.380 vs pit bull

[drjaydvm]

Funny how we were just talking about this. The story is that the owners pit bull got out of the yard and lunged at the neighbor, who shot at him 5 or 6 times with a .380. The dog presented to me about 30 minutes later ambulatory, alert, non painful with his left eye, conjunctiva, and eyelids swollen, bruised and bleeding. Upon further examination there was an entry wound through the upper eyelid, an exit wound below his left ear, and a grazing wound in front of his left shoulder. The globe and cornea were intact but the front part of the eye was filled with blood, most likely from the force of the bullet passing through the lid a few mm away. The bullet entered the cheek, struck the jaw cracking it, an exited the neck. No lead or jacket fragments on X-rays, so I'm assuming fmj or tmj most likely.
The moral of the story is that pit bull heads are mostly muscle and bone, and it is harder than you think to get a CNS hit when the brain is tiny and only about 1/4 of the head. Remember I only see the lucky ones. The radiograph is taken pointing down towards the top of the head. The small oval shaped thing towards the bottom is where the brain is, the rest is muscle and bone.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/0061cbe99179b386af01cf031f44e6b3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/31790bd87bfdba39f465f285d65266da.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/081db1e592ffd8091dbf35f547cd18f7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/9b99b6da19853c7a84b0dcf2736af380.jpg

[SecondsCount]

Glad the dog is going to be okay.

[drjaydvm]

He may lose his eye but will otherwise be fine. Nice friendly dog. It sounds like the neighbor got a new gat for Christmas and was itching to try it out.

[LittleLebowski]

He may lose his eye but will otherwise be fine. Nice friendly dog. It sounds like the neighbor got a new gat for Christmas and was itching to try it out.

I'm very sorry to hear of this. People seem to be increasingly panicky over dogs coming towards them.

Thank for taking care of this pooch and for sharing with us.

[breakingtime91]

I'm very sorry to hear of this. People seem to be increasingly panicky over dogs coming towards them.

Thank for taking care of this pooch and for sharing with us.

I had to use my flash light the other day for this reason... guy was about to hit my dog with a shovel despite him being on my property... My dog wasn't even barking, just going to see him. Glad the dog will recover, hopefully the person is charged.

[CrazyHorse5.0]

. Glad the dog will recover, hopefully the person is charged.

+1.....Thank you drjay, please keep us updated if the shooter is charged.

[tanner]

... The story is that the owners pit bull got out of the yard ...

I am a dog owner myself. He is the friendliest and most submissive pup you will probably ever meet.

Having said that, if he were to leave my property and approach someone who ended up shooting him, the blame would be all mine.

I understand mistakes happen, hell I have made many myself, but the responsibility here ultimately lies with the dog owner for not having control of his dog.

I also wish the dog a speedy recovery, but can't see how the shooter should be charged for anything in this particular instance.

[LittleLebowski]

I also wish the dog a speedy recovery, but can't see how the shooter should be charged for anything in this particular instance.

No one here has called for that EDIT, wrong on my part.

Personally I feel that the shooter was probably in the wrong given the report from the OP.

[MichaelD]

Personally I feel that the shooter was probably in the wrong given the report from the OP.

Given that the only info I can see about the incident is:

"The story is that the owners pit bull got out of the yard and lunged at the neighbor, who shot at him 5 or 6 times with a .380."

...I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion. IMO, there's not enough info to make a judgment either way.

Still, I'm glad the pooch is going to live. Hopefully the needed lessons get learned regardless.

[LittleLebowski]

Given that the only info I can see about the incident is:

"The story is that the owners pit bull got out of the yard and lunged at the neighbor, who shot at him 5 or 6 times with a .380."

...I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion. IMO, there's not enough info to make a judgment either way.

Still, I'm glad the pooch is going to live. Hopefully the needed lessons get learned regardless.

I'm referring to the parts where he said the dog was friendly and this bit below as it seems that the OP has more info than the rest of us.


It sounds like the neighbor got a new gat for Christmas and was itching to try it out.

[41magfan]

I am a dog owner myself. He is the friendliest and most submissive pup you will probably ever meet.

Having said that, if he were to leave my property and approach someone who ended up shooting him, the blame would be all mine.

I understand mistakes happen, hell I have made many myself, but the responsibility here ultimately lies with the dog owner for not having control of his dog.

I also wish the dog a speedy recovery, but can't see how the shooter should be charged for anything in this particular instance.

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

[MichaelD]

I'm referring to the parts where he said the dog was friendly and this bit below as it seems that the OP has more info than the rest of us.


It sounds like the neighbor got a new gat for Christmas and was itching to try it out.


Perhaps. I still figure it's best to avoid passing judgment when one doesn't know everything that went on in a situation.

[rob_s]

These kinds of discussions are interesting, as people tend to simply project their own issues onto the situation and come up with a conclusion that best absolves them of their own failings.

Myself, I live in a sub-rural area where I have been advised by the locals that "dogs get out around here" to which I have replied "and if they come up on me and mine while "out" and even look crossyed I'll happily shoot them until dead.

sorry, human>dog, and [my humans]>[someone else's dog]

It's good to get an idea of what an FMJ .380 might do in such a situation. I wonder, in these cases, if one is better served with more ammo or bigger bullets (assuming there is a limitation)?

[Mitch]

I had to use my flash light the other day for this reason... guy was about to hit my dog with a shovel despite him being on my property... My dog wasn't even barking, just going to see him. Glad the dog will recover, hopefully the person is charged.

That guy would have some serious explaining to do. He's lucky you only used a flashlight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

These kinds of discussions are interesting, as people tend to simply project their own issues onto the situation and come up with a conclusion that best absolves them of their own failings.

Myself, I live in a sub-rural area where I have been advised by the locals that "dogs get out around here" to which I have replied "and if they come up on me and mine while "out" and even look crossyed I'll happily shoot them until dead.

sorry, human>dog, and [my humans]>[someone else's dog]

It's good to get an idea of what an FMJ .380 might do in such a situation. I wonder, in these cases, if one is better served with more ammo or bigger bullets (assuming there is a limitation)?

There are a lot of keyboard warriors looking to get their gun off that see other people's dogs as safe targets. This is why when I walk my pit I have to keep him on a tight lead, because I don't trust other people to be able to differentiate "lunging toward you to give you loves" between "lunging toward you to kill you."

Because most people, especially people who want to shoot dogs, are stupid fucks.

[Trooper224]

I'm referring to the parts where he said the dog was friendly and this bit below as it seems that the OP has more info than the rest of us.

Why are you assuming the OP has more info? He wasn't there. Since the dog was nice and friendly after taking a few slugs he's assuming the shooter was in the wrong. He's obviously a dog lover who's projecting his own feelings onto the situation, as are you and most of the other posters in this thread. If this was a case of one human being shooting another most would be more than willing to give the shooter at least some benefit of the doubt. When a dog is involved it's an entirely different story for far too many of you. When pets are involved far too many people stick their heads way up their backsides. If the dog had been properly restrained by a responsible owner this never would have happened, end of story.

[Savage Hands]

There are a lot of keyboard warriors looking to get their gun off that see other people's dogs as safe targets. This is why when I walk my pit I have to keep him on a tight lead, because I don't trust other people to be able to differentiate "lunging toward you to give you loves" between "lunging toward you to kill you."

Because most people, especially people who want to shoot dogs, are stupid fucks.


I'd never want to shoot someone else's dog, but people need to keep their dogs away from my small children and I'll make sure to keep my kids away from them. If someone doesn’t know you or your dog, I'm not assuming your Pit has good intentions towards my 1 and 5 year old.

[Hambo]

Myself, I live in a sub-rural area where I have been advised by the locals that "dogs get out around here" to which I have replied "and if they come up on me and mine while "out" and even look crossyed I'll happily shoot them until dead.


That's mighty neighborly of you. :rolleyes:

I recognize most of the dogs in my neighborhood and if one gets loose, I take some treats out, leash it, and take it home. No big deal. The one time I couldn't locate an owner I called the dog warden.

[jetfire]

I'd never want to shoot someone else's dog, but people need to keep their dogs away from my small children and I'll make sure to keep my kids away from them. If someone doesn’t know you or your dog, I'm not assuming your Pit has good intentions towards my 1 and 5 year old.

That's a perfectly reasonable attitude. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that there are plenty of people (who'd likely never admit it) that just want to get their gun off and a dog becomes their target because they're more likely to get away with it.

And they're too lazy to go hunting.

[breakingtime91]

I reached that conclusion based of the comment of him seemingly wanting to try out his gun. I have no problem shooting a dog as a last resort but it's not my first move.

[Savage Hands]

I reached that conclusion based of the comment of him seemingly wanting to try out his gun. I have no problem shooting a dog as a last resort but it's not my first move.


Fox Labs OC works really well in my experience.

[tanner]

Because most people, especially people who want to shoot dogs, are stupid fucks.

Don't necessarily disagree.

However, in this instance, the bright-line distinction is where the incident took place.

[BaiHu]

As a dog owner, who's dog speaks German (no, his commands are in English), I am intimately aware that it is my responsibility to keep my dog from causing mischief. Luckily, the 3 times he's gotten away from us (we live in a condo) he's a) ended up panting and wagging his tail waiting for me by the front stoop (15 minutes later), b) gone on a wild chase and killed something along the river and came back with a Rambo smile to my fiance and c) ended up on a busy street (luckily it was daylight) and two older women fell in love with him and called my cell on his collar.

Again, as I've stated before and IANADVM/AB*, most dog problems are human instigated by leashes and dogs sensing the fear/anxiety of their owners. Most human problems involving shooting dogs are more of a human problem than dog problem.

Good luck and god speed on the dog and thanks for sharing doc.


(I Am Not A Doctor of Veterinary Medicine/Animal Behavioralist)

[LittleLebowski]

Why are you assuming the OP has more info?

Because he lives there, spoke to the dog owner in person, and then made a reasoned statement.

With regards to the rest of your statement, you're making a quick generalization that is WRONG. I'll always choose humans over dogs and I've nearly had to draw a few times on dogs. However, I think there's a rash of people too willing to shoot at a dog.

I don't see these things in black and white, either way.

[Gadfly]

I was never wanting to shoot a dog until one tore into my arm. (covered in detail in another thread). It changed my mind. Once 100lbs is locked onto you and shaking, there is really nothing you can do. And the speed at which a dog can close distance and bite is amazing (Tueller drill with teeth instead of blades). Some breeds are more docile than others, obviously.

I think 100% of dog owners would say their dog would never bite anyone and that the dog is a huge lover. At home I am sure that is 100% true. That dog would never hurt you and your family, its pack. A stranger is a whole other matter... You just don't know.

Still, I would probably hesitate to shoot a dog, even though I NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a bite again.

[Peally]

I wouldn't want to shoot a god either, that's just asking for some heavy divine wrath type stuff.






/endsmartasscomment ;)

[drjaydvm]

I started this thread more to show that it can be difficult to get a successful CNS shot on a moving thick skulled dog than to debate whether he should have been shot in the first place. I didn't want to go into all the details because it was filled with the usual out in the country drama that accompanies most of these situations. My take on the injuries (and other dogs I've seen with gunshot wounds) is that round nosed fmj bullets not moving very fast tend to deflect off of hard objects if not hit perpendicularly. In this case it was the mandible. The shooter told the owner he had shot him with a .380, I'm making an educated guess it was FMJ because of the lack of any bullet fragments in any of the wound tracts. It could have been a hollow point that failed to expand, but those usual leave metal fragments where they hit bone. Dog will be fine by the way. The eye looked much better by morning. The owner isn't going to pursue the matter with animal control which also makes me think there is more to the story.

[rob_s]

There are a lot of keyboard warriors looking to get their gun off that see other people's dogs as safe targets. This is why when I walk my pit I have to keep him on a tight lead, because I don't trust other people to be able to differentiate "lunging toward you to give you loves" between "lunging toward you to kill you."

Because most people, especially people who want to shoot dogs, are stupid fucks.

So long as the owner has control of the dog, whether via a fence or a leash, I don't see an issue even with growling or lunging. I'm happy to keep me and mine just beyond the limits of said control.

It's when the animal is beyond that control and acting aggressively that the equation changes. and if I'm with my two small children I don't have time to sit and figure out if the (now illegal, BTW) dog who is rushing them just wants to play or is intending something different, nor do I plan to sit around to see if the former turns into the latter.

you are dead on re: people being stupid fucks. Those people include, among others, those that walk their dogs off-property and out of designated areas without leashes, people that have a fence and a dog but leave the gate open, that have a fence in such poor repair that it might as well not exist, etc. and expect for the dog to always return to them in one piece.

[rob_s]

That's mighty neighborly of you. :rolleyes:

It's this kind of double standard that I find odd. It's considered un-neighborly of me to shoot your dog, but it's just peaches and cream for you to let your dog out to roam the neighborhood?

[LittleLebowski]

The owner isn't going to pursue the matter with animal control which also makes me think there is more to the story.

Works for me.

[Dave Williams]

I was at a party last year and there was a dog fight involving a beagle and a wiener dog. There was a wonderful old pit bull rescue dog at the party also, sitting there watching, as if incredulous at their behavior. It was classic. Nothing to do with the thread but I thought it was a good story.

[dkv]

The moral of the story is that pit bull heads are mostly muscle and bone, and it is harder than you think to get a CNS hit when the brain is tiny and only about 1/4 of the head. Remember I only see the lucky ones. The radiograph is taken pointing down towards the top of the head. The small oval shaped thing towards the bottom is where the brain is, the rest is muscle and bone.

Thank you for showing this.

As far as dogs ... We have a nice dog, super gentle, great with kids, totally submissive. Plays well with others, etc.
on his sixth or so stay at the kennel, he but another dog.
Dogs are all a little wolf-ish, and I don't think we can be sure when that wolf will come out.

[Hambo]

It's this kind of double standard that I find odd. It's considered un-neighborly of me to shoot your dog, but it's just peaches and cream for you to let your dog out to roam the neighborhood?

If someone let's their dog roam, that's a problem. If a dog gets loose, that's an accident. Shooting a dog just for being on the loose is being a dick.

For the record, my dogs are better supervised than most children. They have a fenced yard and aren't out in it unless my wife, me, or the dog sitter is present with them. Our escape record is better than Alcatraz, but not everybody has that level of OCD.

[RJ]

I was at a party last year and there was a dog fight involving a beagle and a wiener dog. There was a wonderful old pit bull rescue dog at the party also, sitting there watching, as if incredulous at their behavior. It was classic. Nothing to do with the thread but I thought it was a good story.

I think the Dog in the OP is ok now, so hopefully he will recover fully.

I hate hearing dog vs. man stories; one of my fears as a kid walking to school was to be bitten by a dog.

Actually, I did have an odd thing happen once.

I went by a sign in front of a broken down, shanty-style house: "Talking Dog For Sale." I rang the bell and the owner appeared and told me the dog was in the backyard.

I went into the backyard and saw a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there.

"You talk?" I asked.

"Yep," the Lab replied.

After I recovered from the shock of hearing a dog talk, I said, "So, what's your story?"

The Lab looked up and said, "Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.

"I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running. But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.

"I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired."

I was amazed. I went back in and asked the owner what he wanted for the dog.

"Ten dollars," the guy said.

I said, "Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap??"

"Because that dog's a damn liar. He never did any of that shit."

:cool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/

[Elkhitman]

Had a buddy of mine go to a call for service in one of the shadier parts of the city he works in. As he approached the house the garage door was partially up a Pit Bull came out from the opened door and bit him in the knee and came off the bite. My friend shot the dog in the rib cage with a Sig P229 .40. He told me the bullet traveled under the skin of the dog to the opposite side where it exited, never did penetrate the body cavity. I hope the dog makes a full recovery.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

If someone let's their dog roam, that's a problem. If a dog gets loose, that's an accident. Shooting a dog just for being on the loose is being a dick.

For the record, my dogs are better supervised than most children. They have a fenced yard and aren't out in it unless my wife, me, or the dog sitter is present with them. Our escape record is better than Alcatraz, but not everybody has that level of OCD.

I didn't say I'd shoot a dog just for being loose. I said I'd shoot a dog for showing any signs of aggression, especially when out with my 5 and 7year old girls. Whether or not I even let a loose dog anywhere near us is situational, but I know first hand that dogs that first appear docile can turn for no discernible reason, especially with small kids.

[JodyH]

If you don't want other people deciding whether your dog lives or dies, maintain control of your dog.

[LittleLebowski]

Be damned sure the shot needs to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/24/cop-accidentally-shot-woman-back-work/70406706/

[Peally]

That's a third party getting involved in a domestic, I can't think of a better situation to confuse a dog and make it aggressive.

[LittleLebowski]

That's a third party getting involved in a domestic, I can't think of a better situation to confuse a dog and make it aggressive.

Oh yeah, definitely a mess. The true definition of the word.

[TGS]

Be damned sure the shot needs to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/24/cop-accidentally-shot-woman-back-work/70406706/

Are you trying to make a point from this and relate it to the thread and/or your previous comments?

[LittleLebowski]

Are you trying to make a point from this and relate it to the thread and/or your previous comments?

Yes.

[TGS]

Yes.

Well, can you explain it a little more?

From the article, all I see is an officer who rightly discharged his firearm when attacked and in danger of greivous bodily harm.

[LittleLebowski]

Well, can you explain it a little more?

From the article, all I see is an officer who rightly discharged his firearm when attacked and in danger of greivous bodily harm.

I'm not judging, I'm saying for those that might feel they can draw down upon and shoot any animal that they feel are threatening them, they should make "damned sure" they are actually being threatened, that the shot needs to happen, and that the bystanders are clear.

Many of us have done the drill simulating shooting at a charging dog. Not so easy.

Not to mention that in today's world of social media, you can be hashtagged, vilified, and destroyed even if you felt threatened.

Case in point (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-11-19/news/bs-md-ar-shepherd-trial-20101119_1_rachel-rettaliata-dog-park-shooting-keith-elgin-shepherd). I read somewhere (can't find it now) that the guy lost his LE job as a result.

Just because you can does not mean you should. I'm trying to advise folks to think about surviving the aftermath of a weapons discharge.

Also, I've shot dogs that were attacking livestock. My brother dispatched a pit in Wyoming that was locked onto a little girl. My dad killed his own dog with a hammer (one hit) a few seconds after it bit a guy unprovoked. The day my wife's Chow/Lab mix snapped at and missed my daughter was the dog's last day alive.

Personal note: shooting a colt was way harder than shooting a dog.

[HCountyGuy]

I'm not judging, I'm saying for those that might feel they can draw down upon and shoot any animal that they feel are threatening them, they should make "damned sure" they are actually being threatened, that the shot needs to happen, and that the bystanders are clear.

Many of us have done the drill simulating shooting at a charging dog. Not so easy.

Not to mention that in today's world of social media, you can be hashtagged, vilified, and destroyed even if you felt threatened.

Case in point (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-11-19/news/bs-md-ar-shepherd-trial-20101119_1_rachel-rettaliata-dog-park-shooting-keith-elgin-shepherd). I read somewhere (can't find it now) that the guy lost his LE job as a result.

Just because you can does not mean you should. I'm trying to advise folks to think about surviving the aftermath of a weapons discharge.

Also, I've shot dogs that were attacking livestock. My brother dispatched a pit in Wyoming that was locked onto a little girl. My dad killed his own dog with a hammer (one hit) a few seconds after it bit a guy unprovoked. The day my wife's Chow/Lab mix snapped at and missed my daughter was the dog's last day alive.

Personal note: shooting a colt was way harder than shooting a dog.

In the incident you mentioned, the officer slipped as he discharged the first shot, then squeezed off the second (the shot which killed Autumn Steele) on his way down. The officer was bitten by the dog, so I'd say the threat the dog posed was credible. Not to mention the dog in question was a GSD. I don't think I need to expound upon the damage one of them can do.

The deceased and some of her family hails from the area I reside, and her mother has become a huge critic of law enforcement since this incident.

[RJ]

My wife asked me this question the other day, thought I would ask it here.

We walk our Mini-Schnauzer several times a day.

We live in greater urban Clearwater / Largo, about a mile from the water, near a stream to Tampa Bay.

The other day, driving, we spotted what we are pretty sure was the coyote our neighbors told us frequented the area.

Any thoughts on wild dogs vis a vis say pits attacking you / your own dog?

I told my wife I'd probably scoop up our dog (14 lbs) and try and get away.

Not sure I'd want to try to shoot a fast mover in an urban setting while controlling a mini-Schnauzer who likely would be going nuts at this point.

[Drang]

My gut feeling is that a coyote will not attack a human, or a dog with a human, under most circumstances. They're bold, but not that bold.

Feral dogs may be another matter.

[LittleLebowski]

My gut feeling is that a coyote will not attack a human, or a dog with a human, under most circumstances. They're bold, but not that bold.

Feral dogs may be another matter.

Yeah, coyotes aren't that bad.

[BobLoblaw]

My gut feeling is that a coyote will not attack a human, or a dog with a human, under most circumstances. They're bold, but not that bold.

Feral dogs may be another matter.

Yeah, they're bold enough to attack a dog by itself (especially small dogs) but not people. They keep trying to lure my friend's lab mix out past their tree line so they can get to the chickens. You can see their eyes in the pack semicircle/ambush formation when shining a light out there. Sneaky bastards.

[Kukuforguns]

My wife asked me this question the other day, thought I would ask it here.

We walk our Mini-Schnauzer several times a day.

We live in greater urban Clearwater / Largo, about a mile from the water, near a stream to Tampa Bay.

The other day, driving, we spotted what we are pretty sure was the coyote our neighbors told us frequented the area.

Any thoughts on wild dogs vis a vis say pits attacking you / your own dog?

I told my wife I'd probably scoop up our dog (14 lbs) and try and get away.

Not sure I'd want to try to shoot a fast mover in an urban setting while controlling a mini-Schnauzer who likely would be going nuts at this point.

Well, crap. I just reviewed this wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans) article on coyote attacks on humans. Turns out I live in attack central. Good news: coyotes rarely weigh more than 35 pounds and usually do not pose a mortal threat to adults. Bad news: (1) coyotes are interbreeding with wolves, which may increase the danger they pose; (2) coyotes in areas where humans don't shoot them are becoming less afraid of humans; (3) coyote attacks on children are more likely to cause serious injury than attacks on adults (apparently coyotes will take a test bite on immobile adults to see if they are incapacitated); (4) between 1976 and 2006, there were at least 160 attacks in the United States, mostly in the Los Angeles County area.

My takeaway: coyotes just moved up on my threat radar. On the other hand, there are more than 4 million dog bite incidents and around 20+ fatalities each year. It's always good to put things into perspective.

[psalms144.1]

When I lived in AZ, we had a neighbor's dog taken and killed by coyotes - it was a small dog, don't remember the breed. Happened when the family was at work - e.g. no humans around. I used to spend a lot of time out and about on the ranch and nearby public land, and spent a lot of time hunting coyotes at the request of local ranchers, and I can tell you I saw LOTS of coyotes, and never one that would knowingly come anywhere near a full-sized human.

When I lived outside Tampa in Lithia, we had a handful of coyotes in the vicinity, and they were VERY wary of humans.

The only caution I will add is, like the plethora of black bears becoming an increasing threat in places like NJ, too much exposure of Coyotes to humans will likely lead to them becoming less frightened of us, and potentially more bold. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, if I were you, and I think your "pick up the rat, sorry, I mean dog, and leave" plan is perfectly OK. No way would I try to take a potshot at a moving Coyote in an urban area - they're hard enough to hit in the best conditions when the backdrop is clear for miles and miles...

[BN]

On the other hand, there are more than 4 million dog bite incidents and around 20+ fatalities each year. It's always good to put things into perspective.

Are these just the ones that have been reported to some central data center. How many have been unreported? Working for the telephone company, I have had several run ins with dogs. Some left a mark, but didn't draw blood. Others could have been serious if I hadn't had my line belt on. Several feet of leather strap with a big buckle will cause a dog to step back. ;) I've never reported them to anyone other than my boss and co-workers.

[RJ]

^^^ Thanks all. Hopefully we won't see Mr. Coyote on our future walks.

[Peally]

Are these just the ones that have been reported to some central data center. How many have been unreported? Working for the telephone company, I have had several run ins with dogs. Some left a mark, but didn't draw blood. Others could have been serious if I hadn't had my line belt on. Several feet of leather strap with a big buckle will cause a dog to step back. ;) I've never reported them to anyone other than my boss and co-workers.

I've been bitten by dogs at least twice (I'm still alive). I'd never report it if I could help it, Uncle Sam isn't going to do shit to help the situation for anyone. Don't invite the man into your life and all that.

The statistics sound about right, I'd say the vast majority of dog bites aren't because a dog is trying to murder the crap out of someone.

[Kukuforguns]

Are these just the ones that have been reported to some central data center. How many have been unreported? Working for the telephone company, I have had several run ins with dogs. Some left a mark, but didn't draw blood. Others could have been serious if I hadn't had my line belt on. Several feet of leather strap with a big buckle will cause a dog to step back. ;) I've never reported them to anyone other than my boss and co-workers.

There is no national program to monitor dog attacks. Some municipalities monitor bites that break skin in connection with rabies prevention, but the estimate of national attacks comes from household surveys. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18836045

So the dog bite estimate is more like estimates of national violence from the National Crime Victimization Survey as opposed to FBI data regarding various reported crimes (experienced versus reported).

[luckyman]

Well, crap. I just reviewed this wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans) article on coyote attacks on humans. Turns out I live in attack central.
Yep, ran into one the other week when I was out walking my GSD/chow mix kind of late. Both the 'yote and my dog acted wary but curious. Just kept our distance, Didn't even think of yelling to try to haze it or anything.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

Yep, ran into one the other week when I was out walking my GSD/chow mix kind of late. Both the 'yote and my dog acted wary but curious. Just kept our distance, Didn't even think of yelling to try to haze it or anything.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would draw down on a 'yote in a hot second; living in a mostly urban area the coyotes that do make it downtown are unafraid of humans and used to living off stray cats and shit like that. The difficulty would be hitting the 'yote while my dog is losing his mind trying to chase it down and kill it.

[texasaggie2005]

I would draw down on a 'yote in a hot second; living in a mostly urban area the coyotes that do make it downtown are unafraid of humans and used to living off stray cats and shit like that. The difficulty would be hitting the 'yote while my dog is losing his mind trying to chase it down and kill it.

If Fmr. Gov. Rick Perry can shoot a coyote with a LCP while running with his dog, I am fully confident you could too.


Texas Gov. Perry fatally shoots coyote

By Associated Press
Wednesday, April 28, 2010
AUSTIN -- Pistol-packing Texas Gov. Rick Perry has a message for wily coyotes out there: Don't mess with my dog.

Perry (R) told the Associated Press on Tuesday that he needed just one shot from the laser-sighted pistol he sometimes carries while jogging to take down a coyote that menaced his puppy during a February run near Austin.

Perry said he carries his .380 Ruger -- loaded with hollow-point bullets -- when jogging on trails because he is afraid of snakes. But when a coyote came out of the brush toward his daughter's Labrador retriever, Perry charged.

"Don't attack my dog, or you might get shot . . . if you're a coyote," he said Tuesday.

He is living in a private house in a hilly area southwest of downtown Austin while the Governor's Mansion is being repaired after a 2008 fire. Perry, who holds a concealed-handgun permit, carries the pistol in a belt.

He said he was jogging without his security detail shortly after sunrise when the coyote focused on the dog.

Perry said the laser pointer on his gun helped make a quick, clean kill. "It was not in a lot of pain," he said. "It pretty much went down at that particular juncture." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042705323.html)

[jetfire]

If Fmr. Gov. Rick Perry can shoot a coyote with a LCP while running with his dog, I am fully confident you could too.



It's more trying to make a SHO shot on a moving 'yote while a 70 pound pit bull is trying to pull me off my feet so HE can kill it.

[11B10]

If you don't want other people deciding whether your dog lives or dies, maintain control of your dog.



This ^^^^^ is how it's done, people. YOU control the dog, not the other way around.

[Salamander]

Well, crap. I just reviewed this wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans) article on coyote attacks on humans. Turns out I live in attack central. Good news: coyotes rarely weigh more than 35 pounds and usually do not pose a mortal threat to adults. Bad news: (1) coyotes are interbreeding with wolves, which may increase the danger they pose; (2) coyotes in areas where humans don't shoot them are becoming less afraid of humans; (3) coyote attacks on children are more likely to cause serious injury than attacks on adults (apparently coyotes will take a test bite on immobile adults to see if they are incapacitated); (4) between 1976 and 2006, there were at least 160 attacks in the United States, mostly in the Los Angeles County area.

My takeaway: coyotes just moved up on my threat radar. On the other hand, there are more than 4 million dog bite incidents and around 20+ fatalities each year. It's always good to put things into perspective.


Coyotes are among the more skittish wildlife that I encounter, and every one I've seen has made itself scarce immediately. They're way down my concern list, way below some other species that I'm also not particularly concerned about. And I'm saying that as a board member of the local chapter of The Wildlife Society. If coyote-human encounters in California were anything other than very rare, I'd know about it.

The key in that wikipedia article is the reference to hybrids. I'm a little skeptical of wolf hybridization in SoCal unless it's happening with captive animals since the only naturally occurring wolves in California at the moment are in the far northeast part of the state, and they've only recently arrived back here. Here's a link to an article, I know the CDFW biologist they quote: http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/California-s-lone-wolf-seen-mingling-with-coyotes-3554309.php

There's at least one 1970's rural midwestern report of a pack of "coy-dogs" attacking children. I first heard the story from a biologist in Decatur IL, her credibility is good and I have no reason to doubt her. However the literature indicates that this mix is even less common. At best it was a rare example in a small localized area.

As for pit bulls, this past summer and fall I spent a great deal of time on a project site that has perhaps the highest pit bull density I've ever see outside of an urban area. It's an approximately 750-acre site, overgrown sand dunes and wetlands and 27 miles of roads to nowhere, an old 1960s failed subdivision that was never built. There are a few scattered junky trailers and tents and perhaps 100 "residents," some are cranky old libertarian guys who just want to be left alone and who own the lots they live on even though living there full time is technically illegal; most though are tweakers, head cases, and some clean but down on their luck transients. It's quite a cast of characters, and most of them have dogs, and most of those dogs are pit bulls. One family alone owns seven of them, of which they describe six as nice dogs, and one as mean. I have a full time team of people out there among this craziness, overseeing a construction crew removing some of the roads.

Needless to say, we encounter pit bulls pretty frequently. There's a lot of variation. Some are well trained dogs and well cared for and controlled by their owners. Others roam free and a few are semi-feral. Most keep their distance from us, a few stand way back and bark. Still, there are enough of them out there and enough of those have irresponsible owners that we're very careful. No one works alone, everyone carries spray. As far as I know I'm the only one that is armed, although some of the construction guys might be too. The Sheriff has told us not to count on a quick response, we're 25 minutes from town.

My only close call so far was not a pit bull, it was some big mottled-black mutt about the size of a small pony that might have been part mastiff, it was screened by vegetation and was growling as we came around the corner 30 feet away. Fortunately it held it's ground and we walked by, and I never had to actually draw.

We have one more year out there, April to December. It's going to be interesting.

[HCM]

Yeah, they're bold enough to attack a dog by itself (especially small dogs) but not people. They keep trying to lure my friend's lab mix out past their tree line so they can get to the chickens. You can see their eyes in the pack semicircle/ambush formation when shining a light out there. Sneaky bastards.

They are more likely trying to lure your friends dog out by showing one and once the dog goes out after the one alone, four or five will kill and eat him.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f40_1342118984

[LittleLebowski]

They are more likely trying to lure your friends dog out by showing one and once the dog goes out after the one alone, four or five will kill and eat him.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f40_1342118984

I know this, I read the right books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0084AVKZ2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0084AVKZ2&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) growing up :D

[BobLoblaw]

They are more likely trying to lure your friends dog out by showing one and once the dog goes out after the one alone, four or five will kill and eat him.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f40_1342118984

Absolutely. If you can take out the first one quickly, sometimes they'll send a second to investigate and you can get a twofer [emoji6].


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cheap Shot]

This ^^^^^ is how it's done, people. YOU control the dog, not the other way around.

Much wisdom here

[StraitR]

One of the very last things I would ever want to do is shoot a dog, any dog, but the VERY LAST thing I want to do is spend the rest of my life regretting that I didn't. My kids come before before any dog, and I don't fault anyone for feeling the same.

You'd have to be a complete idiot to think my 75lbs happy-go-lucky golden retriever wanted to do anything other than lick you to death, but if he rushed at someone else in their yard, with their kids, whatever happens to him is on me. I'm sure I'd be upset, highly upset, but people are going to err on the side of caution, and I cannot blame them. That being said, we know the dogs in our rural(ish these days) neighborhood, and often grab the escapees and take them home or call the family while we play with them.

I've ran through the dog attack scenario many times in my head in hopes of being able to react quicker having some semblance of a plan and prevent shooting a dog if at all possible. I simply look to put myself between the dog and my loved one(s), get big, get loud, and get scary. If that doesn't deter the aggressor, I'll present my left arm for the bite, at which point I would look to dispatch the dog. I'm sure Mr. Murphy will have his say, he always does, but much like sitting down at a new restaurant for the first time, I feel it's best to locate exits and have a plan(s) as to avoid vaporlock trying to figure out step 1 if something goes south.

Our dog is only a threat to your funny bone, and maybe a slobber stain or two on your boots.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5443/18672148660_57530b587b_z.jpg

[olstyn]

Our dog is only a threat to your funny bone, and maybe a slobber stain or two on your boots.

You know how I can tell your dog is a total jerk? He stole my wife's sunglasses. :)

[StraitR]

You know how I can tell your dog is a total jerk? He stole my wife's sunglasses. :)

Can't blame him, with all the itchy trigger fingers out there. Oakley's are great for dogs since they're ballistic, and the helmet has been upgraded to a Ops-Core FAST Maritime, just in case he get's out of the yard.

The poor pit pup would have faired much better with the same approach to PPE.

[Casual Friday]

My gut feeling is that a coyote will not attack a human, or a dog with a human, under most circumstances. They're bold, but not that bold.

Feral dogs may be another matter.


Yeah, coyotes aren't that bad.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2009/11/special-report-coyote-attacks-and-death-canadian-folk-singer-taylor-mitchell

Very, very rare but it does happen. I watched a show on NatGeo about this incident and they later killed the coyotes that killed the young lady and their DNA revealed they had cross bred with wolves.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2009/11/special-report-coyote-attacks-and-death-canadian-folk-singer-taylor-mitchell

Very, very rare but it does happen. I watched a show on NatGeo about this incident and they later killed the coyotes that killed the young lady and their DNA revealed they had cross bred with wolves.

There's statistical outliers for everything.

[Casual Friday]

There's statistical outliers for everything.

Correct. That wasn't meant to prove anyone wrong, just that they shouldn't be ignored as a potential threat.

[Hambo]

Unlike dogs, who I give the benefit of the doubt, I'd shoot a coyote that came close without hesitation because there is something odd about that. We hear coyotes, find tracks and scat, but seeing them is a rarity. We have a serious rabies problem here, and I'd be inclined to think that one that approached humans is infected.

[LittleLebowski]

Unlike dogs, who I give the benefit of the doubt, I'd shoot a coyote that came close without hesitation because there is something odd about that. We hear coyotes, find tracks and scat, but seeing them is a rarity. We have a serious rabies problem here, and I'd be inclined to think that one that approached humans is infected.

I think it's regional. When I lived in SoCal, coyotes came close to my wife and I all of the time.

[11B10]

One of the very last things I would ever want to do is shoot a dog, any dog, but the VERY LAST thing I want to do is spend the rest of my life regretting that I didn't. My kids come before before any dog, and I don't fault anyone for feeling the same.

You'd have to be a complete idiot to think my 75lbs happy-go-lucky golden retriever wanted to do anything other than lick you to death, but if he rushed at someone else in their yard, with their kids, whatever happens to him is on me. I'm sure I'd be upset, highly upset, but people are going to err on the side of caution, and I cannot blame them. That being said, we know the dogs in our rural(ish these days) neighborhood, and often grab the escapees and take them home or call the family while we play with them.

I've ran through the dog attack scenario many times in my head in hopes of being able to react quicker having some semblance of a plan and prevent shooting a dog if at all possible. I simply look to put myself between the dog and my loved one(s), get big, get loud, and get scary. If that doesn't deter the aggressor, I'll present my left arm for the bite, at which point I would look to dispatch the dog. I'm sure Mr. Murphy will have his say, he always does, but much like sitting down at a new restaurant for the first time, I feel it's best to locate exits and have a plan(s) as to avoid vaporlock trying to figure out step 1 if something goes south.

Our dog is only a threat to your funny bone, and maybe a slobber stain or two on your boots.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5443/18672148660_57530b587b_z.jpg



I dunno - this beast looks mighty dangerous to me - God, I love 'em! Thanks for bringing this picture here.

[StraitR]

I dunno - this beast looks mighty dangerous to me - God, I love 'em! Thanks for bringing this picture here.

Ha! Thanks. When we got him as a pup, my wife and I were engaged and living in downtown Orlando. He was a little dangerous to the birds back then, but he just turned 7, and is now a laid back country dog.


https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1653/23791238783_d121d04133_c.jpg

[Mjolnir]

We had a What If Drill yesterday at work and it was about dealing with an aggressive/attacking dog.

I will link this thread to the proper person to share.

People have NO idea how hard it is to put down a dog. And to me "a dog" is a breed worthy of being utilized as a catchdog which would include the various members of the Mastiff Family: bull-terriers and crosses, working mastiffs like Cane Corso strains Dogo Argentinos and the like. I also think a Malinois *MIGHT* be able to work in that capacity, too... Hmmm...

Most felt they could fend off an ATTACKING dog. Most seemed unconcerned.

This thread may cause some a little more concern to educate themselves on predator and, more specifically, dog behavior as well as the tell tale and subtle visual cues.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

I've mentioned this before but Failure2Stop ran a class and we did an attacking dog drill, we found that standing your ground and taking a shot at a rapidly approaching target worked better than trying to shoot on the move whilst backing up.

[LSP552]

I've mentioned this before but Failure2Stop ran a class and we did an attacking dog drill, we found that standing your ground and taking a shot at a rapidly approaching target worked better than trying to shoot on the move whilst backing up.

I can see that. The difference in speed will overcome any misdirection. And hitting a small, fast moving target is hard enough from a stable platform. Accurate fire at the cyclic rate would be the way to go.

[Dave Williams]

Todd did a similar drill in early AFHF classes -- I know we did it during the first AFHF in NM. Perhaps he got it from F2S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrmvbDc_AUE

Our own Jay Cunningham running the Pitbull Drill at the first AFHF class.

[Mjolnir]

Nice hit.

I'd be proud but certainly not super confident. They move quicker than that and you will require multiple hits in all likelihood.

That's good shooting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

I've had to shoot one pitbull while out jogging. I also learned about running with headphones in, as I was unaware of him running up behind me until the instant before he bit me on the forearm. I shot him once in the chest with a PDX-1 .38. He broke off and laid down, but did survive.

A zone partner shot one that had torn up two people and got it in the head with a Federal bonded .40. It rode the skull and lodged under the opposite side ear. The dog broke off but also survived.

Finally, I shot one on duty with a plated 12g buckshot. It was sick and literally foaming at the mouth, animal control requested I shoot it as they could not safely capture it after trying. I shot it through the chest, it fell over and laid there, but then got up and ran under a car. It did not survive, but still took longer to die than I would have thought.

I've had 3 pit bulls over the years, they are fine pets when they are well taken care of. When they go bad, though, they are very difficult to kill.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I'm referring to the parts where he said the dog was friendly and this bit below as it seems that the OP has more info than the rest of us.

It means nothing what one perceives the dog of in regards to friendliness, dogs are literally domesticated wolves... they have been known to act aggressively and attack without warning no matter what breed.

[Hambo]

dogs are literally domesticated wolves

The first domesticated dogs were, but that's thousands of years in the past. Selective breeding has changed dogs so they wouldn't recognize their ancestors, which are unrelated to modern wolves. Because: biology and genetics.

[Cheap Shot]

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2007/12/killer_dogs_tried_to_attack_th.html

Old news, but a nightmare scenario. Pack of dogs escape pen, kill two people. What the article doesn't mention. Owner was out of town and rumor is dogs hadn't been feed for days. Both victims had been partially eaten.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Just like new members have been known to show up, start posting in old threads, and cherrypicking parts of the discussion out of context to a make a "point". :)

Perhaps before replying to a 18 month old post, we should ask ourselves if we're adding value to the discussion or just pumping up our post count. Value add is good. High post count, not so much.

I'm pretty sure every member on PF has been around enough dogs to know that they are animals and when they should (and should not) be wary of them, but thanks for the warning.

Your right, post count means so much to me... forgive me for not looking at how old the thread was. Someone was right about the moderators around here I read not too long ago.


The first domesticated dogs were, but that's thousands of years in the past. Selective breeding has changed dogs so they wouldn't recognize their ancestors, which are unrelated to modern wolves. Because: biology and genetics.

Genetically, they are still wolves deep down... just look at the hardware they all possess.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Would you care to clarify? At first blush your post comes across in a not terribly positive light.

You don't wanna know...

[Totem Polar]

I've had to shoot one pitbull while out jogging. I also learned about running with headphones in, as I was unaware of him running up behind me until the instant before he bit me on the forearm. I shot him once in the chest with a PDX-1 .38. He broke off and laid down, but did survive.

A zone partner shot one that had torn up two people and got it in the head with a Federal bonded .40. It rode the skull and lodged under the opposite side ear. The dog broke off but also survived.

Finally, I shot one on duty with a plated 12g buckshot. It was sick and literally foaming at the mouth, animal control requested I shoot it as they could not safely capture it after trying. I shot it through the chest, it fell over and laid there, but then got up and ran under a car. It did not survive, but still took longer to die than I would have thought.

I've had 3 pit bulls over the years, they are fine pets when they are well taken care of. When they go bad, though, they are very difficult to kill.

That's a fairly sobering collection of anecdote. To be fair, I am familiar with a case local to me where a drunk dude got shot square in the head with bonded .40 (180gr GDHP) and the same thing happened, but still: not so sure I'd want to rely on any handgun round against some of the stockier breeds.

I'll muse aloud that we discuss the concept of psychological stops vs physiological stops with regards to humans, and the former may well be the higher priority with power breed dogs. Impact weapons seem to have a more reasonable track record in this regard, when wielded by able-bodied people. I've mentioned it here before: the one time that I've had to lay out a charging dog, I used nunchaku, because that's what I had at hand. It's astounding how much energy a 12" piece of rock maple at the end of some cord and another stick can produce. The dog eventually found footing and ran off to live a presumably long life, but that was the end of all charging off the porch at strangers down the street.

[Kukuforguns]

I work with someone related to the victim in this article:
http://www.citywatchla.com/index.php/361-petwatch/12871-la-killer-pit-bulls-euthanized-are-dog-attacks-now-an-epidemic
The owner of the dogs opposed euthanasia. As indicated in the article, one of the owners watched the attack and did nothing until another witness told the owner to intervene.

[Mjolnir]

How many are Am Staffs or Staff Bulls or Bull Terriers or, or, or... who knows. However, for OUR purposes (defending one's life) it really doesn't matter.

Stay safe!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk