Firsthand account of defensive use of a folding knife in a Hawaii hotel

[LittleLebowski]

<Posted with the permission of the individual involved, "NWRed" at ARF. Much thanks to him for sharing his hard won knowledge>


I'm posting a written statement of the events that happened on Tues the 24th in Waikiki, Hawaii.

I've been working in Honolulu and staying in Waikiki pretty much all of 2015, home for a week in mid February and then went back. I'm home now for good and clear of all criminal charges in the incident. Other then this one event I had a good time working and living in Honolulu. Lots of time at the beach and my coworkers and most of the other locals I met or had interactions with were super friendly.

Tactically I'm aware I made some mistakes and lived anyhow. 24 hours in a jail cell immediately after the fact to examine your actions is plenty of time to see some flaws. I already had a return ticket for the 27th and that played a part in deciding to talk to the Detective without an attorney. I assumed that telling the truth and hopefully having audio from the 911 calls would assist in my defense. I dont know how big a part it played but the sum total at the end was my exoneration from criminal charges.

On March 24th at approximately 8:30 PM I was in my hotel room, 3rd floor #327 located approximately halfway down the 100’ long hallway, oriented north-south with an exterior exit/stairway on each end. I was in the bathroom preparing to shower when I heard a commotion in the hallway. I looked through the peephole and saw the door to the adjacent room (#330) was open and there were 2 people visible just inside the doorway. At that time a black or dark colored female was forced/pushed/kicked across the hallway and rammed her face into my door. I went and put on my dirty work pants back on and dialed 911 to report a fight in my hotel.

I opened the door and there was a white male, late 30s early 40s, and the same female who‘d run into my door, in her 20s-early 30s. They were struggling just inside the doorway to the room across the hall from me. She was saying “stop/help me” etc and appeared to be trying to leave the room and was being restrained. I informed 911 that there was a fight between a white male and a black female on the 3rd floor of my hotel, I was unable to give the exact address, just the name of the hotel. I told the male he needed to leave her alone and he stopped pushing/pulling her into the room and came across the hallway. He struck me, I can’t recall if it was a slap or a punch, but my eyeglasses were knocked off. The female ran off for the north exit to the stairs and after a second the male pursued her.

I picked up my glasses, closed my door and tossed my glasses on the counter in my bathroom. I grabbed a t-shirt and put on my slip on boots, and called 911 again to update them the aggressor had left the 3rd floor and that I wanted to press charges. I got about 10 feet down the hallway from my door when they both came through the doorway at the end of the hallway. She was upset and saying she just wanted her things, I tried taking pictures while still on the phone with 911. 911 was asking how to get in to my secured hotel, it wasn’t a secured building prior to 10pm, and I told them they needed to hurry up etc. I was able to get some crappy pictures of both the male and female to help identify them if they fled the scene. I retreated to my hotel room’s threshold and stood in the open doorway. He gave her the room keycard and she used it to open the door and then threw the card down the hall. As soon as she was inside the doorway he started pushing her in again. I was still talking to 911 and stepped out of my doorway and started verbally confronting the male telling him to leave her alone/ the cops are coming, that sort of stuff. He came back into the hallway and stood in front of me and told me to mind my own business. He then turned and walked to the south end of the hallway and pulled a key card from his pocket and attempted to enter another room, #334A IIRC. After several unsuccessful tries he realized the black female was leaving room #330 and was heading for the north exit again.

I stepped into the hallway from my doorway’s threshold and took a few steps backwards towards the north exit to allow him plenty of room to return to #330 without putting myself in his striking distance. He walked straight up to me, I don’t recall if he said anything but I told him he needed to just hang out /cops were coming/leave her alone. He took a swing and I turned my head and took the hit behind my ear on my left. I’m pretty sure he hit me twice and I took out my ZT350 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00GU0PSO2&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20), flipped out the blade and held it down behind my right thigh. I told him I didn’t want to fight/had kids to feed/places to be tomorrow. He took another swing , I leaned in to avoid his punch and I stabbed him in his exposed left abdomen. Zero response, he took another swing, I stabbed him a second time.

I honestly thought I’d missed his body and had just gotten his shirt both times. He kicked me using a straight out “MMA/UFC” type kick in my left hip as I was standing in a Weaver style position, trying to guard my head with my left and the ZT (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00GU0PSO2&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) in my right. I backed up a couple steps and he closed the distance and tried to kick me a couple more times and then swung again and I stabbed him another time. I thought I stabbed him in the abdomen 4 times but until I read the police reports I don’t know for certain how many times I actually made contact. At that point I was a little dismayed that he wasn’t slowing down or stopping and recalled a gem from a Surefire magazine article from several years ago about using a knife to defend yourself and stabbed him on the left side of his neck the next time he took a swing.

He seemed confused at that point and I told him if we keep going, he’s going to die. I told him he was going to bleed to death if he didn’t stop. He finally realized I had a knife and that his shirt was covered in blood. It looked like he had a bubbling red water feature going under his shirt, there was enough pressure that the blood was pulsing through the shirt slightly. He called me a pussy, and a “nigger” for using a knife. I told him he needed to calm down, sit down and apply pressure to his wounds before he bled out. He took a few steps and leaned up against his doorway and I picked up my cell phone from where I’d dropped it and tried to call 911 again.

A woman stuck her head out of room #334A and asked what was going on, I said the guy on the floor was beating a woman and I stabbed him after he attacked me and he’d been trying to get into her room. She said she heard someone messing with the door and closed her door. Wtf?

A guy came from one of the rooms on the south end and asked if everything was ok. I told him that guy on the floor was beating a woman and attacked me and got stabbed, please call an ambulance because I couldn’t get my phone to work. He took off running to the north exit, presumably to the lobby. I managed to get my phone to dial 911 again and told them we needed an ambulance immediately, white male stabbed multiple times in need of immediate medical assistance. While I was on the phone he continued to complain about being stabbed, I told him to shut up, calm down and apply pressure or you’re going to die 3 or 4 times.

Shortly thereafter a police officer came through the north exit and asked what was going on. I explained this guy attacked a woman and me and I stabbed him. He told me to put down my knife and go stand up against the wall down the hallway. I was cuffed and frisked and sat down on the floor. More cops and the ambulance crew finally showed up. The aggressor was named Dominic/Domino/? and was from Chicago. He told the paramedics he’d had 2 drinks per hour, but couldn’t tell them when he started drinking. He couldn’t get the decade right on his date of birth. 1966/1967 versus 1976/1977.

I was cooperative and spoke when spoken too other then when I saw the black female at the back of the crowd and told the officers watching me that she was the victim. After what seemed like forever the Paramedics took him away on a gurney. I was questioned a little more and taken down to the street. The cops were interviewing the black female and she was pretty upset. They made me hang out in the hotel lobby for 5 minutes or so since there was no other exit on the west side of the hotel while they moved her somewhere else.

I sat cuffed in the car for another eternity sweating to death and forced to listen some kind of easy listening pop music while the officer stood outside doing paperwork. I was informed that I was being arrested for Attempted Murder 2. I was removed from the car and a Paramedic gave me a once over and asked me some questions. No obvious damage or injuries, a couple minor cuts on my throat and behind my left ear and no visible bruising. They uncuffed 1 hand so I could sign the refusal of medical service forms. 1 and 2 man news crews started showing up and setting up to film me/ the cop cars/street scene/hotel. We finally left and got a block away when the officer was called back to the scene. I was removed from the car and had paper bags taped over my hands to preserve evidence. I was told at that time by a supervisor he felt I probably did the right thing and he was sorry I had to be taken to jail, part of the formality of an investigation.

I was processed , had my shoes and clothes taken, and stuck in a cell with a tyvek suit, a 2” thick mattress pad and a fleece blanket. I was unable to contact anyone from the jail due not being able to call mainland cell phones collect. I had a couple local co-workers phone numbers in my cell phone but didn’t think about it until after my phone was in property and unable to retrieve it look their numbers up. Around noon on the 25th I was taken to see a detective and gave a voluntary statement without an attorney present. The detective asked why I didn’t flee when confronted, I told him that I’d considered it, but A. I didn’t want the guy chasing the girl down again since it was clear he didn’t have a problem with assaulting her or me and B. I didn’t want to have a fight on the exterior staircase with a low railing (approximately 36“ high on a 3 story staircase). I’m a busted up carpenter with a bad back and a bad foot not a martial artist. Figured my odds were better stalling him in the hallway until the cops arrived. After the interview was over and the recorder was turned off I asked if the other guy was alive and stable, he told me he’d had surgery and was stable. The detective gave me some encouragement but said he had to forward the evidence to the prosecutor who’d make a decision that night or the following day at the latest.

Back to my cell for another 10 hours until the detective and a corrections officer came to my cell to tell me the prosecutor had declined the charges and determined I’d acted in self defense. The Detective said he felt I did the right thing and was glad I had intervened. I was out on the street in about 20 minutes after that, just slightly over 24 hours in custody. I’d had 1 meal consisting of a jelly sandwich ( no peanut butter) and water and 2 of chicken cup of ramen with a slice of wheat bread and water and had maybe gotten 3 or 4 hours of short naps with the lights on the entire time. I was escorted to an exterior door and left standing in my tyvek suit, barefoot with a plastic bag of the contents of my pockets minus my ZT350 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00GU0PSO2&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) at 10:30 at night.

When I returned to the hotel around 11PM I was informed I’d been kicked out and would be escorted to my room by their security officer to gather up my things. I asked about a quick shower and was told that I wouldn’t be allowed too, I just needed to vacate the premises. After talking to the security officer in the lobby and on the way up to the room he was pretty sympathetic and told me to take my time packing up, no need to rush. The hotel had replaced about a 10’ long chunk of carpet in front of rooms #330/#327. After a few minutes he said if I wanted a quick shower to feel free, he’d be in the hallway. After I was showered and packed up he said he was sorry but that the hotel would be formally trespassing me when I returned to square up on my bill the following day and he’d prefer to take my picture now rather then in the lobby in front of everyone tomorrow. I took off my hat and smiled for the picture. I was able to check into another hotel at midnight and didn’t sleep well.

When I returned the following day after work to pay up and get my receipts I spoke with the manager who explained they’d refunded a couple days worth of parking and hotel fees. She asked how I got involved and I gave her the abbreviated version, she was unaware I was the one who called 911 repeatedly. I asked about the trespassing order since it would effect where my company would be able to place people in the future if I was banned from their chain. She said she’d make sure I wasn’t trespassed and was apologetic about the incident and me being kicked out due to corporate policy etc.

On Friday the 27th I contacted the Detective about getting my orthotic inserts out of my boots and my Galco instructors belt (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0048GWRG2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0048GWRG2&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) before I left Honolulu that evening and was able to meet him at the station and was escorted to the property room where he got my boots and belt for me. I asked if the other guy was facing any charges and he said the female had been interviewed and based on her statements he’d be facing charges. I asked if he was still hospitalized and was told he’d be there for another week.


http://khon2.com/2015/03/24/police-make-arrest-in-waikiki-stabbing/

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/28607988/38-year-old-man-stabbed-in-fight-at-waikiki-resort

[breakingtime91]

thanks for sharing ll. Fixed blades have been a no go for me for awhile (concealment issues) and I have been looking at this exact knife for awhile now...

[voodoo_man]

Good that he was not charged.

If this happened locally he may have been...

Also this is more of a conscious decision to use a folder not a reflexive response action.

[GJM]

Strikes me as a great example of "not your fight," and really bad things can happen when you intercede in an ambiguous situation, rather than be a good witness.

[Range1]

Gotta agree with voodoo_man and GJM. I suspect here he would have been charged and prosecuted. Also seems like a prime situation for being a good witness not a participant. That being said however, it is an excellent account of what was going through his mind during the fight, expecting a reaction to the cuts and being surprised when there was no apparent reaction. Interesting that he kept presence of mind enough to change tactics or target when he thought his previous strikes were ineffective. Glad it all worked out for him.

[voodoo_man]

Just some more thoughts...


When implementing a blade, you need to have targets and points of contact you are trying to reach at all times. This was missing here. He was hitting timers but not good timers and he was missing switches entirely. This is a huge training issue. If you are going to pulling a blade out you should do so with intent and purpose.

The interaction itself - be a good witness until the moment you reasonably believe there is the appearance of SBI and/or live threatening violence. "Violent felony" concept of interdiction is usually a good basis to use. People have fights all the time and that doesnt mean they will die from it, and it doesnt mean you should interject yourself into a situation that automatically means you need to go hands on.

Furthermore, the first thing that should have happened is a cellphone being taken out and the whole thing being video recorded. Witness or not (sometimes the complaining witness/victim run away) you have evidence why you made contact if you have to.

When you do make contact and decide to take action, go big.

[Irelander]

Thanks for posting that story. Very interesting and thought provoking. I tend to agree with GJM but you never know until your in it.

*glad NWRed is out of danger, out of jail, and won the fight.

[JV_]

It's interesting to watch incident videos, like the thug beating up on a big bus driver (who won in the end):
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/video-man-attacks-pulls-knife-on-bus-driver-driver-pins-alleged-assailant-until-police-arrive
and many people seemed surprised that no one stepped in to help the bus driver.

And here we have an incident where someone does step in to help out, and we're back to the "it's not my fight". On the other hand, it's a domestic incident, and if she turned on the helper, he'd still be in jail.

I don't look forward to living in a society where everyone stands around and watches bad things happen.

[GJM]

For me, the issue is ambiguity. I am all about helping in clear cut situations, but my personal decision is not to get involved where you are unsure.

For all I know, that interaction is that couple's idea of foreplay, and the first clue would be when the woman shoots you in the back of the head.

[LittleLebowski]

Just some more thoughts...


When implementing a blade, you need to have targets and points of contact you are trying to reach at all times. This was missing here. He was hitting timers but not good timers and he was missing switches entirely. This is a huge training issue. If you are going to pulling a blade out you should do so with intent and purpose.

The interaction itself - be a good witness until the moment you reasonably believe there is the appearance of SBI and/or live threatening violence. "Violent felony" concept of interdiction is usually a good basis to use. People have fights all the time and that doesnt mean they will die from it, and it doesnt mean you should interject yourself into a situation that automatically means you need to go hands on.

Furthermore, the first thing that should have happened is a cellphone being taken out and the whole thing being video recorded. Witness or not (sometimes the complaining witness/victim run away) you have evidence why you made contact if you have to.

When you do make contact and decide to take action, go big.

I think you should try to get this guy some knife training, just saying.

[LittleLebowski]

It's interesting to watch incident videos, like the thug beating up on a big bus driver (who won in the end):
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/video-man-attacks-pulls-knife-on-bus-driver-driver-pins-alleged-assailant-until-police-arrive
and many people seemed surprised that no one stepped in to help the bus driver.

And here we have an incident where someone does step in to help out, and we're back to the "it's not my fight". On the other hand, it's a domestic incident, and if she turned on the helper, he'd still be in jail.

I don't look forward to living in a society where everyone stands around and watches bad things happen.

Like button firmly mashed.

[breakingtime91]

I'm not okay with a guy beating up a woman or multiple people beating up on one person. With that said I would dial 911, scope out the situation, and then if it continued to escalate, get involved. I would like to say I wouldn't do that and it would be alright for me to just stand by but that is not who I am, so for better or for worst I would somehow get involved.

[RJ]

For me, the issue is ambiguity. I am all about helping in clear cut situations, but my personal decision is not to get involved where you are unsure.

For all I know, that interaction is that couple's idea of foreplay, and the first clue would be when the woman shoots you in the back of the head.

^^^ This.

I'm very glad the OP is ok and it sounds like the right thing happened.

Having said that, for me, and me only, with 0 knowledge other than what I just read in Andrew Branca's "The Law of Self Defense", I would not have intervened outside of calling 911.

The persons being threatened were not me, nor my wife, nor my children, nor someone I am 100% certain would not later flip and claim I acted using deadly force between them and a 'minor disagreement with my boyfriend'.

But yes, glad this guy is ok.

[TCinVA]

I have to wonder if OC spray would have made a difference here.

I'm all for stabbing somebody if you need to do it, but if I can avoid the use of lethal force I'm all for that, too.

Also...don't think I would have been that involved in the goings on. Especially not after the dude had already assaulted me once.

[GardoneVT]

For me, the issue is ambiguity. I am all about helping in clear cut situations, but my personal decision is not to get involved where you are unsure.

For all I know, that interaction is that couple's idea of foreplay, and the first clue would be when the woman shoots you in the back of the head.

Agreed.

Some thoughts to offer.
Two months back I went out with a friend to a downtown, South Dakota bar. I realize the terms seem oxymoronic but hear me out.

We play a round of pool and I notice a fit looking girl at the edge of the tables . Being that I was a single dude, I executed a tactical withdrawal from my table and chatted her up. Turned out she was a local college student and avid kickboxer.

Once my Air Force history came up she challenged me to spar, right there on the spot. Objectively, I don't have a problem with a good spar. However....I declined because to uninvolved witnesses it would have looked for all the world like a muscular black dude was trying to beat up a 20 something white girl in a main avenue bar.

The girl didn't get it. She kept reaching and jabbing, and I kept dodging . Eventually my pal got her attention and we both walked.

Had I been a little more drunk ,that story could have ended a lot more tragically for all involved. Any Good Samaritan who barged in thinking I was assaulting my spouse would have found out the hard way it was nothing of the sort afterward. I,on the flip side, wouldn't have had the luxury of explaining myself to a random stranger assaulting me either.

If I see a girl being savagely beaten on the side of the road, I'll call 911 and offer a prayer to the unfortunate beat officers tasked to sort it out. Even if a woman yells "Help" or "he's raping me".... It doesn't mean that's actually happening. Women are people, and people sometimes lie.

[Doug]

My comment/question is deadly force is deadly force. Assuming a fist fight is on ....

If he had pulled a gun out and shot him, guy lives, would the legal outcome have been the same?

What if he hit him in the head with a baton type/butt of a kubotan weapon?

Now, if he sprayed him with a spitfire? (assume effective)

Knife seems to be a kind of "deadly" that juries would frown on harshly unless it was so clear cut. Same with the gun.

Any defense lawyers, cops or others thoughts.


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[TCinVA]

I'm not a cop or a defense lawyer...but from the description provided the good Samaritan got lucky in the response from the police and prosecutor. From the sound of things they could have easily jammed him up.

[Eyesquared]

I'm not a cop or a defense lawyer...but from the description provided the good Samaritan got lucky in the response from the police and prosecutor. From the sound of things they could have easily jammed him up.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but he said he's a "busted up carpenter with a bad back and a bad foot" so he had some disparity of force going on. I think maybe the legal situation would have turned out somewhat worse if he was a young, fit guy.

[breakingtime91]

Agreed.

Some thoughts to offer.
Two months back I went out with a friend to a downtown, South Dakota bar. I realize the terms seem oxymoronic but hear me out.

We play a round of pool and I notice a fit looking girl at the edge of the tables . Being that I was a single dude, I executed a tactical withdrawal from my table and chatted her up. Turned out she was a local college student and avid kickboxer.

Once my Air Force history came up she challenged me to spar, right there on the spot. Objectively, I don't have a problem with a good spar. However....I declined because to uninvolved witnesses it would have looked for all the world like a muscular black dude was trying to beat up a 20 something white girl in a main avenue bar.

The girl didn't get it. She kept reaching and jabbing, and I kept dodging . Eventually my pal got her attention and we both walked.

Had I been a little more drunk ,that story could have ended a lot more tragically for all involved. Any Good Samaritan who barged in thinking I was assaulting my spouse would have found out the hard way it was nothing of the sort afterward. I,on the flip side, wouldn't have had the luxury of explaining myself to a random stranger assaulting me either.

If I see a girl being savagely beaten on the side of the road, I'll call 911 and offer a prayer to the unfortunate beat officers tasked to sort it out. Even if a woman yells "Help" or "he's raping me".... It doesn't mean that's actually happening. Women are people, and people sometimes lie.

So your cool with letting someone get savagely beat?

[GardoneVT]

So your cool with letting someone get savagely beat?


You come out of the bar restroom to see I'm wrestling with a college girl on the ground.

You don't know me. You don't know about the loaded M9 under my jacket, or that the fight is totally consensual. All you see is a black, muscular dude fighting a white girl on the ground .

The real question is if you are "cool" with being killed over a misunderstanding?

Don't get it wrong; none of us here want to see a stranger suffer. The mistake comes in believing that the fact we are armed gives us the power to alter that.

I'm of the mind that the trained conflict resolution pros with the bodycams, qualified immunity and backup are better suited to solve such dilemmas. And even they get stuck in hairy misunderstandings.

[MichaelD]

Given the possible legal repercussions, unless I think someone is in immediate danger of being killed or severely injured I plan to stay out of a situation and call 911. I'm very glad the guy didn't get any charges pressed against him, but I don't think he made a wise choice in this situation.

[BehindBlueI's]

I would guess the "victim" of the stabbing was not cooperative, which would also play a role in the decision to charge. No cooperative and credible victim makes a lot of decisions at the prosecutor. Given his own involvement in a domestic (probably) and giving false information on identity, I'd just guess he wasn't either.

[eyemahm]

This seems like a textbook situation in which one should not get involved, based on everything I've heard and read from Branca, Ayoob, and members here.
Thanks for sharing this, because for me, the real "lesson" of this incident is preparing oneself for the challenge of ignoring the human instinct to aid a seemingly defenseless person suffering and crying for help.

As much as I would like to think I would behave "reasonably" in such a situation, if not mentally conditioned to ignore the instinct to render aid, I could see how it might be difficult to do so in practice.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but he said he's a "busted up carpenter with a bad back and a bad foot" so he had some disparity of force going on. I think maybe the legal situation would have turned out somewhat worse if he was a young, fit guy.

This likely goes toward disparity of force, but I doubt it would hold in a lot of places given the situation.

I'm betting the attacker has history/priors, and the woman's statement had much more to do with the outcome.


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[JohnO]

Personally I don't like to see a woman being abused. But I really think I would have stayed out of it. It had all the telltale signs of a domestic situation that could have gone sideways and the Good Samaritan could have had three attackers. Additionally I see the guy deploying a knife as unwarranted at the time. If there were disparity of force issues then he should have minded his own business and stayed out of it and just called for help.

I have often wondered about a situation where one is involved in a defensive use of force far from home. Hawaii for most mainlanders would qualify as far. Usually I'm thinking in terms of someone carrying a firearm in a state with reciprocity and then forced to defend themself. Being subject to court appearances far from home sounds really cumbersome. However certainly better than taking a dirt nap. For this very reason I would be extra careful about interceding.

[Chance]

A good discussion (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14843-When-to-get-involved) of getting involved, from last year.

[TR675]

Given the possible legal repercussions, unless I think someone is in immediate danger of being killed or severely injured I plan to stay out of a situation and call 911. I'm very glad the guy didn't get any charges pressed against him, but I don't think he made a wise choice in this situation.

I think this is where the smart money is.

[Kukuforguns]

OP didn't report seeing any definitive strikes by the male against the female. The male was attempting to force the woman to stay in the hotel room. The woman voluntarily returned to the hotel room to get her things.

These observations tell me: (1) the woman was not in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death; (2) the woman did not believe her life is in imminent danger. Best course of action would have been to call 911 (which OP did) and observe the situation without inserting himself into the dispute until something changed (i.e., the male starts beating the woman).

I'm not saying what I would have done if I had been OP. I don't have enough exposure to violent confrontations to be confident I could reliably determine the woman was not in imminent danger of SBI/death. My pre-determined response to domestic disturbances (which this appeared to have been) is to start by not getting involved other than to call 911. Once the woman came back to the room voluntarily, my willingness to get involved would have plummeted. That behavior is not rational and I don't want to get involved in a violent confrontation where I don't understand anyone's motivations.

[SLG]

Even off duty cops are usually better off being a good witness and calling 911. Not intervening doesnt mean ignore whats happening. I would have bet money on him being prosecuted for using a knife. Most places would not see that as appropriate response to a minor sounding fistfight.

[Cookie Monster]

So your cool with letting someone get savagely beat?


As much as it makes me sad to say. "Yes."

Life is hard, mean, and cruel and often driven by our own choices. I gotta get back to my family and take care of them, even if I am physically ok but imprisoned or throwing stacks of money at a lawyer that is not taking care of them.

I went out of my way twice this weekend to winch folks cars out of ditches so I am not adverse to helping out but yea gotta be smart on picking them.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

Haven't I heard from some experienced LE folks that domestic disturbances are among the most dangerous calls an officer responds to? If the guys with bat belts, back-up, and cuffs think it's dangerous, how well are you going to fare with a raised voice and a knife that you may or may not be trained to use?

I think you can make a good argument one way or the other about opening the door to let the asshole know someone is actually paying attention and the cops are on their way. Once he took a punch, closed the door, and then decided to open it again to follow them, that's where it gets less defensible IMO.

[Hambo]

I think the guy with the knife used up his supply of luck in this incident. There is a lot to be learned from all the moments it could have gone horribly wrong for him in the hallway. Note in the news stories that the initial investigation was attempted murder, not a self-defense incident. A different story from the guy he stabbed, the woman, other witnesses, or maybe some video, and he might have been facing a lengthy prison sentence. Also note that he also chose to talk to detectives without an attorney.

[JV_]

Note in the news stories that the initial investigation was attempted murder, not a self-defense incident.

News stories get it wrong all. the. time.

I was the subject of a news investigation, with a couple of other people I know, and it was one of the most witch-hunt type of affairs I've ever seen.

[StraitR]

Good read, thanks for sharing. That's a tough situation. I believe he was trying to do what's right, but I also think he was fortunate to not end up in prison for few reasons.

1) He jumped into a domestic situation where he possessed no intimate knowledge of either party or the lead up. So regardless of how bad the scenario was, and no matter how noble his intentions were, he's lucky the female victim didn't side with the other guy for one reason or another.

2) He went from initiating verbal contact, to being assaulted and retreating to a place of safety, to making a conscience decision to leave that safety and put himself in a position to be reengaged. No mention of intervention do to fear of GBI of female victim. He just didn't want to see the lady pushed around, which is completely understandable, but then there's the escalation of force...

3) After being reengaged, he immediately responds with deadly force without even attempting to defend himself with a similar level of force. According to his story, he never once struck the male attacker prior to deploying a knife. Based on his recount of the event and the description of his internal monologue during the fight he seemed to be coping with the blows pretty well. So well that he was able to recall a "gem" from a Surefire magazine article on blade tactics during the attack, and yet never conveys fear of GBI for himself or the female victim.

I'm surprised he was able to articulate all that, especially without legal counsel, in a way that kept him out of prison. I have to think there was some criminal history on the part of the male aggressor because it surely doesn't seem that this description of what happened would clear him of all wrongdoings. Then again, maybe his public AAR was written for maximum peer approval, who knows, but that's what crossed my mind while reading it. Hopefully everyone involved learned a thing or two. The female victim might learn how to pick better male partners. The male attacker will hopefully learn that pushing around women is a good way to get stabbed in the neck. And with any luck, our Good Sam has learned to count his lucky stars. Either way, I'm really glad it worked out for him.

[TR675]

He is very lucky not to have been indicted.

He intervened, apparently unnecessarily, in a minor altercation, was assaulted, and responded to the assault with deadly force. It does not appear he had a reasonable fear that either he or the lady were in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury; if he was afraid of those things he doesn't mention it explicitly (that I saw).

I appreciate his good intentions and applaud his desire to stick up for someone weak being abused by someone strong, but I would point out that middle class values and chivalry do not have much of a place in the lives of the domestically abused and abusers and trying to impose those values on them is likely to be both fruitless and dangerous, as already pointed out.

It is also good to always remember that the state generally has a monopoly on the legal use of force and jealously guards it, sometimes especially when the person who used the force in question is an otherwise upstanding citizen trying to do the right thing after getting involved in some shithead's reindeer games.

Cases like this leave me deeply ambivalent. I have not been in this type of situation and am glad of it. I like to think that I would stick up for someone weaker, but I know there are good sound reasons why that is a poor idea *most of the time.* I also have zero desire to take a bad beating. If I listened to the reasonable voice in my head I would feel bad and cowardly about not sticking up for the weaker party as I spent the rest of my life enjoying my family and not rotting in prison.

Life is full of tough choices and compromises.

[41magfan]

That guy should probably buy a few lottery tickets before his mojo runs out.

[John Hearne]

This is just speculation but, I bet the investigating cops looked at the criminal histories of the respective parties. If the guy with the knife had no history and the guy assaulting had any prior history, the investigators may make certain assumptions. IIRC, Ayoob or someone similar wrote that the most contentious self-defense cases are those where both parties have clean records.

[TCinVA]

This is just speculation but, I bet the investigating cops looked at the criminal histories of the respective parties. If the guy with the knife had no history and the guy assaulting had any prior history, the investigators may make certain assumptions. IIRC, Ayoob or someone similar wrote that the most contentious self-defense cases are those where both parties have clean records.

Seems like common sense.

[BehindBlueI's]

This is just speculation but, I bet the investigating cops looked at the criminal histories of the respective parties. If the guy with the knife had no history and the guy assaulting had any prior history, the investigators may make certain assumptions. IIRC, Ayoob or someone similar wrote that the most contentious self-defense cases are those where both parties have clean records.

Criminal histories play a role, but generally I'm looking for things that create credibility issues. You can have a robbery prior and be the victim of a robbery and still get it filed on. If you have a perjury, false reporting, etc. that hurts your credibility in court and if the case hinges mostly (or entirely) on your statements it will not be filed. I need more corroborating evidence if you're a proven liar in the eyes of the court.

I would still bet the guy who got cut wanted nothing to do with the investigation, did not provide a statement, and the fact he's an out of towner (apparently) and likely a PITA to serve subpoenas to get him back into court as the 'victim' all played heavily into the charging decision.

[eb07]

Luckily the woman cried victim and didn't stick up for her man and say you were the aggressor. That surely would have sucked, and has happened.

[lukejr985]

Seems like he jumped the gun big time, as others have said he responded to a simple fight with deadly force. I'm no expert but I think he's very lucky to not be sitting in jail right now, albeit a pretty jail in HI.

[BJXDS]

Very interesting example of how shit can go bad with the best of intentions, if not the best decisions. Someone mentioned the use of pepper spray, the more I hear stories like this the more I like it for option #1, if circumstances allow, although it's not guaranteed to immediately stop a threat, but the blade didn't either.

As far as using a knife or gun, the issue becomes the use of deadly force. Sounds like the guy lived, does it change anything if he bleeds out?

As a side note, I believe most people have false expectations in reference to a knife or gun for that matter, and the ability to quickly stop a threat.

[Drang]

Seems like he jumped the gun big time, as others have said he responded to a simple fight with deadly force.

The way I read it, he responded to the fight by calling 911.
He responded to being assaulted with deadly force.
Maybe telling the guy "back off, the cops are on the way" wasn't wise, maybe (probably even) he should have anticipated being assaulted when he drew attention to himself, but it's not like he dove into the FUT slashing away.

I'm kind of surprised there aren't more people being assaulted as they record stupid people doing stupid things.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

[lukejr985]

The way I read it, he responded to the fight by calling 911.
He responded to being assaulted with deadly force.
Maybe telling the guy "back off, the cops are on the way" wasn't wise, maybe (probably even) he should have anticipated being assaulted when he drew attention to himself, but it's not like he dove into the FUT slashing away.

I'm kind of surprised there aren't more people being assaulted as they record stupid people doing stupid things.

Good point, I think he could have initially responded through the door even, with more verbal jousting of sorts

[Drang]

This may be correct, I also note that he did say he made some mistakes I imagine he did quite a bit of hot washing while sitting in that cell.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

The way I read it, he responded to the fight by calling 911.
He responded to being assaulted with deadly force.


After the initial assault, our would-be good samaritan was able to collect his knocked off glasses, close his door, put clothes and shoes on, and make another call to 911, before reinserting himself in a risky and already-escalated situation. That makes it harder to claim legal self-defense in a number of places, not to mention being detrimental in defending against a civil suit. Duty to retreat is still a thing in a lot of state codes.

[breakingtime91]

You come out of the bar restroom to see I'm wrestling with a college girl on the ground.

You don't know me. You don't know about the loaded M9 under my jacket, or that the fight is totally consensual. All you see is a black, muscular dude fighting a white girl on the ground .

The real question is if you are "cool" with being killed over a misunderstanding?

Don't get it wrong; none of us here want to see a stranger suffer. The mistake comes in believing that the fact we are armed gives us the power to alter that.

I'm of the mind that the trained conflict resolution pros with the bodycams, qualified immunity and backup are better suited to solve such dilemmas. And even they get stuck in hairy misunderstandings.

I wasn't commenting on your bar fight scenario. You stated "If I see a girl being savagely beaten on the side of the road, I'll call 911 and offer a prayer to the unfortunate beat officers tasked to sort it out. Even if a woman yells "Help" or "he's raping me".... It doesn't mean that's actually happening. Women are people, and people sometimes lie." Completely different scenarios from you wresting in a bar...Also why do you always bring race into it? That's the last thing that goes through my mind when assessing a situation. I am obviously the minority of this but I would stop to help a women getting beat on the side of the road. Does that mean I would instantly assault the man? No, could be an undercover cop in a scuffle over his weapon, but my job at that point is to assess and figure out if I am watching a rough arrest or possibly a disgruntled boyfriend about to beat his girl friend to death. I am not a novice when it comes to violence, I understand that situation can go several ways. I just know that if it was my wife getting beat on the side of a road and I wasn't there to help, I hope someone would.


With that I will bow out because my interfering and saying "I would" doesn't help this discussion.

[StraitR]

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

Excellent article. I think I'll take some time and read the other commentary pieces. Thanks Chuck.

[FOG]

I carry a knife all the time, but I'd probably just fight straight up unless it got real bad. Call me dumb, old-fashioned, whatever but I'd risk a butt kicking if it meant keeping a woman from being beat. I may be worse for wear afterwards but I'd still sleep well knowing I did the right thing (according to my own beliefs).

Of course, that's what I hope I would do, impossible to say what would really happen in the heat of the moment.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[Lester Polfus]

This guy needs to shut his pie hole and stop talking about this on the internet. His legal jeopardy, criminal and civil isn't over.

I'm agog that this guy walked. Like a bunch of people have already said, I'm guessing the stabee was a shitbird who didn't cooperate.

[Joe in PNG]

I would say that calling the cops and being a good witness is pretty far from standing by and doing nothing.
As for the conscience thing, I've been there. I once saw an airplane crash, and drove over to help. I really wanted to help, but there was not one single thing I could do but either get in the way, or become another casualty, by charging into a burning house without firefighting gear. The best thing I could do was leave.

[HCountyGuy]

The knife-wielder certainly did have events conspire in his favor.

Reading responses here, I feel I've become far more knowledgeable on intervening in such situations. I can definitely say I'm less inclined to play the "White Knight" in such situations. Or at least, I hope I would be more resistant to place myself in the middle of such an ambiguous altercation.

I do pose one question though, which may or may not alter some stances:

What about when the perceived victim is screaming/begging for help? Perhaps they've even noticed you observing and are directing their pleas to you.

For the sake of consistency, same/similar scenario to the original posted.

[SLG]

Unless I have my children with me and it is unsafe for them, I will always intervene. What that means is very situation specific, and USUALLY involves the good witness/911 call. If it clearly rises to the level of me using some kind of force (starting at, for this discussion, Officer Presence), then so be it. My decision to do more than call 911 is based on 18 years of law enforcement experience, not the 20 something years that preceded that experience. You may have more or less relevant experience to draw on in making that decision, and will have to decide for yourself what is and is not appropriate and legal.

[uechibear]

Very interesting example of how shit can go bad with the best of intentions, if not the best decisions. Someone mentioned the use of pepper spray, the more I hear stories like this the more I like it for option #1, if circumstances allow, although it's not guaranteed to immediately stop a threat, but the blade didn't either...

Could someone with pepper spray experience comment on using it in an enclosed space like in this hotel hallway? Would the person spraying it also be exposed and affected in most cases?

[TCinVA]

Could someone with pepper spray experience comment on using it in an enclosed space like in this hotel hallway? Would the person spraying it also be exposed and affected in most cases?

I'm not an expert on OC, but from playing with it I'll say that with the stuff I've played with whatever space you use it in will be quite peppery for a bit. It's so pungent that you'll definitely notice its presence but probably not find it significantly debilitating unless things go pear shaped.

Of course, things often go pear shaped in fights....

My plan for OC is to use it at the maximum possible distance and then to move.

Best thing you can do, IMO, is buy some to play with. Or attend one of Chuck's seminars on OC spray.

[41magfan]

Any discussion about "hardware" is not addressing the problematic issue in this case which is "software" related. This act of intervention was flawed both tactically and legally and no amount of gear on a Batman belt might have likely made a significant difference or lessened the exposure to a legal consequence.

If one didn't know anything about what you can or can't do legally or tactically, a glaring hint indicating what was really going on here presented itself when that gal made the statement .... "all I want is my stuff". The kind of victims you need to be rescuing aren't concerned with "their stuff" ...... that's a C L U E so recognize it for what it is and act on it by minding your own business.

As noted in another thread, if you haven't read Andrew's Branca's book, do so and take the material to heart.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/buy-now/

[voodoo_man]

Could someone with pepper spray experience comment on using it in an enclosed space like in this hotel hallway? Would the person spraying it also be exposed and affected in most cases?

Ive sprayed people in confined and enclosed places.

It sucks for everyone, especially if you have to make physical contact.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Some comments.

1. There is the endless whether you should intervene question. Be safe vs. you are crappy person if you don't. Be cold-blood and rational for the best outcome for you and yours vs. doing 'the right thing' or you 'won't be able to live with yourself'. I note at the NTI we ran a woman being assaulted in a dark garage and you were a bystander. It was 50/50 on intervention vs. being a good witness. I've also found in a research project that trained gun folk, folks with permits but no significant training and students (as control) were very reluctant to go beyond calling the law in an asault. Only a small percentage would use a firearm to intervention (as a threat) or use it.

2. The knife fight. God knows I am no expert on this but the two courses I took emphasized knife usage to disengage and using the knife to disable arms or legs as compared to multiple stabbings or some technique recommended by Surefire.

I also know from a case I was a witness in, that a magic knife hit can kill you dead right there. An old guy stuck a young stud in the chest with a paring knife and he just died. So was lethal force justified in this? Seem shaky to my non expert view.

I was also interested in the knife. Looks nasty. Lots of folks carry knives. I'm partial to Delicas. However, at various venues, I see tactical 'folk' take out some huge black knife - tanto, saw tooth, thick and mean. Given my other interests, if you are going on trial - that evil knife is going to be waved in the jury's face. Stabbing the guy repeatedly with that? Might it look bad? Never researched it but it is a thought from the gun appearance research. Does the mini-sword get you that much vs. something more mundane?

So you shot him how many times? That certainly comes up vs. you took your Zero Tolerance 0350BW Folder G10 Knife with Blackwash SpeedSafe and stabbed him how many times? Zero Tolerance - does that mean you are prone to go off the handle?

As others said, there might have been something else in not charging the guy but these are some thoughts.

[StraitR]

The female victim returning for possessions is just one more indicator to the absence of a perceived GBI threat, let alone death. Put another way, she was not so battered and fearful for her life that she wasn't willing to come back for round 2 in exchange for her "stuff". I also believe that had the male aggressor perished from the knife wounds, this could have easily gone another way. Again, based on only the information in this AAR, I think the Good Sam is extremely fortunate to be waking up a free man right now. I also think he knows that.

If we were to replace the knife with OC and the term "stabbed" with "sprayed" in this AAR, I don't think many here would have even finished reading it. Had OC been used, it's likely this thread wouldn't even exist, let alone be getting its 60th comment. This tells me that OC would have been a much more appropriate response, because we're only talking about it due to the use of a knife. Not judging Good Sam, as he did what he felt he had to do, and beneficial learning has occurred.

In the end, I'd much rather be the main character in a "Cool story, bro" thread than an event that warrants a multipage online discussion or a "Bag of Dicks" care package from Edwin.

[Gary1911A1]

After the initial assault, our would-be good samaritan was able to collect his knocked off glasses, close his door, put clothes and shoes on, and make another call to 911, before reinserting himself in a risky and already-escalated situation. That makes it harder to claim legal self-defense in a number of places, not to mention being detrimental in defending against a civil suit. Duty to retreat is still a thing in a lot of state codes.

Agree.

[41magfan]

With no intent of derailing this thread;

I've carried a knife everyday since I was about 10 years old. If necessary and appropriate, I would certainly use it to defend myself. But, I have absolutely no illusions about the usefulness and appropriateness of using an edged weapon with all the other options I have available.

In our culture, 99.99999999999% of the people with any real experience fighting with knives are THUGS - most of which have sported the wardrobe of an "Inmate" or "Prisoner" at some point in their lives. There's also a CLUE in that paradigm for those that have eyes to see.

[StraitR]

Ive sprayed people in confined and enclosed places.

It sucks for everyone, especially if you have to make physical contact.

Still seems a good bit better than...

Ive stabbed people in confined and enclosed places.

It sucks for everyone, especially if you have to make physical contact.

:D

[voodoo_man]

Still seems a good bit better than...

Ive stabbed people in confined and enclosed places.

It sucks for everyone, especially if you have to make physical contact.

:D

I mean...i dont want to brag...

[tanner]

OC spray would have made it harder for whoever got sprayed to kick anyone else's ass. It sucks, but it is no magic formula which stops fights. Also, it is wise to let that stuff percolate a bit before going hands on. I would recommend a good 60 seconds or so if you can.

However, it also fits the bill for a felonious assault if used improperly so it isn't a freebie either.

[PNWTO]

Given the facts presented, I wouldn't have intervened in some drunk drama.

Call the front desk. If no one shows proceed to call the badges.

This guy inserted himself into the situation numerous times; foolish IMO.

The fact that he had the ability to go back into his room and sort his shit out is very telling.

[BehindBlueI's]

I hate using OC...but you can spray it out a door and then close the door. Then stay there. Fighting someone you sprayed is suck-tastic. Fighting in an enclosed area that's been sprayed is suck-tastic. Serving a search warrant in a house that SWAT filled to the rafters with OC is...what's worse than suck-tastic? It's that.

[HCountyGuy]

As a small aside, I wonder where their security guard who was charged with escorting the individual off the premises was during the entirety of the initial conflict...

[GardoneVT]

As a small aside, I wonder where their security guard who was charged with escorting the individual off the premises was during the entirety of the initial conflict...

Probably out of sight on a phone to 911.

Which is what the "Samaritan" should have been doing.

[fixer]

So assuming this guy's story is 100% accurate...

at what point is it considered a lethal force situation when an attacker is wailing on you with fists?

[SLG]

So assuming this guy's story is 100% accurate...

at what point is it considered a lethal force situation when an attacker is wailing on you with fists?

Not a lawyer.

When you can articulate that you are in actual danger of dying, or sustaining serious physical injury. Not before.

[SteveB]

My first rule is to avoid giving someone else control over me. This guy never should have opened his door; calling the front desk and 911 would have been a reasonable and prudent response to the incident as described; especially since he was, admittedly, untrained. Let’s count the ways this could have gone badly for our hero (all examples of allowing another entity, be it an assailant or the state, control over our physical safety or freedom):
• GG intervenes, whips out his blade while taking a few punches and loses the blade (because untrained).
• GG intervenes, whips out his blade while taking a few punches, BG whips out his blade and it gets bloody.
• GG intervenes, whips out his blade while taking a few punches, BG pulls his pistol from under his shirt and GG has brought a knife to a gunfight.
• GG intervenes and another BG comes out of the hotel room and now it’s 2 (or more) on 1.
• GG intervenes, stabs the BG, and the BG’s GF sticks a knife in GG’s kidney.
• GG intervenes, is lucky tactically but unlucky criminally and civilly: He survives the encounter, but is prosecuted for attempted murder and sued by the BG, BG’s family, etc.
Opening the door in this example allowed others to possibly get control over GG’s life and liberty. He was very lucky (certainly wasn’t skill) to escape the encounter he initiated with minor injuries. This outcome required a lot of factors to be in place that the GG had no control over; his opponent’s fighting skillset and level of intoxication, the fact that the BG wasn’t armed, the fact that there were no other assailants. GG was very lucky criminally; this very easily could have ended up with him in prison, or a free man bankrupted by the cost of a legal defense. His civil liability seems unknown, but what if the BG wasn’t so bad (no or minor criminal record) just a mean drunk? What if he is permanently disabled from the knife wounds? GG could still lose his ass in a lawsuit, and for what? Probably not a good idea to stick a knife in somebody unless you are facing an immediate and unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury. Everyone has their own go/no go line. I submit that it’s best to figure out where that line is before you are faced with this kind of decision.

[Kukuforguns]

So assuming this guy's story is 100% accurate...

at what point is it considered a lethal force situation when an attacker is wailing on you with fists?

This is going to vary slightly based on jurisdiction (e.g., TX versus MA), the location of the incident within a jurisdiction (e.g., in your home versus at a public location), which prosecutor reviews your file, etc.

Generally, you can use lethal force when you reasonably believe that you are facing imminent great bodily injury or death and where the use of lethal force was reasonable to end the threat of great bodily injury or death. See here (https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1300/1304.html) for a model jury instruction on self defense.

[Cookie Monster]

I keep seeing this thread and wonder if the guy or the guy's company paid for a nicer hotel or a hotel that is placed so or deals with mostly business travelers who want no drama.

I used to hotel up 100 days a year and the only drama was at shady places and I learned it was easier to either drive further or sleep in the truck. How many stars does that hotel have? 2!?! Where is the nearest 3 star? F policy that is where we are going....

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Don't assume TX will give you a parade for some scenario. Not a lawyer, but I do not think the level of what is lethal force used against you varies by location. The issue at home was the duty to retreat.

https://www.texasfirearmscoalition.com/index.php/editorials/41-the-truth-about-the-texas-castle-doctrine

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't assume TX will give you a parade for some scenario. Not a lawyer, but I do not think the level of what is lethal force used against you varies by location. The issue at home was the duty to retreat.

https://www.texasfirearmscoalition.com/index.php/editorials/41-the-truth-about-the-texas-castle-doctrine

Lethal force likely doesn't, intervening in various crimes will, though.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

The bold part will get you hemmed up pretty quick in most states.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yep, but that's not this knife fight in the hotel. I don't (not a lawyer) think TX statutes give you a pass if the incident went bad because TX has a differential level of lethal force by location. Even so, defending property with lethal force better be your own. There was the guy who shot the burglars breaking into his neighbor's house. It was recorded and the dispatcher told him to stay out of it and he babbled about shooting the guys. Some folks think that the property statutes saved his butt but it was really a self-defense claim backed up by a witness.

Our OP guy was quite lucky. We;ve already discussed whether his response was proportionate.

[Clay]

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but this is a perfect incident to paint someone orange with pepper spray, and maybe take the woman into your room and lock the door if possible. I'm a big fan of really filling the gap between "hey, stop!" and deadly force. These are the types of encounters than regular civilians find themselves in all the time. I've been in these situations several times, and pepper spray works well when used quickly and decisively.

[GardoneVT]

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but this is a perfect incident to paint someone orange with pepper spray, and maybe take the woman into your room and lock the door if possible. I'm a big fan of really filling the gap between "hey, stop!" and deadly force. These are the types of encounters than regular civilians find themselves in all the time. I've been in these situations several times, and pepper spray works well when used quickly and decisively.
Careful. Leave enough in the canister for the damsel if she attacks you for having separated her from the DV perpetrator.

I can't stress this enough guys.As a dude who saw domestic abuse up close and personal as a kid,I'll do my part by phoning 911 and recording suspect and victim descriptions.

Fighting the guy in public might stop him temporarily. Collecting enough proof as a credible witness to make a case stick will stop him a lot longer, and could put the victim in touch with professional counseling necessary to fix the far deeper mental traumas DV causes.

[Clay]

Absolutely. My CCW instructor years ago was a long-time police officer, and he liked to tell a story about a DV altercation at a gas station in which, all said and done, he ended up with the woman on his back hitting him with the gas pump handle, screaming "leave my man alone!". He said in hindsight he would've either circled the block a few times and gave them time to leave, or hosed them both down with OC.

[11B10]

Excellent article. I think I'll take some time and read the other commentary pieces. Thanks Chuck.



This ^^^^ thanks, Mr. Haggard.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Being a psychologist, we are trained how to measure perceptual events. So my answer is that there is not a mathematical continuum that gives you are clear decision point. It is judgment call on your perceived view of the damage being done to you. Do you perceive that you are suffering grievous bodily harm?

The nuance is that others will have to see if their evaluations are in line with yours. Folks have died from a single blow to the head with a fist. Can you make the case that you feared that such that your perception is in line with the local laws.

If you see a teenager punch another in the head, can you just shoot teenager #1 to stop a second blow? In San Antonio, we had one teen punch another who dropped dead.

You have to be able to articulate the threat to yourself. Thus, I opine there is no correct answer as each situation is a web of what might be, probabilities, differential capacities, etc.

I have been wailed upon repeatedly. The attacker was four and annoyed that we were not buying a My Little Pony.

The first TX CHL case hinged on such issues. I think what I am saying is that there is no 'point' with mathematical precision.

As far as domestic intervention - remember the video Surviving Edged Weapons? Two officers break up a fight and then the woman compliant takes a cleaver to the head of one of the officers who was saving her.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's an article discussing the perception problem of appropriate force:

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/january-2016-front-page/435-defending-against-physical-attack

[DiscipulusArmorum]

I meant to post this a few days ago when the discussion was more active, but since this is still going and we're discussing more legal stuff now:


§703-304 Use of force in self-protection.

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.

(3) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.

(4) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

(a) To resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

(b) To resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

(i) The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest; or

(ii) The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

(5) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:

(a) The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(i) The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be [...]

Hawaii Revised Statutes (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm)

[Kukuforguns]

I meant to post this a few days ago when the discussion was more active, but since this is still going and we're discussing more legal stuff now:
You should probably consider Hawaii's law regarding defense of others (703-305) in conjunction with its law regarding self defense:

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-310, the use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(a) Under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(b) The actor believes that the actor's intervention is necessary for the protection of the other person.
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1):
(a) When the actor would be obliged under section 703-304 to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing, or to comply with a demand before using force in self- protection, the actor is not obliged to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless the actor knows that the actor can thereby secure the complete safety of such other person; and
(b) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be obliged under section 703-304 to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand if the person knew that the person could obtain complete safety by so doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause the person to do so before using force in the person's protection if the actor knows that the actor can obtain the other's complete safety in that way; and
(c) Neither the actor nor the person whom the actor seeks to protect is obliged to retreat when in the other's dwelling or place of work to any greater extent than in the actor's or the person's own. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; gen ch 1993]

[ssb]

That's ugly and I can't say I would have intervened.

He is ridiculously lucky that the female victim decided to continue to be a victim, instead of an uncooperative victim or worse yet, a victim who starts telling lies to the investigators/the DA's office. Things are not always as they seem, and the story told on scene often a) isn't going to be told again (because the victim refuses to cooperate) or b) changes.

I honestly do not see his articulation of why he began to use lethal force when he did. At the time he went to the knife, he'd been punched in the head once or twice. He gives a verbal "stop," but doesn't warn about the knife; he takes another punch and then he starts stabbing. He may be a "busted up carpenter," but if he's just standing there taking punches I don't see a level of articulation of imminent death/GBH I'd be comfortable with without additional information. I think it's likely the office I'm currently working for would have charged him with the attempt murder.

[HopetonBrown]

Yeah, screw that.

[HCountyGuy]

He gives a verbal "stop," but doesn't warn about the knife

I've never understood the concept of warning an aggressor "I have a <insert weapon here>!"

Some don't care, and some may be so inclined to fight you just to take that weapon away and use it on you. In my book (IANAL, all that jazz), the first indication any attacker should have of me possessing a weapon to fight back with should be getting struck with it, or perhaps having a barrel leveled at their chest if circumstances allow.

[voodoo_man]

re: verbal warnings and weapon identification.

Saying "stop" "do not move" etc are often times completely disregarded, especially by people who are prone and/or comfortable with violence.

The only time I have ever seen verbal warnings of impending violence work was when the person in question had a visible weapon in their hands and the person giving commands had a superior weapon (use your imagination) giving commands of "drop it or I'll...."

As for self-identification of weapons, why tell people what you have before you deploy it? That's stupid.

[LittleLebowski]

I think the guy did well and clearly needs training with knives (like I do). I'm glad he's OK legally. There will be more posted on this case sooner or later.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

You should probably consider Hawaii's law regarding defense of others (703-305) in conjunction with its law regarding self defense:

Wanted to post that as well but didn't want too much wall of text. Also, I think that it's less applicable despite the initial confrontation being about the girl. Would it be a better legal argument that he used deadly force to protect this girl in a somewhat ambiguous situation, or that it was for self-defense when the asshole turned attention to him?
.

[Kukuforguns]

Wanted to post that as well but didn't want too much wall of text. Also, I think that it's less applicable despite the initial confrontation being about the girl. Would it be a better legal argument that he used deadly force to protect this girl in a somewhat ambiguous situation, or that it was for self-defense when the asshole turned attention to him?
.
The defense of other statute is relevant to the Paladin's situation in that it, arguably, removes the statutory requirement (from the self defense statute) that he retreat. This means that the Paladin can argue he was justified in being out in the hall while telling Choir Boy to leave Virtuous Maiden alone. Given that Choir Boy's level of force against Virtuous Maiden was not likely to cause death/great bodily injury, Paladin's level of intercession (i.e., calling the police and advising Choir Boy the police have been called) was not excessive. Once Choir Boy attacked Paladin, Paladin still can argue he had no obligation to retreat since he was trying to defend Virtuous Maiden. Once Choir Boy attacked Paladin, it becomes a mixed self defense/defense of other situation. Moreover, it appears that Choir Boy increased his level of force once he assaulted Paladin by striking Paladin with fists (as opposed to pushes/grappling with Virtuous Maiden).

Up to this point, Paladin's actions have no whiff of illegality (lack of common sense is a different issue). He's a guy trying to do the right thing.

Paladin claimed he is a broken up carpenter and that Choir Boy was in the prime of his life. This would be a disparity of force situation. At this point, Paladin was entitled to use a reasonable amount of force to defend himself. Were multiple knife thrusts into the torso a reasonable amount of force? Ultimately, this can only be answered by a trier of fact. The prosecutor apparently decided not to prosecute Paladin. If I were a prosecutor, it's probably how I would have acted. On the other hand, I would not criticize a prosecutor who did decide to prosecute on the ground that the facts did not support prosecution.

[ssb]

I've never understood the concept of warning an aggressor "I have a <insert weapon here>!"

Some don't care, and some may be so inclined to fight you just to take that weapon away and use it on you. In my book (IANAL, all that jazz), the first indication any attacker should have of me possessing a weapon to fight back with should be getting struck with it, or perhaps having a barrel leveled at their chest if circumstances allow.

In retrospect I shouldn't have put that line where I put it. It implied that there was some sort of requirement of a warning in my state, and there is not.

voodoo_man covered my thoughts for "why warn" from a tactical sense in his reply to you.

[LittleLebowski]

I kinda want a ZT 350 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/) now, just saying :D

[11B10]

If you dig orange, I might know a guy with a new/unused ZT 0350OR (http://www.knifecenter.com/item/ZT0350OR/Zero-Tolerance-Model-0350OR-Orange-G10) that he's never going to use...



I ALWAYS "kinda, wanna," a ZT350! Did I mention that orange is my favorite (from my high school) color?

[45dotACP]

I kinda want a ZT 350 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/) now, just saying :D
I love mine. For a big(ish) pocket knife, it's really comfortable/easy to carry it everywhere...

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

I kinda want a ZT 350 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GU0PSO2/) now, just saying :D

I bought one... do it

[StraitR]

All this ZT talk lately has inspired me. Time to break out the 0561 that's been loitering in my safe.

[BillSWPA]

Glad the incident worked out without the original poster being charged.

These situations are tough. On the one hand, as a Christian, if I see someone who needs help and I am able to do so, and if I am close to 100% certain that I understand what is really happening,I have a tough time coming up with a moral basis for not doing so.

On the other hand, as a lawyer who is self-employed and has a family, it is all too easy to see how I might not fully understand the situation, as well as how badly a decision to intervene could affect not only me, but also my family, for quite some time to come. One needs to look no further than George Zimmerman to see the heavy price that can be paid for trying to do the right thing: he was kicked out of college, unable to find a job, 7 figures in debt, and his wife left him. When I teach the legal portion of a couple of local shooting classes, I always advise being a good witness and calling the police in 3rd party situations unless one is 100% sure of what is happening.

My wife and I have discussed these issues, and she is okay with my taking some risk to help a third party if it is 100% clear what is happening.

As some posted above, these incidents are probably one of the best reasons to carry OC on a regular basis. Using OC on the original aggressor in this situation might have stopped his actions, and would be far easier to explain than using a knife. If it failed to stop him, escalating to something else would be easier to explain. It would have been much more likely that the original poster could have spent the rest of the night in his hotel room rather than a jail cell. Granted, it would have had to be purchased locally since flying it into Hawaii would be problematic, and local laws might also create some obstacles to OC use.

[Law of Self Defense]

Classic example of getting a YUGE lucky break because the authorities chose to use their discretion to not indict, prosecute, and convict.

Had they cared to, prosecutors could have walked this to a guilty verdict without losing their breath, especially in Hawai'i.

All of that based on the initial narrative provided, of course (which was very detailed, thanks). A change in facts could drive a change in analysis.

Lots of good solid common sense in this thread, incidentally. Don't usually see much of that on internet forums. Notable. :-)

--Andrew

[Drang]

Classic example of getting a YUGE lucky break because the authorities chose to use their discretion to not indict, prosecute, and convict.

Had they cared to, prosecutors could have walked this to a guilty verdict without losing their breath, especially in Hawai'i.

All of that based on the initial narrative provided, of course (which was very detailed, thanks). A change in facts could drive a change in analysis.

Lots of good solid common sense in this thread, incidentally. Don't usually see much of that on internet forums. Notable. :-)

--Andrew
Told ya. :cool:

[Mr_White]

Classic example of getting a YUGE lucky break because the authorities chose to use their discretion to not indict, prosecute, and convict.

Had they cared to, prosecutors could have walked this to a guilty verdict without losing their breath, especially in Hawai'i.

All of that based on the initial narrative provided, of course (which was very detailed, thanks). A change in facts could drive a change in analysis.

Lots of good solid common sense in this thread, incidentally. Don't usually see much of that on internet forums. Notable. :-)

--Andrew

GREAT to see you here, Sir. Please stick around!

[Law of Self Defense]

GREAT to see you here, Sir. Please stick around!

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. :-)

--Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

[RockinU]

Yep, but that's not this knife fight in the hotel. I don't (not a lawyer) think TX statutes give you a pass if the incident went bad because TX has a differential level of lethal force by location. Even so, defending property with lethal force better be your own. There was the guy who shot the burglars breaking into his neighbor's house. It was recorded and the dispatcher told him to stay out of it and he babbled about shooting the guys. Some folks think that the property statutes saved his butt but it was really a self-defense claim backed up by a witness.

Our OP guy was quite lucky. We;ve already discussed whether his response was proportionate.

Not germane to this thread, but for the sake of accuracy there are circumstances in Texas where protecting the property of others is legal:

Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

[Law of Self Defense]

Many states has some provision for the protection of other people's personal property. Every such framework is fraught with legal peril.

Just look at all the conditions in Texas Penal Code 9.43.

First you have to meet the conditions of 9.41 or 9.42. I note that they're not shown here, which is perfectly reasonable. Still--have them memorized? No? Oops. Think you'd have them memorized at the time you'd have to decide? Maybe? Maybe not?

Second, look at how often the phrase "reasonably believes" appears in the statutory language of 9.43. Guess who decides whether your "belief" was "reasonable"? Yeah, the jury. Anybody who is eager to put perhaps decades of their life behind bars unnecessarily into the hands of a jury just hasn't thought the problem through. How hard do many of you work to evade jury duty? Who do you think is left to sit on a jury? NRA Life Members? Members of this forum? Folks with Jeff Coopers' collected works?

Not to mention the physical peril that you could die from the slash of a 50 cent box cutter because you decided to protect SOMEBODY ELSE'S piece of property. WHAT?!?!

There exist good reasons for sacrificing one's life. But it is (or should be) a pretty short list.

For myself, some third person's personal property does not appear on my "willing to die for that," nor even my "willing to spend 10-20 years in jail" list.

But that's just me. I've been in jails (visiting clients). Not eager to live there, for no good reason.

--Andrew

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Many states has some provision for the protection of other people's personal property. Every such framework is fraught with legal peril.

Just look at all the conditions in Texas Penal Code 9.43.

First you have to meet the conditions of 9.41 or 9.42. I note that they're not shown here, which is perfectly reasonable. Still--have them memorized? No? Oops. Think you'd have them memorized at the time you'd have to decide? Maybe? Maybe not?

Second, look at how often the phrase "reasonably believes" appears in the statutory language of 9.43. Guess who decides whether your "belief" was "reasonable"? Yeah, the jury. Anybody who is eager to put perhaps decades of their life behind bars unnecessarily into the hands of a jury just hasn't thought the problem through. How hard do many of you work to evade jury duty? Who do you think is left to sit on a jury? NRA Life Members? Members of this forum? Folks with Jeff Coopers' collected works?

Not to mention the physical peril that you could die from the slash of a 50 cent box cutter because you decided to protect SOMEBODY ELSE'S piece of property. WHAT?!?!

There exist good reasons for sacrificing one's life. But it is (or should be) a pretty short list.

For myself, some third person's personal property does not appear on my "willing to die for that," nor even my "willing to spend 10-20 years in jail" list.

But that's just me. I've been in jails (visiting clients). Not eager to live there, for no good reason.

--Andrew

The undersigned hereby adopts the foregoing argument and sets forth same as if stated herein.

[RockinU]

I despise a thief. That being said, there are very few of my own possessions that are precious enough to me that I would wish to endure the hardships associated with the use of deadly force, much less someone else's. Protecting myself and my family is paramount, things can almost always be replaced.

Sorry for the drift...

[GardoneVT]

The undersigned hereby adopts the foregoing argument and sets forth same as if stated herein.
Objection! Council is plagiarizing the witness!

:D

[Mitchell, Esq.]

No. I am adopting the argument of another attorney. That's perfectly acceptable and encouraged in practice to save the judge time.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

From my class on the subject:

Note on defense of a 3rd party
A person cannot claim defense of a third party, if the third party had a duty to retreat(3); however, if the third party cannot retreat, the person defending them has no obligation to do so.(4)
Be careful before stepping into someone else’s situation.
If it is not your monkeys, it is not your circus.

(3) State v. Rodriguez, 47 Conn. App. 91, 96, cert. denied, 243 Conn. 960 (1997).
(4) “… requiring a defendant acting in defense of another to retreat, without regard to the ability to retreat of the person defended, would be inconsistent with the general right to defense of others set forth in subsection [a]”); State v. Rodriguez, 47 Conn.App. 91, 96, 702 A.2d 906 (1997) (“[t]he court's instructions make it clear that a necessary predicate to the defendant's claim that he, as ... defender [of a third person], did not have a duty to retreat, is that [the third person] himself did not have a duty to retreat”), cert. denied, 243 Conn. 960, 705 A.2d 552 (1998)” State v. Ebron, 292 Conn. 656, 690, 975 A.2d 17, 39 (2009) overruled on other grounds by State v. Kitchens, 299 Conn. 447, 10 A.3d 942 (2011)

[Hambo]

I saw this story this morning. There's no third party but it's knife vs. fists.

http://www.cleveland.com/cleveland-heights/index.ssf/2016/03/cleveland_heights_man_accused_4.html#incart_river_ index

[Rex G]

It is VERY fortunate for Mr. G. Samaritan, in the original post, that the damsel-in-distress was still present when police arrived, to act as a complainant. Had she skedaddled, before police arrived, Mr. I. Misogynist may have loudly played the part of complainant, and may well have been believed.

IANAL, but have worn a big-city police badge for 33 years and 10 months, with all but seven months of that being assigned to night-shift patrol.