STG 44, I don't get it

[SecondsCount]

Maybe I am a bit too practical Guns America review (https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/new-stg-44-the-hill-and-mac-strumgewehr-shot-show-2016/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20160201_BlogDigest_157&utm_campaign=/blog/new-stg-44-the-hill-and-mac-strumgewehr-shot-show-2016/) $1,800 MSRP? Why?

I own a couple military rifles, an 03-A3, M1 Garand, and an SKS, as well as an AR-15 but I why would someone think it is a good idea to modify an ancient design that has very little for aftermarket support to take AR mags?

Is that a finger on the trigger?

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Hill-and-Mac-stg-7.jpg

[JodyH]

It's cool looking and would be a fun toy.
I've made many a purchase based on those two criteria.
:p

[NEPAKevin]

Anticipating a market for open carry neo-Nazis?

[LOKNLOD]

It's quite amazing that in 2016 America, a company believes there is enough market for a modified copy of an obsolete WW2 German assault rifle to be economically viable to produce.

Let that sink in a minute -- that's pretty awesome if you think about it.

[GardoneVT]

Anticipating a market for open carry neo-Nazis?

If you're gonna derp up the local food joint,you may as well do it steampunk style.

[SecondsCount]

It's cool looking and would be a fun toy.
I've made many a purchase based on those two criteria.
:p

I still won't own a Taurus Judge though. :p

[Gary1911A1]

It's cool looking and would be a fun toy.
I've made many a purchase based on those two criteria.
:p

I have too and I would like to have one just for the experience of shooting the first Assult Rife although it has been modified.

[NEPAKevin]

If you're gonna derp up the local food joint,you may as well do it steampunk style.

Wouldn't that be dieselpunk?

[GardoneVT]

Wouldn't that be dieselpunk?

I stand corrected.

[JodyH]

I might buy one just to live out my Castle Wolfenstein 3D fantasy.

[ReverendMeat]

I guess "because it's cool and looks like fun" is not a reasonable answer these days?

[MichaelD]

I don't think I'd count on it as a serious-use gun, but as a range toy? Oh yeah, that thing looks like fun.

[t1tan]

I'll take a suppressed FG-42 in .300BO

[Joe in PNG]

Kind of like buying the reissued version of a really powerful tube amp, say a Marshall Plexi or Ampeg SVT... because reasons.

[RevolverRob]

It's quite amazing that in 2016 America, a company believes there is enough market for a modified copy of an obsolete WW2 German assault rifle to be economically viable to produce.

Let that sink in a minute -- that's pretty awesome if you think about it.

I was pointing out to a friend the other day, who was talking about "going minimalist in my life" - How nice it was that she had the luxury to be minimalist. She didn't quite understand at first until I clarified. Think about it...A bunch of people in the world have nothing, because that's what they can afford to have. Then a bunch of people in the western world decide to throw/give/sell all of their shit away to simplify their lives. With the thinking, "If I need it, I can buy it again." - That's the definition of privilege, to be confident in your station in life that you can always just buy it again later.

Unfortunately, because minimalism (which I don't object to, overall) is creeping into the mainstream, people are now framing things in terms of "want and need". Following that with a judgement statement, "No, I want a Stg 44, but I do not need one." - Which on the surface isn't a bad thing at all, because it leads to greater fiscal responsibility. However, because this philosophy is running around unchecked by critical thinking this is resulting in, "Why do you need that?" - Which hasn't got a damn thing to do with anything.


I guess "because it's cool and looks like fun" is not a reasonable answer these days?

Nope, not at all.

Let's be fair - here on P-F we actively encourage minimization of hardware and maximization of software. To the point where the default response to, "What gun should I buy?"-type questions is answered with the following: buy 2x of one of the following - Glock 19, HK VP9, HK LEM - Holster? AIWB kydex with wedge.

Next? Ammo, dry-fire, training, range time, timer - Dry-fire, dry-fire, dry-fire, dry-fire. If you don't break a gun dry-firing you aren't doing it enough.

Everything else is a "gamer" gun or something to play with when you are bored. Which, by the by, is what an Stg 44 is too...something to play with, when you get bored.

-Rob

[Wheeler]

I was pointing out to a friend the other day, who was talking about "going minimalist in my life" - How nice it was that she had the luxury to be minimalist. She didn't quite understand at first until I clarified. Think about it...A bunch of people in the world have nothing, because that's what they can afford to have. Then a bunch of people in the western world decide to throw/give/sell all of their shit away to simplify their lives. With the thinking, "If I need it, I can buy it again." - That's the definition of privilege, to be confident in your station in life that you can always just buy it again later.

Unfortunately, because minimalism (which I don't object to, overall) is creeping into the mainstream, people are now framing things in terms of "want and need". Following that with a judgement statement, "No, I want a Stg 44, but I do not need one." - Which on the surface isn't a bad thing at all, because it leads to greater fiscal responsibility. However, because this philosophy is running around unchecked by critical thinking this is resulting in, "Why do you need that?" - Which hasn't got a damn thing to do with anything.



Nope, not at all.

Let's be fair - here on P-F we actively encourage minimization of hardware and maximization of software. To the point where the default response to, "What gun should I buy?"-type questions is answered with the following: buy 2x of one of the following - Glock 19, HK VP9, HK LEM - Holster? AIWB kydex with wedge.

Next? Ammo, dry-fire, training, range time, timer - Dry-fire, dry-fire, dry-fire, dry-fire. If you don't break a gun dry-firing you aren't doing it enough.

Everything else is a "gamer" gun or something to play with when you are bored. Which, by the by, is what an Stg 44 is too...something to play with, when you get bored.

-Rob

I suppose the Revolver/TDA/strong side holster crowd could take offense to that part about what serious gun and holster setup to have. :)

None of my guns are range toys. With a couple of exceptions of nostalgia every single gun I own was purchased with the first thought of "How will this fit into my perceived applications?" Defensive, hunting, and training. My match guns are guns that I choose to carry outside of the confines of the square range. Even my few 'pretty' guns have a use. My Brownings are hunting guns with the bonus of being aesthetically pleasing to me.

If I had the juice to buy an STG-44, I'd work it into my tool kit just like everything else, or I'd get rid of it.

[SecondsCount]

You guys are missing my point.


I guess "because it's cool and looks like fun" is not a reasonable answer these days?

It is a reasonable answer but wouldn't the $300.00 22LR version be a better fit...or maybe you need the louder bang for the cool factor.

Why not just build the gun to the original spec, including the magazines? Because they are trying to make this into a mainstream gun, to fit a serious role, to compete against the AK and AR and all the other modern carbines.

[Wheeler]

You guys are missing my point.



It is a reasonable answer but wouldn't the $300.00 22LR version be a better fit...or maybe you need the louder bang for the cool factor.

Why not just build the gun to the original spec, including the magazines? Because they are trying to make this into a mainstream gun, to fit a serious role, to compete against the AK and AR and all the other modern carbines.

That probably has to do with the not being able to see the forest for the trees syndrome we occasionally get infected with. :)

Presuming the gun runs reliably, is the design really so antiquidated that it can't 'compete' with the AK's and AR's?

[45dotACP]

That probably has to do with the not being able to see the forest for the trees syndrome we occasionally get infected with. :)

Presuming the gun runs reliably, is the design really so antiquidated that it can't 'compete' with the AK's and AR's?

If no M-Lock or KeyMod...nope

:D

[Tamara]

Presuming the gun runs reliably, is the design really so antiquidated that it can't 'compete' with the AK's and AR's?

Ever fired one?

(SPOILER ALERT: It's an un-ergonomic pig that weighs like a pregnant Garand and handles with the svelte grace of a railroad tie. But it's CHERMAN! And looks badass! Plus Wolfenstein 3D! And I'm not saying they were right or anything, but their tanks sure were cool.)

And as far as pig-heavy, obsolete rifles still being viable in the market, well... The M-14 may have been the biggest disaster of a service rifle we've had, but that doesn't stop Springfield from selling every single one they make to an army of lockstepping, bench-shooting zombies chanting "Poodleshooters poop where they eat. Poodleshooters poop where they eat."

[Talionis]

is the design really so antiquidated that it can't 'compete' with the AK's and AR's?

It is a predecessor. I love the gun for what it is, but there have been some improvements in the concept over the years.

[Trooper224]

This one fits under the heading of, "Wouldn't it be cool if............?" Trying to attach any kind of sense or logic to it is simply a losing proposition. The tactical bench warming Call of Duty crowd will love it. It's a Gun of Dreams: if they make it people will come. The first time I shot an original I was underwhelmed. I appreciated the historical significance of the design and it's place in history, but it's as relevant today as an M1 Garand.

[Talionis]

it's as relevant today as an M1 Garand.

Which is also a fantastic gun to own and shoot if one is into guns/history.

[Dagga Boy]

I ve been eyeing this at my LGS...transferable STG44 with the shoot around corner combo grenade launcher. I am sure they are fairly common....;-)

[Tamara]

I ve been eyeing this at my LGS...transferable STG44 with the shoot around corner combo grenade launcher. I am sure they are fairly common....;-)

Jesus! Three stocked Lugers and an M1941 Johnson...

5750

[Talionis]

the shoot around corner combo

While I admit that your LGS is more awesome than mine, is the 'corner bend' normally *down*? If so, that's pretty hardcore.

[RevolverRob]

Why not just build the gun to the original spec, including the magazines? Because they are trying to make this into a mainstream gun, to fit a serious role, to compete against the AK and AR and all the other modern carbines.

Wait is someone producing 7.92x33mm Kurz ammunition?

If I wanted to bring an Stg44 to the market for funsies, I'd sit around going, "Who has a bunch of disposable income, that they will drop $1500-2000 on a weird, obsolete German rifle?" Then I'd snap my fingers and go, "I know! The same guys who have $2000 Noveskes and LMTs! If I build it to use PMAGs and fire 5.56 people will be more tempted to buy it, because it won't cost two and a half kids to feed and clothe!"

Or something like that...kind of like if someone made a new Webley, making it in .455 Webley would result in tens sold. While making it in .45 ACP or .38 Special would result in hundreds sold.

-Rob

[Tamara]

Wait is someone producing 7.92x33mm Kurz ammunition?

Prvi Partizan loads it.

5751

[LOKNLOD]

I ve been eyeing this at my LGS...transferable STG44 with the shoot around corner combo grenade launcher. I am sure they are fairly common....;-)

What's the price tag on that baby?

I bet it's more than $1800...

[Dagga Boy]

Jesus! Three stocked Lugers and an M1941 Johnson...

5750

You should see the MG42's.....If you ever got in there, you would need a cot, as I have a feeling you would want a solid sleepover to really get everything in. Also.....that Johnson is the scoped sniper variant......the regular Johnson's are on another rack.


While I admit that your LGS is more awesome than mine, is the 'corner bend' normally *down*? If so, that's pretty hardcore.

It turns. It lays better in the rack with it not sideways. The thing ways a ton and is likely why not many were brought back by GI's.


What's the price tag on that baby?

I bet it's more than $1800...

It's a metric gun.....double that and add 40,000 for the proper conversion rate .

[45dotACP]

Wait is someone producing 7.92x33mm Kurz ammunition?

If I wanted to bring an Stg44 to the market for funsies, I'd sit around going, "Who has a bunch of disposable income, that they will drop $1500-2000 on a weird, obsolete German rifle?" Then I'd snap my fingers and go, "I know! The same guys who have $2000 Noveskes and LMTs! If I build it to use PMAGs and fire 5.56 people will be more tempted to buy it, because it won't cost two and a half kids to feed and clothe!"

Or something like that...kind of like if someone made a new Webley, making it in .455 Webley would result in tens sold. While making it in .45 ACP or .38 Special would result in hundreds sold.

-Rob
Hell if there was a modern, affordable Webley in 45 ACP or 38 special that had a decent trigger I'd run full tilt boogie to the gunshop for it.

[JAD]

You should see the MG42's.....If you ever got in there, you would need a cot, as I have a feeling you would want a solid sleepover to really get everything in. .

All of that awesomeness is packed into a fucking broom closet, by the way. You basically stand in one spot and turn in circles with your mouth agape, like a foghorn.

[Tamara]

Hell if there was a modern, affordable Webley in 45 ACP or 38 special that had a decent trigger I'd run full tilt boogie to the gunshop for it.

People love hipster guns, but rarely buy them in the volumes required to keep them production-viable long term. Otherwise the Italians would be selling Schofield copies left and right, instead of having them gather dust. Apparently there's not a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of "People who pine on gun fora for a new-production top-break gun" and "People who can and will actually pay >$1k for a firearm". ;)

[Dagga Boy]

All of that awesomeness is packed into a fucking broom closet, by the way. You basically stand in one spot and turn in circles with your mouth agape, like a foghorn.

Its a bit bigger than that......the Rare Book store that is inside of Jackson Armory is the closet size part. I have dropped some coin in there as well.....

[JAD]

Its a bit bigger than that......the Rare Book store that is inside of Jackson Armory is the closet size part. I have dropped some coin in there as well.....

I may have had some constriction of visual acuity due to nearly stroking out.

[Trooper224]

Which is also a fantastic gun to own and shoot if one is into guns/history.

I have one and I agree, but it wouldn't be the first thing I'd grab for anything other than fun games.

[Trooper224]

I ve been eyeing this at my LGS...transferable STG44 with the shoot around corner combo grenade launcher. I am sure they are fairly common....;-)

I'd be more interested in the Johnson.

[45dotACP]

People love hipster guns, but rarely buy them in the volumes required to keep them production-viable long term. Otherwise the Italians would be selling Schofield copies left and right, instead of having them gather dust. Apparently there's not a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of "People who pine on gun fora for a new-production top-break gun" and "People who can and will actually pay >$1k for a firearm". ;)
Soooo....

Too late for Smith to restart production of top break DA revolvers in .44 Russian again?

(Sits in corner and cries)

"But..."
(snorts and wipes off tears)
"Maybe a 38 or a 45 with modern sights? I mean Colt still makes 1873 SAAs"

:(

[JAD]

I'd be more interested in the Johnson.

Are we not doing phrasing anymore?

[Malamute]

Jesus! Three stocked Lugers and an M1941 Johnson...

5750

And wait, is that a Ferguson next to the stocked Lugers?




I have one and I agree, but it wouldn't be the first thing I'd grab for anything other than fun games.

Well, what if something large was trying to get into your basement rec room, through the wall? A few clips of black tip may be just about right.

[Drang]

And wait, is that a Ferguson next to the stocked Lugers?

Holy shit.

Good eye.

Sez here: Ferguson rifle - Gun Wiki - Wikia (http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Ferguson_rifle) that only two of the original Redcoat Fergusons exist, but "sporter versions from the period still exist."

I know there have been periodic (heh) efforts to market repros. CAS types might not buy a Schofield revolver, but Rev War re-enactors would sure buy a Ferguson.

[Tamara]

Too late for Smith to restart production of top break DA revolvers in .44 Russian again?

They already did, from 2000 to 2003. Product code was 170146.

[Tamara]

CAS types might not buy a Schofield revolver...

Does SASS even allow Schofields?

I do find it amusing that SASS will let someone use a modern Ruger Blackhawk, but not an actual period Colt Lightning or Mauser C/96. ;)

[Drang]

Does SASS even allow Schofields?

I do find it amusing that SASS will let someone use a modern Ruger Blackhawk, but not an actual period Colt Lightning or Mauser C/96. ;)

They have Wild Bunch matches with 1911s, why not Big Jake matches with earlier semi-autos?

[LHS]

While I admit that your LGS is more awesome than mine, is the 'corner bend' normally *down*? If so, that's pretty hardcore.

Yes, actually, because it's not designed to fire around corners. The intent was to let a Landser in a trench stick the Krummlauf (curved barrel) over the lip of the trench, aim with the periscope you see mounted on the Krummlauf, and fire at close range targets without exposing himself to enemy direct fire.

http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/imgs/galeria/1715.jpg

There was also a 90-degree version intended to be mounted in the roof of a tank, so the crew could spray off Russian infantry. The bullets tended to break up and come out of the barrel as fragments, but for that use, it didn't really matter (and might actually have been beneficial). When US troops found them in factories and testing grounds, they assumed they were for shooting around corners, and the myth was born.

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-ash/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/10598770_638561166259476_818997553_n.jpg

[Malamute]

Holy shit.

Good eye.

Sez here: Ferguson rifle - Gun Wiki - Wikia (http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Ferguson_rifle) that only two of the original Redcoat Fergusons exist, but "sporter versions from the period still exist."

I know there have been periodic (heh) efforts to market repros. CAS types might not buy a Schofield revolver, but Rev War re-enactors would sure buy a Ferguson.

The trigger guard tail and front boss and forward sling mount gave it away.

I've been geeking out over Ferguson copies, and high grade Hawken copies for the past couple hours. One of the nicest Hawken copies I've seen online was made by George Nelson. I saved a few pics several years ago but had no idea who he was or how to find him. In googling, Track of the Wolf has a couple good grade Hawken kits, one being a Kit Carson gun,....which had very nice lines, and the one they copied for the kit was made by George Nelson.

Cool handbuilt Ferguson copy, in American style stock.

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae252/sc4570/ferguson/1_zps02ca204d.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae252/sc4570/ferguson/2_zpsd918d04e.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae252/sc4570/ferguson/5_zps8029f227.jpg

The Hawken interests me in that I have a nearly complete 1868 50-70 trapdoor action I want to make a Gemmer style rifle out of. With a good long range barrel sight it would be a lot of fun to ring the 600 yard or farther steel with.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/615/1/kit-carson-hawken-rifle-parts-list

[Drang]

Oh man. I so don't need to start geeking out over Track Of The Wolf kits again...

ETA: Finally! They provide a tempered lock for the Brown Bess! If only they'd done so back when I was re-enacting...

[Tamara]

ETA: Finally! They provide a tempered lock for the Brown Bess! If only they'd done so back when I was re-enacting...

5752

[jh9]

If you're gonna derp up the local food joint,you may as well do it steampunk style.

http://img.pandawhale.com/84095-sensible-chuckle-magazine-laug-gCzo.gif

Maybe they can stop people outside Chipotle and ask for their papers before letting them in.

[Dagga Boy]

Yes, actually, because it's not designed to fire around corners. The intent was to let a Landser in a trench stick the Krummlauf (curved barrel) over the lip of the trench, aim with the periscope you see mounted on the Krummlauf, and fire at close range targets without exposing himself to enemy direct fire.

http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/imgs/galeria/1715.jpg

There was also a 90-degree version intended to be mounted in the roof of a tank, so the crew could spray off Russian infantry. The bullets tended to break up and come out of the barrel as fragments, but for that use, it didn't really matter (and might actually have been beneficial). When US troops found them in factories and testing grounds, they assumed they were for shooting around corners, and the myth was born.

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-ash/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/10598770_638561166259476_818997553_n.jpg

Outstanding! I love when we learn new things. Sometimes, our gun geekdom just smashes all the derpdom so prevalent today.

[Talionis]

Awesome, LHS. Thanks for the education. I still want to shoot around a corner with one someday, because reasons.

[LHS]

Awesome, LHS. Thanks for the education. I still want to shoot around a corner with one someday, because reasons.

If memory serves, all the Krummlaufen had short barrel life (lots of stress involved in curving a bullet like that), and the 90-degree ones were really short-lived. The 90-degree versions also had to be ported to relieve pressure and still wore out quickly, plus beat up the guns from the additional backpressure.

[Drang]

http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/imgs/galeria/1715.jpg
Too big to post: Krummer Lauf (http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/ventana.foto.php?COD=1714). This one's a corner shot...
To go further off the rails...
Is that Mark Clark? (Pretty sure he didn't lose any stars after the war, though...)
2 and a half years overseas during WWII and one year overseas in WWI.


I tried the source of that photo (JM Firearms Collection :: Colección particular de Jesús Madriñán (http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/)) but my Espanol no es bueno.

[Hambo]

Maybe they can stop people outside Chipotle and ask for their papers before letting them in.

You've got it backwards, bro. They should be asking Chipotle if they have their papers...from the health department.

[MK11]

A couple years ago a vet's widow turned in an authentic (although non functional) STG 44 at a local gun buyback. To the cops' credit, they told her she had something that could be worth a lot of money but she wanted nothing to do with it. The police eventually donated it to a museum.

[LHS]

Too big to post: Krummer Lauf (http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/ventana.foto.php?COD=1714). This one's a corner shot...
To go further off the rails...
Is that Mark Clark? (Pretty sure he didn't lose any stars after the war, though...)
2 and a half years overseas during WWII and one year overseas in WWI.


I tried the source of that photo (JM Firearms Collection :: Colección particular de Jesús Madriñán (http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/)) but my Espanol no es bueno.

That's one of the 90-degree tank Krummlaufs that the US troops thought was a corner-shooting device. That wasn't what the Germans developed it to do.

[TGS]

I'd rather have one of the FG42 repros.

[Tamara]

I'd rather have one of the FG42 repros.

I'd get stupid for one of those.

Plus, I have a metric crapton of 8x57 ammo.

[LSP972]

We played the curved barrel game too. One of the guys I worked with at the ATAP program was an original member of A Squadron. They used M3 "grease guns" for the first few years, and he told me that they had a couple of those attachments. Nobody ever used one, as far as he knew.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=20117

.

[LHS]

I'd get stupid for one of those.

Plus, I have a metric crapton of 8x57 ammo.

The repro FG42 is pretty much at the top of my 'Stupid expensive guns that I might actually be able to afford in my lifetime' list, along with a Merkel ejector double in .450/400NE

[LHS]

Oh, and Tam, apparently shooting milsurp or reloads voids the FG42's warranty with regards to ammo-related issues:

http://smgguns.com/?page_id=965

(scroll down a ways)

[Trajan]

Because it's a cool gun that people want to own because it is extremely historically important.

"Why in 2016 are people buying old S&W revolvers?"

"Why in 2016 are people buying 1911s?"

"Why in 2016 are people posting in a new mega thread under semi-auto pistols looking for something new but will go back to Glocks in two months anyway?" (Because they're all about the hardware and get bored with it?)

[Dagga Boy]

"I'd get stupid for one of those.

Plus, I have a metric crapton of 8x57 ammo."

For Tam......a transferable straight shooter. Has a ton if accessories with it....including a .308 conversion barrel in case you get short on 8mm, and some sort of optical thing.....:cool: In stock as of yesterday, Hurry!

[Tamara]

Oh, and Tam, apparently shooting milsurp or reloads voids the FG42's warranty with regards to ammo-related issues:

http://smgguns.com/?page_id=965

(scroll down a ways)

I wouldn't want to spend a jillion dollars fixing problems on what are essentially hand-built one-offs that were caused by corrosive Turkish squibs or reloads from Cletus 'n' Jasper's House o' Badly Smiley-Faced Brass.

[LHS]

I wouldn't want to spend a jillion dollars fixing problems on what are essentially hand-built one-offs that were caused by corrosive Turkish squibs or reloads from Cletus 'n' Jasper's House o' Badly Smiley-Faced Brass.

Yup. I don't blame them at all for it.

If you can drop 5 grand on a toy, you can afford to shoot factory ammo through it.

[Malamute]

Really like the MG 42. I was somewhat surprised to learn Germany gave the Kurds a number of MG3s as well as other small arms to shoot ISIS dudes with. I see the MG3s now and then in pics and videos of the fighting over there. Quite a few G-3s and the 5.56 space age looking rifles also. Oh, and Milans. :) Milans are very impressive when dealing with armor, or armored VIEDs

[Kyle Reese]

Yup. I don't blame them at all for it.

If you can drop 5 grand on a toy, you can afford to shoot factory ammo through it.

Factory new Prvi Partisan 8mm Mauser FMJ isn't that expensive.


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