Finding Natural POA?

[HCountyGuy]

I was reading in another topic when I saw someone mention this, and decided to explore exactly what natural point of aim is.

While I've discerned what it is, I'm a bit perplexed on how to determine and troubleshoot one's natural POA. I've experimented with one method where you swivel turret-style back and forth until coming to a naturally comfortable position. I've wound up with numerous results from off left to off right and then hi's and lows.

I'm requesting insight and advice on ways to more effectively establish my natural POA.

[Carnifex]

What would be the point in this?

[HCountyGuy]

What would be the point in this?

From what I'm lead to believe, more instinctively accurate draws and easier/faster transitions between targets are some benefits to be gained.

[Gray222]

I used to do this all the time but now its just a natural stance for me so i dont have to bother with it.

Stand in front of your target, in a natural fighting stance.

Look at the target and draw your pistol.

Put your pistol sights on the target.

Get a good sight picture.

Close your eyes.

Sweep your gun right to left two or three times and settle on where you think the target should be.

Open your eyes.

Do not move your arms or your head to make the align.

Move your feet and you feet only.

Once you get the sights in the correct area, reeat the eyes closed sweep.

Do it until you can get the sights aligned on target each time.

Everytime you move your feet do this. Every time you come upto the firing line do this. Eventually itll be natural for you without doung it at all.


I do a modified version sometimes, where i draw my pistol close my eyes and extend it from high ready to the target. If i am on target cool, if not i shift my feet and do it again.

[SLG]

VDM summed it up. Make sure your hips are changing orientation when you move your feet. Its not where you point the gun that matters, but how you address the target from the ground up, so the whole body has to shift, not just the upper body.

[Gray222]

VDM summed it up. Make sure your hips are changing orientation when you move your feet. Its not where you point the gun that matters, but how you address the target from the ground up, so the whole body has to shift, not just the upper body.

Yeah that, forgot the "move at the hips" part.

Early morning typing...

[JHC]

I've never really been trained in it per se but have been exposed to the concept but that was mostly in the context of explaining shooting rifles and belt feds. A highly experienced trainer of security forces overseas tells me that when candidates go through their quals, the break down of their natural point of aim will really eat them up on the belt fed quals because as they traverse across targets that MG is going to drive back into where that natural point of aim is.

Because the pistol is the hand gun and the practical use of it may often call for movement and odd positions, is it far less of a factor? Versus fundamentals of grip and posture from the hips up for example?

Wondered about that. Good thread question.

[1slow]

The principles of what VDM stated can be applied to many firearms.

With prone rifle you get in position on target and relax, see if this shifts you off target. If it does move you off target, change your position slightly until you are back on target.
You are trying for a bone brace position, as much as possible, rather than one dependent on muscle tension. When you shoot see how the rifle tracks in recoil. If it tracks to the side adjust until it tracks straight up and down.
This is much easier with a tight shooting sling or with a rest or bipod. It can also be done in slung sitting.

As much as is possible I try to get so my position brings me back on target almost automatically. I find this helpful with any firearm.

I find that in non sling shooting positions i have to use more muscle tension but I still try to get a good a natural point of aim as I can.

What VDM suggests can be applied in principle to many positions and weapons although the details will vary.

[GRV]

Because the pistol is the hand gun and the practical use of it may often call for movement and odd positions, is it far less of a factor? Versus fundamentals of grip and posture from the hips up for example?


Ditto that question. Is this really applicable for practical pistol application for LE/civilian self-defense? Is the idea that you ingrain it so subconsciously that you'll automatically take that stance in a real encounter?

[SLG]

Natural point of aim applies to any firearm, but especially when you need follow up shots to go to the same place. Its importance for practical pistol can easily
Be masked because of the lower accuracy standards, but ask any steel challenge competitor if it matters and they will assure you it does. They may use a different term though. Uspsa is the same way, but there are fewer arrays where you stand and shoot out in the open at multiple targets, so it isnt able to be used as often.

The machine gun example is a really good one, and when learning to qual on machine guns, i found it very important.

[SLG]

Ditto that question. Is this really applicable for practical pistol application for LE/civilian self-defense? Is the idea that you ingrain it so subconsciously that you'll automatically take that stance in a real encounter?

Its not that you automatically take that stance, since the situation will dictate what you need to do, its that npa is your ideal shooting position, and when you dont have an ideal to fall back on, it can be much harder to elevate your skill in less than perfect conditions. Knowing what the book says doesnt mean you always follow the book, but if you dont know what the book says, you cant follow the book.

[rob_s]

Randy Cain teaches this heavily in his carbine and rifle courses, but I've never really applied it to pistol shooting. Interested to see how the discussion goes.

[GOTURBACK]

The way I practice POA is by obtaining a hard focus on my target ( 3-5 yards) then closing my eyes and drawing my handgun then open eyes and see if my sights are on target.

[nwhpfan]

Sometimes people think they are suppossed to do one thing when they should be doing something different. "Natural Point of Aim" is what you should be doing. For example, when you draw, it should be natural to point the gun right where you want to hit. But people get wrapped up in how their feet, upper body, and arms "must" be. As result they see they "naturally" aim to the left or right, and have to adjust or fight it. I would suggest starting with "natural point of aim" and build around that. Really good portion of Brian Enos's book talks about this and I believe...he even says it changes a bit from time to time....

[BES]

Intersecting technique on the sweeping motion to find NPA. I've always done the press out from high ready with eyes closed to see if everything is good and not being forced. I'll have to check that out, I can definitely see the merit. Every time I've trained with AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) guys they have always stressed the hell out of NPA. In my experience it has made a huge difference in ability to make follow up shots quickly at the 300 plus range with M4/M16. The current marksmanship training planning used by 75th RGR RGT relies heavily on index shooting with a pistol. They place a huge emphasis as well on establishing good NPA and engraining that into the sub-conscious.

[the dummy]

My npa involves a lot of running and screaming like a girl. But it is an interesting concept......dummy out

[Gray222]

Intersecting technique on the sweeping motion to find NPA. I've always done the press out from high ready with eyes closed to see if everything is good and not being forced. I'll have to check that out, I can definitely see the merit. Every time I've trained with AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) guys they have always stressed the hell out of NPA. In my experience it has made a huge difference in ability to make follow up shots quickly at the 300 plus range with M4/M16. The current marksmanship training planning used by 75th RGR RGT relies heavily on index shooting with a pistol. They place a huge emphasis as well on establishing good NPA and engraining that into the sub-conscious.

I do the pressout with eyes closed only now, as i stated. Easy to do and id only recommend doing it as a confirmation technique but as a replacement for the sweeping npa technique.

[That Guy]

I'm sorry, but that last sentence did not parse for me. You would recommend the eyes closed draw as a tehcnique for working on your NPA? Or you would only recommend the eyes closed draw as a confirmation technique, and for actually training to find your NPA one should use the sweeping technique?

[7mmSTW]

I was reading in another topic when I saw someone mention this, and decided to explore exactly what natural point of aim is.

While I've discerned what it is, I'm a bit perplexed on how to determine and troubleshoot one's natural POA. I've experimented with one method where you swivel turret-style back and forth until coming to a naturally comfortable position. I've wound up with numerous results from off left to off right and then hi's and lows.

I'm requesting insight and advice on ways to more effectively establish my natural POA.

Question, do you shoot weaver or isoscelese? I grew up shooting positional type competitions with 22 rifles and had NPA driven into my head at an early age. When I went into LE I shot weaver and noticed that every time I went to the range I had a slightly different NPA. Clothing seemed to play a big role in this as if I wasn't wearing my ballistic vest or if I was wearing a jacket this would effect it. Over the years I gravitated towards shooting isosceles and this is one of the variables/issues that went away. I have played with other shooters doing a natural point of aim drill where you have the shooter find their natural point of aim/holster/then draw and fire a predetermined amount of shots starting at close range and moving back further incrementally while having a safety officer hold something in front of their eyes to obscure their view of the target. In my experience weaver shooters are far more susceptible to having their shots wander from the left to right while isosceles shooters will usually center punch the target. I'm not trying to start a war between the shooting styles and this is only my opinion!

[7mmSTW]

Its not that you automatically take that stance, since the situation will dictate what you need to do, its that npa is your ideal shooting position, and when you dont have an ideal to fall back on, it can be much harder to elevate your skill in less than perfect conditions. Knowing what the book says doesnt mean you always follow the book, but if you dont know what the book says, you cant follow the book.

I have worked over the years to make my interview stance my NPA, obviously when people start moving around this will change but its a place to start.

[Gray222]

I'm sorry, but that last sentence did not parse for me. You would recommend the eyes closed draw as a tehcnique for working on your NPA? Or you would only recommend the eyes closed draw as a confirmation technique, and for actually training to find your NPA one should use the sweeping technique?

Sweeping for people who aren't comfortable with NPA.

Eye's close draw to confirm NPA for people who don't need to sweep.

[Thorpe Facer]

Its not that you automatically take that stance, since the situation will dictate what you need to do, its that npa is your ideal shooting position, and when you dont have an ideal to fall back on, it can be much harder to elevate your skill in less than perfect conditions. Knowing what the book says doesnt mean you always follow the book, but if you dont know what the book says, you cant follow the book.

This.

[Gewehr3]

Just curious for those who have mastered their natural point of aim. When you have reached full extension, how much correction do you have to make with your sight picture? Is your front sight always aligned between the rear sights or is it off to some degree? What is a realistic expectation, should my sight alignment be almost perfect when drawing to one's natural point if aim?

Thanks!

[FNFAN]

Natural point of aim is a great thing to determine, but I've always thought it more important for long guns. It's a big help in trapshooting where your ability to swing and lead a bird as the positions/ angles change. Also great for offhand rifle shooting.

For me, the biggest thing I chase is indexing my grip on a handgun. Determining a proper grip that allows accurate unsighted close retention shots and has the sights coming up aligned as you reach full extension is supremely important to me and a big part of dryfire practice. Important enough that any high volume shooting or competition I do is done with the same gun I carry for work or its clone. Since we're a Glock shop, that means my beloved BHP's will pretty much stay lonely in the safe until retirement.

I'd much rather partner with someone who can make hits while running through a tire obstacle course or shoot through a doggy-door level aperture than the guy with a perfect static stance. (oopsie, longer post than I'd planned!)

[SLG]

Just curious for those who have mastered their natural point of aim. When you have reached full extension, how much correction do you have to make with your sight picture? Is your front sight always aligned between the rear sights or is it off to some degree? What is a realistic expectation, should my sight alignment be almost perfect when drawing to one's natural point if aim?

Thanks!

NPA 100% applies to pistol shooting when you are standing still in a proper stance. Even when you are not doing that, NPA is a critical skill because it shows you what right looks like. Really KNOWING what right looks like makes everything easier when performing in conditions that are less than ideal.

I find that when I am in my NPA, my front sight is almost exactly centered in my rear notch. Your wrists will throw this centering aspect off a little, since NPA cannot control your wrists, but with solid NPA and solid technique, my front sight is centered and finds the target on its own, with no outside correction from me. This is a large part of what allows extreme accuracy at extreme speed.

[Mr_White]

This is a large part of what allows extreme accuracy at extreme speed.

Totally agree!

[Peally]

I never bothered really looking at improving it specifically, for rifles or pistols. It just kinda developed where sights showed up where I look when I don't screw something up.

[okie john]

NPA 100% applies to pistol shooting when you are standing still in a proper stance. Even when you are not doing that, NPA is a critical skill because it shows you what right looks like. Really KNOWING what right looks like makes everything easier when performing in conditions that are less than ideal.

I find that when I am in my NPA, my front sight is almost exactly centered in my rear notch. Your wrists will throw this centering aspect off a little, since NPA cannot control your wrists, but with solid NPA and solid technique, my front sight is centered and finds the target on its own, with no outside correction from me. This is a large part of what allows extreme accuracy at extreme speed.

Yep. You're not going to nail it every time, and forget about it if you're moving, if the targets are moving, or if you have multiple targets. But it works like a champ on accuracy tests like The Humbler.


Okie John

[Mr_White]

Yep. You're not going to nail it every time, and forget about it if you're moving, if the targets are moving, or if you have multiple targets. But it works like a champ on accuracy tests like The Humbler.

I wouldn't dispute that it takes practice to create index or that the factors you cite will make it harder, but a developed index has been sufficient for me to hit modestly sized dark targets, in near darkness where I could barely even see the target, strong hand only while on the move right to left, with a gun with black sights. The way I read SLG's post, it seemed like he was using the term 'NPA' interchangeably with the way I'd use the term 'index.' Hopefully I am not just crossing someone's wires there.

[Peally]

I suspect there may be some traditional use of fucky shooting words here. I wasn't equating index to NPOA ;)

Remember kids, lock those elbows! :cool:

[littlejerry]

One of the USPSA GM's I was following talked about maintaining a consistent upper body structure from the abs up. Arm and chest position was consistent as you traversed left/right and moved. Essentially NPOA on a swivel.

NPOA is critical when you want to shoot a small group at 25 yards.

[Mr_White]

One of the USPSA GM's I was following talked about maintaining a consistent upper body structure from the abs up. Arm and chest position was consistent as you traversed left/right and moved. Essentially NPOA on a swivel.

Completely agree with that. Index (I keep using the word index) comes from grip and upper body shooting structure between the torso and arms. Though with enough tension between upper and lower body (think of a right hander, shooting on the move while moving right to left and the engagement angle gets closer to, or beyond, 90 degrees from direction of travel), that can 'pull' on the upper body structure and cause issues too.