the same unit, shooting partners, class status, etc. The key is you will develop habits from whatever training you are doing. Internal competition with others trying to attain the same training goals can often pay as more in dividends in actual shooting of other humans as competing in a shooting sport. Also, hunting is another factor that is a positive for many as far as shooting with pressure for success and in an unpredictable surprise scenario.

[11B10]

For some reason, I didn't see most of the posts in this thread as well as they were not visible.......weird technology thing.
With that said and seeing some stuff regarding videos, etc and what people will do. I have found this to be very simple. People will do exactly as trained with the most significant training they have received. May be TV, movies, the police academy, military training, competition, or on going defensive pistol craft training. Often it is a combo of something like a LE academy and TV, or TV and competition. Competition is also a misnomer. We often relate competition in shooting sports as the only thing important. One finds that highly successful people are always competing with others in the same unit, shooting partners, class status, etc. The key is you will develop habits from whatever training you are doing. Internal competition with others trying to attain the same training goals can often pay as more in dividends in actual shooting of other humans as competing in a shooting sport. Also, hunting is another factor that is a positive for many as far as shooting with pressure for success and in an unpredictable surprise scenario.


Nyeti (hope it's OK for me to call you that, as we've never met) - first, thanks so much for answering. I still do not understand what happened to the original post - I DO have some IT experience and what just happened still doesn't make any sense to me. However, after reading your all class response (it's what I've come to expect from you!), I am choosing to take the high road, let it go and move on. I believe what you say about developing habits from whatever training you are doing. I also believe one can learn more by letting the small stuff go. Lesson learned - thanks again.

[nycnoob]

After WWII, writers like Bill Jordan (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-Winner-William-Jordan/dp/0936279095) and Skeeter Skelton (tons of articles and columns in Shooting Times in the 70's and 80's) wrote at length about specific techniques, but neither man developed a complete method for gunfighting. Massad Ayoob (http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/product-reviews/0936279001) tried couple of times, but he was never really taken seriously for a number of reasons.



This is the quote you are looking for. It was from the second post in this thread.

[11B10]

This is the quote you are looking for. It was from the second post in this thread.



First, I owe you, big time, nycnoob!

Now, here's a lesson to be learned, everyone: SLOW DOWN! I was so sure of the poster I didn't properly search and wasted a lot of your time.

I want to especially apologize to Al.T as it was his post I was sure had been altered somehow. I want you to know your words make a lot of sense and mean even more to me now, Sir.

[nycnoob]

I am a pretty new student of the gun, but near as I can tell the complaints about Ayoob are that his material is more of a synthesis,
his gun handling material came from attending multiple schools and integrating some martial arts knowledge, not from some
extensive experience working in a high crime district and developing the material from experience. But how did his teachings stand
up over time? The modern techniques I was taught look to me to be a bit more like "stressfire" than they do to be "modern technique".

Also he was a proponent of a statistical technique to analyze shootings that is no longer favored. I do appreciate the attempt to
work backwards from real world messy results to gather some relevant data though this is not considered a viable method any more.

[okie john]

Al T. pretty much nailed it.

Thanks for the kind words, and thanks to those who went back and re-read the original post.

What I wrote about Mr. Ayoob was my opinion, based on 1) reading his work over the years, 2) conversations with people I know and trust who have dealt with him personally, and 3) my pretty strong bias toward the Jeff Cooper camp back in the day.

As with everything else that post, feel free to ignore it.


Okie John

[11B10]

Al T. pretty much nailed it.

Thanks for the kind words, and thanks to those who went back and re-read the original post.

What I wrote about Mr. Ayoob was my opinion, based on 1) reading his work over the years, 2) conversations with people I know and trust who have dealt with him personally, and 3) my pretty strong bias toward the Jeff Cooper camp back in the day.


okie - I don't ignore anything I read here. I totally appreciate dissenting views - that's what makes things interesting. Thanks for taking "me" so well.
As with everything else that post, feel free to ignore it.


Okie John

[TGS]

If we look at the medium frame revolvers of the 20's....you could not see the sights until cocked..thus, the next 70 years saw "point shooting" at close range in DA, because "that is how we always did it"....even though the equipment changed significantly.

Next 70 years?

I know of at least one federal agency that still teaches point shooting with pistols.

:rolleyes:

Fucking vampire herpes.

[HCM]

Next 70 years?

I know of at least one federal agency that still teaches point shooting with pistols.

:rolleyes:

Fucking vampire herpes.

As does the California Highway Patrol.

http://pointshooting.com/1atarget.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

[TDA]

Al T. pretty much nailed it.

Thanks for the kind words, and thanks to those who went back and re-read the original post.

What I wrote about Mr. Ayoob was my opinion, based on 1) reading his work over the years, 2) conversations with people I know and trust who have dealt with him personally, and 3) my pretty strong bias toward the Jeff Cooper camp back in the day.

As with everything else that post, feel free to ignore it.


Okie John

It's pretty brave to have even attempted, let alone carried out, such a succinct summation of the last thirty-ish years of our subculture back and forth. I've still got the pertinent fifteen years of Guns & Ammo in boxes in the garage, and I understood what you said and felt it was accurate.
As for a thoughtful and reasoned take on the differences between LFI and API philosophy... is that a thing we don't have but want?

[Dagga Boy]

As does the California Highway Patrol.

http://pointshooting.com/1atarget.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Don't get me started. I have seen first hand what a total disaster that program is. They actually started over again and I have multiple sources from inside, as well as first hand observations of the level of suck.

I am all for proper use of retention shooting techniques at retention distances. Unfortunately, some folks twist this up badly.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Don't get me started. I have seen first hand what a total disaster that program is. They actually started over again and I have multiple sources from inside, as well as first hand observations of the level of suck.

And then there was that whole POST Conference where they tried to get agencies across the state to dump their programs for CHP's method.

[Dagga Boy]

And then there was that whole POST Conference where they tried to get agencies across the state to dump their programs for CHP's method.

From a "protecting the environment" perspective, that would be good. They were thrown off our local range because of the amount of destruction to target stands, other range materials that were shot and not intended to be shot, and rounds leaving the range. If this happened statewide, cops could not shoot anywhere, and thus.....save the planet. Sounds like a plan.

Seriously, the range facility employees said that had never seen anything so bad ever, and this is a place where the DMV investigators are doing their Center Axis Relock stuff, so.......pretty ugly.

[okie john]

It's pretty brave to have even attempted, let alone carried out, such a succinct summation of the last thirty-ish years of our subculture back and forth. I've still got the pertinent fifteen years of Guns & Ammo in boxes in the garage, and I understood what you said and felt it was accurate.

Thanks for the kind words.



As for a thoughtful and reasoned take on the differences between LFI and API philosophy... is that a thing we don't have but want?

I'd like to see it for old time's sake and would probably contribute to the thread, but I'm not the guy to attempt a high-level overview of the different theologies. As a result of this thread, I realize that I was too deep in the API camp for too long give dissenting opinions the objectivity they deserve. That said, I'll throw out a little background:

During and after WWII, Jack O'Connor and Outdoor Life set a precedent that affected outdoor journalism for the next fifty years, or until the internet upended the model of journalism that had endured for the previous four centuries. For those who don't remember, O'Connor was the house gun writer for Outdoor Life. The magazine paid for him to take extravagant hunting trips all over the world, which he then wrote about so people who couldn't afford to hunt could live vicariously through his adventures. A huge part of his audience was soldiers stationed far from home during WWII, and he was largely responsible for driving the interest in hunting and shooting after the war. That made him hugely influential in the firearms industry, and earned him a lot of money.

Other magazines tried to match this. They took on other writers, most notably Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jr., Clyde Ormond, Bob Hagel, Warren Page, and a couple of others, but none of them were as big as Outdoor Life and none of their writers were as good as O'Connor. The celebrity gun writer business model was still sound, so those magazines expanded it by moving away from the big-game hunting angle to cover specialized areas that O'Connor didn't touch very often, like handguns. So by the 1970's, the writers who focused on handguns were Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith at Guns & Ammo, with Skeeter Skelton, Bob Milek, and occasionally Charles Askins, Jr. at Shooting Times. These guys got into TONS of pissing contests with each other, both real and invented, because they were all trying to make a living and because the tension helped drive magazine sales, which drove advertising, which kept the magazines in business.

American Handgunner came late to the game, and I remember reading a lot of Mr. Ayoob's work there. Aside from that, I don't remember that he ever landed one of those long-term deals, perhaps because as Al T. pointed out, he was from the Northeast. That was during the Cold War and the Viet Nam War, and anything having to do with the Northeast was essentially a code word for liberal, left-wing politics, which was essentially a code word for Communism, which was poison with conservative readers. On the other hand, Cooper, a former Marine officer, was from old California money by way of Arizona, and had worked for the CIA and the State Department. Keith and Milek were cowboys and hunting guides from Idaho and Montana. Skelton was former Marine who had served in the Border Patrol, been a Texas sheriff, and ultimately served as a federal LEO in the early days of the DEA. Jordan was from Louisiana by way of the US Border Patrol.

Of those, only Cooper offered an actual system for gunfighting. The others were experienced and colorful, but they only offered anecdotes and asides about gun fighting. Ayoob's ideas (The Isosceles, managing Problem 2, taking seriously things that weren't a 1911 in 45 ACP) were ahead of his time, but he didn't fit with the Western mystique that the others offered.

So that's the background. I'll let other folks take on the actual ideologies that each school developed.


Okie John

[11B10]

Thanks for the kind words.




I'd like to see it for old time's sake and would probably contribute to the thread, but I'm not the guy to attempt a high-level overview of the different theologies. As a result of this thread, I realize that I was too deep in the API camp for too long give dissenting opinions the objectivity they deserve. That said, I'll throw out a little background:

During and after WWII, Jack O'Connor and Outdoor Life set a precedent that affected outdoor journalism for the next fifty years, or until the internet upended the model of journalism that had endured for the previous four centuries. For those who don't remember, O'Connor was the house gun writer for Outdoor Life. The magazine paid for him to take extravagant hunting trips all over the world, which he then wrote about so people who couldn't afford to hunt could live vicariously through his adventures. A huge part of his audience was soldiers stationed far from home during WWII, and he was largely responsible for driving the interest in hunting and shooting after the war. That made him hugely influential in the firearms industry, and earned him a lot of money.

Other magazines tried to match this. They took on other writers, most notably Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jr., Clyde Ormond, Bob Hagel, Warren Page, and a couple of others, but none of them were as big as Outdoor Life and none of their writers were as good as O'Connor. The celebrity gun writer business model was still sound, so those magazines expanded it by moving away from the big-game hunting angle to cover specialized areas that O'Connor didn't touch very often, like handguns. So by the 1970's, the writers who focused on handguns were Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith at Guns & Ammo, with Skeeter Skelton, Bob Milek, and occasionally Charles Askins, Jr. at Shooting Times. These guys got into TONS of pissing contests with each other, both real and invented, because they were all trying to make a living and because the tension helped drive magazine sales, which drove advertising, which kept the magazines in business.

American Handgunner came late to the game, and I remember reading a lot of Mr. Ayoob's work there. Aside from that, I don't remember that he ever landed one of those long-term deals, perhaps because as Al T. pointed out, he was from the Northeast. That was during the Cold War and the Viet Nam War, and anything having to do with the Northeast was essentially a code word for liberal, left-wing politics, which was essentially a code word for Communism, which was poison with conservative readers. On the other hand, Cooper, a former Marine officer, was from old California money by way of Arizona, and had worked for the CIA and the State Department. Keith and Milek were cowboys and hunting guides from Idaho and Montana. Skelton was former Marine who had served in the Border Patrol, been a Texas sheriff, and ultimately served as a federal LEO in the early days of the DEA. Jordan was from Louisiana by way of the US Border Patrol.

Of those, only Cooper offered an actual system for gunfighting. The others were experienced and colorful, but they only offered anecdotes and asides about gun fighting. Ayoob's ideas (The Isosceles, managing Problem 2, taking seriously things that weren't a 1911 in 45 ACP) were ahead of his time, but he didn't fit with the Western mystique that the others offered.

So that's the background. I'll let other folks take on the actual ideologies that each school developed.


Okie John





Thanks from a very interested reader. I have read much, but nothing to compare to the depth of pure experience, for which there is NO substitute, to be found here.

[LSP552]

From a "protecting the environment" perspective, that would be good. They were thrown off our local range because of the amount of destruction to target stands, other range materials that were shot and not intended to be shot, and rounds leaving the range. If this happened statewide, cops could not shoot anywhere, and thus.....save the planet. Sounds like a plan.

Seriously, the range facility employees said that had never seen anything so bad ever, and this is a place where the DMV investigators are doing their Center Axis Relock stuff, so.......pretty ugly.

I remember the aftermath of a National Guard unit being allowed to use the old LSP range long ago for qualifications ranging from the M9 - M60. Wish I had been there to watch.

[HCM]

I'm
Thanks for the kind words.




I'd like to see it for old time's sake and would probably contribute to the thread, but I'm not the guy to attempt a high-level overview of the different theologies. As a result of this thread, I realize that I was too deep in the API camp for too long give dissenting opinions the objectivity they deserve. That said, I'll throw out a little background:

During and after WWII, Jack O'Connor and Outdoor Life set a precedent that affected outdoor journalism for the next fifty years, or until the internet upended the model of journalism that had endured for the previous four centuries. For those who don't remember, O'Connor was the house gun writer for Outdoor Life. The magazine paid for him to take extravagant hunting trips all over the world, which he then wrote about so people who couldn't afford to hunt could live vicariously through his adventures. A huge part of his audience was soldiers stationed far from home during WWII, and he was largely responsible for driving the interest in hunting and shooting after the war. That made him hugely influential in the firearms industry, and earned him a lot of money.

Other magazines tried to match this. They took on other writers, most notably Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jr., Clyde Ormond, Bob Hagel, Warren Page, and a couple of others, but none of them were as big as Outdoor Life and none of their writers were as good as O'Connor. The celebrity gun writer business model was still sound, so those magazines expanded it by moving away from the big-game hunting angle to cover specialized areas that O'Connor didn't touch very often, like handguns. So by the 1970's, the writers who focused on handguns were Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith at Guns & Ammo, with Skeeter Skelton, Bob Milek, and occasionally Charles Askins, Jr. at Shooting Times. These guys got into TONS of pissing contests with each other, both real and invented, because they were all trying to make a living and because the tension helped drive magazine sales, which drove advertising, which kept the magazines in business.

American Handgunner came late to the game, and I remember reading a lot of Mr. Ayoob's work there. Aside from that, I don't remember that he ever landed one of those long-term deals, perhaps because as Al T. pointed out, he was from the Northeast. That was during the Cold War and the Viet Nam War, and anything having to do with the Northeast was essentially a code word for liberal, left-wing politics, which was essentially a code word for Communism, which was poison with conservative readers. On the other hand, Cooper, a former Marine officer, was from old California money by way of Arizona, and had worked for the CIA and the State Department. Keith and Milek were cowboys and hunting guides from Idaho and Montana. Skelton was former Marine who had served in the Border Patrol, been a Texas sheriff, and ultimately served as a federal LEO in the early days of the DEA. Jordan was from Louisiana by way of the US Border Patrol.

Of those, only Cooper offered an actual system for gunfighting. The others were experienced and colorful, but they only offered anecdotes and asides about gun fighting. Ayoob's ideas (The Isosceles, managing Problem 2, taking seriously things that weren't a 1911 in 45 ACP) were ahead of his time, but he didn't fit with the Western mystique that the others offered.

So that's the background. I'll let other folks take on the actual ideologies that each school developed.


Okie John

Cool side notes on Bill Jordan. Jordan Took a leave of absence from the border patrol to serve in the Marines, in the Pacific during World War II. Jordan's uncle, Henderson Jordan., a parish sheriff in Louisiana, was one of the shooters who took out Bonnie and Clyde along with TX Ranger Frank Hamer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson_Jordan

[LSP552]

As does the California Highway Patrol.

http://pointshooting.com/1atarget.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Well...that was interesting. I had no idea.......

[Dagga Boy]

One of the reasons I went the way I did on my study is by looking at how highly successful gunfighters train rather than somebody's "system" is to remove the commercial stuff and only focus on what the folks who are really good at dropping adversaries in gunfights are doing for training. It really changed the dynamic and gets rid of a lot of theory or Gunshop/gun show/ gun culture myth's and improperly applied "science". John Hearne really got me thinking along these lines versus traditional thoughts.

[okie john]

One of the reasons I went the way I did on my study is by looking at how highly successful gunfighters train rather than somebody's "system" is to remove the commercial stuff and only focus on what the folks who are really good at dropping adversaries in gunfights are doing for training. It really changed the dynamic and gets rid of a lot of theory or Gunshop/gun show/ gun culture myth's and improperly applied "science". John Hearne really got me thinking along these lines versus traditional thoughts.

I feel like that's where Cooper left the party. He started by helping shooters think beyond anecdotes, but instead of updating his ideas as new information and feedback became available, he cherry-picked his results and clung to the old ways.


Okie John

[LSP972]

I remember the aftermath of a National Guard unit being allowed to use the old LSP range long ago for qualifications ranging from the M9 - M60. Wish I had been there to watch.

You would have seen the most epic blood pressure spike in recorded history. I had to stop them, because they were getting outside of the fan with their pigs. Not to mention the two runaway guns…

Of course, this was after the NG engineer unit had tried to fix the drainage issue on the main range, and made it worse. Which resulted in those trenches that got in our way… hey, I'll bet one of the Spydercos you lost out there was claimed by those trenches!:cool:

.

[Mike Pipes]

I'm

Cool side notes on Bill Jordan. Jordan Took a leave of absence from the border patrol to serve in the Marines, in the Pacific during World War II. Jordan's uncle, Henderson Jordan., a parish sheriff in Louisiana, was one of the shooters who took out Bonnie and Clyde along with TX Ranger Frank Hamer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson_Jordan

Thanks for the link! Here in Shreveport,La we have always pronounced Jordan as Jerdan but having meet Mr Jordan,thru Jim Clark Sr, he pronounced it as spelled....

[TDA]

Thanks for the kind words.




I'd like to see it for old time's sake and would probably contribute to the thread, but I'm not the guy to attempt a high-level overview of the different theologies. As a result of this thread, I realize that I was too deep in the API camp for too long give dissenting opinions the objectivity they deserve. That said, I'll throw out a little background:

During and after WWII, Jack O'Connor and Outdoor Life set a precedent that affected outdoor journalism for the next fifty years, or until the internet upended the model of journalism that had endured for the previous four centuries. For those who don't remember, O'Connor was the house gun writer for Outdoor Life. The magazine paid for him to take extravagant hunting trips all over the world, which he then wrote about so people who couldn't afford to hunt could live vicariously through his adventures. A huge part of his audience was soldiers stationed far from home during WWII, and he was largely responsible for driving the interest in hunting and shooting after the war. That made him hugely influential in the firearms industry, and earned him a lot of money.

Other magazines tried to match this. They took on other writers, most notably Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jr., Clyde Ormond, Bob Hagel, Warren Page, and a couple of others, but none of them were as big as Outdoor Life and none of their writers were as good as O'Connor. The celebrity gun writer business model was still sound, so those magazines expanded it by moving away from the big-game hunting angle to cover specialized areas that O'Connor didn't touch very often, like handguns. So by the 1970's, the writers who focused on handguns were Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith at Guns & Ammo, with Skeeter Skelton, Bob Milek, and occasionally Charles Askins, Jr. at Shooting Times. These guys got into TONS of pissing contests with each other, both real and invented, because they were all trying to make a living and because the tension helped drive magazine sales, which drove advertising, which kept the magazines in business.

American Handgunner came late to the game, and I remember reading a lot of Mr. Ayoob's work there. Aside from that, I don't remember that he ever landed one of those long-term deals, perhaps because as Al T. pointed out, he was from the Northeast. That was during the Cold War and the Viet Nam War, and anything having to do with the Northeast was essentially a code word for liberal, left-wing politics, which was essentially a code word for Communism, which was poison with conservative readers. On the other hand, Cooper, a former Marine officer, was from old California money by way of Arizona, and had worked for the CIA and the State Department. Keith and Milek were cowboys and hunting guides from Idaho and Montana. Skelton was former Marine who had served in the Border Patrol, been a Texas sheriff, and ultimately served as a federal LEO in the early days of the DEA. Jordan was from Louisiana by way of the US Border Patrol.

Of those, only Cooper offered an actual system for gunfighting. The others were experienced and colorful, but they only offered anecdotes and asides about gun fighting. Ayoob's ideas (The Isosceles, managing Problem 2, taking seriously things that weren't a 1911 in 45 ACP) were ahead of his time, but he didn't fit with the Western mystique that the others offered.

So that's the background. I'll let other folks take on the actual ideologies that each school developed.


Okie John

You're definitely on to a couple of things there. Writing talent and the quality of the story each writer had to tell played a big part in how all this developed that's easy to miss. I certainly had no sense at the time that what I was looking at in magazines was the main event, I've always struggled with numeracy and probably would have drawn a very entertainingly inaccurate venn diagram of the sets of gun magazine subscribers and shooting school attendees. But in a very real sense that's perhaps more obvious now that we're all on the internet and calling everything "content" because it's more words but less story and skill, Col. Cooper told more compelling stories. For example, the story of the Mozambique drill ends with LAPD adopting the technique, and not with FRELIMO running Mozambique.

[TDA]

Now that I can’t edit, I wish I had taken the time to make sure my run on sentences had some worthwhile ideas in them.

Now, looking at my post it looks like I’m saying something about writing talent, which is not where I meant to go. Apparently there is some kind of energy vortex that sucks feet into mouths in this thread. What I was thinking of was that I look at the back cover and I see “Cooper’s Fireworks is a collection of wild, hilarious, shocking, and always meaningful tales from the remarkable life of an American firearms legend.” “Mount up and ride along with Cooper…” it goes on.
Stressfire hasn’t got a blurb on the back cover. The first thing Mas writes in chapter one is that he started out writing for a series of police professional journals.
I’d just never really considered the writing as writing. I’ve read a lot of the material, but I honestly had not ever thought about the fact that I enjoyed a lot of Cooper’s writing because it was deliberately created to be the type of writing I would enjoy.

[5shot]

Re: Handgun training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people:

Gunfight studies and gunfight research have established that Sight Shooting (traditional marksmanship), is not or can not be used in most all close quarters gunfights, where there is the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed.

So, it would be good to know a few simple, easy to learn and maintain alternative shooting methods.

Then you will know of, and how to use one or more alternative and effective shooting method/s, rather than defaulting to and trying to learn how to use some type of instinctive shooting method when someone is trying to kill you, and traditional Sight Shooting is not or can not be used.

1a. The simplest alternative method is one where you GRAB your gun firmly - with your index finger along the side - POINT your index finger at the target - and PULL the trigger with your middle finger. With it you get automatic and correct sight alignment, and an automatic and correct sight picture. Here is a link to a short article on it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aeasy.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

1b. Here is a link to a brief on the method which is called AIMED Point Shooting or P&S : http://www.pointshooting.com/1abrief.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

1c. Here is a link to: A digest of Walter J. Dorfner's paper on AIMED Point Shooting. Walter wrote the paper when he was Vice Chair of the Use of Force Committee of the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council, at the Vermont Police Academy in Pittsford, VT. He also was the lead firearms instructor for the VSP. (Walter died in 2001. ) http://www.pointshooting.com/1apands (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

2a. Pistol Quick Kill (QK) http://www.pointshooting.com/1arobin.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

2b. Why Quick Kill or QK?? http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyqk.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

3. The C.A.R. system of gun fighting http://www.pointshooting.com/1acar.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

4. Point Shooting as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate http://www.pointshooting.com/faschap.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

5. Target-Focused shooting used by the CHP http://www.pointshooting.com/1atarget.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The www.pointshooting (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg) site has a wide variety of articles that provide support for the use of Point Shooting in Close Quarters armed encounters. There also are articles about combat studies and scientific research on self defense subjects, as well as basic instructional materials on traditional marksmanship.

Here is a partial listing of some of the articles:
a. FBI paper: Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness.
b. The NYPD's SOP 9 study of 6000+ Police combat studies.
c. Pics and videos of Sight Shooting being used effectively in Close Quarters gunfights.
d. Why shooters often shoot low and left.
e. Why Seecamp pistols come without sights.
f. Jim Cirillo and CQB shooting methods.
g. Interview with a Chicago PD veteran of 14 gunfights.
h. NRA supports the use of Point Shooting for self defense.
I. The RAND Corp. study of NYPD handgun training.
j. How you will shoot in a real CQB situation.
k. US Army Special Forces operators don't use the sights in combat.
l. Shooting aerials with P&S is easy (DO NOT shoot at aerials with a firearm!).
"A winning hand" (one hand shooting), by mike Conti from Guns & Ammo August 2007.
http://www.sabergroup.com/PDF/Winning%20Hand%20G&A%208-2007.pdf

[Dagga Boy]

I am a HUGE fan of point shooting. I hope anyone I ever engage in a fight with is using it.

[Duelist]

I am a HUGE fan of point shooting. I hope anyone I ever engage in a fight with is using it.

Amen to that!

[Trooper224]

I had no idea the CHP still relies so heavily on point shooting, it boggles the mind.

[Hambo]

US Army Special Forces operators don't use the sights in combat.

They do at SFARTAETC.

[Tamara]

Re: Handgun training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people:

Will no one rid me of this troublesome hack?

[RJ]

They do at SFARTAETC.

Well, historically, this guy is said to use it, too...

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160817/43c372ee2af7996182e0b59271b76f22.jpg

[psalms144.1]

Will no one rid me of this troublesome hack?The Holy See says that "Instructing the Ignorant" and "Bearing Wrongs Patiently" are spiritual acts of mercy - so, you're gaining "cool" points with St. Peter...

[NickA]

Will no one rid me of this troublesome hack?
Let's see if this works:
Broken arrow! Broken arrow!

https://youtu.be/FZq4qQs0ifE

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[Failure2Stop]

Re: Handgun training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people:

Gunfight studies and gunfight research have established that Sight Shooting (traditional marksmanship), is not or can not be used in most all close quarters gunfights, where there is the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed.

So, it would be good to know a few simple, easy to learn and maintain alternative shooting methods.

Then you will know of, and how to use one or more alternative and effective shooting method/s, rather than defaulting to and trying to learn how to use some type of instinctive shooting method when someone is trying to kill you, and traditional Sight Shooting is not or can not be used.

1a. The simplest alternative method is one where you GRAB your gun firmly - with your index finger along the side - POINT your index finger at the target - and PULL the trigger with your middle finger. With it you get automatic and correct sight alignment, and an automatic and correct sight picture. Here is a link to a short article on it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aeasy.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

1b. Here is a link to a brief on the method which is called AIMED Point Shooting or P&S : http://www.pointshooting.com/1abrief.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

1c. Here is a link to: A digest of Walter J. Dorfner's paper on AIMED Point Shooting. Walter wrote the paper when he was Vice Chair of the Use of Force Committee of the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council, at the Vermont Police Academy in Pittsford, VT. He also was the lead firearms instructor for the VSP. (Walter died in 2001. ) http://www.pointshooting.com/1apands (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

2a. Pistol Quick Kill (QK) http://www.pointshooting.com/1arobin.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

2b. Why Quick Kill or QK?? http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyqk.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

3. The C.A.R. system of gun fighting http://www.pointshooting.com/1acar.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

4. Point Shooting as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate http://www.pointshooting.com/faschap.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

5. Target-Focused shooting used by the CHP http://www.pointshooting.com/1atarget.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The www.pointshooting (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg) site has a wide variety of articles that provide support for the use of Point Shooting in Close Quarters armed encounters. There also are articles about combat studies and scientific research on self defense subjects, as well as basic instructional materials on traditional marksmanship.

k. US Army Special Forces operators don't use the sights in combat.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha

Using non-proficient/suboptimally trained people or single examples as proof is ridiculous.

We learned a long time ago that getting sights to where they needed to be on badguys works the best with reducing threats.
Of course, you do you.

[BehindBlueI's]

Gunfight studies and gunfight research have established that Sight Shooting (traditional marksmanship), is not or can not be used in most all close quarters gunfights, where there is the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed.


Gunfight studies, research, and experience have shown you can if you train that way. Fascinating, I know.


I am a HUGE fan of point shooting. I hope anyone I ever engage in a fight with is using it.

This. Very much this. Preferably held sideways and using whatever the Glaser Safety Slug magic bullet of the day is. Or a .22, since it will rattle around in the body like a squirrel in a cage.

[Tamara]

The Holy See says that "Instructing the Ignorant" and "Bearing Wrongs Patiently" are spiritual acts of mercy - so, you're gaining "cool" points with St. Peter...

Sixteen years...sixteen years now...I have watched this same dude (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2987) pop up like mushrooms on a dew-moistened cowflop, always and ever with the same old song and dance...plus a gizmo you can buy!

He tasks me...

[frozentundra]

Sixteen years...sixteen years now...I have watched this same dude (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2987) pop up like mushrooms on a dew-moistened cowflop, always and ever with the same old song and dance...plus a gizmo you can buy!

He tasks me...

This made my morning.

[psalms144.1]

Sixteen years...sixteen years now...I have watched this same dude (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2987) pop up like mushrooms on a dew-moistened cowflop, always and ever with the same old song and dance...plus a gizmo you can buy!

He tasks me...Bless you, my dear...

[okie john]

Are 5shot and NevadaBob the same person? They seem to drink from the same well.


Okie John

[Hambo]

Sixteen years...sixteen years now...I have watched this same dude (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2987) pop up like mushrooms on a dew-moistened cowflop, always and ever with the same old song and dance...plus a gizmo you can buy!

He tasks me...

Just give in to the dark side and write an article about the benefits of point shooting. You know you want to...Tamara, I am your father...

[nycnoob]

January 29, 2000, 10:38 AM #1

I have been trying to get police and others interested in
the Point & Shoot (P&S), method of shooting, and in
using what I call a P&S Index Finger Rest.



Perhaps after 16 years of trying to "get police and others interested" you should investigate why no one is interested.
Do you have a USPSA rank? Lots of people here play the game and would be interested in comparing scores . . .

[rob_s]

gunkid?

[Joe in PNG]

gunkid?
No, a different notorious derp merchant

[5shot]

The hit rate in CQ armed encounters has been for many many years, and still is, less than 20%, which means that more than 4 out of every 5 bullets miss the target and go somewhere else.

And to me that clearly indicates that Sight Shooting which is taught to Police and civilians alike, is not or can not be used in real life or death CQ situations where there is the greatest chance of being shot and or killed.

Per the FBI, if you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.

Also, Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years, but there are no pics or videos of it being used effectively in a CQ armed encounter. You would think there would be thousands of them, and some would be shown to all new shooters. I have never seen even one, in person or on the web. They are rarer than hen's teeth.

Doesn't mean Sight Shooting HAS NEVER BEEN used effectively in a CQ armed encounter by the millions of Police and civilians with guns over the past 100 years. Some people have even said that they have used it effectively. Could be they did, or thought they did, or they just got lucky. Whose to say otherwise.

Finally, and per the stats and studies of real CQ gunfights, might be a good idea to expend 10 rounds or so Point Shooting whenever you are at the range, or are dry firing with or without a gun at home, just in case that's what you will end up doing if you ever are in a real life or death CQ gunfight.

Here's a link to a recent article of mine titled:

Sight Shooting training (Traditional Marksmanship), sets up Police and civilians to be killed.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1adallas.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The video of the recent shooting in Dallas was the reason for it.

[Tamara]

And to me that clearly indicates that Sight Shooting which is taught to Police and civilians alike, is not or can not be used in real life or death CQ situations where there is the greatest chance of being shot and or killed.

You're an idiot.

[scw2]

5shot, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[HCM]

I had no idea the CHP still relies so heavily on point shooting, it boggles the mind.

They were big into point shooting a long time - they are moving away from it due to Poor performance. .

[Failure2Stop]

And to me that clearly indicates that Sight Shooting which is taught to Police and civilians alike, is not or can not be used in real life or death CQ situations where there is the greatest chance of being shot and or killed.


How many life or death shooting solution situations have you been involved in?

[Hambo]

Also, Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years, but there are no pics or videos of it being used effectively in a CQ armed encounter. You would think there would be thousands of them, and some would be shown to all new shooters. I have never seen even one, in person or on the web. They are rarer than hen's teeth.


You must be blind, which would account for your love of point shooting.

[Trooper224]

You're an idiot.

http://www.troll.me/images/sad-guy/thats-soo-hurtful-but-true.jpg

[Duelist]

I'm probably giving too much of my time and thought to this, but how is it possible that, if I'm shot and killed, it'll be at less than 20', if most or all of the bullets fired at that range are going to miss?

All of the people who have ever shot at me or at a position I was hiding in were much, much further away than that. I have no extra holes. All I can ascertain from that is that the people who tried to kill me were bad shots, or they were point shooting, or both.

All of the real-world face shooters I have ever met say the same things: when you don't aim, you miss. When you settle down and use your sights as you were trained, you don't. Since I never shot anybody, I have to go off their experiences and my own experiences in matches: when I rush and don't look at the sights, I miss. When I settle down and use them properly, I don't.

The equation doesn't seem to contain any calculus: pre-algebra level math skills, or BASIC programming if/then statements, seem to contain enough logic to parse this concept - use your sights, make hits. Don't use your sights, miss. Questions?

[Trooper224]

I'm probably giving too much of my time and thought to this, but how is it possible that, if I'm shot and killed, it'll be at less than 20', if most or all of the bullets fired at that range are going to miss?

All of the people who have ever shot at me or at a position I was hiding in were much, much further away than that. I have no extra holes. All I can ascertain from that is that the people who tried to kill me were bad shots, or they were point shooting, or both.

All of the real-world face shooters I have ever met say the same things: when you don't aim, you miss. When you settle down and use your sights as you were trained, you don't. Since I never shot anybody, I have to go off their experiences and my own experiences in matches: when I rush and don't look at the sights, I miss. When I settle down and use them properly, I don't.

The equation doesn't seem to contain any calculus: pre-algebra level math skills, or BASIC programming if/then statements, seem to contain enough logic to parse this concept - use your sights, make hits. Don't use your sights, miss. Questions?

Hey, don't go bringing simple logic into the discussion!

[psalms144.1]

snip...use your sights, make hits. Don't use your sights, miss. Questions?Well, fuck. I just spent all afternoon knocking the sights off all my pistols. Guess I'll put them back on ;)

[BehindBlueI's]

The hit rate in CQ armed encounters has been for many many years, and still is, less than 20%, which means that more than 4 out of every 5 bullets miss the target and go somewhere else.

And to me that clearly indicates that Sight Shooting which is taught to Police and civilians alike, is not or can not be used in real life or death CQ situations where there is the greatest chance of being shot and or killed.

Per the FBI, if you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.

Also, Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years, but there are no pics or videos of it being used effectively in a CQ armed encounter. You would think there would be thousands of them, and some would be shown to all new shooters. I have never seen even one, in person or on the web. They are rarer than hen's teeth.

Doesn't mean Sight Shooting HAS NEVER BEEN used effectively in a CQ armed encounter by the millions of Police and civilians with guns over the past 100 years. Some people have even said that they have used it effectively. Could be they did, or thought they did, or they just got lucky. Whose to say otherwise.

Finally, and per the stats and studies of real CQ gunfights, might be a good idea to expend 10 rounds or so Point Shooting whenever you are at the range, or are dry firing with or without a gun at home, just in case that's what you will end up doing if you ever are in a real life or death CQ gunfight.

Here's a link to a recent article of mine titled:

Sight Shooting training (Traditional Marksmanship), sets up Police and civilians to be killed.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1adallas.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The video of the recent shooting in Dallas was the reason for it.

Here's a link to a recent article I wrote:

You're a moron peddling snake oil that could get people hurt or killed.

I honestly don't know why your derpy bullshit is permitted to stay on this forum.

[Trooper224]

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss183/4mellowd/derpit.jpg

[JCS]

I'm probably the only one who clicked on his article, but he says if the Dallas PD officer had used his PS method he wouldn't be dead. What a joke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PNWTO]

Is a shilltroll a thing? Trolling shill? 5shot deserves such a moniker for pimping his site in such a manner.

[Tamara]

I'm probably the only one who clicked on his article, but he says if the Dallas PD officer had used his PS method he wouldn't be dead.

I have officially moved my lever from "Annoyed" to "Why won't this numbnuts go play in traffic?"

[1slow]

I have officially moved my lever from "Annoyed" to "Why won't this numbnuts go play in traffic?"

Seconded !!!

[Robinson]

If okie john doesn't use sighted fire I'm not going to either.

[Mitch]

If okie john doesn't use sighted fire I'm not going to either.

I've seen his 25 yard groups. If he point shoots that shit I'm going to just quit now, sell all my guns, and buy a rape whistle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

I honestly don't know why your derpy bullshit is permitted to stay on this forum.

I'm guessing that having seen a big pile of derp deposited on the living room carpet, the Owner/Admins here are going to let the OP get whacked on the snout with the rolled up newspaper of the Forum at large.

[Gadfly]

He tasks me...

I cant be the only one that read that, and heard Ricardo Montalbán's voice in my head...

[okie john]

If okie john doesn't use sighted fire I'm not going to either.

I checked out the website that this guy mentions. It's classic lame-ass gun journalism circa about 1965--someone gets an idea that they think should work, then they cherry pick anecdotes to support it, cite studies and interviews out of context, and shout it from the housetops. They also pointedly ignore the lessons learned by the people who have used the scientific method to advance the actual science of what we do. For example, the site quotes a former long-tabber as saying, "The sights are used and lined up in the traditional post in notch but both are blurry." This is an accurate quote, and I suspect that many of us use this technique as the situation dictates. But the conclusion that the author draws immediately afterwards is absurd: that the same results "...also can be achieved simply by gripping the gun with the index finger placed along the side and in parallel with the barrel."

Rather than continue to debate this idiocy, I'll make an offer to our friend 5shot: you enter a dozen action shooting matches, or one each month between now and September 30, 2017. I'll cover your entry fees. You must use your P&S technique. You may not use sighted fire. These matches are designed specifically to mimic the conditions under which you suggest that your technique is superior, so they should be the perfect place to refine, advance, and share your thinking. In return, you provide us contact information for the match directors and an independent way to verify your scores.

If you finish above the bottom third in any of these matches, then I'll apologize publicly. I'll also buy and distribute a case of P-F.com rape whistles to match our hats and watches.

If you can't get out of the bottom third, then you take down your site permanently, shut up about P&S, and go away.

Sorry to get testy about this, but that site has a page entitled "UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL FORCES OPERATORS DON'T USE THE SIGHTS IN COMBAT" and that pisses me off.


Okie John

[PNWTO]

Sorry to get testy about this, but that site has a page entitled "UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL FORCES OPERATORS DON'T USE THE SIGHTS IN COMBAT" and that pisses me off.



I was at a Defoor class two weekends ago, Kyle must not have gotten that block of instruction. It is unnerving that Defoor isn't teaching P&S to civvies or to his old boys at the pointiest tip of the pointiest spear. 5Shot should probably make some calls and correct this travesty.

[Robinson]

Sorry to get testy about this, but that site has a page entitled "UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL FORCES OPERATORS DON'T USE THE SIGHTS IN COMBAT" and that pisses me off. Okie John

I sure hope you took my poor attempt at humor the way I meant it (poking fun at 5shot's comment about SF).

[okie john]

I sure hope you took my poor attempt at humor the way I meant it (poking fun at 5shot's comment about SF).

Of course. What irritates me is a complete assclown trying to steal glory by making false statements about a unit in which he never served.


Okie John

[Kyle Reese]

I was at a Defoor class two weekends ago, Kyle must not have gotten that block of instruction. It is unnerving that Defoor isn't teaching P&S to civvies or to his old boys at the pointiest tip of the pointiest spear. 5Shot should probably make some calls and correct this travesty.

I guess the instructors at Tiger Swan never got the memo either, considering their emphasis on accuracy.

[BehindBlueI's]

Honestly, because I've been busy and hadn't seen his latest posts which have recently gone from "stupid" to "spam" in my opinion. I'm extremely hesitant to exercise editorial control over the content here, but PF will no longer contribute to the pagerank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank) of his website.

Maybe edit for brevity:

Q: Does anyone like this stupid ass idea supported by selective reading, no experience at gun fighting, and outright lies?

A: No. Fuck off.

...which is probably why no one ever asks me to be a moderator.

[Hambo]

I'll also buy and distribute a case of P-F.com rape whistles to match our hats and watches.


We have rape whistles? Why doesn't anyone tell me these things?

[Mitch]

We have rape whistles? Why doesn't anyone tell me these things?

Not yet, soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[okie john]

We have rape whistles? Why doesn't anyone tell me these things?

Credit where credit is due:


I've seen his 25 yard groups. If he point shoots that shit I'm going to just quit now, sell all my guns, and buy a rape whistle.

From a rape whistle in general to P-F.com rape whistle seemed like a small logical leap, so I went with it.


Okie John

[Trooper224]

I cant be the only one that read that, and heard Ricardo Montalbán's voice in my head...

You weren't.

[Tamara]

Not yet, soon.

Oh, well-played!

[HCM]

I guess the instructors at Tiger Swan never got the memo either, considering their emphasis on accuracy.

The obviously went to the trouble of putting adjustable sights on their guns to NOT use them. Where is the cuckoo .gif ?

[HCM]

I was at a Defoor class two weekends ago, Kyle must not have gotten that block of instruction. It is unnerving that Defoor isn't teaching P&S to civvies or to his old boys at the pointiest tip of the pointiest spear. 5Shot should probably make some calls and correct this travesty.

That's because KD4 was in The Navy...:p

[Dagga Boy]

I ll make this easy for the clown. Special Forces.....here is the actual qualification course for the top one. Post a video of you shooting it with taped sights and shooting with whatever finger you want. It is one thing to bloviate and another to prove it.

http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-humbler

I had the opportunity to spank a bunch of the CAR instructors on their own courses in front of all their students who were spewing the same crap to a bunch of LE instructors. So....show us all how well this crap works.

[Failure2Stop]

I ll make this easy for the clown. Special Forces.....here is the actual qualification course for the top one. Post a video of you shooting it with taped sights and shooting with whatever finger you want. It is one thing to bloviate and another to prove it.

http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-humbler

I had the opportunity to spank a bunch of the CAR instructors on their own courses in front of all their students who were spewing the same crap to a bunch of LE instructors. So....show us all how well this crap works.

Dude, these guys can't even show up to a local IDPA match and prove that it works.

[Hambo]

Another option: sign up for a Dave Harrington class and tell him straight out of the gate that SF doesn't use sighted fire. Be sure to get video.

[Kyle Reese]

Another option: sign up for a Dave Harrington class and tell him straight out of the gate that SF doesn't use sighted fire. Be sure to get video.
That would be hilarious.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

In case it has not yet been mentioned, holster-maker Chic Gaylord authored a book, which included shooting techniques gleaned from his customers.

Regarding point-shooting, and hip-shooting, one-fifth of my primary duty pistol qual rounds are still fired from the hip. The inside of my wrist is supposed to be in contact with the with the belt, or against my side just above or below the belt. (Duty belts fit kind of high, especially with the high-waist duty pants we used to wear.) Shooting these roundsfrom high retention/pec/#2 is specifically disallowed. Hmm, but what does the qual have to do with the real world, anyway? To their credit, the firearms instructors allow us to be more realistic with the fifty rounds we must fire through each of our "off-duty/back-up" guns, and at least one has his own version of the "off-duty/back-up" qual that is quite street-relevant.

Actually, this hip-shooting may be a TCOLE requirement.

This is a big-city PD, with a range that operates all three shifts, five days/nights a week.

[HCM]

The wrist thing is not a TCOLE requirement.

Section 218.9 : http://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/default/files/RulesHandbook_Feb_2014.pdf

See also: https://teex.org/documentsresources/LAW/Law%20Enforcement/Firing%20Range%20Qualifications.pdf

[TCinVA]

I cant be the only one that read that, and heard Ricardo Montalbán's voice in my head...


https://youtu.be/gCN5yUgf23A?t=11s

Mr. 5shot:

I've done some googling and I've noticed that this isn't the first time you've posted this nonsense here.

Suffice it to say that we have lots of people here who know a whole lot better than you. Tom Givens, for example, teaches sighted fire...and his students have a 95% hit rate in actual exchanges of gunfire. It works.

So stop it.

[LHS]

Another option: sign up for a Dave Harrington class and tell him straight out of the gate that SF doesn't use sighted fire. Be sure to get video.

That would be comedy gold.

Jesus, I can't believe this assclown is still peddling this crap. It's one thing to embrace one's inner P.T. Barnum when selling run of the mill things, but this is going to get people killed (assuming it hasn't already). He should be ashamed of himself.

[Tamara]

He should be ashamed of himself.

He is an iron tower of ignorance.

[Rex G]

OK, HCM, thanks; good to know. Now, I need not feel guilty when I manage to "modify" the hip shots a bit, with more-forward waist-level position, as shown in Bill Jordan's book. Pushing forward, until the shoulder muscles feel the tension, as Bill Jordan described, is actually a realistic aid to accuracy, if one "must" shoot from such a low position.

Having said that, (and this part is particularly directed at point-shooting advocates,) when I had to shoot an adversary, at a distance very similar to our hip-shooting qual distance, I used the sights. Yes, the front sight was "out of the notch," but I could see my arms, hands, and the top of my GP100, including the sights. The front sight was directly above the rear notch. Elevation was not an issue, of course, at that range; I was standing, and he was standing. (The write-up in that national magazine got it wrong; implying I shook a sleeping homeless person awake, then executed him.)

Of course, point&shooters can factor me out, because I am not Special Forces.

[Digiroc]

After reading this thread in it's entirety I can see now why I have been ostracized for my own professed technique for combat shooting, i.e. point and shoot, or instinct shooting a "double tap" (but with a full grip, no finger pointing for me) on my way to an aimed 3rd shot, a head shot if available.

I've not proselytized nor advocated this for anyone but myself. I don't claim Special Forces, Law Enforcement, or sekret government training for this method. All I can say is that I believe it would work for me in that extreme situation. A situation I've never found myself in, nor ever expect to find myself in.

I see it flys in the face of the experts here and I'd most likely be taken down by a nyeti type with an accurate aimed shot before I even got one off. But I don't expect to be facing anyone with near the skill level of the posters here. I'm thinking street thugs who favor gangsa style sideways shooting or perhaps an AK fired from the hip.

Surprise fire from a little old man who would seem to be an easy victim might be enough to make an assailant a bit jumpy long enough to get in my head shot of aimed fire to settle things. I don't know and I hope I never have to find out.

I'm sure I would benefit from training sessions by an experienced weapons trainer, and may even get my speed with an aimed shot close to sending two downrange on my way up to a sight picture. But hey, what do I know, I'm no expert.

So please don't associate me with 5shot, I am not him. Gentle and polite guidance is more appropriate to maintain the quality of discussion on this forum. I come here to learn, not to teach, preach, or argue.

Digiroc

[BehindBlueI's]

After reading this thread in it's entirety I can see now why I have been ostracized for my own professed technique for combat shooting, i.e. point and shoot, or instinct shooting a "double tap" (but with a full grip, no finger pointing for me) on my way to an aimed 3rd shot, a head shot if available.

I've not proselytized nor advocated this for anyone but myself. I don't claim Special Forces, Law Enforcement, or sekret government training for this method. All I can say is that I believe it would work for me in that extreme situation. A situation I've never found myself in, nor ever expect to find myself in.

I see it flys in the face of the experts here and I'd most likely be taken down by a nyeti type with an accurate aimed shot before I even got one off. But I don't expect to be facing anyone with near the skill level of the posters here. I'm thinking street thugs who favor gangsa style sideways shooting or perhaps an AK fired from the hip.

Surprise fire from a little old man who would seem to be an easy victim might be enough to make an assailant a bit jumpy long enough to get in my head shot of aimed fire to settle things. I don't know and I hope I never have to find out.

I'm sure I would benefit from training sessions by an experienced weapons trainer, and may even get my speed with an aimed shot close to sending two downrange on my way up to a sight picture. But hey, what do I know, I'm no expert.

So please don't associate me with 5shot, I am not him. Gentle and polite guidance is more appropriate to maintain the quality of discussion on this forum. I come here to learn, not to teach, preach, or argue.

Digiroc

There is a time and place for body indexed or "retention firing position" or the like where the sights are not used. This is not what's under discussion with the middle finger trigger pullers. That said, surprise makes a ton of difference, particularly in one on one encounters when the bad guy hasn't made up his mind if he's going to shoot you or not (ie, street robbery, not an active shooter).

[Digiroc]

There is a time and place for body indexed or "retention firing position" or the like where the sights are not used. This is not what's under discussion with the middle finger trigger pullers. That said, surprise makes a ton of difference, particularly in one on one encounters when the bad guy hasn't made up his mind if he's going to shoot you or not (ie, street robbery, not an active shooter).

I save my middle finger for "flipping the bird", not shooting my weapon. (exception: when pointing my Hi-Standard derringer) It is that surprise that is one of the "magic tricks" I alluded to in an earlier post. Misdirecting and flat out deception as in "reaching for the money in my pocket" with appropriate body language and fear in my voice and then coming out with my AISW weapon, firing from "retention firing position" as you call it, or hip shot in my lexicon.

When confronted with a weapon holding assailant. If at arm's length, a deflecting blow with my weak hand to the weapon facing me after I use both hands to "dig in my front pocket for money" while actually preparing the left hand for a sweep, and the right for the draw. In the case of 4 o'clock ISWB or belt carry I'll appear to be reaching for my wallet, slowly at first, then once I have a secure grip on my weapon, a shift into the highest gear I have and the fastest double tap I can mange while bringing the gun up to sight acquisition and an aimed shot.

Crude I suppose compared to a highly trained marksman, but as you said, the ton of difference is the surprise shift from slow, weak, and scared compliance to fast, aggressive reaction to the threat. I've never had to shoot anyone, and I'm thankful for that, but the same techniques have halted at least one attempted robbery without a gun at my disposal.

Digiroc


'.

[Jared]

I save my middle finger for "flipping the bird", not shooting my weapon. (exception: when pointing my Hi-Standard derringer) It is that surprise that is one of the "magic tricks" I alluded to in an earlier post. Misdirecting and flat out deception as in "reaching for the money in my pocket" with appropriate body language and fear in my voice and then coming out with my AISW weapon, firing from "retention firing position" as you call it, or hip shot in my lexicon.

When confronted with a weapon holding assailant. If at arm's length, a deflecting blow with my weak hand to the weapon facing me after I use both hands to "dig in my front pocket for money" while actually preparing the left hand for a sweep, and the right for the draw. In the case of 4 o'clock ISWB or belt carry I'll appear to be reaching for my wallet, slowly at first, then once I have a secure grip on my weapon, a shift into the highest gear I have and the fastest double tap I can mange while bringing the gun up to sight acquisition and an aimed shot.

Crude I suppose compared to a highly trained marksman, but as you said, the ton of difference is the surprise shift from slow, weak, and scared compliance to fast, aggressive reaction to the threat. I've never had to shoot anyone, and I'm thankful for that, but the same techniques have halted at least one attempted robbery without a gun at my disposal.

Digiroc


'.

Look, I'm not very smart at all, but I really think you need to seek out the posts of Tom Givens and especially SouthNarc on these things. Givens has an excellent book available on Kindle or hard copy that should start pointing you in the right direction. SouthNarc teaches a class called ECQC that deals specifically (although not exclusively if I understand correctly) with fighting at extremely close ranges.

Those two gentlemen, as well as Nyeti, should be a very good primer to rid you of some very bad ideas.

[Digiroc]

... SouthNarc teaches a class called ECQC that deals specifically (although not exclusively if I understand correctly) with fighting at extremely close ranges. Those two gentlemen, as well as Nyeti, should be a very good primer to rid you of some very bad ideas.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I'd love to get some expert training. Could you elaborate on what specifically are my "very bad ideas"? (others are welcome to offer advice / critiques as well).

Digiroc

[Jared]

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I'd love to get some expert training. Could you elaborate on what specifically are my "very bad ideas"? (others are welcome to offer advice / critiques as well).

Digiroc

There's folks that are MUCH more qualified than I to answer. Actually, I'm not qualified at all. But when you say you intend to fire two unsighted snap shots and then aim the third, I do not like that. I'd rather you say fire two AIMED shots center mass and then transition to a third shot, also aimed, at the head.

I think two unaimed snap shots is reckless at best, and more likely negligent. You are accountable for every single bullet that leaves the barrel of that gun. Every one. That, to me, means that every possible effort must be made to make sure those bullets go where we want them to go. Aimed fire does that. Now, there are techniques, good ones, for getting hits without using sights, as BBI mentioned. But aimed fire should be practiced to the point that aimed fire is the default response.

In other words, I would rather practice using my sights to the point that using my sights is what automatically happens if I ever have to fight.

Also, do not forget Tom Givens. He also offers excellent training. Nyeti offers excellent training. Any of those three, as well as some others should be able to really teach you how to survive if you have to fight.

The key thing about learning, iny experience, especially here, is that you have to be willing to accept at things you believed for a very long time are wrong. Then you let go of those things. Then the new, better things take their place.

[Digiroc]

Thank you for your input Jared. I do understand the responsibility for every shot fired. I'm not talking about unaimed shots, just aimed without the benefit of a full sight picture. As in the retention shooting position mentioned by BehindBlueEyes, where your opponent could be close enough to grasp your weapon if extended fully for a complete sight picture.

That "hip shot" would be round one, with round two coming on the way up to full extension and complete sight picture. Both instinctively aimed shots with the front sight more in play on the second shot than the first. This method is assuming a close range encounter from 3 feet to 30 feet. Which when at 30 feet I'm now in my practice range, where I'm quite capable of placing all aimed rounds into a head sized target.

The first two, even at 30 feet, are center mass shots where my chances of hitting flesh are greater even with instinctively aimed shots. I'm also going to be moving, either to take advantage of available cover, or if there is none, advancing on my assailant to close the distance for the hopefully final, and aimed shot with a full sight picture.

Also although not mentioned up to this point is the fact that most of my carry weapons are laser equipped so the red dot will hopefully be dancing on the opponent's chest during my first two attempts to put a stop to the altercation. Not that I'm going to wait until I see that. The laser on my weapons are an aid, not a crutch.

I hope this clarifies my position with regard to close combat weapon handing.

Digiroc

As Mr. Givens has been mentioned, I thought I'd add this clip which demonstrates instinctive shooting (Hollywood I know):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vNRZCLgxng

And here's another Raylan clip where instinctive shooting doesn't always work out as intended:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbKEVPmEvpg

[JCS]

Thank you for your input Jared. I do understand the responsibility for every shot fired. I'm not talking about unaimed shots, just aimed without the benefit of a full sight picture. As in the retention shooting position mentioned by BehindBlueEyes, where your opponent could be close enough to grasp your weapon if extended fully for a complete sight picture.

That "hip shot" would be round one, with round two coming on the way up to full extension and complete sight picture. Both instinctively aimed shots with the front sight more in play on the second shot than the first. This method is assuming a close range encounter from 3 feet to 30 feet. Which when at 30 feet I'm now in my practice range, where I'm quite capable of placing all aimed rounds into a head sized target.

The first two, even at 30 feet, are center mass shots where my chances of hitting flesh are greater even with instinctively aimed shots. I'm also going to be moving, either to take advantage of available cover, or if there is none, advancing on my assailant to close the distance for the hopefully final, and aimed shot with a full sight picture.

Also although not mentioned up to this point is the fact that most of my carry weapons are laser equipped so the red dot will hopefully be dancing on the opponent's chest during my first two attempts to put a stop to the altercation. Not that I'm going to wait until I see that. The laser on my weapons are an aid, not a crutch.

I hope this clarifies my position with regard to close combat weapon handing.

Digiroc

As Mr. Givens has been mentioned, I thought I'd add this clip which demonstrates instinctive shooting (Hollywood I know):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vNRZCLgxng

And here's another Raylan clip where instinctive shooting doesn't always work out as intended:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbKEVPmEvpg

How does this strategy work under stress? Have you ever tried it under stressful conditions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TCinVA]

I see it flys in the face of the experts here and I'd most likely be taken down by a nyeti type with an accurate aimed shot before I even got one off. But I don't expect to be facing anyone with near the skill level of the posters here.

It's not really about the skill level of your opponent. Because pistol bullets just punch little holes in things, it's up to the shooter to ensure he/she is punching holes in something important. Sighted fire is the only way to reliably accomplish that.

Sighted fire doesn't have to mean 25 yard bullseye perfect sighted fire, by the way. Distance and the size of the target you are trying to hit dictate how precise your sight picture and trigger press need to be to get the hit. The goal is either the triangle formed by the eye sockets and the nose, or the triangle formed by drawing a line from the base of the throat to the nipples. At five yards I do not need a very precise sight picture to make those hits reliably. In fact, if I see my front sight somewhere in the rear notch and the front sight is somewhere inside that triangle, it's good enough to get the hit. To hit the head triangle reliably I need to take maybe .005-.010 of a second more to confirm a more precise sight picture and exercise better control on the trigger. To hit either at 25 yards I need a very precise sight picture and a very precise trigger press. Practice has taught me to "see what I need to see" to make the hit. In other words, through time on the range I've learned what I have to do with the sights and the trigger to get the hit I need to make. When presented with a shot, I "know" what I have to do to guarantee a hit, and then it's on me to execute to at least that level.

Time is the thing you have least of in a real fight. Bullets that don't hit those two vital areas just waste time.

[Digiroc]

How does this strategy work under stress? Have you ever tried it under stressful conditions?

One of the things I pride myself is grace under pressure. I climb trees for a living and that is statistically far more dangerous than Police work. I've made over 2000 freefall parachute jumps with nine emergency chute activations. I'm a commercially rated pilot and built flying time as a jump pilot flying mostly old junk aircraft. I've been undercover in the Ku Klux Klan and rode with notorious biker gangs.

But I've never had the experience to try this out in an actual gunfight, although I've stood down two attempted robberies with nothing but body language and calm resolve. I think I can handle it if I need to.

Digiroc

Here I am in a pretty stressful situation: (stress is at the end) Not a gunfight, but I did want to shoot Cousin Lee after that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKjL3XTrv44

[Digiroc]

It's not really about the skill level of your opponent... Time is the thing you have least of in a real fight. Bullets that don't hit those two vital areas just waste time.

Well I disagree about the skill level of the person shooting at you, sure even a blind squirrel can find a nut, but your odds are much better if that person is not trained and practiced. It's that time factor that determines my response. Even misses can be effective in saving your life, just as tossing in a flash bang can unnerve and disorient the occupants of a room just before it is breached.

Sure it would be nice to have the time to place a carefully aimed shot reliably between the eyes, or better yet, call 911 and smoke a cigar while waiting for a Police presence. But I'm planing and preparing for the situation where time has run out and action is the least best and last alternative.

Digiroc

[BehindBlueI's]

Bullets that don't hit those two vital areas just waste time.

I disagree, and do so based on countless shootings were non-fatal hits convinced the bad guy to go away or reset the OODA loop and/or physical condition enough that the bad guy's ability to effectively stay in the fight was greatly diminished until a fatal hit was achieved.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Actually, this hip-shooting may be a TCOLE requirement.

This is a big-city PD, with a range that operates all three shifts, five days/nights a week.

TCOLE, which is normally a soup sandwich, does not require any hip shooting/unsighted shooting.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

.... advancing on my assailant to close the distance for the hopefully final, and aimed shot with a full sight picture.

While I am a fat old guy and not a professional, I fail to see the logic of advancing on the opponent. I recall John Holschen suggesting in an Insights advanced course, that maintaining a sight picture and shooting while getting out of there is a good plan for folks like me. John said that folks have a natural instinct to close to try to convince the opponent to give up (my paraphrase and excuse me if I got this wrong). But that make the opponent have an easier time to shoot you or stick you with a hat pin.

At a close range match, Eric Lambertson gave us problems to solve. One competitor says he always moves, no matter what. So the beep beeps and given the configuration he runs right in front of three opponents. Since they are cardboard - he lives. I commented to Eric, he nodded.

Now at the NTI, once as I crossed the open space a target popped out. There was no cover to run to in real time, so I just opened up on it as I advanced on it. I was praised for good aggressiveness in that particular situation. I suppose charging a target in a Tueller drill is a plan for a good sight picture?

[DamonL]

If we separate out military and police training, then civilian use of the handgun was pretty much an ad hoc business based on theory and supposition until Jeff Cooper founded the American Pistol Institute (often referred to as API or Gunsite) in 1976.

Before WWII, Ed McGivern (http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Fancy-Revolver-Shooting-McGivern/dp/0832905577), Elmer Keith (http://www.amazon.com/Sixguns-Keith-Standard-Reference-Illustrated/dp/1614272824), and a few others wrote intelligently about using handguns at speed and under stress, but most of them were talking theory—few had been in actual gunfights.

Sykes and Fairbairn published with a method of sorts in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Live-With-One-Hand/dp/1581606788) based on their experience with the Shanghai Municipal Police before WWII. Some of that they talk about makes sense, but most has been eclipsed by a more modern understanding.

After WWII, writers like Bill Jordan (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-Winner-William-Jordan/dp/0936279095) and Skeeter Skelton (tons of articles and columns in Shooting Times in the 70's and 80's) wrote at length about specific techniques, but neither man developed a complete method for gunfighting. Massad Ayoob (http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/product-reviews/0936279001) tried couple of times, but he was never really taken seriously for a number of reasons.

The Modern Technique of the Pistol (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Technique-Pistol-Gregory-Morrison/dp/0962134236) came out of API in 1991. It was essentially Jeff Cooper’s attempt to preserve his method in hopes of convincing everyone that he had solved the problem and stopping them from challenging or improving upon his work. Before him, pretty much everything taught formally in the US came from the NRA, who based their TTPs on law-enforcement methods, such as the FBI reload, that were often based more on safe range procedure for poorly-trained shooters than on tactical soundness.

Then three developments—action shooting, the internet and the surveillance video—changed everything.

Action shooting let shooters try their hands at the actual skills they might need in a fight. People in Tier I military units got a lot of their training from high-level competitive shooters, and those competitions drove a lot of modifications to the handguns you can buy over the counter today.

The internet let shooters compare notes more easily. Before the internet, we read The American Rifleman, Guns & Ammo, or Shooting Times, plus the handful of books that were occasionally published on the subject. If you had questions, then you wrote a letter to the editors and if they liked your question, it might have been published a year or so later, along with a half-assed answer that had been edited to work for a mass audience and not to offend advertisers. Cooper, Keith, and others answered letters written directly to them, but their output was limited. With the internet, shooters can find and interact with very experienced gunfighters in real time--and this forum is probably the best place for that to happen.

To my knowledge, Ken Hackathorn was the first to point out how much surveillance video has changed our understanding of gunfights, because it lets us study what people actually do in fights without having to rely on post-event reports and testimony. So add a few thousand YouTube videos to a couple of good forums, and that’s pretty much the state of the art today.

And there are two other things that influence the state of affairs today, the influence of which has yet to be fully seen. The first is the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994, which had the unintended consequence of helping the NRA put a ton of pro-gun candidates into mayor's offices, state legislatures, judge's chambers, and other public offices where they could make it possible for so many of us to carry concealed weapons today. That drives the market for most civilian instruction in the handgun.

The other is the Global War on Terror. Many of its veterans have found employment imparting to the rest of us skills and the mindset that they developed in combat. Every one of them seems to have his or her own method, techniques, and opinions, which range from the superb to the idiotic.


Okie John

I would add the following books and repeat some that were already mentioned:

- Principles of Personal Defense, Jeff Cooper.

For clarification, Massad Ayoob's books would fit in with the time frame of the Modern Technique and not at the time of Bill Jordan. I think because he came from a small rural Department, he lacked some of the credentials others had, but his emphasis on analyzing shootings and the legal consequences were unique at the time for non-police. I remember attending LFI 1 and thinking we spent half the course in lecture on legal aspects around self-defense shootings and it was what I imagined law school would be like. The final shooting exercise was a police qualification course. He also taught both the Weaver and Isoceles.

- Stressfire, Massad Ayoob.
- American Handgunner Magazine, Ayoob Files.

Also, look up John Farnham. He teaches through Defensive Training Institute. He taught at Gunsite and went on to offer training at hosted locations. He learned gems of wisdom from his travels.

After the modern technique, the modern isoceles was introduced by Rob Leatham and Brian Enos. This was a change from the classic Weaver Stance and is a widely accepted technique now.

- Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals, Brian Enos.

I think John Shaw and Mike Plaxco wrote some books around the same time, too.

Finally, look for books from Scott Reitz and Jim Cirillo for some more recent takes on gunfighting.

I wanted to add a comment about point shooting. From a historical perspective, it was taught as a technique of defensive shooting at one point. The modern technique has advanced us beyond that. So as a complete examination of history, I think it is ok to mention it and the books describing it. I remember taking classes where sighted fire was taught, but one drill was added at 3 yards to try unsighted shooting. Whether it was point shooting, index fire, etc. it was something we tried.

[okie john]

While I am a fat old guy and not a professional, I fail to see the logic of advancing on the opponent. I recall John Holschen suggesting in an Insights advanced course, that maintaining a sight picture and shooting while getting out of there is a good plan for folks like me. John said that folks have a natural instinct to close to try to convince the opponent to give up (my paraphrase and excuse me if I got this wrong). But that make the opponent have an easier time to shoot you or stick you with a hat pin.

At a close range match, Eric Lambertson gave us problems to solve. One competitor says he always moves, no matter what. So the beep beeps and given the configuration he runs right in front of three opponents. Since they are cardboard - he lives. I commented to Eric, he nodded.

Now at the NTI, once as I crossed the open space a target popped out. There was no cover to run to in real time, so I just opened up on it as I advanced on it. I was praised for good aggressiveness in that particular situation. I suppose charging a target in a Tueller drill is a plan for a good sight picture?

Some people definitely have an instinct to close with and destroy the enemy. Mr. Holschen was on the team across the hall from mine for several years and I can say for certain that he is one of these people. Other people lack that instinct, and must be reminded that the situation always dictates the tactics, and the more tactics you can execute automatically and with lethal vigor, the better. As the guy in your NTI class demonstrated, it's a bad idea to rely on one tactic for every situation. But it's also a bad idea to reject tactics for any reason other than the situation itself. For instance, advancing on an assailant who is very close to you is probably unwise. But if you've got a large, empty parking lot to your back, multiple assailants to your front, and cover between you and them, then advancing to use that cover might save your life or the lives of non-combatants in your care.


Okie John

[frozentundra]

If you were embarking today on a study of the history of handgun shooting skills and training / techniques related to personal defense for ordinary people, what resources would you seek out to begin with?

Which books would you recommend, and in what order?

What other materials (websites, DVDs, magazines, audio files) might prove helpful?

pax,

Kathy

This is a link to an episode of Mike Seeklander's American Warrior Podcast where he is interviewing Ken Hackathorn. Ken takes some time to talk about his background and what some of his thoughts are about the evolution of firearms training from his time as an SF small arms instructor, up through his early days in LE, and his time with Jeff Cooper and that crowd. He also talks somewhat about how his ideas and methodologies about training evolved over that time to become what they are today.

I only wish the interview could have been longer. I really enjoyed it.

http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/ken

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In class, IIRC, and to clarify - John was demonstrating the situation where you had someone at gun point and wanted compliance. If the person did not comply, John stated that many people tended to close and yell louder. He suggest that the better plan was to keep on target and scoot backwards. If you were in the fight, closing - I suppose depends on what you think works best. The post under discussion seems to postulate two shots that were ineffective because of suspect sighting techniques and then closing to use sighted fire. That didn't make sense to me.

At an Insights class - SVT (IIRC) - we were divided into two groups. One was inside a barn doing a scenario and my group was outside doing something. In the scenario, some BGs were armed and only some of the good guys. All of a sudden, there were shots from the barn and a door flew open and a thundering hard of manly men headed for the hills. Greg Hamilton said : "Well, that's a major hauling of ass". For some reason, this still cracks me up.

This is off Kathy's topic a bit but appropriate sensible tactics are part of it.

[Digiroc]

As this is the "History of Defensive Techniques" I stand as a throwback to that history I suppose. It's also in "Mindset and Tactics", so that is a primary focus for my outdated tactics. The magic tricks of deception and distraction coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action and behavior dictates advancing in a supremely menacing manner, after all my intent is to kill without mercy and thus will show none.

The suspect of my laser focus is disarmed (not literally, although showing down the weapon or killing me would be the only way to stop my attack)) by my uber aggression, and a retreat, no matter how small, is not part of my program at that point. This all pertains to an open field of fire and at least some distance say 25 ~ 30 feet. And the situation dictates my actions. I'm smart enough to secure cover if it is available, but I'm not going to back up much to find it.

Digiroc

[Tamara]

...countless shootings were non-fatal hits convinced the bad guy to go away or reset the OODA loop and/or physical condition enough that the bad guy's ability to effectively stay in the fight was greatly diminished until a fatal hit was achieved.

True, that's the way to bet. But if I were going strictly on the way to bet, I'd leave the gun at home.

Likewise, in the city in which I live, I'm unaware of any misses by a good guy striking the proverbial school bus full of nuns & orphans en route to a trial lawyers convention, but that doesn't mean I'm going to cease caring about my backstop.

"Fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics," as the aphorism goes.

[Hambo]

I disagree, and do so based on countless shootings were non-fatal hits convinced the bad guy to go away or reset the OODA loop and/or physical condition enough that the bad guy's ability to effectively stay in the fight was greatly diminished until a fatal hit was achieved.

I have two thoughts on this, one in agreement and one not. First is that if someone is shooting at you and you don't have the target presentation you want, shoot what they give you. The best visual example I can think of is N. Hollywood and the LAPD SWAT guy shooting under the car and putting rounds into the legs/pelvis of the BG. The non-agreement part is that a lot of people haven't noticed they were shot until after the fight was over, or they haven't died until they shot the shit out of their opponent.

[TDA]

"Fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics," as the aphorism goes.

"I started to move for my safety and one of them fired a shot," he said, pointing to a hole in the back of the cash register. "So I pulled out my 9mm Taurus with the 17-bullet magazine and started firing until it jammed. And they ran out like cockroaches." -Local shopkeeper circa 2013.

[Kyle Reese]

"I started to move for my safety and one of them fired a shot," he said, pointing to a hole in the back of the cash register. "So I pulled out my 9mm Taurus with the 17-bullet magazine and started firing until it jammed. And they ran out like cockroaches." -Local shopkeeper circa 2013.
So he got off one or two rounds, then?

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The magic tricks of deception and distraction coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action and behavior dictates advancing in a supremely menacing manner, after all my intent is to kill without mercy and thus will show none.

Since you will be in this situation because your opponent has already threatened you with lethal force, what makes you think that you will make such a threat poop their pants and stand there frozen as you advance?

Next, if you have any knowledge at all about civilian doctrines, you are attempting to stop the threat, not kill as a goal. Stating on the Internet that you will kill without mercy, will look wonderful if your incident is ambiguous and the law doesn't buy into your rationale for uber-aggressive killing.

Why do I bother to comment? I really don't know, some folks are hopeless.

[Tamara]

As this is the "History of Defensive Techniques" I stand as a throwback to that history I suppose. It's also in "Mindset and Tactics", so that is a primary focus for my outdated tactics. The magic tricks of deception and distraction coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action and behavior dictates advancing in a supremely menacing manner, after all my intent is to kill without mercy and thus will show none.

The suspect of my laser focus is disarmed (not literally, although showing down the weapon or killing me would be the only way to stop my attack)) by my uber aggression, and a retreat, no matter how small, is not part of my program at that point. This all pertains to an open field of fire and at least some distance say 25 ~ 30 feet. And the situation dictates my actions. I'm smart enough to secure cover if it is available, but I'm not going to back up much to find it.

"This all pertains to an open field of fire and at least some distance say 25 ~ 30 feet"? :confused:

I thought this was for somebody so up close you had to make "snap shots" from the hip? Now you're making two quick snap shots from the hip at eight or ten yards? I'm glad, however, that you know in advance how your DGU is going to play out. Most folks don't get the script ahead of time.

As for the rest, the whole "uber aggression", "supremely menacing", "kill without mercy", yadda yadda, blah blah, et cetera? That is just so much internet gun forum fapping that I'm feeling a little awkward for you. Either you're trolling, or don't have the self-awareness to be embarrassed by typing that Mack Bolan stuff.

[Tamara]

Next, if you have any knowledge at all about civilian doctrines, you are attempting to stop the threat, not kill as a goal. Stating on the Internet that you will kill without mercy, will look wonderful if your incident is ambiguous and the law doesn't buy into your rationale for uber-aggressive killing.

Thank you, Glenn.

[Mitch]

As for the rest, the whole "uber aggression", "supremely menacing", "kill without mercy", yadda yadda, blah blah, et cetera? That is just so much internet gun forum fapping that I'm feeling a little awkward for you. Either you're trolling, or don't have the self-awareness to be embarrassed by typing that Mack Bolan stuff.
He has to be trolling. Has to. Come on, under cover with the KKK and outlaw biker gangs? Okay...

[TDA]

10048

[Paul Sharp]

Gunkid rides again!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jared]

True, that's the way to bet. But if I were going strictly on the way to bet, I'd leave the gun at home.

Likewise, in the city in which I live, I'm unaware of any misses by a good guy striking the proverbial school bus full of nuns & orphans en route to a trial lawyers convention, but that doesn't mean I'm going to cease caring about my backstop.

"Fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics," as the aphorism goes.

I have a co-worker whose daughter was struck by a stray bullet recently (not from a defensive shooting). Fortunately, the girl is fine, the round (rifle) came from a long distance away and expended almost all of its remaining energy penetrating two walls before striking the child. Still, the incident is very fresh in my mind, and since I'm a new father of a baby girl, it strikes a very sensitive nerve for me.

Edited: I had more here, but decided to cut it to this, and it is not directed at you Tam, cause I know you already know...

Misses will hit something. The consequences of what they hit can be horrifying. That's my single biggest problem with all these derpy point shooting and hip shooting posts. Yes, they are suboptimal for defending yourself, but once those bullets miss their intended target, they keep on going, and they will hit something. This is the single greatest argument I can make for aimed shots. Much better to aim and hit the bad guy than start slinging lead willy nilly and put a slug in someones child that wasn't doing anything except playing with their sister (or brother)

[gringop]

Pistol packing peril precipitously posed in propinquity to a Piasecki!!!!!

Zounds! I need print of that for my man cave wall of art!

Gringop


10048

[HCM]

Since you will be in this situation because your opponent has already threatened you with lethal force, what makes you think that you will make such a threat poop their pants and stand there frozen as you advance?

Next, if you have any knowledge at all about civilian doctrines, you are attempting to stop the threat, not kill as a goal. Stating on the Internet that you will kill without mercy, will look wonderful if your incident is ambiguous and the law doesn't buy into your rationale for uber-aggressive killing.

Why do I bother to comment? I really don't know, some folks are hopeless.

Glenn talks modesty and reason, but here he is in action ;-)

10051

[RJ]

10048


"Hearing the whimper of the blonde over the slowing wupwupwup of the rotor blades, I advanced towards the threat in a supremely menacing manner. My intent was to kill without mercy and thus would show none.

One mook surpised me, so I drew from my Serpa and dropped him where he stood.

Moving slowly to the other skell...my trick of deception and distraction, coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action, caused his nerve synapses to freeze completely. I quickly aligned my finger in old Brownies point and shoot technique from 25 yards and blazed him a pathway to hell...

The blonde fell into my arms in relief..."




I really wanted to be a writer when I was growing up. :cool:

[Tamara]

I swooned a little.

[Hambo]

"Hearing the whimper of the blonde over the slowing wupwupwup of the rotor blades, I advanced towards the threat in a supremely menacing manner. My intent was to kill without mercy and thus would show none.

One mook surpised me, so I drew from my Serpa and dropped him where he stood.

Moving slowly to the other skell...my trick of deception and distraction, coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action, caused his nerve synapses to freeze completely. I quickly aligned my finger in old Brownies point and shoot technique from 25 yards and blazed him a pathway to hell...

The blonde fell into my arms in relief..."

I really wanted to be a writer when I was growing up. :cool:

Umm...while I can see your natural talent, you chose a more practical career.

[Joe in PNG]

As Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth'.
As Von Moltke said, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"
And as Ike said, "Before a battle, planning is everything. Once the fighting has begun, it is worthless".

[LSP972]

I quickly aligned my finger in old Brownies point and shoot technique from 25 yards and blazed him a pathway to hell...
"

I suppose he's writing about that point & shoot dipstick? In a Mack-Something novel? Sorry, I'm doped up big time waiting for an operation, so I cannot remember a bunch of things. But I used to read Mack Bolan (hey, I remembered!) paperbacks, a bloody LONG time ago. And whoever wrote that was too smart to use "Brownie".

That must be a new writing about Bolan, eh? Kool drawing, though.

.








I really wanted to be a writer when I was growing up. :cool:

[Tamara]

Sorry, I'm doped up big time waiting for an operation

Get well soon! (It must be the good stuff; it sure messed up your blockquote skiils. ;) )

[NickA]

As Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth'.
As Von Moltke said, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"
And as Ike said, "Before a battle, planning is everything. Once the fighting has begun, it is worthless".
And as Mr. Parker said, "I think a plan is just a list of things that don't happen."

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[11B10]

As this is the "History of Defensive Techniques" I stand as a throwback to that history I suppose. It's also in "Mindset and Tactics", so that is a primary focus for my outdated tactics. The magic tricks of deception and distraction coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action and behavior dictates advancing in a supremely menacing manner, after all my intent is to kill without mercy and thus will show none.

The suspect of my laser focus is disarmed (not literally, although showing down the weapon or killing me would be the only way to stop my attack)) by my uber aggression, and a retreat, no matter how small, is not part of my program at that point. This all pertains to an open field of fire and at least some distance say 25 ~ 30 feet. And the situation dictates my actions. I'm smart enough to secure cover if it is available, but I'm not going to back up much to find it.

Digiroc



I'm sure I won't be the only one who tells you this. Do you ever think about what you're putting on the internet before you post it? In particular, the last sentence of your 1st paragraph above could be used to hammer the nails in your jail-for-many-years coffin by any competent prosecutor. There is NO WAY you can bring those words back - I hope and pray that for your sake and the future of your family that you are never faced with the possibility of using lethal force.

[11B10]

"Hearing the whimper of the blonde over the slowing wupwupwup of the rotor blades, I advanced towards the threat in a supremely menacing manner. My intent was to kill without mercy and thus would show none.

One mook surpised me, so I drew from my Serpa and dropped him where he stood.

Moving slowly to the other skell...my trick of deception and distraction, coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action, caused his nerve synapses to freeze completely. I quickly aligned my finger in old Brownies point and shoot technique from 25 yards and blazed him a pathway to hell...

The blonde fell into my arms in relief..."




I really wanted to be a writer when I was growing up. :cool:





Rich - it's not too late! Go for it - you've got the gift.

[John Hearne]

First, let's go easy on the Mack Bolan. Some stuff from my youth is sacred and you are treading on hollowed ground. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's holding a Beretta 93R or the .44 Automag in that picture. I'm a stickler for detail. :)

Regarding Ike's comments, he's also credited with "I have always found that plans are useless but planning is indispensable."

[Lex Luthier]

"Hearing the whimper of the blonde over the slowing wupwupwup of the rotor blades, I advanced towards the threat in a supremely menacing manner. My intent was to kill without mercy and thus would show none.

One mook surpised me, so I drew from my Serpa and dropped him where he stood.

Moving slowly to the other skell...my trick of deception and distraction, coupled with the complete change in that instant to hyper aggressive action, caused his nerve synapses to freeze completely. I quickly aligned my finger in old Brownies point and shoot technique from 25 yards and blazed him a pathway to hell...

The blonde fell into my arms in relief..."




I really wanted to be a writer when I was growing up. :cool:

Ever looked at the mystery section of the annual Bulwer-Lytton fiction contest? One could have some real fun, there.

[RJ]

Rich - it's not too late! Go for it - you've got the gift.

Ha!

Hey I was just riffing on the picture and some of the ah, content, publicly posted in this thread. Kinda fun though. :cool:

Yeah, I'm glad I realized after one semester in the School of Architecture at UVa that 1) I really had no talent and 2) I really liked math. I've been happy I transferred to the E school ever since.

But you know, since I retired, I've contemplated writing for fun. I like words, too. I've even done some iambic pentameter in silly moments. Probably all that Doctor Seuss my mom read to me as a kid...:)

[frozentundra]

This thread could have been an awesome resource with tons of good information and relevant links. Too bad it turned into the ritualistic curb stomping of timeless and invincible stupidity. It's like watching a bunch of people try to flatten a steel bowling ball with their shoes.



Rich is an awesome writer though. :cool:

[JAD]

I've even done some iambic pentameter in silly moments. Probably all that Doctor Seuss my mom read to me as a kid...:)

If crosswords are intellectual calisthenics, writing sonnets is deadlifting.

[RJ]

If crosswords are intellectual calisthenics, writing sonnets is deadlifting.

Well, hell, since you asked. :cool:

"The Path"

5 March 2011

"Rebirthed anew in wonder blessed,
trudging softly at life's behest,
met I a Traveller on the road,
clothed like me in raiment old.

Blue eyes beheld me, her features soft.
"Hold," said she, small hand aloft;
"Time to heal, look towards the Path;
The years are By; leave your wrath."

"Away," she said, and turned her head,
Our Way on sunlit trail ahead.
We began to walk, not far apart;
Her voice I heard within my heart.

We ventured far through sun and snow,
at whiles though wind did fiercely blow.
At end, array'd in shades of green,
His Path was clear, no doubt foreseen.

Now, forever in Light anew,
With God's fair wind and heaven's blue,
Here with her in ages past,
Endless lives; at peace, at last."

[pax]

frozentundra,

Thanks for the link to the Hackathorn interview. I enjoyed it.

Kathy

[LSP972]

First, let's go easy on the Mack Bolan. "

Oh, I was not complaining about Mack; I've read a bunch of the original ones. Good stuff, good gun detail (for the most part, anyway). This new stuff? Not impressive, according to that brief.

Damn; I know things are bad when I get annoyed by stuff like that.

.

[LSP972]

Get well soon! (It must be the good stuff; it sure messed up your blockquote skiils. ;) )

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

[HCM]

First, let's go easy on the Mack Bolan. Some stuff from my youth is sacred and you are treading on hollowed ground. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's holding a Beretta 93R or the .44 Automag in that picture. I'm a stickler for detail. :)

Regarding Ike's comments, he's also credited with "I have always found that plans are useless but planning is indispensable."

Don't forget Phoenix Force, or my personal favorite, Able Team.

[HCM]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

Get well !

[JAD]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

Glioblastoma?

My sister in law is a six year survivor. Fight hard. Prayers inbound, or outbound really.

[Wondering Beard]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

Take care of yourself and get well soon.

We're pulling for you.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

10059

Thanks, HCM - unfortunately, I look something like that. LOL. So here I am in a better view saving a baby at Given's conference. Marty Hayes took the picture. It was on one of Tom's newsletters way back.

Gun - Gen 2 Glock 19. One of my EDC.

[11B10]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.




We're all praying for ya!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ditto on that!

[HCM]

10059

Thanks, HCM - unfortunately, I look something like that. LOL. So here I am in a better view saving a baby at Given's conference. Marty Hayes took the picture. It was on one of Tom's newsletters way back.

Gun - Gen 2 Glock 19. One of my EDC.

Since we are discussing creative writing in this thread I FIFY:


So here I am in a better view saving a baby from a pack of Dingos at Given's conference :-)

[RJ]

Take care of yourself and get well soon.

We're pulling for you.

+ like a million.

Best wishes and Get Well Soon LSP.

[Hambo]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

That blows. I'll offer my prayers for you.

[Tamara]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head.

I just checked my old anatomy textbooks. They say nothing in your noggin is supposed to be bigger than a tennis ball other than your brain.

Props to your docs for getting that shit out. All best thoughts for a speedy recovery.

[1slow]

Best wishes and prayers.

[rsa-otc]

First, let's go easy on the Mack Bolan. Some stuff from my youth is sacred and you are treading on hollowed ground. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's holding a Beretta 93R or the .44 Automag in that picture. I'm a stickler for detail. :)

Regarding Ike's comments, he's also credited with "I have always found that plans are useless but planning is indispensable."

Mack Bolan, God that brings back memories of my youth.

[rsa-otc]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

LSP972, My prayers and thoughts for your speedy recovery.

God bless.
Scott

[scw2]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

Prayers for a smooth and speedy recovery!

[Malamute]

Prayers and best wishes to get through this as quickly and safely as possible.

[Jared]

LSP,

You will be in my thoughts. Very sorry to hear about your condition.

[BCL]

LSP, you are in my thoughts and prayers. Good luck on the operation and get well soon!

[LSP972]

Mucho thanks, everybody. There is not many of the things ever discovered, they said.

The op is @ 1500 tomorrow. They'll keep me down about 18 hours, some way to keep me motionless so my left side skull pieces will stick together long enough to begin the heal. Man... This is really weird. I won't "wake up" until some point Thursday. No clue how long it will take me to get back into life, if you will.

Damn sure won't be using the Sordins for a while, eh?��

Thanks again for your thoughts. Unless I get a bit of time tomorrow morning, I'll check back in next week sometime... Hopefully.

.

[Tamara]

Thanks again for your thoughts. Unless I get a bit of time tomorrow morning, I'll check back in next week sometime... Hopefully.

We'll catch you on the flip side. You've got this shit handled.

[MichaelD]

Get well quick, LSP. Kick cancer's butt.

[AMC]

Damn. Rest up and may you have some kick ass dreams while you're under. Like, epic, Bronson-Brenner-McQueen-Vaughn version of The Expendables awesome. Wait....I think they did that....

[Leroy Suggs]

LSP I am so sorry to hear this.
I wish you well and a speedy recovery.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

Heal quickly. Look forward to your return.

[Wondering Beard]

Mucho thanks, everybody. There is not many of the things ever discovered, they said.

The op is @ 1500 tomorrow. They'll keep me down about 18 hours, some way to keep me motionless so my left side skull pieces will stick together long enough to begin the heal. Man... This is really weird. I won't "wake up" until some point Thursday. No clue how long it will take me to get back into life, if you will.

Damn sure won't be using the Sordins for a while, eh?��

Thanks again for your thoughts. Unless I get a bit of time tomorrow morning, I'll check back in next week sometime... Hopefully.

.

Heal fast, take it easy, we'll all be here for you when you get back.

[Duelist]

Fair winds, LSP972.

[Al T.]

Prayers and best wishes buddy.

[okie john]

Hang in there.


Okie John

[Mr_White]

Just saw this, days late. Best wishes to you LSP972. Good luck, and recover well!

[LHS]

Girl you don't know the half of it. I've got a Grade Four bluisgastoma(?) the size of a frigging tennis ball in my head. I'll look like FrankenStein when they finish... :-)

.

You should get tattoos of bolts on the side of your neck after they cut that thing out. In for a penny, in for a pound!

[Trooper224]

Sending prayers your way brother.

[Lester Polfus]

LSP972, best wishes and hopes for a speedy recovery.

[Lester Polfus]

Am I the only one on here that knows that Phil Elmore wrote some of the more recent Mac Bolan novels?

[Tamara]

Am I the only one on here that knows that Phil Elmore wrote some of the more recent Mac Bolan novels?

10099

[Lester Polfus]

10099


I would have thought they would have a computer program writing them by now but I guess Phil is cheaper?

http://www.mackbolan.com/author.php3?name=Phil%20Elmore

[TDA]

So he got off one or two rounds, then?

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

Now that LSP972 is back in action and it's not in bad taste, I'll tell you that it was either 2 or 3 rounds before the jam. Killed his CCTV monitor, the lotto machine, and a drink cooler, but two of those were probably the same round.

[LSP972]

I appreciate all the concerns/comments. I'm not "back in action"- not yet, anyway. Still weak, but getting better every day (been 9 days now since the hack job).

The chancre mechanics who carved me are worried that I might have a seizure. No shit? Really? Like that frigging MATTERS now, with a left temporal lobe full of cancer??? What a hoot, eh?😂

Ah, I'm sure they mean well. But I'll be ready to drive, practice shoot, and fly my radio control model airplanes next week. SIX weeks, minimum, before I can do that. Sigh.

Anyway... Thanks again for all the support. No idea how long I'll last... but I'll be kicking to the end.:cool:

In the meantime... Lots of good thread info lately. The 1911 thread sure has had me thinking.

.

[Lex Luthier]

I appreciate all the concerns/comments. I'm not "back in action"- not yet, anyway. Still weak, but getting better every day (been 9 days now since the hack job).

The chancre mechanics who carved me are worried that I might have a seizure. No shit? Really? Like that frigging MATTERS now, with a left temporal lobe full of cancer??? What a hoot, eh?��

Ah, I'm sure they mean well. But I'll be ready to drive, practice shoot, and fly my radio control model airplanes next week. SIX weeks, minimum, before I can do that. Sigh.

Anyway... Thanks again for all the support. No idea how long I'll last... but I'll be kicking to the end.:cool:

In the meantime... Lots of good thread info lately. The 1911 thread sure has had me thinking.

.

The devil will be ready to get his kick in the ass when you are ready to give it. Heal well.

[TDA]

Sorry, not "back in action" but I guess I meant I'm happy to see you up and typing. It's a win.

Maybe we can circle back to Kathy's question and give you something entertaining to read in the meantime. I did read Elmer Kieth's books, and they do really lay out the lessons that came out of the civil war and the indian wars about using single action revolvers from horseback.
I want to say the first edition of Sixguns by Kieth was roughly contemporaneous with a couple of other interesting books I've read; Rap Sheetby Blackie Audett and Crooks are Human Too by Daniel J. Campion. Audett was a motor bandit and escape artist, and Campion was the head of the NYPD's pickpocket and confidence squad.
Neither of these guys have anything to say about gear.
It seems like it just wasn't in their minds at that time, they got away or they didn't, they caught the guy or they didn't. Possibly Campion is a bit of a special case, as he was a boxer specializing in apprehending pickpockets, and he'd be right up on his guy on a subway platform or at a racetrack. Then he'd knock them out.
All this while FairbIrn and Sykes are doing their thing in interwar Shanghai...
Next we get into the WW2 literature, where they mostly still don't talk much about whatever gun they have...

[RJ]

I appreciate all the concerns/comments. I'm not "back in action"- not yet, anyway. Still weak, but getting better every day (been 9 days now since the hack job).


.

That is fucking outstanding news.