Micro press out

[GJM]

I am starting this thread to discuss something my wife, Mr_White and I all independently started doing. We are doing a classic index draw, but have started working the trigger in about the last three inches of decelerating the pistol. This seems to alleviate anticipation greatly. For me, it makes the draw to the two inch dot something I need to work to screw up, rather than work to make happen. It used to be, I found shooting dots to be very fatiguing, and my performance on the draw would go down as I shot more of them in a session. Now, with the micro press out, I find that kind of shooting to be much less fatiguing. The benefit might be largely pyschological.

[MGW]

Subscribed to see where this goes. I just recently started working on learning the press out so I'm really interested in this.


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[SLG]

I am starting this thread to discuss something my wife, Mr_White and I all independently started doing. We are doing a classic index draw, but have started working the trigger in about the last three inches of decelerating the pistol. This seems to alleviate anticipation greatly. For me, it makes the draw to the two inch dot something I need to work to screw up, rather than work to make happen. It used to be, I found shooting dots to be very fatiguing, and my performance on the draw would go down as I shot more of them in a session. Now, with the micro press out, I find that kind of shooting to be much less fatiguing. The benefit might be largely pyschological.

Cats and dogs living together!

Removing anticipation is one of the big benefits of a press out. Call it micro if you like, next you'll only be carrying and shooting one gun!

[ubervic]

Interesting.

GJM, methinks that you currently run a Beretta (TDA?).
Kindly verify the trigger system in question for this 'micro press-out,' as working the trigger as described may be more suitable for certain triggers than others.

[GJM]

Interesting.

GJM, methinks that you currently run a Beretta (TDA?).
Kindly verify the trigger system in question for this 'micro press-out,' as working the trigger as described may be more suitable for certain triggers than others.

Gabe and my wife are doing it with a Glock. I am routinely doing it with a CZ Shadow and P229. Today, I was doing it with the PPS I was checking out. I am pretty sure it is applicable to DA/SA and striker, not sure about a 1911.

[breakingtime91]

Video, my stupid brain needs a video!

[ubervic]

Gabe and my wife are doing it with a Glock. I am routinely doing it with a CZ Shadow and P229. Today, I was doing it with the PPS I was checking out. I am pretty sure it is applicable to DA/SA and striker, not sure about a 1911.

10-4

I found that my ability to smoothly work trigger with my old MP9FS was limited to perhaps the last 2-3 inches of press-out, yet I'm on the trigger much more aggressively with my SP2022---I'm sensing that I begin rolling the DA trigger as soon as my front sight transitions in motion from peripheral vision to sharp focus.

[SecondsCount]

Gabe and my wife are doing it with a Glock. I am routinely doing it with a CZ Shadow and P229. Today, I was doing it with the PPS I was checking out. I am pretty sure it is applicable to DA/SA and striker, not sure about a 1911.

I thought that is how you had to do it with a short trigger pull? When I ran a 1911 I did a "micro" press out.

With the LEM I start pressing much earlier.

[nycnoob]

I am starting this thread to discuss something my wife, Mr_White and I all independently started doing. We are doing a classic index draw, but have started working the trigger in about the last three inches of decelerating the pistol.

I am not sure I follow. What were you doing before?

[JustOneGun]

This is the old discussion of putting the finger on the trigger before sights are on target thread. If you are strict then what you are doing is heresy. If you are not then you are doing it like most other people. An efficient draw to first shot requires what you describe.

Most people with an index draw do this as they get faster and faster. Talking about it usually ends in the previously mentioned safety argument. Then the argument moves on to most people doing the press out are not actually on target yet when they contact the trigger, usually do to locking the wrist early in the draw. And around and around we go.

[nwhpfan]

GJM,

I think I know exactly what you are talking bout... I started doing the press out a few years ago right when I really started to try to take my shooting to a new level. For me the index resulted in gacking the shot. it was as if I flung the pistol out there I couldn't pull the trigger with the right amount of care and/or I couldn't chill out mentally to not anticipate recoil (which sometimes became a flinch). The PO was a way to alleviate that but it was slllllooooooooowwwww.

I stopped any version of the PO because the best shooters in the world don't do it and they seem to get amazing fast accurate shots doing an index. And I got a lot from a Ron Avery Video on the issue too. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ)

The best I found for trigger was through DF and a single drill in Ben Stoegers book (which I think you have an autographed copy) essentially inoculated me from concerns of recoil. It is basically "trigger control at speed" and trying to pull the trigger in DF without disrupting the sights and very fast speed: start at the sound of the timer and complete by the time the "beeep" is over. It caused within me a total awareness of the sights and trigger and little concern for recoil or noise...

Here's a video of me shooting some Four Aces. The target is a A/B zone piece of steel at 12 yards. I have watched myself in slow motion and I generally am not on the trigger until the pistol is near horizontal and I don't start working the trigger until I'm ready to fire. I don't have a conscious feeling of..work it a bit, then pull through. It's "on target, fire"

https://youtu.be/0HidlChfZ08

[GJM]

I am not sure if folks are understanding what I am trying to describe. It is an index draw, and in approximately the last three (3) inches of extension, with sights on target, during deceleration of the pistol, the trigger is being manipulated.

It is not holding me back in speed, and quite the opposite is speeding up precision shots, like to a two inch dot at 7 yards. I am sure Gabe has video, as he is also doing it. We believe the critical element is combining trigger and movement of the pistol over a very short distance to avoid anticipation.

[David S.]

Yeah, having trouble visualizing this.

[JHC]

Gabe and my wife are doing it with a Glock. I am routinely doing it with a CZ Shadow and P229. Today, I was doing it with the PPS I was checking out. I am pretty sure it is applicable to DA/SA and striker, not sure about a 1911.

That's all I do. A couple years ago here that was decried as tantamount to NG'ing into a waitress next to you but I knew NOT so I changed channels.

Twice in the last 2000 rounds pushing speed I've touched off a little early. So far it was an Alpha and a Charlie on target. Quick hit too.

[nwhpfan]

I am not sure if folks are understanding what I am trying to describe. It is an index draw, and in approximately the last three (3) inches of extension, with sights on target, during deceleration of the pistol, the trigger is being manipulated.

It is not holding me back in speed, and quite the opposite is speeding up precision shots, like to a two inch dot at 7 yards. I am sure Gabe has video, as he is also doing it. We believe the critical element is combining trigger and movement of the pistol over a very short distance to avoid anticipation.

I really thought I was contributing. Now I just look like some jerk trying to get hits on my own stupid video :)

[JHC]

I really thought I was contributing. Now I just look like some jerk trying to get hits on my own stupid video :)

Glad you did! Subscribed. I will watch that beaucoup. That reload tho! :D

[breakingtime91]

I really thought I was contributing. Now I just look like some jerk trying to get hits on my own stupid video :)

your reload is impressive. Your draw is nice also. I find it hard to translate owb to my appendix draw, not sure if others have that issue. I use a belt while hunting, only time I am ever owb

[Mr_White]

This is a pretty small thing.

In my case, I wouldn't really call what I am doing a press out, because it lacks pretty much all of the physical structure I associate with a press out - as much of the horizontal line of presentation as possible kept in the true eye-target line - nor do I decelerate the gun significantly before full extension.

Where there is some commonality for me with the press out, is in mentally embracing aiming and firing with the gun in motion. Basically, I do an index draw to essentially full extension. When I decelerate the gun in the last couple inches of the stroke, I am seeing and refining the sight picture and increasing pressure on the trigger. Maybe another way to describe it is slowing the gun (essentially to a stop) but without a big mental attachment to stopping the gun specifically.

It's really just how I'm thinking about what is happening while the gun is decelerating toward stillness. I bet if I took a video of me doing this, and a video of me thinking something like "present-pause-press", they'd be pretty much indistinguishable visually. It's like the difference between a hard stop and a stop with all the edges rounded into smoothness. A hard stop vs. gliding the gun toward stopping. Micro press out is as good a term as any. I don't think there's much difference between this and an index draw done well, with a nice smooth stop - I think those are essentially the same.

I almost feel like we are really talking about the mental/emotional difference between patience and impatience with the gun being in a little bit of motion. Kind of like the wobble zone concept, just within the context of the draw.

[Mr_White]

your reload is impressive. Your draw is nice also.

Definitely! nwhpfan is an excellent shooter.

[Surf]

GJM - nwhpfan has a good angle in his video that pertains to your reload thread. What he is performing is what I was trying to describe and a type of reload that I am a fan of. Nice reloads!

[taadski]

your reload is impressive. Your draw is nice also. I find it hard to translate owb to my appendix draw, not sure if others have that issue. I use a belt while hunting, only time I am ever owb

nwhpfan carries a pistol daily as part of his job, IIRC.

This might tweak the "train only as you fight" purists some, but I've actually found good success working on the pure mechanics of my draw from an OWB production style rig over the past few years. And I've seen that understanding/improvement carry over into draws both from my IWB and my retention (work) holsters.

The best way I've found to translate and understand the differences is with the timer and hard numbers.



This is a pretty small thing…

I don't think there's much difference between this and an index draw done well, with a nice smooth stop - I think those are essentially the same.

I almost feel like we are really talking about the mental/emotional difference between patience and impatience with the gun being in a little bit of motion. Kind of like the wobble zone concept, just within the context of the draw.


Thanks for clarifying your perspective, G. That makes a lot of sense. I think some of the confusion comes from the "micro 'press out'" description, especially given the fact that, as we've discovered before, it can mean a lot of different things to different people. Especially given the history of it here.



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[OnionsAndDragons]

I think what this thread needs is some Gabe White stick men with laser eyes.


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[Mr_White]

stick men with laser eyes

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1703/23862389003_ddcdba46d7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CmCYU4)Micro (Mental) Press Out (https://flic.kr/p/CmCYU4) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[breakingtime91]

[QUOTE=taadski;397099]nwhpfan carries a pistol daily as part of his job, IIRC.

This might tweak the "train only as you fight" purists some, but I've actually found good success working on the pure mechanics of my draw from an OWB production style rig over the past few years. And I've seen that understanding/improvement carry over into draws both from my IWB and my retention (work) holsters.

The best way I've found to translate and understand the differences is with the timer and hard numbers.



Completely agree. That is an interesting point. I use an ALS on my "war belt" (hunting belt with suspenders in my mind) and may have to experiment with what your saying. thanks for the heads up brother.

[Mr_White]

This might tweak the "train only as you fight" purists some, but I've actually found good success working on the pure mechanics of my draw from an OWB production style rig over the past few years. And I've seen that understanding/improvement carry over into draws both from my IWB and my retention (work) holsters.

I think that's a pretty fair point. For all the emphasis people here have on using same equipment for games and defense, me as much as anyone, I don't think a reasonable argument could even be made that one can't/doesn't learn things with one set of gear that can be of benefit when working with a different set of gear. The argument really just comes down to priorities, personal preferences, degrees of learning and degrees of attunement, potential training scars, and guesswork as to whether a person would be better off sticking with the same gear or trying different gear if they could go back in time and spend their efforts differently. Probably works out differently for different people too.

[Dagga Boy]

Worked this a little yesterday with a P2000 and TLG LEM. It worked well. I have a very distinct way I draw go to the sights and trigger, and it is not consistent with what most are doing, and this is strictly based on personal experience and I am comfortable with the speed sacrifice. It is not something I push on others, just what I do. I noted early in this thread, that this is really how Wayne Dobbs presents normally and does very well with it. I am actually really pleased with how it worked, particularly with the LEM, which I had not shot in awhile. I will be working this with my VP9 next range day. No longer being active in LE, this may be a very workable compromise for me.