Talking gear encourages emphasis on the wrong part of the equation

[HopetonBrown]

There have been some recent threads on P-F from new members about which gun to carry, or which pistol action is better. Later in the thread after being asked, the original poster says he has had no formal training. I seem to have this conversation frequently at a range I shoot at. People with no formal training want to know what gun for home defense, or which caliber, or which Glock trigger is best.

When I ask if they've ever had formal training, I usually get "no, but..."

1. "No but... the guy that owns the range I shoot on was in Vietnam".
2. "No but... my uncle is a sheriff"
3. "No but... I've been hunting since I was 12"
4. "No but... my buddies and I do drills we see on YouTube out in the desert"

Am I encouraging bad behavior by talking about trigger mods or which Glock Gen is better with people who would probably be better served investing that time and brain power into seeking out professional instruction? Or should I just quit being Capt. Buzzkill and tell them how yes, I like the TTI connector better than the Ghost connector?

[Luke]

I've turned into a giant snob. I refuse to talk guns with others. I went with my dad to 2 local big box stores last week that sold guns and every time we got to the counter I had to walk away. I just can't do it. The amount of dumb surrounding the firearm community is mind boggling. if I hear people talking about guns and they want me to join I ask two questions, have you had formal training and do you shoot some sort of matches? If the answers no to both I'm already weasleing my way out the door. It's not the nicest thing to do but I just can't handle it.

So my advise is just smile and nod if this is your profession, obviously promote training but other than that smile and wave..

And I know we all start somewhere.. But WOW.

[45dotACP]

I try to avoid engaging in discussions that have the potential to become derperiffic...as a rule anything that starts with "Glock vs..." I try to avoid. Otherwise, I say "depends on the shooter" for a lot....

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

All that is necessary for the triumph of derp is that good men do nothing..............

[VegasHK]

Being a full time instructor, I guess you could say I "shoot for a living". The amount of disinformation, and absolute bad information out there is incredible. I absolutely avoid being sucked in if I can help it. When I'm asked direct questions I definately fall back on: "there is no hard fast, there are variables."

When I have recruits that we are teaching, I will give them my true, honest opinion, but they are there to be taught, and they want to learn. Tommy Tactical that just wants to discuss 9mm vs. .40 or Glock vs. Sig, I avoid like the plague.

[YVK]

"Seek professional training" has become one of cookie cutter responses that have started to irritate me. Absence of formal training doesn't disqualify a person from seeking the best gear, whatever "best" means, or even suggests wrong priorities. I would share with anyone who's dumb enough to ask for my opinion; fortunately, nobody is asking.

[JodyH]

I stopped giving advice to the majority of people who ask me about guns.
I'm tired of giving them my opinion based on years of instructing, research, competition, training, observation and testing only to have it completely ignored because their brother in law owns a Taurus and he says it has a lifetime warranty and is just as good for half the money.
Screw 'em. It's not my ass on the line.

[eb07]

I stopped giving advice to the majority of people who ask me about guns.
I'm tired of giving them my opinion based on years of instructing, research, competition, training, observation and testing only to have it completely ignored because their brother in law owns a Taurus and he says it has a lifetime warranty and is just as good for half the money.
Screw 'em. It's not my ass on the line.

That's where I am at. Hours of fielding stupid questions, giving good advice, taking the time to care, then they turn around do the opposite and buy a model 1 parts build with a bsa red dot and a Taurus semi and an uncle mikes cross draw then continue to complain to me and ask questions when their junk is jamming or breaking like I have ownership of their dumb decisions. I just play stupid these days. Not my problem.

[45dotACP]

"Seek professional training" has become one of cookie cutter responses that have started to irritate me. Absence of formal training doesn't disqualify a person from seeking the best gear, whatever "best" means, or even suggests wrong priorities. I would share with anyone who's dumb enough to ask for my opinion; fortunately, nobody is asking.

Canned responses aren't necessarily an evil...

"Buy a Glock. Get some training. Practice a lot. Read or watch Ben Stoeger's 'foundations' and work on that" is about the only advice I'll give to someone who asks "What gun should I buy?" or "What gun is the best?"

When it all boils down to it, if you encounter the rare enough experience where you need to cap a bad guy, you'll likely be just fine with any gun that will cycle through a full magazine with no problems. A glock, a 1911, a revolver, a Sig, a Smith and Wesson or a Beretta will all work. Dare I say it...even a Taurus might do for a shot or two. If you want to know what works the best though, you'll need to shoot a lot.

When you shoot a lot, you'll discover a lot of the so called "facts" you read on gun fora are probably just a lot of oft repeated "anecdata" thrown out and pulled in by various gun nerds and...let's call them "Gear enthusiasts"

Glocks are uncomfortable, 1911's are unreliable, a heavy DA revolver trigger is unshootable, a Sig slide will never stay open because your thumb is always on the release switch, a Smith and Wesson won't hit the broadside of a barn and a Beretta's safety/decocker will accidentally engage and kill you on the streets. All of these things are apparently true on the internet, so anymore, I just don't bother saying "well...maybe not. Have you tried shooting the gun?"

After all...who am I to argue with the immense and incredible knowledge of AR15.com or Glocktalk...

[nwhpfan]

"Seek professional training" has become one of cookie cutter responses that have started to irritate me. Absence of formal training doesn't disqualify a person from seeking the best gear, whatever "best" means, or even suggests wrong priorities. I would share with anyone who's dumb enough to ask for my opinion; fortunately, nobody is asking.

Amen...

I mean, if pretty much "everyone that's anyone" learned from Rob Leatham and/or Jerry Barnhart, or some lineage thereof....

I want to learn from the guys that trained Rob and Jerry.

Is their something to it that of the most capable people in the use of firearms, rifles, shotguns, handguns happen to be self taught?

I'm not so sure I would tell somebody to go take a class; there are some very, very good trainers out there but at the same time the qualification these days seems to be to raise your hand and declare yourself a trainer... Oh, and some good video equipment and editing skills.

Maybe some basic "don't shoot your eye out stuff" and the advice to get ammo and make noise. Pretty much everything you need to know actually "is" on the internet...or the pre internet place of information; a book.

[Beat Trash]

I stopped giving advice to the majority of people who ask me about guns.
I'm tired of giving them my opinion based on years of instructing, research, competition, training, observation and testing only to have it completely ignored because their brother in law owns a Taurus and he says it has a lifetime warranty and is just as good for half the money.
Screw 'em. It's not my ass on the line.

Yep...

And then they have the nerve to come back to you demanding you help fix their sub-par purchase and make it as functional as what you suggested in the first time. But without spending any money, time or effort!

It only gets worse when you are talking to people about an AR.

[HopetonBrown]

Wow, this thread made the Doodie Project "A Call To Troll". It's internet famous now.

[BJXDS]

All that is necessary for the triumph of derp is that good men do nothing..............

+1, but I do agree with they way everyone feels. I witnessed several older women, with admittedly NO Experience, being sold 38 snubs and I overheard the salesman try to up sell a 357 Mag with the theory that she could shoot 38 or 357. He sold her a box of each and told her to go to the range and see the difference. I kinda wanted to see that!

The problem is there, is a large majority of people that feel if they have a gun they will be safe. The other issue is that there is no doubt they want to be able to protect themselves and family, but they are either not willing to do what it takes and or have no idea of what it takes, time, effort and expense wise.

Believe me I am not for any additional anti 2A regs, but the minimum requirements for most ccw permits for someone with little or no experience is a Joke!

The simple answer is Quality training, then the time and effort required to maintain and improve. The hard part is how do we get the "Average" person to understand that? They believe the basic ccw class is quality training. They have no comprehension this is the starting point, the minimum required.

The truth is, personal protection is a lifestyle NOT an after thought, and most do not understand, and are not willing to make a life style change.

I honestly believe most people don't know what they don't know! and worse may not really care.

[RJ]

All that is necessary for the triumph of derp is that good men do nothing..............

This.

I am a noob. But after two years participating online, three different annual gun range memberships, two competitve pistol classes, and one Steel Match later, I have woken up to how much bad, unsolicited advice is out there.

I would ask, of those that can contribute, please help us. We all start somewhere, and given how many are coming into the gun community, it is very likely you will find someone who has zero knowledge, or worse, 'heard it from a buddy' about so and so.

To the experts here, for what it's worth:

Be patient.

Don't 'volunteer'.

If you are asked, answer the question, as best you can. Share your perspective, including the 'why'. Then, wait for the next question.

If the conversation closes out, suggest they seek further knowledge and training, and encourage them to come to the range often.

Some folks will never learn, preferring to cling to their source of derpitude. All you can do with them is smile and wave.

But every new shooter is a potential 2A and RKBA supporter, and, eventually, they will get it.

[SAWBONES]

In my experience most who ask for "advice" don't really want advice; they want confirmation of their preexisting (and usually unspoken) inclinations.

[NETim]

I am a training evangelist. Everyone who knows me knows that if a firearms related question is posed, I will answer the question to the best of my knowledge and that answer will be quickly followed by a short sermon on the need for training, particularly if it's for SD purposes.

[orionz06]

Talking about buying cool gear leads to talking about using it and that sometimes leads to people becoming better shooters. Welcome it, do what you can.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[waktasz]

A lot of "formal trainers" are clowns. Maybe even the majority of them. Now what?

[rob_s]

I stopped giving advice to the majority of people who ask me about guns.


This is the enlightened state, and the end-state along the path of firearms and shooting knowledge.

The early-to-middle state is that of the OP; learning new things, and concerned that others don't know what he knows, or think what he thinks. Some never leave this state, others like yourself move on to true enlightenment. Others still make a career out of talking on the radio/internet/facebook about the topic and thus refuse to ever reach true enlightenment thanks to the almighty dollar and minor celebrity.

[rob_s]

Talking about buying cool gear leads to talking about using it and that sometimes leads to people becoming better shooters. Welcome it, do what you can.

This is, or can be, also true. But it's also probably not worth the time invested, nor the headaches involved.

The most important thing is to get a gun. I used to answer the "I'm planning on buying a bushmaster..." question with "don't, get a Colt, here's 95 reasons why" to "yep, that's awesome, you should hurry before they sell out!" it's really irrelevant what gun they buy, they just need to buy a gun. Ain't nobody getting training, competing, or otherwise improving if they don't have a gun, and everyone that has a gun is that much less likely to vote for or support some gun-control-advocating parasite (aka "politician").

[JodyH]

Oh, I still like to beat this topic to death on the Internet.
[emoji41]

[orionz06]

This is, or can be, also true. But it's also probably not worth the time invested, nor the headaches involved.

The most important thing is to get a gun. I used to answer the "I'm planning on buying a bushmaster..." question with "don't, get a Colt, here's 95 reasons why" to "yep, that's awesome, you should hurry before they sell out!" it's really irrelevant what gun they buy, they just need to buy a gun. Ain't nobody getting training, competing, or otherwise improving if they don't have a gun, and everyone that has a gun is that much less likely to vote for or support some gun-control-advocating parasite (aka "politician").

It's only a headache if you let it be.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[GardoneVT]

In my experience most who ask for "advice" don't really want advice; they want confirmation of their preexisting (and usually unspoken) inclinations.

Precisely.

I consider it a case- by-case thing. If the shooters look serious I'll offer resources for them to seek qualified instruction.

Otherwise I keep my trap shut, because the fact is not everyone is at the gun range because they like shooting or want to improve their abilities . The term "shooting range" is IMO a misnomer-we should call these facilities the "showoff lanes" because for 95% of folks that's what they are.

Most folks go to the firing line as a social experience, like a gun show but where you actually get to shoot a few rounds.
Asking or offering advice to improve a strangers shooting is in some ways like asking a car show patron if they'd like a faster way to drive to work. It's not about improvement, the range is a social venue where guys* get to show off their Diamond Plate Sigs and FDE Glocks while debating Obama's latest speech on gun control.

* I've noticed women are an excellent exception to this. Every female I've seen at mine and other ranges has equalled or out-performed her male companion. When it comes to classes they also pay attention and don't file a Butthurt Form when the instructor offers correction.

[Peally]

I'm liking posts left and right.

I don't bother helping people unless they're very close and may actually listen to what I'm saying. With everyone else it's generally a waste of everyone's time, they already know what they want.

[NETim]

* I've noticed women are an excellent exception to this. Every female I've seen at mine and other ranges has equalled or out-performed her male companion. When it comes to classes they also pay attention and don't file a Butthurt Form when the instructor offers correction.

Heh. I am fortunate in that the job I hold puts me in contact with lots of 20-30 something y/o females. When they ask me a question about firearms, they REALLY are looking for guidance for the most part. It makes my secondary position as a training geek much easier.

[JodyH]

I actually enjoy doing women's only CCW classes, classes with "gun guy" husband and the "little lady" are a damn chore.

[PNWTO]

The "lead instructor" at the local range vaunts his "credentials" often: during 4 years in the Corps as an armorer he qualified "Expert" with the M9 three times... I no longer offer advice in public due to the hurting of his butt. My approach now is very symmetrical to JodyH.

No I won't give my $.02, but if you want to learn more about shooting buy some ammo and a sixpack for me and let's hit the range for an afternoon.

[BehindBlueI's]

A lot of "formal trainers" are clowns. Maybe even the majority of them. Now what?

Peer reviews, reviews from people you trust, and a solid look at their (real) qualifications. There are some morons out there, some who probably believe what they are selling and some who are the PT Barnum of the firearms world.

I teach about two classes a year solely because I want the information out there. I had no desire to be a trainer and originally just tried to give the info to other trainers, but was convinced that it was better material presented by someone who really understood it and can answer questions. I do *not* teach handgun fundamentals. If you can't handle a gun safely and can't keep your bullets on a 7y target, you can't take my class. I partnered with a shooting coach who runs the logistics and addresses the shooting mechanics, but that's not the focus of the class. I teach techniques for countering random violence based on observations, interviews, etc. the knowledge gained over years as a detective dealing with people shot, stabbed, and robbed in random encounters. So, evaluate my background, see what others who know a little something who've taken the class think, and then make up your mind. If it sucks, you're out less than a $100 and got some range time out of the deal AND got to run through scenarios from real robberies, see some video of real robberies and have body language broken down, etc.

Now, should you come learn handgun fundamentals from me? Probably not. What are my quals to teach that? Because I tell you I'm better than the average bear? Even if I am (and I am), does that mean I can teach you to be? Maybe. But at this point, you'd be beta testing as I have no track record and no objective proof students do better after.

Personally I think you hit diminishing returns fairly early if your goal is simply to be a safe CCW guy. Don't get me wrong, the better a shot you are and the better trained you are the more circumstances you can handle. Learn basic gun safety and handling, learn to disguise your draw and to consistently, smoothly, and quickly deploy a functioning weapon, and learn basic marksmanship and you'll quite literally be ready for 90%+ of what faces the target of a street robbery, etc. Tack on some 1st aid, some conflict management, and some body language/proxemics training focused on seeing trouble coming and avoiding it and you're golden for all but the worst of the worst situations.

[Tamara]

Just yesterday at work I had a guy in there who was suffering from analysis paralysis. You get 'em every now and again; they've decided to buy a gun and because they're analytical people, they researched the topic as best they could on the internet, and now they're wandering from showcase to showcase holding the P07 and the P250 and the used Glock 19 and wondering if strikers are safe enough or hammers are better and which feels best in their hand and...

Sometimes, like yesterday, I wind up blurting out "You say you don't even know how to shoot a pistol at all and you're sitting here worried about certain details of the trigger pull and how the gun sits in your hand and hammers and strikers and what you read on the internet and it's all just bunk. How the gun feels in your hand, unloaded and not shooting and standing at the display counter, has nothing to do with how well you're going to shoot the gun. That can only be measured with scoring rings and a timer.

Look, we don't carry junk brands of guns here. The fact of the matter is that we could pull five guns at random out of these showcases, stuff 'em in a pillowcase, give it a spin, and if you reached in there, grabbed one out at random, took the little two-hour basic handgun class from our trainer, bought a case of ammo and really applied yourself to shooting the thing and regular dry-fire practice, you will be lights out with it unless you're just completely physically inept."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's Dunning-Kruger Discount Day at the local gun store and range!

I only give advice to folks who I know and ask a serious question. The problem with training/competition and males is that when you start you can stink at a manly (this is for men) dominance activity. You fail as a warrior. Thus, talk gear rather than talk or test skills.

It was like lifting weights. At first, I couldn't lift anything but my buddy was a pro lifter type and eventually I became decent.

[Chance]

When someone asks me questions, I'll usually give a brief synopsis, and then point the person to the origin of my answer, or a reasonable facsimile thereof (if I heard it in person in a class, I'll try and find an article by that trainer so the inquirer can check for him/herself). The inquirer will then ignore me, and do whatever they want.

When what they did doesn't work, and they ask me for advice, my first question is, "Did you read that article I linked you to?" They will of course respond, "Uh... no." I'll repeat my original synopsis, and send them another link to the article.

Wash-repeat as many times as necessary. If they really care, they'll eventually check my source. At that point, they've probably wasted enough time and money that they'll pay attention.

[spinmove_]

Just yesterday at work I had a guy in there who was suffering from analysis paralysis. You get 'em every now and again; they've decided to buy a gun and because they're analytical people, they researched the topic as best they could on the internet, and now they're wandering from showcase to showcase holding the P07 and the P250 and the used Glock 19 and wondering if strikers are safe enough or hammers are better and which feels best in their hand and...

Sometimes, like yesterday, I wind up blurting out "You say you don't even know how to shoot a pistol at all and you're sitting here worried about certain details of the trigger pull and how the gun sits in your hand and hammers and strikers and what you read on the internet and it's all just bunk. How the gun feels in your hand, unloaded and not shooting and standing at the display counter, has nothing to do with how well you're going to shoot the gun. That can only be measured with scoring rings and a timer.

Look, we don't carry junk brands of guns here. The fact of the matter is that we could pull five guns at random out of these showcases, stuff 'em in a pillowcase, give it a spin, and if you reached in there, grabbed one out at random, took the little two-hour basic handgun class from our trainer, bought a case of ammo and really applied yourself to shooting the thing and regular dry-fire practice, you will be lights out with it unless you're just completely physically inept."

I personally suffer from analysis paralysis so much it's not even funny. I research the absolute crap out of stuff and still question if I made the right decision or not shortly after making said decision half the time. At this point, I've been through the "research, buy, try, practice, re-evaluate, inner debate, sell, repeat" cycle enough to figure out that there are a few truths surrounding the endless gun gear minutiae:

1.) Stick to simple and cost-effective yet durable and robust solutions.
2.) Get proper training from a reputable source.
3.) Practice until you can't screw it up.

Currently I'm on the Step 2 part of that whole cycle. The gear is a freaking trap, if you ask me, and it is very easy to let yourself get mired in it. There are far more important things to worry about and concentrate on than the gear. In fact, I find that the more I do concentrate on other things the more I want to simplify my gear so that I don't worry about it as much.

[Tamara]

The problem with training/competition and males is that when you start you can stink at a manly (this is for men) dominance activity. You fail as a warrior. Thus, talk gear rather than talk or test skills.

The typical shooter at the public range views hitting the x-ring as an occasional fortuitous accident as they scatter their random holes across the target, not something that should happen every time you align the sights and press the trigger properly.

I think engaging in some kind of competition is vital for getting better because otherwise people never understand that they suck. I don't care if it's a casual bullseye league or shooting bowling pins or IDPA or USPSA or whatever.

[Peally]

The typical shooter at the public range views hitting the x-ring as an occasional fortuitous accident as they scatter their random holes across the target, not something that should happen every time you align the sights and press the trigger properly.

I think engaging in some kind of competition is vital for getting better because otherwise people never understand that they suck. I don't care if it's a casual bullseye league or shooting bowling pins or IDPA or USPSA or whatever.

+1

Until you know what you don't know, you can't really improve.

If you take a class once every month and you think it'll make you a better shooter, you're doing it wrong.

Gabe covered it well in Stoeger's latest podcast. Between different classes and competition everything trains you well in something and lacks in something else. Focusing on one avenue of improvement is a huge handicap. Of course most people don't train period and I'm preaching to the choir here.

[rwa]

Who they have trained with seems to provide more credibility in that community than how good you actually are.
The above quote is from the Doodie Project in regards to this thread. I am here to troll. Seriously, I too have noticed instructor qualifications in the shooting community do seem to be based mostly on who you rub elbows with, which classes you have attended, labels, tags, and acronyms of where you have been, and so forth. As a life long educator, I am more interested in actual performance. Skills and knowledge are dandy. Ability and performance are what counts. There are countless "self defense instructors" popping up all over the map. Picking one that is affordable, close, and competent can be almost impossible. Yeah, I know there are big name instructors that are a safe bet. But the logistics behind attending their classes can be beyond the reach of many.

I used to teach driver education, and at one time I was a Chief Instructor for the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Poll a room full of men who drive a vehicle with the question, "How many of you are above average drivers?" The majority of hands shoot straight up. Same is true of the shooting community.

[Robinson]

If you take a class once every month and you think it'll make you a better shooter, you're doing it wrong.

I disagree. Taking a class once every month may or may not turn you into a good shooter, but taking even a couple classes per year can make you a better shooter.

Are you saying that if a person can't train constantly then they shouldn't bother training at all? Or are you just suggesting a person should strive for well-rounded training?

[Peally]

Sorry, "good" is probably a better word there than "better". Shooting one bullet a year will technically make you better.

[Chance]

Seriously, I too have noticed instructor qualifications in the shooting community do seem to be based mostly on who you rub elbows with, which classes you have attended, labels, tags, and acronyms of where you have been, and so forth. As a life long educator, I am more interested in actual performance. Skills and knowledge are dandy. Ability and performance are what counts.

If your performance metric is competition, then yeah, who cares what your background is, who you've trained with, or the circles you run with? Shoot gooder equal better.

If your focus is self defense, you're a civilian, you've trained with Robin Brown, and subscribe to James Yeager's YouTube channel, then that context is pertinent.

[11B10]

To ALL of you here at pistol.forum: When an opportunity arises for me to give advice (more often than you might think) - I direct every one of them to this site. Even when you folks are posting a "shut down," you're teaching. Please understand I am not trying to suck up - I have never found so much to learn - in one spot - as I have here. The only regret I have is I wasted so much time on other sites. I was raised to believe very strongly in giving credit where credit is due. IMHO, in America today, people are so very eager to jump all over another when they screw up, but just take a job well done for granted. I see absolutely nothing wrong with "attaboys." Thanks, everyone.

[okie john]

Am I encouraging bad behavior by talking about trigger mods or which Glock Gen is better with people who would probably be better served investing that time and brain power into seeking out professional instruction? Or should I just quit being Capt. Buzzkill and tell them how yes, I like the TTI connector better than the Ghost connector?

Probably. But a lot of times you have to get through the gear conversation to have the skill conversation.


Okie John

[45dotACP]

Just yesterday at work I had a guy in there who was suffering from analysis paralysis. You get 'em every now and again; they've decided to buy a gun and because they're analytical people, they researched the topic as best they could on the internet, and now they're wandering from showcase to showcase holding the P07 and the P250 and the used Glock 19 and wondering if strikers are safe enough or hammers are better and which feels best in their hand and...

Sometimes, like yesterday, I wind up blurting out "You say you don't even know how to shoot a pistol at all and you're sitting here worried about certain details of the trigger pull and how the gun sits in your hand and hammers and strikers and what you read on the internet and it's all just bunk. How the gun feels in your hand, unloaded and not shooting and standing at the display counter, has nothing to do with how well you're going to shoot the gun. That can only be measured with scoring rings and a timer.

Look, we don't carry junk brands of guns here. The fact of the matter is that we could pull five guns at random out of these showcases, stuff 'em in a pillowcase, give it a spin, and if you reached in there, grabbed one out at random, took the little two-hour basic handgun class from our trainer, bought a case of ammo and really applied yourself to shooting the thing and regular dry-fire practice, you will be lights out with it unless you're just completely physically inept."
You should have a blog.

;)

[YVK]

A lot of "formal trainers" are clowns. Maybe even the majority of them. Now what?

Just brainstorming here: avoid them?

[Gray222]

All that is necessary for the triumph of derp is that good men do nothing..............

Likewhore comment.

But true.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm not quite to where Jody is at in the advice enlightenment spectrum, but I'm also not nearly as experienced in my shooting or helping others.

If I know someone is serious, I'll gladly discuss. If I don't know for sure, I may try and suss it out I may not.

My default for "what gun should I buy?" Is: probably a G19 or very similar. Buy a good quality gun and then run at least as much as the gun cost in ammo through it. Then you may have an idea what you like or dislike about it and where you want to go from there.

But the bottom line is always "it depends" and "you don't really know until you've put some work in with it."

How it feels ultimately doesn't matter. My G19s feel super awkward in my hands. I still shoot them better, when pushing for speed, than anything save my 226s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Flexmoney]

If your focus is self defense, you're a civilian, you've trained with Robin Brown, and subscribe to James Yeager's YouTube channel, then that context is pertinent.

Did you just mention Brownie and Yeager together?

[Tamara]

Yes, and...?

[Joe in PNG]

With the right knowledge of shooting fundamentals, decent gear, and lots and lots and lots of good, disciplined, timed and logged practice, a person could possibly become a pretty good shooter without taking a single class. Better than the person who takes lots of classes, but seldom practices what they learn.

[Peally]

With the right knowledge of shooting fundamentals, decent gear, and lots and lots and lots of good, disciplined, timed and logged practice, a person could possibly become a pretty good shooter without taking a single class. Better than the person who takes lots of classes, but seldom practices what they learn.

Agreed. It's like taking a "how to weight train" class and not actually applying what you learned to your own private practice.

[Chance]

Did you just mention Brownie and Yeager together?

Yes (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18402-Skill-at-arms&p=388704&viewfull=1#post388704).

[HopetonBrown]

A lot of people are clowns. Maybe even the majority of them. Now what?

FIFY

I'd recommend and take a class with you, to be honest. Due diligence is needed in every aspect of life, not just gun life. So people just need to exercise their due diligence.

[rob_s]

It's only a headache if you let it be.

Very zen of you.

it's only, also, a waste of time if you let it be. Or, if you engage at all, for that matter.

[Flexmoney]

Yes (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18402-Skill-at-arms&p=388704&viewfull=1#post388704).

Would you clarify the context?

[Chance]

Would you clarify the context?

Finding a single source for Yeager's various transgressions is challenging, but here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9032-Yeager-sigh)are (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17802-James-Yeager-VS-Instructor-Zero)four (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6633-Freedumb-of-Speech)threads (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16174-quot-Dont-Become-A-Cop-quot)where you can start digging. Keep in mind that when Yeager posts something outlandish, he usually takes it down shortly thereafter, so some of the source material is missing.

[ford.304]

Just yesterday at work I had a guy in there who was suffering from analysis paralysis. You get 'em every now and again; they've decided to buy a gun and because they're analytical people, they researched the topic as best they could on the internet, and now they're wandering from showcase to showcase holding the P07 and the P250 and the used Glock 19 and wondering if strikers are safe enough or hammers are better and which feels best in their hand and...

Sometimes, like yesterday, I wind up blurting out "You say you don't even know how to shoot a pistol at all and you're sitting here worried about certain details of the trigger pull and how the gun sits in your hand and hammers and strikers and what you read on the internet and it's all just bunk. How the gun feels in your hand, unloaded and not shooting and standing at the display counter, has nothing to do with how well you're going to shoot the gun. That can only be measured with scoring rings and a timer.

Look, we don't carry junk brands of guns here. The fact of the matter is that we could pull five guns at random out of these showcases, stuff 'em in a pillowcase, give it a spin, and if you reached in there, grabbed one out at random, took the little two-hour basic handgun class from our trainer, bought a case of ammo and really applied yourself to shooting the thing and regular dry-fire practice, you will be lights out with it unless you're just completely physically inept."

This matches me so completely I can't even... Only thing was, the crusty guy at the gun counter pointed me at a Taurus revolver and a judge... and then what I ended up buying was a GP100 because "semi-autos need tested with hundreds of rounds of carry ammo to make sure you've found one of the hollow points they'll actually run reliably."

Blah, overthinking everywhere.

[Beat Trash]

Just yesterday at work I had a guy in there who was suffering from analysis paralysis. You get 'em every now and again; they've decided to buy a gun and because they're analytical people, they researched the topic as best they could on the internet, and now they're wandering from showcase to showcase holding the P07 and the P250 and the used Glock 19 and wondering if strikers are safe enough or hammers are better and which feels best in their hand and...

Sometimes, like yesterday, I wind up blurting out "You say you don't even know how to shoot a pistol at all and you're sitting here worried about certain details of the trigger pull and how the gun sits in your hand and hammers and strikers and what you read on the internet and it's all just bunk. How the gun feels in your hand, unloaded and not shooting and standing at the display counter, has nothing to do with how well you're going to shoot the gun. That can only be measured with scoring rings and a timer.

Look, we don't carry junk brands of guns here. The fact of the matter is that we could pull five guns at random out of these showcases, stuff 'em in a pillowcase, give it a spin, and if you reached in there, grabbed one out at random, took the little two-hour basic handgun class from our trainer, bought a case of ammo and really applied yourself to shooting the thing and regular dry-fire practice, you will be lights out with it unless you're just completely physically inept."

I need to make a note to myself. "Go visit Tamara's gun store. Bring pop corn. Enjoy the show..."

Guys like your analysis paralysis customer will be the first to come in and trade off whatever gun they had bought for something else that will make them a better shooter. Because they will be convinced that if they buy the same type of gun that their favorite youtube instructor used in the video that they should be able to shoot as well as the video they watched.

They will never admit that maybe the issue is not the hardware, but that their skill set sucks.

[Exurbankevin]

I think engaging in some kind of competition is vital for getting better because otherwise people never understand that they suck. I don't care if it's a casual bullseye league or shooting bowling pins or IDPA or USPSA or whatever.

This, this, a thousand times this, because it develops the idea of "Can you perform X task with your gun of choice in terms of Y conditions" inside your head. Everyone is great dancer until somebody starts watching you...

[Flexmoney]

Would you clarify the context?


Finding a single source for Yeager's various transgressions is challenging...

I'm familiar with Yeager and Brownie. I was wondering about YOUR context, and why you mentioned the two together?

[PNWTO]

I'm familiar with Yeager and Brownie. I was wondering about YOUR context, and why you mentioned the two together?

Not to speak for Chance but in the linked thread it was funny that the two channels were related by YT, due to the general embarassing jackassery of the two.

[PNWTO]

I think the title is also very relevant to the various -isms we encounter. One that I heard most recently was, yet again, that "most shootings happen within seven yards so that is where practice should be."

Coincidentally, the 7 yard line is also where the most masturbating happens.

[Chance]

I'm familiar with Yeager and Brownie. I was wondering about YOUR context, and why you mentioned the two together?

They're both delusional, incompetent nutjobs teaching unsafe techniques to well meaning people who don't know any better.

[Flexmoney]

They're both delusional, incompetent nutjobs teaching unsafe techniques to well meaning people who don't know any better.

Unsafe techniques being taught?

[Rosco Benson]

In my experience most who ask for "advice" don't really want advice; they want confirmation of their preexisting (and usually unspoken) inclinations.

This. If someone really wants guidance, I'll do my best to steer them correctly. If they just want validation of what they've already decided or purchased, I just smile and say "I'm sure that will work out for you".

Rosco

[PNWTO]

This. If someone really wants guidance, I'll do my best to steer them correctly. If they just want validation of what they've already decided or purchased, I just smile and say "I'm sure that will work out for you".

Rosco

Yep. "Hey sounds good, go rock it and let me know how it goes."

[spinmove_]

Unsafe techniques being taught?

Indeed. That's kind of a serious accusation. I'd like to know what unsafe techniques both are teaching.

[Default.mp3]

They're both delusional, incompetent nutjobs teaching unsafe techniques to well meaning people who don't know any better.IMO, there is a distinct difference between instructors who simply have no clue (Brown), versus those that have legitimate skills but stray out of their areas of expertise (Yeager). After all, Paul Gomez (for whom the Paul-E-Palooza is named after) has apparently stated more than once that Yeager runs one of the best basic pistol courses around. I've also heard from many different people that Yeager is much more friendly/normal in person, compared to his online persona, which may very well just be a clever marketing trick. I'd never take a Tactical Response course, but I'd steer someone toward Yeager 100% of the time for fundamentals if the alternatives were Brown or American Defense Enterprises.


Indeed. That's kind of a serious accusation. I'd like to know what unsafe techniques both are teaching.Perhaps not in his basic courses, but Yeager does hold CQB courses, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1om9rx46mE
That shit's a goat rodeo I'd want to have zero part in.

Also, while not an unsafe technique being taught per se, there have been egregious safety violations at his courses, that he actually goes on to defend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hiTrgzHhVk
Source: http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/08/22/tactical-response-training-try-not-to-shoot-the-photographer/

[PNWTO]

That shit's a goat rodeo I'd want to have zero part in.

What the fuck are those clowns wearing? My deal with Yeager, aside from his sheer idiocy, is the fact he hosts these "feel good look cool" classes, and the brand/clientele he endorses and creates. If he was just to come out and say "I'll happily let these guys come and play out their fantasy under my supervision, as long as they pay me" then, hey, whatever, not my drink. But the fact he carries himself the way he does, he's a clown.

Brownie just goes without saying.

[spinmove_]

IMO, there is a distinct difference between instructors who simply have no clue (Brown), versus those that have legitimate skills but stray out of their areas of expertise (Yeager). After all, Paul Gomez (for whom the Paul-E-Palooza is named after) has apparently stated more than once that Yeager runs one of the best basic pistol courses around. I've also heard from many different people that Yeager is much more friendly/normal in person, compared to his online persona, which may very well just be a clever marketing trick. I'd never take a Tactical Response course, but I'd steer someone toward Yeager 100% of the time for fundamentals if the alternatives were Brown or American Defense Enterprises.

Perhaps not in his basic courses, but Yeager does hold CQB courses, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1om9rx46mE
That shit's a goat rodeo I'd want to have zero part in.

Also, while not an unsafe technique being taught per se, there have been egregious safety violations at his courses, that he actually goes on to defend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hiTrgzHhVk
Source: http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/08/22/tactical-response-training-try-not-to-shoot-the-photographer/

Fair enough. I don't really know anything about Brown. Yeager strikes me as that guy that knows what he knows rather well, but is opinionated, outspoken, and LOVES being the asshole that everyone hates. That said, it, at the very least, seems like his heart is in the right place. I don't personally agree with his cameramen being down range, but then again, not my circus and not my monkeys. As for his HRCC course, I don't think I'd go take it for multiple reasons.

[PNWTO]

Fair enough. I don't really know anything about Brown. Yeager strikes me as that guy that knows what he knows rather well, but is opinionated, outspoken, and LOVES being the asshole that everyone hates. That said, it, at the very least, seems like his heart is in the right place. I don't personally agree with his cameramen being down range, but then again, not my circus and not my monkeys. As for his HRCC course, I don't think I'd go take it for multiple reasons.

I would say he knows what he knows, too, which in reality isn't a whole lot. And I firmly believe he is in it for the money and the self-masturbation of exposure.

[Chance]

I've also heard from many different people that Yeager is much more friendly/normal in person, compared to his online persona, which may very well just be a clever marketing trick.

I'm open to his behavior being a marketing trick. At that point however, my question is, "Marketing what, and to whom?" If your persona is aggressive, your judgement such that you think it's okay to make a YouTube video threatening to "start killing people", and your idea of a funny joke is to produce a liability-waiver form facilitating duels, what exactly are you marketing? Even if Yeager puts on a good class, would you want a prosecutor investigating your self-defense shooting taking a sharp look at you're association with him?


Unsafe techniques being taught?

Read the links I've provided. I've nothing further to say on the matter.

[Hot Sauce]

I'm open to his behavior being a marketing trick. At that point however, my question is, "Marketing what, and to whom?" If your persona is aggressive, your judgement such that you think it's okay to make a YouTube video threatening to "start killing people", and your idea of a funny joke is to produce a liability-waiver form facilitating duels, what exactly are you marketing? Even if Yeager puts on a good class, would you want a prosecutor investigating your self-defense shooting taking a sharp look at your association with him?

This definitely happens during court cases after self-defense incidents. Think twice if your instructor might make it look like you're taking lessons from a maniac.

I remember seeing Yeager as part of the line up at Paul-E-Palooza and being quite surprised, because every single other name I saw on that list were LEGIT professionals.

[Flexmoney]

Read the links I've provided. I've nothing further to say on the matter.


You put it out there that he is teaching techniques that are unsafe. If that is the case, you'd being doing this board a service to point those out specifically.

[RJ]

Did you just mention Brownie and Yeager together?


Would you clarify the context?


I'm familiar with Yeager and Brownie. I was wondering about YOUR context, and why you mentioned the two together?


Unsafe techniques being taught?


You put it out there that he is teaching techniques that are unsafe. If that is the case, you'd being doing this board a service to point those out specifically.

No offense, and in the nicest possible way, but you've asked four questions and then made a statement; it seems reasonable to me folks might be confused about your point.

So, what is it?

[HopetonBrown]

No offense, and in the nicest possible way, but you've asked four questions and then made a statement; it seems reasonable to me folks might be confused about your point.

So, what is it?
Maybe he took a Yeager class? ;-)

[Default.mp3]

Maybe he took a Yeager class? ;-)Or he could just be trying to encourage critical thinking, albeit in a rather passive-aggressive manner. Flexmoney's a fucking beast as far as I'm aware, so I'm pretty sure he's not in it to defend Yeager as a fanboy.

[Tamara]

Or he could just be trying to encourage critical thinking...

Is that even allowed on the internet? :confused:

[RJ]

Or he could just be trying to encourage critical thinking, albeit in a rather passive-aggressive manner. Flexmoney's a fucking beast as far as I'm aware, so I'm pretty sure he's not in it to defend Yeager as a fanboy.

Understood; the chances someone posting here knows more than I do is damn near certain - usually a lot more.

Which is why I asked.

I've used the Socratic Method myself, but sometimes it's kind of the responsibility of the person making the post to make their point, rather than have the relatively denser board participants (like me! :cool:) having to slowly draw it out of them in a Q&A.

[Chance]

Or he could just be trying to encourage critical thinking, albeit in a rather passive-aggressive manner.

Right. Because if there's one thing Yeager inspires, it's critical thinking.

[Default.mp3]

Right. Because if there's one thing Yeager inspires, it's critical thinking.He sure can, if you approach the issue with the right mindset. Controversy always gives a good opportunity to practice some steelmanning. Dogpiling Yeager is easy; objectively assessing Yeager as an instructor as a whole, both the good and bad, can actually be an intellectually stimulating exercise, and can lead to other insights into the training industry.

[Peally]

You could do that with any idiot on the internet, but it's usually a lot more work than it's worth ;)

[Flexmoney]

This isn't real hard. I was asking Q's because I was looking for the A's. Didn't really get them. As mentioned, dog-piling is easy, especially if the crowd is receptive.

I didn't get the original context of Yeager/ Brownie. Other than their...um...shared internet bravado, I thought them to be diametrically opposed.

Then, with the mention of "dangerous techniques", well that seemed like something we could all benefit from hearing about. Sounds like good discussion. Doesn't sound like we are going to get it though. Thats fine. Lets talk about me* instead. ;)






* I qualify as "any idiot on the internet", I think.

[Flexmoney]

Maybe he took a Yeager class? ;-)

Do you even own a Glock 19???

[Mr_White]

I was looking for the A's

Flex, the 'dangerous techniques' that I think are being mentioned stem from the big Brownie thread here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18402-Skill-at-arms I think most of the relevant videos are posted in the first few pages of the thread.

I don't know whether this is precisely what he teaches, but Brownie demonstrates facing pretty much uprange, drawing a gun and pointing it uprange on the way to pointing it downrange over his shoulder. Also, shooting steel really close and apparently pointing the gun into himself while holstering.

I don't know enough specifics about James Yeager to make any comment about techniques he demonstrates or teaches.

[Dagga Boy]

This isn't real hard. I was asking Q's because I was looking for the A's. Didn't really get them. As mentioned, dog-piling is easy, especially if the crowd is receptive.

I didn't get the original context of Yeager/ Brownie. Other than their...um...shared internet bravado, I thought them to be diametrically opposed.

Then, with the mention of "dangerous techniques", well that seemed like something we could all benefit from hearing about. Sounds like good discussion. Doesn't sound like we are going to get it though. Thats fine. Lets talk about me* instead. ;)






* I qualify as "any idiot on the internet", I think.

Pop quiz: is this a dangerous technique or not? Is this sound? Is this acceptable, especially for people who are not doing it professionally, but at tactical band camp?
I don't think it is and I think it is dangerous. There is more in the video, but I can't fathom watching again. You want to pay money and go do this, awesome. That is where I am at. If folks want to spend money to go to this stuff, I no longer care. I will say this, if this is a class I was running you would not see this on video, and several folks would not be there.

[Flexmoney]

Flex, the 'dangerous techniques' that I think are being mentioned stem from the big Brownie thread here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18402-Skill-at-arms I think most of the relevant videos are posted in the first few pages of the thread.

Wow. 52 pages in less than a month! Thanks for the summary. Much appreciated. I didn't have time to read that even skipping 10 pages at a pop.

[Flexmoney]

You want to pay money and go do this, awesome.

Well, it does say "high risk" right there in the title, right? Maybe all his classes say that though?

[Tamara]

5371

If folks want to spend money to go to this stuff, I no longer care. I will say this, if this is a class I was running you would not see this on video, and several folks would not be there.

After the last shoot house class I attended I leafed through the several hundred photos I'd shot, choosing which ones were suitable for publication. While there were a couple of incidents where folks muzzled their own hands while reaching for a doorknob, there were no cases of people muzzling anybody else that I saw (two-person teams, pistols) but I knew that there were several shots where the tricks of photographic perspective from the catwalk would make it look like there was some questionable muzzle discipline and, rather than engage in long and pointless discussions with internet hecklers about focal lengths and perspective, I just would not use those pictures. Hell, I've run into that before with pictures of square range classes where one is, by necessity, forced to photograph from behind the line.

That said, the snippet in question is not an issue of perspective: That dude is pointing his weapon, what appears to be a Kriss Vector, at the heads of a succession of the random paying customers who are playing his "teammates" for the weekend. That this was not left on the cutting room floor but instead was rather deemed "cool" enough to be left in the rock video advertisement speaks volumes to me.

To echo Flexmoney: Well, it does say "High Risk" right on the box.

[LSP972]

... tactical band camp...


You bastard; coffee all over my keyboard… again.:D

.

[GAP]

This is larping for the gun community.. Except you can die. At least in the video you can only be made fun of because your computer's processor is no longer relevant.


http://youtu.be/KZ04mfAY2BU

[Luke]

What's wrong with larping? I'm a 3rd generation larper. Been married 10 years to the chief larpers daughter. I got 2 friends in the county larp. I'm a lifetime sponsor on the L.A.R.P.

[BehindBlueI's]

This is larping for the gun community.. Except you can die. At least in the video you can only be made fun of because your computer's processor is no longer relevant.


http://youtu.be/KZ04mfAY2BU

At least those guys probably realize it's fantasy. Once they get laid, they'll probably move on.

[GAP]

Just to get back on topic, since I diverted, most advice falls on deaf ears. I've noticed this even with most of my friends who ask... They've already made up their minds based on advertisements and just want you to agree with them.

[Dagga Boy]

5371


After the last shoot house class I attended I leafed through the several hundred photos I'd shot, choosing which ones were suitable for publication. While there were a couple of incidents where folks muzzled their own hands while reaching for a doorknob, there were no cases of people muzzling anybody else that I saw (two-person teams, pistols) but I knew that there were several shots where the tricks of photographic perspective from the catwalk would make it look like there was some questionable muzzle discipline and, rather than engage in long and pointless discussions with internet hecklers about focal lengths and perspective, I just would not use those pictures. Hell, I've run into that before with pictures of square range classes where one is, by necessity, forced to photograph from behind the line.

That said, the snippet in question is not an issue of perspective: That dude is pointing his weapon, what appears to be a Kriss Vector, at the heads of a succession of the random paying customers who are playing his "teammates" for the weekend. That this was not left on the cutting room floor but instead was rather deemed "cool" enough to be left in the rock video advertisement speaks volumes to me.

To echo Flexmoney: Well, it does say "High Risk" right on the box.

Additionally, the big difference between your class and this one is a lack of supervision and safety as a number one priority. Where is the instructor or safety officer in the photo? Where are helmets, armor and identifiers? Shoot house work (especially with novices) is not where you play games with instructor ratios. There were some worse things in the video from my recollection, but the issue is the seriousness of safety. Keep in mind the best folks in the world get people killed doing this stuff. What is missing is not that a guy flagged someone, it is the photo of him getting stuffed by an instructor who should have been in position to intervene.

[Trooper224]

Keep in mind the best folks in the world get people killed doing this stuff.

This was brought home to me years ago, when I saw a Navy SEAL blow two of his own toes off with a shotgun during a breaching exercise. Even the most switched on folks can turn high speed into dead stop with a single slip.

[Chance]

How many qualified instructors are teaching open-enrollment, team-based CQB classes? I know Pat Rogers does. Other than him, it seems like most of the civilian-accessible training of this variety was iffy at best, and a goat rope at worst.

[LSP552]

Chance [How many qualified instructors are teaching open-enrollment, team-based CQB classes? I know Pat Rogers does. Other than him, it seems like most of the civilian-accessible training of this variety was iffy at best, and a goat rope at worst.]

They don't make enough money for me to teach an open enrollment class for team CQB.

[Dagga Boy]

How many qualified instructors are teaching open-enrollment, team-based CQB classes? I know Pat Rogers does. Other than him, it seems like most of the civilian-accessible training of this variety was iffy at best, and a goat rope at worst.

My question is the need for team based CQB. Two person home or business stuff...sure for folks with a "team" that can work together. GJM and his wife would be a good example. So, it is not a "need". It is a want. Hence, tactical fantasy band camp. It is just very dangerous, and I actually don't want the students attracted to this. Its America, and you can do whatever you want for your pursuit of happiness, and i don't care either way if you are happy or there is a tragic end. Pat and I talk often, usually a couple times a week. Pat knows how to run these as safe as you can, and with the goal of getting people to think and how to think under stress. Shoot houses do not pose difficult shooting problems, but done correctly they are heavy in problem solving while shooting, which is a very good thing.

[Dagga Boy]

They don't make enough money for me to teach an open enrollment class for team CQB.

Any of us who have done this for a living seriously know that the stress of "properly" running these things is huge. Even with tons of preparation and excellent protocols, things can go wrong. It also takes tons of predatory work to even get people to a skill level where I would do this.

[LSP552]

Shoot houses do not pose difficult shooting problems, but done correctly they are heavy in problem solving while shooting, which is a very good thing.

Agree, and would add that done incorrectly, they are about the most dangerous thing possible.

[SLG]

This is where I have an issue with people who purport to teach cqb to civilians. It's not that they don't "need" to know it (though really, they don't. There are too many other things they should be trying learn, long before professional team level CQB comes into the picture). It's that they are not equipped for it, and usually the instructors who teach it have no real experience or REAL training to speak of.

I'm not going to go into all the details, but for those of us who have done and do do this for real, both in the U.S and abroad, there are reasons why we use things like Flash-bangs, helmets, rifle plates, etc. Also, this type of training, when done at the for real level (which I'm sorry to say, usually doesn't occur at local levels of law enforcement) comes after literally months of progressively more difficult and stressful firearms and tactics training. This is what DI1 was talking about in the other thread. There are plenty of civilians who are much better shooters than the best warriors we have in this country. Doesn't mean they're qualified to do this stuff safely.

Shooting skill is absolutely NOT fighting skill. Go pass a rigorous selection, where your attitude and decision making ability is tested way more than your physical attributes. Then go through 10 hours a day of firearms and tactics training and tons of PT, for months on end. Then you can go learn CQB. BTW, none of what I just laid out is found in any but a very few of the LE and military organizations in our country. Do cops need to know how to fight in buildings? Of course. Most just don't have the ability or opportunity to learn to do it correctly. Some of the biggest agencies in our country get by everyday because of luck. Luck that they aren't facing people who really want to kill them when they enter the room. When I was a cop, I went to a metric ton of training, both on and off the job. Got to do it for real a lot. I thought I knew everything about CQB. I was young and dumb. When I got to go through a real program, I realized just how poorly prepared I was previously.

Sorry, rant off. I'm just a little tired of some of the stuff I've been seeing and reading.

[BehindBlueI's]

Shooting skill is absolutely NOT fighting skill.

Worth repeating. Shooting is ONE FACET, and often confused with the whole ball of wax.

[Tamara]

How many qualified instructors are teaching open-enrollment, team-based CQB classes?

I'm not sure what I get out of "team-based" training with a team of people I'll never see again. Doing Pat Rogers' pistol shoot house class was illuminating for what I learned about moving around in a structure with one other person, with guns out and communicating, covering areas of responsibility, et cetera, but it would have had a million times the payoff for me in the real world if the person I'd been going through the house with was my roommate or Shootin' Buddy instead of someone whose back I'll never, ever need to cover in Real Life.

A class that would be very useful would be that sort of pistol shoot house class for husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, business partner, et cetera class... sort of a couples-focused AMIS ...but that's got to be a small market. Mr. & Mrs. GJM can't fill up a year's worth of student seats by themselves. ;)

[Dagga Boy]

I have found for LE, keeping things horribly simple on tactics pays off. As I used to tell my guys, when you do this 8 hours a day five days a week and training is what "going to work" is most of the time, then you can try to copy what the folks who do that do.

A good example is exactly what I posted on the picture. Two sided entries. Want to see things go bad...this is where they happen. It takes a ton of time to get two sided entries flawless (meaning,not screwing them up in training or in the field). I would rather have folks really good and proficient at the much simpler single side entry than mediocre on a two side with a ton of potential to screw up.

Training with some of the folks who are looked at as the best in the business in the LE world, I found that they were great at simple because even they knew they were not training like the top Military teams, and they were facing a different threat and far more accountability. I found it funny that some of the REALLY "A" game LE guys were not doing things like many of the small part time teams who have been heavily influenced by the military guys. This is a pet peeve of having guys from former tier 1 units building programs for folks who cannot meet the training time and equipment demands for what they are being taught. I fought this war inside my own place.
A great quote from an exchange I had with a member of the top NSW asset in the country..."your guys would get killed the way you do things in my world, and all of my guys would be in federal prison in your world". Summed it up perfectly. The key being...train for your reality and your world. If you are not, at least admit you are just trying to learn stuff you have no real use for. I have taken classes and done training with folks for stuff I will never need, and was more of a educational exercise and to just see how other folks do things than learning anything I could or would ever use.

[GAP]

Similar to competing in MMA, I see the bar swinging from skill/luck to raw determination the longer the fight goes on.

Of my combined MMA wins, a third I ended swiftly, a third I eventually won because I knew I was more skilled and made sure I didn't beat myself and another third I won by determination and just refusing to lose.

I say it all of the time. We have guys in the gym that are complete studs but when the lights are on them, a crowd is watching and the guy across from them is trying to hurt them, they crumble.

I truly believe life experiences mold certain individuals to be able to do it, and that you can't teach.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm not sure what I get out of "team-based" training with a team of people I'll never see again. Doing Pat Rogers' pistol shoot house class was illuminating for what I learned about moving around in a structure with one other person, with guns out and communicating, covering areas of responsibility, et cetera, but it would have had a million times the payoff for me in the real world if the person I'd been going through the house with was my roommate or Shootin' Buddy instead of someone whose back I'll never, ever need to cover in Real Life.

A class that would be very useful would be that sort of pistol shoot house class for husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, business partner, et cetera class... sort of a couples-focused AMIS ...but that's got to be a small market. Mr. & Mrs. GJM can't fill up a year's worth of student seats by themselves. ;)

And, I am sure Pat didn't let you loose with 20 strangers to run at speed unsupervised. That is the key, there is a lot to learn about problem solving in a well run structure class. The key is the goal needs to be to teach problem solving, and taking supervision and safety seriously.

[Trooper224]

My thinking is why do citizens think they need to spend a lot of time and money on CQB training? In my opinion, this stuff is popular with the entertrainment crowd because it feeds into their SHTF, Nutnfancy WROL, end of days fantasy. It's far more exciting and deluding than spending time on a square range mastering the fundemantals. In reality they should be focusing on scenarios that deal with being robbed at the Step-n-Fetchit, or when things go bump in the night. They should be training primarily on handgun scenarios instead of running around all DEVGRU-like with their LBV's and carbines. I used to do this stuff a lot and even then I saw some "high speed" manuvers that made my skin crawl. I've also participated in enough group sims training with my own agency, where I've seen some of the most charlie foxtrot type stuff imaginable that I'd almost prefer to respond to an active shooter by myself. I can only think of half a dozen troops I've known who would be on my "anywhere, anytime" list and some of those are retired. The rest would be better off waxing the cars when the face shooting starts. Unfortunately, shooting has become less of a discipline and more of a role playing game for far too many people, and there are too many entertrainers ala James Yeager and Cory Jackson who are eager to take their money.

[Tamara]

And, I am sure Pat didn't let you loose with 20 strangers to run at speed unsupervised.

The exact opposite: Since we had an odd number of students, the person who was sitting in the back corner of the class when we counted off on TD1 wound up with Doc Spears as her partner.

Highly recommend having a clueful AI as your partner. Two thumbs up. Would run again. :D

[Chance]

It's not that they don't "need" to know it (though really, they don't. There are too many other things they should be trying learn, long before professional team level CQB comes into the picture).

That dovetails into the original post: people want whiz-bang fun stuff, because the grind of pragmatic skill development is boring.


Shoot houses do not pose difficult shooting problems, but done correctly they are heavy in problem solving while shooting, which is a very good thing.

Can that same sort of problem solving be recreated out of a QCB environment?


A class that would be very useful would be that sort of pistol shoot house class for husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, business partner, et cetera class... sort of a couples-focused AMIS ...but that's got to be a small market. Mr. & Mrs. GJM can't fill up a year's worth of student seats by themselves. ;)

That could be interesting, although it might not be as complicated as clearing a house. Just having an environment where my SO and I could setup our present home defense plan, and then have a knowledgeable instructor pressure test, would be great.


I have found for LE, keeping things horribly simple on tactics pays off.

That's one of the things that I really liked about Paul Howe's classes. He doesn't focus on trying to squeeze out performance in every possible permutation of circumstances. He focuses on what's going to work for most people, under most circumstances, most of the time.



The key being...train for your reality and your world. If you are not, at least admit you are just trying to learn stuff you have no real use for.

I am working on a PhD.... :rolleyes:

But seriously, that also goes back to the theme of the thread. The trick is recognizing what's worthless before you've invested time and money into it. I think having an experienced mentor is the only way to avoid that aspect of the learning curve.

[Wondering Beard]

Shoot houses do not pose difficult shooting problems, but done correctly they are heavy in problem solving while shooting, which is a very good thing.

This is important.

The only possible interest I could have in CQB type techniques is about problem solving: learning angles, movement, IDing shoots vs no shoots, a different understanding of concealment, reduced lighting and so on are not only good for straight forward home defense but make you look at the world outside the home with new eyes and new understanding.

As to doing what was shown in the Yeager video, even if I was interested in doing the fantasy shoot camp, that's just silly stuff (never mind dangerous).

[Luke]

This is important.

The only possible interest I could have in CQB type techniques is about problem solving: learning angles, movement, IDing shoots vs no shoots, a different understanding of concealment, reduced lighting and so on are not only good for straight forward home defense but make you look at the world outside the home with new eyes and new understanding.


As to doing what was shown in the Yeager video, even if I was interested in doing the fantasy shoot camp, that's just silly stuff (never mind dangerous).


I took a class last year that was a "home defense" class. It was about clearing your house by yourself and ID'ing threats and no shoots(here a smash in the middle of the night and have to go looking) It was in a simunition house that was very very cool. Class was really cool. There was no magic ninja crap.

[TR675]

A class that would be very useful would be that sort of pistol shoot house class for husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, business partner, et cetera class... sort of a couples-focused AMIS ...but that's got to be a small market. Mr. & Mrs. GJM can't fill up a year's worth of student seats by themselves. ;)

Thunder Ranch does (or did) this IIRC.

[JAD]

Home and Vehicle Defense, which I never got to. I did take their Team Tactics course. While me and the buddy I took it with have about zero chance of needing to fight together, I learned a lot about muzzle direction in complex applications and communication. That's good stuff -- it forces the shooting to a more automatic state while trying to simultaneously be safe, communicate, and solve problems.

[Trooper224]

Home and Vehicle Defense, which I never got to. I did take their Team Tactics course. While me and the buddy I took it with have about zero chance of needing to fight together, I learned a lot about muzzle direction in complex applications and communication. That's good stuff -- it forces the shooting to a more automatic state while trying to simultaneously be safe, communicate, and solve problems.

You've hit upon something that's pretty important in the big picture. It's hard to focus on those things if you haven't at least become proficient in the fundamentals of shooting. If you aren't to the point where things like sight alignment, trigger squeeze, clearing malfunctions, etc., can be done on autopilot, you're not going to have a great outcome once you throw in those aspects that require higher problem solving analysis. I see this all the time in training with cops who are from the, "only shoot during qualification" school, or gadget freaks who spend more time buying the latest widget rather than working what they've already got.

[JAD]

You've hit upon something that's pretty important in the big picture. It's hard to focus on those things if you haven't at least become proficient in the fundamentals of shooting.
Too true. At the time I was going to gun school once or twice a year, shooting in a lot of matches, and buying 10-20k primers a year. These days I'm not sure I'd get nearly as much out of the class.

[LSP552]

I took a class last year that was a "home defense" class. It was about clearing your house by yourself and ID'ing threats and no shoots(here a smash in the middle of the night and have to go looking) It was in a simunition house that was very very cool. Class was really cool. There was no magic ninja crap.

I cringe every time I see a clearing your house alone class. Yes, there is benefit in learning about angles and interior movement, and good force on force is mandatory for learning how to fight. The issue comes in if students don't clearly understand that there is No way to safely clear a house alone. It's really a team sport. Training of this nature, IMO, must make this clear to not encourage people to do stuff they shouldn't do.

The ONLY exception to this is if you have to move to consolidate children or family members. The need to secure family justifies the risk of moving. Other than this, if you really think someone is in the house, I strongly recommend laying in ambush until the police arrive.

Many years ago, when I was at the peak of my physical and shooting ability, multiple folks tried to break into my house while my wife and I were home. We had no children so it's just us in the house. There were 3 vehicles (including a pretty obvious unmarked police car) in the driveway so they clearly knew someone was home. About 3 AM I woke to someone kicking the back door in my den, heard a 2nd kick and then saw a flashlight beam roaming around on a den wall. There is a long hallway from the master bedroom and you can see a portion of the den wall. I wake the wife up, she takes a covered position in the bedroom and I call 911. I'm holding cover on the hall and bedroom door with a P226 with night sights, and had earlier finished helping LSP972 run a dim light training qualification. After class, we instructors stayed and shot, so I had a dim light tune up that evening.

The flashlight goes out, and then reappears in a dog leg bend in my hall, and I hear conversation but can't make out what they were saying. I'm thinking a couple more steps and I will be able to see a target. My plan is simple; shoot everyone in the house without warning.

The flashlight beam in the hall goes out and I'm thinking they turned if of to advance into the bedroom. Nothing happens and a minute later I hear the first police car motor humming. I pick up another bit of garbled conversation then nothing. Police arrive and are directed to the enter at a sliding patio door opening into the master bedroom, making sure they know who and what I am. Two city cops arrive and the 3 of us clear the house, no one inside.

The turds had been kicking my den door (footprints clearly there), which held and then they were shining their light from the door window into the den, which is what I saw on the wall and stereo cabinet. They moved to a bedroom window and tried to pry it open, doing a small bit of damage to the frame. They flashlight beam visible in the hall dog leg was shining through the window they were trying to try open. It appeared they were inside the hose when I first woke, but never actually were. They beat feet when they heard the police cars coming.

Pretty bold knowing the home owners were home, and didn't care. When their first attempts at kicking the door didn't work, they didn't leave. Instead they opted for the less noisy option of trying to pry a window. They stopped trying only when they heard the police coming. There were at least 2, and they were pretty dang bold. They were also pretty lucky.

My point in telling this story is to say that there is no way, under those circumstances, that I would have given up a perfect ambush point to confront burglars elsewhere in the house alone.

There may be times you want to walk through/check the house when you don't think anyone is realy there. I understand that, and have done so myself. That's a different animal than doing so when you think someone may be inside.

A good dog is worth their weight in gold for home defense!

[Beat Trash]

Excellent post LSP.

There are times as a homeowner that you would be forced to take risks and leave a position of cover. But it should be limited to going to children and other family members and bringing them to a position of relative safety.

I've done more than a few building searches over the years. It can't be done safely with just one person. Even two is stretching it. Two to search a room and a third to cover the rear to ensure no one comes up form behind.

Your story hits on a lot of subtile things that are important for home security. Solid locks on exterior doors and windows. A flashlight in the bed room. Maybe a second light incase your batteries are dead.
Ensuring your cell phone or land line is available in the bed room.

And a good dog is worth their weight in gold. But then as the commander of my agencies canine unit, I may be biased...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As an exercise at KRtraining, Karl had a single defender in the bedroom who hears a break in. The participants were those with some training vs. some beginners. The beginners heard the break in and went to clear. To a person, they came to an evil end. Those who stayed put and defended the bedroom from a reasonable position, made it through the exercise.

The purpose for the naive run was to show what happens to those who had said that they would clear the house as no one was stealing their stuff!!

As a humorous aside, I had replacement value insurance on house contents. We had an old Mac LC that cost $3000 in it's time. My wife liked it for it's simplicity. My plan was to yell at the burglars to steal the Mac or I would kill you all!!!!

The cognitive ability to override emotional monkey territoriality needs to be trained. I have had friends who tell me how they 'cleared' the house when hearing a noise. They racked the shotgun also to scare the burglars.

[Luke]

LSP, multiple times we were told this is the worst case scenario and it takes multiple people to do it properly with TONS of raining. This class was for people like me, just a civilian with a gun that had kids in other parts of the house. My daughters room is the first room closest to the back door. If it gets kicked in I will not be taking cover and waiting. That's all this was about. I was just trying to convey that not all the guys teaching this type of stuff is bad. Like I said, every few minutes we went over how this is absolute worst case scenario and this isn't to get you ready to clear a building LOOKING FOR A BAD GUY. This was simply a class of how to effectively move through your house to retrieve loved ones and get out. In the sims house the guys doing to best work were getting there "kid" and getting out of the house safely with no altercation. I should have never posted in this thread honestly. I skill I need to work on lol.

ETA: I would never take a secret squirrel class on how to clear buildings because I have no need. In this class we were clearing the house per se, we were learning different techniques taken from that and applying them to better are ability to get to our loved ones and get out. We were actively seeking our family and not the intruder if that makes sense. This trainer is very well squared aways and firmly anchored to reality and there was no special ninjaness going on.

[LSP552]

LSP, multiple times we were told this is the worst case scenario and it takes multiple people to do it properly with TONS of raining. This class was for people like me, just a civilian with a gun that had kids in other parts of the house. My daughters room is the first room closest to the back door. If it gets kicked in I will not be taking cover and waiting. That's all this was about. I was just trying to convey that not all the guys teaching this type of stuff is bad. Like I said, every few minutes we went over how this is absolute worst case scenario and this isn't to get you ready to clear a building LOOKING FOR A BAD GUY. This was simply a class of how to effectively move through your house to retrieve loved ones and get out. In the sims house the guys doing to best work were getting there "kid" and getting out of the house safely with no altercation. I should have never posted in this thread honestly. I skill I need to work on lol.

Sounds like the course emphasized the correct stuff and would be valuable training. Please don't ever NOT post a good data point!

[OnionsAndDragons]

Similar to competing in MMA, I see the bar swinging from skill/luck to raw determination the longer the fight goes on.

Of my combined MMA wins, a third I ended swiftly, a third I eventually won because I knew I was more skilled and made sure I didn't beat myself and another third I won by determination and just refusing to lose.

I say it all of the time. We have guys in the gym that are complete studs but when the lights are on them, a crowd is watching and the guy across from them is trying to hurt them, they crumble.

I truly believe life experiences mold certain individuals to be able to do it, and that you can't teach.

I just wanted to point this one out for added emphasis. Having real fight in you, the WILL to fight, win and live or secure the lives of others cannot be overstated.

[rob_s]

There is a tendency, in the civilian training world (of which LE are a part), wherein the inclination is to "ratchet up" training. The more classes you take, the more forums you're on, the more you're around this stuff, the more you're exposed to and the more the path seems clear. This is how you wind up with husbands and wives taking team tactics classes from motorcycle mechanics, among other things.

When 100% of your training is agency dictated, there is likely to be more of a "you need this training, go get this training" attitude (of course, shoe is making that decision and what training they are sending people to can easily be flawed).

In the case of the shooter who is paying out of pocket for his own training, regardless of what his full time job is, this isn't always his fault. We are conditioned to start with the level one class, then take level two, then take advanced.... So if the same instructor suggests that his "advanced" class should follow level two, and his "shoot house" or "street fighter" course should follow the advanced, the student is easily sucked in.

Does it really matter? Not a bit. Does it give people a way to feel superior when then choose a different path? Clearly, look at this thread and others. Is anyone likely to ever actually get hurt, either at the course itself or through the misapplication of what they learned, or bad instruction? Probably not. Should they probably be more concerned with what they had for lunch and their choice to spend their evenings sitting in front of the tv? Absolutely.

Shooting is not fighting, that is true. But for most folks frankly the level of shooting one can achieve by attending almost any multi-day level one course, or by simply showing up semi-regular,y for IDPA or USPSA is more than sufficient. But for people that want to take more classes, and who have bought into all the paranoid SHTFantasy crap on forums, blogs, podcasts, and now even the radio, not too mention watch too much news on tv and extrapolate events to make them appear to affect their own life, moving "up" to the cqb/gunfighter/street/knife-fighting ninja classes is about the only choice that's left to them.

[SLG]

I think people should take whatever classes they like. A Streetfighter class probably makes more sense for civilians than a cqb class, but i'm probably splitting hairs. The issue is, real cqb is inherently dangerous, as is the training. Not inherently dangerous like all firearms related activities, actually, really dangerous. Good instructors mitigate that danger very effectively, but the students play a large role in that as well. In an open enrollment class, with an instructor of dubious experience, thats not an equation for success, in my mind. Ymmv.

[KevinB]

I'd run (not walk) from anyone purporting to teach an Open Enrollment CQB Class.

LE/MIL/GOV Classes have prerequisites, and any 3rd party classes I know of that have any credibility have got training gates both in prior classes and creds, as well as arrival tests on TD1 of the class -- fail and you or your entity looses the $.

[Robinson]

There are some really great posts in this thread. I can't for the life of me think of a single reason I would want to take a CQB class as a civilian, and it would probably be pretty frightening. I would be afraid that I would make a mistake and hurt someone as much as fearing I would be shot by someone else.

In the case of a home invasion I do have family members I would want to protect/move to safety. I may also explore the house armed in case of a simple "bump in the night" or the alarm sounding (depending). But the idea of aggressively moving to engage an intruder without a good reason? No.

[Chance]

So if the same instructor suggests that his "advanced" class should follow level two, and his "shoot house" or "street fighter" course should follow the advanced, the student is easily sucked in.

That's definitely an aspect of it. However, I can say that it's kind of awkward finding an advanced class in the fundamentals.

If you keep taking basic courses, you're usually in the boat with people who are just learning which end the bullet comes out. That takes the instructor's attention away from more experienced students, who are trying to smooth out the rough edges of their techniques, and find various hitches in their get-alongs. You can do a lot of honing yourself, via competition et cetera, but having a knowledgeable person critique you can save enormous amounts of time and effort on your part.

That's why I'm interested in training with guys like John McPhee, who do a detailed analysis (https://www.instagram.com/p/4SDnwrJcAL/)of shooting grip, or Craig, who is great at pressure testing the skills you think you have.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Alarm sounding - I'm calling the law (the alarm is supposed to do that also, but being on the phone helps). Gather those who need gathering and hunker down. I'm not taking a CQB class. My cardiologist has enough money.

[Peally]

There are some really great posts in this thread. I can't for the life of me think of a single reason I would want to take a CQB class as a civilian, and it would probably be pretty frightening. I would be afraid that I would make a mistake and hurt someone as much as fearing I would be shot by someone else.

In the case of a home invasion I do have family members I would want to protect/move to safety. I may also explore the house armed in case of a simple "bump in the night" or the alarm sounding (depending). But the idea of aggressively moving to engage an intruder without a good reason? No.

If you've got the money to spare and want to sample some flavors from different fighting worlds, why not I say. I think it's more on the "this is neat to know" side of the scale versus "this will help me in an encounter" but if I was ever offered a (safe, vetted, prerequisite required) slot in a CQB class I'd take it.

[Luke]

Not sure if it matters, but I'd like to clarify the class I took was with pistols and not rifles.. Don't know if that makes a difference.

[rob_s]

That's definitely an aspect of it. However, I can say that it's kind of awkward finding an advanced class in the fundamentals.

Maybe, but maybe this is also a clue. Maybe the issue isn't training or instruction, maybe it's practice or application. Why do you want/need to get better?

For many, classes are a shortcut around simply putting in the work. "I suck at shooting, but rather than spend one night a week at the range and 15 minutes every morning doing dryfire, I'm going to go take a class and get the instructor tell give me a magic solution to the one problem I have that is keeping me from being a better shooter". The thing is, how does the guy know how good or bad he is? How does he know if maybe he's actually "good enough" already?

This is the genius of the "tactical" training world, no metrics! and, "good enough, isn't!" No instructor makes money if you take his L01 and L02 and then go shoot IDPA for the rest of your life and are content to "stall" at Marksman or Expert, or USPSA and "stall" at B or A class. But, that's frankly probably all you "need". But he's not here for your "needs", he's here to continue to fund his endless summer, so he needs you (a) showing up to new and better and MOAR classes, and he needs you to get on the internet and cajole all your buddies into joining the cult. If you read Freakonomics they explain how, for example, a realtor's needs and the needs of the homeowner are different and therefore so are their motivations and goals. Same thing here.

To bring this full circle to the original topic of gear discussions distracting from training discussions, (a) who cares if it does, (b) is it actually hurting, or causing to come to harm, anyone, (c) do people really think discussing gear is taking away from discussing methods (in lieu of "tactics"), and (d) isn't anyone allowed to simply enjoy all of this, a part of which absolutely is the gadgets and gizmos? Or are well so busy stocking our car trucks with rifles and M4s so we can intervene in a mall shooting, with taking all sorts of roll-on-the-ground courses so we know how to knife fight our way out of the Jamba Juice, with proving how much MOAR Ninja we are than the guys that do shit we don't do, and just generally getting distracted and losing sight of the fact that this is all, first and foremost, a BUSINESS?

I got into shooting because I like guns. All this other horseshit really was, and continues to be, an excuse to play with guns at best and a distraction from the original goal at worst.

[KevinB]

Okay I usually ignore Rob - but I felt I should respond to this.


Maybe, but maybe this is also a clue. Maybe the issue isn't training or instruction, maybe it's practice or application. Why do you want/need to get better?

For many, classes are a shortcut around simply putting in the work. "I suck at shooting, but rather than spend one night a week at the range and 15 minutes every morning doing dryfire, I'm going to go take a class and get the instructor tell give me a magic solution to the one problem I have that is keeping me from being a better shooter". The thing is, how does the guy know how good or bad he is? How does he know if maybe he's actually "good enough" already?


One simply cannot watch a video and do dry fire and get better

Practice does not make perfect --- perfect practice does.

Perhaps the better question is what type of instruction, and from who. To me one needs to put in work, not just in classes, but also out of classes, view it as homework - where a class can be a test to see if your doing your homework correctly.
How you judge your requirements will determine what sort of returns you want and need,if any.





This is the genius of the "tactical" training world, no metrics! and, "good enough, isn't!" No instructor makes money if you take his L01 and L02 and then go shoot IDPA for the rest of your life and are content to "stall" at Marksman or Expert, or USPSA and "stall" at B or A class. But, that's frankly probably all you "need". But he's not here for your "needs", he's here to continue to fund his endless summer, so he needs you (a) showing up to new and better and MOAR classes, and he needs you to get on the internet and cajole all your buddies into joining the cult. If you read Freakonomics they explain how, for example, a realtor's needs and the needs of the homeowner are different and therefore so are their motivations and goals. Same thing here.

It all depends on what you as the individual want - no surprise that instructors are in the business of making money -- hint you do your job to make money too.
Unlike the realtor, the student has a choice of instructors, or to get instruction period.

No one is forcing folks to go to classes.

I do believe that many instructors despite it being their livelihood, are very passionate about their teachings (be they right, wrong or indifferent).





To bring this full circle to the original topic of gear discussions distracting from training discussions, (a) who cares if it does, (b) is it actually hurting, or causing to come to harm, anyone, (c) do people really think discussing gear is taking away from discussing methods (in lieu of "tactics"), and (d) isn't anyone allowed to simply enjoy all of this, a part of which absolutely is the gadgets and gizmos? Or are well so busy stocking our car trucks with rifles and M4s so we can intervene in a mall shooting, with taking all sorts of roll-on-the-ground courses so we know how to knife fight our way out of the Jamba Juice, with proving how much MOAR Ninja we are than the guys that do shit we don't do, and just generally getting distracted and losing sight of the fact that this is all, first and foremost, a BUSINESS?

I have no idea of your point anymore Rob - you offered way to many distractions in your choices above.
I think your suggesting the topic wandered into a different area, and not sure if you meant that was a good or bad thing, or ...



I got into shooting because I like guns. All this other horseshit really was, and continues to be, an excuse to play with guns at best and a distraction from the original goal at worst.

To you the above is relevant -- however it may or may not to others. Some may have gotten into shooting for different reasons, I know a lot of folks who shoot, who have a casual disdain for guns viewing them simply as a tool for a job.

[Dagga Boy]

A pet peeve of Scotty Reitz kind of dovetails in on this....why do you have to take the "next class"? What is wrong with taking a basic or a 1 or 2 again. There is some gold in there. When you go through some of these classes again, or a great instructors basic class, you can really pick up some little nuances, nuggets and different things than when you took it the first time.....where it was likely that you were drinking from a firehouse. Now you can sip from that same hose, and really taste it. I have gotten some great things taking very good people's basic courses. Also, they are a good place to do things like try a different type of gun, or even shoot the whole thing support hand only. Is it terrible to hear a great instructors take on safety or proper grip or trigger press again? I still get a lot out of teaching our basic courses just hearing my partner Wayne discuss trigger press and trigger control and grip.

Also, there is not a single thing wrong with learning how to do CQB and how to work in a building. Nothing wrong with learning to work with others in a structure. The issue is when you are learning it in your training path, and how you are learning it.
A guy I used to work with spent a ton of money taking a Magpul Carbine class. Guy lives in California and works there and does not own a Carbine without a bullet button. Cannot carry a carbine at work. Is not a great pistol shooter, but carries one daily working EP/and security. I highly recommended some quality pistol instruction and even EP oriented stuff. Nope....Magpul. It had to be with Costa and Haley. I at least got him to admit that the fact was....he just really wanted to take a class with them and do what they do in the video's. That is great, and the key is if you do this stuff, admit it is because it is "neat" not "need", and at least go somewhere where you have a good chance of not being on a video getting hurt by another student (or instructor).

[rob_s]

Okay I usually ignore Rob - but I felt I should respond to this.
oh, yay!


I have no idea of your point anymore Rob - you offered way to many distractions in your choices above.
then you should probably go back to ignoring me.

The point is, to dumb it down, that the vast majority of people involved in this industry are full, to varying degrees, of shit. How much shit varies, as does the flavor. and that goes to "professional" users as much as the hobbyist/civilian/fun shooter.

It becomes like the frigging Moonies, with people buying further and further into the cult of BS the longer they stay exposed to it, and the more engrossed they become the faster they buy in. That goes for the suburban accountant who thinks he's going to stop a mall shooting with his M4 and plate carrier because he's got the coolest plate carrier and M4 on the internet and has gone to all the "high speed classes" as well as the street cop in a town of 100 people.

it's like the emperor's new clothes in multicam.

Yes, I get that there are some very serious dudes that need firearms for very serious shit, and that many of them probably view the firearm as nothing more than a tool to get the job done. Fine. But (a) that guy isn't in the three-day open enrollment class at the local range and (b) he's not on the internet discussing all of it and (c) if he retires, quits, or moves on to another job he's not that same guy with that same need anymore. The exception does not make the rule.

[rob_s]

I know it will hurt your feeling, but I agree with this whole post.


A pet peeve of Scotty Reitz kind of dovetails in on this....why do you have to take the "next class"? What is wrong with taking a basic or a 1 or 2 again. There is some gold in there. When you go through some of these classes again, or a great instructors basic class, you can really pick up some little nuances, nuggets and different things than when you took it the first time.....where it was likely that you were drinking from a firehouse. Now you can sip from that same hose, and really taste it. I have gotten some great things taking very good people's basic courses. Also, they are a good place to do things like try a different type of gun, or even shoot the whole thing support hand only. Is it terrible to hear a great instructors take on safety or proper grip or trigger press again? I still get a lot out of teaching our basic courses just hearing my partner Wayne discuss trigger press and trigger control and grip.

There is a reason so many people re-take Randy Cain's Tactical Handgun 101 course, or his Intermediate Handgun (101 without the training wheels) course. There is so much nuanced information there that one can continue learning at the same course. And some people just like to have a refresher.


Also, there is not a single thing wrong with learning how to do CQB and how to work in a building. Nothing wrong with learning to work with others in a structure. The issue is when you are learning it in your training path, and how you are learning it.
A guy I used to work with spent a ton of money taking a Magpul Carbine class. Guy lives in California and works there and does not own a Carbine without a bullet button. Cannot carry a carbine at work. Is not a great pistol shooter, but carries one daily working EP/and security. I highly recommended some quality pistol instruction and even EP oriented stuff. Nope....Magpul. It had to be with Costa and Haley. I at least got him to admit that the fact was....he just really wanted to take a class with them and do what they do in the video's. That is great, and the key is if you do this stuff, admit it is because it is "neat" not "need", and at least go somewhere where you have a good chance of not being on a video getting hurt by another student (or instructor).

Exactly. I think we all know "that guy", regardless of what he does for a living. I take no issue with them, provided they are simply honest with why they are there. Think it's fun and cool? Awesome!

[KevinB]

oh, yay!


then you should probably go back to ignoring me.

The point is, to dumb it down, that the vast majority of people involved in this industry are full, to varying degrees, of shit. How much shit varies, as does the flavor. and that goes to "professional" users as much as the hobbyist/civilian/fun shooter.

It becomes like the frigging Moonies, with people buying further and further into the cult of BS the longer they stay exposed to it, and the more engrossed they become the faster they buy in. That goes for the suburban accountant who thinks he's going to stop a mall shooting with his M4 and plate carrier because he's got the coolest plate carrier and M4 on the internet and has gone to all the "high speed classes" as well as the street cop in a town of 100 people.

it's like the emperor's new clothes in multicam.

Yes, I get that there are some very serious dudes that need firearms for very serious shit, and that many of them probably view the firearm as nothing more than a tool to get the job done. Fine. But (a) that guy isn't in the three-day open enrollment class at the local range and (b) he's not on the internet discussing all of it and (c) if he retires, quits, or moves on to another job he's not that same guy with that same need anymore. The exception does not make the rule.


Ironically I agree with this post of yours almost 100% in its full entirety Rob.

However I would say that on this forum, most also agree.

DB's post above pretty much nailed my belief's on training.



To get back to the Original Post.
I'm a gearqueer, I love gear, and new gear specifically-- mainly as I will find an excuse to make more time to play with it then.
- new holster, great - time for more draws, and range time to hone it.
- new light for my pistol, maybe a new holster, and more range time, and some structure work once the wife and kids are in bed (though the dog's think its great and love to rush to where I point the lights - so often best to lock them in a bedroom first).

As long a gear gets used and trained with -- I am fully supporting getting more -- I'm a hoarder FWIW.
However buying stuff that sit's untested and unused, that is not good, even worse if it's gotten "in case" - as you won't know either where it is, or how to use it.

Dude wants to buy a new trigger, great IF it will get him out shooting.

The more folks out shooting helps us as a community - and that, also my selfish desire to remain working in the Industry, is why I love folks buying gear - preferably guns, and ideally from FN ;)

[Alembic]

[QUOTE=rob_s it's also probably not worth the time invested,

I'd imagine most of the people on this site would like to retain their 2nd amendment rights.

Anytime a newbe asks you for advice you have the opportunity to help preserve that right.

I'd propose the elitest attitude expressed by most of you Edit( in this thread) is not helping the 'gun' community.

[David S.]

I'd imagine most of the people on this site would like to retain their 2nd amendment rights.

Anytime a newbe asks you for advice you have the opportunity to help preserve that right.

I'd propose the elitest attitude expressed by most of you is not helping the 'gun' community.

I bet any of us elitist so would be happy to offer help to those who honestly inquire. Most have given up on offering unsolicited advise.

[Alembic]

I did not say you should offer unsolicied advice.

However, if solicited, why not be a nice guy? Who cares if they ignore you. 5 minutes of your time could help someone, maybe the guy in the next lane who is unwilling to ask, but might be a good listener. Think butterfly effect, and do good. Help your fellow man, or be selfish and try to gain a vote... I think you get my point.

[Luke]

I'd bet that no one who posted here would not give them 5 minutes of there time. I'm one of the "elitists" and still give them time. I will also run away before they see me. Big difference.

[SecondsCount]

...

The point is, to dumb it down, that the vast majority of people involved in this industry are full, to varying degrees, of shit. How much shit varies, as does the flavor. and that goes to "professional" users as much as the hobbyist/civilian/fun shooter.

It becomes like the frigging Moonies, with people buying further and further into the cult of BS the longer they stay exposed to it, and the more engrossed they become the faster they buy in. That goes for the suburban accountant who thinks he's going to stop a mall shooting with his M4 and plate carrier because he's got the coolest plate carrier and M4 on the internet and has gone to all the "high speed classes" as well as the street cop in a town of 100 people.

it's like the emperor's new clothes in multicam.

Yes, I get that there are some very serious dudes that need firearms for very serious shit, and that many of them probably view the firearm as nothing more than a tool to get the job done. Fine. But (a) that guy isn't in the three-day open enrollment class at the local range and (b) he's not on the internet discussing all of it and (c) if he retires, quits, or moves on to another job he's not that same guy with that same need anymore. The exception does not make the rule.

Excellent! Now if you could just figure out a way to keep from coming across as a dick sometimes. :cool:

[Dagga Boy]

I'd bet that no one who posted here would not give them 5 minutes of there time. I'm one of the "elitists" and still give them time. I will also run away before they see me. Big difference.

I have no problem giving time...I refuse to now waste time. I had way too many folks give me time on my path that I would be selfish to not return that. On the other hand, I have grown a lot because of listening to those more experienced and farther along on the path. S
Many folks refuse to grow, and think that they are already there because of "gun X" in "Serpa like the Marines" or "Fobus like the Israeli's" and as I sat throughout the other day at a shop listening to the Serpa guy behind the counter who was telling newer shooter that you use instinctive shooting, because can hit a light switch with at 10 yards and paper plates at 25 from the hip and nobody can use sights in a fight.......:mad: Sometimes, it is not worth wasting my time.

[orionz06]

I did not say you should offer unsolicied advice.

However, if solicited, why not be a nice guy? Who cares if they ignore you. 5 minutes of your time could help someone, maybe the guy in the next lane who is unwilling to ask, but might be a good listener. Think butterfly effect, and do good. Help your fellow man, or be selfish and try to gain a vote... I think you get my point.

Unsolicited advice was what got me rolling in the direction I went when I bought an AR15 because they seemed cool as hell and I wanted one that was tricked out. I've since pushed a few others with unsolicited advice and they've become training junkies and competent shooters.

[JSGlock34]

I think people should take whatever classes they like. A Streetfighter class probably makes more sense for civilians than a cqb class, but i'm probably splitting hairs. The issue is, real cqb is inherently dangerous, as is the training. Not inherently dangerous like all firearms related activities, actually, really dangerous. Good instructors mitigate that danger very effectively, but the students play a large role in that as well. In an open enrollment class, with an instructor of dubious experience, thats not an equation for success, in my mind. Ymmv.

In case anyone needs a reminder that the danger isn't theoretical...

Negligent discharge during a class (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5918-Negligent-discharge-during-a-class)

[rob_s]

[QUOTE=rob_s it's also probably not worth the time invested,

I'd imagine most of the people on this site would like to retain their 2nd amendment rights.

Anytime a newbe asks you for advice you have the opportunity to help preserve that right.

I'd propose the elitest attitude expressed by most of you Edit( in this thread) is not helping the 'gun' community.

Two different things.

My point is that trying to regale someone with all of your firearms and training knowledge in order to make yourself look more important is rather pointless.

I thought I already posted it here, but my reaction when someone approaches me ans says "hey, I'm thinking of buying an XYZ, what do you think?" is "fuck yeah dude, that's exactly what you should get! Let me know when it comes in and we'll hit the range!"

What I'm advocating against, and which happens all the time with people that have just progressed beyond the beginning stages and who think they know everything/a lot/more than the average guy is that they find this to be a great opportunity to show how much they know, and launch into all the reasons the other person shouldn't buy that POS, and why they should go out and sink $1k+ in training, and blah blah blah blah blah ad nauseum. (A) it's not really about offering advice it's about making the advisor feel good and (B) it's more likely to scare off the advisee than it is to convert them to a foamin-at-the-mouth-republican-gun-rights-advocate.

The most important thing, in all things, is to buy the gun. Unless the guy is telling you he is going to buy a Raven or a Jennings, you should just let him buy what he wants and see if you can get him out to the range or to a match. Anything else is a waste of time at best and all about your own ego at worst.

[ST911]

I think people should take whatever classes they like. A Streetfighter class probably makes more sense for civilians than a cqb class, but i'm probably splitting hairs. The issue is, real cqb is inherently dangerous, as is the training. Not inherently dangerous like all firearms related activities, actually, really dangerous. Good instructors mitigate that danger very effectively, but the students play a large role in that as well. In an open enrollment class, with an instructor of dubious experience, thats not an equation for success, in my mind. Ymmv.


I'd run (not walk) from anyone purporting to teach an Open Enrollment CQB Class.


Also, there is not a single thing wrong with learning how to do CQB and how to work in a building. Nothing wrong with learning to work with others in a structure. The issue is when you are learning it in your training path, and how you are learning it.

Gents- For purposes of discussion of the above, what skill and task sets are you defining with that label?

If students sought some of those CQB skills, which of them in your opinion can be done simply and safely enough for an open enrollment environment? Which are beyond OE?

[GRV]

Gents- For purposes of discussion of the above, what skill and task sets are you defining with that label?

If students sought some of those CQB skills, which of them in your opinion can be done simply and safely enough for an open enrollment environment? Which are beyond OE?

Not an expert, but for anyone really itching to go down this road that has been repeatedly advised against, I'd say go find a sims CQB class. The usual sims safety issues apply (pat downs, etc.), but otherwise you have a safe way to learn these skills, with minimal penalty for messing up, and you get the benefit of being able to run scenarios that involve shooting at real people.

I don't know whether or not this is the case, but I'd be pretty damn surprised to hear that Ninja Force 5 learns CQB by immediately jumping into a livefire shoothouse instead of learning with sims first, and maybe even blue guns before that.

[SLG]

In case anyone needs a reminder that the danger isn't theoretical...

Negligent discharge during a class (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5918-Negligent-discharge-during-a-class)

That is a great example of macro errors resulting in injury.

During cqb training, there are tons of micro errors that can hurt you as well, and it is a rare (as in nonexistant) unit that hasnt seriously injured or killed one of its own because of the micro errors.

Im not trying to scare anyone, or say that civilians are not able to learn this stuff. All i am saying is that civilians will never have access to a really proper training program that is. Ot only run correctly, but that all the other people in themclass meet the standard. Rhetorical question. How many of you can take a month off from work and family to go get propperly trained, along with another 4-19 students?

A sims class would certainly be the way to go. You could learn the fundamentals in a few days, and be relatively risk free. No one teaches that class, afaik.

[Wondering Beard]

Just so we're all clear on what we are talking about: what is meant here by CQB?

The acronym stands for Close Quarters Battle but that may be a little vague as we could consider much of what is taught in a lot of classes to be CQB. So, are we talking about a single or pair of individuals learning to slowly clear a structure or part of one or dynamic entry by a team, or ...?

Getting our definitions right would help us understand what is or isn't appropriate for which level of training.

[Dagga Boy]

Gents- For purposes of discussion of the above, what skill and task sets are you defining with that label?

If students sought some of those CQB skills, which of them in your opinion can be done simply and safely enough for an open enrollment environment? Which are beyond OE?

Mostly problem solving in a structure. Use of lights for search and threat ID, use of angles and cover, movement, gun handling in confined environment, threat ID, shoot no/shoot, and the list goes on. Much of this can be done (and should be) with blue guns and SIMs, other stuff gets to a point of confirming skills with live fire with actual recoil, and marksmanship skills.

A few places have popped up here in Dallas doing SIMs type stuff on an open enrollment basis. Some are taught by former mil folks...don't know what they do or if it is really applicable to most. Others do it, and have no idea what the staff qualifications are, but I am glad to see this being done (right or wrong) with less chance of injury.

Also....Wayne and I will be doing a pistol shoot house course in June. I am very confident in the instructor and the staff and their protocals.

[Gray222]

Mostly problem solving in a structure. Use of lights for search and threat ID, use of angles and cover, movement, gun handling in confined environment, threat ID, shoot no/shoot, and the list goes on. Much of this can be done (and should be) with blue guns and SIMs, other stuff gets to a point of confirming skills with live fire with actual recoil, and marksmanship skills.

A few places have popped up here in Dallas doing SIMs type stuff on an open enrollment basis. Some are taught by former mil folks...don't know what they do or if it is really applicable to most. Others do it, and have no idea what the staff qualifications are, but I am glad to see this being done (right or wrong) with less chance of injury.

Also....Wayne and I will be doing a pistol shoot house course in June. I am very confident in the instructor and the staff and their protocals.

Did someone say shoot house?

Sort of want.

[nalesq]

I thought I already posted it here, but my reaction when someone approaches me ans says "hey, I'm thinking of buying an XYZ, what do you think?" is "fuck yeah dude, that's exactly what you should get! ... The most important thing, in all things, is to buy the gun. Unless the guy is telling you he is going to buy a Raven or a Jennings, you should just let him buy what he wants and see if you can get him out to the range or to a match. Anything else is a waste of time at best and all about your own ego at worst.

Also, people learn better the hard way. Sooner or later, the friends/acquaintances who start out with Tauruses and such find out on their own that there is better - if they keep shooting and training a lot with the goal of improving their abilities. Or they don't find out because they don't shoot or train a lot, in which case it didn't really matter anyway.

[LSP972]

Also, people learn better the hard way. Sooner or later, the friends/acquaintances who start out with Tauruses and such find out on their own that there is better - if they keep shooting and training a lot with the goal of improving their abilities. Or they don't find out because they don't shoot or train a lot, in which case it didn't really matter anyway.

Well stated. It is REALLY annoying to take the time to advise someone, going into detail, and then have them turn around and buy some POS because their brother-in-law or whoever said it was "just as good, but cheaper". Which is why I am DAMN choosy about who I invest that advisement time with, these days.

BTW, sir… the proper plural of Taurus is… Tauri.;)

.

[Dagga Boy]

Did someone say shoot house?

Sort of want.

Pat Rogers has been a serious mentor to both Wayne and I, and we figured his last shoot house class is something we should do.

[JAD]

I have always thought of sims (not air soft but real-gun markers) as crazy dangerous. From my purely open enrollment perspective the odds of a mistake just seem too high for the benefit.

With that said, Hearne has gotten me completely geeked up about the value of sims.

On reputation (and some forum posts) alone I am very anxious to run sims under Mr. Douglas. EWO is a more proximate opportunity so I will start with that, but I am very anxious to get ECQC under my belt as soon as possible.

[JSGlock34]

Armed Movement in Structures is certainly on my list of classes I'd like to take.

AAR: Armed Movement In Structures (AMIS) June 4-5, 2011 Culpeper, VA (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1088-AAR-Armed-Movement-In-Structures-(AMIS)-June-4-5-2011-Culpeper-VA)

[HopetonBrown]

I have always thought of sims (not air soft but real-gun markers) as crazy dangerous. From my purely open enrollment perspective the odds of a mistake just seem too high for the benefit.

What's crazy dangerous with Sims?

[SLG]

Most sims programs are extremely lax about checking people for weapons and ensuring that proper safety protocols are in place. If that is all done correctly, which it onerous, no doubt, then sims are about as safe as good training can be.

eta... that assumes a force on force use of sims. If you are using it to replace live fire for open enrollment classes, then see the 4 safety rules.

[Dagga Boy]

What's crazy dangerous with Sims?

The idea that they are "safe" causes a ton of issues if you are not using tough safety protocols. I went to the factory instructor school to set up training programs with them and still had to make regular changes because people did stuff on a level of stupid you could not imagine.

[Chance]

Pat Rogers has been a serious mentor to both Wayne and I, and we figured his last shoot house class is something we should do.

Is Pat retiring? I had always wanted to train with him.

[HopetonBrown]

My only Sims experience is ECQC.

[Dave J]

Is Pat retiring? I had always wanted to train with him.

He recently announced on Facebook that he was stepping away from the shoot house, but would still be doing carbine courses.

ETA: Also, the Alliance OH shoot house classes will continue to run, but under the LMS banner, IIRC.

[Surf]

As mentioned, provided you stick to trained protocol and safety measures SIMUNTITION or similar FX marking round training is safe and is invaluable to force on force training. It is when you shortcut any of the safety stuff that bad things happen.

The pain penalties are an absolute key to the training itself. Often times organizations or training outfits use too much protective gear, ie. layers of clothing to pad themselves up. Invariably you will get some people who will treat the training as a game and take chances or use tactics that are not sound because it no longer hurts. We tend to use the base head, throat and groin and one standard clothing layer. Keeps you honest. Now if you have bad guy actors who do multiple evolutions it is not as bad to pad them up a bit provided they stick to the script and respond accordingly. Also they cannot just fall down and die from a shot to the arm.

[Luke]

I agree with keeping the clothing minimal. We weren't allowed to wear heavy clothing and had to take a sim round in the but at close range before we could do the sims. That way going in we all knew it was really gonna suck to take some rounds to the torso. I'm sure trying to avoid a real bulket it pretty serious, but the sims hurt bad enough that we were moving extra slow and careful. Couldn't imagine them out of a rifle. I've heard they are pretty serious inside 20 yards.

[ST911]

As mentioned, provided you stick to trained protocol and safety measures SIMUNTITION or similar FX marking round training is safe and is invaluable to force on force training. It is when you shortcut any of the safety stuff that bad things happen.

The pain penalties are an absolute key to the training itself. Often times organizations or training outfits use too much protective gear, ie. layers of clothing to pad themselves up. Invariably you will get some people who will treat the training as a game and take chances or use tactics that are not sound because it no longer hurts. We tend to use the base head, throat and groin and one standard clothing layer. Keeps you honest. Now if you have bad guy actors who do multiple evolutions it is not as bad to pad them up a bit provided they stick to the script and respond accordingly. Also they cannot just fall down and die from a shot to the arm.

So much this. Letting folks pad themselves like hockey players negates a lot of training benefit. With the exception of some hits to the hands or bursts from SMGs, I've never found sims to be "painful", but they do smart. Protect the head, neck, and groin but let the rest of the body burn.

It's not difficult to do safe sims/FoF, but it's so easy to screw it up.

[Tiffany Johnson]

Am I encouraging bad behavior by talking about trigger mods or which Glock Gen is better with people who would probably be better served investing that time and brain power into seeking out professional instruction?

Yes, IMHO. :-)

[JAD]

What's crazy dangerous with Sims?
Dipshits.

[HopetonBrown]

Dipshits.
Better not leave the house, then.

[BehindBlueI's]

So since the thread has drifted there anyway, let's talk about these classes. Out of curiosity, how many have role players that act like burglars and not like insurgents? How many are teaching based on most likely to least likely home invasion scenarios vs. kicking in doors in Iraq/SWAT dynamic entry? Watching SWAT work on my high risk search warrants vs debriefing the rare non-dope related home invasion victim indicates to me they are typically quite different.

Free home invasion repelling class:

1) Don't deal dope out of your house. This will prevent roughly 80% of home invasions.
2) Don't move into a house immediately after a dope dealer moves out, or move into an easily confused apartment number. About another 10% can be avoided.
3) If someone breaks into your home they will do one of three things.
They will burst in and try to control everyone immediately. No "house clearing" necessary, they are doing the "clearing".
They will begin stealing shit and will be preoccupied, which I will bet most of your roleplayers in these things are lying in ambush or some bullshit because training for the wrong scenario
They will bullshit their way in (help me, I was just raped, can I use your phone?) then take hostage/threaten and let their cohorts in.

Completely untrained people armed with golf clubs and single shot shotguns have done pretty damned well in repelling home invasions.

Now, the entirety of this thread can be pretty well summed up here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45glq7huJJc

[K.O.A.M.]

Pat Rogers has been a serious mentor to both Wayne and I, and we figured his last shoot house class is something we should do.

I'll see you there. This ought to be epic.

I took a LE one day "intro to CQB" course taught by Pat McNamara. We used sims, and it wasn't force on force. Pat's an excellent teacher-I have taken multiple classes from him-but this class was like trying to drink the ocean through a fire hose. I learned enough in that one day to know that CQB takes an immense amount of practice and that I'll probably never have the time nor the ability to approach competence at it.

[Gray222]

Pat Rogers has been a serious mentor to both Wayne and I, and we figured his last shoot house class is something we should do.

I might be done....when you got more info hit me up.

[Matthew]

I'm a prime example for this thread.

Yours truly,

The New Guy

[Matthew]

I'm a prime example for this thread.

Yours truly,

The New Guy

Luckily, I found a pretty good group of folks here.

[StraitR]

Luckily, I found a pretty good group of folks here.

One of the best things to do here on P-F is go into Mindset & Tactics as well as Marksmanship & Gun Handling sections, sort threads by "Replies" and read the most popular topics. Tons of good information. You'll also stumble across various links and references, which dig deeper into the subject matter. There is literally no end to the copious amounts of quality information funneled through P-F.

I've been here for years, but I still do this pretty often because I manage to find a new rabbit hole every time I look.

ETA: Also, many of our active members have websites/blogs, and links can often be found in their signature lines or referenced in various posts. They're well worth saving as bookmarks and visited frequently. Go read all the Rangemaster Newsletters (http://rangemaster.com/publications/rangemaster-newsletter/), they're packed with gems. It all makes me wonder why anyone would sit on FB or twitter for hours only to walk away having learned what Suzy had for dinner and what color Prius Dan just bought.

[Matthew]

One of the best things to do here on P-F is go into Mindset & Tactics as well as Marksmanship & Gun Handling sections, sort threads by "Replies" and read the most popular topics. Tons of good information. You'll also stumble across various links and references, which dig deeper into the subject matter. There is literally no end to the copious amounts of quality information funneled through P-F.

I've been here for years, but I still do this pretty often because I manage to find a new rabbit hole every time I look.

ETA: Also, many of our active members have websites/blogs, and links can often be found in their signature lines or referenced in various posts. They're well worth saving as bookmarks and visited frequently. Go read all the Rangemaster Newsletters (http://rangemaster.com/publications/rangemaster-newsletter/), they're packed with gems. It all makes me wonder why anyone would sit on FB or twitter for hours only to walk away having learned what Suzy had for dinner and what color Prius Dan just bought.

Thanks, StraitR! I'm excited to learn.