How small is too small?

[NCmtnman]

So how small is too small for a fighting subcompact?

The reason I ask is because of an experience I had at my LGS with the HK P30sk when it came out. I carried the P2000 for almost 5 years on duty and was hell bent on buying the P30sk. After trying a few magazine changes I realized that the bottom of the grip forced me to place my pinky underneath the magazine which made a magazine chage/swap/drop difficult unless I released my grip somewhat. The P2000sk did not force me to place my pinky below as it has no finger grooves and a somewhat longer grip prior to mating with the trigger guard (just my thought). I still have to loosen my grip, but to a lesser extent and do not have to focus on moving my small finger out of the way. The G27 I carry is the same as the P30sk for me unless I carry the mag extension which I normally do when out and about. This led me to question if I'm losing more than I'm gaining by carrying the subcompact if I cannot change the magazine in a subconscious manner. I found it odd that the newer design was more a detraction for me rather than what I was hoping to be a real upgrade.

When we think of a fighting sized weapon I know it is usually a G19/P2000 sized gun but that is not always what we have available at the moment so I wanted to focus on experiences with the smaller double stacks. Thoughts or experiences with this?

[Nephrology]

As a boring, non-LEO or military average joe, my non-expert conclusion is that 1) I am very, very unlikely to require a spare magazine should I need to use my carry pistol in self defense, and 2) that a capacity of 5 rounds or greater is likely to be enough, but I have a strong preference for 10 rounds or more in a handgun that is reasonably easy to shoot.

For this reason, I have no problem carrying a Glock 26, and do so with great frequency.

[voodoo_man]

While there maybe a general consensus that a Glock 19 sized pistol is the best gap bridging "combat" pistol available, when it comes down to it, you have to make the determination for yourself.

My personal suggestion is that you figure out what the best pistol is for you which provides you with the best possible advantage regarding speed, effectiveness and rate of fire while sacrificing the least possible amount of barrel length.

The obvious issue you will eventually run into is that the length of the barrel will be very connected to the magazine size. As we know, more bullets means more time in the fight which means more possibilities of using overpowering force.

[David S.]

There is no one-size-fits-all right answer.
Only you determine your personal risk tolerance, so the choice is completely subjective.
Smaller guns are a bigger compromise.
You have to find the right compromise for the conditions you face.
Those conditions are continuously changing.

Personally,
I carry a full size gun most of the time when dressed casual (shorts, jeans, untucked shirt).
I haven't found a way for me to conceal a full size gun in business casual under my specific set of circumstances. In that case, I must be willing to compromise my shootability for a deeper level of concealment, or find a different mode of dress.

[okie john]

There is no one-size-fits-all right answer.
Only you determine your personal risk tolerance, so the choice is completely subjective.
Smaller guns are a bigger compromise.
You have to find the right compromise for the conditions you face.
Those conditions are continuously changing.

Personally,
I carry a full size gun most of the time when dressed casual (shorts, jeans, untucked shirt).
I haven't found a way for me to conceal a full size gun in business casual under my specific set of circumstances. In that case, I must be willing to compromise my shootability for a deeper level of concealment, or find a different mode of dress.

This.

I find that I can conceal a G19 about as easily as I can conceal a G26. I have the same problem with the G26 and the G43 that the OP has with the P30sk, but the G43 is enough easier to conceal that I sold my G26.


Okie John

[NCmtnman]

This.

I find that I can conceal a G19 about as easily as I can conceal a G26. I have the same problem with the G26 and the G43 that the OP has with the P30sk, but the G43 is enough easier to conceal that I sold my G26.


Okie John

That is kind of where I am at currently. Possibly going to a G43 and then carry a G19 sized gun when out of the office is a good compromise.

[HopetonBrown]

Ken Hackathorn has a simple 5 round test for concealed carry pistols. http://soldiersystems.net/2014/12/06/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-7/

[StraitR]

This is a constant source of self evaluation and introspection for me. Here is my approach.

Identify my skill cliff - There is very distinct performance drop for me when I reach a certain pistol size. A 17 to 19 is not noticeable, but the timer, target, and bullets don't lie when I go from a 19 to 43. Clearly, this is a training issue, and can be addressed to lessen the skill gap from the 19 to 43. I'm sure there are people who can run the 43 like a boss, but I have neither the time or money to attempt the same. My skill cliff is at a compact size gun, where one step further into a sub-compact and the drop in performance is very noticeable.

Prioritize comfort levels - Physical comfort/discomfort and mental comfort/discomfort. Carrying a 43/J-frame is physically comfortable (extremely) for me, but mentally uncomfortable. An all steel 1911 becomes physically uncomfortable after a few hours, but remains mentally comfortable due to confidence gained through time. A 19 is both physically and mentally comfortable, so that's where I stay (usually).

Everyone must weigh out performance vs comfort, and decide for themselves. There's only one way to find out if you made the right decision, and nobody wants to know that bad.

I wish I could say that I'm 100% dedicated to carrying my 19, but I can't. There are times I grab a 43, or a 638 J-frame, but there are also days I randomly carry a 17. All this tells me is that I've yet to determine a single best answer and consciously or subconsciously I'm continually weighing and prioritizing my skill/comfort levels. Right or wrong.

[NCmtnman]

This is a constant source of self evaluation and introspection for me. Here is my approach.

Identify my skill cliff - There is very distinct performance drop for me when I reach a certain pistol size. A 17 to 19 is not noticeable, but the timer, target, and bullets don't lie when I go from a 19 to 43. Clearly, this is a training issue, and can be addressed to lessen the skill gap from the 19 to 43. I'm sure there are people who can run the 43 like a boss, but I have neither the time or money to attempt the same. My skill cliff is at a compact size gun, where one step further into a sub-compact and the drop in performance is very noticeable.



I have never heard of that before. Good points.

[okie john]

I have never heard of that before. Good points.

Yes. Much wisdom there.


Okie John

[Peally]

Being poor has benefits. I just carry the same full size everywhere year round.

[BehindBlueI's]

There's no one size fits all answer (heh), but some points to ponder:

1) What's your threat level? Are you being actively targeted? (crazy ex stalking you, your occupation puts you at risk, witness in a high profile case, etc.) If so, requirements can change. Your attacker will likely be more dedicated, give you less warning, and distances will likely be longer. All those things push you toward a larger gun in most cases. Random violence is generally closer, is not an ambush, and is resolved very quickly one way or the other. Frankly, most people will run out of time before they run out of ammo, either the threat is down/fleeing or they are.

2) What's the penalty for being made? I'm a cop in a pretty pro-gun state with no penalties legally, employment related, or socially for being made. That's good for the full size gun. Risking getting fired or arrested if you get made? Well...trade offs may be required.

3) What's YOUR skill level with the given gun IN THE CONTEXTS YOU ARE LIKELY TO FACE? I don't really care how well you shoot ninjas out of trees at 150y with it. Can you get it out and get an "A" box hit at 7y quickly? That's more relevant for CCW.

In the end it's all trade offs. The trade offs for me for carrying a full size are negligible for routine carry, so I carry a P226. When I go out of state and my threat profile changes (no one knows I'm a cop) and the hassle of getting made goes up, I switch to a P245.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I carry 4 sec. capacity pistols, so I'm assured of a full grip and ease of magazine changes.

[GJM]

I carry 4 sec. capacity pistols, so I'm assured of a full grip and ease of magazine changes.

LEM trigger? :)

[taadski]

I carry 4 sec. capacity pistols, so I'm assured of a full grip and ease of magazine changes.

What is a 4 sec. capacity pistol?

[HopetonBrown]

What is a 4 sec. capacity pistol?
.25 splits would be a Glock 19.

[JAD]

.25 splits would be a Glock 19.

Or an UZI with a forty round stick.

[Shawn Dodson]

My rule-of-thumb guide:

If you have to re-adjust your grip after every shot or two then the gun is too small.

If it's too painful to shoot a full magazine rapid fire then the gun is too small.

[warpedcamshaft]

I'll carry anything I can pass Hackathorn's 5 shot "Wizard Drill" with on a consistent basis from my carry method.

I carry small guns a lot more now due to shifting concealment requirements.

[eyemahm]

This is a constant source of self evaluation and introspection for me. Here is my approach.

Identify my skill cliff - There is very distinct performance drop for me when I reach a certain pistol size. A 17 to 19 is not noticeable, but the timer, target, and bullets don't lie when I go from a 19 to 43. Clearly, this is a training issue, and can be addressed to lessen the skill gap from the 19 to 43. I'm sure there are people who can run the 43 like a boss, but I have neither the time or money to attempt the same. My skill cliff is at a...

For me, it's at a double stack sub compact, though I've never tried a single stack with decent sights.

I've put almost as many practice and match rounds through my p2000sk as I have my USP Expert and found within 10 yards, I can shoot them about the same.

For a place with longer sight lines or elevated risk scenarios, the Expert is the choice, no question.

Like straightr said, size and holster choice plays into it alot. The SK is super comfy and easy to forget about in leather. The expert is not forgettable in kydex, but jrc is trying to change that right now. Ymmv.


PS. That's what she said.

[NCmtnman]

LEM trigger? :)

Cheap shot... Maybe he's going for accuracy :cool:

[Casual Friday]

P2000/G19/Sig Pro sized guns are my happy place. Smaller than that and this mediocre shooter becomes a terrible shooter.

[Peally]

I want Tam to make a post so I can say "that's what she said"

[Beat Trash]

This is a hard question to answer in a serious manner. Especially knowing my post will follow Peally's...

It really depends on the size of the individual's hand. For me, the Glock 43 is too small. For my wife's substantially smaller hands, the Glock 43 works well.

When I find myself having to adjust my grip and trigger finger substantially to get rounds to go where I want them to go, then the gun is most likely too small. When my hand starts to cramp while trying to maintain control of the gun and prevent it from squirming around within my hand during the recoil process, it's too small. For example, I broke down and bought my wife a Glock 42 in 380, before the Glock 43 was announced. Mechanically it's a functional gun, but for me, I just can't hold onto the thing. Luckily for my peace of mind, I convinced my wife she could conceal the Glock 43 just as well as the Glock 42 (I am not a fan of the 380 cartridge for defensive usage).

With this being said, there is a place for guns that are too small to be an effective fighting subcompact . At times I will find myself on vacation in a low threat location that can be hot. Sanibel Island Florida for example. It is a very nice place with a very low violent crime rate and low threat level. As I am on vacation in a low threat environment I'd be tempted to go unarmed. But my faith in humanity has limits... So a pocket gun in the docker type of shorts I favor is now my fighting subcompact. Over the years, guns too small for my hands such as the S&W 642 or Kahr PM9 have served this roll. Last couple of years, the Shield with the 7 rd magazine was pressed into service. Next trip, I can see the Glock 43 taking over this roll.

By definition, the Glock 43 is too small for my hands to be an effective subcompact fighting gun. But if I happen to be in my personal corner of paradise and suddenly confronted with a situation where my lack of faith in humanity is justified, then the Glock 43 in my pocket will become my fighting gun. Whether it would be effective or not depends on me.

My point is that in addition to what others have posted, you also have to take into consideration the context in which the subcompact will be used. There is a reason many of us strive to carry a full sized gun or at least a Glock 19 sized gun as much as possible. The subcompact is a compromise that many chose not to make unless absolutely necessary.

[okie john]

There is a reason many of us strive to carry a full sized gun or at least a Glock 19 sized gun as much as possible. The subcompact is a compromise that many chose not to make unless absolutely necessary.

Wisdom.


Okie John

[gtmtnbiker98]

LEM trigger? :)

That was funny.

[gtmtnbiker98]

What is a 4 sec. capacity pistol?

.25 splits, 4 rounds per second X 4 seconds = 16 rounds. Or, 1 round fired via LEM per George.

[Hauptmann]

For the majority of civilians, you will never need a gun in an encounter with another human unless you live in a high crime area. Then, if you do need a gun you will likely stop the threat by only brandishing it. If that doesn't work, then the vast majority of civilian shootings involve an average of 2 shots before the threat is stopped. I haven't checked FBI statistics from the last two years, but previous years have followed these statics closely. Generally the media only reports the high profile shootings involving controversial characteristics such as race baiting, "assault weapons",.....etc.

As an LEO, I have drawn my off duty weapon twice on a BG, and countless times on duty. I feel quite comfortable using either my Sig P239 9mm(8+1rds), or my Sig P245 .45acp(6+1rds) off duty. I do not have confidence in anything smaller than a 9mm based on some of the shootings I have seen, and I feel that 9mm requires good shot placement. That being said, pick a platform that is small and light enough to maximize comfort, but one that you can shoot well under time constraints and at range. Personally, I feel that I should be able to shoot my BUG decently at 25yrds.

[Sammy1]

I've carried just about everything and something is better than nothing but we shouldn't get over confident in our choices. A good example is a Ruger LCP or S&W J frame with standard sights. Standing there stationary at the range, shooting at paper with all the time in the world you may be able to make the shot but real life is different. Don't judge your abilities from a static range. In real life that target at 5 yds is actually shooting at you and or moving in on you with a knife. Though I still do carry a J frame at times I don't kid myself about being able to take down an active shooter twelve yards away with innocent people running between me and the threat. Take a Sig p232, even though it's a 380 (same as the LCP) it has the ability to be a fighting handgun for me because of the grip and sights. The Glock 42/43 and many others can be fighting handguns for the same reasons. Just my 2 cents.