LEM Gurus a little help please

[The Apprentice]

So I was woundering if anyone has a video on how the manipulate the trigger and could post it. I have read through the threads and really dont quite understand how to treat the secound shot. The first I think I get I just pull it like I would any other DA. Subsequent shots I try to reset under recoil but if I try to just pull through from there I'm all over but if I take up the slack and squeeze I shoot much better. Thanks

[GJM]

So I was woundering if anyone has a video on how the manipulate the trigger and could post it. I have read through the threads and really dont quite understand how to treat the secound shot. The first I think I get I just pull it like I would any other DA. Subsequent shots I try to reset under recoil but if I try to just pull through from there I'm all over but if I take up the slack and squeeze I shoot much better. Thanks

Since Darryl is busy at SHOT, YVK is out of the country, and Jody out cruising in his new Tundra, I will take a stab at this. What has worked for me, is to say out loud "law enforcement modification" between shots. :)

[CCT125US]

Please forgive GJM, he has a love / hate relationship with the LEM.
I roll right through the wall. I reset in recoil in the sense that the slack is being taken up, and when the sights settle I can break the shot. I do keep contact with the trigger (because coming off would allow one to yell "law enforcement modification")

Try this for working the trigger at speed.
With the pistol unloaded, and no ammo present, in a designated dry fire area, place a rubber band between the breach face and barrel hood. This allows you to work the trigger without cycling the slide. Practice running the trigger while keeping the sights aligned on target. 5583

[GJM]

While I don't think there is just one right way, CCT makes an excellent point about a technique that minimizes trigger travel. Conversely, if you flip and press with the LEM, you get the same long travel on successive shots you get on shot one.

I was just looking for a reason to say law enforcement modification, as for years I thought is was law enforcement module.

[The Apprentice]

Cool trick with the rubber band thanks. GJM when you are say "law enforcement modification" is it said like Frank Costanza "serenity now" or more of a daily affirmation

[Mr_White]

I don't know if GJM is going to get the Seinfeld reference, I don't think he watches a lot of TV. One show he does watch though, is Quantico, in order to research cutting edge law enforcement TTPs and equipment.

[breakingtime91]

I treat it like any other trigger.. press through shot, reset, press through shot and try not to fuck it up.

[SecondsCount]

I treat it like any other trigger.. press through shot, reset, press through shot and try not to fuck it up.

This. Don't concentrate so much on the feel of the trigger, just accelerate through the bump.

[breakingtime91]

This. Don't concentrate so much on the feel of the trigger, just accelerate through the bump.

I think the lem is a great trigger. not heavy, not light, but smooth until a predictable wall. Press through wall like any other trigger, reset, press. People emphasis triggers and feel way to much, like SC said to me on the phone the other day, you can overcome them.

[CCT125US]

Cool trick with the rubber band thanks.
I also find it allows you to uncover any sympathetic movement in the hand. Experiment with an adequate release vs. hitting the inside front of the trigger guard with your trigger finger. Notice how the gun moves and what muscle tension occurs in your hand. Realize that movement translates into live fire but is masked by recoil.

[Casual Friday]

Definitely not a LEM guru here since I've only been working with my new P2000 for a couple weeks but good things happen when I do what CCT125US suggested by rolling through without stopping.

[The Apprentice]

Ok so to clarify after the first shot if I reset under recoil I tend to shoot past the reset point a bit and what Im looking for clarification on is are you guys just pulling straight through from there or are you taking up the slack to the wall and pulling straight through from there. I tend to shoot better when I take up the slack but I'm a beginner at this and if its something I should correct I want to address it before it becomes to much of a training scare.

[YVK]

It depends on the difficulty of a shot. If it is an open target, I run through the trigger travel. It is a harder shot, I will run through the takeup but manipulate trigger more carefully once I get to the bump. I try to never stop applying the pressure although from the outside it may seem like I do on harder targets.
I shoot LEM as if I shoot a Glock with a huge takeup. My personal experience is that treating LEM like a DA on each and every target is one of the worst mistakes with this trigger.

[JodyH]

^^ do this ^^. YVK saved me some phone tapping.

[Dagga Boy]

No need to type....YVK nailed it.

[breakingtime91]

No need to type....YVK nailed it.

Yup

[gtmtnbiker98]

It depends on the difficulty of a shot. If it is an open target, I run through the trigger travel. It is a harder shot, I will run through the takeup but manipulate trigger more carefully once I get to the bump. I try to never stop applying the pressure although from the outside it may seem like I do on harder targets.
I shoot LEM as if I shoot a Glock with a huge takeup. My personal experience is that treating LEM like a DA on each and every target is one of the worst mistakes with this trigger.This is how I work the trigger and train my department. We are issued the P30 V1 9mm, and the above described method works.

[The Apprentice]

Thanks this clear things up kind of makes sense to treat it differently depending on the situation. Let the dry fire continue.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks this clear things up kind of makes sense to treat it differently depending on the situation. Let the dry fire continue.IMO, just about the only way to learn LEM is via live fire. Dry firing doesn't quite teach the reset unless you have somebody running the slide.

[LSP972]

IMO, just about the only way to learn LEM is via live fire. Dry firing doesn't quite teach the reset unless you have somebody running the slide.

Totally agree. I first saw the LEM in 2004, when a pal scored one of the FFDO pistols HK was selling to bona fide commercial pilots. Like most, I was rather unimpressed at first; but after I got a couple of hundred rounds through it (I shot it that much at my pal's insistence- otherwise I would stayed a Glock-o-phile), the light dawned.

I've been Glock-free, more or less, ever since.;)

.

[kehowell]

Please forgive GJM, he has a love / hate relationship with the LEM.
I roll right through the wall. I reset in recoil in the sense that the slack is being taken up, and when the sights settle I can break the shot. I do keep contact with the trigger (because coming off would allow one to yell "law enforcement modification")

Try this for working the trigger at speed.
With the pistol unloaded, and no ammo present, in a designated dry fire area, place a rubber band between the breach face and barrel hood. This allows you to work the trigger without cycling the slide. Practice running the trigger while keeping the sights aligned on target. 5583

I just bought my very first pistol yesterday and on the advice of MANY LEOs I chose the H&K P2000 LEM. I have yet to fire it but will be reading through all of this. THANKS for the great tips & techniques.

[Vinh]

I'm going to go against the grain here. I've always treated the LEM trigger like a single-action trigger. Take out slack, press. Same after the reset. Sometimes I get lucky and the rotation of the earth moves the target into the path of the bullet.

[The Apprentice]

I know I really need to live fire but I'm on a 6/10 shift and its cold so for the nexts couple weeks I dont think I'll be getting to the range to much. I might have a window on sunday we'll see. The good thing is lots of overtime means lots of money and money can be turned into ammo.

[HCM]

It depends on the difficulty of a shot. If it is an open target, I run through the trigger travel. It is a harder shot, I will run through the takeup but manipulate trigger more carefully once I get to the bump. I try to never stop applying the pressure although from the outside it may seem like I do on harder targets.
I shoot LEM as if I shoot a Glock with a huge takeup. My personal experience is that treating LEM like a DA on each and every target is one of the worst mistakes with this trigger.

Spent 8 years with an LEM as my duty and primary off duty gun. this ^^^^ is what worked for me.

[jc000]

I'm going to go against the grain here. I've always treated the LEM trigger like a single-action trigger. Take out slack, press. Same after the reset. Sometimes I get lucky and the rotation of the earth moves the target into the path of the bullet.

+1 I do as well. Maybe that's why I suck and my HK hates me. :(

[rdtompki]

This thread is timely. I have two 9mm P2000 LEM, a v1 and a v2. I bought these in prep for my CCW license (shoot 9mm 1911s in competition), but thanks to the local jail messing up my Livescan I'm still 6 months off from a permit. I do have a defensive pistol class in 6 weeks so I've got to get to practicing. Almost coincident with this thread I've decided to put the V1 back into V2 configuration. Two reason: 1)technically can't make that sort of "mod" to a CCW pistol and 2)I think the slightly heavier wall makes more sense in terms of the overall concept.

I've got maybe 300 rounds through the gun and really like everything about it, but per my understanding of all the good input, above, it's a trigger you want to roll through and I want the wall at the second spring to be high enough so I can feel it. It's a longish trigger which is easy to overshoot going to reset and I want to be able to get to that wall fast without a risk of inadvertently breaking the shot. Anyway, that's my impression as someone who is completely spoiled by a very good 1911 trigger.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm a LEM novice obviously.

[Dagga Boy]

This thread is timely. I have two 9mm P2000 LEM, a v1 and a v2. I bought these in prep for my CCW license (shoot 9mm 1911s in competition), but thanks to the local jail messing up my Livescan I'm still 6 months off from a permit. I do have a defensive pistol class in 6 weeks so I've got to get to practicing. Almost coincident with this thread I've decided to put the V1 back into V2 configuration. Two reason: 1)technically can't make that sort of "mod" to a CCW pistol and 2)I think the slightly heavier wall makes more sense in terms of the overall concept.

I've got maybe 300 rounds through the gun and really like everything about it, but per my understanding of all the good input, above, it's a trigger you want to roll through and I want the wall at the second spring to be high enough so I can feel it. It's a longish trigger which is easy to overshoot going to reset and I want to be able to get to that wall fast without a risk of inadvertently breaking the shot. Anyway, that's my impression as someone who is completely spoiled by a very good 1911 trigger.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm a LEM novice obviously.

I find learning on the V2 works well and then putting in the factory V1 components minus the trigger return spring for what is often called the TLG trigger. Lighter than V2 with a positive trigger push on reset.

[HCM]

This thread is timely. I have two 9mm P2000 LEM, a v1 and a v2. Almost coincident with this thread I've decided to put the V1 back into V2 configuration. Two reason: 1)technically can't make that sort of "mod" to a CCW pistol


When you Technically that sort of mod to a CCW pistol are you talking about liability concerns a la - Mas Ayoob ? There is no such legal requirement I'm aware of even in CA.

The V1 and V2 are both factory configurations and neither is a match or competition trigger configuration and there are LE agencies in the U.S. issuing HK LEM V1 guns so I would not have any liability concerns.

The V4 / TLG set up NYETI mentioned above would be my choice. HK does the V4 for LEA orders and the V4.1 ( similar but with short reset) for European LE sales. The U.S. Border Patrol BORTAC agents are currently using P30L LEMs with the V4 trigger.

[The Apprentice]

I like the v4 or v2 the bump in the v1 throws me off.

[JDB]

The V4 / TLG set up NYETI mentioned above would be my choice. HK does the V4 for LEA orders and the V4.1 ( similar but with short reset) for European LE sales. The U.S. Border Patrol BORTAC agents are currently using P30L LEMs with the V4 trigger.

does the 4.1 have shorter reset, or shorter pre-travel (initial take up)? I thought it was the latter, and the reset stayed the same.

[HCM]

does the 4.1 have shorter reset, or shorter pre-travel (initial take up)? I thought it was the latter, and the reset stayed the same.

You are correct - shorter pre travel. The 4.1 parts are supposed to be available in the U.S. soon, if they are not already.

[YVK]

I find learning on the V2 works well and then putting...

This is about what I do. I find that setting the gun up for a heavy pull weight helps developing trigger control. This is a general position, be them HKs, Berettas or 1911s, and I put heaviest springs in my guns periodically for both live and dry fire, several weeks at a time. This is stolen from Gabe's playbook who used to work with 10+ lbs Glock triggers. Some stupendous gamers do this too.

However, for everyday carry and games I set mine for absolutely the lightest pull that still reliably ignites primers. I've tested all possible combinations of springs, for heavier takeup, heavier wall, stronger reset and my times and hits have universally been better with lightest trigger pull. I can see it especially clearly when working at 25 yards. I know it is not too original but it is what it is. So this is what I do.

[rdtompki]

.....However, for everyday carry and games I set mine for absolutely the lightest pull that still reliably ignites primers. I've tested all possible combinations of springs, for heavier takeup, heavier wall, stronger reset and my times and hits have universally been better with lightest trigger pull. I can see it especially clearly when working at 25 yards. I know it is not too original but it is what it is. So this is what I do.
I'd love to do this; our 9mm 1911s are all 3 lb. triggers and could be lower but we're not good enough to take full advantage in competition. Unfortunately, we live in California so any trigger modification is grounds for having one's CCW revoked and we have no protection against civil suit in a self-defense situation even if the actual is ruled to be justifiable; trigger modifications would be the first thing the plaintiff's lawyer would go after. We are moving to Idaho end of this year and life will be better.

Logically, the need for the best tool probably outweighs the potential downside of a modified trigger, but we're very paranoid in CA.

[Dagga Boy]

You are correct - shorter pre travel. The 4.1 parts are supposed to be available in the U.S. soon, if they are not already.

I plan on putting this in my P30L's with the LEM's and Ambi safety's. Should be nice in those guns.

[LSP972]

When you Technically that sort of mod to a CCW pistol are you talking about liability concerns a la - Mas Ayoob ? There is no such legal requirement I'm aware of even in CA.




Right; but it can become an issue in the civil proceedings that follow a shooting. Case in point; a deputy I know personally was involved in a wrongful death deal. Absolutely no ill intent on his part; he got bit by the flex/reflex monster, and the decedent contributed to his demise by being a dumbass. The grand jury quickly returned a No True Bill decision.

But that "skimmer" trigger in his G34 added another zero to the check his agency will be writing to the decedent's family. Because of a semi-savvy plaintiff's attorney.

So, I am NOT dissing the HK system, or any system, in this regard. I AM saying don't dismiss such concerns as fanciful… trust me, they are real.

.

[Dagga Boy]

Right; but it can become an issue in the civil proceedings that follow a shooting. Case in point; a deputy I know personally was involved in a wrongful death deal. Absolutely no ill intent on his part; he got bit by the flex/reflex monster, and the decedent contributed to his demise by being a dumbass. The grand jury quickly returned a No True Bill decision.

But that "skimmer" trigger in his G34 added another zero to the check his agency will be writing to the decedent's family. Because of a semi-savvy plaintiff's attorney.

So, I am NOT dissing the HK system, or any system, in this regard. I AM saying don't dismiss such concerns as fanciful… trust me, they are real.

.

If it is the case I am thinking of, they were lucky to get a no bill and only one zero. In another part of the country, it could have been far worse.

[The Apprentice]

So I managed to make it to the range and run through around 200 rounds, kept it simple did a bunch of press outs from high ready and fire 2. First shot for the most part was right on but there was a fair amount of el snatcho on the follow up. While I was at the range I wanted to run a few rounds through my p-07 cause I had swapped some springs, which was a bad idea. I knew that it probably would be so I saved 100 to shoot after the CZ. The second round with the hk started of very ugly so I went back to basics and finished off just doing ball and dummy which helped a lot. It did lead to a lot of dry fire I think out of the last 50 or so rounds of ball and dummy I ended up with 300 or so dry fires but I managed to keep the last 50 on the 3 of a dot torture target at 5 yards. Going forward I'm swearing off my other guns at least until after the end of October and my covert carry class with Mike Pannone. Thanks for all the help.

[Dagga Boy]

It sounds like you are having an issue many do with the LEM. You are shooting with slack in the trigger. When you get to the end of the "movement" of the trigger, this is where the real slack is and needs to be taken up before you get into the actual working parts. Same with the reset, you need to get the little bit of slack out as these guns do not have the short reset right at the break many pistols do. It takes some time to get used to.
I have found in actual shooting and crisis events tactile feel diminishes and visual acuity increases. All the movement in the LEM, along with the ability to see the trigger press in the hammer movement is all beneficial in a LE type encounter, but not as much so when working a planned shooting event (drills, training, and sport). As many have shown, it can be mastered,but its a time and practice thing.

[HCM]

Right; but it can become an issue in the civil proceedings that follow a shooting. Case in point; a deputy I know personally was involved in a wrongful death deal. Absolutely no ill intent on his part; he got bit by the flex/reflex monster, and the decedent contributed to his demise by being a dumbass. The grand jury quickly returned a No True Bill decision.

But that "skimmer" trigger in his G34 added another zero to the check his agency will be writing to the decedent's family. Because of a semi-savvy plaintiff's attorney.

So, I am NOT dissing the HK system, or any system, in this regard. I AM saying don't dismiss such concerns as fanciful… trust me, they are real.

.

True but the V1 and V4 are factory parts in service in issued LE guns and sold by the factory for Duty / carry use.

They are not the same as an aftermarket trigger or even the same as a factory / trigger part like a 3.5 lb Glock Minus connector set up which the factory specifically recommends for Competition use only. I would not recommend either of those for the exact reasons you cite.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. A better comparison for the LEM V1/V2/V4 would be between a standard 5.5lb Glock trigger vs an 8lb NY trigger vs a Minus connector /NY spring combo whic reults in a "full weight" / 5.5 lb trigger with a different feel..

[GJM]

I think a Glock OEM minus is more like 4.5 in a Gen. 3 and 5 in s Gen 4.

[HCM]

I think a Glock OEM minus is more like 4.5 in a Gen. 3 and 5 in s Gen 4.

Just like the standard Gen 4's are really more like 6.5-7lb. The point is they are factory configurations with factory pull weights. Glock specifically warns against using minus connectors in LE Duty Guns. In fact Glock Blue label 34's and 35's come with standard connectors unless its and agency purchase and the agency signs a waiver for the "-".

I would carry an LEM V1, V2 or V4 for work but I wouldn't carry an LEM Match hybrid.

[eyemahm]

I would carry an LEM V1, V2 or V4 for work but I wouldn't carry an LEM Match hybrid.

Agreed.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to carry a true match LEM hybrid, given the match hammer spring reliability issues, but my understanding is that carrying a USP with the LEM version of the USP tactical trigger is OK.

HKs approach to this, based on my conversations with the head armorer at HK USA is that some, but not all, match parts are ok for duty. Basically the ones that don't change safety values or affect reliability are ok. In other words, the match parts on the USP TACTICAL (rather self evidently designed as a duty gun) are good to go, namely, the match trigger itself, nickel sear spring and match TRS.

The match hammer spring and TDA hammer are not (match hybrid LEM has same hammer as regular lem), due to ignition issues and reduced engagement values, respectively.

This said, personally, the only match part I'm likely to add to my next plain jane HK LEM is the nickel sear spring. Imho, juice isn't worth the squeeze for the rest.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Do any of you guys have input on the effect of the nickel flat spring in a LEM gun?

I'm about to that mark where I'm inclined to detail strip my HKs and considering swapping these in when I do. Currently have 2x P2000 and a P30, all TLG configuration.

On the topic, I really resonate with what Nyeti said about the visual indicator of the hammer movement. I learned to pay attention to it shooting TDA, with my press outs, and I have found that experience incredibly rewarding while acclimating to the LEM.


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[The Apprentice]

I have the nickel spring in my v4 p2000 I cant tell much of a difference. The gun was originally a v3 and it did make a differance in the da pull I think most of triggers movment has already taken place in the lem so the amount of friction against that bearing surface is negligible.

[YVK]

On the topic, I really resonate with what Nyeti said about the visual indicator of the hammer movement. I learned to pay attention to it shooting TDA...

This is a concept that's completely foreign to me. When I present a pistol on target, my vision focus is nowhere near where I can see hammer movement. Maybe Darryl can speak to this.

In regards to other discussed aspects, my GGI triggers are barely above 4 lbs. In tens of thousands live rounds fired, I've not had an ND of a "premature discharge type" once. I used to have those every six months with 5.5 lbs Glock triggers. That mile long takeup counts for something, imo.

[Dagga Boy]

This is a concept that's completely foreign to me. When I present a pistol on target, my vision focus is nowhere near where I can see hammer movement. Maybe Darryl can speak to this.

In regards to other discussed aspects, my GGI triggers are barely above 4 lbs. In tens of thousands live rounds fired, I've not had an ND of a "premature discharge type" once. I used to have those every six months with 5.5 lbs Glock triggers. That mile long takeup counts for something, imo.

This is the big difference in how we are training and what we are training for. The hammer concept is something I picked up on during a few incidents where I had made a decision to shoot on a felon and the situation changed enough during the trigger press that I ended up not shooting. In each of these cases I remember clearly seeing the hammer moving with both revolvers and DA autos. In these cases you are assessing threat to the bitter end (which is why these did not end up as shootings) and your vision is constantly changing where and what you are focusing on, along with a huge increase in acuity. Also...after you shoot every round you are also assessing, which requires focus change. You will pick the hammer movement in this. Also, after noting this I checked with several folks who were in a lot of shootings in the revolver days and they confirmed the same thing.

I look at most guns as a use of force tool, and firearms training as an application of lethal level force. That was a change I made a long time ago from "shooting" as my focus, to correct application of force. There is a big difference. We steal a lot from the folks who focus on the micro part of the equation when the gun goes bang, but things are not always compatible. I am always trying to get more efficient and better "shooting", but it always is secondary to the proper application of lethal force as my primary concern. The LEM is one of those things that pure shooters will never really "get". For folks like me, the LEM negatives are often a non-issue in the people management arena. For those focused elsewhere, a different trigger system is better. When you are trying to focus on shooting speed, you will likely not pick up hammer movement. When you are focusing on assessment speed you can. Also, as a fail-safe for those who are over focused on the target and what is going on and may be pressing a trigger out of fear rather than an articulable threat that rises to the lethal force level, it is a small indicator in the vision plane where they can go "why is that moving"?, and stop pressing.

As far as trigger weight premature discharge ND's....we induced a bunch of these in our last close quarters shooting class, so this is a real issue. If we can get solid shooters to do it on the range....it absolutely happens in the field. It is why I do not use a press out with the trigger working. With that said, I will be playing with the "micro press out" GJM discusses elsewhere (although we may already be doing it without naming it).

[Mike C]

I have the nickel spring in my v4 p2000 I cant tell much of a difference. The gun was originally a v3 and it did make a differance in the da pull I think most of triggers movment has already taken place in the lem so the amount of friction against that bearing surface is negligible.

I will second the above with one exception. The only time I really notice a difference with the nickel plated spring is when I am running a V1. When using the flat nickel spring in conjunction with a V1 setup it reduces the more pronounced wall you feel just before breaking a shot. This is a good thing if you like a rolling break, bad if you get on a trigger too soon as it makes it really easy to roll right the the trigger press and send one down range if you get on the trigger to quickly.

Edited to add:
I am also using a 10 lbs spring from an HK vendor with the V1 I run for IDPA and USPSA so that also plays a part in reducing the wall.

[Cecil Burch]

This is a concept that's completely foreign to me. When I present a pistol on target, my vision focus is nowhere near where I can see hammer movement. Maybe Darryl can speak to this.


The way it has been working for me since Darryl gave me the face to face tutorial in October is that I am very vaguely picking up the hammer in my peripheral vision. Not with the focus that I can clearly see it, but get more an "impression" of movement. It worked well for me in Tom Givens Combative Pistol 1 class.

[CCT125US]

This is a concept that's completely foreign to me. When I present a pistol on target, my vision focus is nowhere near where I can see hammer movement.

For me, with very cold digits or gloved hands, it provides visual feedback / awareness that the trigger is being pressed.

[YVK]

You can see the sights with clarity sufficient to call a shot and see hammer movement preceding it by fraction of a second?
I am away from my guns, will look into it when I am home.

[Dagga Boy]

For me, with very cold digits or gloved hands, it provides visual feedback / awareness that the trigger is being pressed.

Shot my P2000 all day today. Fairly cold, no gloves and a long sleeve t-shirt. My arthritis was killing me, so again a bit of a visual on the hammer was good. Again, I am not looking at the hammer, I am watching sight track, but I still pick it up in my peripheral. Also, I shoot with one eye, which may make a difference.

[rdtompki]

I find learning on the V2 works well and then putting in the factory V1 components minus the trigger return spring for what is often called the TLG trigger. Lighter than V2 with a positive trigger push on reset.
I was able to get some practice in after putting the stock V2 TRS spring back in my V1 P2000 LEM. While I don't think I could run the H&K in steel challenge quite as fast as my 9mm 1911, I really like the H&K trigger. Since there are no double taps in steel challenge the fastest transition for someone slow like myself would be .4 or .5 seconds. That's plenty of time to reset, move to and through the "wall" and then break the shot when on target. The beauty of the long trigger is that you can keep it moving without an AD because your software knows the location at which the shot will break.

This is exactly the opposite of the 1911 trigger which is totally based on pressure, the trigger not moving at all before the shot breaks. Much easier for me to handle two triggers with complete different operation than two triggers with like operation, but different TPW, different "creep", etc. That being said the first shot with the 1911 immediately after shooting the H&K requires some caution:).