HK "gamer" gun for USPSA

[jc000]

I'm planning on taking the plunge into some USPSA competition this year, and thought it might be fun to set up a game gun that wouldn't be super far off from my P2000 LEM carry gun.

As I'd like to stick with 9mm, my understanding is that I will have to shoot Production. To this end, I'm thinking a TDA USPc might be a fun comp-only pistol, and still be relatively close to my carry gun. The other option could be a VP9. I'm guessing neither of these guns are particularly competitive, but again, the idea is to pick up something as a fun gun that's not too radically different from what I'm carrying.

Not sure what I can get away with in production but it seems like there are few options to mod either of these models. Anyway any thoughts / ideas from more experienced hands would be welcome!

[45dotACP]

If you're just starting, I'd run what you've got in Limited with fully loaded mags until you've got a more accurate assessment of your needs. The gun you have is more than accurate enough and also the most similar to the gun you're carrying :)

Don't worry about being competitive yet. Worry first about being safe. The other stuff will become clear with practice.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[guymontag]

HK VP9 with Dawson sights and the match spring kit from HKParts. Although it would be your most competitive HK option I don't think it will translate all that well to the LEM (in my happily limited experience with that trigger system). Either way, HK's aren't too popular of a competition choice.

[ranger]

In my humble experience, it will be hard not to succumb to the Dark Side and buy-build a real gamer USPSA Production pistol and then your first "kind of gamer" pistol investment may not be realized. I would shoot what you have for a while and then make the investment. When I say a real gamer pistol look at what the top 10 or so shooters used at the big matches.

[taadski]

Dude, haven't you been paying attention? HKs are best used only by stone cold killers. They represent the very antithesis of gaming and shouldn't be mixed with "fun shooting" of any sort. In fact, the Germans are likely to send the Nachtkrapp after your soul for even suggesting such a travesty! I suggest you repent immediately to avoid any late night blanket party visits, or worse yet, disgruntled PMs from HK stalwarts the likes of Jodyh or Nyeti!

[JBP55]

A VP9 with ultra match spring set and Dawson sights should do well in production.

[HopetonBrown]

You are gonna hate shooting a USPc in USPSA. Just get a Tanfo. You're gonna buy one eventually, anyway.

[YVK]

DA/SA P30L with light springs or VP9 with whatever action kit is available.


I shoot a GGI P30L LEM in USPSA. It is fun. I am not competitive. It is fun. The gun is not competitive although I think it is capable of supporting high B, maybe low A level of performance. It is still fun. I wouldn't shoot anything compact in USPSA for about half dozen reasons. Enjoy the game.

[taadski]

DA/SA P30L with light springs or VP9 with whatever action kit is available.


I shoot a GGI P30L LEM in USPSA. It is fun. I am not competitive. It is fun. The gun is not competitive although I think it is capable of supporting high B, maybe low A level of performance. It is still fun. I wouldn't shoot anything compact in USPSA for about half dozen reasons. Enjoy the game.



You not gonna support your PF brother Hopetown and come clean about the new Stock II?








:p

[YVK]

I've shot 85 flawless rounds through it and it has anywhere from horrendous to forgettable trigger from the box, DA especially. It weighs enough to be used as dumbbells. I've seen them run like crap and I hope mine will be better. That's the extent of my opinion about it. GJM got his too, maybe he knows more.

In addition, it is replacing my Berettas, not the HKs. My HKs are irreplaceable because I am a stone cold beer. I mean, killer, not beer. But beer too.

[Talionis]

Others have already given you the winning formula for an HK in USPSA. VP9 with Dawson sights and a lot of practice. Trigger preference is up to you and how sensitive you are to it. My competition VP9 currently has an ultra-match spring kit from HKParts, a slight polish by me, and a super secret squirrel prototype striker assembly from an HK guru at HK Zentrale. Before all that, I did just fine with the trigger stock, but the lighter trigger does make it easier to pay less attention on 20yard mini-poppers and still get good hits.

I moved from a Mink tuned CZ75 SP01 to the VP9, it's not a handicap. I love that I really don't have to worry if my pistol will run or not, it just works. Oh, and hits exactly where I aim.

[Talionis]

My HKs are irreplaceable because I am a stone cold beer. I mean, killer, not beer. But beer too.

If you have pointers to stone cold beer in Utah, do tell for A1! I didn't make it on to the cool P-F squad, but I will visit at the least.

[taadski]

...GJM got his too, maybe he knows more.

In addition, it is replacing my Berettas, not the HKs. My HKs are irreplaceable because I am a stone cold beer. I mean, killer, not beer. But beer too.


LOL. I know. I've been keeping up on your antics! ;) Have you gotten it back yet?

[HCM]

DA/SA P30L with light springs or VP9 with whatever action kit is available.


I shoot a GGI P30L LEM in USPSA. It is fun. I am not competitive. It is fun. The gun is not competitive although I think it is capable of supporting high B, maybe low A level of performance. It is still fun. I wouldn't shoot anything compact in USPSA for about half dozen reasons. Enjoy the game.

If the VP -9 isn't your thing, I know a Border Patrol Agent who shoots a P30LS DA/SA in USPSA here in TX and does well enough to get himself some sponsorship.

[HCM]

Dude, haven't you been paying attention? HKs are best used only by stone cold killers. They represent the very antithesis of gaming and shouldn't be mixed with "fun shooting" of any sort. In fact, the Germans are likely to send the Nachtkrapp after your soul for even suggesting such a travesty! I suggest you repent immediately to avoid any late night blanket party visits, or worse yet, disgruntled PMs from HK stalwarts the likes of Jodyh or Nyeti!

If you smiled in your CHL photo, you are not HK material. :D

[eyemahm]

Others have already given you the winning formula for an HK in USPSA. VP9 with Dawson sights and a lot of practice. Trigger preference is up to you and how sensitive you are to it. My competition VP9 currently has an ultra-match spring kit from HKParts, a slight polish by me, and a super secret squirrel prototype striker assembly from an HK guru at HK Zentrale. Before all that, I did just fine with the trigger stock, but the lighter trigger does make it easier to pay less attention on 20yard mini-poppers and still get good hits.



+1 on the VP9 with Dawson sights. They make a nice set of competition tritiums, though I suspect the gamers go FO.

+0.5 on the ultra match spring set. There are two springs included in the kit, and the match sear spring is great, but the trigger return spring being too slow/sluggish to reset is a common enough complaint with the match version. I ended up going back to stock, but ymmv. While you're digging around inside the sear assembly, a couple minutes of polishing would not go amiss.

New striker assembly? Interesting. From my limited understanding of VP9 function, the striker is simply released (not tensioned by the trigger pull) so I'm curious to hear how this might affect trigger feel/ weight.

[YVK]

If you have pointers to stone cold beer in Utah, do tell for A1!

Just tell me if you want to start before the match, during the match, after the match, of instead of the match.
Seriously, we need to get together, all of us. I am thinking Sat lunch. Walkthrough is always better after beer anyway.

I would have said that I was impressed with VP9 holding its own against Mink Shadow but I'd be afraid that it would've messed with my friend GJM's mind. So I won't say that.


If the VP -9 isn't your thing, I know a Border Patrol Agent who shoots a P30LS DA/SA in USPSA here in TX and does well enough to get himself some sponsorship.

Before the VP9 times TDA P30L were what HK gamers mostly used. I personally shoot LEM because of a condition called an obstinate timmitus. I carry P30 LEM so I shoot P30L LEM in games. Interestingly, I could not find any performance difference between the two. It remains to be seen if Tanfo will change that.

[GJM]

My buddies seem to have the hardware options nailed down, so now it is time to focus on the outfit. I heard you can get a good deal on these.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpssdbjp5kj.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpssdbjp5kj.jpeg.html)

[JodyH]

For a "gamer H&K" that's still close to a V2 LEM, a V2 P30L .40 with a nickel plated flat spring, good sights and some +4 Taylor Freelance magazine baseplates.
That'll get you in the ballpark (I made A in Limited with that exact setup, shooting from concealed).
My laziness when it comes to stage planning and walk-thu's hurt me more in USPSA than the H&K or shooting from concealment did.
That and I refuse to wear lycra... that right there cost me several points per stage.

[David S.]

If you're just starting, I'd run what you've got in Limited with fully loaded mags until you've got a more accurate assessment of your needs. The gun you have is more than accurate enough and also the most similar to the gun you're carrying :)

Don't worry about being competitive yet. Worry first about being safe. The other stuff will become clear with practice.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Very much this.

"It's the Indian, Not the Arrow", right?

For the first year or two of competition, you will be your biggest handicap, not your gun. Concentrate on wringing every last bit of performance out of yourself. You'll be surprised with what you can accomplish with a P2000 LEM.

If you're just looking for an excuse to buy a new gun, then never mind.

[nwhpfan]

Their is nothing wrong with competing with as close to your carry as possible, and their is nothing wrong with competing with a P2000. You could shoot from your carry gear, or a duty rig, or an OWB range rig, it doesn't matter. Come one, come all. I shoot with guys shooting G19 in Limited all the time, from concealment pieing corners, using cover, going to slide lock. If you've never competed, the hardest part is just comming out. So come on out. I shot my first handful of matches in my carry gear and a M&P 45 and factory ammo.

After a match or two, then pull out the CC and start buying guns gear, Dillon machines, etc.

But if you really want to carry a P2000 and want your competition gun to be as close as possible, I think you're looking at a P30L of some kind that has gon to GGI.

[Dr. No]

This thread is funny.

I shot 80% at USPSA nationals with a USP fullsize in 40.

I made GM in USPSA with a VP9.

It's the Indian, not the arrow ....

As far as OP, If you want to keep with the same feeling I'd probably look at a P30L with LEM and just shoot the hell out of it. If you decide you want to get gamey and really push to compete at the top level then go to a DA/SA gun or a VP9.

[Peally]

I echo Dr. No's remarks. Until you get to the cream of the crop level, the gun (for realsies) doesn't matter. Find a full size quality brand gun, and shoot it. Seriously.

[Wobblie]

I echo Dr. No's remarks. Until you get to the cream of the crop level, the gun (for realsies) doesn't matter. Find a full size quality brand gun, and shoot it. Seriously.
Practice is more important than gun shopping. That said, you will need something with a decent trigger or frustration will soon set in.

[Peally]

Don't buy a HiPoint and you're G2G. I made A class with an HK45 and have zero reservations about making M class, and the V1 DA trigger on that thing is IMO a crap sandwich. I never thought the gun was the factor holding me back ;)

[jc000]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting this kind of response. Appreciate the feedback so far.


If you're just looking for an excuse to buy a new gun, then never mind.

Well yeah, there is some of that. This is just supposed to be a fun project. The competition is all for fun, obviously my shooting is the most important factor here. Not looking to solve any problems that my P2000 couldn't ably address, just hoping I could run something a little more competitive, and any commonality with controls (mag release / slide lock) or mags / support equipment would be great. I think the LEM trigger would require too much from me to make it work in competition, but maybe not. I've been working on my speed more lately…

VP9 sounds like the smarter (and less expensive option), was surprised more people didn't suggest the USPc (or USP) route. Anyway I like the thoughts so far, any other comments are welcome!


My buddies seem to have the hardware options nailed down, so now it is time to focus on the outfit. I heard you can get a good deal on these.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpssdbjp5kj.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpssdbjp5kj.jpeg.html)

Well I was really hoping one of you guys would step up and swing me one of these bad boys…*HK sure as hell ain't gonna be sending me any!

[JodyH]

If you cannot run a LEM trigger at A class speed... it's because you suck and H&K hates you.

[jc000]

There may be some truth to that assessment.

[Dr. No]

I'll let you guys in on another big USPSA secret ..... about 20% of the actual game comes down to shooting.

[GJM]

Gonna have to put my high rubber boots on.....

[taadski]

If you cannot run a LEM trigger at A class speed... it's because you suck and H&K hates you.



There are plenty of C class shooters that shoot at "A class speed".

[Gio]

I have to echo the sentiment that you can make GM with an H&K. If you are capable of .25 splits and transitions, a 1 sec draw, and 1.5 sec reloads at 10 yards while hitting the A zone the majority of the time, you can make GM with anything.

If you are talking about pushing the envelope though and driving down to the .13-.15 range on splits/transitions and under 1 second shot to shot on reloads while keeping shots in the A zone at 7-10 yards, you may start to find the trigger and gun to be limiting. If you were at this level though you'd be competitive for a top 10 finish nationally, so I'd wager you have a long way to go before your equipment holds you back.

[YVK]

If you cannot run a LEM trigger at A class speed... it's because you suck and H&K hates you.

I would love to see, with my own eyes, somebody to shoot a USPSA classifier at A class percentage with LEM. Or at least produce a record of that ever happening.

[Peally]

I would love to see, with my own eyes, somebody to shoot a USPSA classifier at A class percentage with LEM. Or at least produce a record of that ever happening.

Challenge accepted, someone post a video ;)

[JodyH]

I would love to see somebody to shoot a USPSA classifier at A class percentage with LEM. Or at least produce a record of that ever happening.
.21 "A zone" splits at 7-10 yards consistently and a decent draw/reload (1.5 sec for each) gets you easily into very high B low A classifier percentages, all of those are pretty easy to accomplish with a LEM.
As far as stages go, it's all about the stage planning and efficient movement not your splits.

[NCmtnman]

I would think that with equal time spent on a DA/SA platform and that of an LEM platform that you would have similar results with all "indians" being equal. What makes the DA/SA faster? The shorter trigger pull and reset in SA mode? The only part I could think of for myself would be easier trigger management in SA mode for low percentage shots because less thought and effort are placed on manipulating it correctly. At 10yds and in I do not see a difference in performance and even less so if running a USP LEM or some match hybrid LEM.

My IDPA experience is limited to G34 so excuse my ignorance if I'm off base.

[Talionis]

+1 on the VP9 with Dawson sights. They make a nice set of competition tritiums, though I suspect the gamers go FO.

+0.5 on the ultra match spring set. There are two springs included in the kit, and the match sear spring is great, but the trigger return spring being too slow/sluggish to reset is a common enough complaint with the match version. I ended up going back to stock, but ymmv. While you're digging around inside the sear assembly, a couple minutes of polishing would not go amiss.

New striker assembly? Interesting. From my limited understanding of VP9 function, the striker is simply released (not tensioned by the trigger pull) so I'm curious to hear how this might affect trigger feel/ weight.

I definitely prefer the FO Dawsons. I detest a thick front sight and notch, and tritium sights can't get narrow enough for my tastes due to the vial.

Re: the ultra match TRS. It's definitely not too slow, though it is not as positive as some prefer. I don't ride the reset, so how strong the reset is doesn't matter to me as long as it is ready to fire by the time I am. For reference, when I say not too slow, I'm referring to comfortable .11-.18 splits on easy targets depending on how tense I am.

The striker assembly drops trigger pull by 1-2lb.


There are plenty of C class shooters that shoot at "A class speed".

So, so true. A local guy just made B, and has started going nearly as fast as me on uncomplicated stages. I'm impressed until we start scoring. The good thing about that for him is that he has done good work on figuring out how to move quickly through a stage, now he needs to learn how to make good points while doing so.


I have to echo the sentiment that you can make GM with an H&K. If you are capable of .25 splits and transitions, a 1 sec draw, and 1.5 sec reloads at 10 yards while hitting the A zone the majority of the time, you can make GM with anything.

If you are talking about pushing the envelope though and driving down to the .13-.15 range on splits/transitions and under 1 second shot to shot on reloads while keeping shots in the A zone at 7-10 yards, you may start to find the trigger and gun to be limiting. If you were at this level though you'd be competitive for a top 10 finish nationally, so I'd wager you have a long way to go before your equipment holds you back.

I'd say that if someone is capable of the bolded numbers consistently in a major match setting without making mistakes, they have a shot at top 16 at production nationals. The majors I've won weren't decided by who had the most baller reloads/splits/transitions. I'd even venture to say the guys I beat probably have faster peak reloads/splits/transitions, they just didn't execute them quite as consistently as required.

I don't have much experience with DA/SA HK's, but regarding the VP9, I can tell you neither the gun nor the trigger is limiting at the faster times you mentioned.

[Talionis]

I would love to see, with my own eyes, somebody to shoot a USPSA classifier at A class percentage with LEM. Or at least produce a record of that ever happening.

Loan me your P30 while I'm in Utah and I'll see what I can do.

[YVK]

.21 "A zone" splits at 7-10 yards consistently and a decent draw/reload (1.5 sec for each) gets you easily into very high B low A classifier percentages, all of those are pretty easy to accomplish with a LEM.
As far as stages go, it's all about the stage planning and efficient movement not your splits.

It is all theoretical considerations, Jody. I personally achieved some of those and some I haven't. I am not looking for a recipe. What I want to know is if somebody has actually shot a USPSA classifier at A level performance with LEM gun during a course of a sanctioned USPSA match. Until I see that or an A card written in the name of a verified LEM shooter, all discussions of what's possible with that trigger and what isn't is just a theoretical noise to me. I know that I've been trying for two years, although it is about 3-4 matches annually and I don't reshoot.


Loan me your P30 while I'm in Utah and I'll see what I can do.

Definitely, I'll be happy to. Stock, or Grayguns, or both.

[JBP55]

I want to see the striker assembly that lowers the trigger pull by as much as 2#'s in a VP9/VP40. That along with the Ultra Match Kit and polishing should give you a sub 2# trigger pull.

[GJM]

Jody, parsing the various posts, I think the pending question is, did you actually make A class in USPSA, shooting a LEM trigger?

[nwhpfan]

I would love to see, with my own eyes, somebody to shoot a USPSA classifier at A class percentage with LEM. Or at least produce a record of that ever happening.

I wish these challenges came out a little closer to the weekend :)

[taadski]

For a "gamer H&K" that's still close to a V2 LEM, a V2 P30L .40 with a nickel plated flat spring, good sights and some +4 Taylor Freelance magazine baseplates.
That'll get you in the ballpark (I made A in Limited with that exact setup, shooting from concealed).
My laziness when it comes to stage planning and walk-thu's hurt me more in USPSA than the H&K or shooting from concealment did.
That and I refuse to wear lycra... that right there cost me several points per stage.



A74752. Yeah, help a brother out. I'm confused...

[Dr. No]

I would think that with equal time spent on a DA/SA platform and that of an LEM platform that you would have similar results with all "indians" being equal. What makes the DA/SA faster? The shorter trigger pull and reset in SA mode? The only part I could think of for myself would be easier trigger management in SA mode for low percentage shots because less thought and effort are placed on manipulating it correctly. At 10yds and in I do not see a difference in performance and even less so if running a USP LEM or some match hybrid LEM.

My IDPA experience is limited to G34 so excuse my ignorance if I'm off base.

The length of time it takes to reset and pull the trigger. The more length of travel you have before the gun goes off, the more likely it is the sights will move off target as you pull the trigger. That's why race guys like 1911 triggers that move 1/8" at 3#. You touch it and it goes off, so the sights never have a chance to move. For people who don't come all the way off the trigger, the less finger travel you have the quicker your time will be.

Same with the DA shot & LEM. I learned to just pull through everything and get to the wall or stage the trigger as close as I could to the break and it allowed me to get the speed I wanted.

[YVK]

I wish these challenges came out a little closer to the weekend :)

Not really a challenge, just curious. I've stuck with LEM for over two years for USPSA and it's been my predominant system since late '11. I don't shoot much USPSA and I am simply not good but still, I am just a C after what I've put in, dry fire and such. I don't know anyone who has done much better, yet this thread is full of assertions how LEM can support just about any level of achievement. I would like to see a factual confirmation, if anything, for my piece of mind. What I don't care to see is people who don't shoot LEM or haven't done much better than I with it tell me how capable it is, although it is possible that I suck more than I think I do :)

[olstyn]

There are plenty of C class shooters that shoot at "A class speed".

As a C class Production shooter, don't I know it. I can hang with the As and Bs on speed or accuracy, but not both; in order to be as accurate, I have to slow down, and if I go at their speed or close to it, I end up with way more charlies, deltas, and mikes than I'd like.


For the first year or two of competition, you will be your biggest handicap, not your gun. Concentrate on wringing every last bit of performance out of yourself. You'll be surprised with what you can accomplish with a P2000 LEM.

All kinds of this. While I'm really jonesing for a full size P99, and I feel like it would give me some advantages over my P99c, I know that I have not hit a performance ceiling because of the gun. It might be easier to make B if I moved up to a bigger gun, but I'm sure it's doable with my current hardware, and in regard to the OP, I'd argue that the P2K's trigger is probably less of a handicap than my P99c's G26-sized grip. Might as well get out and shoot for a season, get a feel for it, and then evaluate whether different hardware is necessary. Of course, as you say, if the OP is just looking for a reason to buy a new gun, then as others have said, P30L or VP9 (or possibly Walther PPQ M1) would maintain similar manual of arms.

[joshs]

Not really a challenge, just curious. I've stuck with LEM for over two years for USPSA and it's been my predominant system since late '11. I don't shoot much USPSA and I am simply not good but still, I am just a C after what I've put in, dry fire and such. I don't know anyone who has done much better, yet this thread is full of assertions how LEM can support just about any level of achievement. I would like to see a factual confirmation, if anything, for my piece of mind. What I don't care to see is people who don't shoot LEM or haven't done much better than I with it tell me how capable it is, although it is possible that I suck more than I think I do :)

It's definitely less forgiving of errors than a light single action trigger system, but I don't think it is an impediment to being competitive. I regularly won Production at local USPSA matches against other A and M shooters using a P30 LEM I also won a FAST coin with the same gun.

[YVK]

Your achievements with it and Vinh getting an advanced at Rogers are two facts that kept my belief. That, and my obstinate timmitus.
Then again, neither of you are shooting it anymore :) :)

[JHC]

Is there an argument being made that lighter triggers are not easier to shoot? It gets muddled when it's said "I ranked this with X or so and so ranked that with Y."

[nwhpfan]

Not really a challenge, just curious. I've stuck with LEM for over two years for USPSA and it's been my predominant system since late '11. I don't shoot much USPSA and I am simply not good but still, I am just a C after what I've put in, dry fire and such. I don't know anyone who has done much better, yet this thread is full of assertions how LEM can support just about any level of achievement. I would like to see a factual confirmation, if anything, for my piece of mind. What I don't care to see is people who don't shoot LEM or haven't done much better than I with it tell me how capable it is, although it is possible that I suck more than I think I do :)

I shot an LEM for years as a carry gun and it's what I was carrying when I started competing... FWIW I did shoot a P2000 in a 3 Gun match and I won my Division and was 5th or 6th overall; and I shot another 3 gun match with a P30L lem and I won two stages. One was pistol only, the other was a goofy "team" pistol shotgun stage. I don't think the LEM is ideal for competition but I also don't know, if given the time to get acclimated, I would be "that" much worse off personally.

[Dr. No]

Is there an argument being made that lighter triggers are not easier to shoot? It gets muddled when it's said "I ranked this with X or so and so ranked that with Y."

For me, I am actually faster with the 5# stock trigger than the 'lightened' kits because it has a faster reset. I don't have to wait on the trigger. I've never understood the obsession with trigger weight in the VP's. The way the trigger feels is perfect stock.

I would say "less travel" triggers are easier to shoot, not "lighter" ones. Guys can drill holes with a 5# 1911 trigger but struggle with a 5# DA trigger because of travel length.

[guymontag]

Practice is more important than gun shopping. That said, you will need something with a decent trigger or frustration will soon set in.

Agree with the above... and if you're serious about competition, I'd add a decent magwell and decent sights to the decent trigger and you'll be ready for A class easily.

[Talionis]

Agree with the above... and if you're serious about competition, I'd add a decent magwell and decent sights to the decent trigger and you'll be ready for A class easily.

Ehhhh. While you can run an HK in Limited just fine, where they really shine is in Production, especially if you're shooting 9mm. I'd really skip the magwell. Yes, Gabe has done extremely well shooting Limited Minor from concealment. Yes, he is the exception to the rule.

[guymontag]

Ehhhh. While you can run an HK in Limited just fine, where they really shine is in Production, especially if you're shooting 9mm. I'd really skip the magwell. Yes, Gabe has done extremely well shooting Limited Minor from concealment. Yes, he is the exception to the rule.

Sorry for the confusion, I mean the magwell as more of a feature and not as an add-on. Standard Sig 320 magwell? Meh. New frame Sig 320 magwell? Sounds better.

[Talionis]

Is there an argument being made that lighter triggers are not easier to shoot? It gets muddled when it's said "I ranked this with X or so and so ranked that with Y."


For me, sights matter waaaaaaaaaay more than trigger weight. However, for the challenging shots I encounter frequently at majors as well as my local matches (think 20-25 yard mini-poppers and very tight no-shoots) a lighter trigger is a benefit.

Think of it this way: if my grip is less than perfect I can make the shot easier with a light trigger than a heavy one because the trigger pull exerts less force on the gun. Of course I can make those difficult shots with a heavier trigger, but I have to concentrate more, and have less margin for error.

[Talionis]

Sorry for the confusion, I mean the magwell as more of a feature and not as an add-on. Standard Sig 320 magwell? Meh. New frame Sig 320 magwell? Sounds better.

I'm tracking now. I don't disagree, a bigger magwell is better. Maybe one day I can convince HK to produce a stock magwell on a VP9. Really, HK is only dipping its toes back into supporting a competition team as compared to Sig's more aggressive approach.

[YVK]

If I gave you a P30 to shoot, and I promised that I would, can you also convince them to make a stock magwell for P30? That thing has probably the tightest well to mag dimensions out of all full sized polymer guns that i know of.

[Dr. No]

If I gave you a P30 to shoot, and I promised that I would, can you also convince them to make a stock magwell for P30? That thing has probably the tightest well to mag dimensions out of all full sized polymer guns that i know of.

Taylor freelance.

[Cincinnatus]

Taylor freelance.

Do they still produce these?
Every time I visit their site, the bronze/final production magwells are OOS, and even the 3D printer prototypes are OOS.
I hear HKparts is going to make a jet-funnel/magwell for the P30 and Vp9, but who knows how long that will be. I am dismayed to see the magwell on the VP9 and P30 both look like a teething pitbull had after it with only a few sessions of reloading practice.

[taadski]

For me, sights matter waaaaaaaaaay more than trigger weight. However, for the challenging shots I encounter frequently at majors as well as my local matches (think 20-25 yard mini-poppers and very tight no-shoots) a lighter trigger is a benefit.

Think of it this way: if my grip is less than perfect I can make the shot easier with a light trigger than a heavy one because the trigger pull exerts less force on the gun. Of course I can make those difficult shots with a heavier trigger, but I have to concentrate more, and have less margin for error.



That's really well said.

[Talionis]

That's really well said.

I like you.

[JHC]

For me, I am actually faster with the 5# stock trigger than the 'lightened' kits because it has a faster reset. I don't have to wait on the trigger. I've never understood the obsession with trigger weight in the VP's. The way the trigger feels is perfect stock.

I would say "less travel" triggers are easier to shoot, not "lighter" ones. Guys can drill holes with a 5# 1911 trigger but struggle with a 5# DA trigger because of travel length.

+1 to all of that. You have your precision down pat and you are seeking delivering it faster and faster (in ref to your pref for the 5# faster set up). I don't think the TigerSwan trainers wrong though when they said trigger pull# to gun weight ratio is a big big factor in how accurately folks can shoot (you ain't "folks" ;) ). As mentioned in this thread, also lots of folks running heavy steel 1911s and 2011s with very light triggers too.

The degree of trigger movement with resistance is very interesting. I would also generally agree even though 15+ years of habituation of the longer Glock pull has really damaged my SA trigger execution which I had down pat in my SA pistol years. Mostly I think it's all what you get 10K reps with.

[NCmtnman]

The length of time it takes to reset and pull the trigger. The more length of travel you have before the gun goes off, the more likely it is the sights will move off target as you pull the trigger. That's why race guys like 1911 triggers that move 1/8" at 3#. You touch it and it goes off, so the sights never have a chance to move. For people who don't come all the way off the trigger, the less finger travel you have the quicker your time will be.

Same with the DA shot & LEM. I learned to just pull through everything and get to the wall or stage the trigger as close as I could to the break and it allowed me to get the speed I wanted.

Whenever I would try to stage the LEM then I would develop the NOW syndrome and smash the trigger if I paused for too long. I had to learn to treat it as a rolling break which I'm sure is what a more accomplished shooter does at speed.

[Mr_White]

I'll let you guys in on another big USPSA secret ..... about 20% of the actual game comes down to shooting.

What's the 80% then?

[JHC]

What's the 80% then?

Ha! I'm an asshole with an opinion and it's 30% stage plan and 50% the speed efficiency of the total movement - moving fast as shit and the efficient movement into/out of shooting (reloads should just be absorbed into that efficient moving).

Let's see how I do. ;)

[Wobblie]

"Moving fast as shit" sure leaves me out of the equation. Maybe I'll take up trap.

[Dr. No]

Do they still produce these?
Every time I visit their site, the bronze/final production magwells are OOS, and even the 3D printer prototypes are OOS.
I hear HKparts is going to make a jet-funnel/magwell for the P30 and Vp9, but who knows how long that will be. I am dismayed to see the magwell on the VP9 and P30 both look like a teething pitbull had after it with only a few sessions of reloading practice.

Yes - he's a small shop and makes batches. You might email him as well and see when he's got stuff coming.

I think I have one of the prototype P30 magwells if you need one.. PM me

[Dr. No]

Whenever I would try to stage the LEM then I would develop the NOW syndrome and smash the trigger if I paused for too long. I had to learn to treat it as a rolling break which I'm sure is what a more accomplished shooter does at speed.

Yes, and that is also a visual patience issue. People tend to smoothly get to the wall and then smash the trigger .... where they should be smashing the trigger TO the wall and then pulling smoothly through .... and then getting off the trigger to reset it and smashing back to the wall again .......

[Dr. No]

Ha! I'm an asshole with an opinion and it's 30% stage plan and 50% the speed efficiency of the total movement - moving fast as shit and the efficient movement into/out of shooting (reloads should just be absorbed into that efficient moving).

Let's see how I do. ;)

I'd say 20% plan and 60% movement and efficiency. Basically everything that you're doing when you're *not* shooting...

[cheby]

Ha! I'm an asshole with an opinion and it's 30% stage plan and 50% the speed efficiency of the total movement - moving fast as shit and the efficient movement into/out of shooting (reloads should just be absorbed into that efficient moving).

Let's see how I do. ;)

Okay, here is something you could do to prove this. Please pick any USPSA classifier from here: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-classifier-list.php
By shooting them you will eliminate any stage plan or movement. Go ahead and shoot a few of them. Here you can calculate the percentage: http://www.classifiercalc.com/. Please report back your percentage.
Do not make a mistake - people who are good in USPSA are GOOD shooters first.

[Dagga Boy]

Yes, and that is also a visual patience issue. People tend to smoothly get to the wall and then smash the trigger .... where they should be smashing the trigger TO the wall and then pulling smoothly through .... and then getting off the trigger to reset it and smashing back to the wall again .......

I ll be stealing that.......you have obviously watched me shoot...;).

Totally outside of USPSA....as it isn't my thing (but should be).
I love the LEM. For a use of force management trigger....I love the LEM. To prevent a ton of the issues we are seeing with many agencies with short take up striker pistols with negligent discharges, and DA/SA guns with post firing holstering ND's......I love the LEM. I find them perfectly capable of doing well shooting any good police type qualification course, or in a force on force type environment. With all that said.....they are simply harder to shoot with precision at speed...especially as distance increases. Keep in mind, we are talking "match or drill" speed, not street speed that is dictated by your assessment speed that is well within the capabilities of the LEM.

I simply can shoot many drills better with a VP9 than with a LEM. After spending a little time with GJM's Gamer CZ where you have weight and a great trigger and sights...it is hard to miss, and very forgiving of errors. A good example for me is the new "Super Test" Wayne and I are using. I shot a mid 280's on it with my absolutely beloved GGI P2000 that is a favorite carry gun. Just shot it yesterday with a VP9 after a stellar range day teaching with a gun I haven't shot in months....297. A bit of luck...yes. I've been shooting tougher triggers for months....yes, but the reality is I simply am able to shoot drills better with a VP9 than my LEM guns CONSISTENTLY. Shooting drills is not necessarily indicative of winning a street encounter.....as most are won or lost without a shot fired and have little to do with what trigger system is used. Shooting drills and matches IS what we often like to do and how we practice, so we tend to like and gravitate to those things that help us perform better. Just like everything, there is give and take. To me the LEM benefits outweigh any deficiencies when used for exactly what it was designed for.....dealing with people in an LE type encounter....which is usually a prisoner taking operation. It is not the best trigger for "winning" a competitive event. Dr. No is really our current resident expert at daily doing prisoner taking operations, and shooting competitively at a very high level on weekends. A quarter century ago....that was me. I carried very good guns for prisoner taking. My open class guns for my game were very heavy, with very light triggers with minimal movement required to get them to discharge. Much has changed.....but the combo of weight and minimal movement has not.

For a new person starting out....shooting your carry gun will not be much of a hindrance, and probably a good thing while learning how the game is played. Eventually, if the game gets very important to you....then adapt your gear. Heck, if I was going to start gun games again, I would likely use my daily carry stuff as it would be great practice, and they have categories and classifications for a reason.

[JHC]

Okay, here is something you could do to prove this. Please pick any USPSA classifier from here: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-classifier-list.php
By shooting them you will eliminate any stage plan or movement. Go ahead and shoot a few of them. Here you can calculate the percentage: http://www.classifiercalc.com/. Please report back your percentage.
Do not make a mistake - people who are good in USPSA are GOOD shooters first.

No. I didn't say shooting is 20%. Dr. No did. I guessed at what might make up the other 80% starting from Dr. No's premise.

Nowhere have I ever suggested they can't shoot. I do agree with Dr. No that for match performance (vs classifications) there is a lot of movement.

[joshs]

I'd say 20% plan and 60% movement and efficiency. Basically everything that you're doing when you're *not* shooting...

If that's the case, then why aren't there guys who can smash the HHF on classifiers like the top GMs can, but who can't place well in major matches? Looking at competitors' classification records on USPSA can be pretty illuminating on this question. Very few people seem to be able to consistently deliver 100% on classifiers, those who do tend to win a lot of matches.

[JHC]

"Moving fast as shit" sure leaves me out of the equation. Maybe I'll take up trap.

It's unbelievable how fast they get through a stage. The last two I shot I was pretty happy with marksmanship ie alphas vs other. But when I'm watching myself through my eyes I felt like I was FLYING through the stage. Then when my time is called it's like 5 SECONDS behind the B class guy I had followed. I'm like WTF? Then I watched the videos my pal shot of it. LOL Tactical turtle isn't just about the head and shoulders.

[Mr_White]

I'd say 20% plan and 60% movement and efficiency. Basically everything that you're doing when you're *not* shooting...

Maybe we are just assigning different language to the same concepts? If you had said that USPSA was 20% about stage planning, and 80% about shooting and gunhandling integrated with a wide continuum of movement, I'd agree. I personally think shooting and gunhandling integrated with everything from standing still, all the way up to running, is primarily about the shooting and gunhandling, but all of it, even the movement aspects, are highly relevant to defensive use of the handgun. Movement integrated with shooting is still fundamentally about shooting (just like I would say shooting from prone isn't primarily about being prone, it's primarily about shooting - and also about integrating a certain body position with the shooting.)

Movement in USPSA is crammed right in there with the shooting and gunhandling. It isn't like you go run 100 yards, then stand still and shoot, so someone who doesn't sprint quickly can't score well even if he shoots great. It's more like, take a step and draw, then stand still and shoot, turn another direction and shoot there, now move two yards to the side and shoot some more, now move four more yards downrange and on the way reload and then shoot this other target while slowing your movement to a stop, then get into a hard lean and shoot some targets from there, now run six yards to this last position and shoot the last targets.

What I think I've seen is that doing well in USPSA is primarily about shooting and gunhandling well, on-demand, across a wide range of target difficulties and intensities of movement. And shooting well, integrated with all that movement and variable physical circumstance, is a higher level of skill than just shooting well by itself.

[olstyn]

when I'm watching myself through my eyes I felt like I was FLYING through the stage. Then when my time is called it's like 5 SECONDS behind the B class guy I had followed.

I know the feeling. I spend a lot of time before field courses telling myself to remember to RUN. Sometimes I even succeed at remembering. :)

[Mr_White]

It's unbelievable how fast they get through a stage. The last two I shot I was pretty happy with marksmanship ie alphas vs other. But when I'm watching myself through my eyes I felt like I was FLYING through the stage. Then when my time is called it's like 5 SECONDS behind the B class guy I had followed. I'm like WTF?

That 1st person vs. 3rd person time warp is very real for me too.


LOL Tactical turtle isn't just about the head and shoulders.

LOL indeed!


Very few people seem to be able to consistently deliver 100% on classifiers, those who do tend to win a lot of matches.

Totally agree. I find the classification system both fascinating and frustrating. What I've seen (as far as I have looked anyway) is that the ONLY people who consistently shoot GM scores on classifiers are national champions and contenders.

[cheby]

It's unbelievable how fast they get through a stage. The last two I shot I was pretty happy with marksmanship ie alphas vs other. But when I'm watching myself through my eyes I felt like I was FLYING through the stage. Then when my time is called it's like 5 SECONDS behind the B class guy I had followed. I'm like WTF? Then I watched the videos my pal shot of it. LOL Tactical turtle isn't just about the head and shoulders.

Looks like there is some misunderstanding regarding what marksmanship is. It is not about hitting alphas. That is actually very easy. Marksmanship is about hitting those alphas FAST. It takes various skills including target acquisition, target transition, fast trigger manipulation, and so on. That is where you lose time the most BTW. So if your time is 5 seconds behind that B-class guy, that should tell you something.

[Clusterfrack]

Speed will come! It's better IMO to be an accurate turtle than a hoser who can't hit shit.

Time is bizarre for me while shooting. I often feel like a USPSA stage takes forever, and I'm moving through molasses. But then I check the timer, and I'm not slow at all. I think trying to go fast creates an illusion of speed but shooting in the moment creates an illusion of slowness.

[taadski]

Looks like there is some misunderstanding regarding what marksmanship is. It is not about hitting alphas. That is actually very easy. Marksmanship is about hitting those alphas FAST. It takes various skills including target acquisition, target transition, fast trigger manipulation, and so on. That is where you lose time the most BTW. So if your time is 5 seconds behind that B-class guy, that should tell you something.

I've never thought of the term "marksmanship" as having any element of speed associated. (Shrug)

[cheby]

Speed will come! It's better IMO to be an accurate turtle than a hoser who can't hit shit.

Time is bizarre for me while shooting. I often feel like a USPSA stage takes forever, and I'm moving through molasses. But then I check the timer, and I'm not slow at all. I think trying to go fast creates an illusion of speed but shooting in the moment creates an illusion of slowness.

This. Accuracy should come first.

[Talionis]

Speed will come!

Not picking on you, and I think most of your post is spot on, but speed is a learned skill just like accuracy. Speed absolutely will not come unless you make a concentrated effort to be fast. From what I have seen, the guys that get good the fastest start out by being fast, then learning to actually get good hits at that speed. People are naturally biased one way or the other, and either way is a totally valid path to the end goal of being both super fast and super accurate.

[GJM]

Accuracy vs Speed. To be a successful gamer, you need both. It is unclear to me which approach, speed or accuracy, gets you there faster.

For timmie pursuits, accuracy most often trumps speed.

Along the path to fast and accurate, to balance gaming and timmie, I would rather be accurate and learning to be fast, over vice versa.

[JHC]

Looks like there is some misunderstanding regarding what marksmanship is. It is not about hitting alphas. That is actually very easy. Marksmanship is about hitting those alphas FAST. It takes various skills including target acquisition, target transition, fast trigger manipulation, and so on. That is where you lose time the most BTW. So if your time is 5 seconds behind that B-class guy, that should tell you something.

It was definitely foot speed. :D

[Cincinnatus]

Accuracy vs Speed. To be a successful gamer, you need both. It is unclear to me which approach, speed or accuracy, gets you there faster.

For timmie pursuits, accuracy most often trumps speed.

Along the path to fast and accurate, to balance gaming and timmie, I would rather be accurate and learning to be fast, over vice versa.

Remember the first episode of Gunsmoke, where the gunfighter was super-fast but only accurate to about 10 yards? He had to entice hsi opponents to come close before he would draw down.
What you are saying reminds me of what the alternative would look like.

[Dagga Boy]

Accuracy vs Speed. To be a successful gamer, you need both. It is unclear to me which approach, speed or accuracy, gets you there faster.

For timmie pursuits, accuracy most often trumps speed.

Along the path to fast and accurate, to balance gaming and timmie, I would rather be accurate and learning to be fast, over vice versa.

We are in total agreement. Folks need to understand that things like USPSA are a sport (and that is not in anyway a dig....polar opposite actually). The winning GM folks are the high level athletes of this world. They are often gifted with particular things that help. Reflexes, visual speed, accelerated reaction rates, etc and then capitalized with practice.

I have found in my world, there are also certain gifts that our top folks have. Most of this is speed of threat processing and calmness and discipline under stress. Much I this comes down to how you balance the "shooting" with your own strengths and weaknesses. Those who can capitalize on this tend to be winners. What we need to recognize is that te formula may be a bit individualized with no clear means that works for everyone.

[Dr. No]

If that's the case, then why aren't there guys who can smash the HHF on classifiers like the top GMs can, but who can't place well in major matches? Looking at competitors' classification records on USPSA can be pretty illuminating on this question. Very few people seem to be able to consistently deliver 100% on classifiers, those who do tend to win a lot of matches.

There are tons of GM's who will never break 90% at nationals.

I think you're looking at a small pond big fish perspective. Yeah a GM might win a sectional or area match, but who showed up? Stoeger and Grauffel make some of the top shooters look like B class.

If you can shoot HHF on classifiers you are a good shooter. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll do good against the top 10%.

[Dr. No]

Maybe we are just assigning different language to the same concepts? If you had said that USPSA was 20% about stage planning, and 80% about shooting and gunhandling integrated with a wide continuum of movement, I'd agree. I personally think shooting and gunhandling integrated with everything from standing still, all the way up to running, is primarily about the shooting and gunhandling, but all of it, even the movement aspects, are highly relevant to defensive use of the handgun. Movement integrated with shooting is still fundamentally about shooting (just like I would say shooting from prone isn't primarily about being prone, it's primarily about shooting - and also about integrating a certain body position with the shooting.)

Movement in USPSA is crammed right in there with the shooting and gunhandling. It isn't like you go run 100 yards, then stand still and shoot, so someone who doesn't sprint quickly can't score well even if he shoots great. It's more like, take a step and draw, then stand still and shoot, turn another direction and shoot there, now move two yards to the side and shoot some more, now move four more yards downrange and on the way reload and then shoot this other target while slowing your movement to a stop, then get into a hard lean and shoot some targets from there, now run six yards to this last position and shoot the last targets.

What I think I've seen is that doing well in USPSA is primarily about shooting and gunhandling well, on-demand, across a wide range of target difficulties and intensities of movement. And shooting well, integrated with all that movement and variable physical circumstance, is a higher level of skill than just shooting well by itself.

What classification are you? Just so I have a frame of reference.

[Dr. No]

I've never thought of the term "marksmanship" as having any element of speed associated. (Shrug)

Speed becomes super important when the other guy is pointing a gun at you ........ I'd say being able to shoot accurately under stress faster than the other guy is a fairly encompassing idea of what marksmanship really means.

Stacking rounds on top of each other is great and means you have a lot of talent. But if it takes you 10 minutes to put 10 rounds in one hole, it's not terribly "practical" ... hence the USPSA "Practical" moniker.

[Mr_White]

What classification are you? Just so I have a frame of reference.

M in Limited.

[YVK]

Duplicate

[Clusterfrack]

M in Limited.

...shooting 9mm minor, with a stock Glock, concealed AIWB...

[Talionis]

There are tons of GM's who will never break 90% at nationals.

I think you're looking at a small pond big fish perspective. Yeah a GM might win a sectional or area match, but who showed up? Stoeger and Grauffel make some of the top shooters look like B class.

If you can shoot HHF on classifiers you are a good shooter. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll do good against the top 10%.

Well yeah, considering 90% at this year's production nationals was a top 16 finish, and more than half of the M/GM shooters finished lower than 80% of Ben. What josh didn't really mention is that Ben and the other national contenders aren't really just shooting hundos consistently, if you were to actually have access to their hit factor, it would be more like 110% + HHF. I am perfectly capable of shooting hundos here and there, but I'm certainly not consistent enough, nor am I quite a contender for an area match win (especially now that JJ has been showing up in prod). My own experience says that shooting skill is vastly more than 20% of success in USPSA. Our different valuation may just be that we conceptualize what falls under "shooting skill" differently, but guys like Ben and Vogel just plain shoot a bunch better than most of us.

For reference: Production M; 80% at nationals; TY83544.

[Dr. No]

M in Limited.

Okay then you're experienced and shooting at a high level. You remember when you were A class but you could rip off a 95% classifier? How were you placing at matches then? Your placement wasn't because you weren't a good shooter - it's because all the other facets of the game you weren't as good at as the shooting.

Entries, exits, shooting on the move vs static, efficiency in footwork and balance, setups, planning nuances, cadence, target transitions, etc - all of these are things that deal with time when we're not shooting.

That is the other 80%. Bianchi shooters can be accurate as hell and be quick at it .... but they don't know a thing about moving.

Think about what you have to get better at right now as a M. Is it splits? Is shaving .2 off yoru bill drill going to make you win area matches? Is being able to shoot a 2" group instad of 3" at 50y going to get you in 90% at nationals?

Or would it be better to work your entries and exits and cut 1-2 seconds off every one of your stages? That will get you into 90% ...... Imagine if you took 12-24 SECONDS off your total time at an area match. It's not through shooting better...just moving better.

[joshs]

There are tons of GM's who will never break 90% at nationals.

I think you're looking at a small pond big fish perspective. Yeah a GM might win a sectional or area match, but who showed up? Stoeger and Grauffel make some of the top shooters look like B class.

If you can shoot HHF on classifiers you are a good shooter. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll do good against the top 10%.

The top 16 at Nationals all shot within 10% of Ben, but that isn't really my point. My point is that the only guys who are shooting, and sometimes seriously exceeding, the HHF on classifiers for record are the guys who win or are in contention to win Nationals or Area matches. My theory based on that evidence is that there should be some shooters who don't fit this mold if USPSA matches aren't primarily about "shooting," which I assume we can agree that classifiers are.

[Dr. No]

Well yeah, considering 90% at this year's production nationals was a top 16 finish, and more than half of the M/GM shooters finished lower than 80% of Ben. What josh didn't really mention is that Ben and the other national contenders aren't really just shooting hundos consistently, if you were to actually have access to their hit factor, it would be more like 110% + HHF. I am perfectly capable of shooting hundos here and there, but I'm certainly not consistent enough, nor am I quite a contender for an area match win (especially now that JJ has been showing up in prod). My own experience says that shooting skill is vastly more than 20% of success in USPSA. Our different valuation may just be that we conceptualize what falls under "shooting skill" differently, but guys like Ben and Vogel just plain shoot a bunch better than most of us.

For reference: Production M; 80% at nationals; TY83544.

I guess I don't quite get what you're trying to say other than "Ben is a better shooter, of course he wins". Ben and Eric slaughter the competition because they are ruthlessly consistent and don't faulter under pressure. They also are on the absolute razor's edge of movement skills.

Ask yourself this.

If you could consistently shoot 100% classifiers, with your same level of movement now, how much do you think your winning percentage would improve?

My whole point in the 80/20 thing is the 20% takes a lot of work to get to. Don't get me wrong, I've busted my ass for years to shoot to the level I do. I realized once I got here that I still had a long way to go... I beat Rob Leatham on a shooting competition - 1 shot, from the draw - head at 7y. Does that mean I'm at the level where I'll beat him at Nationals? Not even close. For a "broke fat guy" as he says, the dude can move like a cat.

[Dr. No]

The top 16 at Nationals all shot within 10% of Ben, but that isn't really my point. My point is that the only guys who are shooting, and sometimes seriously exceeding, the HHF on classifiers for record are the guys who win or are in contention to win Nationals or Area matches. My theory based on that evidence is that there should be some shooters who don't fit this mold if USPSA matches aren't primarily about "shooting," which I assume we can agree that classifiers are.

I don't know how this got to HHF....

I think you're looking at the numbers the wrong way. It seems fairly obvious that the top 16 are going to slaughter classifiers. Instead why don't we look at GM's not in the top 16 and see what their percentage is at nationals. I think you'd agree that classifiers are a test of shooting with little to no movement, while nationals are a test of both.

[joshs]

I don't know how this got to HHF....

I think you're looking at the numbers the wrong way. It seems fairly obvious that the top 16 are going to slaughter classifiers. Instead why don't we look at GM's not in the top 16 and see what their percentage is at nationals. I think you'd agree that classifiers are a test of shooting with little to no movement, while nationals are a test of both.

Because, as you point out, classifiers are about "shooting," and not what you consider the other 80% of USPSA.

Since classifiers are about shooting, we can look to them as an example of who are clearly the best "shooters." (At least given USPSA scoring).

If there were shooters who are really good at shooting, but not at the other 80% of what it takes to be good at USPSA, I'd expect they would be able to shoot classifiers as well as the shooters who win or place in the top 5 at Nationals or a well attended Area match.

This doesn't seem to happen. The only people I've seen with consistent "100%s" in their classification records are the guys who win or place very highly at Nationals or well attended Area matches.

So, my point is that the best shooters win.

To help with the gigantic derail, on the OPs question, I think you need to decide what you want out of shooting USPSA.

Do you want to shoot an HK because it's similar to your carry gun or because it's still an HK? If the former, I'd at least shoot a pistol that has the same trigger system.

[Talionis]

Entries, exits, shooting on the move vs static, efficiency in footwork and balance, setups, planning nuances, cadence, target transitions, etc - all of these are things that deal with time when we're not shooting.



I guess I don't quite get what you're trying to say other than "Ben is a better shooter, of course he wins". Ben and Eric slaughter the competition because they are ruthlessly consistent and don't faulter under pressure. They also are on the absolute razor's edge of movement skills.

Ask yourself this.

If you could consistently shoot 100% classifiers, with your same level of movement now, how much do you think your winning percentage would improve?

My whole point in the 80/20 thing is the 20% takes a lot of work to get to. Don't get me wrong, I've busted my ass for years to shoot to the level I do. I realized once I got here that I still had a long way to go... I beat Rob Leatham on a shooting competition - 1 shot, from the draw - head at 7y. Does that mean I'm at the level where I'll beat him at Nationals? Not even close. For a "broke fat guy" as he says, the dude can move like a cat.

Ok, now I think I'm developing an understanding of what you're getting at. The bolded parts of your post are all aspects of shooting in my mind. If we stipulate that for the context of this conversation simply standing and shooting at one target is shooting then I agree.

Consistency to my mind is also directly tied to overall shooting skill. An A class that occasionally strings together a 95% classifier is waaaaaay behind me, not to mention a top 16 GM. My main point with that is not different than what you mention, Ben and Eric are so good at shooting that they can shred nearly every time. Sure, I can put together a stage that is close to them, but they do it for the whole match.

If I could shoot 100% classifiers consistently with my current movement and stage planning, it would net me about 10% at nationals.

[Dr. No]

Ok, now I think I'm developing an understanding of what you're getting at. The bolded parts of your post are all aspects of shooting in my mind. If we stipulate that for the context of this conversation simply standing and shooting at one target is shooting then I agree.

Consistency to my mind is also directly tied to overall shooting skill. An A class that occasionally strings together a 95% classifier is waaaaaay behind me, not to mention a top 16 GM. My main point with that is not different than what you mention, Ben and Eric are so good at shooting that they can shred nearly every time. Sure, I can put together a stage that is close to them, but they do it for the whole match.

If I could shoot 100% classifiers consistently with my current movement and stage planning, it would net me about 10% at nationals.

You get it. I think the difference is you are defining "being good at shooting" as having good marksmanship and uspsa skills. There are lots of people good at shooting. People who win steel challenge are good at shooting. People who win sniper's hide. People who win horse mounted shooting. SASS. Etc.

All of those have litte to nothing to do with *movement*. USPSA places a very heavy emphasis on *movement* hence my comments on an arbitrary percentage.

I think we've kinda played this one out.

[Dagga Boy]

I made the observation long ago that a near perfect balance of the Combat Triad of Marksmanship, Mindset, and Gun Handling/Tactics is a critical component of winning gunfights. I also observed more recently that the same factors of Match Marksmanship, Match Mindset, and match Gun Handling/Tactics are just as critical component in winning a match as they are in winning a gunfight.

[GJM]

M in Limited.


Just to add some more detail, Gabe is a 90.78 in Limited, shooting a Glock, minor, from concealment.

[taadski]

Speed becomes super important when the other guy is pointing a gun at you ........ I'd say being able to shoot accurately under stress faster than the other guy is a fairly encompassing idea of what marksmanship really means.

Stacking rounds on top of each other is great and means you have a lot of talent. But if it takes you 10 minutes to put 10 rounds in one hole, it's not terribly "practical" ... hence the USPSA "Practical" moniker.


I've been pretty befuddled over the years that more professional gun toters aren't more speed focused. There are many who are content resting on their proverbial laurels. I understand speed can be a crucial element, all else being equal.

My point was that the term marksmanship can encompass all types of "hitting what you're shooting at." Be it slow fire NRA bullseye or putting rounds in the perp trying to shoot you. But the basic term itself doesn't inherently have to involve speed.




t

[Mr_White]

Entries, exits, shooting on the move vs static, efficiency in footwork and balance, setups, planning nuances, cadence, target transitions

I think we are just mentally categorizing things differently and using different language to discuss them. Most of what you list there are things that I consider shooting skills or variations of shooting skills. I don't think we really have a lot of disagreement. I was just pretty shocked at someone who obviously does know about USPSA saying it is only 20% about shooting. But I see it's just an issue of language and categorization.

[SLG]

Not really a challenge, just curious. I've stuck with LEM for over two years for USPSA and it's been my predominant system since late '11. I don't shoot much USPSA and I am simply not good but still, I am just a C after what I've put in, dry fire and such. I don't know anyone who has done much better, yet this thread is full of assertions how LEM can support just about any level of achievement. I would like to see a factual confirmation, if anything, for my piece of mind. What I don't care to see is people who don't shoot LEM or haven't done much better than I with it tell me how capable it is, although it is possible that I suck more than I think I do :)

I have never carried or trained with an lem, yet i have picked up TLG's lem p30,,on multiple occasions, and shot clean sub 5 second fast drills, as well as other benchmarks like 2 sec bill drills and 7 sec el pres without any issue. If i shot uspsa, id be happy to shoot an a classifier with one to prove it to you, but that seems somewhat unlikely to happen. Since i can do it with a revolver, im not sure what there is to discuss.

I asert that there is no major manufacturers gun that cannot shoot an a classification. Even the compacts, which is what i was using when i made a class.

Eta.

Actually, now that i think about it, i have no idea what i can do on a classifier at all. I dont think i ever shot any classifiers particulalry well. I earned a class at nationals, in competition, which i think (biased, obviously) is the only type of classification that matters. Classifiers are to uspsa, as quals are to gunfighting.


I also agree that "shooting" is a relativley small percentage of winning. I think i do b etter in competition thsn classifiers because i cant shoot as well as the top guys, but i can move better than most of the rest. Also, mental game is huge. Lots of gamers no nothing about mental toughness.

[GJM]

I have never carried or trained with an lem, yet i have picked up TLG's lem p30,,on multiple occasions, and shot clean sub 5 second fast drills, as well as other benchmarks like 2 sec bill drills and 7 sec el pres without any issue. If i shot uspsa, id be happy to shoot an a classifier with one to prove it to you, but that seems somewhat unlikely to happen. Since i can do it with a revolver, im not sure what there is to discuss.

I asert that there is no major manufacturers gun that cannot shoot an a classification. Even the compacts, which is what i was using when i made a class.


I don't think YVK was asking whether it is possible to shoot a USPSA A classifier with a LEM trigger, as certainly it is. He was asking if someone here has actually shot an A or higher USPSA classifier with a LEM trigger to post it here, with a link to the classifier and score.

Nyeti's point, which he made here and to me in person, was that the LEM trigger has a bunch going for it, but shooting best scores in gun games is not an attribute of the LEM trigger. To my knowledge, Dr No primarily shot a DA/SA in competition, like the HK team.

What I found notable, was when someone in this thread said they shot a P30L .40 LEM from concealment and didn't shoot a single A classifier, but actually made A in Limited (which takes a lot more than just one good classifier). That would be a prodigious accomplishment, although apparently there may have been a misunderstanding in the translation.

[GJM]

One more point, reference SLG's comment about classifiers. While there are exceptions, and certainly the classification system is not perfect, my experience is that classification percentage is a pretty good proxy for match performance.

[SLG]

I don't think YVK was asking whether it is possible to shoot a USPSA A classifier with a LEM trigger, as certainly it is. He was asking if someone here has actually shot an A or higher USPSA classifier with a LEM trigger to post it here, with a link to the classifier and score.

Nyeti's point, which he made here and to me in person, was that the LEM trigger has a bunch going for it, but shooting best scores in gun games is not an attribute of the LEM trigger. To my knowledge, Dr No primarily shot a DA/SA in competition, like the HK team.

What I found notable, was when someone in this thread said they shot a P30L .40 LEM from concealment and didn't shoot a single A classifier, but actually made A in Limited (which takes a lot more than just one good classifier). That would be a prodigious accomplishment, although apparently there may have been a misunderstanding in the translation.

Copy.

I think we were posting at the same time.

[SLG]

One more point, reference SLG's comment about classifiers. While there are exceptions, and certainly the classification system is not perfect, my experience is that classification percentage is a pretty good proxy for match performance.

That is probably true much of the time.


I forgot to answer the op's question, though others have already. I would shoot your duty gun and see how it goes.

[joshs]

I don't think YVK was asking whether it is possible to shoot a USPSA A classifier with a LEM trigger, as certainly it is. He was asking if someone here has actually shot an A or higher USPSA classifier with a LEM trigger to post it here, with a link to the classifier and score.

I misunderstood his question. Here is my classification record when I was shooting a P30 LEM in USPSA:

10/27/12 06-01 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING Y 79.5172 12/11/12
9/28/12 99-10 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING D 59.7695 11/09/12
6/16/12 99-10 PEACEMAKER NATIONAL PRACTICAL SHOOTERS F 73.9634 6/25/12
3/31/12 99-13 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING Y 78.4336 4/11/12
3/18/12 99-10 NORTH MOUNTAIN PRACTICAL SHOOTERS D 73.5966 4/06/12
11/06/11 03-08 FREDERICKSBURG ROD & GUN CLUB F 77.0636 11/10/11
9/30/11 09-10 SIR WALTER GUN CLUB E 70.8015 10/10/11
9/24/11 99-10 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 65.2554 10/11/11
9/18/11 99-23 NORTH MOUNTAIN PRACTICAL SHOOTERS E 67.4012 10/06/11
8/27/11 99-28 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 69.6364 9/12/11
4/23/11 06-04 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 70.6377 5/12/11

[SLG]

I also agree that "shooting" is a relativley small percentage of winning.

I judt checked with my friendly neighborhood uspsa expert, and she disagrees with me.

[GJM]

I misunderstood his question. Here is my classification record when I was shooting a P30 LEM in USPSA:

10/27/12 06-01 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING Y 79.5172 12/11/12
9/28/12 99-10 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING D 59.7695 11/09/12
6/16/12 99-10 PEACEMAKER NATIONAL PRACTICAL SHOOTERS F 73.9634 6/25/12
3/31/12 99-13 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING Y 78.4336 4/11/12
3/18/12 99-10 NORTH MOUNTAIN PRACTICAL SHOOTERS D 73.5966 4/06/12
11/06/11 03-08 FREDERICKSBURG ROD & GUN CLUB F 77.0636 11/10/11
9/30/11 09-10 SIR WALTER GUN CLUB E 70.8015 10/10/11
9/24/11 99-10 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 65.2554 10/11/11
9/18/11 99-23 NORTH MOUNTAIN PRACTICAL SHOOTERS E 67.4012 10/06/11
8/27/11 99-28 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 69.6364 9/12/11
4/23/11 06-04 SUMMIT POINT ACTION SHOOTING E 70.6377 5/12/11

Josh, thanks! Can you provide some analysis. As I recall you are now a Production M and shoot a 34?

Does this show you shot three A classifiers with the P30, and did you become an A with the P30 or something else?

[Mr_White]

Good info joshs, thanks for posting that.

I agree that doing well in USPSA is primarily and overwhelmingly about shooting. And not just standing and shooting, but shooting integrated with a full spectrum of movement as well as some tough positioning. That's something that I've come to see as a higher order of shooting skill. I guess what I am really doing here is agreeing with the basic philosophy behind 'practical shooting' - using the venue of competition to create pressure and test shooting and gunhandling across a variety of shooting problems and integrate that shooting with a wide spectrum of physical movement and position. And it tests some other things too, but I don't conceptualize those other things as anywhere near 80% of doing well. I've looked at a bunch of classification records, as I've found the USPSA classification system to be both frustrating and fascinating. Sure looks to me like the people who do the best and most consistent shooting on classifiers also do the best in matches, though there are some finer points and variation by individual in there too. I see USPSA as being about on-demand shooting and gunhandling more than anything else.

OP: I think you have to decide what your root interest is. If it's to do well in USPSA, you might go with a pure gaming gun, or at least one that is a juiced-up version of your duty/defense gun, like you were talking about doing. If your root interest is to use USPSA to improve your abilities with your duty/defense gun in the ways that it can do that, and the game is subordinate to that interest, then I think the thing to do is use your actual duty gun and gear, or exact copies of them. You might have to shoot Limited or Open if your gear doesn't fit in Production, but if your interest is purely defensive, then so what.

[Mr_White]

I judt checked with my friendly neighborhood uspsa expert, and she disagrees with me.

LOL

[taadski]

I judt checked with my friendly neighborhood uspsa expert, and she disagrees with me.


LOL.

[joshs]

I'm a Production M, but I don't really shoot much Production other than shooting a couple of classifiers last year so I could make M in Production so that I could avoid being classified B in Limited, which is all I've been shooting because I wanna be like Gabe (except I'm shooting a 19 instead of a 34).

I actually excluded the final classifier I shot with the P30, it was:

8/03/13 99-11 PEACEMAKER NATIONAL PRACTICAL SHOOTERS D 82.5356 8/29/13

Based on that classifier, I made A.

[joshs]

I judt checked with my friendly neighborhood uspsa expert, and she disagrees with me.

She seems like a really smart lady. I would listen to her. :)

[Danjojo]

Nobody has any love for the Combat Competition?

[JHC]

Nobody has any love for the Combat Competition?

Is that where the scoring just totals alphas with time being used just to break alpha ties?

[eyemahm]

Nobody has any love for the Combat Competition?

Love for LEM (match or otherwise) and the USP platform seems to be in short supply among the serious gamers.

I've only seen one person, who I think is/was affiliated with HK running a USP, Matt Holmes. He set it up like a combat competition but TDA. This was in Idpa so it was ESP. I'm not sure whether he used it in USPSA - if it would be OK in production or if he maybe had a version in 40.

My understanding re the downside to the USP platform for competition purposes is that the dual recoil system makes them flippy and inconsistent, though it does a great job of ensuring frame/parts longevity. Bruce Gray made reference to modifying (removing) their small spring and messing with the main recoil spring weight in order to make the sights return more consistently.

If anyone else has experience running a USP at a high level, I'd be very curious to hear how it was set up.

[GRV]

[...]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, and maybe this has already been stated in this thread, but was it Matt you said had something to say about the platform not running faster than ~.23 in splits? Ironically, CCT125US completely unprovoked mentioned to me the other day that his splits are capped at around that range.

eta

The conclusion being, I'm hearing it enough now that I'm starting to think modern HK hammer fired 9mms (USP, P2000, P30) are indeed very hard to shoot any faster than that.

[SLG]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, and maybe this has already been stated in this thread, but was it Matt you said had something to say about the platform not running faster than ~.23 in splits? Ironically, CCT125US completely unprovoked mentioned to me the other day that his splits are capped at around that range.

eta

The conclusion being, I'm hearing it enough now that I'm starting to think modern HK hammer fired 9mms (USP, P2000, P30) are indeed very hard to shoot any faster than that.

Todd used to shoot his P30 quite a bit faster than that. LEM and all.

[eyemahm]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, and maybe this has already been stated in this thread, but was it Matt you said had something to say about the platform not running faster than ~.23 in splits? Ironically, CCT125US completely unprovoked mentioned to me the other day that his splits are capped at around that range.

eta

The conclusion being, I'm hearing it enough now that I'm starting to think modern HK hammer fired 9mms (USP, P2000, P30) are indeed very hard to shoot any faster than that.

I'm pretty sure that was Bruce who mentioned .22-.23 as the edge of USP stability but I'll try to track down his blog /forum post where he mentions that.

Todd used to shoot his P30 quite a bit faster than that. LEM and all.
The instability at speed issue was supposedly with the dual recoil spring guns that are apparently well known for the obnoxious figure 8 muzzle movement, not the pistols like the P30 with the plastic buffer. I know folks here run those in the mid to high teens.

Also, I say supposedly, because I definitely have this problem with the USP but not the p2000sk, which also has an unfortunate case of "twins".

[GRV]

This is why it's usually best for me to keep my mouth shut. It was Bruce's USP thing I was thinking about then. You'll have to forgive me, to me HK has made two 9mm pistols as of 1980-something: the P7 series, and all those other things. :rolleyes: For a guy that wears an HK hat, I'm really uneducated on them.



Todd used to shoot his P30 quite a bit faster than that. LEM and all.

Yea...I had a feeling you were going to show up saying that :p

[JonInWA]

I'm a bit surprised that everyone on this thread seems fixated on the hammer-fired HKs-Why not a VP40 or VP9 for USPSA? I's think that the VP40 would be a bit of a natural for it....

Best, Jon'm

[JBP55]

I'm a bit surprised that everyone on this thread seems fixated on the hammer-fired HKs-Why not a VP40 or VP9 for USPSA? I's think that the VP40 would be a bit of a natural for it....

Best, Jon'm

I could carry one of my HK's with a different serial number every day of the week and none are hammer fired.

[Luke]

My P30 has seen .15's more than once :)

[psalms144.1]

When I was shooting my P2000/P30 LEMs consistently, I was averaging sub-.2 splits. I could get down to .15, but my groups got sloppier than I was willing to accept at that speed.

[HCM]

Is that where the scoring just totals alphas with time being used just to break alpha ties?

Just so there is not confusion - the HK USP Combat Competition model:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Heckler-Koch-Combat-Competition-Pistol-9mm-p999.htm

[Casual Friday]

M in Limited.


...shooting 9mm minor, with a stock Glock, concealed AIWB...


Just to add some more detail, Gabe is a 90.78 in Limited, shooting a Glock, minor, from concealment.

Mr_White is a bad mofo.

[GJM]

Mr_White is a bad mofo.

Way bad!

It has been brought to my attention that Gabe has even been recognized by his esteemed colleagues on Doodie Project, noting his new magazine fame.

[taadski]

Yes, "esteemed". LOL. :p


And not to let the cat completely out of the bag or anything, but rumors have it our own Mr. White is getting ready to make a formal public class announcement and take things on the road!

Soon™


[runs away]

[Mr_White]

Yes, "esteemed". LOL. :p


And not to let the cat completely out of the bag or anything, but rumors have it our own Mr. White is getting ready to make a formal public class announcement and take things on the road!

Soon™


[runs away]

You better run, lol

[Dr. No]

I'm a bit surprised that everyone on this thread seems fixated on the hammer-fired HKs-Why not a VP40 or VP9 for USPSA? I's think that the VP40 would be a bit of a natural for it....

Best, Jon'm

The VP9 is a great competitor in the production category. The 40 is too light to compete well against full house STI's in Limited.

They both run circles around the other HK hammer guns.