Discrimination & Sexism in the Gun Business.

[GardoneVT]

Yup, im going there.


In light of my last blog post , I figured this is a topic worth cross-posting . It isn't a problem here , and its a credit to the forum that not once has my race been brought up as a negative or a topic of personal ad-hominem. That being said, the same cannot be stated about the shooting business as a whole. I could start my own lottery if I got a nickel for every time a gun business at my first visit initially treated me like a straw purchaser because i'm black and dared ask about a gun in the display case.

By no means am I saying its a horrendously bad problem in need of Justice Department investigation, but we won't be able to grow the shooting sports and self-defense business much if people are discriminating against the customers. The things ive seen gun counter folk & husbands say to women at the gun case have made me cringe, and i'm no stranger to being labeled.

What practical steps should we take collectively to address the matter? While totally eliminating discimination isn't an achievable goal in any sector of society, I don't think its a stretch to say that compared to other industries the Gun Business has a bit of a sexism/racism problem. We need to address it if we want more minority and women on the firing line.

I don't want to make this post seem like some witch hunt or inquisition.

I'll offer the disclaimer right here and now that I don't believe most of the business and training industry is racist or sexist, and I invite comments based on facts and truth. But if so much as 20% of the business is stuck in 1954, it can do grevious harm to how we're all perceived and our growth politically.

Please don't sugar coat responses here because you believe I might get offended. As my DD214 can ably prove, I've been 'criticized' by white folks before.:D

[SouthNarc]

Do you think the gun business is anymore racist than any other business?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Can we also differentiate between discrimination and stereotyping? Or profiling (not racial) for that matter?

If sumdude walks in wearing a black hoodie, a flat-brimmed ballcap set at a goofy angle, and his baggy jeans belted around his thighs with his boxers showing, his skin color may not be what I'm keying on.

[olstyn]

Well, I suppose there are a couple of causes. First, some people are just racist and/or sexist assholes and some of them work in gun shops. It sucks, but there it is. There really isn't much more to it on the sexist front other than blatant stupidity, at least as far as i can tell, so I'll leave that part alone for the rest of my post.

On racism, though, there are definitely some factors in our society exacerbating the problem. Gang violence gives all people who might be visually associated with that life an image problem. BLM isn't helping any. Straw purchases and all sorts of other shady dealings do occur, and that stuff probably makes gun dealers wary and skeptical as a default posture.

The best solution is probably to get more women and minorities behind the counter. If your coworkers are minorities, you then interact with minorities on a daily basis and are less likely to perceive them as bad, other, or dangerous. If you work with women and are used to them being intelligent and knowledgeable, you're less likely to treat female customers like they don't know what they're doing. I would think that women and minorities would be more comfortable shopping if at least some of the salespeople are "their" people too. Note that I'm not saying there has to be a 1:1 racial/gender correlation between salesperson and customer; I just mean that if the sales staff is more diverse, the environment will be less likely to be biased against a given group. How to make that happen on a widespread basis, though? I don't know; what are the demographics of the people who apply for jobs at gun stores? What biases exist in those who do the hiring?

[Chance]

What practical steps should we take collectively to address the matter? While totally eliminating discimination isn't an achievable goal in any sector of society, I don't think its a stretch to say that compared to other industries the Gun Business has a bit of a sexism/racism problem. We need to address it if we want more minority and women on the firing line.

With regard to sexism, we've had this conversation before, and it went rather poorly (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16050-Guns-for-Girls).

I'd like to see actual numbers regarding sexist/racist issues. I think that's an omnipresent problem in every industry.

I can only intelligently discuss my field, which is computer science. I've seen estimations putting the percentage of women completing computer science degrees as low as 12% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing). And, while I can't cite a source, my personal experience is that over 90% of the black people I encounter are international students from Africa, rather than "African Americans" (I hate that term. Sue me.)

I have no idea why this is the case in my field, and I sincerely would like to change that. Right now, all I know is that I'll make a best effort to look after the students who care, and could give a fuck less how any student is categorized.

[olstyn]

I can only intelligently discuss my field, which is computer science. I've seen estimations putting the percentage of women completing computer science degrees as low as 12% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing).

I don't know if it's changed much now, but in the late '90s/early '00s at the University of Minnesota, you could count the non-white students in any given CSci class on one hand, and most of those were Asian males. There was at least a sprinkling of non-white professors, but again, most of them were Asian, split probably 65/35 between Chinese and Indian, and the vast majority were male. I'm not sure what the cause was/is, but obviously if you don't have a diverse group of students in the education system for any given field, you're not going to have a diverse workforce either.

[Chance]

I don't know if it's changed much now, but in the late '90s/early '00s at the University of Minnesota, you could count the non-white students in any given CSci class on one hand, and most of those were Asian males. There was at least a sprinkling of non-white professors, but again, most of them were Asian, split probably 65/35 between Chinese and Indian, and the vast majority were male. I'm not sure what the cause was/is, but obviously if you don't have a diverse group of students in the education system for any given field, you're not going to have a diverse workforce either.

Not the case anymore. My university is dead set on increasing student enrollment damned the consequences. For instance, my first semester in grad school, I took the 'advanced algorithms' class with less than twenty students in the only section offered that semester. Last semester, there were five sections with no fewer than 40 students.

Our undergrad enrollment is almost as high as our graduate enrollment, and the overwhelming majority is from India. That's not to knock international students, as we're privileged to bring in people who are extraordinarily brilliant from all over the world (and whom I sincerely consider myself fortunate to have known). It's just to note that the modern education system is valued based on graduation rates, rather than quality of education. The quality of education is hard to measure, but graduation rates? Throw more people into the program, and graduation rates will naturally increase.

[Jeep]

I don't know if it's changed much now, but in the late '90s/early '00s at the University of Minnesota, you could count the non-white students in any given CSci class on one hand, and most of those were Asian males. There was at least a sprinkling of non-white professors, but again, most of them were Asian, split probably 65/35 between Chinese and Indian, and the vast majority were male. I'm not sure what the cause was/is, but obviously if you don't have a diverse group of students in the education system for any given field, you're not going to have a diverse workforce either.

When you think about it, evolutionary theory would suggest that it is hugely unlikely that all talents are spread equally across all peoples and both sexes. For example, autism tends to hit males more than females, and thus one would assume you'd find more males than females in professions in which certain autistic-spectrum traits might be beneficial. (I'll leave to others whether that includes computer science or not).

Given that, the push by the administration for "diversity" in all fields seems foolish at best, but then again when one bases everything off invented theories rather than empirical evidence one is almost certainly going to come to some whacky conclusions.

[GardoneVT]

Do you think the gun business is anymore racist than any other business?

I can't speak to it being more or less racist as a matter of citeable fact. What I can confidently say, however, is that the portion of staff in the gun business have no qualms showing their prejudices.

Put differently- the guy at your local Apple Store might be a sexist bigot, but he'll at least have the sense to keep his opinions out of the workplace. Wish I could say the same for every gun shop as well.

I'm not asking if we can eliminate bigotry as a personal view from the gun business, but if we can establish a welcoming culture where regardless of ones background or personal feelings shooters can be welcomed without expressed prejudices.

[HCM]

I can't speak to it being more or less racist as a matter of citeable fact. What I can confidently say, however, is that the portion of staff in the gun business have no qualms showing their prejudices.

Put differently- the guy at your local Apple Store might be a sexist bigot, but he'll at least have the sense to keep his opinions out of the workplace. Wish I could say the same for every gun shop as well.

I'm not asking if we can eliminate bigotry as a personal view from the gun business, but if we can establish a welcoming culture where regardless of ones background or personal feelings shooters can be welcomed without expressed prejudices.

The guy at the local apple store isn't going to lose his livelihood if he sells iPads to straw puchasers.

My LGS gets a mix of people and I believe all are treated fairly - does that mean they are more open to a black e-4 as opposed to three black thugs who smell like marijuana? Yes and I see no issue with it. Same for the white tweaker who came in trying to sell a bunch of collectible Mausers still wrapped in pillowcases and blankets (burglary much?).

[olstyn]

HCM, those two examples are pretty cut and dried. What about the black guy who dresses thug life but doesn't smell like pot, doesn't act twitchy, and has a vocabulary extending beyond ebonics? How does he get treated? I think it's that middle ground between obviously shady and obviously respectable that GardoneVT is concerned with here. (Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, GVT.)

[Chance]

For example, autism tends to hit males more than females, and thus one would assume you'd find more males than females in professions in which certain autistic-spectrum traits might be beneficial. (I'll leave to others whether that includes computer science or not).

That is beyond absurd. What, exactly, are you suggesting? That anyone who learns from CodeBabes (https://codebabes.com/)is on the spectrum?

Autism is characterized by "difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts". Just because your software developers don't like you doesn't mean they're autistic.

I'm not even sure where to begin a counter to this idea. You think that because I have degrees in computer science, I must be a basement-dweller virgin that has only seen vaginas in the moves? You think that in my programming classes, I never have to deal with parents preparing for a child? You think that in my classes, I have automatons who are immune to emotional breakdowns? Of course, the mere notion that engineering students respond to stimulus like normal humans is ridiculous!

No, obviously, anyone interested in computers must have Asperger's at minimum. There's clearly no money to be made in this field. There's no interesting problems to be solved in this field. No future in computers whatever.

[farscott]

I occasionally help out behind the counter at a friend's gun shop. The general rule is, "Treat the customer as well as he or she is treating you." If someone is respectful, no matter the age, race, gender, or dress, that person is treated well. Part of that is much of the clientele is wealthy farmers who come into the store dressed like field hands, and another large portion is younger people who may not yet be able to afford a particular gun -- but will in the future. The idea is to not make assumptions based on dress -- make them based on how the person behaves.

If someone is muzzling people, the rule is to try a gentle correction. If that is not sufficient, the response tends to get a little more heated and/or pointed. If the person is not respectful, the rule is to nicely suggest there business might be better first appreciated elsewhere, such as at a firearms safety course.

I have witnessed the owner decline to complete a sale because he felt something was hinky. I have also seen him tell people that state law requires that he run every firearm he purchases through a database to see if it has been stolen.

[GardoneVT]

HCM, those two examples are pretty cut and dried. What about the black guy who dresses thug life but doesn't smell like pot, doesn't act twitchy, and has a vocabulary extending beyond ebonics? How does he get treated? I think it's that middle ground between obviously shady and obviously respectable that GardoneVT is concerned with here. (Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, GVT.)

No apologies necessary. That sums up my sentiment.

I could understand rigid behavior if I gave off impressions of being up to shadiness. When I approach a counter and am treated as a prospective felon by the staff without any cause given, then that's a case of discrimination which is totally different from a white/black/Latino/etc walking up in FuBu clothes smelling like weed and dropping his vowels

As a rule, I don't dress "urban". Not really my style, and when I go to the range I'm in jeans and a shirt, maybe with a blazer over it . I also use consonants and vowels when addressing gun shop staff and dont use illegal drugs .
Still ,on occasion I get treated like I'm a zero week pube fresh off the bus at Lackland until my veteran ID comes out for the BG check...then , suddenly, the salesperson turns on the customer service switch.

That sort of thing isn't good for us as an industry. Nor are the cases when women are treated like children in need of " manly" supervision.

[HCM]

HCM, those two examples are pretty cut and dried. What about the black guy who dresses thug life but doesn't smell like pot, doesn't act twitchy, and has a vocabulary extending beyond ebonics? How does he get treated? I think it's that middle ground between obviously shady and obviously respectable that GardoneVT is concerned with here. (Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, GVT.)

In that shop - he would get the benefit of the doubt. In your example, the guy is by himself and appears to be buying a gun for himself? No issue.

Maybe it's just a TX thing but I've seen more shady characters of all stripes in gun stores here than anywhere else I've lived.

This particular shop is on my way home from work so I pop in there frequently. Both of those are actual examples btw.

[olstyn]

That sort of thing isn't good for us as an industry. Nor are the cases when women are treated like children in need of " manly" supervision.

Agreed, and it's very easy to understand why that sort of experience would lead to anger on your part. You're right on about women, too. My wife is rarely willing to even enter a gun shop because of it, and she justifiably gets very prickly when the salespeople start talking to me like I'm in charge when we're there looking for something for her. (Well, let's be fair, it's salesmen; I don't think we've run into a saleswoman yet, and I bet the experience would be quite different if we did.)

[olstyn]

In that shop - he would get the benefit of the doubt. In your example, the guy is by himself and appears to be buying a gun for himself? No issue.

That's how I envisioned my made-up example, yes. Glad to hear that it'd work out like it should in at least one place.

[Wheeler]

I can't speak to it being more or less racist as a matter of citeable fact. What I can confidently say, however, is that the portion of staff in the gun business have no qualms showing their prejudices.

Put differently- the guy at your local Apple Store might be a sexist bigot, but he'll at least have the sense to keep his opinions out of the workplace. Wish I could say the same for every gun shop as well.

I'm not asking if we can eliminate bigotry as a personal view from the gun business, but if we can establish a welcoming culture where regardless of ones background or personal feelings shooters can be welcomed without expressed prejudices.

How much is bigotry and racism on the part of the gun store staff and how much is perceived bigotry and racism on your part?

[Dagga Boy]

I ll just ask ahead of time....do you want me to be honest, some may be offended. If not, I ll happily skip it.

[RevolverRob]

Discrimination & Sexism exists in every field, my own included. Currently, more than half of my colleagues are female, but the majority of them are white females. The number of female biologists was in the tens prior to Affirmative Action and since then has gone up into the thousands if not tens of thousands (depending on the numbers you view). Antiquated notions of female capability are antiquated. Unfortunately, in traditionally, "male roles" of society - men and women still make deference to male authority figures. Despite the fact that over half of my peers as graduate students are female, more than half of them will leave academia. Female role models are still rare and females holding the upper positions are rarer still.

What am I getting at? The gun bidness is no different than any other bidness. They all have their biases and problems.

Regarding your blog-post example of the Ford F250. My mother went to a Ford dealer in 2001 to purchase a Ford F150 Supercrew with a 5.4 V8. My mother is 4'11.5" tall, at the time was CFO of a production company, grossing $22 million a year. The salesman she talked to at Prestige Ford, in Dallas, Texas said to her, and her 16 year old son at the time, "Darlin' do you really think you can handle a full size V8 pickup? Maybe you want to run it by your husband, first?" She turned back to the man and said, "Darlin' do you talk down to all of your female customers? I'll go purchase this $35,000 truck from someone else." We left and went across town to a different Ford dealer and she bought the truck she wanted. Even upgraded to the nicer interior.

Not every single person on the planet plays the victim in all instances. Most folks learned to vote with their dollars and feet. Those who haven't need to be reminded, I agree, but if you open your mouth enough, someone is going to stuff your foot into it, if you don't.

-Rob

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Is the issue similar when one goes to buy a car. I think females and minorities can face the same difficult. Certainly it occurs in buying a house. How to combat it - it is a general and societal problem.

The standard answer to breaking discrimination is to have folks of similar educational and economic background work together on a joint project or goal. Lectures, sensitivity meetings and the like are not that powerful and in some cases increase negative attitudes.

Even highly educated folks are subject to such. Academic astronomy and philosophy have been taken to task recently for being sexist and abusive cesspools.

Sexism in the gun world has been discussed in several academic books by Oyster and Stange (Gun Women), McCaughey - Real Knockouts, Kohn - Shooters: Myths and Realities of America's Gun Culture. There are good gun world books by Pax - Kathy Jackson, Vicki Farnam.

Ancedotely, the academic authors speak to men trying to be Dunning-Kruger experts and dominating women with pseudo-knowledge or getting obnoxiously flirty.

[Casual Friday]

How bout all the discrimination of the so called "cleetii" and "typical gun owner" that gets over used? Or are we just talking about women and minorities?

[GardoneVT]

Not every single person on the planet plays the victim in all instances. Most folks learned to vote with their dollars and feet. Those who haven't need to be reminded, I agree, but if you open your mouth enough, someone is going to stuff your foot into it, if you don't.

-Rob

Exactly the point. How can we advance social recognition of the 2nd Amendment if minorities and women 's first experience at a gun shop/range/etc is so bad they'd rather opt out?

That's going to bite us in the rear politically.

[Casual Friday]

Exactly the point. How can we advance social recognition of the 2nd Amendment if minorities and women 's first experience at a gun shop/range/etc is so bad they'd rather opt out?

That's going to bite us in the rear politically.

What about the white chubby guy in overalls and a John Deere hat that walks into a gun store and is treated poorly by a well dressed person of color?

[JodyH]

Most gunstore employees are stupid assholes.
/thread

I'm their target demographic and the majority of them do their best to lose the sale.
Is it hurting us? YES.
What can you do about it? Buy from someone who's not an ass.

[mmc45414]

I think some of what is reasonably interpreted as racism and sexism is just ineptitude.

I have worked in some kind of sales related role for about thirty years and I have encountered only a few people working in gun stores that know how to sell for shit. Lots of friendly people but plenty of smug butt heads too worried about being the smartest guy in the room.

I remember asking a LGS if they ever stock Brand M and being directly told that I didn’t want that, because they are junk, and that I wanted Brand R, because they were embraced by all of the local police departments. In any sales situation when the first thing you do is trash what the potential client asked about you just might as well call them a dumbass to their face, because that is how they are mentally interpreting it.

I remember this like it was yesterday and it was probably 1978. If I was black or female I am sure I am sure I woulda thought the guy was a racist/sexist asshole instead of just an asshole.

[SouthNarc]

One thing that would probably help would be a black guy like you Gardone, working at the LGS.

[Tamara]

How bout all the discrimination of the so called "cleetii" and "typical gun owner" that gets over used?

If discriminating against people who bristle when called out for unsafe behavior and revel in their ignorance is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Personally, I just find that since I took over editing the magazine I'm super busy, and relying on rigid and offensive stereotypes is just saving me a TON of time. For one, I basically only have to listen to the ideas of white guys. Plus, I don't have to think hard about making jokes, I can just refer back to a virtually endless list of time-tested gags.

Super handy and worth a try for today's man-on-the-move.

[RevolverRob]

Exactly the point. How can we advance social recognition of the 2nd Amendment if minorities and women 's first experience at a gun shop/range/etc is so bad they'd rather opt out?

That's going to bite us in the rear politically.

I'm not sure you understood the point of my anecdote. My mother, a successful business woman, of diminutive stature, a hispanic woman, no less, had a simple response for the her offensive salesman it was, "No profit for you." And walked away and made her capitalist purchase elsewhere, where the salesmen weren't dicks.

She didn't stand around lamenting that car salesmen are assholes (a more notorious group of assholes you'd have a harder time identifying). She didn't write a long diatribe filled letter calling out the entire auto-sales industry for the racism and sexism. She told the salesman he'd lost a sale and why and let him ponder that, while she paid someone else lots of money. It wasn't something the industry needed to address with training videos...it was something that dude - needed to address himself.

I've been in gunstores since I was 18. Hell, I've worked in gunstores. I've sold guns, indiscriminately to just about everyone. In my career, I refused less than half a dozen purchases, for clear, legal, articulate reasons. I've fired employees that were assholes to customers. I've never had a custom complaint. I've had minority customers come to me, after the dillhole down the street acted like a dillhole. He lost the sale, I got it, I made the profit, he went out of business. No need to file a complaint with anyone for any reason. My point is, what you interpret as an industry-wide problem is a society-wide problem. And it isn't solved by crying about it, it's solved by standing up for yourself and getting it done.

Somewhere along the way - we lost "Do unto others as you would have do unto you." And replaced it with, "If you don't like the result cry about it." I'll be honest, from one Minority Marksman to another - I'm not sure you've figured out how to adequately stand up for yourself, Gardone. What strikes me is you haven't figured out there might be more than one Minority Marksman, we just don't identify as "The" - The victim, the authority, whatever. And that "We" don't see all things the same way.

If someone insults me - I tell them and then walk away. If I insult someone, I expect the same response. Turn the other cheek isn't just a turn of phrase - it's a philosophy.

-Rob

[PPGMD]

She didn't stand around lamenting that car salesmen are assholes (a more notorious group of assholes you'd have a harder time identifying). She didn't write a long diatribe filled letter calling out the entire auto-sales industry for the racism and sexism. She told the salesman he'd lost a sale and why and let him ponder that, while she paid someone else lots of money. It wasn't something the industry needed to address with training videos...it was something that dude - needed to address himself.

I agree with this with one exception, she should write a letter to the manager and/or owner detailing how she was treated with a copy of the invoice from the truck she purchased else where.

The management should know that their jackhole of an employee lose them a sale.

[GardoneVT]

I'm not sure you understood the point of my anecdote. My mother, a successful business woman, of diminutive stature, a hispanic woman, no less, had a simple response for the her offensive salesman it was, "No profit for you." And walked away and made her capitalist purchase elsewhere, where the salesmen weren't dicks.

She didn't stand around lamenting that car salesmen are assholes (a more notorious group of assholes you'd have a harder time identifying). She didn't write a long diatribe filled letter calling out the entire auto-sales industry for the racism and sexism. She told the salesman he'd lost a sale and why and let him ponder that, while she paid someone else lots of money. It wasn't something the industry needed to address with training videos...it was something that dude - needed to address himself.

I've been in gunstores since I was 18. Hell, I've worked in gunstores. I've sold guns, indiscriminately to just about everyone. In my career, I refused less than half a dozen purchases, for clear, legal, articulate reasons. I've fired employees that were assholes to customers. I've never had a custom complaint. I've had minority customers come to me, after the dillhole down the street acted like a dillhole. He lost the sale, I got it, I made the profit, he went out of business. No need to file a complaint with anyone for any reason. My point is, what you interpret as an industry-wide problem is a society-wide problem. And it isn't solved by crying about it, it's solved by standing up for yourself and getting it done.

Somewhere along the way - we lost "Do unto others as you would have do unto you." And replaced it with, "If you don't like the result cry about it." I'll be honest, from one Minority Marksman to another - I'm not sure you've figured out how to adequately stand up for yourself, Gardone. What strikes me is you haven't figured out there might be more than one Minority Marksman, we just don't identify as "The" - The victim, the authority, whatever. And that "We" don't see all things the same way.

If someone insults me - I tell them and then walk away. If I insult someone, I expect the same response. Turn the other cheek isn't just a turn of phrase - it's a philosophy.

-Rob

We seem to be talking past each other on the subject.

Here's the deal. Im not posting this because of personal discomfort. That's not an industry problem, and frankly it ain't even a personal one. You want to be an asshole to your customers, thats your business being sunk. I'm not lifting a finger to write the management or piss and moan about bad individual service. If you as a business owner don't know when your staff is screwing the pooch you deserve whatever consequences that comes with.

What is an industry problem, and one well all have to deal with if this issue keeps up, is a population of voters who vote for gun control because we don't have any ambassadors . Consumer research states that clients retain a bad experience far longer in memory then even ten good ones. So instead of winning people into the gun owning fold-which is a demographic necessity if we plan to preserve our permissive legal environment-we'll instead be sowing discontent and negativity.

From a commerce standpoint you're right. Let the turds fall while the good business gain customers and prosper. That does nothing for the political problem of people being treated like garbage who then decide hey, maybe that liberal on TV calling gun owners racist has a point.

[Dagga Boy]

I'd certainly like to hear your honest thoughts on the matter.

Sent GardoneVT a PM. Its up to him if he can handle it. I would never want to offend a member I really like here.

[GardoneVT]

I'd certainly like to hear your honest thoughts on the matter.

Likewise. Be advised, Nyeti's PC waiver has been approved.

;)

[Dagga Boy]

Okay, here is my observation from a very wide variety of experiences.

Why is this the gun industry's problem alone? Blacks make up about 12-13% of the population. Just walking into a gun store, range, etc. puts you in the "left handed holsters" by sheer numbers alone. Now we get to simple politics. Gun folks tend to be not only conservative, but heavy constitutional conservatives who despise all things liberal, and progressive. 93% Americans who are black are liberal progressives by how they vote. This leaves 7% of a group of 12% as a person who folks in a gun shop may have something in common with as far as "being like them" in regards to how they think about guns. So this is really a bit more stereotyping and profiling that WE ALL DO. Sometimes we make mistakes. In this case, the gun industry is a lot like politics. Look how accepting conservatives are when they can find one of those 7% of 12%. The enemies of Senator Tim Scott are not conservative white folks. Just like the rise of the popularity of Colin Noir. I don't know anyone who isn't thankful for him.....in the gun industry that is, he is the enemy to a majority of people who happen to have the same complexion. How much work is being done in the black community to adopt a culture of being responsible gun owners. The "evil white NRA" is trying awfully hard right now to appeal again to the black community in several ads. Now let's look at how the black community itself portrays the use of firearms. Look in the mirror at the rap community and popular media at how blacks portray themselves as gun owners? Is it wholly the fault of the gun shop employees who look at blacks with suspicion...or does the black community itself bear some responsibility in how it makes themselves appear.
How much work has been done in the black community itself to promote responsible gun ownership? We seeing any media stuff with responsible use? Hunting, law enforcement, self defense, how about in the competitive shooting sports? How many young black kids are sitting around on a Saturday in winter watching Hot Shots and 3 Gun nation. Is part of the problem a clash of cultures and not a clash of colors?
This is very much like politics. The democrats know they will get 90+% of the vote from blacks, so they really don't have to do crap except promise some b.s. The Republicans know at best they have to work hard to get 7% of 12%.....and that is such a small number that it isn't worth the investment. And what does the black community get.....totally marginalized. Yet somehow it is the Republicans fault. That is how I look at the gun industry. It's the Republican Party. An industry that would LOVE to have much more black participation...but has to balance that with how much work do you want to put in for a group that does not seem interested. Honestly.....look at how women are being treated in the gun industry. An investment has been made in recruitment, and women are responding, and the industry is changing. A woman's experience in a gun shop these days is far different than twenty years ago. Counter folks who treat women like crap these days will not remain employed long. Shops that are not adapting to how to work with female customers will die the death that pure capitalism deals. Right now...the reality by the numbers is that a young black man dressed in anything looking like popular street wear will be assumed to be "wrong"....because the percentages make it that way. Are there some real racists out there in the industry. Sure there are. If that is the case, who wants to give them money anyways. I don't. If I was in a shop and heard a bunch of N word crap and racist commentary from employees, I would be gone in a minute with my money. The thing is, that is not what you are hearing. What you hear is totally hatred of the progressive liberal agenda. That agenda is one that stereotypes people in the gun industry as the most evil creatures on earth. So....when a person walks in who has a 9 out of 10 chance of being one of those liberal progressives who demonize the gun industry......is it racist that they are not warm and welcoming but are suspicious instead. I think it is stereotyping, but not racist. That stereotyping comes from reality.
Now my biggest issue. When any group constantly wants to self identify as special, you will never be treated as equal. When everything has to have some underlying issue with specialness....equality will never be achieved. Getting stereotyped at a business doesn't make you special, and it doesn't make people racist. I went into a car dealership to buy my Raptor. In an unusual situation, none of the salesmen would talk to me....who all happened to be black. Finally a guy asked if I needed anything. I asked about the price on the Raptor. Guy sort of huffed, walked back to an office, came back and said $54,000 with a sarcastic tone indicative that based on my homeless appearance didn't think I could swing it. I asked about any incentives or financing deals (indicating I wanted to buy it). Guy says..."No" and walks off. So here we have a case of a young black man in a suit assuming I could not afford a vehicle because of my appearance. Do I think he was a racist? No, I think he made a mistake in his stereotyping. He "profiled" me wrong. It gave me a chance to go home and research that exact vehicle and get a car fax history. I returned the next day. A much older black salesman helped me. The sales manager was shocked when he found out I tried to buy the truck the previous day. The salesman who did help me was heavily experienced in sales his whole life. We talked a lot. He said these younger guys assume to much based on what people are wearing. In this case, they do a lot of business with black customers. The older salesmen said the younger guys are looking at crap like what basketball shoes guys are wearing or the brands of their clothing. The older guy said "I learned a long time ago, especially working in L.A., never assume". We did a good negotiation, and when the guy asked about my credit I said "why, I am paying cash". He started laughing and said he couldn't wait to screw with the other guy who blew me off that the guy let an easy cash sale walk. So...I was at a dealership where I was a minority race customer. Most of the sales staff is Black or Hispanic (never saw a white male sales person). So are they all racist? Thought of "racism" never entered my mind. What did pop in is that they made assumptions based on past experience. Obviously, they had never seen some old bad Santa looking guy in flip flops, shorts and a grungy T-shirt drop cash on a very expensive specialty vehicle. Had I been wearing a nice suit, or in my area, golf clothes, they would have been on me like flies and showing me new Vette's. Just like the local gun shop would treat anyone of any color who came in a conservative well tailored business suit (or in the gun industry a LE or military uniform). Again...perception and profiling based on experience and not race.

On the whole...women themselves have changed how they are treated by the gun industry. They changed how they are treated with money and investment in joining the gun culture. My question is how will blacks change how they are treated. Will that be done on their own initiative and a change in their culture to become valued customers even though they are a smaller group of customers or just playing the special victim card and expecting a change from others with no investment on the other side.

[GardoneVT]

It seems we're drifting on the point.

Yes, I'll state at the start the majority of crimes by statistics are black and Latino folks. You'd better believe when I drive through The Hood I assume most folks of my complexion and demographics are potential threats until proven otherwise, and I'd encourage anyone of any color and ethnicity to do the same.

I'm not carrying the banner for the Victimhood culture that keeps trying to blame white society for black -on-black crime and the degenerate culture which celebrates predation. Most of the bad stuff that happens in black culture has nothing to do with anyone except ourselves as a social group, and no amount of make believe liberal BS is going to change that.

Rather, I'm focusing on the long term politics of sexism and racism in the business. I'm not discussing those terms in the context of The Gun Business bowing down to modern PC groupthink, or some Woe Is Me diatribe about the time GardoneVT stubbed his toe at a gun shop lobby.

The antis aren't taking a day off on their cause to disarm everyone, and if they have to step over the bodies of kids to get their agenda passed they will do so.

Now lets look at what they have as marketing vehicles. They control Hollywood, own the national media ,most federal government agencies and the educational establishment. We have the Internet, and history.

For us to oppose the lock the antis have on the established media channels and academia, we have to fight back with the facts and one-on-one firearms evangelism. Except , this approach has one flaw-what happens when we tell folks collectively 'join us, understand arms and self defense' only for them to be greeted by discrimination and BS?

While other avenues of business are staffed with jerks and assbags , there's a big distinction between those firms and Firearms-there isn't a major polticial bloc trying to ban cars , as one example. Picture being treated like crap ,and then someone handing you a ballot with a proposal to , say, regulate cars or the sale thereof. It's a crude example, but I trust the point is evident enough.

Further , we want people to train and to grow their knowledge base on firearms and self defense. That's difficult when they're greeted with discriminatory BS, and unlike cars self defense is an area which is very intolerant of bullpucky. Buy a bad car and you lose money. Use an-suited gun and your life could be what's lost.

In my last class I saw a female shooter spend most of the session fighting her gun instead of learning . Probably because the guy behind the counter thought she ,being female, couldn't handle a Glock 19 or Shield and suggested she use a .380 instead.

If we as a community don't nip this sort of thing in the bud , we risk ending up like the folks in other countries where citizens voted away their gun rights for lack of political relevance.

[Rick_ICT]

{Many} gun store employees are stupid assholes.
/thread

I'm their target demographic and the majority of them do their best to lose the sale.
Is it hurting us? YES.
What can you do about it? Buy from someone who's not an ass.

There is a lot of truth here with regard to the older traditional "Mom and Pop" LGS's. Middle age white guy who looks like he could probably scrape up the funds to buy most anything in the display case, and I couldn't tell you how many times I have had to go interrupt the circle-jerk down at the end of the counter to get someone to wait on me. And then I count myself lucky if I dont begin my inspection with a real good look right down the bore as the genius muzzles me while/prior to clearing the chamber (if he can be bothered). Crappy service isn't always an indication of discrimination, it may well be SOP for that location. Having said that, I would agree there is still some "good ol' boy" in the industry, especially at the older "Mom and Pop" LGS's. I have cringed mightily at some of the things I've seen and heard (not overt racism/sexism, but unbelievable derp clearly predicated on such).

However, it has been my experience (strictly as a consumer as described above) that this is changing very rapidly, at least in my little corner of America. Market forces are very rapidly reshaping the industry as far as I can tell. No longer is the good 'ol boy "screw ya if we don't know ya, we'll get to ya if we get to ya" business model viable. There is very serious money flowing into the shooting sports these days, and serious money attracts serious business people.

Ten or fifteen years ago, at either of the two indoor ranges here in town at the time, you could safely bet money that the occupant of every lane and behind every counter would pretty much be a carbon copy of me. Maybe with a wife thrown in here and there. But since the Greatest Gun Salesman In The History Of Ever has been in office, the demographics on both sides of the counter have changed dramatically. We have had three more state-of-the-art indoor ranges open here in town, and women abound on both sides of the counter. It is also common to see people from many different minority groups shopping and shooting. The last time I was at one of the ranges, I'm pretty sure I heard both Spanish and (possibly?) Arabic in addition to English on the range, and there was a black guy on my left sighting in an AR (damnit) and another black guy on my right shooting handguns. And everyone was being treated as a valued (and valuable) guest - because this range is run by serious business people. As are the other new ranges in town. And guess what? One of the older ranges in town has suddenly seen the light as they saw their market share dwindling. A woman or minority male walking in there today is having a very different experience than one walking in there fifteen years ago. The other old LGS clings to the old school, and is slowly circling the drain as far as I can tell.

Anecdotally, pretty much everything I read indicates this is taking place across the country. Women and minorities are joining the shooting ranks at record numbers. This is, as they say, A Very Good Thing. These same demographics tend neutral or anti when it comes to guns and skew heavily Democrat. Not only does bringing them into the ranks bode well for America from an egalitarian society point of view, it means the Democrats who gain office may be much more reluctant to tread on the liberties being enjoyed and cherished by their base.

So I guess I dispute the basic premise of the OP. It would appear that women and minorities are joining the shooting ranks in droves. It seems as though the suggestion is that somehow we, as individual members of the shooting community, can or should somehow do something collectively to directly alter the business model of some backward asshole at the local Podunk, pissant gun shop on a "movement" basis. I'd like to know what form you believe that movement should take. Shall we stage die-ins? Street Protests? I find it intriguing that you float the "Justice Department" as a possible mediator - but then, no, it's not *that* extreme (was a yet implied there? hard to tell...). Could we stand to shed some dinosaurs with outmoded thinking? You bet, and not replace them with new ones. And that is happening, if perhaps not as quickly as we might like. I do my part by not "going along to get along" when things are said that shouldnt be, and trying to correct faulty reasoning when I encounter it. But if you believe for one second that anyone can dictate by decree what is in the heart of another, you are in for a rude shock. And I have read enough of your posts here to fully realize you know that.


I agree with this with one exception, she should write a letter to the manager and/or owner detailing how she was treated with a copy of the invoice from the truck she purchased else where.

The management should know that their jackhole of an employee lose them a sale.

This is exactly right. Serious business people take losing business opportunities very seriously. Letting them know via letter, email, or public online review that one of their employees is costing them money will get quick remedial action taken. If not keep an eye out for their liquidation sale, at least that should be good for a little schadenfreude.

As has been astutely pointed out before in this thread, if they can't treat you as a valued customer, *** 'em, take your money elsewhere. And let them know why.


Rick

[farscott]

If discriminating against people who bristle when called out for unsafe behavior and revel in their ignorance is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I have seen two major and one minor types of reactions when unsafe behavior has been observed and admonished: 1) Those who understand that a mistake was made and want to fix it, and 2) Those who feel offended that one would slight the expert gun handling they adopted based on movies and video games. A third group is those who know better and slip. The first group is usually people with little experience who are just stepping into the firearms world, the second is usually part of the demographic that wants a Taurus Judge or a Desert Eagle, and there are not very many of the third.

And, yes, I am amazed at how many Judges get bought. I just keep my mouth shut and make the sale unless I am asked for my opinion.

[jh9]

Rather, I'm focusing on the long term politics of sexism and racism in the business. I'm not discussing those terms in the context of The Gun Business bowing down to modern PC groupthink, or some Woe Is Me diatribe about the time GardoneVT stubbed his toe at a gun shop lobby.

I agree with the larger point here. The gun industry successfully manages to run off everybody that's not a conservative Christian white guy. Lots of people are ok with that. The consequences are not immediate.

If people that walk into a gun store to try it out and decide to opt out because of how they were treated (no letters to management, no complaining, they just leave and don't come back) then they're not going to have any skin in the game years from now when the political winds shift yet again and the Feinsteins and Bloombergs of the world make another big push for an AWB or similar law. So we can try to be more inclusive because it's the right thing to do, or we can try to be more inclusive because it's in everyone's self interest. Either way.

And it may be 7% of 12% as nyeti says, but 1) they have friends and 2) the cost of getting those few people is low: just don't be a dick. As to point 1, even as a white guy, if I walk into a shop and someone is dropping the N bomb nonstop while ironing their Klan robeI'm probably not going to spend any money there. If a friend of mine has the same experience I'm never even going to set foot in the place. So now we've not only lost 2+ sales, we've lost 2+ voters. One of whom isn't even a minority. If said person opts out and posts their negative experience on social media, that may amplify the nonparticipation even further.

I like the carlot example. At some point salesmen had to learn that if someone is dressed in jeans and a t-shirt they might not only be able to afford that Lexus, they might well be able to pay for it in cash. I expect that isn't universal yet, but around here in a city full of 20something engineers? You don't get far making assumptions based on age or how they're dressed. And you not only lose that sale, but potential sales from their friends. I refuse to set foot in the Mitsubishi dealership near here because of how they treated a friend in undergrad. She has a degree in Mechanical Aerospace Engineering and was working as an engineer for NASA (which, given the town, isn't actually uncommon). She asked about a specific car and the salesmen told her to ask her dad first.

I'm not a woman and I refuse to go there.

[Casual Friday]

If discriminating against people who bristle when called out for unsafe behavior and revel in their ignorance is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

That's all well and good, but completely irrelevant to the question I asked him. My question for him was simple, if one of those "typical gun owner Cleetii" that he so often mentions is treated poorly by a gun shop employee who isn't white, is that more badder, less badder, or the same bad as when a woman or minority is treated poorly by a white male gunshop employee?

[fixer]

Most gunstore employees are stupid assholes.
/thread

I'm their target demographic and the majority of them do their best to lose the sale.
Is it hurting us? YES.
What can you do about it? Buy from someone who's not an ass.

I can relate, empathize, sympathize, and downright copy this word for word as my experience and contribution to this thread and subject.

I have never been in a gun store, small, large, 'big box' or in between that the employees 'behind the counter' didn't treat me like I was a second class citizen. And I am not a 'minority'.

Most gun store employees wouldn't recognize Bob Vogel even if they had a monitor replaying the latest IDPA championship highlights on Outdoors TV--and then try to sell him the XD and trash Glocks. Yes...they are mostly that retarded.

Most new shooters, regardless of socio economic status, find gun stores intimidating.

The problem is with typical gun store mentality, not race.

[Trooper224]

I've had a membership at a local range for years, primarily because the bullseye league I compete in shoots there. It's the stereotypical shooting hole without much curb appeal. The interior hasn't been updated since probably 1980, there's no AC out on the range and the lighting is crap. I get along with the staff, but to a large extent it's a fully crewed douche canoe. The employees act like they'd rather chat with their neck bearded bros than help a customer. The league is the only reason I shoot there. This Christmas my wife bought me a year's membership to a new range on the north end of the city and it's the polar opposite of the old place. The range is well lit and ventilated, with AC and RSO's on the line. The gunshop is clean and modern, with a nicely appointed waiting area. After a short certification course, this one allows me to work from the holster, do rapid fire drills, etc., so it's of some actual use in terms of training. The staff are all polite and attentive, as well as diverse in race and gender. Some are more knowledgeable than others, but everyone knows what they don't know which is a nice change. I was honestly surprised at the facility and the staff and in a very good way.

Today's consumer is more demanding and discriminating than in years past and I think this is being seen in the shooting industry. When I was young you just wanted a place to shoot and if it was hot and dark that just made it tough and manly. Today, the shooting community is more diverse and like everything else, the consumer wants an experience as much as a product. I don't think much really needs to be done as the problem seems to be correcting itself.

[JodyH]

Any business staffed by hobbyist or enthusiasts is going to be full of pompous assholes.
Try buying something from a RC Hobby Shop.
Just like a nerdy gun store.

[Hambo]

Some anecdotal stuff about life, the gun biz, and whatever.

-Yesterday I walk into a large gun shop looking for a snubby .38 or better. As I stare into a case of J frame two young dude employees at the counter behind me, playing with their phones, talking about stupid gun shit, and whatever else uninterested white millennials do. I'm a middle aged white dude in better than my usual hobo dress. The two of them say fuck all to me and eventually I left. Moral-Stupidity and laziness aren't personal.

-Several years ago I had screaming abdominal pain in the middle of the night. My wife took me to the ER looking like a sleepy hobo. The only person there who didn't treat me like a drug seeker was a kindly old volunteer. Moral-sometimes thin slicing is incorrect.

-When I went to buy a car for my wife last year, the only salesman who took the initiative to walk up to me was a young black guy. Moral-some millennials have initiative.

WTF is my point? Because the firearms industry employs human beings, I think it's like every other industry.

[LSP552]

This is very much like politics. The democrats know they will get 90+% of the vote from blacks, so they really don't have to do crap except promise some b.s. The Republicans know at best they have to work hard to get 7% of 12%.....and that is such a small number that it isn't worth the investment. And what does the black community get.....totally marginalized. Yet somehow it is the Republicans fault. That is how I look at the gun industry. It's the Republican Party. An industry that would LOVE to have much more black participation...but has to balance that with how much work do you want to put in for a group that does not seem interested. Honestly.....look at how women are being treated in the gun industry. An investment has been made in recruitment, and women are responding, and the industry is changing. A woman's experience in a gun shop these days is far different than twenty years ago. Counter folks who treat women like crap these days will not remain employed long. Shops that are not adapting to how to work with female customers will die the death that pure capitalism deals. Right now...the reality by the numbers is that a young black man dressed in anything looking like popular street wear will be assumed to be "wrong"....because the percentages make it that way. Are there some real racists out there in the industry. Sure there are. If that is the case, who wants to give them money anyways. I don't. If I was in a shop and heard a bunch of N word crap and racist commentary from employees, I would be gone in a minute with my money. The thing is, that is not what you are hearing. What you hear is totally hatred of the progressive liberal agenda. That agenda is one that stereotypes people in the gun industry as the most evil creatures on earth. So....when a person walks in who has a 9 out of 10 chance of being one of those liberal progressives who demonize the gun industry......is it racist that they are not warm and welcoming but are suspicious instead. I think it is stereotyping, but not racist. That stereotyping comes from reality.

Now my biggest issue. When any group constantly wants to self identify as special, you will never be treated as equal. When everything has to have some underlying issue with specialness....equality will never be achieved. Getting stereotyped at a business doesn't make you special, and it doesn't make people racist. I went into a car dealership to buy my Raptor. In an unusual situation, none of the salesmen would talk to me....who all happened to be black. Finally a guy asked if I needed anything. I asked about the price on the Raptor. Guy sort of huffed, walked back to an office, came back and said $54,000 with a sarcastic tone indicative that based on my homeless appearance didn't think I could swing it. I asked about any incentives or financing deals (indicating I wanted to buy it). Guy says..."No" and walks off. So here we have a case of a young black man in a suit assuming I could not afford a vehicle because of my appearance. Do I think he was a racist? No, I think he made a mistake in his stereotyping. He "profiled" me wrong. It gave me a chance to go home and research that exact vehicle and get a car fax history. I returned the next day. A much older black salesman helped me. The sales manager was shocked when he found out I tried to buy the truck the previous day. The salesman who did help me was heavily experienced in sales his whole life. We talked a lot. He said these younger guys assume to much based on what people are wearing. In this case, they do a lot of business with black customers. The older salesmen said the younger guys are looking at crap like what basketball shoes guys are wearing or the brands of their clothing. The older guy said "I learned a long time ago, especially working in L.A., never assume". We did a good negotiation, and when the guy asked about my credit I said "why, I am paying cash". He started laughing and said he couldn't wait to screw with the other guy who blew me off that the guy let an easy cash sale walk. So...I was at a dealership where I was a minority race customer. Most of the sales staff is Black or Hispanic (never saw a white male sales person). So are they all racist? Thought of "racism" never entered my mind. What did pop in is that they made assumptions based on past experience. Obviously, they had never seen some old bad Santa looking guy in flip flops, shorts and a grungy T-shirt drop cash on a very expensive specialty vehicle. Had I been wearing a nice suit, or in my area, golf clothes, they would have been on me like flies and showing me new Vette's. Just like the local gun shop would treat anyone of any color who came in a conservative well tailored business suit (or in the gun industry a LE or military uniform). Again...perception and profiling based on experience and not race.



Much truth in Darryl's post. My wife wanted a corvette in 1992 as a 10 year anniversary present. She knew exactly what she wanted and we went to a local Chevy dealer one Sat, dressed in normal summer knock-around shorts and t-shirts. We happened to be driving my old fishing/hunting truck with typical Chevy paint of the period. We walked inside to the Corvettes and couldn't even get a sales person to look at us. There were 3 standing around BSing and we were the only customer in the place. It became a game with us, trying to ask a question, but we were truly ignored based on dress and the ratty truck we drove up in.

We left and a week later paid cash for a Corvette from a competitor. She did write a letter to the owner explaining their mistake.

Appearances can be deceiving, and sometimes we make mistakes in our assumptions.

[Robinson]

I'm sure the problem described by the OP exists, but I gladly don't see it locally. I live in a suburb about 20 miles NE of Atlanta and I have three nice gun shop/ranges near me. Now it's possible that it happens, but I have not seen the described behavior/treatment of black people in the places I frequent. One reason might be that a healthy percentage of their customers are black, and at least one has a black employee. The employees I've dealt with in these three shops have been friendly and professional. It is clear they are making an effort to be somewhat upscale and welcoming -- the places are very clean and well lit with a nice sitting area etc... But I can probably drive a half hour North and walk into a business that doesn't have the same standards.

The only exception to the above was this one dude who worked the counter at a LGS who kept running on about his combat experiences. Since I'm not a veteran I didn't make an issue of it, but his ramblings didn't pass the smell test and he didn't last long.

I guess my point is that while there are still some of the "good ol' boy" gun shops around, it is becoming more and more common to see businesses that have their act together -- at least around my location.

[Dagga Boy]

Any business staffed by hobbyist or enthusiasts is going to be full of pompous assholes.
Try buying something from a RC Hobby Shop.
Just like a nerdy gun store.

Here is much of the problem. It's not "Racism" or "Sexism", it's an employee problem if people are not getting treated right at shops....and this is a huge industry issue. There was a time in America where working at a gun shop was a decent job. This was prior to shotgun news, and now the internet where you could actually make some decent profit. People could spend a significant part of their life employed there as an actual career, and thus build experience that lessens mistakes. My truck buying experience was a lot like many folks gun buying. The guy who ended up selling me the truck complained that all his younger counter parts "just want to sit on their damn phones all day". He said he can't because he has a family to support and can't afford to not make sales because he is goofing around and not selling cars.
Now let's look at my LGS....Jackson Armory. Old school feel. Owned and run by guys with deep Confederacy roots as descendants of a couple of very famous Confederate generals....yet, I have never seen a minority, woman, or anyone treated like anything but a possible new member to their family. Funny how the "Rebel flag" loving guys are the ones who are the ones I have seen with the least level of any kind of negativity towards anyone....likely due to education and prior experience with the owner being a retired well known Judge and GM a retired well respected MD. The guys who work there are actual grown ups. It is a real job, and they take it seriously. What is everyone's biggest complaint...they are expensive. Yep, when you want good, competent, well educated, and actual SME's behind the counter...there is a cost for professional help. Of course their customer base is not the sitting on their smart phone price shopping in the store on who has the best price on the latest Taurus. The folks there will likely talk you out of a Taurus Judge, but not talk you out of a good purchase.

This is a lot like Europe. Working at a gun shop there is a real career. People stay for whole lifetimes. Employee education and training is huge. Employees get real training from firearms and accessory companies. Do I want to be Europe...NO, but we could learn some things. I am in shops all the time and the biggest issue I see is they are often populated by folks who talk out their asses and are heavily influenced by internet gun media. They haven't read Keith, McGivern, Cooper, Fitz, Skelton, or even more modern folks like Spaulding. Nope...Yeager, Pincus, Brownie, and various other You Tube and blog stuff I am not even aware of. I hear some of the stupisd crap ever from behind the counter at shops. It's not "Racism", it's simply poor business stuff. The most important thing I think I do for Aimpoint is the few times I am allowed to go out and do employee training at shops. Nets great results, and the employees do a much better job for their customers.


Appearances can be deceiving, and sometimes we make mistakes in our assumptions.

And this is the issue. Its assumptions based on prior experience. This is what needs to change on both sides of the counter. The experiences need to be better. As more women come into a world that is really "NASCAR", the counter folks experience with them builds. In a decade we will see a huge difference in how women are treated in shops than we did 20 years ago. Hopefully, the experiences of minorities will also change. As more minorities embrace the gun industry, as the Colin Noir's become normal instead of an anomaly, as minorities start to change their political outlook, the industry will respond. As we see great discussions about Constitutional values by minorities in the media, things will get better.

During an exchange on Facebook with a social justice warrior who went on a couple rants about me being a racist because I discussed racial issues I brought up the point that if you start calling everyone racist, we lose the ability to spot real racists. Cops in general are very good at spotting criminals of any race because they have spent enough time with large groups of folks that they know the difference between the good folks and the criminals who simply share a similar complexion. They are not racist, they hate criminals and most of the time are pretty good at telling the difference....racists don't see a difference. It is a pretty heavy label to make stereotyping that every group does to "Discrimination and Sexism". Women themselves are changing the how they are stereotyped. Minorities need to do the same. That is how true equality is achieved and how stereotypes are destroyed.

The industry as a whole needs to change a lot on both sides of the counter. Money is the driver. If folks go to a shop that sucks, you need to go elsewhere to one that doesn't. WARNING...the shop that does not suck is likely going to have higher prices. Spend the money to help them maintain a standard you like. Trust me, the places that treat GardoneVT like crap, are likely fairly crappy across the board. The same folks that "don't like blacks" likely have a laundry list of folks they don't like. Don't spend money. I walk in to places all the time where I am ignored, talked down to, treated like I am stupid because I am on the customer side of the counter at a gun shop...where chances are very good that I am far ahead of the ass behind the glass in firearms knowledge and experience. Just walk out and take your money elsewhere. My new standard is easy. You want to sell to me at retail....you make it worth my time, I ll make it worth your effort. If you want to treat me like crap, or are an idiot, at any business...well, you lost a sale to Amazon.

[Grey]

Echoing nyeti on it being a service culture problem. Walked into a subaru dealership and wanted to pick up a new car. The initial lady was great with test drives and all that and then the older manager shows up to talk price. Immediately blows me off saying they have nothing on the lot for less than 35k. I was wearing shorts,flip flops and a t shirt. Did I think he was being a dick because I'm a minority? Nope, he was being a dick because he didn't think I could afford a car. Bought a new outback the next day from another dealer that didn't assume I had no cash cause I was dressed like a bum.

It's not just the auto or gun industry. It's any service line in America. You are surprised when you get good service. In other countries that I have lived in you are surprised when you get bad service.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The main thing I'm getting from this thread is that you all need to buy some god damn clothes.

[Dagga Boy]

The main thing I'm getting from this thread is that you all need to buy some god damn clothes.

The reason I can buy HK's and nice vehicles is because I don't waste it on clothes. Clothes are not what I consider "Investments".

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I might share an anecdote for grins. When my mom was alive I would visit her in Florida in WPB. So I would visit local gun stores. Some were just fine. One had a fake no parking sign in front that said: PERVERTS PARKING ONLY. Obviously I had to check it out. Inside, the boss was a fat old guy sitting on a stool in floppy shorts with his sack in his jock hanging out. Bye, Bye and left. Obviously, this does not speak to the greater theoretical problem but I thought I would share for grins. Yuk!

The industry mags have been full of how to attract women shooters. San Antonio TV has had positive mention of the Girls with Guns group. The local Cabela's is running a bunch of firearms owners seminars with one for women by that group. One thing that is relevant is that ranges need good restrooms. I read that business goes up about 20 to 30% if you do that for women. Some of the outdoor ranges around here are grim. Some are ok.

About minority views. I find the Hispanic population in San Antonio is not virulently antigun. Neighbors. officers and match participants are gun friendly for the most part. We do get African-American shooters and officers. It is expensive which is a deterrent for anyone not reasonably in the dough. I used to teach a night class and found the African-Americans weren't unfriendly to legal ownership. This is subtle. One women said she supports the right to own but wants a crack down on illegal guns. This can translate in some minds to being an anti if for instance they think UBCs are a good idea. Questions on gun control indicate support for legal ownership but tighter controls on illegals guns. For the gun world, proposals for the latter are seen as horrific and stops the listening to folks who want both. On the other side, support for tighter controls is taken as support for total bans - which isn't true either.

Conservatives do have a problem of being seen as ethnically biased and with some justification. That interacts with whom you vote for. Unfortunately, with liberal candidates nowadays you get gun control also. If the NRA had its act together it would take the literature on the Civil Rights movement being protected by guns and the statements of folks like Malcom X supporting the 2nd (with the racist history of gun control) and run that on the media. Wayne LaP just denouncing Obama is insufficient.

Also if you get a mixed opinion piece by someone like Charles Blow (a liberal, African-American NYT columnist), praise the good pro-gun stuff and don't freak out on things which are part of the anti-agenda. Partial reinforcement is useful.

[HCM]

The main thing I'm getting from this thread is that you all need to buy some god damn clothes.

Clothes ????

5458

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Should you being carrying when you do this?

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/article/Naked-woman-rages-through-Waffle-House-in-Georgia-6761310.php

Clothes - who needs them.

[Jeep]

That is beyond absurd. What, exactly, are you suggesting? That anyone who learns from CodeBabes (https://codebabes.com/)is on the spectrum?

Autism is characterized by "difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts". Just because your software developers don't like you doesn't mean they're autistic.

I'm not even sure where to begin a counter to this idea. You think that because I have degrees in computer science, I must be a basement-dweller virgin that has only seen vaginas in the moves? You think that in my programming classes, I never have to deal with parents preparing for a child? You think that in my classes, I have automatons who are immune to emotional breakdowns? Of course, the mere notion that engineering students respond to stimulus like normal humans is ridiculous!

No, obviously, anyone interested in computers must have Asperger's at minimum. There's clearly no money to be made in this field. There's no interesting problems to be solved in this field. No future in computers whatever.


Chance:

I sincerely apologize for offending you. It was not my intent to suggest that all or most computer science professionals exhibit certain autistic-like traits. What I was trying to say--and obviously failed in doing so--is that known differences between the sexes (in that example) can and will translate into different outcomes in the job market.

Nor do I look down on the many people with Aspergers-like traits. Not only can those traits be very useful in some occupations, I have a number of relatives with them.

In any event, you have my apologies

[Peally]

Clothes ????

5458

I literally own one pair of shoes, one pair of boots, and 4 pairs of pants. I just bought an RPR and plan to pimp that baby out. This image speaks to me.

[Savage Hands]

http://cdn.meme.am/images/9617853.jpg

[Savage Hands]

One thing that would probably help would be a black guy like you Gardone, working at the LGS.


I was mistaken for a Black guy by a customer, is that close enough? :cool:

[Jared]

Ok, I'll offer up a sampling of the three closest gunshops to me. The closest one is a nice looking new shop that is well staffed (plenty of employees). They do a brisk business on Gunbroker, so they tend to stock some items that the other two won't (think SIG's and HK's, as well as the occasional higher end CZ. Stuff that most folks around here frankly won't buy because it's expensive.) This is the newest of the three, and probably the friendliest overall. They are also usually pretty damn busy, and if they ask if you need help and you say you're just browsing, they will move on to the next person, although they will come back to you when they can.

Second one is the oldest. It's staffed adequately most of the time. Basically, they don't pay much, so the employees are older an retired from other jobs where they got good pensions. You normally have to ask them to get up from their crossword or whatever to come help, but they will help you. They know me well, as I pretty much grew up going there with my dad. I've seen more of the stores owner than I have some of my relatives.

Third store is relatively new (less than ten years old). One man operation. I started going there because he had some really good prices on stuff. I quit going there after he went on an extended rant that was one part racist, one part misogynistic, and one part anti-Semitic (maybe anti-Semitic and racist are the same, I'm honestly not sure, and I mean no offense to anyone by splitting them up). I didn't give a shit how good dudes prices were, I wasn't going to stand through another one of those.

So, of the three, shop number two is where I've spent the most money, and it's probably where I'll continue to spend the most because it's comfortable for me. I've been going there for as long as I can remember. Shop number one will probably get an ever growing percentage of my gun money as time passes because they are a very very good group of people to do business with. Shop three is dead to me.

I'll add this: If I was going to take a prospective new gun owner to any of the three, it'd be shop number one. Triply so if that person was a female or a minority, because half their sales staff is female, and I've been in there while they helped people pick out guns and witnessed their approach.

[Chance]

Chance:

I sincerely apologize for offending you. It was not my intent to suggest that all or most computer science professionals exhibit certain autistic-like traits. What I was trying to say--and obviously failed in doing so--is that known differences between the sexes (in that example) can and will translate into different outcomes in the job market.

Nor do I look down on the many people with Aspergers-like traits. Not only can those traits be very useful in some occupations, I have a number of relatives with them.

In any event, you have my apologies

Ha! That's funny, because I actually wandered back around to the thread to apologize for being a dick. Please excuse my remarks - that just struck a chord for some reason.

But with regards to biological differences between genders, I'm still dubious. While women make up a slim percentage in my field, all of the ones I've met are simply top notch. If anything, I'm kind of guessing men are just more comfortable with phoning it in, but that's my idle speculation.


But since the Greatest Gun Salesman In The History Of Ever has been in office, the demographics on both sides of the counter have changed dramatically.


This sums up everything I could say. A great many people had zero reason for interest in guns before the aura of the "forbidden" came around. I suspect that as the market grows, the mindset of gun dealers will change as well.

[Dagga Boy]

Ok, I'll offer up a sampling of the three closest gunshops to me. The closest one is a nice looking new shop that is well staffed (plenty of employees). They do a brisk business on Gunbroker, so they tend to stock some items that the other two won't (think SIG's and HK's, as well as the occasional higher end CZ. Stuff that most folks around here frankly won't buy because it's expensive.) This is the newest of the three, and probably the friendliest overall. They are also usually pretty damn busy, and if they ask if you need help and you say you're just browsing, they will move on to the next person, although they will come back to you when they can.

Second one is the oldest. It's staffed adequately most of the time. Basically, they don't pay much, so the employees are older an retired from other jobs where they got good pensions. You normally have to ask them to get up from their crossword or whatever to come help, but they will help you. They know me well, as I pretty much grew up going there with my dad. I've seen more of the stores owner than I have some of my relatives.

Third store is relatively new (less than ten years old). One man operation. I started going there because he had some really good prices on stuff. I quit going there after he went on an extended rant that was one part racist, one part misogynistic, and one part anti-Semitic (maybe anti-Semitic and racist are the same, I'm honestly not sure, and I mean no offense to anyone by splitting them up). I didn't give a shit how good dudes prices were, I wasn't going to stand through another one of those.

So, of the three, shop number two is where I've spent the most money, and it's probably where I'll continue to spend the most because it's comfortable for me. I've been going there for as long as I can remember. Shop number one will probably get an ever growing percentage of my gun money as time passes because they are a very very good group of people to do business with. Shop three is dead to me.

I'll add this: If I was going to take a prospective new gun owner to any of the three, it'd be shop number one. Triply so if that person was a female or a minority, because half their sales staff is female, and I've been in there while they helped people pick out guns and witnessed their approach.

And this post is what will fix this with pure Capitalism. Store 3 will not likely be there in ten years.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The reason I can buy HK's and nice vehicles is because I don't waste it on clothes. Clothes are not what I consider "Investments".
You know, I'd intended that post as a joke, but now that I've read this response it occurs to me that actually, this thread has a bunch of stories of people getting poor service on account of their dress - including one case of poor MEDICAL service.

I would therefore argue that in fact, clothes are a pretty efficient investment, because it's so inexpensive to look middle-class or slightly above that you really only have to have a couple of extra trips to different stores as you search for better service before the cost of the wardrobe is less than the value of the time you'd be wasting.

And relative to an expensive vehicle, of course, which depreciates rapidly and may or may not have equivalent knock-on effects...I think it's hard not to conclude clothing is potentially a very smart investment.

[Jeep]

But with regards to biological differences between genders, I'm still dubious. While women make up a slim percentage in my field, all of the ones I've met are simply top notch.

I don't know whether there is a biological difference in computer science, but I think there probably is. However, that would be on average and you will also have some outliers. It also make sense that those outliers would be top notch (because, again on average, they would need to be to go into a field dominated by the other sex).

Given a normal distribution, one would assume that some fields would be dominated by men, some by women and some by neither--which corresponds fairly much with what we can observe every day.

Unfortunately our political masters aren't too fond of reality and keep trying to remake it, which tends not to work too well.

[Dagga Boy]

You know, I'd intended that post as a joke, but now that I've read this response it occurs to me that actually, this thread has a bunch of stories of people getting poor service on account of their dress - including one case of poor MEDICAL service.

I would therefore argue that in fact, clothes are a pretty efficient investment, because it's so inexpensive to look middle-class or slightly above that you really only have to have a couple of extra trips to different stores as you search for better service before the cost of the wardrobe is less than the value of the time you'd be wasting.

And relative to an expensive vehicle, of course, which depreciates rapidly and may or may not have equivalent knock-on effects...I think it's hard not to conclude clothing is potentially a very smart investment.

Well.... that is an opinion;). I wear a suit or tux when it is what is required for work or an event. I am not "up dressing" to shop for a truck, guns, or other general NASCAR items. I am not shaving my circle beard for that either (I cut it last year at SHOT for an interview). Sales people's job is to effectively transfer wealth from my pocket to the entity they work for. My job is not to impress them. I actually find I get better service and price from getting a little picky about not spending money with heavily judgmental people. Seems the same here, and it is basic capitalism that will fix "Discrimination & Sexism". There is also not being stupid......I don't wear overcoats in summer to the gun shop. I go way out of my way to ensure that LE folks know I am not like I appear. I am more courteous than I often need to be to people, because I understand my appearance can put people off. I will take responsibility for that. But when it comes to simple sales.....sorry, my job as a customer is not to impress the sales staff.

[SouthNarc]

The reason I can buy HK's and nice vehicles is because I don't waste it on clothes. Clothes are not what I consider "Investments".

Gun guys will spend money on gun clothes but not grown up clothes. They won't bat an eyelash on dropping $700 on an Arcteryx shell.

[JAD]

Gun guys will spend money on gun clothes but not grown up clothes. They won't bat an eyelash on dropping $700 on an Arcteryx shell.

Watch who you're stereotyping [emoji6]. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160116/93951baa0adb94fd5d552fc9e892438b.jpg That's a Suzhou hotel closet full of Boss and BB. I look /foyne/.

[23JAZ]

I'm not even sure where to begin a counter to this idea. You think that because I have degrees in computer science, I must be a basement-dweller virgin that has only seen vaginas in the moves?[/QUOTE]

Holy shit I spit up my beer laughing at that one!

No not every programmer is like the guys on the Big Bang theory but it is a stereo type. And it became a stereotype because it is very common. BTW I love Big Bang Theory.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well.... that is an opinion;). I wear a suit or tux when it is what is required for work or an event. I am not "up dressing" to shop for a truck, guns, or other general NASCAR items. I am not shaving my circle beard for that either (I cut it last year at SHOT for an interview). Sales people's job is to effectively transfer wealth from my pocket to the entity they work for. My job is not to impress them. I actually find I get better service and price from getting a little picky about not spending money with heavily judgmental people. Seems the same here, and it is basic capitalism that will fix "Discrimination & Sexism". There is also not being stupid......I don't wear overcoats in summer to the gun shop. I go way out of my way to ensure that LE folks know I am not like I appear. I am more courteous than I often need to be to people, because I understand my appearance can put people off. I will take responsibility for that. But when it comes to simple sales.....sorry, my job as a customer is not to impress the sales staff.
Well, we all have to make decisions about where we're going to be strategic. I don't butter up anybody I work with even if I think it might help my career; I'm just wired that way and no matter what the consequences, I'm not changing it. I know I'm not being strategic in my approach and I accept the results.

But there's been a lot of mentions in this thread, including from you, about the poor service you've gotten on account of your clothes. If wearing those clothes is more important to you than good service then obviously that's good decision-making. You get to control how they profile you; only you can decide whether having that control is something you care about.

[BN]

Be the "Grey Man". ;)

[RevolverRob]

Mastery of social skills, appearance, cultural norms, communication, etc. - Is probably more important than shooting well. If you don't care if people judge you negatively, good. I for one give pretty much zero rat fucks about what people think. But I still make an effort.

This morning, I saw a kid in his early twenties on the bus to the university, wearing fucking flannel pajamas. He had an iPhone, a pair of house shoes on, and a backpack that probably had an expensive laptop and/or tablet in it. If I was going to pick a doofus to victimize, he'd be #1. In addition, if I were going to pick a person to hire for a job, he'd be #NotGettingTheJob. If he came into my gunshop, I would have smiled and given him the time of day, just like I would have on the bus this morning. He wasn't looking to impress and that's fine...but he wasn't impressive either. And if someone, who cares more about that, than me, was an asshole to him...I couldn't really blame them.

I guess my point is, you can have you appearance how you want and act how you want, but you live with the consequences too. Or as I tell people these days, "Is that how you want to be dressed when Elvis comes back?"

-Rob

[Maple Syrup Actual]

1) the Elvis line rules

2) I have a picture somewhere of my grandfather, wearing wool pants, a dress shirt, and a vest. His hair is greased and combed. He's gardening.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone has the right to look however they please.

I won't be wearing a suit at SHOT this year because I've been specifically asked not to by my publisher.

[olstyn]

Gun guys will spend money on gun clothes but not grown up clothes. They won't bat an eyelash on dropping $700 on an Arcteryx shell.

What makes Arcteryx stuff actually worth that much money? I've never understood it, and thus haven't considered buying any.

[Trooper224]

I don't dress to the nines every time I go out, but I do like nice clothes. I believe if you want to be taken seriously you should dress the part. The most casual I ever get is a polo shirt in the summer. Athletic shoes are to be worn during athletics, or at the gym. They aren't for every day wear. Same for t-shirts, at the gym or mowing the lawn. Two places a man should always wear a suit is a wedding and a funeral. When my father in law passed, other than me, the only two men who showed up in a suit were my two boys. Honestly, I couldn't have been more assured that I'd done something right as their father. The world has become so casual that it takes little effort to look put together. I don't believe in judging a book by it's cover, but I'm also enough of a realist to recognize how the world works. Dress like a sweaty ball sack? Don't be surprised when no one wants to touch you.

[Drang]

Gun guys will spend money on gun clothes but not grown up clothes. They won't bat an eyelash on dropping $700 on an Arcteryx shell.

I hyperventilate just thinking about dropping $700 on an Arctyrex shell!

[Tamara]

What makes Arcteryx stuff actually worth that much money? I've never understood it, and thus haven't considered buying any.

Here (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-the-rich-were-so-rich-vimes-reasoned).

[PPGMD]

Here (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-the-rich-were-so-rich-vimes-reasoned).

The Dead Bird makes some good stuff, I even own a couple of their items, but there are brands that last just as long that are cheaper. Granted it might have as optimized of a design, but they still work.

The two things that Arcteryx makes that few make a good option for are rain pants, and their hard shell gloves.

[Grey]

When it comes to sale situations there are so many other places that will take my money I really follow nyeti in that it's not my job to dress up to get serives. That is just perpetuating the judgmental attitude of sales staff. That subaru dealer called me back a week later (the nice female associate) and tried to see if I would come back in. Told her I bought the exact car I was looking at on their lot the day after my experience with them. She said she'd tell that dumb manager he lost the sale. I can walk into a McDonald's in Japan and ask for an ice cream cone and they will remake it until the ice cream is perfectly straight, the difference in the service staff between the US and other places is astounding.

[SeriousStudent]

Agree with Tam and Terry.

I have a pair of M.L. Leddy handmade boots that are over 40 years old. They are made of sharkskin and elephant ear. They cost me well over a month's pay back in mumble-mumble, and I still wear them.

Same with my MSR stove, and my Gregory backpack. Both well into their 30's, and still in their prime.

[Chance]

I get dressed up for exactly two occasions: funerals, and job interviews. Clothes tend to be a useful litmus test for me, as if people won't give me the time of day due to how I'm dressed, we're usually not going to get along well.

[olstyn]

Here (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-the-rich-were-so-rich-vimes-reasoned).

Oh, I absolutely subscribe to that principle; in fact, that's why I quit buying cheap boots a long time ago, but I feel like there's an 80/20 rule situation going on here. A Columbia jacket will cost 1/5 as much, probably last nearly as long, and give most of the performance. Hard to justify the Arcteryx unless you're an extreme usage corner case IMO. But then, $700 is a lot of money to me, so maybe my perspective is off.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I bought an Arcteryx Alpha in about 2006-7. I wore it constantly, for everything. I live in Vancouver so here you can take one to a fancy restaurant...showing up in Arcteryx is like showing up in Gucci. But of course I also used it for all kinds of outdoor stuff.

Anyway, after 8 years it was getting a little worn so I figured I'd send it back for a refresh if possible. I'd worn it as rain gear on my motorcycle for a lot of 80mph days, plus I'd had it on mountains in 50mph winds for long periods of time, and in deserts...it was still fully functional but frayed a little around the cuffs, and the drawstring entry points on the waist, plus there was this tiny spot on the back near the logo where it was maybe delaminating a bit or something, about the size of a dime.

So I emailed them and asked about getting some repairs done. They were very concerned about the possible delamination spot and asked me to send it in. I dropped it off because their factory isn't far from here.

A week later they called and said they didn't have my size in that particular jacket and did I want a different one, because the goretex should never delaminate, ever. I asked if they had a Leaf Alpha and they said no, but the Gen 2s in Wolf were almost ready if I could wait a couple of weeks.

I paid $650 for the original jacket and got 7-8 years out of it, and could have worn it for another 7-8 if I wanted. I got a brand new jacket which presumably will last a good 7-8 years, and likely more. It therefore costs me something like $40 annually to wear a top of the line Arcteryx hard shell.

I probably spend more than that on coffee in a week.

[Dagga Boy]

I bought an Arcteryx Alpha in about 2006-7. I wore it constantly, for everything. I live in Vancouver so here you can take one to a fancy restaurant...showing up in Arcteryx is like showing up in Gucci. But of course I also used it for all kinds of outdoor stuff.

Anyway, after 8 years it was getting a little worn so I figured I'd send it back for a refresh if possible. I'd worn it as rain gear on my motorcycle for a lot of 80mph days, plus I'd had it on mountains in 50mph winds for long periods of time, and in deserts...it was still fully functional but frayed a little around the cuffs, and the drawstring entry points on the waist, plus there was this tiny spot on the back near the logo where it was maybe delaminating a bit or something, about the size of a dime.

So I emailed them and asked about getting some repairs done. They were very concerned about the possible delamination spot and asked me to send it in. I dropped it off because their factory isn't far from here.

A week later they called and said they didn't have my size in that particular jacket and did I want a different one, because the goretex should never delaminate, ever. I asked if they had a Leaf Alpha and they said no, but the Gen 2s in Wolf were almost ready if I could wait a couple of weeks.

I paid $650 for the original jacket and got 7-8 years out of it, and could have worn it for another 7-8 if I wanted. I got a brand new jacket which presumably will last a good 7-8 years, and likely more. It therefore costs me something like $40 annually to wear a top of the line Arcteryx hard shell.

I probably spend more than that on coffee in a week.

I wear an Arc'teryx jacket often...does that put me back in the good graces. I dress pretty much out of the Duluth catalog. I am not wear poor quality clothes. I also wear a full set of Arcteryx pants and shirt for training gear. The knees on the pants are fairly thrashed...with bothers many that someone would actually thrash the stuff. I have no issues with Arcteryx quality, but for the price, the sizing should be bespoke as far as letting me send measurements and they are cut to those specs.

So....I walk into a car dealership wearing an Arcteryx jacket and a Rolex....is that my fault that the 23 year old guy in a suit doesn't recognize that maybe I can afford to buy a new vehicle?

[ubervic]

Oh, I absolutely subscribe to that principle; in fact, that's why I quit buying cheap boots a long time ago, but I feel like there's an 80/20 rule situation going on here. A Columbia jacket will cost 1/5 as much, probably last nearly as long, and give most of the performance. Hard to justify the Arcteryx unless you're an extreme usage corner case IMO. But then, $700 is a lot of money to me, so maybe my perspective is off.

BINGO

I have zero problem paying for good quality. But my lifestyle does not include nearly enough activity in severe environments that would justify the cost of an Arcteryx article of clothing. My purchasing Kuhl or Columbia works just fine from a cost/performance ratio.

Back to the notion of judging one's clothing as a qualifier. I sold cars for a bit many years ago and learned quickly that one's clothing (and general appearance) is not at all a reliable indicator of ability or willingness to purchase. I worked with many a well-off but disheveled-looking car buyer who drove away the same day that he walked in, whereas quite a few seemingly well-heeled customers could not afford to do the deal and left empty-handed.

[Joe in PNG]

Sales is a business with a pretty high turnover- one wonders just how many salespeople are able to stay around long enough to learn that many of their assumptions are wrong, that you can't judge a book by it's cover?

[Chance]

Sales is a business with a pretty high turnover- one wonders just how many salespeople are able to stay around long enough to learn that many of their assumptions are wrong, that you can't judge a book by it's cover?

Sales jobs have high turnover because there are a lot of bad salesmen. I've often wondered if you have to be born a salesman, as their gift for gab seems to be something innate, rather than learned.

[Joe in PNG]

Sales jobs have high turnover because there are a lot of bad salesmen. I've often wondered if you have to be born a salesman, as their gift for gab seems to be something innate, rather than learned.
That's very likely. I've got a few really good salespeople in my family- my Mum and one of my aunts are very successful real estate salespeople, even during the crash a few years ago. Both are very very outgoing, friendly, extroverted people, pretty much willing to talk to anyone and everyone. After all, the person who's just looking now may come back in a year or two and want to look them up when they're ready to move down.

The bad salesperson just wants the obvious big commission sale, and is afraid to waste their time.

[olstyn]

Sales jobs have high turnover because there are a lot of bad salesmen. I've often wondered if you have to be born a salesman, as their gift for gab seems to be something innate, rather than learned.

Having worked in sales at one point (computers), I think I can give some insight into this. I could talk to people just fine, and I'm an introvert. That part can be learned. My problem was that it takes a certain "moral flexibility" to be willing to push all the extra crap that customers neither want nor need and be happy about it, but that's what your boss always wants you to do. (I once had an assistant sales manager butt in on one of my sales and try to squeeze out a few more $ in profit by telling the customer that they'd get 30% better image quality from their photo printer with a gold-plated USB cable vs a normal one; lies like that were commonplace, and pissed me off every time I encountered them.) I was unhappy most days doing it, because the boss always wanted me to get them to buy an add-on service plan that's almost pure profit. Most customers will never need those. I made the moral compromise of typically trying to get them to buy the low- to mid-grade plans, because that way if they did have a problem, they'd be covered, but they weren't wasting quite as much money. If they refused, I didn't go high-pressure on them, because I felt that that was rude and inappropriate. I was not my boss' favorite salesman, but most of my customers left happy, and I sold enough of the low-end service plans to at least not get in trouble.

I can't speak for how sales jobs work in other industries, but I think it's more that the corporations typically train people to be pushy, high-pressure jerks in a misguided attempt to maximize profits. At CompUSA, anyway, the pay structure changed every few months, too. The sales staff would very quickly figure out how to "game" whatever the newest system was, and then in another few months, they'd change it again in order to attempt to pay us less and/or pressure us to sell more. It's a fairly stressful, poisonous work environment if you have any moral fiber, and I think that contributes to the high turnover as much as any other factor.

[GardoneVT]

For those in the gun business, how is compensation normally done for the people behind the counter?

Do they get hourly plus bonus? Flat pay? If the former, do they get seasonal bonuses for selling slow moving or specific products ? (As in "Get an Extra $200 commission if you sell the most Taurus pistols this month" ,etc). Are store staff rewarded for selling accessories over end products? ( hence 'buy a Glock' because the selling store has extra mags for G17s and not for VP9s)

[Tamara]

Oh, I absolutely subscribe to that principle; in fact, that's why I quit buying cheap boots a long time ago, but I feel like there's an 80/20 rule situation going on here. A Columbia jacket will cost 1/5 as much, probably last nearly as long, and give most of the performance. Hard to justify the Arcteryx unless you're an extreme usage corner case IMO. But then, $700 is a lot of money to me, so maybe my perspective is off.

I feel ya. I only own one bit of Dead Bird accoutrement myself; heck, even the higher-end Columbia stuff gets to price points that make me wince. When I bought my newest Columbia parka in '13, it replaced one that I'd worn for ten years and which needed the zipper replaced; some old stains and a burn hole or two made me decide it was time to get a new one.

Last fall a friend gifted me with a Kitanica Mark V that he'd shrunk out of (a princely gift!) and when I saw what they retailed for, I nearly dropped my teeth. Nice coat, but definitely not the sort of thing I'd buy for myself because, frankly, it's way nicer than I need.

(Although, side note, I'm cold-natured and walk outdoors frequently in winter, so do I tend to buy gear that's way heavier-duty than normal. I figure if winter apparel is designed to cope with the weather on the north face of the Eiger, a mile-long walk in a Broad Ripple winter should be a doddle.)

[olstyn]

When I bought my newest Columbia parka in '13, it replaced one that I'd worn for ten years and which needed the zipper replaced; some old stains and a burn hole or two made me decide it was time to get a new one.

Columbia stuff all has a lifetime warranty IIRC. I'm effectively still wearing the one I had in high school, 20 years later. I've broken the zipper twice. The first time, they replaced the whole jacket, the second time it was repaired. I haven't worn out the repaired one yet, but when I eventually do, I expect they'll probably replace it at that point.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I wear an Arc'teryx jacket often...does that put me back in the good graces. I dress pretty much out of the Duluth catalog. I am not wear poor quality clothes. I also wear a full set of Arcteryx pants and shirt for training gear. The knees on the pants are fairly thrashed...with bothers many that someone would actually thrash the stuff. I have no issues with Arcteryx quality, but for the price, the sizing should be bespoke as far as letting me send measurements and they are cut to those specs.

So....I walk into a car dealership wearing an Arcteryx jacket and a Rolex....is that my fault that the 23 year old guy in a suit doesn't recognize that maybe I can afford to buy a new vehicle?

No, of course not, and it's not that you have any obligation to impress a car salesman (of all people).

There was just a lot of talk about people going places in dirty shirts and getting lousy service and it occurred to me that it seemed to be taking two to do that particular tango.

[BaiHu]

Sales jobs have high turnover because there are a lot of bad salesmen. I've often wondered if you have to be born a salesman, as their gift for gab seems to be something innate, rather than learned.


Sales is a business with a pretty high turnover- one wonders just how many salespeople are able to stay around long enough to learn that many of their assumptions are wrong, that you can't judge a book by it's cover?
Management, management, management.

I did high end audio sales (Bang & Olufsen) for a year and here's a short list of my experience over that year.

1. Hired and shipped out for training.
2. Came back and found the manager stealing sales from salesmen.
3. Found the manager "locking" systems so salesmen couldn't figure out how to change a CD for a customer so they could listen to the song they wanted demo'd.
4. Collected enough evidence that I got the manager fired. Became defacto manager during Christmas.
5. Ran their best Christmas without management pay/title.
6. All the while I was the top 10 salesman in the nation while selling in the worst store in the nation.
7. I tried to apply for the management position as they had not had one for 3 months. I didn't have an MBA, so no dice. Psssh!
8. They hired a manager. They asked me to train him [emoji13]
9. Now I teach martial arts for a living.

At no point could management or owners duplicate the relationships I had with clients or other store managers. Corporate, other owners and managers trusted me more than the owners.

The salesperson is a reflection of a lack of investment in them. End of story.

[JAD]

I have the good fortune to work in B2B. I imagine in retail, where a whole $40 cm hangs in the balance, it would be easy to be lazy and stupid and hang on to the job. In B2B, besides the stakes being much higher, the pond is much smaller. Say something dumb to a customer in New Hampshire and you're likely to hear it repeated back in Malaysia. One or two of those, and you might as well hang it up and go into marketing. Or management.

[kehowell]

I don't know if it's changed much now, but in the late '90s/early '00s at the University of Minnesota, you could count the non-white students in any given CSci class on one hand, and most of those were Asian males. There was at least a sprinkling of non-white professors, but again, most of them were Asian, split probably 65/35 between Chinese and Indian, and the vast majority were male. I'm not sure what the cause was/is, but obviously if you don't have a diverse group of students in the education system for any given field, you're not going to have a diverse workforce either.

I am 65+ I was one of 4 women in 1965 accepted into an engineering school sponsored by the state. It was the first year that the school allowed women to apply. There were 600 men and 4 women. All of us were geeks. I was a computer science major. In order to stay in school you maintained a B in every class for every trimester. No do-overs. When I went into the industry I was typically the only woman on staff. I learned to ignore the disparity and work harder than anyone else. By 1993 I held my Microsoft Systems Engineer (MCSE) Novell (NSE) and Sun OS certifications. This achievement was not the norm. I have never used the fact that I was a woman to expect different or better treatment. In my last position I had 16 accountants / attorneys working for me, all men.

If we ignore our personal profile when dealing toe-to-toe eventually we find that everyone else ignores it. I joined this forum a week ago. Until then I was convinced I needed to take my Firearms 101 classes when offered for "women only". Not any more. If there is an opening I will take it. Everyone there is obviously at the same level.

We need to stop pointing out our differences and concentrate what makes us the same. Our own humanity.

[LittleLebowski]

I am 65+ I was one of 4 women in 1965 accepted into an engineering school sponsored by the state. It was the first year that the school allowed women to apply. There were 600 men and 4 women. All of us were geeks. I was a computer science major. In order to stay in school you maintained a B in every class for every trimester. No do-overs. When I went into the industry I was typically the only woman on staff. I learned to ignore the disparity and work harder than anyone else. By 1993 I held my Microsoft Systems Engineer (MCSE) Novell (NSE) and Sun OS certifications. This achievement was not the norm. I have never used the fact that I was a woman to expect different or better treatment. In my last position I had 16 accountants / attorneys working for me, all men.

If we ignore our personal profile when dealing toe-to-toe eventually we find that everyone else ignores it. I joined this forum a week ago. Until then I was convinced I needed to take my Firearms 101 classes when offered for "women only". Not any more. If there is an opening I will take it. Everyone there is obviously at the same level.

We need to stop pointing out our differences and concentrate what makes us the same. Our own humanity.

Furiously hitting the "Like" button. Glad you're here.

[BaiHu]

We need to stop pointing out our differences and concentrate what makes us the same. Our own humanity.

Something our country has progressively lost sight of over the last 30 years. Sad.

Welcome aboard!

[Trooper224]

I stand in awe of your awesomeness kehowell. Welcome aboard.

[Savage Hands]

Awesome post!

[45dotACP]

Wow...lots of content in this thread. I'll just state anecdotally that last Saturday I went to the range and there were black, white, latino, asian and middle eastern men and women...in fact, it was so crowded with such a diverse group, I thought Obama had gone and done something stupid...again...

Got treated fine by the young female clerk, and the black women shooting their CCW qualifications and I chatted while we waited for a lane to open. They were in fact, quite happy with the service provided by the Old Fat White Dude who owned the store and one had just watched her daughter join the ROTC at her college.

Brought a little star spangled tear to my eye.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[Peally]

Wow...lots of content in this thread. I'll just state anecdotally that last Saturday I went to the range and there were black, white, latino, asian and middle eastern men and women...in fact, it was so crowded with such a diverse group, I thought Obama had gone and done something stupid...again...

Got treated fine by the young female clerk, and the black women shooting their CCW qualifications and I chatted while we waited for a lane to open. They were in fact, quite happy with the service provided by the Old Fat White Dude who owned the store and one had just watched her daughter join the ROTC at her college.

Brought a little star spangled tear to my eye.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Did a majestic eagle soar over the range too?

[45dotACP]

Unfortunately, just a chickadee. It was fucking cold outside. I don't know how those tiny birds survive it ;)

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