Sling Set-up on AR Rifle...

[Cookie Monster]

Looking at the finer points, using an adjustable 2 point sling.

Wondering the difference between using the QD point or sling hole/opening on the buttstock or the QD point at the endplate on the lower receiver? Advantages/Disadvantages?

I see more respected trainers with the sling attached to the buttstock. I've run both in classes and haven't found a preference for myself.

Probably a lot of personal preference, pointing me to any videos/articles/etc about setting up a sling would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[littlejerry]

IME the farther the mounts are apart the more stable the rifle is when slung across your back.

No issues with QD as long as its rotation limited. I like having 1 QD mount for separating the upper and lower

[Default.mp3]

A little older, but good information: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/switching-to-a-2-point-sling-mounting-question?reply=2843236911630989

I'm a nobody with limited carbine experience, but as a righty, I run my on the left end of the rail near the muzzle device and on the right side of the stock. The sling is generally worn basically like a necklace, so it's easy to do manipulations, and shoulder bumping and transitions are both of relative ease. If I need to haul ass, it's easy enough to sling properly, while transitions to pistols are not quite as bad as a single-point, though not as great as a three-point or two-point worn conventionally.

[Cookie Monster]

I am at work checking the thread every 15 minutes, so the I appreciate the response.

[Sadmin]

End plate attachment is for single point carry, or if you get a 2to1 enabled sling. that way its not hanging down to the ground via the stock attachment. Furthest ends of the rifle are, to me, the most safe & versatile setup.

[Casey]

As a general rule, the farther apart the attachment points, the weapon will become more stable, and the range of motion more limited. A single point sling will have the maximum range of motion, but will require a hand on the weapon almost constantly to keep it from swinging around unwanted. A two point attached to the end of the stock and as far forward on the handguard as possible will have a very limited range of motion (unless the sling is very loose), but will be extremely stable and allow for hands-free carriage. As Default.mp3 mentioned, a sling set up in the latter fashion can be worn like a necklace while shooting, and you can also swim your support arm between the weapon and the sling when not shooting.

Personally, I've settled on an adjustable two point attached to the handguard as close to the receiver as possible and to a QD endplate. I have found that this is an excellent compromise between stability and mobility. I can tighten the sling enough to where it is fairly stable, yet still be able to shoulder the rifle, and maintain the ability to trap the stock in my armpit for reloads and malfunction clearance. To be able to do that with the sling attached at the rear of the stock, I would need to run it much looser, to where the rifle would hang lower than I like when not actually shooting. Obviously, one of the benefits of the two point sling is that most are rapidly adjustable, but it is nice to be able to set it and forget it and still have it work in the majority of situations I encounter.

I should mention that all of my slings are set up so they can be converted to single point. The only time I have found the single point to be beneficial is when working in "asymmetric" positions like SBU and Brokeback prone, but even then a two point can work if it's sufficiently loose. And the two point is superior for just about everything else.

[Dave J]

I view the QD on the rear mainly as a convenience. It's easier to fit more rifles in the safe if the slings are removed, and I can use the same slings for other guns.

Overseas, I preferred having a QD socket both on the buttstock and on the receiver end. In some vehicles, switching to the receiver QD made it a lot less likely for the buttstock to hit me in the mouth or chin when bouncing over rough terrain.

[Dropkick]

I took me a while to find this, but I like the method Failure2Stop describes and shows here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3090-Carbine-Basics&p=78651&viewfull=1#post78651

[SLG]

...And the two point is superior for just about everything else.

I hear this from time to time, and I just don't get it. A two point is great for carrying the rifle behind you (like for climbing stuff or going hands on), and it is also good for...

A single point is better for every facet of shooting and gun handling (except slinging up, which a true 2 point won't do either), except strapping the gun tightly to you. If you are going to run a single point, I think it is mandatory to either have a convertible to 2 point sling, or to wear a weapons catch. I wore a weapons catch for many years, but when I started carrying a breaching shotgun in the catch, that didn't work anymore, and now I much prefer a convertible, so problem solved.

My main, issued weapon has a convertible sling on it, since most of the time it gets used for cqb type stuff. My personal weapons all have adjustable 2 (or 3 point slings on them so I can actually use them as shooting aids), because if'n it's personal, I'm unlikely to have gear on me, and more likely to want to do other things with the gun, like sling up for a difficult shot. In that case, I use a PIG sling, and it is attached as it has to be to work properly.

[Josh Runkle]

I'm a big fan of the non-padded vickers bfg sling. I do not like the padded version. I used to carry qd to the rear of the receiver, but now prefer to the buttstock.

[Casey]

I hear this from time to time, and I just don't get it. A two point is great for carrying the rifle behind you (like for climbing stuff or going hands on), and it is also good for...
And good for carrying the rifle in front of me, and better controls the rifle in the unlikely event I need to transition to the pistol. That said, I do agree that...


A single point is better for every facet of shooting and gun handling...
I haul around a rifle for 12 hours a day at work, but haven't shot anyone yet, so admittedly my perspective is colored by the fact that I carry a rifle far more than I shoot a rifle. You're absolutely right, for pure shooting, the single point is better. I should have qualified my statement based on how I employ a rifle. That said, other than those unconventional shooting positions, I haven't encountered many instances where the two point was a hinderance.

[Josh Runkle]

I hear this from time to time, and I just don't get it. A two point is great for carrying the rifle behind you (like for climbing stuff or going hands on), and it is also good for...

A single point is better for every facet of shooting and gun handling (except slinging up, which a true 2 point won't do either), except strapping the gun tightly to you. If you are going to run a single point, I think it is mandatory to either have a convertible to 2 point sling, or to wear a weapons catch. I wore a weapons catch for many years, but when I started carrying a breaching shotgun in the catch, that didn't work anymore, and now I much prefer a convertible, so problem solved.

My main, issued weapon has a convertible sling on it, since most of the time it gets used for cqb type stuff. My personal weapons all have adjustable 2 (or 3 point slings on them so I can actually use them as shooting aids), because if'n it's personal, I'm unlikely to have gear on me, and more likely to want to do other things with the gun, like sling up for a difficult shot. In that case, I use a PIG sling, and it is attached as it has to be to work properly.

I certainly respect that you have a much more serious career using guns, probably more experience than me, etc...

However, your experience is not at all similar to mine. (With the exception of convertible slings.) I like using a single point sling for subguns, and a three point sling if there is no chance of wearing a plate carrier with any mags mounted, I'm not going prone, etc., meaning, in a t-shirt, at the range, a three point sling is great. And with a subgun, a single point sling is great.

Outside of that, for me, I have found the two-point, rapidly-adjustable sling to be king. It is more comfortable and easier to deploy from a slung position, transitions to handgun are easier, best option with armor or mag carriers on the chest, better to hop a fence with, and the list goes on and on.

However, I should add that some tactics come in to play in my decision making as well. I don't believe in shooting a carbine offhand with two hands. Yes, I practice it "wronghandedly", but for me, it is only in the event that my primary hand does not work. I don't believe in switching offhand to create less of a target when "cutting the pie" doing room clearing, or other examples of when switching to off-handed operation of the firearm may be taught or recommended. So, some of the perceived benefits of a single point sling for a carbine or rifle may not be something that I would consider at all, but may be a consideration for someone else.

I just politely disagree, but recognize that you may probably have much more professional and/or practical experience in this area than I do, but your experience does not mimic mine.

ETA: I understand that you see the merits of 2-point for climbing, moving, etc., my points of disagreement are purely related to the aspect of shooting.

Also ETA: I LOATHE most padded 2 point slings. I am only referring to non-padded versions. The padded versions definitely slow me down and occasionally interfere with my ability to snap the gun up into a perfect cheek weld.

[NickDrak]

I run a "Way Of The Gun" Proctor QD sling (FR & R QD swivels): http://www.wayofthegun.us/black-proctor-sling-w-qd-swivels/

Im a right handed shooter, and I have the front of the sling mounted as close to the muzzle end as possible on the left side of the handguard, and the rear of the sling is plugged into the stock on the outside of the stock (right side of stock).

This video by Mac sums up pretty much exactly how I run my sling (minus the "SlingDing") in a LE patrol rifle context:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSFObuF_IU

I used to be a big proponent of single point slings, but running my 2-point this way (looped over the neck like a necklace), I see zero benefit in running a single point over a 2-point.

I also found single point slings to be a mess when it comes to placing bad guys into custody or dragging downed good guys. Even with the 1 to 2 convertible slings, I don't want to have to monkey around with converting my sling from 1 to 2 point in a bad situation.

I also haven't found any of the 1 to 2 point convertible slings that function anywhere near as well in 2-point configuration as a dedicated 2-point sling like the WOTG Proctor sling, the SOB B-Sling, or a BFG Vickers sling.

[rob_s]

Over the years I have gone from a carry strap, to a single-point, to a two point close mounted (barrel nut and castle nut) to a two-piping far mounted (muzzle end of rail, outside of butt stock) to finally arrive at using a Magpul Ms3 with mounts at all four locations and a single-point adapter on the sling.

The sling is, almost always, far mounted, and on guns where I don't have the ability to mount four points I use an SOB sling far-mounted, but with most guns I see no reason not to have options.

FWIW, the two-point close-mounted pretty much turned out to be pointless to me. All of the instability of the single point with none of the benefits of the far-mounting.

But, to the OP, if this thread has taught you nothing else it should be that there is no right answer. You have to find what works for you, in your application.

I will say that shooting with Kyle Lamb, Kyle Defoor, and Pat McNamara taught me some ways to overcome the perceived negatives of the two-point and many actual benefits that led me to pretty much never need or want to put the sling into two-point mode.

[SLG]

Everyone has different needs/wants/skills/perceptions. When old style 3 points were all the rage, I ran an old Bonnie Packer 2 point. Even bought 100 of them for my unit at the time. When the Vickers sling came out, I switched to that, though before that, I had already been using a single point a lot. Used the VTAC for many years as well, and still do. When the modern 3 point PIG sling came out, that mostly replaced my 2 point slings, but not entirely. A buddy makes a little known 2 point sling that i like a lot on non AR's. RS-1 from Riflecraft, though all of his slings are very good.

I don't believe in switching shoulders 99.9% of the time, so that doesn't drive my single point use. I do believe in being able to instantly go from low gun to high gun, to striking with the weapon, to shooting it, to reloading it, to transition (very little use for that skill in the real world, imo, unless it is proactive, which I do alot). I see people fighting their slings all the time. For me, a single point sling is the next best thing to not having a sling on it at all - which is probably what its critics think as well:-) When I have a single point sling on, I'm wearing a plate carrier as well. Gun sits inbetween mag pouches really well for short term "drops", and only takes a few seconds to convert it and sling it behind me.

At any rate, I'm in no way trying to convert anyone to anything. People who make slings, are usually trying to sell them. Nothing wrong with that, as they usually really believe in them. I just haven't seen anything on or off the range that would make me doubt the capability and versatility of the modern single point. Can a 2 point be used very effectively? Of course. So can a single.

[JAD]

I very much appreciate the discussion. I don't run a carbine for anything but fun, but I showed up to a recent combo class with my circa-1997 carry strap and felt like I was missing something.

[GRV]

I used to be a big proponent of single point slings, but running my 2-point this way (looped over the neck like a necklace)

Do you ever let the gun hang by itself when in necklace mode? Or do you transition to arm through for that?

I ask because that looks like it would put a lot of strain on the neck, especially long term.

[rob_s]

Do you ever let the gun hang by itself when in necklace mode? Or do you transition to arm through for that?

I ask because that looks like it would put a lot of strain on the neck, especially long term.

IME...

you *can* let it hang from your neck if you need/want to very quickly, for example to transition to a handgun, but it's not ideal. If there is time then sticking the arm through is better, and it doesn't really take much time at all. You can see how quickly Mac does it in the video, and if your hand is already on the forend it's even faster.

[breakingtime91]

IME...

you *can* let it hang from your neck if you need/want to very quickly, for example to transition to a handgun, but it's not ideal. If there is time then sticking the arm through is better, and it doesn't really take much time at all. You can see how quickly Mac does it in the video, and if your hand is already on the forend it's even faster.

This. I patrolled a lot more then I fought in Afghanistan. I used a two point because I was made to. I figured out really quick that to get full mobility while searching I would have to either take it off or necklace it. I searched probably 30-50 small dug outs where field workers lived in the poppy field by necklacing my sling and putting my stock over my shoulder... as ideal as a one point? Nope but gotta do what u gotta do. I will say I had a couple times where I had to go hands on with someone I startled and thag shit was not ideal for weapon retention or nice on my neck :(

[SLG]

This. I patrolled a lot more then I fought in Afghanistan. I used a two point because I was made to. I figured out really quick that to get full mobility while searching I would have to either take it off or necklace it. I searched probably 30-50 small dug outs where field workers lived in the poppy field by necklacing my sling and putting my stock over my shoulder... as ideal as a one point? Nope but gotta do what u gotta do. I will say I had a couple times where I had to go hands on with someone I startled and thag shit was not ideal for weapon retention or nice on my neck :(

And this is why i really do like the single point. By having the 2 point sling only on the neck, you negate many if not all of its advantages, in order to allow the gun to move as if it was on a single point sling, while having none of the advantages of a single point sling.

Anyway, enough beating a dead horse, they all have pros and cons. I just get tired of hearing some well known personalities slam the single point all the time. No one on this forum.

[BES]

I used to run a 2 point and follow the rant and rave of the personalities SLG is probably referring to. I then did some force on force and got my world rocked by hands on "combatant" when entering a room. Even though the sling was loose for freedom of movement the anchor points made it very easy to control me by grabbing the rifle or getting a handful of sling. You see some instructors teaching people to run 2 points just around the neck to allow for transitions. Rembering a fundamnental rule of combatives: "where the head and neck go, the body will follow" After learning all that the hardway by getting my neck halfway yanked off. I now run a 1 point that can also switch to 2 point. IMO it gives you the best freedom of maneuver. The new Hayley Strategic sling really catches my eye in its multi-role design. Worth checking out if you haven't seen it.

[John Hearne]

A lot of this goes back to what you're doing with the gun.

To me, the single point has a fairly narrow niche - for when the gun is in your hands 99.99% of the time and the sling is strictly to keep the gun on you when you transition. As a short term tool in a strictly CQB environment, I can see how the single point might work for some. For long hours of carrying a carbine, the single point sucks. I once did it 12 hours a day for fourteen days straight. I immediately ditched the single point when I got home. Not mentioned with the single point is that the gun ends up covering your own feet. I no longer remember the hard numbers but when you examine ND's with injuries overseas, the most common problem is rifle discharge into the feet. The culprit - single point slings and gear knocking the gun off of safe.

Once your carbine is for more general use, the two point really shows its merit. If the gun is carried for any extended period of time, the padded two-point is hard to beat. I have also found the quick-adjust two-point very handy as a shooting aid at distance. The fact that the gun hangs in a manner that minimizes muzzling also appeals to me. I don't do a lot of shoulder swapping but generally the slack in a two point worn over a shoulder is enough. If I know I'm going to be swapping a lot, then I have run it over my neck as a temporary measure.

I have a Magpul sling that converts from single to double but haven't had enough time to play with it yet.

[HCM]

A lot of this goes back to what you're doing with the gun.

To me, the single point has a fairly narrow niche - for when the gun is in your hands 99.99% of the time and the sling is strictly to keep the gun on you when you transition. As a short term tool in a strictly CQB environment, I can see how the single point might work for some. For long hours of carrying a carbine, the single point sucks. I once did it 12 hours a day for fourteen days straight. I immediately ditched the single point when I got home. Not mentioned with the single point is that the gun ends up covering your own feet. I no longer remember the hard numbers but when you examine ND's with injuries overseas, the most common problem is rifle discharge into the feet. The culprit - single point slings and gear knocking the gun off of safe.

Once your carbine is for more general use, the two point really shows its merit. If the gun is carried for any extended period of time, the padded two-point is hard to beat. I have also found the quick-adjust two-point very handy as a shooting aid at distance. The fact that the gun hangs in a manner that minimizes muzzling also appeals to me. I don't do a lot of shoulder swapping but generally the slack in a two point worn over a shoulder is enough. If I know I'm going to be swapping a lot, then I have run it over my neck as a temporary measure.

I have a Magpul sling that converts from single to double but haven't had enough time to play with it yet.

I also prefer a 2 point that can occasionally be converted to single point. I usually run the same padded VTAC slings we run at work. Viking Tactics offers a 2 to 1 conversion adaptor for slings with QD adapters. http://www.vikingtactics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VTAC-2to1

[Casey]

I also haven't found any of the 1 to 2 point convertible slings that function anywhere near as well in 2-point configuration as a dedicated 2-point sling like the WOTG Proctor sling, the SOB B-Sling, or a BFG Vickers sling.
Have you tried the Gen2 version of the Magpul MS4 (http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/slings/ms4-dual-qd-multi-mission-sling-gen2-rng-sku100013982-56889-126826.aspx)? I run VCAS slings on my personal guns, but have been trying out the MS4 on my work rifle for about six months now, and I really, really like it. I've found it is easier to adjust than the VCAS, as the Gen2 version replaces the Gen1 loop adjuster with a slider. I primarily run it as a two point (again, I carry a rifle far more often than I shoot a rifle), but it works quite well when converted to single point mode, as I do during some range training.

[SLG]

...

I also haven't found any of the 1 to 2 point convertible slings that function anywhere near as well in 2-point configuration as a dedicated 2-point sling like the WOTG Proctor sling, the SOB B-Sling, or a BFG Vickers sling.

I have found that all of mine do. There is no magic to a 2 point sling. Most of my slings are 2 point slings that I adapted to run as a 1 or 2 point sling. VTAC, VCAS both work very well in this role. I have some custom made, dedicated slings that I really like, but they really don't do the job "better" than a VTAC.

What do you think/find a 2 point sling to do better than a 1 point sling that is set up the same way as your favorite 2 point? The WOG sling is extremely minimal, and not suitable for long term carry of a normal to heavy weight weapon, ime, but others may disagree.

[rob_s]

The first one-to-two point sling I used was a BFG VCAS with a little dongle added with a steel ring and an HK-style clip on the end to move back and forth. I learned a lot about the various types of HK clips that are on the market, not all are the same. I liked the concept of the original Magpul sling just not the strap width and not the hardware.

The current Magpul MS4 (https://www.magpul.com/products/ms4-dual-qd-sling) basically does everything by using QD sockets (which I like) and adds in the width of the VCAS, plus a better slider IMO.

I would suggest anyone that's unsure about their setup or looking to experiment to get the MS4 and put a socket at the muzzle end of the handguard, the barrel nut, the castle nut, and the outside toe/heel of the stock and see what works best.

FWIW, I'm not fighting with a rifle. If the SHTFantasy comes to pass and I drag my "home defense carbine" out of the safe, it has an SOB sling banded to it in case I'd need one. For a long time it had no sling at all, and I wouldn't feel bad going back to that setup one bit.

[Gray222]

I run two points for pretty much every rifle other than my 7inch gun, thats on a single point.

One thing to remember is that when you are running a sling and doing any type of cq work, there should be other answers which can be used to answer the obvious question of what happens when someone grabs my gun or sling.

[rob_s]

I just get tired of hearing some well known personalities slam the single point all the time.

Sidetrack perhaps...

Do you think that, as their "mission" changes, so does their gear selection? Someone that may once have been a high-speed, face-shooting, door-kicking, ninja but who now mostly spends their time on the range teaching those types (or those who aspire to mimic those types) may have a shift in focus that even they don't notice. Suddenly, a guy who used to be thinking about shooting his rifle finds himself thinking about carrying his rifle, and adjust his thinking and gear choices accordingly, and perhaps even his gear designs.

[breakingtime91]

I run two points for pretty much every rifle other than my 7inch gun, thats on a single point.

One thing to remember is that when you are running a sling and doing any type of cq work, there should be other answers which can be used to answer the obvious question of what happens when someone grabs my gun or sling.

That is true but to say that a two point is just as good for cqb work as a good one point is wrong.. Also a lot of the guys using rifles exclusively over seas (think marine or army infantry) don't have secondaries so the transition isn't as big of a deal. With that said I think the convertible slings are pretty cool but use a two point for my cake eating civilian needs =D

[Gray222]

That is true but to say that a two point is just as good for cqb work as a good one point is wrong.. Also a lot of the guys using rifles exclusively over seas (think marine or army infantry) don't have secondaries so the transition isn't as big of a deal. With that said I think the convertible slings are pretty cool but use a two point for my cake eating civilian needs =D

I disagree. It is all dependant on a persona ability and knowledge of tactics and combatives. Without getting into specific tactics ill say that a blade will offset any such worries when implemented properly.

[HCM]

That is true but to say that a two point is just as good for cqb work as a good one point is wrong.. Also a lot of the guys using rifles exclusively over seas (think marine or army infantry) don't have secondaries so the transition isn't as big of a deal. With that said I think the convertible slings are pretty cool but use a two point for my cake eating civilian needs =D

One of my co-workers, who is also one of our better DT Instructors addresses tjis issue. He deployed to Iraq as a USMC reservist in 2005-2006. During that deployment an infantry Marine working a vehicle checkpoint got into an altercation with an Iraqi driver. The Iraqi got hold of the Marines Rifle (M16A2 ) which was attached to the Marine via a 3 point sling. The Iraqi was apparently throwing him around pretty good. The Marine did not have a handgun and wound up stabbing the Iraqi with a KaBar. Apparently getting a "knife kill" was uncommon enough the Marune became a minor celebrity.

Regarding the two point versus one point. It depends on what you're doing. For what I use a rifle for at work the two point fits my needs much more often than a 1 point. We also do a fair amount of deploying the rifle from vehicles in which case I actually prefer the sling folded flat and banded to the stock out of the way to a 1 point or 2 point

[theJanitor]

When I really got serious about getting proficient with my AR, I was lucky that a good friend of mine was an instructor with Magpul (before the internet stardom). He was using a convertible single point on his deployments and gave me two to train with. I've never found anything better to shoot with than that single point, but I shoot very little nowadays, and carry my rifle on the farm and such with a two point.

Here is the Pre-Magpul MS1. Hardware from HK and the boating store. No stitching, as everything is secured with the buckles. You can see the resemblance to the first Magpul sling. there were no sliders, or length adjusters. It was really meant as a CQB sling, with the crude ability to convert to a 2-point.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h30/grandprixboy/5572D7EB-27FD-4D6F-B94C-650E338A5300_10.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/grandprixboy/media/5572D7EB-27FD-4D6F-B94C-650E338A5300_10.jpg.html)

[breakingtime91]

I disagree. It is all dependant on a persona ability and knowledge of tactics and combatives. Without getting into specific tactics ill say that a blade will offset any such worries when implemented properly.

If those situations would of went lethal, I would of used a blade. Those situations did not call for lethal force, the guys were just startled to see me and instead of having them reach for a weapon I quickly subdued them and called more guys in. Gees Voodoo, we cant stab everyone :p

[SLG]

I'm on the road can can't post a pic, but I think that there is a misunderstanding on how to use a convertible efficiently. Slings that have two QD swivels on them are far from ideal for conversions. The way the ball bearings work on them, it is too easy to screw up the locking process when you are in a rush, wearing gloves, in the dark, under stress, etc. I have seen this many times in person. You think the sling is secure and then the gun falls off you.

The rear point can have a QD, as mine does, but the front point needs to be faster and simpler. The HK hooks don't cut it. The original Magpul claw thing might be good, but I know of no real data on it, in terms of construction or longevity.

The best I have found is a MASH hook. Used in conjunction with a ring on the sling, it is very fast, extremely strong and very hard to screw up. I use an IWC front mount to hook it onto for 2 point action and then the ring on my sling for Single point use. If I have time or need, I can remove the rear QD swivel from the rear of the receiver and mount it at the rear of the stock and have absolutely everything a "normal" 2 point adjustable has, but still retain the ability to transition it to a single point. Having worked in extremely rural environments, I often patrolled in to a target with the sling set fully up for 2 point use. At our final staging point before an assault, I would transition the sling to single point. Worked perfectly, and provided zero downsides at any point. Obviously, YMMV.

[Gray222]

If those situations would of went lethal, I would of used a blade. Those situations did not call for lethal force, the guys were just startled to see me and instead of having them reach for a weapon I quickly subdued them and called more guys in. Gees Voodoo, we cant stab everyone :p

My point was that if someone grabs your sling, which is attached to your rifle, it is lethal force; would you allow someone to grab the magazine of your pistol?

...and yes, we can stab anyone and everyone who posses a lethal threat, and you should be thinking along those lines at all times.

[breakingtime91]

I'm on the road can can't post a pic, but I think that there is a misunderstanding on how to use a convertible efficiently. Slings that have two QD swivels on them are far from ideal for conversions. The way the ball bearings work on them, it is too easy to screw up the locking process when you are in a rush, wearing gloves, in the dark, under stress, etc. I have seen this many times in person. You think the sling is secure and then the gun falls off you.

The rear point can have a QD, as mine does, but the front point needs to be faster and simpler. The HK hooks don't cut it. The original Magpul claw thing might be good, but I know of no real data on it, in terms of construction or longevity.

The best I have found is a MASH hook. Used in conjunction with a ring on the sling, it is very fast, extremely strong and very hard to screw up. I use an IWC front mount to hook it onto for 2 point action and then the ring on my sling for Single point use. If I have time or need, I can remove the rear QD swivel from the rear of the receiver and mount it at the rear of the stock and have absolutely everything a "normal" 2 point adjustable has, but still retain the ability to transition it to a single point. Having worked in extremely rural environments, I often patrolled in to a target with the sling set fully up for 2 point use. At our final staging point before an assault, I would transition the sling to single point. Worked perfectly, and provided zero downsides at any point. Obviously, YMMV.

Very cool information, copy and saved in my good tips file. I tried the magpul claw and found it clumsy, especially under stress/sweaty/ and or bloody.

[breakingtime91]

My point was that if someone grabs your sling, which is attached to your rifle, it is lethal force; would you allow someone to grab the magazine of your pistol?

...and yes, we can stab anyone and everyone who posses a lethal threat, and you should be thinking along those lines at all times.

I would of got the book thrown at me for stabbing an unarmed man in 2012 afghanistan bro. I have no issue being violent or doing what needs done, I have a problem going to jail after. If your refering to the LTs incident in training, fuck ya stab the shit out of him. The guys I dealt with quickly realized what was happening and were compliant.

[BES]

Lol, Voodoo is all about that blade work I see. Voodoo you're right, there are definitely a number of ways to deal with someone grabbing your weapon or sling. Ill be sure to slice and dice them for you next time :). Personally I'd just like to be setup to NOT have to to deal with that situation in the first place if possible. SLG, I'd definitely like to see your setup too. I looked at the MASH hook just now....that is awesome. I'm scratching my head as to why more people don't use that.

[Gray222]

I would of got the book thrown at me for stabbing an unarmed man in 2012 afghanistan bro. I have no issue being violent or doing what needs done, I have a problem going to jail after. If your refering to the LTs incident in training, fuck ya stab the shit out of him. The guys I dealt with quickly realized what was happening and were compliant.

I wasn't speaking to his incident or issue, nor yours, I was speaking in general terms. Fact is, every situation will be different and it is up to the individual person determine the best course of action.

I default to a deadly force level threat when someone touches my gun while its in my hands.


Lol, Voodoo is all about that blade work I see. Voodoo you're right, there are definitely a number of ways to deal with someone grabbing your weapon or sling. Ill be sure to slice and dice them for you next time :). Personally I'd just like to be setup to NOT have to to deal with that situation in the first place if possible. SLG, I'd definitely like to see your setup too. I looked at the MASH hook just now....that is awesome. I'm scratching my head as to why more people don't use that.

If you need a proper blade, let me know I got a hook up for some seriously cool stuff.

[breakingtime91]

If you need a proper blade, let me know I got a hook up for some seriously cool stuff.

gotta love this community.

[Cookie Monster]

Thanks for all the discussion, been dry practicing with the AR in garage and carrying it around the house after the wife goes to sleep.

Question, if I am using the sling for additional support it is better to have the forward sling attachment in front of my hand or behind my hand. I can only get so tactical in the garage with the family sleeping.

Second on Tom's request, also any pictures of slings attached to AR's is interesting to me because yea.

[rob_s]

I'm on the road can can't post a pic, but I think that there is a misunderstanding on how to use a convertible efficiently.
What makes you say that?


Slings that have two QD swivels on them are far from ideal for conversions. The way the ball bearings work on them, it is too easy to screw up the locking process when you are in a rush, wearing gloves, in the dark, under stress, etc. I have seen this many times in person. You think the sling is secure and then the gun falls off you.
Thank god I, nor likely most of the people on this forum, have to do those kinds of things with my carbine, nor face those kinds of perils.

[Gray222]

Thanks for all the discussion, been dry practicing with the AR in garage and carrying it around the house after the wife goes to sleep.

Question, if I am using the sling for additional support it is better to have the forward sling attachment in front of my hand or behind my hand. I can only get so tactical in the garage with the family sleeping.

Second on Tom's request, also any pictures of slings attached to AR's is interesting to me because yea.

I'll taking some photos later today/night so stay tuned for various photos with various slings (I have like four or five different types).

[SLG]

What makes you say that?


Thank god I, nor likely most of the people on this forum, have to do those kinds of things with my carbine, nor face those kinds of perils.

Cant tell if you are being serious or not with the second part.

For the first part, I say that because it seems that most of the converti b le slings available today use some sort of qd swivels on both ends. They are a clean, easy solution, but imo, they fail to optimize the slings use.

[Default.mp3]

Can you guys post a picture of how you have a sling banded to the stock? Thanks!Some more info/alternatives here: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/sling-management-for-vehicles-etc?reply=4814467381932817

The BCM stock comes with the ridiculously named "Modular VBOST (Vehicle Borne Operations Sling Tab)" for this use:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/download.jpg

[Casey]

SLG makes some interesting points about rapidly converting between sling modes. All of my slings use QDs at both ends: the aforementioned MS4 on my work rifle, and the VCAS slings on my personal guns, one of which has a IWC adapter, while the other one uses a BFG Burnsed socket. Switching modes on any of those is not exactly intuitive nor foolproof. I can certainly see how that could be problematic under stress. I'll have to take a look at the MASH hook and the current Magpul clip, which I understand has been improved over the Gen1 clip.

On the other hand, as I said before, I have no issue running the sling in two point mode, so maybe I'm looking for a solution to a problem that I don't really have, given how I use a rifle.

[StraitR]

SLG makes some interesting points about rapidly converting between sling modes. All of my slings use QDs at both ends: the aforementioned MS4 on my work rifle, and the VCAS slings on my personal guns, one of which has a IWC adapter, while the other one uses a BFG Burnsed socket. Switching modes on any of those is not exactly intuitive nor foolproof. I can certainly see how that could be problematic under stress. I'll have to take a look at the MASH hook and the current Magpul clip, which I understand has been improved over the Gen1 clip.

On the other hand, as I said before, I have no issue running the sling in two point mode, so maybe I'm looking for a solution to a problem that I don't really have, given how I use a rifle.

He does. I may have to take the MS2 off my weed whacker and give it another try.

[rob_s]

Cant tell if you are being serious or not with the second part.

Somewhat, yes.

The point is that so often in these discussions everyone is so busy defending their way they fail to realize that not everyone has the same application.

and that's ignoring the differences between an actual application vs. a fantasized, or a previous application to a current.

Most people not employing rifles in a professional role (and frankly, many that are employing them professionally) will never encounter a situation where the rifle is a fighting tool, let alone one where the sling matters, let alone one where the sling attachment method matters, let alone one where the sling attachment method fails in such a way as to be of a critical, fight defining, nature.

Is the mash hook a "better" way of moving the end point around? Maybe. Is it really likely to matter? Unlikely.

(cue the "it's not the odds, it's the stakes" mantra, I suppose)

I get that for the applications you're referencing you're using what works best for you and the consequences of failure are high. For the rest of us, with far reduced consequences, I frankly don't think it matters much. I've used mash hooks, HK hooks, and QD (plus a brief stint with various maritime attachment and the thus-derived Magpul "snapshackle") and I prefer the QD since (a) I'm not shooting people and (b) the QD are the least obtrusive to me and (c) I have a bunch of them and (d) it allows me one attachment method at all four points and (e) I'm not changing sling modes rapidly and (f) even if I am the consequences are near nill and (g) I've figured out that all I need to do is give a little tug to ensure it's engaged after changing modes.

[rob_s]

I have no issue running the sling in two point mode, so maybe I'm looking for a solution to a problem that I don't really have, given how I use a rifle.

IMO, this is what matters most. The internet is great for exposing us to ideas we might not have otherwise encountered.

It's also horrible for the same reason.

[SLG]

Rob_S,

What you say is certainly a valid way of looking at it. Following that logic, one might as well not be on this forum, since knowing anything about using a gun is unlikely to really matter. We all have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to gear, training time, application and ultimately, skill. I prefer to be better than anyone I might ever run into, so my line is pretty far down the road. I want all of my gear to help me use my skill, not hold me back. Is it unlikely to matter? Maybe. Do I sleep well at night knowing that I do everything I can to keep my teammates safe? Yup.

As an aside, most of the stuff that I and some others here are concerned about, are concerns because bad things have happened to good people over the years, directly related to the issues we look to solve. As they say, you either learn from history, or you repeat it.

[MVS]

My two main issues with using a 2 point are shoulder transitions and reloads. These could be mitigated using a single point, but being a cake eating civilian who doesn't "wear" his rifle except when at classes or training, the 2 point makes more sense for me. It is definitely interesting hearing the different opinions and the reasons for them. Bill Rogers almost convinced me to go single point in his video.

[NickDrak]

Do you ever let the gun hang by itself when in necklace mode? Or do you transition to arm through for that?

I ask because that looks like it would put a lot of strain on the neck, especially long term.

Occasionally if it's just for a quick second. If I'm going to let it hang for any extended period of time I'll loop my arm thru.

[El Cid]

Can you guys post a picture of how you have a sling banded to the stock? Thanks!

I can't find the tutorial - thought it was from Modern Service Weapons. It involves cutting lengths of shock cord. Here's a pic of mine.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsmzsq4kvi.jpg


Lots of great info and tips in this thread. One I'll add is to avoid single point bungee slings. They are an invitation to a fat/busted lip.

[NickDrak]

Blue Force Gear "Sling Sleeve" and SOB "Combat Band":
5676

5677


Can you guys post a picture of how you have a sling banded to the stock? Thanks!

[NickDrak]

What do you think/find a 2 point sling to do better than a 1 point sling that is set up the same way as your favorite 2 point? The WOG sling is extremely minimal, and not suitable for long term carry of a normal to heavy weight weapon, ime, but others may disagree.

SLG,
I like having the adjuster/slider up by my support hand. This helps me cinch down the sling to support my shooting position for longer/tougher shots and its also easier to adjust the sling and be able to use it to support my shooting position when moving to kneeling as well.

I guess I am also running mine basically as a 1 to 2 point sling since I loop the dedicated 2 point over my neck and run it similar to a 1 point until I need to sling the gun or support my shooting position. Same end result as yours, just a different solution.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I like 2-points fixed on the butt stock and maybe 10 canadametres out from the receiver.

But I shoot rifles that are mostly in recce configuration, and I like being able to tension the sling with my back for longer shots.

For guns that are coming with me all day on a hike, I really like the vickers medic sling with adjustment at either end.

For short guns I don't mind single points, and for pump shotguns I have switched to singles or nothing.

[Surf]

Great blast down memory lane.

I also started off pre-magpul with convertible slings. Back then it was standard webbing type of slings and fastex type buckles. Progressing into converting the old green HK slings with their clips and additional D rings and making convertible slings. When the very first BFG Vickers slings hit the market, it was a no brainer to use this sling as the base and I went from using those with fastex, to HK clips, to mash hooks. Then QD's became the rage as they were showing up on everything, rails, end plates, butt stocks and finally sling sliders. I got way too many pictures of these various evolution's and the various things I have progressed with rifles and accessories.

Right now I use convertible slings, but if I don't have a convertible sling I will stick with a 2 point. Front is dependent, but mostly forward, rear is outside of the stock. 90% of the time I am running two point, but often drop an arm and go into necklace mode as a quick transition and been doing that for years. But when I know I am doing tight in structure stuff I like to go single point off the end plate.

[HCM]

Per Toms request: you can also fold the sling against the forearm if it impedes your cheek weld.

5709

5710

5711

5712

[SLG]

Terrible pics. VDM was busy, blame him. :-)
5726
5727

[MVS]

SLG, how are you not dead? An Eotech.:rolleyes:

[SLG]

SLG, how are you not dead? An Eotech.:rolleyes:

I just game with it. Counteracts the evil. Only timmy's need to worry about it.


Actually, though I've run similar guns for years, this one is an older setup, and not how I prefer to do things today. Here is the gun I shot the Run and Gun with. Pretty close to my current preferences.
5731

[HCM]

I just game with it. Counteracts the evil. Only timmy's need to worry about it.


Actually, though I've run similar guns for years, this one is an older setup, and not how I prefer to do things today. Here is the gun I shot the Run and Gun with. Pretty close to my current preferences.
5731

What sling is that ? It looks like a Ching sling for an AR ?

Also what reticle are you running in the NF ?

[SLG]

hah! It is a ching sling for an AR! It's called the SMS sling from PIG. SKD tactical sells them. Full disclosure, I designed it.

I normally run a MIL-R reticle in all my scopes, but that particular scope is a mil-dot.

[HCM]

hah! It is a ching sling for an AR! It's called the SMS sling from PIG. SKD tactical sells them. Full disclosure, I designed it.

I normally run a MIL-R reticle in all my scopes, but that particular scope is a mil-dot.

I have the same scope with a Velocity 600 but I'm not liking it as much as I thought I would and was thinking of having the reticle swapped. I was looking at the MOAR which seems to be an MOA version of the Mil-R.

I will check out the sling. I've long been of the opinion an AR in 6.8 or 6.5 with a FF tube and LPV would fit Coopers modern scout criteria pretty well.

[SLG]

I have the same scope with a Velocity 600 but I'm not liking it as much as I thought I would and was thinking of having the reticle swapped. I was looking at the MOAR which seems to be an MOA version of the Mil-R.

I will check out the sling. I've long been of the opinion an AR in 6.8 or 6.5 with a FF tube and LPV would fit Coopers modern scout criteria pretty well.

The MOAR is an excellent reticle, and if you prefer moa, I'm sure you will like it. I had a Velocity 600 for years and though it was ok, it is limiting for what i like to do.

I have a 6.5 Grendel that is almost identical to the 2nd gun I posted. Both have T2's offset in Larue mounts, and the sling really helps for positional shooting. It is a heavier gun than a true Scout, but I consider it the 2014 thinking man's Scout. Mine shoots out to 1,000 plus, as well as up close very well, and kills anything (so far) up to deer. I would not hesitate to take it Elk hunting.

[BobM]

I like that SMS sling. I have a new rifle on order and will try on of those out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

I have a 6.5 Grendel that is almost identical to the 2nd gun I posted. Both have T2's offset in Larue mounts, and the sling really helps for positional shooting. It is a heavier gun than a true Scout, but I consider it the 2014 thinking man's Scout. Mine shoots out to 1,000 plus, as well as up close very well, and kills anything (so far) up to deer. I would not hesitate to take it Elk hunting.

I need to either make you sit down and write up something about the 6.5G or do it for you via email questions.

[rob_s]

Silly name aside, I'm very curious to try one of these

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/HALEY-STRATEGIC-DISRUPTIV-398-ENVIRONM-398-NTS-R-p/hsp-d3rs-bk.htm

[LittleLebowski]

Silly name aside, I'm very curious to try one of these

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/HALEY-STRATEGIC-DISRUPTIV-398-ENVIRONM-398-NTS-R-p/hsp-d3rs-bk.htm

$89, too rich for my blood.

[rob_s]

$89, too rich for my blood.

It's certainly up there.

The question is, what's the ratio of name-branding:hard-costs built in to that price.

[MVS]

Silly name aside, I'm very curious to try one of these

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/HALEY-STRATEGIC-DISRUPTIV-398-ENVIRONM-398-NTS-R-p/hsp-d3rs-bk.htm

Interested me as well, though the price is a bit of a turn off.

[Casey]

Silly name aside, I'm very curious to try one of these

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/HALEY-STRATEGIC-DISRUPTIV-398-ENVIRONM-398-NTS-R-p/hsp-d3rs-bk.htm
Looks like a nice sling, but I dislike that it incorporates the same adjustment loop that you found on the first generation Magpul slings. I much prefer the lower-profile slider on their Gen2 slings.