Maintenance schedule and service life of a Airwieght J-Frame?

[Lester Polfus]

In this thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18538-Smith-and-Wesson-638-3-trigger-fails-to-reset-when-gun-is-cold), I shared some issues I was having with my 638. I mentioned that I was using Cylinder and Slides lubrication regimen (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cleaning.shtml). Bill N. remarked that that seemed like too much lube for him.

My intention is to get serious about getting good with a J-frame this year, so I'm trying to get some questions sorted.

1) What is a proper lubrication regimen for a J-Frame?

2) How often should I completely disassemble the gun for cleaning? My plan is to shoot about 600 rounds of standard pressure handloads, and about 100 rounds +P loads a year. I'll likely be using 158 grain plated bullets for the hand loads. I've had it with the lead and lube residue from swaged wadcutters.

3) What's an approximate service life of an aluminium J-Frame? This likely the only firearm I own that I'll shoot to the point of un-serviceability. After how many rounds are they generally done? If that number is say, 5000 rounds (to pick something out of the air) , at 4000 I think I'd just replace it with a new J-Frame, and put the old one in "reserve staus." I'd stash it somewhere securewith a light coat of lube and shoot about 50 rounds a year through it, and use it for pest control with shot loads, stuff like that.

[LSP972]

As you nhave discovered, what bullet you're shooting will pretty much dictate your cleaning regimen.

FWIW, I do mainly jacketed bullets strictly to avoid the mess of plain lead. I wish I had a dollar for every hour I spent struggling to get the "wadcutter ring", caused by shooting dirty .38 special reloads in a .357 cylinder, out of that cylinder. Not to mention that crap gets blown into every nook and cranny, requiring a detail-strip more often, etc. Keep a close eye on those plated bullets, however; some I have used might as well have been plain lead.

600 rounds of standard pressure plus 100 rounds of +P isn't that much, all things considered. You said yours is a M-638-3? That's a 2002 model, first with the lock. More importantly, it is built on the "post-95 frame", with the longer cylinder/frame window, and is rated for +P. The only official figures I know of regarding J frame service life is that S&W guarantees the Ti-Scan magnums to go at least 5000 rounds of full-patch .357.

In my experience, you just never know. My old M-640, 1991 vintage, has had at least 5K rounds through it and is still "good"… but none of that was +P. OTOH, one of the lab managers had a 638-3 split the top strap, just above the flash gap, at less than a thousand rounds. S&W replaced the whole revolver, of course. I've also seen older AirWeights with cracked barrels and worn yokes after not a lot of rounds, But those rounds were either hot handloads or +P ammunition. The pre-95 AirWeights are NOT happy with +P stuff.

The gun will require very little lubrication. Again, it depends on your specific cleaning regimen. I'll give you mine, and you can go from there.

First, while I am quite anal about my carry guns being scrupulously clean, there is a reason I have at least one more identical or near-identical example of my "business" guns (the Katana carbine excepted, for obvious reasons). That's so I can practice, and not worry about rushing home to clean anything. Yes, some people just carry a dirty gun. That is their privilege. But I was once accused of participating in a bad shoot, as a rookie trooper. My squeaky-clean 4" M-66, its equally-spotless 2.5" counterpart in my unit and equally spotless M-37 on my ankle, removed any and all doubt, right there, of whether I had shot or not. Things like that tend to stay with you; IOW, not everybody has your best interests at heart, and the only one you can trust completely is YOU. The municipal officer had no clear justification to shoot the asshole (who needed shooting, but not under those circumstances), his superiors and detectives knew it, and were trying to rope me in to spread the blame. A fine result of aggressively backing up another cop.

But I digress. Having a "training gun" is a good idea on several levels, and I would suggest you consider it.

I'll assume you're working with one revolver here, and that you clean it every time you shoot it. Again, HOW you clean it matters. Do you just brush out the bore and cylinder charge holes, brush the dirty areas in the frame window and cylinder, and call it a day? Or do you remove the cylinder/yoke assembly and detail-clean same? What I'm getting at here pertains to lubrication. If you do indeed remove the cylinder/yoke assembly, then you should re-lube same before re-installing it. Here's how:

The first photo shows the two bearing surfaces on the yoke barrel, indicated by the swab sticks. These are what the cylinder rides on. The second photo shows the point where the front bearing surface begins and ends; the rear bearing surface, which takes most of the load, is quite shiney, at the end of the yoke barrel. These raised portions are rather difficult to see, but they are there. A small drop of OIL on each, just prior to sliding the cylinder in place, is what is called for.

As for the internals; every time you have the sideplate off and clean out that area, one drop of oil on the various studs and pins that the parts rotate or pivot around is sufficient. You can put a drop under the rebound slide as well.

[BN]

I am repeating what I remember from a post by Mike Carmoney on brianenos.com. Mike was the one to go to for action jobs on revolvers until his day job began taking more of his spare time.

He said, and this is from my memory, A drop of oil on the pins, trigger block, etc, then close it up and don't open it again unless it needs repair. Occasionally put a drop or 2 where the cylinder and yoke meet and let it work down into the cylinder. This will help the cylinder spin.

That takes care of #1.

#2: Never. Keep the chambers clean with a copper brush, etc. I have shot seriously with revolver in IDPA, sometimes shooting 20,000 rounds in a years time. I use plated bullets like Berrys, and Bullseye powder. Before each match, I cleaned the chambers with an oversize stainless brush from Brownells, than ran a patch through the chambers, then brushed under the star with a toothbrush. Then I just shot the revolver, including practice, until the next match. What you plan to shoot in a years time is what I have shot in 2 weeks time. :) I was shooting K-Frame S&W revolvers.

#3: I don't know. There is a guy on the M4 Carbine forum that was shooting a J-Frame, I think a 642, a lot, and the last time I looked he was up to 5000 rounds I think. I haven't looked for a while.

I have used Break Free for years and had no problems. Anything other than a light oil will cause problems down the road.

[BN]

Cool, LSP972 and I said almost the same thing in a different way. :)

[LSP972]

Sorry, I didn't finish my thoughts due to #1 grandson barging in asking for some .223 ammo.

Regarding your concerns about longevity, that's another reason to buy a second, identical piece. It seems to be fashionable these days- even by a few on this forum, whom I would have thought knew better- to make fun of Clint Smith's "Two is one, one is none" dictum. Of course, perhaps that ties in with the guys who say they have seventy-eleven thousands of rounds through their AR carbine with no cleaning, just plenty of oil, and all is well. Perhaps. In any event, there is wisdom in that dictum.

The thing about revolver failures is, you rarely get any warning. I'm sorry to say I simply cannot give you any firm idea of your gun's longevity. As noted, there are too many variables at play for that. Your idea re semi-retiring the gun once it hits the four or five thousand round mark is sound; that's what I have done with my 360PD. I still carry it religiously, every day. But I shoot it maybe once a year now, and very few rounds at that. So I agree that is a great idea.

But I'd buy the replacement revolver NOW…;)

.

[L-2]

Some of my thoughts to add:

I've got a 15+ year old 642 which I've been using as a backup gun since I bought it. I didn't keep a round count until recently and I'll estimate 5,000 to 10,000 rounds as best as I can. I thought it might fail at any time due to use & age, but not because I saw any signs of such. July '15, I bought a new 442. At ~2K rounds, the 442 began getting light strikes, intermittently. I hoped it was just a batch of ammo. Last week, at 3300 rounds, it's back at S&W to figure out and fix the problem after shooting three or four different brands of ammo to ensure it wasn't just the ammo.

If there's a moral to the story, just be aware of how any of your guns are running, as a problem could occur at any moment. Having a spare is very nice-to-have.

Here in California, I've got a 10-day waiting period after the DRoS has been done before I can take possession of the gun. Yes, in certain circumstances I can get an approval letter from one of my Captains to waive the waiting period, but that could take just as long to get that letter and I don't need them knowing my business. It's just something else for some of us to consider in getting a spare gun. If one can go to a store, buy, and walk out with a new gun all within an hour, then it's not as big of a problem to get a spare gun right away. I've also got a Glock 43 for a backup, but that's off-topic.

LSP972, that's a great Post #2 up there, with photos too!

[serialsolver]

I learned the hard way. My serious guns are in twos at a minimum. Some are threes or fours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Buckshot]

Part of the determination of when to pop the sideplate has nothing to do with your round count as what conditions does it serve under. Where do you carry the snub? Ankle & pocket guns need internal attention more often than belt carried guns, probably by a factor of 2 or 3:1. When I wore a uniform, I almost fainted the 1st time I pulled the sideplate off my ankle bug - I didn't know you could have dust bunnies inside a J frame!
The lifetime round count is hard to say on alloy Js. In my experience, if you're going to have a frame crack, it'll happen really soon because it is usually caused by a barrel over-torqued at the factory. I once bought a primo 30 year old pinned barrel M38 that cracked within it's 1st 50 rounds of standard pressure ammo. If you subject it to a lot of hot stuff, your frame may likely end up stretching, but that is hard to predict. Most timing issues can be healed just like a steel frame. Maybe 5000 rounds is a fair estimate of life, but with alloy frames, I'd say there is a lifespan variability factor of 50% or more in either direction that isn't so predictable as a steel gun. If you are into alloy J frames and having one at hand 24/7 is an issue, you really need 2 of them.

[deputyG23]

Part of the determination of when to pop the sideplate has nothing to do with your round count as what conditions does it serve under. Where do you carry the snub? Ankle & pocket guns need internal attention more often than belt carried guns, probably by a factor of 2 or 3:1. When I wore a uniform, I almost fainted the 1st time I pulled the sideplate off my ankle bug - I didn't know you could have dust bunnies inside a J frame!
The lifetime round count is hard to say on alloy Js. In my experience, if you're going to have a frame crack, it'll happen really soon because it is usually caused by a barrel over-torqued at the factory. I once bought a primo 30 year old pinned barrel M38 that cracked within it's 1st 50 rounds of standard pressure ammo. If you subject it to a lot of hot stuff, your frame may likely end up stretching, but that is hard to predict. Most timing issues can be healed just like a steel frame. Maybe 5000 rounds is a fair estimate of life, but with alloy frames, I'd say there is a lifespan variability factor of 50% or more in either direction that isn't so predictable as a steel gun. If you are into alloy J frames and having one at hand 24/7 is an issue, you really need 2 of them.

Considering Buckshot's experience with foreign matter inside a J-frame ankle carried BUG, how often should a daily pocket carried 442-2 be opened up and de-linted? That is how my 442 lives.

[LSP972]

Considering Buckshot's experience with foreign matter inside a J-frame ankle carried BUG, how often should a daily pocket carried 442-2 be opened up and de-linted? That is how my 442 lives.

The Centennial J's, as represented by the 442, are actually rather resistant to dust bunny incursion. One of the concerns I had when I took the lock mechanism out of my 360PD was that a horde of pocket lint, etc., would foul the action in very short order, entering through that large open slot next to the hammer. That has not come to pass. I pocket-carry that piece all day, every day. Every other day or so, I brush it off with a old paint brush or a few shots of canned air; depends on which is within reach when I decide to do it. For the first few years, I would remove the sideplate every month, expecting to find a mess in there. Nope. Now, I pop the plate off during its annual go-over. I find very little, if any, foreign matter in there.

That's pocket carry. As Buckshot pointed out, the game changes when you carry the piece on your ankle. It is simply amazing how fungy the piece will get, and how quickly. An ankle-carried gun needs DAILY attention. Cleaning it off every day will reduce the amount of crap that finds its way inside, but that sideplate should still be removed and the internals cleaned/re-lubed every six months, at a minumum, IMO.

.

[Buckshot]

The Centennial J's, as represented by the 442, are actually rather resistant to dust bunny incursion. One of the concerns I had when I took the lock mechanism out of my 360PD was that a horde of pocket lint, etc., would foul the action in very short order, entering through that large open slot next to the hammer. That has not come to pass. I pocket-carry that piece all day, every day. Every other day or so, I brush it off with a old paint brush or a few shots of canned air; depends on which is within reach when I decide to do it. For the first few years, I would remove the sideplate every month, expecting to find a mess in there. Nope. Now, I pop the plate off during its annual go-over. I find very little, if any, foreign matter in there.

That's pocket carry. As Buckshot pointed out, the game changes when you carry the piece on your ankle. It is simply amazing how fungy the piece will get, and how quickly. An ankle-carried gun needs DAILY attention. Cleaning it off every day will reduce the amount of crap that finds its way inside, but that sideplate should still be removed and the internals cleaned/re-lubed every six months, at a minumum, IMO.

.

I agree in toto - I'd say every 6 mos FIRM if you ankle carry 40+ hours a week & don't spend all your time at a desk. And don't just peel that irritating rig off your ankle at EOS & leave it in the leather - wipe it down!

[deputyG23]

The Centennial J's, as represented by the 442, are actually rather resistant to dust bunny incursion. One of the concerns I had when I took the lock mechanism out of my 360PD was that a horde of pocket lint, etc., would foul the action in very short order, entering through that large open slot next to the hammer. That has not come to pass. I pocket-carry that piece all day, every day. Every other day or so, I brush it off with a old paint brush or a few shots of canned air; depends on which is within reach when I decide to do it. For the first few years, I would remove the sideplate every month, expecting to find a mess in there. Nope. Now, I pop the plate off during its annual go-over. I find very little, if any, foreign matter in there.

That's pocket carry. As Buckshot pointed out, the game changes when you carry the piece on your ankle. It is simply amazing how fungy the piece will get, and how quickly. An ankle-carried gun needs DAILY attention. Cleaning it off every day will reduce the amount of crap that finds its way inside, but that sideplate should still be removed and the internals cleaned/re-lubed every six months, at a minumum, IMO.

.
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I wipe it off with a silicone cloth 1 to 2x a week and brush the chambers and barrel out with a Glock cleaning rod/brush.
I am hoping to supplement this gun by year's end with a no lock 442 for carry and use the 442-2 for dry fire and live practice.

[Lester Polfus]

Thanks everyone, especially you LSP972. You're a gem man.

I think its reasonable to budget for another J-Frame. It wouldn't be the end of the world if it broke, as I've got other guns to run, but they do fill a niche very nicely.

At one point in my life, I would have been excited by the thought of buying another gun, but now its just another damn thing to do. At least I don't have to buy a bunch of holsters and accessories for it.

[41magfan]

I'm fairy anal about gun maintenance as it's one of the few variables that I have total control over. It only takes a few seconds to "dust off" my carry guns everyday with an old shave brush.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/903/6Pi0kc.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p36Pi0kcj)

[LSP972]

At one point in my life, I would have been excited by the thought of buying another gun, but now its just another damn thing to do.

I know, right?

You realize you've passed a milestone when your wife, out of ideas for an Xmas present and just wanting to get it over with, tells you "Okay, let's go to Jim's (local huge candy store) and you can pick out what you want."

And you think about it for a minute, and say "Nah."

[camsdaddy]

I've never considered wearing out a J frame. I am in the process of the beginning to reload and have intentions of shooting mine a lot more. I guess I now have a goal. I clean after each visit. I figure with an airweight I would wear out my hand before I wore out the gun.

[LSP972]

I figure with an airweight I would wear out my hand before I wore out the gun.

Maybe. And maybe not.

The post-'95 J frames SHOULD be more durable than the pre-'95s. But I've seen more gooned-up examples of the former than of the latter. And almost all of the gooned-up pre-'95 guns were victims of "hot ammo".

Bottom line: if you stick with the so-called "mid-range" loadings- basically, a 148-158 grain bullet at 700 or so fps- the gun should indeed outlast your hand. Keep in mind, revolvers are tailor-made for light loads that are kind to your hand. The only thing to watch out for there is what- and how much - powder you use. Trail Boss is probably the best for this, as it was designed to produce light loads while filling up the case volume. But there are any number of suitable powders that will lessen the risk of detonation, which can occur when you have a small amount of powder in a large space.

What happens there is this: the small amount of powder lies alongside the case wall, instead of being packed up against the web (inside of the case head), the jet from the primer flashes over the powder and, instead of the powder burning at its design rate, it ignites all at once and explodes instead of burning. There are people who say this is so much bullshit, and point to the long-time use of the classic 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder under a 148gr wadcutter. True, zillions upon zillions of this combination have been fired by cops and PPC competitors over many decades without incident. Also true is that there have been a few blown guns because of it; some of them rather spectacular.

So, one can believe it or not. I believe it, for I have seen the evidence. All of this is probably more than you were looking for, so sorry about that. But its something every reloader should be aware of.

.

[camsdaddy]

Well last night I made my first bullets. The first are 158 LSWC over 3.5 and tonight I hope to load 148 lwc over 2.8 (auto disk doesn't show 2.7) bullseye. I will look into trail boss next

[Lester Polfus]

I bought 4 pounds of Titegroup during the ammo panic because it was about the only handgun powder I could find. I really don't like it very much. Detonation concerns aside, I really don't like the fact that I could double, or even triple charge a .38 case and still seat the bullet. In the past I've always worked with powders that were essentially impossible to double charge as they'd spill out of the case, giving me the clue.

Also, I loaded 250 rounds of 148 grain HBWC, and I'm done with that. That's such a classic load I figured I should do it once, and I was very pleased at the accuracy, but good Lord the leading...

[LSP972]

Well last night I made my first bullets. The first are 158 LSWC over 3.5 and tonight I hope to load 148 lwc over 2.8 (auto disk doesn't show 2.7) bullseye. I will look into trail boss next

That 158/3.5 load should be quite pleasant, and more accurate (assuming the bullets are well-made) than you can hold.

Also, 231 is one of the best general-purpose handgun powders extant. Its also hard to find due to its popularity; that's one reason I shifted to WST some years back. But in my experience, WST doesn't do so hot in mid-range .38 loadings. Maybe I didn't experiment enough..

.

[LSP972]

I bought 4 pounds of Titegroup during the ammo panic because it was about the only handgun powder I could find. I really don't like it very much. ...

Neither me. Its dirty, for one thing. I'm told it does great in upper-range loads, but I'm all about mild these days.

.

[jh9]

Neither me. Its dirty, for one thing. I'm told it does great in upper-range loads, but I'm all about mild these days.

.

My goto load with titegroup for IDPA before they lowered the power floor was either 4.4 or 4.5 grains. In order to make power floor I had to use over book max for +P data. Granted it was over by .1 grains, but still. I checked with another guy also shooting SSR and using titegroup and his experience matched mine.

For reference in the same gun (686-5) I'll make PF with a standard pressure charge of Unique (granted, 4.7 is maximum for standard pressure, but still standard).

You can almost fit THREE charges of that +P+ dose in a .38 case. A double charge is easy to miss...

Titegroup is not a good .38 powder.

[NEPAKevin]

Titegroup is not a good .38 powder.

Maybe I have girly hands, but I quit using Titegroup for 38 loads because it seemed like at practice, after the second reload, I could hardly hold the cylinder to insert the speed loader it was so freaking hot. I switched to American Select and no more fried fingers. Have heard that Clays is another good choice.

[Lester Polfus]

I have also found that my J frame heats up more than it seems like it should, especially considering how light of a charge I'm using. I'm wondering if that's one of the reasons I'm getting so much leading.

[jh9]

Maybe I have girly hands, but I quit using Titegroup for 38 loads because it seemed like at practice, after the second reload, I could hardly hold the cylinder to insert the speed loader it was so freaking hot. I switched to American Select and no more fried fingers. Have heard that Clays is another good choice.

Oh yeah. Try being left handed. :p

When I was using titegroup I would usually leave an IDPA match with a bunch of little quarter moon burns/blisters on the web of my right hand since every reload meant punching the right thumb through the frame window and letting the forcing cone fall on the web of my right hand so I could work the ejector with my right hand pointer finger. Titegroup is a fast burning powder, and that forcing cone gets hot.

Nowhere near as bad with Unique or American Select (the latter in short colt brass for USPSA).

[LSP972]

Maybe I have girly hands, but I quit using Titegroup for 38 loads because it seemed like at practice, after the second reload, I could hardly hold the cylinder to insert the speed loader it was so freaking hot.

YES!!!

Me too.

.

[LSP972]

I have also found that my J frame heats up more than it seems like it should, especially considering how light of a charge I'm using. I'm wondering if that's one of the reasons I'm getting so much leading.

I think the stuff just burns hotter than "normal". But if your bullets are soft, the bases could indeed be melting. And brother, that will cause leading faster than cat can lick… well, you know.:cool:

.

[LSP552]

I bought 4 pounds of Titegroup during the ammo panic because it was about the only handgun powder I could find. I really don't like it very much.

Yep. I have a couple pounds of Titegroup and keep hoping to find someone who wants it bad enough to trade me some Win 231 or HP38......

[Lester Polfus]

I think the stuff just burns hotter than "normal". But if your bullets are soft, the bases could indeed be melting. And brother, that will cause leading faster than cat can lick… well, you know.:cool:

.

I'm using Hornady 148 Grain HBWCs. I don't have a Brinell tester, but I can mark them pretty easy, so I'm guessing they are pretty soft. I just loaded up the last of them last night. I should have experimented with some of the CFE pistol I have to see if I get less leading.

[LSP972]

I'm using Hornady 148 Grain HBWCs. I don't have a Brinell tester, but I can mark them pretty easy, so I'm guessing they are pretty soft. I just loaded up the last of them last night. I should have experimented with some of the CFE pistol I have to see if I get less leading.

Yup, those bullets are swaged… IOW, just a notch above pure lead. Do they still have the full-length knurling on the bearing surface, instead of driving bands and grease grooves?

.

[Lester Polfus]

Yup, those bullets are swaged… IOW, just a notch above pure lead. Do they still have the full-length knurling on the bearing surface, instead of driving bands and grease grooves?

.

They do, and they have some kind of film lubricant all over them.

I can now check the box next to "I've loaded the classic .38 Special wadcutter load," and move on to other things. They are bitch to use with speedloaders and strips. I'm going to stick with 158 SWC's from now on, probably plated.

[LSP972]

The SWCs aren't much better in regards to reloading the gun at speed. Round nose is the best here, and if you're carrying some kind of jacketed hollow point with a sloped ogive, would be the way to go. If you're carrying lead SWCs, then yes, SWC practice solids would make sense.

I would look into "coated" bullets. The "plated" examples, mainly Berry's and Rainier, have gotten stupid in their prices.

Basically, you've got two kinds of 'coating'. Most common is some form of molybdenum/graphite, noted by their black color. This works great (provided that the bullets are cast from medium-hard alloy), but is messy… incredibly messy… while assembling cartridges. Wear nitrile gloves when handling them.

The other type is some form of dry lube, as found on Bayou Bullets. Donnie Miculek, Jerry's brother, came up with this. We're pretty tight, yet he would never divulge exactly what it is. He has since sold the company, but the guy who bought it and is now producing the bullets was a long-time employee of his, so he knows what he's doing.

Included in this is powder coating, offered by several firms. I've never used any , but I'm told they are excellent.

.

[BN]

The other type is some form of dry lube, as found on Bayou Bullets. Donnie Miculek, Jerry's brother, came up with this. We're pretty tight, yet he would never divulge exactly what it is. He has since sold the company, but the guy who bought it and is now producing the bullets was a long-time employee of his, so he knows what he's doing.

Included in this is powder coating, offered by several firms. I've never used any , but I'm told they are excellent..

I've been using Bayou bullets almost exclusively for a good while. I've probably fired over 20,000 in 9mm, mostly through Glocks, and about 1000 through various 38 specials. I'm using Titegroup in the 9mm and I clean my Glocks every July, whether they need it or not. I have some of the 138 wadcutters in 38 and the 200 or so rounds I've fired have done well.

[Lester Polfus]

Sweet. I'm going to have to give those a try. They even have a 135gr round nose to match my Gold Dots.

Thanks gents.