Bore axis / grip angle / head tilt / visual acuity

[Clusterfrack]

About 6 months ago, I switched from Glocks to the Sig 320 for competition and carry because of the reports of better accuracy and trigger. However, I was concerned that the higher bore axis would be a disadvantage. Also, I was curious about how the steeper grip angle would affect my shooting. I've discovered some unexpected effects related to vision and decided to start a thread on this topic.

I found that I held my head more erect with a Sig than with a Glock. My head position with a Glock is more "turtled". The reason is that the sight height relative to my face is lower with a Glock because: 1) the bore axis and sight height are lower, and 2) the greater rake of the Glock's grip further lowers the sight height because my wrists are rotated downward.

This is the interesting part: I discovered that my vision seemed sharper while shooting the Sig--especially in low light. Here's what I think is going on: we see best when our eyes are centered. This is even more important if we wear glasses with corrective lenses.

I'm curious if anyone else finds this to be the case. If you want to participate, download and print the Snellen Test chart (https://www.provisu.ch/Age/Snellenchart_en.pdf) (make sure to print it at 100%). View it at 3 yards using corrective lenses if you shoot with them.

1. Cover non-dominant eye, tilt chin down.
2. Cover non-dominant eye, keep head erect, looking straight forward.


Report results (1-11 score and 20/x vision rating):

Wearing corrective lenses (Yes/No):
Chin tilted down:
Chin not tilted down:


Take the poll:

Tilting my head down DECREASED my visual acuity
Tilting my head down INCREASED my visual acuity
Tilting my head down had NO EFFECT on my visual acuity



Let's discuss once we have some data.

[Clusterfrack]

Here's a comparison of Dave Sevigny with a Glock and Max Michel with a Sig 320:
http://ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Dave-Sevigny-Team-Glock.jpg http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Max-P320-2-450x450.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Wearing corrective lenses: Yes
Chin tilted down: 7, 20/25
Chin not tilted down: 8, 20/20

Wearing corrective lenses: No
Chin tilted down: 6, 20/30
Chin not tilted down: 7, 20/25

[Ntexwheels]

I've never ducked or turtled my head to line up my sights. I'm a firm believer in and I teach others to bring the weapon up to your line of sight, keep the head erect. It makes for a much more natural and comfortable shooting position.
Of course I'm not famous or anything, but Jerry Miculek is and he preaches the same thing.

[HCountyGuy]

I wish people would quit parroting this high bore axis nonsense.

Does it make sense on paper? Sure, to a degree.

However, when you compare how little difference there really is with pistols and then start testing, it's so minimal it's rather insignificant.

There's plenty of people utilizing a stock or very lightly modified P320 in competition and beating out guys with $1000+ worth of upgrades dumped into their guns.

[JV_]

Here's a comparison of Dave Sevigny with a Glock and Max Michel with a Sig 320:

For top level shooters that switch between open/optics and irons, like Max, do they tend use the open/upright stance for both types of guns?

FWIW: Insights / John Holschen was a big proponent of keeping your head more upright, rather than tilting/turtling, because you have better vision when looking straight on. He was teaching with an RDS at the time.

[NCmtnman]

Without downloading the chart I can tell you that I too noticed the same head position when I went from shooting an HK P2000 back to a Glock. I am more 'turtled' while shooting the Glock and I also struggle to lock my wrist on the Glock unless I am at almost full extension. I shoot with more control and better visual awareness about 2' inches from full extension and in a head up position.

[Irelander]

Its funny...I've just been experimenting with this. I shoot Glocks. For a long time my index has been both arms straight and head turtled and chin down. I saw a video from Mike Pannone a while ago that said to try and keep the sights centered in your vision. His point was that with your head tilted down most of your vision is pointed down and you are not maximizing your field of view. I find it easier to bring the gun up higher if I bend my arms slightly. I have been trying to train myself to keep my head erect and bring the gun to my line of sight. However, my standard flinch response is tucked and turtled. I will print out the chart and report back.

[CCT125US]

8, 20/20
Lenses from an Optometrist who is a shooter, that spent a good amount of time correcting my vision.

Straight ahead vs. tilted made no difference. However, I do make it a point to hold my chin parallel to my line of sight.

[PNWTO]

No real difference but being 6'5" or better depending on footwear has taught me to really align myself by bending at the waist while being heads up and orientating my "turret". I guess we did "heads up" in the Corps with the M9 so that may be enough posture to stick.

Especially when so many target stands cater to hobits... ;)

[Mr_White]

I found that I held my head more erect with a Sig than with a Glock. My head position with a Glock is more "turtled". The reason is that the sight height relative to my face is lower with a Glock because: 1) the bore axis and sight height are lower, and 2) the greater rake of the Glock's grip further lowers the sight height because my wrists are rotated downward.

I need to think about this part some more. I may be missing something really duh and if so - oops and sorry. But how can the sight height be lower, relative to your eyes, with one gun vs. another (assuming the same target of course), unless you are looking over the sights with one gun and looking through the sights with the other gun? I can see how the rest of the gun is lower relative to your face and there will be differences in arm/hand/wrist height and angles, but if you are seeing a sight picture in the eye target line, mustn't the sights be the same height no matter the gun, since that height will be defined by the eye-target line?

Regardless of that, I completely agree about better vision with a more upright head and eyes pointing out the center of the sockets, even more with glasses, and even more so with small lens glasses.

Snellen Test:

Report results (1-11 score and 20/x vision rating):

Wearing corrective lenses (Yes/No): Yes, single vision eyeglasses for nearsightedness. Without correction, objects start getting blurry about five inches from my eyes. Same glasses I wear all the time, including during all shooting.

Chin tilted down: 9, does not list 20/x (8 is 20/20)
Chin not tilted down: 10, does not list 20/x (8 is 20/20)

During the chin tilted down test, I kept the line I was trying to read right at the top edge of my glasses. I actually had to stop and take a very short rest before doing the last line because I started to get a lot of eye strain. That strain didn't happen when I did the chin not tilted down test.

[Clusterfrack]

I need to think about this part some more. I may be missing something really duh and if so - oops and sorry. But how can the sight height be lower, relative to your eyes, with one gun vs. another (assuming the same target of course), unless you are looking over the sights with one gun and looking through the sights with the other gun? I can see how the rest of the gun is lower relative to your face and there will be differences in arm/hand/wrist height and angles, but if you are seeing a sight picture in the eye target line, mustn't the sights be the same height no matter the gun, since that height will be defined by the eye-target line?

Regardless of that, I completely agree about better vision with a more upright head and eyes pointing out the center of the sockets, even more with glasses, and even more so with small lens glasses.

Snellen Test:

Report results (1-11 score and 20/x vision rating):

Wearing corrective lenses (Yes/No): Yes, single vision eyeglasses for nearsightedness. Without correction, objects start getting blurry about five inches from my eyes. Same glasses I wear all the time, including during all shooting.

Chin tilted down: 9, does not list 20/x (8 is 20/20)
Chin not tilted down: 10, does not list 20/x (8 is 20/20)

During the chin tilted down test, I kept the line I was trying to read right at the top edge of my glasses. I actually had to stop and take a very short rest before doing the last line because I started to get a lot of eye strain. That strain didn't happen when I did the chin not tilted down test.

I could have been clearer about this part, Gabe. What I'm trying to describe is: when my arms are in my ideal isosceles position, the Glock geometry causes the sights to be lower than with the Sig. I have two options: a slight turtle of my head to bring my eyes in line with the sights, or a change in my arm position to bring the sights up to my eyes. I've experimented with the latter and do not find that works well for me because my arms are in an uncomfortable and awkward position.

[Mr_White]

I could have been clearer about this part, Gabe. What I'm trying to describe is: when my arms are in my ideal isosceles position, the Glock geometry causes the sights to be lower than with the Sig. I have two options: a slight turtle of my head to bring my eyes in line with the sights, or a change in my arm position to bring the sights up to my eyes. I've experimented with the latter and do not find that works well for me because my arms are in an uncomfortable and awkward position.

Ok that makes total sense, now I follow. Thanks!

[JHC]

Ok that makes total sense, now I follow. Thanks!

I'm still lost. I'm finding zero correlation to my ideal iso hold and wether my head is upright or turtled forward.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm still lost. I'm finding zero correlation to my ideal iso hold and wether my head is upright or turtled forward.

Try this:

Press your empty hands together with thumbs up. Aim through the V between your thumbs at something at head height. This is what it's like when I'm aiming with the Sig (but more exaggerated).

Now rotate your wrists as far as they will go, so your thumbs are facing forward. Now aim through the V between your thumbs at the same object. You should have to turtle your head and/or change the way your arms are presented. This is what it's like when I'm aiming with my Glocks.

[breakingtime91]

Wouldn't it just be easier to shoot the way your head goes naturally?

[FNFAN]

I wish people would quit parroting this high bore axis nonsense.

Does it make sense on paper? Sure, to a degree.

However, when you compare how little difference there really is with pistols and then start testing, it's so minimal it's rather insignificant.

Looking at the height above bore axis it would seem to make sense, but then you have folks like Bruce Gray saying it makes little or no difference even way before the 320. My work requires Glocks so that's what I recreate with making it a moot point for me.

As soon as I can out-gun Mr. Gray I may give it serious consideration.:p

[BehindBlueI's]

Wouldn't it just be easier to shoot the way your head goes naturally?

I duck my head when I shoot because I know I duck my head when I get shot at. It's easier for me to adapt my shooting to my startle response than try to adapt my startle response to my shooting.

[DacoRoman]

Doing the tactical turtle and using one's superior field of vision, both poor techniques I would argue, are issues completely independent of grip angle and bore axis in my humble opinion.

Keeping ones face square with the target and using the central visual fields of one's vision can be done all day, every day, with a Glock. You just keep your face square to the target and bring the gun up into your line of vision, without lowering your head, turtling, or flexing your head down forcing you to look through the tops of your glasses.

What may potentially help though is to relax the elbows down a tad and elevate the pistol up a tad, ala Frank Proctor.

[Clusterfrack]

A few more thoughts:

I want to underscore that I'm not talking about "tactical turtle": http://www.gunnuts.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tactical-turtle-stance.png

I think grip angle and wrist position have more of an effect than bore axis. Fully extended wrists drop the height of the sights by an inch or more.

While in theory, one could adjust arms and shoulders, the top USPSA Glock shooters appear to tilt their head and view their sights more through the top of their visual field. Compare Vogel with a Glock to Stoeger with a Tanfo:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/yes+202010+2031283536488.jpg http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Ben-Stoeger.jpg?5e971e

I would like to see the data from the person who clicked "Tilting my head down INCREASED my visual acuity" :)

[DacoRoman]

In the pictures above it looks to me that Stoeger has a bit more downward head tilt compared to Vogel, and is looking through the top of his visual field just a bit more, actually.

[David S.]

In the pictures above it looks to me that Stoeger has a bit more downward head tilt compared to Vogel, and is looking through the top of his visual field just a bit more, actually.

Yes, but those pictures are single snapshot in time that may or may not accurately represent anything at all. I don't know.
Do Vogel or Stoeger consider those head positions ideal in general, ideal for that particular circumstance, or just what they happened to be in when the shot was taken?

Cheers,
D

[David S.]

Personally, I learned the chin down and hunched shoulders (semi- tactical turtle) early in my pistol shooting life. I'm trying like heck to unlearn it. Somehow, switching from lefty to righty was easy. Weaver to modified isosceles: no problem. Learning to shoot with erect shoulders, neck and head: kicking my butt.

I find the chin down, hunched shoulders posture creates tension in my elbows, shoulders and back that prevents my body from effectively absorbing recoil. This means all recoil is absorbed by my hands and even the wimpy 9mm breaks my support hand grip. I think upper torso tension is naturally reduced when I shoot a more upright posture. If there is a benefit to visual acuity, I currently consider it secondary (once again, for me) to the above consideration.

I'm not sure how this will play out if I'm ever, God forbid, high stress deadly force encounter. I'm guessing that I'd devolve into the full on tactical turtle. I'm not too concerned about it at this point in my training. I can figure that out after I master some sort of square-range technique.

I welcome any critique of the above thought process if it's not too far off topic.

Cheers,
D

[JHC]

[QUOTE=David S.;402618]Personally, I learned the chin down and hunched shoulders (semi- tactical turtle) early in my pistol shooting life. I'm trying like heck to unlearn it. Somehow, switching from lefty to righty was easy. Weaver to modified isosceles: no problem. Learning to shoot with erect shoulders, neck and head: kicking my butt.

I find the chin down, hunched shoulders posture creates tension in my elbows, shoulders and back that prevents my body from effectively absorbing recoil. This means all recoil is absorbed by my hands and even the wimpy 9mm breaks my support hand grip. I think upper torso tension is naturally reduced when I shoot a more upright posture. If there is a benefit to visual acuity, I currently consider it secondary (once again, for me) to the above consideration.

I'm not sure how this will play out if I'm ever, God forbid, high stress deadly force encounter. I'm guessing that I'd devolve into the full on tactical turtle. I'm not too concerned about it at this point in my training. I can figure that out after I master some sort of square-range technique.

I welcome any critique of the above thought process if it's not too far off topic.
Cheers, [QUOTE]

Same here, I learned it and it's not easily been unlearnt. I've worked it. I haven't found a difference I could measure that is more important that good grip and very good trigger press. For speed relatively closer I'll take recoil control over an "nth" difference in acuity.

[JHC]

Try this:

Press your empty hands together with thumbs up. Aim through the V between your thumbs at something at head height. This is what it's like when I'm aiming with the Sig (but more exaggerated).

Now rotate your wrists as far as they will go, so your thumbs are facing forward. Now aim through the V between your thumbs at the same object. You should have to turtle your head and/or change the way your arms are presented. This is what it's like when I'm aiming with my Glocks.

Oh OK. I dunno if it's a mandatory face thing. Vogel in the pic is not turtled. I like the wrists cammed forward very much for all the reasons Surf has detailed in his vids.

[ubervic]

Interesting thread.

I shoot Sig SP2022, but on my last range visit I shot a buddy's Glock 22 and 27. While the grip angle was quite different with the Glocks, of course, I noticed zero difference in my body position or head-tilt relative to line of sight vs target.

[Surf]

I shoot the Glock and the P320 quite a bit, often back to back in same shooting sessions. The only difference for me is my natural index with the pistol. I am more Glock biased at the moment so when I present with the P320 I really need to take a bit more time confirming the sights as my index is more muzzle down due to wrist rotation. When I was shooting the P320 almost exclusively for a couple of weeks, this entire index was reversed when I went back to the Glock which was now more muzzle up. Again this was all wrist mechanics, however my head and body position remain unchanged.

What I do find with the full sized P320 9mm and the G17 is that the added weight of the P320 soaked up more recoil and had a bit softer of a hit. I know that it is only 9mm and the recoil is a G17 is no big deal, but what I found especially in running strings of fire especially in the double digit to full magazine range at full throttle, I needed to work a bit less with the P320. So maybe you find yourself needing to get behind the Glock a bit more?

As for my body position, they are the same. Head and eyes up, no hunching or rolling of the shoulders. The only time I find myself moving into a poor body position where I am rolled forward is when I am getting tired, lazy and I find myself getting more weight bias shifting towards my heels and I compensate with hunching. I also at times find myself doing this on a rifle transition and how the rifle is slung can affect my body position. No excuses as I shouldn't do it, but it does happen. However as a normal body position in general things remain the same from pistol to pistol or wheel gun.

Eyesight affected with eye pro - Glasses or various forms of eye protection can affect vision when changing the angle or what part of the lens you are looking through.

Eyesight affected by body part shadow - Not sure on a correct term, but by this I mean if you look straight ahead you can probably see your nose, but it really isn't too much in your view or visual focus. You still have good two eyed binocular vision. Turn your head to the side and one eye really sees the nose and depending on where you are looking you may be really only seeing the object via one eye and losing binocular vision. Now the same thing can happen perhaps to a lesser extent with the brows of the eyes when you roll the head forward. This can also be a negative due to the optical effects of the eye pro. You also tend to put more stress on the eyes when hunched and with that fatigue bad things can happen with your vision over longer shooting sessions.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I naturally hunch/shrug in a little bit, but I definitely notice it more when I shoot the. Glock.

I work very hard to keep a good head up, facing forward position due to a combo of glasses and neck injury. It is a little more comfortable in a long session to shoot an HK or SIG, for me, than a Glock. I think it is because I'm fighting to maintain that balance between where it points well and where I can see optimally.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

I've never thought much about this subject, but after pondering it for a few days, I decided to go back through some of my videos and pics. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference for me.

These pics weren't taken for the the purpose of diagnosing head position, so the angle is slightly different in each, but they're the best comparative I can find. VP9 vs 19. Was shooting a DT target at 7 yards, and it looks like I was at a lower line with the VP9. I feel like if I was shooting at the same target height, there wouldn't be any difference. Then sometimes I look at them and it looks like my shoulders are higher and head tilted forward more with the glock.

And yes, I tend to shoot with my mouth open. I've also been seen dragging my knuckles.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1710/24504908140_e431db7c17_b.jpg

[rwa]

The angle your eyeball makes with a lens is called panoramic tilt. My vision improves dramatically when I tilt my chin down. Oviously, my eye glasses are out of adjustment. If you google images for any of the hot rock IPSC shooters you will notice thier head/shoulders will change a bit depending on the dynamics of the shooting situation. As for using the pick of Sevigny in post 2 as an example, keep in mind Dave is cross dominant with his vision.

[23JAZ]

I don't give a flying fuck if my chin is touching my nipples and my ear is touching my shoulder, as long my as the draw is fast and the shots are precisely on target, rock on!
IMHO, Try everything and use what works best for you.

[Hambo]

Corrected: 20/25 head up or down.
Uncorrected: 20/40 head up or down.

My head position is largely dictated by the lenses of my glasses. If I ducked down too much I'd be looking over them which is no bueno.

[GardoneVT]

(#nosarc)
Who cares?

[TAZ]

Not quite sure what bore axis has to do with head tilt. Visual acuity and head tilt are related, but by how much varies by individual or rx accuracy... Head tilt when switching between gun shapes is absolutely normal. Muscle memory from shooting brand X where your eyes align with the sights in a certain position means a subconscious movement of the head to align eyes with sights of brand Y using the same arm position. The fact that most of us have the bad habit of turtle-ing is another issue all together.

I'm with whoever said to use what works. If what you are doing works well for you who care if you are turtle-ing, licking your nose or whatever. Get rounds on target accurately and quickly.

[rwa]

Who cares? People that might be looking to improve or diagnose a problem might care. Then again, if your shooting is good enough to suit you, carry on.

[taadski]

I don't give a flying fuck if my chin is touching my nipples and my ear is touching my shoulder, as long my as the draw is fast and the shots are precisely on target, rock on!
IMHO, Try everything and use what works best for you.


It seems like the point of the thread is to help share "what works best for you" so that everyone else might be able to learn from it, get better, etc… One of the benefits of this place, no?





(#nosarc)
Who cares?

That seems like an odd comment from someone so interested in developing analytics for their own shooting.

#youshould ;)

[SLG]

Lately on pf there seems to be this anti-thought that its cooler if you dont sweat the small stuff.

I dont care if you dont care, so lets go to the range, or better yet, fof without padding, and see who is right, and who is dead. :-)

Bonus points if you get the obscure movie reference.

[GardoneVT]

It seems like the point of the thread is to help share "what works best for you" so that everyone else might be able to learn from it, get better, etc… One of the benefits of this place, no?



That seems like an odd comment from someone so interested in developing analytics for their own shooting.

#youshould ;)


While handguns and ammunition are somewhat standardized,human bodies aren't. As such ,given the variations of people and relevant characteristics the exact shooting posture which works for Rob Leatham may be totally unworkable for you and me.

It would be like trying to quantify the precise hand position which creates the best handgun performance. We all have different sized hands,so that's a nonstarter. I'm not trying to pee in the OPs Wheaties here,it's just that some shooting data points will by necessity have to be unique to the shooter.

[taadski]

Lately on pf there seems to be this anti-thought that its cooler if you dont sweat the small stuff.

I dont care if you dont care, so lets go to the range, or better yet, fof without padding, and see who is right, and who is dead. :-)

Bonus points if you get the obscure movie reference.



Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's?

[Mr_White]

Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's?

Beat me to it, but at least I can try to answer this one. I think SLG is the sort of man who would put the poison in his enemy's goblet and further away from himself, because in the Carbine vs. handgun thread he said in a duel he'd rather be at 100 yards using a pistol against a rifle - I'm making a big assumption that he'd apply the same principle to a battle of wits involving poison.

[taadski]

It would be like trying to quantify the precise hand position which creates the best handgun performance. We all have different sized hands, so that's a nonstarter. I'm not trying to pee in the OPs Wheaties here, it's just that some shooting data points will by necessity have to be unique to the shooter.


Yes. It would be very similar to that. :) Of course body types, etc… vary between shooters but that certainly doesn't mean it's a nonstarter. Assuming there are no parallels seems kinda foolish. There are a number of very skilled folks commenting in the thread. Seems like there may be something there to learn. ;)

I took your comment as exactly that, FWIW.

[taadski]

Beat me to it, but at least I can try to answer this one. I think SLG is the sort of man who would put the poison in his enemy's goblet and further away from himself, because in the Carbine vs. handgun thread he said in a duel he'd rather be at 100 yards using a pistol against a rifle - I'm making a big assumption that he'd apply the same principle to a battle of wits involving poison.



I have him pegged as the immunity/both glasses kind of guy. :D

[SLG]

T-man for the win!

Just to clarify, i was not directing my comment at anyone in particular, there have been several of these kinds of comments in various threads lately. Ive probably been guilty of it myself a time or two.

[Clusterfrack]

To me, this has been an interesting and productive discussion so far. (I eat Cap'n Crunch, so I don't care if anyone pees in Wheaties). My motivation was simply to explore something I observed, and to hear what others thought.

Here's what I've learned so far:

There are some data suggesting that people don't see as well while looking upward with chin tucked, but this doesn't appear to be a universal.

There seems to be general agreement that shooting with head erect is preferable, but other factors enter into the optimal position for each of us.

Some people shoot a bit "turtled", and some of those people also shoot Glocks. However, this doesn't appear to be linked. I've been exploring why I find it more comfortable to shoot my Sigs with head fully erect. It may be that I've had so much more experience with the Glock platform, and was able to escape that history when I moved to the Sig.

[zen_grasshopper]

No corrective lenses
Chin tilted down: line 10
Chin not tilted down: line 10