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Trooper224
01-10-2016, 07:33 PM
I've been wringing this pistol out for the last couple of months and now feel prepared to offer some observations.

The evolution of my off duty piece.
http://m6.i.pbase.com/g9/64/521964/2/162306616.f9br3tyA.jpg

I'm not a gear head per say. Meaning, I don't jump on the latest greatest bandwagon every week. I tend to prefer devoting my time to solving software problems rather than perceived hardware issues. I typically choose gear that works and then stick with it until a real need arises to change it. Consequently, my equipment changes tend to be rather infrequent. For various reasons I've been forced to step outside that box several times over the last two or three years. For over two decades the 1911 was my carry piece of choice, counting military service that would be a full quarter century. I found no reason to change until the onset of arthritis in my strong hand wrist a bit over two years ago. This made a training session with God's Gun rather uncomfortable and I finally had to admit, a change was needed. Having realized some time previously that a few millimeters in bore size didn't really matter, I decided it was time to switch to a 9mm of some kind.

After working with several options I settled on the Beretta 92. I came to view the big Beretta with a new respect I'd been lacking and found it to be a truly excellent weapon overall. The weight of the gun really damped recoil and helped my arthritic wrist immensely. Having always preferred to view issues as challenges rather than problems, I didn't find the transition to a DA/SA trigger mechanism to pose any problems. I'd been issued a Sig P220 years ago so I quickly reacquired old training habits. For two years I carried the Beretta quite happily and then age once again reared it's ugly head. Having endured one hard landing in a helicopter during military service, rolling a patrol car three times in rapid succession in law enforcement as well as spending twenty four years with forty pounds of gear strapped to my person, I have the stereotypical cop's bad back. These issues have finally become serious enough that I had to admit an all metal pistol was no longer an option for off duty carry. I've always preferred a full size service pistol as a CCW rather than one of the various key fob guns, so a polymer framed pistol was the obvious choice. I have years of experience with Glock pistols and I have no issue with them as a service weapon. However, I find the Glock lacking in certain points of refinement and this has always prevented me from spending my own money on one. Enter the Walther PPQ.


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I had been eyeing this particular pistol for some time at my local range. I prefer a five inch barrel on a service pistol, rather than the near ubiquitous four inch barrel. Having spent so much time with full size 1911's I'm sure this has influenced my choice. I also find the increased sight radius to be a benefit, not necessarily in terms of accuracy but rather that my fifty year old eyes appreciate having the front sight a bit farther away. I also appreciate the added muzzle velocity the longer barrel imparts. The pistol had tempted me for some time but I found the price tag of $700+ a bit off putting for a plastic fantastic. Then, at the first of November the range had a weekend discount of 20% off everything in the store. This knocked the price tag down to under $550 and I decided that was worth a chance.

The PPQ comes with three individual back straps as part of the package. Due to my large hands I immediately installed the large back strap before shooting the gun. I also replaced the plastic sights with a set from Dawson Precision. I did this for several reasons: the factory sights are plastic, the rear notch is far too large, I prefer a plain rear sight, did I mention they were plastic? A few years ago I found that my eyes no longer worked with the plain black sights I'd used for years. I need something on the front sight, whether that be a gold bead, a tritium vial, a fiber optic, or a simple white painted dot, I need something to draw my focus. I chose a tritium front sight to aid in low light shooting, rather than my usually favored gold bead. The second reason for the change lay in the rear sight notch. Most service pistols have rear notches somewhere between .130 and .140 inch. The PPQ's rear notch measured at .178. As a long time bullseye shooter I prefer sights with a healthy balance of speed for acquisition and precision for accuracy. What I don't prefer is a rear sight notch so large I can fly the Spruce Goose through it. I settled on a set from Dawson with a front blade and rear notch both measuring .125 inch. I find this combination works very well for me, allowing me to quickly acquire the sights, yet still providing precision.

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When shooting started I was immediately impressed with the PPQ's accuracy. I found it to be the most accurate polymer framed, striker fired pistol I've ever shot. This is with the caveat of not yet having the opportunity to shoot the Sig P320. Other than that as of yet unknown, it easily beat out the competition in accuracy. With my hand loads the pistol will consistently group in the 2 to 2.5 inch range when fired off hand at twenty five yards. It seems to love the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot, either standard pressure or +P form. When shot from a rest at twenty five yards the PPQ consistently gave ten shot groupings of 1.5 to two inches with the Gold Dots. This greatly impressed the bullseye shooter in me, especially coming from a plastic fantastic. The PPQ is more than sufficiently adequate for a service pistol. My personal accuracy requirements in a carry piece are somewhat high, admittedly perhaps even a bit unrealistic. The PPQ is the first polymer framed pistol I've encountered that pleases me in this category.

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While shooting the pistol, I found the feel of the larger back strap to be rather strange. It provided a good fit and control, but I found the highly contoured shape of the grip a bit strange in it's feel. In spite of my large hands, I found the smallest back strap to feel the best, yet during actual use didn't provide good control. With both the small and medium straps I found the initial comfort level to be superior, but with inferior recoil control. In the end I returned to the larger back strap, which I have since become accustomed to. This is a good example of how something may feel best initially, but winds up being inferior in actual use. Just because it feels great that doesn't mean it will preform at the same level.

I've read much about the PPQ being snappier during recoil than similar pistols made by competing brands. I have not encountered this. This may be due to my personal experience. As I previously stated, I've been issued Glock pistols for years, but these have been the G21 and G22. I've never been issued a polymer wonder in 9mm, nor have I owned one except for a brief flirtation with an FNS-9. Most of my plastic shooting experience has been with the heavier recoil impulses provided by calibers begining in 4, so in that since my perception may be limited. In the end, all I can add on this point is that I don't find the PPQ's recoil to be an issue at all. The gun tracks quickly and easily during recoil and follow up shots are extremely fast. I don't own a timer so I have no idea as to split times, but I will say this is the first pistol that has made me want to use one out of curiosity, it's that fast.

Lack of traction also seems to be a common complaint with the PPQ's grip. Again, I haven't found this to be the case. I tend to get a death grip on my handguns so that may have something to do with it and I'm not discounting another's experience at all, but it simply hasn't been an issue for me and I have shot it with sweaty hands. Early on I considered installing a Talon Grip due to these issues mentioned by others, but in the end decided it wasn't necessary. Since the PPQ will serve as my CCW I'll often be carrying it against my bare skin during the summer. This would make the abrasive Talon grip uncomfortable, whereas the more comfortable rubberlike grip might cause an outer garment to snag. Since the factory grip doesn't cause me any control issues I've left it as is. The grip is rather short in length for a service pistol. Any shorter and it would be a problem for me. As it is, the grip is "right there" for me in length with the standard fifteen round magazine in place.

Now we come to the PPQ's trigger, seen by many as either the best thing since sliced bread or the guns Achilles heel. The trigger is truly excellent for a polymer framed, striker fired handgun. Walther lists the factory spec at 5.6 pounds, my example came out of the box at 4.5 pounds. After close to three thousand rounds that has settled in at an even four pounds. The triggers take up is light and smooth. Once the trigger is engaged it's travel is very short, as is it's reset. This allows for very fast follow up shots and extremely fast rapid fire strings. Some might consider it too fast and I've read a few reports of shooters inadvertently bump firing the PPQ because of this. I haven't experienced this but have actually seen it. This involved an inexperienced shooter on a public range. The PPQ was his first handgun and he was shooting it for the first time. I watched him take an insufficient tea cup like grip in best Angie Dickinson fashion and proceed to burp off three rounds due to bump firing the pistol. It was quite dramatic and shocking to the shooter. I then stepped in, which I don't normally do, and gave some instruction on a firm and proper way to grip the pistol. Everything then proceeded normally. Some concern has also been voiced about possible dangers involved in holstering, due to the pistol's light trigger. I don't utilize appendix carry so I won't comment on that. However, after living with the PPQ for more than two months now and having carried it and holstered it hundreds if not thousands of times during that period, I can say it isn't a concern for me personally. As I see it, careless behavior that will result in a negligent discharge with the PPQ will yield the same result with any other polymer framed, striker fired pistol. In that regard I don't see the difference to be decisive. Quite a few people whom I consider to be very competent and highly experienced shooters have no worries about dropping 3.5 pound connectors in their Glock pistols, yet balk at the PPQ's trigger. I think the issue may be one of perception rather than reality. These are the kind of things that have caused people to form the opinion that the PPQ ins't suited as a carry weapon.

In my opinion, is the PPQ's suitable as a carry weapon? Yes, but with an asterisk. I don't think this is a pistol for a tyro. I think spending decades with the 1911, with it's light and short trigger, has helped me acclimate to the PPQ. Working so long with a trigger that has no fudge factor has ingrained good trigger discipline into my psyche. I don't practice tactical ninja speed holstering and I can honestly say I've never once caught anything in the trigger guard while holstering in over thirty years, on the square range or off, under stress or not. I'm not claiming it can't or never will happen, or that I can't make a mistake. What I am saying is that, due to my collective experience, I'm comfortable with carrying the PPQ. The asterisk applies to the PPQ's use by beginning shooters, or as an issue weapon at the department or unit level. In my opinion, an inexperienced shooter should give the thought of carrying the PPQ a lot of pause. I don't believe in dumbing the individual down to the lowest common denominator and I think the PPQ can be a highly capable weapon for most people. However, if it's to be your weapon of choice and your experience is limited, you're best advised to spent a lot of time on the range practicing your gun handling fundamentals before you strap it on for a trip to the Piggly Wiggly. Is the PPQ suitable for issue in a law enforcement context? I hate to say it but probably not, at least in the current training environment. I've always considered the state of training in my chosen profession to be inadequate at best and pathetic at worst. Given that, I couldn't see issuing the PPQ to people who only shoot during qualification and give more thought to their computer than they do to their weapon. I did mention I don't think the difference in the PPQ's trigger compared to something like a box stock Glock is a defining difference in terms of safety and I stand by that. Then again, that raises the issue of whether striker fired pistols are the best choice for law enforcement period, but that's another issue. Ultimately, I'm comfortable in making the individual decision to carry the PPQ. Your mileage may vary and you need to be honest with yourself as to your abilities when making that choice.

One of the interesting features of the PPQ is it's stepped chamber. For those not familiar, a stepped chamber features a tighter tolerance at it's forward end, ie., the chamber is "stepped" down at the front, like a bottle neck but not as severe. Walther claims this does several things: supposedly it aids in accuracy. I can't confirm that's true as I haven't shot a PPQ without a stepped chamber. I can attest to its high level of accuracy though, so maybe the Germans are onto something there. They also claims it increases muzzle velocity. Again, I can't confirm that since I have yet to do a comparative test with a chronograph, but I will when the weather improves. Finally, Walther states the stepped chamber aids in sealing the barrel so that less blowback is sent into the gun's innards. I can confirm this as the PPQ stayed remarkably clean after more than two thousand rounds, most of which were cast lead handloads.

http://m4.i.pbase.com/g9/64/521964/2/162306634.b5VeFqn5.jpg
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http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/64/521964/1/162306638.Z1IK1evA.DSCN2012.JPG

My last comment concerns the PPQ's reliability. The Walther passed Pistol-Forum's two thousand round challenge without incident. It was only when it neared the 2.5k mark where I encountered any issues with six malfunctions, all were fails to fire. These were caused by two things: my hand loads and lack of lubrication. I've been putting little to no crimp on my 9mm loads and this has worked fine in the Beretta 92's I've been shooting, However, after acquiring 2.5k rounds worth of gunk, the PPQ's stepped chamber wasn't so happy with it. During the feed cycle the action wound up far enough out of battery that the diagnosis was obvious. This happened three times. The other three malfunctions were caused by something that appears to be a common complaint with some owners, that in which the gun seems to return to full battery, but winds up with a dead trigger. If the pistol is even slightly out of battery it won't fire, but it will trip the sear mechanism without actuating the striker. When this happens the action will move forward into full battery, with a dead trigger. Consequently, the shooter assumes the weapon fed normally and doesn't realize it was out of battery to begin with. Their only obvious feedback is a dead trigger. I found the cause to be excessive friction in the guns firing pin plunger/block due to a lack of lubrication. The trigger bar contacts the FBP just prior to the action going into battery. If there's excessive friction in the FBP's movement it can prevent the action from returning fully into battery. I had originally put a few drops of oil on the frame rails and called it good. I didn't lube it further due to the criteria of the 2k challenge. I've never been adverse to lubing my guns and have repeatedly found a lack of it to be a very common cause of malfunctions in weapons owned by others. I can't recall how many times a malfunctioning 1911 was handed to me and the only culprit was lack of lubrication. I simply didn't think to put a couple of drops of oil on the FBP. Once I increased the taper crimp on my loads and added some lube to the FBP these problems disappeared and have remained in the ether for the last seven hundred rounds. These were operator induced issues and I don't blame the weapon for them. I only offer them here for full disclosure.

In conclusion, I find the PPQ to be a pretty darned good pistol. It's made with that typical Germanic manufacturing precision I appreciate. It's simply a more refined pistol than a Glock, Smith & Wesson M&P, etc. I consider it an equal competitor to the H&K VP9, with a few differences that appeal to my personal preferences. I won't call it outstanding yet as I've only been living with it for a couple of months, but it has impressed me. It's accuracy is outstanding, it's reliability has been excellent and I find it to be a highly capable defensive weapon (with that asterisk). I just wish my good holster would hurry up and arrive so I can throw the craptastic Alien Gear holster-like object I've been using back in the holster drawer. Oh, and my back feels a lot better :)

Beat Trash
01-10-2016, 09:36 PM
Excellent write up.

LSP552
01-10-2016, 09:38 PM
Great review, thanks! Sounds like a refined G34.

WilsonCombatRep
01-10-2016, 10:00 PM
The PPQ is my favorite full size polystrikergun to carry for SD. And I have them ALL. The guns are superbly accurate, have excellent ergos and the trigger is better than most "tuned" striker guns. Just a darn good gun for the $$$

Trooper224
01-10-2016, 10:16 PM
Great review, thanks! Sounds like a refined G34.

Thanks, I think that's actually a great description.

ReverendMeat
01-11-2016, 12:31 AM
Great write-up, I especially appreciate the in-depth description of the pistol's failure to return to battery, and how it can be mistaken for a failure to fire. That happened twice on my PPQ M1 within the first 1000 rounds or so, but hasn't happened since and right now I think the pistol is nearing 5000 rounds with no cleaning or lubrication. Big fan of the PPQ, and I'm glad to see it getting some more love around here

GJM
01-11-2016, 09:13 AM
My experience is based on owning a PPQ classic, and PPQ M2 4 inch, but only handling a 5 inch.

I have mixed feelings. On one hand the PPQ has a great trigger, and is accurate. On the other hand, I think the grip shape is not ideal for holding onto the gun shooting fast, and the left rear edge of the slide hits me in a place that really hurts. Depending upon your grip, you may drop the magazine with your support hand, as Nils Johannson showed me last year.

As far as being a more refined 34, perhaps it is superficially, but I have seen exactly one PPQ 5 inch as a USPSA match. Given the nature of competition, if the M2 could be shot better than a 34, people would be all over it.

At the end of the day, I am glad the M2 5 inch exists with no argument if some people adore it, but to me, it feels like a special snowflake gun.

Jim Watson
01-11-2016, 09:59 AM
I think the pistol is nearing 5000 rounds with no cleaning or lubrication.

I fail to understand this.
Are you conducting a torture test for an infantry board or such?
If not, what do you use it for and what will be the possible consequence when it cokes up?

ReverendMeat
01-11-2016, 01:29 PM
I did a 2k challenge with it, procrastinated on cleaning, and ended up doing a second 2k challenge. I'll get around to it eventually when I feel like it. I don't use the gun for anything at the moment so if it does fail there will be no consequence, but thanks for your concern.

Trooper224
01-11-2016, 01:57 PM
On the other hand, I think the grip shape is not ideal for holding onto the gun shooting fast,

I haven't found this to be the case and I've spent quite a bit of time shooting it fast, so as with many things, mileage varies.


Depending upon your grip, you may drop the magazine with your support hand,

While this hasn't happened to me personally the stock spring seems awfully light. I did recently install a stronger spring in the mag release as a form of insurance.


As far as being a more refined 34, perhaps it is superficially, but I have seen exactly one PPQ 5 inch as a USPSA match. Given the nature of competition, if the M2 could be shot better than a 34, people would be all over it.

I've seen far too many "special snowflake" guns an shooting matches to use that as a yardstick of severity for my personal needs.

olstyn
01-11-2016, 02:19 PM
I've seen far too many "special snowflake" guns an shooting matches to use that as a yardstick of severity for my personal needs.

For that matter, who cares if it's "special snowflake" as long as it's accurate, durable, and it allows you to be competitive (or does whatever you need it to do)?

Trooper224
01-11-2016, 02:50 PM
For that matter, who cares if it's "special snowflake" as long as it's accurate, durable, and it allows you to be competitive (or does whatever you need it to do)?

George is more than welcome to his opinion and it happens to be one I value, even if it differs from mine. Today we have a myriad of choices in the gun world, so much so that there seems to be something for everyone, regardless of your personal quirks or desires.

olstyn
01-11-2016, 02:55 PM
George is more than welcome to his opinion and it happens to be one I value, even if it differs from mine. Today we have a myriad of choices in the gun world, so much so that there seems to be something for everyone, regardless of your personal quirks or desires.

For sure. If I came off as in any way not valuing his opinion, that wasn't my intent. I definitely appreciate the many contributions he makes to the forum's knowledge base. I simply don't view "special snowflake" or "different" status as a plus or a minus, that's all.

GJM
01-11-2016, 03:04 PM
George is more than welcome to his opinion and it happens to be one I value, even if it differs from mine. Today we have a myriad of choices in the gun world, so much so that there seems to be something for everyone, regardless of your personal quirks or desires.

I really was trying to be balanced. As I said it has a great out of the box trigger, and that is its distinguishing characteristic. I think the recoil issue isn't a PPQ problem per se, but a rounded grip problem, like we have been discussing, for example, with the USP vs P30 in another thread. None of this matters too much in a carry gun. I haven't seen the M2 get traction against a 34 for gaming, and doubt it will for a number of reasons that don't effect the M2 being a good carry gun. I like Walther pistols and just bought a PPS M2. I sure wish the left rear corner of the PPQ grip didn't whack the base of my thumb.

olstyn
01-11-2016, 03:12 PM
a rounded grip problem, like we have been discussing, for example, with the USP vs P30 in another thread.

I've been reading that thread off and on. Out of curiosity, have you ever compared the PPQ with its older sibling, the P99, and if so, what was your perception of the difference in their grips? Is it analogous to the USP vs P30 thing, in that the P99 has flatter sides? I ask because a P99c is currently my only gun, used for both carry and competition, and if I ever have the extra cash, I'd like to get either a full-size P99 or a PPQ M1 to use in the competition role while reserving the P99c for carry, and the grip differences might be a factor in the selection process.

GJM
01-11-2016, 03:15 PM
I've been reading that thread off and on. Out of curiosity, have you ever compared the PPQ with its older sibling, the P99, and if so, what was your perception of the difference in their grips? Is it analogous to the USP vs P30 thing, in that the P99 has flatter sides? I ask because a P99c is currently my only gun, used for both carry and competition, and if I ever have the extra cash, I'd like to get either a full-size P99 or a PPQ M1 to use in the competition role while reserving the P99c for carry, and the grip differences might be a factor in the selection process.


I have a P99, but really haven't compared closely. I got off to a bad start with my P99, having to send it back a few times to Waltjer, and never giving it enough time after. That isn't a reflection on the P99, just having too many guns.

I am on the way to the range but will explain what I meant about snowflake later.

Trooper224
01-11-2016, 03:24 PM
I really was trying to be balanced. As I said it has a great out of the box trigger, and that is its distinguishing characteristic. I think the recoil issue isn't a PPQ problem per se, but a rounded grip problem, like we have been discussing, for example, with the USP vs P30 in another thread. None of this matters too much in a carry gun. I haven't seen the M2 get traction against a 34 for gaming, and doubt it will for a number of reasons that don't effect the M2 being a good carry gun. I like Walther pistols and just bought a PPS M2. I sure wish the left rear corner of the PPQ grip didn't whack the base of my thumb.

I think you were being balanced George, so no worries from me. As for the rounded grip, I think it may be an aid in my case rather than a detriment. I'm not used to a severely contoured grip like the PPQ and it felt very strange to me at first, especially the hump in the back strap. I have large hands, large enough that some guns, like a J frame, are unusable for me. If the PPQ's grip was any shorter it would be a problem. However, due to the length of the grip the hump in the back strap fits firmly in the palm of my hand. This seems to help anchor the gun in place. Different strokes and all that.

LittleLebowski
06-04-2017, 09:16 PM
Dropping off this Walther $100 rebate here.

http://www.waltherarms.com/Rebate100/

GJM
06-04-2017, 09:37 PM
I have seen new PPQ M2 pistols under $500 on GB, which with a $100 rebate makes them obscenely underpriced.

Glad I have always maintained my ability to change my mind on things. :)

JHC
06-05-2017, 07:29 AM
I have seen new PPQ M2 pistols under $500 on GB, which with a $100 rebate makes them obscenely underpriced.

Glad I have always maintained my ability to change my mind on things. :)

Since this got resurrected I can't not comment that T224's review was superb. I'd missed it the first time through.

And yeah you've come around eh? Man, 4 lbs? Geez I wish they'd offer a nice thumb safety option.

Bart Carter
06-05-2017, 10:09 PM
Dropping off this Walther $100 rebate here.

http://www.waltherarms.com/Rebate100/

I can't believe that $100 is causing me to add to my Walther stash. :mad:

That is so much pistol for the money, hard to pass. And not just for the PPQ M2. Also for PPS, M1, 5", and more.

Auriemma
06-07-2017, 11:28 AM
I've been considering selling off my Tanfoglio Witness PS for the Walther PPQ 5" 9mm.
To all you folks that have been shooting it over the last year and some...
Have your opinions changed? Better/Worse? Is it as reliable as it was when new?
Any common issues that cropped up?
Thanks!

NH Shooter
12-19-2017, 08:33 PM
I'm joining the club;

https://www.gunbuyer.com/walther-ppq-m1-9mm-5-barrel-fiber-optic-front-sight-2-mags-2826721.html

I dig the paddles on my PPS Classic, so when I found the PPQ 5-inch in a M1 variant, I jumped on it. I'll be picking it up this week.

JodyH
12-19-2017, 09:52 PM
My wife's new "snowflake".
:cool:
22464

JodyH
12-19-2017, 10:03 PM
BTW: just owning a Walther makes you a snowflake in the grand scheme of things.

The popularity of the Glock 34 in competition isn't due to it being the "be all end all" superior gun, it's due to the superiority of the supporting industry behind it that been built up over 25+ something years now.
The 34 was the first competition specific pistol for the masses and the depth of the aftermarket support is unrivaled.
You can literally have a custom world class competition pistol, along with holster, carriers and mags delivered tomorrow via overnight FedEx with just a credit card and a Internet connection.
Nobody else comes close to a turn key competition pistol at their price point.

GJM
12-20-2017, 02:26 AM
BTW: just owning a Walther makes you a snowflake in the grand scheme of things.

The popularity of the Glock 34 in competition isn't due to it being the "be all end all" superior gun, it's due to the superiority of the supporting industry behind it that been built up over 25+ something years now.
The 34 was the first competition specific pistol for the masses and the depth of the aftermarket support is unrivaled.
You can literally have a custom world class competition pistol, along with holster, carriers and mags delivered tomorrow via overnight FedEx with just a credit card and a Internet connection.
Nobody else comes close to a turn key competition pistol at their price point.

True enough about a 34. The flip side, is besides TF base pads, there is nothing you need on a Q5 to compete, besides a thinner Dawson front sight or a red dot.

JodyH
12-20-2017, 07:34 AM
Walther's biggest problem is they've never really embraced the American market, and when they did it was primarily with Umarex crap like the P22 and the turd CCP.
The 5" PPQ and the Q5 are their first real run at the US gun gamer and both are great, with companies like Apex and Taylor Freelance supporting them I really think they'll take off.
The only thing that'll still hold them back is supply, Walther Germany is small and very conservative and they just aren't very aggressive when it comes to the US consumer (or the US market at all for that matter).

I took my first high volume shooting class with a P99 back in 2000 and it was my primary for a couple of years, in all the classes I attended and matches I shot I was the only Walther in a Glock/1911 world.

GJM
12-20-2017, 07:39 AM
I love the PPQ and Q5, find them incredibly shootable, accurate and reliable, and besides adding sights, they are ready to go as shipped.

For pure gaming, I like that with the 17/34 that the Glock OEM magazines plus Taran 140 mm bases hold two more rounds, that the grip is a bit larger, and you can easily get a lighter trigger.

JodyH
12-20-2017, 07:54 AM
I love the PPQ and Q5, find them incredibly shootable, accurate and reliable, and besides adding sights, they are ready to go as shipped.

For pure gaming, I like that with the 17/34 that the Glock OEM magazines plus Taran 140 mm bases hold two more rounds, that the grip is a bit larger, and you can easily get a lighter trigger.
Yea, Glock does have the magazine capacity thing down to a science.
Walther and H&K just refuse to go above 15 in a 17 round world, that German conservatism (Austrians are half Italian so they get a little crazy sometimes lol).
My original P99 came with 16 round magazines, but those were only available for about a year and they went to 15 from then on.
That new Apex trigger for the Q5 is ridiculously good as a USPSA bullet hose trigger, the equal of the Dawson STI DVC Limited in my opinion.
If you could just add some "dust cover" weight to the 5" Walther it'd make a great Limited pistol in .40, in 9mm it's a really good option for 3-Gun.

Just as an aside, I shot my fastest ever Bill Drill with a P99 back around 2002 in a Andy Stanford "Surgical Speed Shooting" class.
All the splits were sub .15 and I had a few .11's in there.
A few months later I smashed my trigger finger at work and I've been a .21-.23 split shooter ever since then. :(

NH Shooter
12-20-2017, 07:58 AM
BTW: just owning a Walther makes you a snowflake in the grand scheme of things.


As an old, blue-eye WASP (of German heritage) living in the Great White North (NH) I've pretty much come to terms with that. I have to admit that there's something about packing a Walther that feels so right. :-)

Speaking of the PPQ I know that rear plastic sight that comes with my model sports a .180" wide notch. I believe that will have to go. I also believe the FO front sight is the same that is on your gun, which I believe is .115" in width. Could you confirm the width of the front sight?


As a long time bullseye shooter I prefer sights with a healthy balance of speed for acquisition and precision for accuracy. What I don't prefer is a rear sight notch so large I can fly the Spruce Goose through it. I settled on a set from Dawson with a front blade and rear notch both measuring .125 inch. I find this combination works very well for me, allowing me to quickly acquire the sights, yet still providing precision.


My pistol shooting roots are also in Bullseye and to this day squeezing off shots to make tiny groups give me the giggles. A large black serrated rear blade with a patridge blade in the front is what I used for a very long time, including when I competed in a civilian PPC league with a 6-inch full rib Model 14. That was 30 years ago and since then my wobble zone has become gigantic, but I still appreciate a crisp sight picture and can still (occasionally) manage to break the shot when the alignment is good.

Question - are those sights (.125" notch with .125" blade) still working to your expectations? Does the longer sight radius of the 5-inch barrel provide enough "air" in the .125" notch for the .125" front sight? Seems like a very workable arrangement.

Depending on how the front FO sight works for me (which I believe is the same one used on the Q5), my plan was to either to replace just the rear with a 10-8 U-notch (http://www.10-8performance.com/walther-ppq-rear-sight/) or replace both with this Dawson Precision set (https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-walther-ppq-p99-fixed-charger-sight-set-black-rear-fiber-optic-front/). But based on your feedback, using a .125" front (FO or tritium) instead of the .100" that comes in the set I linked to is certainly an option I need to consider.

Finally, what holster are you using?

My thanks to both of you for your feedback!

GJM
12-20-2017, 08:05 AM
On my 5 inch, fixed site PPQ, I run the 10 8.140 wide rear with a Dawson .125 fiber optic front. This is a really good combination. The factory adjustable, plastic rear siBHT, has a habit of exiting the gun at inopportune times.

NH Shooter
12-20-2017, 08:20 AM
Walther and H&K just refuse to go above 15 in a 17 round world...

Another advantage of the M1 version of the PPQ - factory 17 round mags (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/walther-ppq-m1-magazine-17-rounds-9mm-steel-blued-723364200410.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=fn&ecList=7&ecCategory=201612).


If you could just add some "dust cover" weight to the 5" Walther it'd make a great Limited pistol in .40, in 9mm it's a really good option for 3-Gun.

I used to shoot IPSC and IDPA but now (like the last 15 years) I shoot almost entirely for recreational purposes. That said, I still practice the drills to keep my aging skills as sharp as possible without the limitations of arbitrary competition rules. With that in mind, my Gen 2 APL (3 ounces) will find a new home on the rail of the PPQ, and I'll need to order another JMCK OWB (http://www.jmcustomkydex.com/p/OWB-V2.html) holster for it.

My PPQ is scheduled to arrive at my local FFL today! :-)

JodyH
12-20-2017, 08:24 AM
Another advantage of the M1 version of the PPQ - factory 17 round mags (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/walther-ppq-m1-magazine-17-rounds-9mm-steel-blued-723364200410.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=fn&ecList=7&ecCategory=201612).
Just Mec-Gar +2's installed at the factory (I have 4 or 5 of those for my wife's M1).
Glock and S&W would stuff 19 in the same length magazine.

NH Shooter
12-20-2017, 08:24 AM
On my 5 inch, fixed site PPQ, I run the 10 8.140 wide rear with a Dawson .125 fiber optic front. This is a really good combination. The factory adjustable, plastic rear siBHT, has a habit of exiting the gun at inopportune times.

That is another combo I'm looking at! I like that the Dawson front is serrated and available in different widths. The .140" notch with a .125" FO front sounds like a great combo - thanks for the recommendation!

GJM
12-20-2017, 08:25 AM
Another advantage of the M1 version of the PPQ - factory 17 round mags (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/walther-ppq-m1-magazine-17-rounds-9mm-steel-blued-723364200410.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=fn&ecList=7&ecCategory=201612).



I used to shoot IPSC and IDPA but now (like the last 15 years) I shoot almost entirely for recreational purposes. That said, I still practice the drills to keep my aging skills as sharp as possible without the limitations of arbitrary competition rules. With that in mind, my Gen 2 APL (3 ounces) will find a new home on the rail of the PPQ, and I'll need to order another JMCK OWB (http://www.jmcustomkydex.com/p/OWB-V2.html) holster for it.

My PPQ is scheduled to arrive at my local FFL today! :-)

I have a pile of factory 17 round magazines for the PPQ M2 As the paddles, all the top guys shooting for Walther are using the M2 version.

NH Shooter
12-20-2017, 08:27 AM
Just Mec-Gar +2's installed at the factory...

That is good to know - thanks!

JodyH
12-20-2017, 08:31 AM
That is good to know - thanks!
The Beretta 92 and the Walther P99/PPQ magazines are pretty much identical, in fact you can cut a new mag release notch and use 92 mags in a P99.
It was a cheap way to get "high capacity" mags during the dark days of the Clinton ban.
The Mec-Gar Beretta 92 +2's slip right on P99/PPQ mags.

Another "secret" is the Magnum Research "Baby Desert Eagle" is just a rebranded P99 and the magazines are identical to M1 PPQ mags. You can often buy the Magnum Research branded mags (https://www.cdnnsports.com/sw99-p99-9mm-15rd-blue-magnum.html?___SID=U#.WjpoV1Q-eMI) for much cheaper than the Walther branded ones.

GJM
12-20-2017, 08:44 AM
That is another combo I'm looking at! I like that the Dawson front is serrated and available in different widths. The .140" notch with a .125" FO front sounds like a great combo - thanks for the recommendation!

I actually prefer this combo to the adjustable LPA tear in the Q5, which is about .115, and the Dawson .100 front I paired it with.

NH Shooter
12-20-2017, 08:44 AM
As the paddles, all the top guys shooting for Walther are using the M2 version.

I think in the competitive arena the M2 version makes the most sense, as well as for those who own other pistols with the traditional button release.

I was "introduced" to paddles six years ago when I purchased the PPS Classic for use as my EDC. I have since become quite accustomed to paddles and since the little Walther and I get along so well, I had no desire to change to the M2 version. Having the same magazine release on both of my primary pistols is my main reason for going with a M1, finding one in a 5-inch configuration put it over the top for me. My wife is a lefty (who refuses to shoot right-handed) and though she rarely goes to the range with me any more, the ambidextrous nature of the paddle set up is another plus. The recoil of the PPS is a bit snappy for here but I think she's going to be very comfortable with the PPQ. We also wear the same size gloves. :-)

At one time my gun collection was quite a bit larger. Over the years I sold off what I had little use for and reinvested in a smaller but higher quality collection. We now only have two 9mm handguns: the PPS and the PPQ.

Edit - I'm still using the stock plastic sights on the PPS, which have thus far worked out OK for me. I'm thinking I may upgrade to a set of the Trijicon HDs on that pistol.

Virtuosity Student
12-20-2017, 08:57 AM
These recent Walther threads are not helping the fact that a buddy is trying to trade me a PPQ for my G19. Must resist...

GJM
12-20-2017, 09:37 AM
I think in the competitive arena the M2 version makes the most sense, as well as for those who own other pistols with the traditional button release.

I was "introduced" to paddles six years ago when I purchased the PPS Classic for use as my EDC. I have since become quite accustomed to paddles and since the little Walther and I get along so well, I had no desire to change to the M2 version. Having the same magazine release on both of my primary pistols is my main reason for going with a M1, finding one in a 5-inch configuration put it over the top for me. My wife is a lefty (who refuses to shoot right-handed) and though she rarely goes to the range with me any more, the ambidextrous nature of the paddle set up is another plus. The recoil of the PPS is a bit snappy for here but I think she's going to be very comfortable with the PPQ. We also wear the same size gloves. :-)

At one time my gun collection was quite a bit larger. Over the years I sold off what I had little use for and reinvested in a smaller but higher quality collection. We now only have two 9mm handguns: the PPS and the PPQ.

Edit - I'm still using the stock plastic sights on the PPS, which have thus far worked out OK for me. I'm thinking I may upgrade to a set of the Trijicon HDs on that pistol.


This is a good reason to stay paddle.

I had to dehorn the crap out of my HD rear on PPQ. I used the PPS model to avoid adjustable rear “feature” of PPQ HD set.

JodyH
12-20-2017, 10:20 AM
Speaking of the PPQ I know that rear plastic sight that comes with my model sports a .180" wide notch. I believe that will have to go. I also believe the FO front sight is the same that is on your gun, which I believe is .115" in width. Could you confirm the width of the front sight?
I cannot find my calipers but I can tell you it's just a hair narrower than a Trijicon HD XR which is .122".
The Q5 FO looks to be .120" to me.

EricM
12-21-2017, 09:22 AM
I actually prefer this combo to the adjustable LPA tear in the Q5, which is about .115, and the Dawson .100 front I paired it with.

Thanks for mentioning this, I hadn't come across dimensions of the rear notch posted anywhere.

Out of curiosity, did you ever do any testing of 4" vs 5" PPQs with irons, in the manner you did with Berettas, finding you preferred the Centurion length?

GJM
12-21-2017, 09:33 AM
Thanks for mentioning this, I hadn't come across dimensions of the rear notch posted anywhere.

Out of curiosity, did you ever do any testing of 4" vs 5" PPQs with irons, in the manner you did with Berettas, finding you preferred the Centurion length?

I like them both! Maybe lean to 4 for carry and 5 for gaming and further shooting.

Zincwarrior
12-21-2017, 09:48 AM
Walther's biggest problem is they've never really embraced the American market, and when they did it was primarily with Umarex crap like the P22 and the turd CCP.
The 5" PPQ and the Q5 are their first real run at the US gun gamer and both are great, with companies like Apex and Taylor Freelance supporting them I really think they'll take off.
The only thing that'll still hold them back is supply, Walther Germany is small and very conservative and they just aren't very aggressive when it comes to the US consumer (or the US market at all for that matter).

I took my first high volume shooting class with a P99 back in 2000 and it was my primary for a couple of years, in all the classes I attended and matches I shot I was the only Walther in a Glock/1911 world.

How is the durability? Is this a 20,000 - 40,000 round gun?

GJM
12-21-2017, 10:01 AM
How is the durability? Is this a 20,000 - 40,000 round gun?

I haven’t reached 20k on a single Walther, but my wife and I have a half dozen, mostly the Q5, and not a one has given us any indication of durability issues. We have shot the crap out of them and only cleaned them every few months after 3-5,000 rounds with a few passes of a bore snake and adding lube. I wish I could say the same about the optics we have on them.

JodyH
12-21-2017, 10:40 AM
How is the durability? Is this a 20,000 - 40,000 round gun?
In my experience the P99 9mm is as durable and reliable as any H&K.
I don't have the round count on a PPQ to say the same, but poking around inside and looking at the components I'd say it's the equal of a VP9 in all respects.
Walther GmbH is good to go.
Umarex shit with the Walther logo on it... not so much.

That Guy
12-21-2017, 01:03 PM
In my experience the P99 9mm is as durable and reliable as any H&K.


That is a bold statement. I've had multiple parts break in my P99, and my girlfriend's "rescue" P99 needed parts replacement before becoming a working pistol (although granted, we don't know the history behind her gun). While I haven't owned an H&K, in light of Todd Green's durability tests, I can't agree with your statement of durability.

As long as a part doesn't actually break, the P99 is extremely reliable though. In that we are in full agreement.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

Kirk
12-21-2017, 01:15 PM
How is the durability? Is this a 20,000 - 40,000 round gun?

I shot one of the first PPQs I could find on Gunbroker when they first came out (4” M1) and put a little over 25,000 rounds through it in 8 months. To me, it is extremely well made. On par with H&K IMO

JodyH
12-21-2017, 01:21 PM
That is a bold statement. I've had multiple parts break in my P99, and my girlfriend's "rescue" P99 needed parts replacement before becoming a working pistol (although granted, we don't know the history behind her gun). While I haven't owned an H&K, in light of Todd Green's durability tests, I can't agree with your statement of durability.

As long as a part doesn't actually break, the P99 is extremely reliable though. In that we are in full agreement.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk
I shot a P99 for 4 of my most active shooting years (averaging 3-4 training classes a year back then) and not a single malfunction or parts breakage.
In volume of shooting per year with a pistol, that's only matched by my run immediately prior to and after my first AFHF with a P2000.
With both pistols I averaged around 2000 rounds a month for 3 or 4 year stretches.

That's why I said "In my experience the P99 9mm is as durable and reliable as any H&K".

In my experience (based on multiples of each with significant round counts through them all) there are three pistols I'd pull straight out of the box, load up with ammo and trust to carry without a single test round fired through them:
H&K P2000 9mm
Walther P99 AS 9mm
Glock 17 Gen2
(and probably in that order)

NH Shooter
12-21-2017, 03:29 PM
My PPQ is here and in the hour or so I've had to look it over I am thus far pleased! The trigger is excellent, if a little rough compared to the well-used rental I checked out previously. As expected the ergos are excellent and with the small back strap installed, it's a perfect fit for my hand. With a single-hand Bullseye hold, it's easy to get a straight squeeze back on the trigger and a good break. The longer sight radius of the 5-inch makes me smile and I'm really lovin' those paddles, even more so than those on the PPS!

As expected the sights leave much to be desired and will be replaced as planned. The front FO measures .115" wide and the plastic 2-dot rear has a notch that measures .180" in width. In combination with the longer sight radius, there's just way to much open space in the sight picture. I had hopes that the front FO sight would be useable, but IMO it's not - short of placing it in direct sunlight there's not much glow from it - certainly far less than the HiViz FO sights I run on my shotguns, which glow nicely inside with just indirect light when placed close to a window.

A unexpected equipment surprise - I had picked up a used Galco TR226 IWB holster for the G17 a few years ago and it's been sitting in a box unused. A quick test fit with the PPQ (sans WML) to discover it fits quite nicely. In fact I'm sitting here typing this post with the PPQ and 15-round mag at the 4 o'clock position and it's surprisingly comfortable. The 5-inch PPQ may be easier to carry than I had thought...

First range session will happen tomorrow!

Kirk
12-21-2017, 04:06 PM
My PPQ is here and in the hour or so I've had to look it over I am thus far pleased! The trigger is excellent, if a little rough compared to the well-used rental I checked out previously. As expected the ergos are excellent and with the small back strap installed, it's a perfect fit for my hand. With a single-hand Bullseye hold, it's easy to get a straight squeeze back on the trigger and a good break. The longer sight radius of the 5-inch makes me smile and I'm really lovin' those paddles, even more so than those on the PPS!

As expected the sights leave much to be desired and will be replaced as planned. The front FO measures .115" wide and the plastic 2-dot rear has a notch that measures .180" in width. In combination with the longer sight radius, there's just way to much open space in the sight picture. I had hopes that the front FO sight would be useable, but IMO it's not - short of placing it in direct sunlight there's not much glow from it - certainly far less than the HiViz FO sights I run on my shotguns, which glow nicely inside with just indirect light when placed close to a window.

A unexpected equipment surprise - I had picked up a used Galco TR226 IWB holster for the G17 a few years ago and it's been sitting in a box unused. A quick test fit with the PPQ (sans WML) to discover it fits quite nicely. In fact I'm sitting here typing this post with the PPQ and 15-round mag at the 4 o'clock position and it's surprisingly comfortable. The 5-inch PPQ may be easier to carry than I had thought...

First range session will happen tomorrow!

Excellent!! Any chance you could post some 25 yard groups by chance? I had mine before I shot any BE and so it wasn’t a huge factor, but I’m curious what these can do at 25.

GJM
12-21-2017, 04:21 PM
Pretty sure I posted 50 yard groups in the Q5 thread — they shoot crazy good.

Kirk
12-21-2017, 06:18 PM
Pretty sure I posted 50 yard groups in the Q5 thread — they shoot crazy good.

Nice man! Thanks for the heads up, I’m going to check it out.

I may pick one up. I think it could go well with my P30 LEM (I’ll carry that and compete with the PPQ).

NH Shooter
12-21-2017, 06:58 PM
Excellent!! Any chance you could post some 25 yard groups by chance? I had mine before I shot any BE and so it wasn’t a huge factor, but I’m curious what these can do at 25.

Indoor range limited to 20 yards, but Ill post some pics tomorrow.

Did a little dry firing today and the trigger is settling in very nicely. The break at the wall is excellent, with little-to-no disturbance of the sight picture. I'm really liking this PPQ and I can easily see it becoming perhaps my most favored pistol in 35 years of hand gunning.

Looking forward to squeezing off my first shots with it tomorrow!

NH Shooter
12-23-2017, 05:25 PM
First 150 rounds of Geco 124 FMJ, Federal 124 HST +P and a few Winchester 124 +P Silver Tips fired over two sessions (yes, not a lot)...

Session 1 was marked with frequent failures to go fully into battery, slide missing fully closing by about 3/16". The rounds would feed with no issue, but the slide would not quite close about 25% of the time. All it would take was a light push on the rear of the slide and it would fully close, as if it was just barely hanging up on something. Since I basically took the pistol out of the case, ran a patch through the barrel and then took it to the range, I figured a thorough cleaning, degreasing of the shipping oil and lube with Slip 2000 EWL would sort it out. I took it home and did just that.

Session 2 (today) started the same way - out of the first five rounds of Geco 124 FMJ, on two the slide failed to completely close. At this point a major case of WFT! was registering in my old brain. Becoming disgusted I stepped back from the firing line to think it over. I realized up to that point every shot I had fired was two hands standing unsupported, taking excessive time to squeeze each shot off for maximum accuracy and in the process, letting my grip loosen.

I stepped back up to the line and loaded up two more mags with five rounds each. Instead of aiming, I simply held the pistol in a firm two-hand grip at chest level and watched the slide cycle for each shot. Five shots fired, perfect function. Dropped the first mag and loaded the second - five rounds fired, no malfunctions. In fact, the slide cycle was smooth and ejection looked good.

Loaded more and went back to aimed fire with two hands, but with the more manly grip and a quicker, more deliberate squeeze of the trigger. From that point forward, it ran without any hiccups. It was like someone flipped the Run switch, perhaps it just needed some rounds through it to get everything properly seated.

Once that cleared up, I discovered the PPQ is a joy to shoot. Though I didn't do any formal accuracy testing using a rest (or supporting my hands on bags), it's obvious the PPQ has plenty of accuracy potential if the shooter does his/her part. Here are a couple of targets from the first session, two-handed standing unsupported;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ppqtarget-1.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ppqtarget-2.jpg


I disliked the OEM sights as much as I expected I would. But what surprised me was the vertical dispersion of my shots, I figured it would be lateral dispersion I would struggle with. The narrow (.115") front sight is hard for me to see and it turns out that keeping the top of the front sight even with the top of the rear was my biggest challenge with all the space in the notch. With sights better suited for me the PPQ is going to be one accurate handgun.

I need to get many more trouble-free rounds downrange before I have complete confidence, but the PPQ looks like it's going to be a winner for me - and a definite improvement over the Glock. I like the ergonomics of the grip, the excellent trigger and the overall feel of the pistol. Once I install sights better suited for me, the longer sight radius will be fully appreciated as well.

I think this acquisition is going to work out very nicely. Photos of the pistol and another range report next week.

JodyH
12-23-2017, 06:20 PM
Most new guns get a couple magazines hosed into the berm like it beat up my sister.
Then I settle down and start my actual evaluation of the gun.

NH Shooter
12-23-2017, 07:11 PM
Most new guns get a couple magazines hosed into the berm like it beat up my sister.
Then I settle down and start my actual evaluation of the gun.

I should have done the same.

BTW, does the Q5 come with the red (reduced power) recoil spring?

JodyH
12-23-2017, 07:19 PM
I should have done the same.

BTW, does the Q5 come with the red (reduced power) recoil spring?
I don't know and cannot check until Monday morning... it's currently wrapped up under the Christmas tree.
GJM

GJM
12-23-2017, 07:30 PM
Between my wife and I, we have five Q5, two five inch, and three four inch PPQ models. Not a one has needed break in rounds to function 100 percent. Next range session, you might want to shoot some rounds with just one hand and a light grip, and see how function is.

GJM
12-23-2017, 07:35 PM
I don't know and cannot check until Monday morning... it's currently wrapped up under the Christmas tree.
GJM

Not sure if I would call it red or blue, but the Q5 and five inch both have this spring (didn’t look at a four inch).

22567

NH Shooter
12-23-2017, 08:05 PM
Not sure if I would call it red or blue, but the Q5 and five inch both have this spring (didn’t look at a four inch).

22567

Yes, same as in mine - it's the reduced power spring Walther puts only in the 5-inch 9s. All other PPQs get the silver (standard strength) spring.

Need to get more rounds through mine, hopefully next week.

Thanks for responding!

NH Shooter
12-29-2017, 06:35 PM
Session 3

Had some time to hit the local indoor range today and put another 100 trouble-free rounds down the pipe. I'm still struggling with the .115" front blade in a .180" rear notch, so the next step is to replace the sights with something wider in the front (probably .125") and a narrower notch (probably .140"). I also plan on trying some 147 loads.

The target below was shot "slow fire" at 60 feet, two hands unsupported using Geco 124 FMJ. The square is three inches. As you can see by this target I had some lateral dispersion today (which I attribute to the less-than-ideal sight picture), but at least called the low shot that missed the sticky note;


22690

JHC
12-29-2017, 06:43 PM
Legit 20 yard shooting NH! Man, that's sweet.

NH Shooter
12-29-2017, 06:53 PM
Legit 20 yard shooting NH! Man, that's sweet.

Thanks JHC!

NH Shooter
03-01-2018, 01:57 PM
With a 10-8 rear sight (http://www.10-8performance.com/walther-ppq-rear-sight/) and 10-8 tritium front sight (http://www.10-8performance.com/walther-ppq-front-sight/) installed and some American Eagle 147 grain FMJ ammo in the bag, I holstered the PPQ in my new JMCK IWB #3 and headed to the indoor range. Though I'm still not satisfied with my ability to shoot the PPQ with precision (at 64, more hand shake than ever), I managed this on a B29 target at 25 feet, which simulates a B27 at 25 yards. The ES on the target below is 1-3/4 inches.

Up close and faster the PPQ works well for me, as does working the Harries with my hot rod Malkoff MD2 hand held (1000 lumen Wildcat head). I have a ways to go but the slow progress with the new pistol is satisfying!


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ppqtarget-3.jpg