Les Baer/Para USA Hybrid 1911?

[GardoneVT]

I just ran across an article about some double stack 1911s finished by Les Baer on original Para USA frames, originally intended for an FBI contract. My intuition and experience suggests they were 1:1 paperweights suitable only for film prop use , but Les Baer isn't known for making junk and then submitting them for government testing.

What's the story behind these pistols? Did Baer find a way to get them to run well enough for serious use by the FBI?

Photo of the piece in question:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/JerrysDad/baer1.jpg

[TC215]

Those guns were to replace HRT's Hi-Powers. Matt Gish was in charge of the project, but left Baer before the guns were delivered. The guns did not do well at all, and the contract was cancelled after 75 of the guns were delivered (out of 250 ordered, I think).

After that, they spec'd out a single stack gun, and Springfield got the contract.

[TiroFijo]

The frames were of the original Para Ordnance company, made in Canada.

[HCM]

Those guns were to replace HRT's Hi-Powers. Matt Gish was in charge of the project, but left Baer before the guns were delivered. The guns did not do well at all, and the contract was cancelled after 75 of the guns were delivered (out of 250 ordered, I think).

After that, they spec'd out a single stack gun, and Springfield got the contract.

This ^^^

They ran better than the average para but not good enough for serious use. The para mags were always a weak point. They are the reason the Pro was spec'ed out as a single stack.

[farscott]

This article has some info the Para/Baer guns and the subsequent Pro, including a mention of why the Pro ended up with Metalform magazines.


The Les Baer SRP was designed for the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) to replace their Wayne Novak-customized Browning Hi-Powers. Les and his team of pistolsmiths started with a Para-Ordnance P14-45 frame (.45 ACP/14rds) and added a variety of custom parts and touches, including Wayne Novak’s LoMount sights and Walter Birdsong’s Black-T finish. Unfortunately, Matt Gish, the pistolsmith who did most of the work on the trial SRP pistols left Baer to start his own shop, Gunsmithing Inc.. Baer tried to cut some corners on the delivered contract pistols, including the use of a different finish than the Birdsong Black-T. Once delivery began, there were lots of problems, mostly magazine related. In the end, pistolsmith Steve Nastoff was called in to correct the delivered pistols’ deficiencies. Only 75 SRP pistols were delivered out of the 250 ordered before the contract was canceled.
Following this experience, the FBI rewrote the specifications to stipulate a single stack magazine, which opened up the field to a whole lot of gunsmiths. In the end, Springfield Armory got the contract because they could meet the demand and warranty. But they also had problems. Again, Steve Nastoff was bought in – he was there during the trials – and Springfield Armory switched from Wilson Combat to Metalform magazines.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm

[Dave Williams]

I read an article by Bob Taubert, former FBI Agent, and he mentions some of the pistols reached 100K rounds in training.

[dragonfly]

At one time I had saved a magazine article on Les Baer's FBI HRT guns. I cannot find that darn article :-(. Here is a picture of my LB Prowler IV build on my supplied to ParaOrdnance P-14 frame. There are surprisingly few posts on these pistols. Anyone with a great more information on these missing links?
7769

[TCinVA]

The bottom half of that gun uses a Para frame and Para magazines. Nothing you can do to the top of the gun is going to make up for those fundamental flaws.

Some high-speed military types tried the double-stack 1911 thing a bit later with 2011 based pistols in .40 and had to abandon those as well because it seems like nobody has quite cracked the code on double stack 1911 magazines for duty use yet.

[dragonfly]

The bottom half of that gun uses a Para frame and Para magazines. Nothing you can do to the top of the gun is going to make up for those fundamental flaws.

Some high-speed military types tried the double-stack 1911 thing a bit later with 2011 based pistols in .40 and had to abandon those as well because it seems like nobody has quite cracked the code on double stack 1911 magazines for duty use yet.


That seems to be the consensus out there on the P-14 Baer, my experience with that pistol is the opposite. Wickedly accurate and totally reliable. Although for a Baer, my round count is embarrassing low, it shoots and feeds perfectly, so I got lucky on that. I am using MecGar magazines, not sure if that matters.

[HCM]

The bottom half of that gun uses a Para frame and Para magazines. Nothing you can do to the top of the gun is going to make up for those fundamental flaws.

Some high-speed military types tried the double-stack 1911 thing a bit later with 2011 based pistols in .40 and had to abandon those as well because it seems like nobody has quite cracked the code on double stack 1911 magazines for duty use yet.

In fairness, I understand the 40 cal 2011's ran better than the 45 cal Para's. Not Glock like, but better.

[Sigfan26]

Making 5 guns run (on Para frames) isn't difficult (when you've got a team of some of the best smiths in the country)... Making a semi production pistol run like that?... Not so much.

[theJanitor]

Here is a picture of my LB Prowler IV build on my supplied to ParaOrdnance P-14 frame.


Saw this on 1911addicts. Strange that they called it a prowler on your invoice.

[farscott]

At one time I had saved a magazine article on Les Baer's FBI HRT guns. I cannot find that darn article :-(. Here is a picture of my LB Prowler IV build on my supplied to ParaOrdnance P-14 frame. There are surprisingly few posts on these pistols. Anyone with a great more information on these missing links?
7769

I cannot tell from the picture whether it has the coned barrel (aka "the blast wafer"). If it does that would explain the Prowler model name. Here is a Prowler III showing the barrel.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/BaerProwler1.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/BaerProwler1.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/BaerProwler3.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/BaerProwler3.jpg.html)

[TiroFijo]

In fairness, I understand the 40 cal 2011's ran better than the 45 cal Para's. Not Glock like, but better.

IN IPSC the 1911 wide frames (STI and clones) work extremely well with 40, most people load the rounds longer than standard to take advantage of the magazine and lower the pressure. Nobody would use a pistol in competition that is not super reliable.

I think the problem with the wide body 1911s in 45 ACP is mostly due to variances in mags, some wide body 1911s run extremely well too. The transition to single feed in the magazine is crucial, and this is a more difficult thing to do in a 1911 since the pistol slide and frame just below it are not originally designed for wide mags.

The Para Ordnance guns were not very well made, the initial aluminum frames cracked the rails early, the ignition parts were crap, etc., etc. But the basic design was sound when done properly, even in 45. I've seen many 1911s (and had one) that were built on Para frames and run perfectly. My lowly Para with mostly factory parts had about one stoppage every 3500 rounds, but it took a lot of checking for wear in small parts to really have any confidence.

[GardoneVT]

IN IPSC the 1911 wide frames (STI and clones) work extremely well with 40, most people load the rounds longer than standard to take advantage of the magazine and lower the pressure. Nobody would use a pistol in competition that is not super reliable.

I think the problem with the wide body 1911s in 45 ACP is mostly due to variances in mags, some wide body 1911s run extremely well too. The transition to single feed in the magazine is crucial, and this is a more difficult thing to do in a 1911 since the pistol slide and frame just below it are not originally designed for wide mags.

The Para Ordnance guns were not very well made, the initial aluminum frames cracked the rails early, the ignition parts were crap, etc., etc. But the basic design was sound when done properly, even in 45. I've seen many 1911s (and had one) that were built on Para frames and run perfectly. My lowly Para with mostly factory parts had about one stoppage every 3500 rounds, but it took a lot of checking for wear in small parts to really have any confidence.

I bought two new build Para Black Ops 14.45 models . Neither had left the factory with a properly tensioned extractor or machined barrel- more sharp edges then a blank at the Taurus factory in Brazil. Which makes sense as the safeties were obviously Taurus sourced parts.

After addressing the extractor and strategically sandpapering the barrels, the pistols only failed twice in 50 rounds instead of twice every 6 rounds. Further research determined both pistol frames were likely out of spec as the barrels on both were riding the link . Should've known when the field strip procedure required tapping the slide stop pin out , which I've never seen before or since on any 1911.

I suppose if one tossed the small parts and slide/ barrel and re-built it from the frame up you'd have a winning gun, but out of the box Paras lost out to Rock Island Armory for finish quality and reliability. Good thing they're out of business now.

[TiroFijo]

The original Para Ordnance pistols were spotty quality. At some time in the late '90s- early '00s the steel framed models got pretty decent, if you were willing to go trough with a fine comb and replace most of the small parts. It all went dowhill in qualitiy from there, apparently the latest US made guns were even worse than the last ones made in Canada.

In short, usually a piece of crap.

[45dotACP]

I bought two new build Para Black Ops 14.45 models . Neither had left the factory with a properly tensioned extractor or machined barrel- more sharp edges then a blank at the Taurus factory in Brazil. Which makes sense as the safeties were obviously Taurus sourced parts.

After addressing the extractor and strategically sandpapering the barrels, the pistols only failed twice in 50 rounds instead of twice every 6 rounds. Further research determined both pistol frames were likely out of spec as the barrels on both were riding the link . Should've known when the field strip procedure required tapping the slide stop pin out , which I've never seen before or since on any 1911.

I suppose if one tossed the small parts and slide/ barrel and re-built it from the frame up you'd have a winning gun, but out of the box Paras lost out to Rock Island Armory for finish quality and reliability. Good thing they're out of business now.

They were bought by Remington...who now makes 1911s.

Here's where I give the side eye...

[dragonfly]

I cannot tell from the picture whether it has the coned barrel (aka "the blast wafer"). If it does that would explain the Prowler model name. Here is a Prowler III showing the barrel.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/BaerProwler1.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/BaerProwler1.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/BaerProwler3.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/BaerProwler3.jpg.html)

It has a standard barrel and bushing. From what I can tell the iv is different than the iii, I believe this iv was based on the first HRT FBI pistols Les was making. You'll note Les's name on that invoice, I spoke to him prior to the build, and this gun was his suggestion. Just wish I had bigger hands.:cool:

[dragonfly]

I bought two new build Para Black Ops 14.45 models . Neither had left the factory with a properly tensioned extractor or machined barrel- more sharp edges then a blank at the Taurus factory in Brazil. Which makes sense as the safeties were obviously Taurus sourced parts.

After addressing the extractor and strategically sandpapering the barrels, the pistols only failed twice in 50 rounds instead of twice every 6 rounds. Further research determined both pistol frames were likely out of spec as the barrels on both were riding the link . Should've known when the field strip procedure required tapping the slide stop pin out , which I've never seen before or since on any 1911.

I suppose if one tossed the small parts and slide/ barrel and re-built it from the frame up you'd have a winning gun, but out of the box Paras lost out to Rock Island Armory for finish quality and reliability. Good thing they're out of business now.

So how would I know what Baer did to the lower? I know the pistol never has had any problems, it just shoots great, so do you think the used para parts or Baer on the lower? This just gets more interesting ! Thanks to all for the information.

[TiroFijo]

I think Baer used nothing but the frame, magazines, grips and grip screws.

[farscott]

It has a standard barrel and bushing. From what I can tell the iv is different than the iii, I believe this iv was based on the first HRT FBI pistols Les was making. You'll note Les's name on that invoice, I spoke to him prior to the build, and this gun was his suggestion. Just wish I had bigger hands.:cool:

The original Prowler IV used the upper from the Prowler III with the Para lower. Not sure about the original Prowler and Prowler II.

[HCM]

They were bought by Remington...who now makes 1911s.

Here's where I give the side eye...

Remington was already making 191's before they bought Para. Apparently the Para quality got so bad under Remington they have stopped selling Para / Remington guns in hopes of salvaging the name later.

[farscott]

So how would I know what Baer did to the lower? I know the pistol never has had any problems, it just shoots great, so do you think the used para parts or Baer on the lower? This just gets more interesting ! Thanks to all for the information.

It is possible to use just the Para frame, grip screws, and grips. I know because I had a John Harrison P13.45 that used just those parts. Even the Para magazine catch and trigger were replaced with Gun Craft parts. I suspect Baer did much the same as the Para parts were always inconsistent. My guess is Baer started with a stripped frame and added decent parts during the build.

[HCM]

The original Para Ordnance pistols were spotty quality. At some time in the late '90s- early '00s the steel framed models got pretty decent, if you were willing to go trough with a fine comb and replace most of the small parts. It all went dowhill in qualitiy from there, apparently the latest US made guns were even worse than the last ones made in Canada.

In short, usually a piece of crap.

This ^^^. Is spot on. I had a late 1990s P16 Limited. It ran, it shot ok. A stock 2011 is a FAR better gun in terms of accuracy, reliability and durability.

I think the heavy use of 2011's and hand loads in USPSA/ IPSC has given a skewed picture of 2011 reliability. If you take a stock 2011 and run it with quality factory ammo, it runs. When bubba is "tuning" the gun and hand loads to enhance competitive advantage rather than reliability the results are predictable. The same with "tuning" your mags to jam 4 or 5 extra rounds into the same 140mm space.

Despite this, I can totally see why a guy who needs to be his own armorer in the dark side of wherever-Stan would prefer a Glock over. 2011.

[45dotACP]

Remington was already making 191's before they bought Para. Apparently the Para quality got so bad under Remington they have stopped selling Para / Remington guns in hopes of salvaging the name later.

Makes sense...

I'm still fighting shy of the Remington brand of 1911.