Safest action (MOA) for a carry pistol for the moderately experienced shooter

[pblanc]

I have been shooting pistols for some years but with much less intensity than many or most members of this forum. Time and financial constraints limit me to shooting perhaps once a month, and I do not go through hundreds of rounds when I do shoot. I have a concealed carry permit but I only rarely carry as I live in a relatively low-crime area. But with age and declining physical ability I sense that I may find myself carrying more often in the future and I will likely acquire a compact (not subcompact) auto-loader for this purpose within the next year.

I own traditional double action (TDA) or DA/SA pistols, one striker-fired action (SFA) pistol, one double-action only (DAO) hammer-fired pistol, and one single action only (SA) hammer-fired pistol and I shoot them all so I have a working familiarity with all these trigger actions. When I have carried it has generally been either a Beretta mini-Cougar 8000D DAO or a Beretta mini-Cougar 8040F TDA pistol.

Despite having first-hand experience with the most common trigger actions I am undecided as to what manual of arms would be most appropriate for what many here would consider me to be, an occasional shooter. Whenever I shoot one of my three TDA pistols I do work on the DA to SA shot transition and although I have improved, I don't feel I have truly mastered it with any of the three.

So I am poling the experienced gun handlers here as to what they feel is safest. When I refer to safety I am considering both avoiding an accidental discharge and being able to use the pistol quickly and effectively for self-defense should the need arise. Please don't suggest a revolver as my choice will definitely be an auto-loading pistol.

[JTQ]

I'd vote for a DAO or as is often discussed on this forum an HK LEM.

Forum member nyeti has made a good argument for the LEM. Here's a thread. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot

[LorenzoS]

I gave up TDA and SF platforms in favor of the HK LEM back in 2012 and would make the same decision today. I think the long travel gives a bit more margin for error than the others, and the simplicity allows me to spend my attention on things other than safeties or decockers. For someone without hours to train every week I think it's a great choice.

Have a look at this article from Darryl Bolke that describes it better than anyone. THere are several other threads here on pf.com that address some of the challenges of the system.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot

[olstyn]

I bet you'll get a lot of people suggesting HK LEM, and assuming that trigger works for you, it's hard to say they're wrong. I would suggest editing your poll, though, as the Walther AS system really is just a DA/SA/decocker pistol like a SIG. The only difference is that it has one extra mode which is used rarely, if at all. I simply treat mine as DA/SA, always holstered decocked. AS mode is used only at the range, and then only if I'm testing ammo for maximum accuracy. Therefore, I'd suggest taking it out of the "other" category.

[NCmtnman]

There have been PLENTY of people who have had an ND/AD with an HK LEM gun. I almost had one while holstering in an issued Blackhawk SERPA (moved to an ALS). The benefit is that I trained and dry fired that gun enough to realize that my finger had found it's way into the trigger guard and was pressing the trigger. The travel of the trigger gave me time for that "light bulb" to come on in my little brain. I most certainly would have let one go on a Glock or M&P. Luckily, no concrete was harmed and I kept my pants in one piece. A learning point for me was that while I may need to draw fast and shoot fast, I didn't need to holster fast.

[hufnagel]

my cake eating opinion: TDA so you can ride the hammer home, and a GOOD holster (not a SERPA).

[GJM]

The trigger system carried by an experienced, trained, current, and thoughtful owner.

[Nephrology]

Yeah... honestly, I am not so sure it matters. Striker fired I would qualify as the "least" safe, but I don't feel that unsafe carrying one AIWB. All of my triggers are stock weight and I practice good gun safety and slow, deliberate reholstering of loaded guns. I usually will put the gun in my holster off my body first and then fix it on my belt line without unholstering. That said I will say there are safety advantages to TDA/DAO pistols that I will not deny and am interested in moving into the system over time.

[Wondering Beard]

I have been shooting pistols for some years but with much less intensity than many or most members of this forum. Time and financial constraints limit me to shooting perhaps once a month, and I do not go through hundreds of rounds when I do shoot. I have a concealed carry permit but I only rarely carry as I live in a relatively low-crime area. But with age and declining physical ability I sense that I may find myself carrying more often in the future and I will likely acquire a compact (not subcompact) auto-loader for this purpose within the next year.

I own traditional double action (TDA) or DA/SA pistols, one striker-fired action (SFA) pistol, one double-action only (DAO) hammer-fired pistol, and one single action only (SA) hammer-fired pistol and I shoot them all so I have a working familiarity with all these trigger actions. When I have carried it has generally been either a Beretta mini-Cougar 8000D DAO or a Beretta mini-Cougar 8040F TDA pistol.

Despite having first-hand experience with the most common trigger actions I am undecided as to what manual of arms would be most appropriate for what many here would consider me to be, an occasional shooter. Whenever I shoot one of my three TDA pistols I do work on the DA to SA shot transition and although I have improved, I don't feel I have truly mastered it with any of the three.

So I am poling the experienced gun handlers here as to what they feel is safest. When I refer to safety I am considering both avoiding an accidental discharge and being able to use the pistol quickly and effectively for self-defense should the need arise. Please don't suggest a revolver as my choice will definitely be an auto-loading pistol.

Have you taken a class before?

I don't mean the type that gets you your CCW, but a weekend "tactical shooting" class with a known trainer like Tom Givens, John Farnam, Nyeti and Wayne, or others of that level?

I ask because one very important way to get to know how and what you're going to carry is to take a quality class where you and the gun are run hard. that way you get to know your present limits (that you will get to know how to improve on), how to be safe with whatever gun (and choose which works best that way for you), and how well you can fight with any of your chosen platforms.

If you haven't taken such a class, do try as most of your questions will be answered there.

[okie john]

The trigger system carried by an experienced, trained, current, and thoughtful owner.

This. You can get into trouble with anything if you're not what GJM described.

The guns you own cover the waterfront. If you truly do shoot only once a month, then pick one action type (not SA), devote yourself to it, sell the rest, and use the money for training and ammunition.

Of what you listed, I'd say DAO > striker > TDA.


Okie John

[pblanc]

Thanks for the advice, all. To answer your question Wondering Beard, no I have not taken a course a known handgun instructor. I have been given some one-on-one tutoring from a friend with significant combat experience (multiple deployments to the Middle East). Some years ago I bought one of those certificates off of ebay for a 4 day defensive handgun course at Frontsight in Nevada, but for various reasons life got in the way and I was unable to use it. I still have it if they will honor it.

A range recently opened nearby that offers some instruction according to NRA curricula as well as private instruction but it is one day and probably limited to a 150 rd count or so. It would be convenient but I sense that I might do better traveling some and taking at least a two day course from a nationally recognized instructor. Of course, the question would still arise as to what gun to take.

I have ruled out SA as a viable alternative realizing I will likely never be able to maintain the level of training to safely carry such a MOA. At present I am leaning toward DAO with TDA in second place.

[Wondering Beard]

Your friend sounds military and eventhough what he knows certainly has a great deal of value, it may not apply fully to what you are looking for.

If you know someone local to you that has a good CV in terms of concealed carry and training (IOW having taken more than one quality class and perhaps competes in some action pistol competition), you could ask him to give you some tutoring in the basics of drawing and engaging targets fast and safe as well as safe reloading and holstering so you have some basic understanding of what it all entails. This could help you begin to get a sense of what gun may fit best. Along with that, look at some of the Drill Of the Day exercises found on this forum to test which gun you shoot best (the best shooter may not be the best one to carry but if there is a great deal of difference in performance between the guns, that should tell you something).

The above should give you some clues for your gun needs but I really recommend you check the various instructors recommended in this forum, and find out when they are coming to teach close to you. If you still can't decide about the gun, take them all, try them out and get some advice during the class.

P.S. you didn't mention which guns you had in your original post, do you mind telling us what they are? you may get some more precise advice that way.

[YVK]

The trigger system carried by an experienced, trained, current, and thoughtful owner.

I thought I was one of them until I holstered an un-decocked Beretta once. That was after I was shooting several feet over the target's head once in six months when pushing speed with a Glock.

Between length of a trigger pull, a hammer down carry, and self-decocking nature of it, it is LEM for me, hands down.

[23JAZ]

Glock 19 with a gadget installed.

[GJM]

I thought I was one of them until I holstered an un-decocked Beretta once. That was before I was shooting several feet over the target's head once in six months when pushing speed with a Glock.

Between length of a trigger pull, a hammer down carry, and self-decocking nature of it, it is LEM for me, hands down.

I agree the LEM/DAO is simplest administratively, with a good margin of safety built in -- essentially a hi-cap DA only revolver.

Just to think this through, though, if you forgot to decock the 92, then missed that the hammer was back, and didn't thumb the hammer down while holstering, wouldn't you have forgotten to thumb the hammer on the LEM (or thumb a Gadget on the Glock, or hold up a thumb safety on a 1911)?

I like that I am gaming the DA/SA CZ and carrying a DA/SA Sig or HK, because while there are differences, fundamentally they work the same (DA first shot, SA after, with a requirement to decock).

I think the moral of this story, is switching between different systems (TDA, LEM, striker) brings an extra level of risk, especially during the transition process.

[YVK]

Just to think this through, though, if you forgot to decock the 92, then missed that the hammer was back, and didn't thumb the hammer down while holstering, wouldn't you have forgotten to thumb the hammer on the LEM (or thumb a Gadget on the Glock, or hold up a thumb safety on a 1911)?



Correct, I would've have. Except that LEM self-decocked and I got the safety margin of a long trigger travel anyway even though I myself effed up.

[LSP552]

I agree the LEM/DAO is simplest administratively, with a good margin of safety built in -- essentially a hi-cap DA only revolver.

I think the moral of this story, is switching between different systems (TDA, LEM, striker) brings an extra level of risk, especially during the transition process.

Agree with this.

[Vinh]

For the experience level indicated by the original poster, I would recommend the LEM. The only thing the user needs to remember is to thumb the hammer while holstering. Yes, less than 10 people in the world can shoot the LEM at a moderate level, but that's what makes it so safe!

As for TDA, the user needs to remember to decock, and failing that, also needs to remember to thumb the hammer when holstering.

Pistol thumb safety manipulation (cocked/locked with no decock option) is best reserved for high-level practitioners.

[pblanc]

P.S. you didn't mention which guns you had in your original post, do you mind telling us what they are? you may get some more precise advice that way.

As I said, I have had occasion to carry only rarely or at least felt the need to do so rarely. When I have it has been one of two Beretta mini-Cougars. The Cougars have a rather compact slide and barrel length and the minis have a compact grip length but the grips are a bit thicker than ideal for carry purposes.

The Cougars are a 8000D DAO 9mm and a 8040F TDA, both hammer-fired of course. The DAO has no safety. When I have carried the 8040F I have used the safety/decocker basically as a decocker, taking it off safe after holstering and carrying it that way.

I have two other TDA pistols, a Beretta 92FS with a Wilson Combat low-profile safety lever and a Stoeger Cougar 8045F. In addition I have a Springfield Armory Model 1911, a SIG Sauer P320 full-size .45 ACP, a Ruger GP100 .357 revolver, and a .22LR auto-loader a "Walter" (Umarex) P22 which is also a TDA pistol of course, but not one I would consider using for self-defense purposes. I have used the Stoeger 8045 with a Streamlight TLR-2 mounted as a home defense weapon (basically a night stand gun) until recently. Now the P320 has taken over that role.

[23JAZ]

As I said, I have had occasion to carry only rarely or at least felt the need to do so rarely. When I have it has been one of two Beretta mini-Cougars. The Cougars have a rather compact slide and barrel length and the minis have a compact grip length but the grips are a bit thicker than ideal for carry purposes.

The Cougars are a 8000D DAO 9mm and a 8040F TDA, both hammer-fired of course. The DAO has no safety. When I have carried the 8040F I have used the safety/decocker basically as a decocker, taking it off safe after holstering and carrying it that way.

I have two other TDA pistols, a Beretta 92FS with a Wilson Combat low-profile safety lever and a Stoeger Cougar 8045F. In addition I have a Springfield Armory Model 1911, a SIG Sauer P320 full-size .45 ACP, a Ruger GP100 .357 revolver, and a .22LR auto-loader a "Walter" (Umarex) P22 which is also a TDA pistol of course, but not one I would consider using for self-defense purposes. I have used the Stoeger 8045 with a Streamlight TLR-2 mounted as a home defense weapon (basically a night stand gun) until recently. Now the P320 has taken over that role.

If you're main concern is not having a N/D master the Beretta 92FS. But since you don't shoot much and/or have the ability / time needed to master it I'd consintrate on proper handling and go with the P320. No really I'd go with a G19 and a gadget but since you already have the P320 save the cash and buy ammo and practice. Slowly reholster and learn obsessive trigger finger discipline.

[Rick_ICT]

Just to be clear, are you wanting to select a carry gun from your current firearms based on the most recommended action type or are you entertaining the idea of acquiring a different gun specifically for the purpose?

If you are open to the idea of acquiring a different firearm, have you investigated what is available for rental at your local ranges? I purchased the gun I am currently transitioning to for carry after reading about it here, and then finding one for rent locally and confirming not just what I had read, but that the gun was a good fit for me. It's a Beretta PX4 Compact (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16519-The-PX4-Compact-might-be-my-DA-SA-Glock-19) 9mm TDA converted to decocker-only (no manual safety to worry about getting switched on when I'm not expecting it) if it is of any interest to you, but I believe very similar to your Cougar but polymer framed.

I agree with the previous poster that you will likely receive a lot of recommendations for HK LEM. If you haven't already read it, that thread LorenzoS pointed you to (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot) contains a fairly epic comparison of different action types written by a long time LEO and now trainer. I would highly recommend reading it. I learned from it, although I have so much to learn that may not indicate much.

While I do not own one, I've read a lot of great things about the 9mm HK P2000 in LEM (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16517-Hk-p2000-lem) (a DAO variant) written by people here whose advice and thoughts on firearms I feel very comfortable accepting at face value. It can be set up with a variety of trigger pull weights and "breaks" as I understand it. It appears to be about what you are looking for size-wise as well. One common caveat, though, seems to be that in order to run the LEMs at speed requires frequent practice. Apparently they reset practically all the way forward, and so it is easier to accidentally "short-stroke" the trigger when trying to run it fast/under pressure. I do own two other types of HK pistols, they truly are on their own level quality wise IMHO.

Of course, no discussion of acquiring a new firearm would be complete right now without mentioning the upcoming SHOT show. We already know Ruger is introducing a brand new striker pistol (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18527-New-Ruger-American-striker-fired-handgun-in-9mm-amp-45-acp) to their lineup for likely submission for the (FBI or Army, can't remember which) pistol trials. There will probably several new pistols introduced at SHOT in just a few weeks. It may take a while to shake them out (you don't want to wind up with one of this years' Remington R51 (http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2015/09/18/more-delays-remington-r51/)s) but if you aren't in a rush it might be interesting to see what hits the market.

I guess none of this was a direct answer to your question about safest action type (aside from I am transitioning from a striker fired pistol to a TDA myself), and I'm going to pass on voting in the poll since I don't feel qualified to express an opinion, but I hope there was something useful here for you. Good luck.

Rick

[Trooper224]

Considering your lack of commitment to proficiency I don't think any of your choices are appropriate. I'm not trying to insult you, but whether through lack of desire, ability or circumstance, you're not spending enough time and effort to gain a basic mastery of any of those systems. If you're going to carry a firearm you might want to consider a double action revolver.

[David S.]

My non-expert suggestion based on my limited training and extensive reading of this forum.

Pick one that fits you (ergonomically) and your lifestyle and rock on. It doesn't particularly matter which one. Since you don't have time or money to shoot anyway, consider selling (or putting in storage) the others and replacing with a second copy of your chosen gun.

Remember, it's the indian, not the arrow. Find a good two day course to give you a jump start. With some vague location information, I'm sure you can get some solid recommendations on someone local/regional or a traveling instructor that may come your way. ($400 + ammo + room/board) It's expensive, but if this is something that's important to you, the value really is there. You will be surprised how much you can learn during a good 2 day class. I try to make one per year.

Practice and dry fire. Look in to Claude Werner's dry fire program (Or Steve Anderson). Cheap and low time commitment. Try to dry fire a few days a week. 5+ minutes per session. Live fire once a month. More is obviously better.

This limited training won't impress anyone, and you won't become a HSLD super ninja, but I bet you can maintain enough skill that trigger choice becomes reasonably negligible.

Cheers,
David

[JHC]

Considering your lack of commitment to proficiency I don't think any of your choices are appropriate. I'm not trying to insult you, but whether through lack of desire, ability or circumstance, you're not spending enough time and effort to gain a basic mastery of any of those systems. If you're going to carry a firearm you might want to consider a double action revolver.

I was thinking sort of similar until he ruled out a wheelie. But question - would a true DAO semi like the S&W, or old 92 model or I guess his Cougar be even more idiot proof since they don't have the option of cocking a round SA like almost every wheelgun sold?

[NCmtnman]

Just a thought....

I am curious how different the poll would be if the only options were "Striker" and "DAO/TDA". I place the LEM and DAK under the DAO option. I know they are not EXACTLY DAO, but they mimic the action and have a similar range for user error aside from the de-cocking.

[olstyn]

Just a thought....

I am curious how different the poll would be if the only options were "Striker" and "DAO/TDA". I place the LEM and DAK under the DAO option. I know they are not EXACTLY DAO, but they mimic the action and have a similar range for user error aside from the de-cocking.

It's a hard thing to choose IMO. Striker is going to be considerably easier to shoot well with minimal levels of practice, meaning probable better speed and accuracy if you ever need it, but DAO/LEM/DAK/TDA unquestionably provides larger margin for error in day-to-day administrative tasks.

The poll does seem to indicate that there's one thing we all agree on; SAO is not a good idea for someone who's getting only small amounts of practice.

[Beat Trash]

I am old enough to remember when the world carried revolvers. And when LEO's and civilians alike also had ND's with a revolver. My point is that you are the safety, not the trigger system.

I would recommend you pick one type and stick with it, especially with the limited amount of time you have to spend with your guns.

The down side to a SA auto is remembering to disengage the safety under stress of an actual encounter. Also remembering to engage the safety when re-holstering.

The TDA or DA/SA semi auto sounds good at first for a person in your position, but again, you need to remember to de-cock the gun prior to re-holstering. That takes some time to engrain into your brain.

The striker fired guns are consistent. You don't have to worry about de-cocking them. My agency switched to a SF pistol about 8 years ago, I switched to one when off-duty about 16 years ago. I've never had an incident with one. The issues will be when re-holstering, ensuring that your trigger is out of the trigger guard. But that applies to any trigger system. Note, during this time frame, i carried at the 4 o'clock position, and not AWIB.

To me, your position screams for a LEM trigger like found on the HK's. A DAO would also work. I was issued a DAO S&W 5946 for several years. You could make it work, but I was not a fan. I only have a couple hundred rounds through a Sig DAK equipped pistol, but I didn't like it at all.

I do not think one trigger system is "safer" than another. I think that any trigger system which requires you to remember to engage/disengage a safety or to de-cock prior to holstering would not be recommended unless you are willing to put in the time and training to do these functions without thought, and while under life threatening stress.

I'd look at a LEM or a SF pistol...

[pblanc]

Yes the Cougar DAO has a spurless hammer and cannot be fired single action. The only thing in my mind that would make it less safe than a double action revolver would be the need to clear a malfunction, but it has never malfunctioned on me and I have, in fact, spent some time practicing malfunction drills, but not under supervision. To me a 9mm Para just seems to make a lot more sense as a self-defense round than .357 Magnum or even 38 Special +P (yes, I know there are revolvers chambered for rimless cartridges). I actually like my mini-Cougars quite well, but they are all-metal pistols and a bit heavy, and as I mentioned they have pretty thick grips as many Berettas do.

I have in fact spent a considerable amount of time in dry fire practice but I am not specifically familiar with Claude Werner's or Steve Anderson's programs, but I will look those up. Thanks for the tip, David S.

I am completely in agreement with the idea of taking at least a weekend length course with a good instructor. As I said, I had planned to take a four day course some years back but events conspired against me. Part of the difficulty in shooting more frequently has been the lack of a suitable range. There is a free range managed by the State of Indiana within reasonable driving distance but it is still about 30 minutes away one way, and the rules prohibit shooting from anywhere but the stand which is 25yds from the target backstops. Also drawing from holster and rapid fire are prohibited so it is far from ideal for self-defense training purposes. In the last year two indoor ranges have opened up, one quite close to me so my shooting opportunities might well open up in future.

Rick_ICT, yes I am looking at acquiring a polymer-framed, "compact" size pistol, almost certainly chambered in 9mm Para, sometime this year and I am thinking ahead. I am very fond of my SIG P320 thus far and would certainly consider a P320 9mm compact if I go the striker-fired action route. Other candidates on my list in that category are the HK VP9, Steyr M9-A1, and Walther PPQ. If I go the TDA route, both the Beretta PX4C and the Walther P99 are on my short list, and I am watching the Langdon Tactical PX4C threads with interest. If I go DAO it will likely be the SIG P250 since it shares the same grips with the P320s which I find so comfortable.

There are only two ranges within reasonable distance that have rentals and they have somewhat limited selections. Lots of Glocks, of course, but I don't find Glocks comfortable in my hand and they don't point too naturally for me. I have had an opportunity to shoot a HK VP9 but no Beretta PX4s, SIG P250s, or Walthers as yet. I occasionally get to trade off with someone at the open range and fire a new pistol but again, it has to be at 25 yds unless I break the rules.

Thanks again, everyone for the suggestions.

[JDM]

If I was handing a gun to someone who would practice very little and wasn't interested in guns past getting one and learning to work it, it would be some flavor of "easy" DAO.

LEM comes to mind immediately

Second, and moving to first once widespread availability is achieved, would be a Gadget equipped Glock 17 or 19.

[Default.mp3]

Lots of Glocks, of course, but I don't find Glocks comfortable in my hand and they don't point too naturally for me.How a gun feels in hand is overrated when it comes to how ones shoots it, assuming one is dedicated to learning how to shoot. Note that Glocks also have far more support, such as plentiful dummy guns, much more holster options, SIRT guns, .22 conversions, etc.

Even if you can't find a range that allows you to draw, much of what Mike Pannone says here could be quite useful to you:

“A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state …”

2016 is here and if you are a lawful carrier of a concealed pistol I ask you to do yourself, those in your charge, and the country a favor. Think of it as one of your New Year’s resolutions for every year you plan to carry a gun. Below are the minimums but the point is that it is not a great expenditure in time or money considering how important the skills are.

1. Seek training or sustain the training you have already sought. Going to a good shooting course is like taking a college class, if you don’t use it you won’t retain it. You can go to most Walmart stores right now and buy 9mm for about $10 a box so for 100 rounds “taxes, tags and dealer prep” I’m in it for about $25. I often see American made 9mm for under $9.98 and foreign for that or less at times on the internet as well. Now I have 100 rounds to practice so I would split that into two 50 round sessions like I have written of before on SSD:



Freestyle slow fire- 10 rounds
Strong hand only- 10 rounds
Support hand only- 10 rounds
Draw shot slide-lock reload shot 10 rounds
Draw shot-magazine-exchange shot 10 rounds


(All shots are fired from the holster alternating the start position from hands at sides to surrender position and all ending with the pistol returned to the holster. 40 draws (10 with transition to support hand), 50 precision shots (30 freestyle, 10 strong hand only 10 support hand only), 5 slide lock reloads, 5 magazine exchanges.)

2. Make the time to practice. Not “find the time”, MAKE the time! What would those skills be worth to you in time and money if they were needed and not present? If you exercise the right then you are obligated to be responsible and proficient…otherwise leave it at home. I will run the above course of fire several times a week if I am working a rifle emphasis just to keep my skills current and it works. It usually takes well under 20 minutes. Another thing I do and it should be a must, like not leaving the house without your wallet and phone is my “Morning minute” this in truth might be more important than the range time but I see both as crucial.

Noner’s Morning minute-ENSURE YOUR GUN IS CLEAR. DO NOT DO THIS WITH A LOADED GUN!-

*Put your holster in the location you intend to carry and for one minute draw from that holster at a progressively faster rate. What you are doing is dry-firing the garment/holster location and trying to find a failure point i.e. some manner in which your current garment and holster location are not compatible and might cause you to have a bad draw. You can easily get 10 good draws in 1 minute and you are now ready to go out into the world with a properly donned gun and a proper mindset.

All together I can go to the range twice a month for $25 and dedicate 40 minutes of actual shooting time. Let’s say total prep time to and from range is 30 minutes. That puts me at 200 minutes a month and add in the 30 minutes of dry Morning minute draws and we are at 230 minutes a month or round it up to 240 or 4 hours of the 720 in a month. Put it all together and in the entire calendar year for $300 and 48 hours of my entire year . I did the following and all on a consistent basis which is crucial.

1200 good quality training rounds fired
720 freestyle
240 strong hand only
240 support hand only
120 slide lock reloads
120 magazine exchanges
3600 dry draws (at only 10 per morning)
480 draws live




There are 8766 hours in a year and 48 of them adds up to .5% of my year. So I still have 99.5% of my year left over to do all the other stuff.
$300 is the cost of five Grande Mocha’s at Starbucks a week on average or one decent sit-down lunch for one.
1 minute out of every 24 hours is 1/1440th of you day. You spend as much time waiting on one long light by you house.


THIS IS ONLY WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER THE MINIMUM BUT IT IS STILL VERY EFFECTIVE ON A LIMITED BUDGET.

It doesn’t take a lot of money or a lot of time and it’s worth every penny, every minute and every bullet expended. Do the math and do yourself and all of us a favor. Times are tough and if San Bernardino and Paris are indicators, it will get a lot tougher. We need all able-bodied men and women on deck and ready for inclement weather. It’s not too much to ask in this, the greatest country the world has ever known.
Source: http://soldiersystems.net/2016/01/02/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-34/

[Peally]

Buy any of the above, go train, be a baller at life.

You're basically asking "which gun is safest if I don't really train that much" on a site almost exclusively dedicated to training and becoming highly proficient with pistols ;)

[Beat Trash]

How a gun feels in hand is overrated when it comes to how ones shoots it, assuming one is dedicated to learning how to shoot. Note that Glocks also have far more support, such as plentiful dummy guns, much more holster options, SIRT guns, .22 conversions, etc.

Even if you can't find a range that allows you to draw, much of what Mike Pannone says here could be quite useful to you:

Source: http://soldiersystems.net/2016/01/02/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-34/

True.

Get the hardware.

Then spend time focusing on the software.

[pangloss]

Has anyone suggested a Type C Beretta PX4? At least I think that is the name of the model I'm thinking about. I don't think they are current production and I'm not sure if any compacts were ever made. Nevertheless the idea seems worth looking into given the OP's fondness for Beretta. The frame of a full size could be cut to accept compact mags.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[john c]

I agree with the others that DAO is the way to go. You have a long, deliberate trigger pull, a hammer to ride while reholstering, and nothing to decock under stress.

Like me, it appears that you have a number of very different pistols. If money is tight get rid of the pistols you're not sentimental about. Get a couple of copies of the pistol you make your primary pistol.

I think the P250 is a great choice. Key reasons are that it's a good pistol that's very inexpensive. I recommend getting at least two; one for carry, and one for training/dry fire. About 6 months ago I picked up a second G17, and I keep it in my bedroom safe along with my duty/carry G17. I keep my training gun unloaded, so every time I open the safe to take my gun out, I pull out my training gun and dry fire it 10-20 times deliberately. This has removed a significant barrier for me to doing dry fire training. I found I never unloaded and dry fired my primary piece. I use my training gun at the range more often that I did my primary piece.

With the P250/P320, you could get a smaller version (subcompact/compact) for carry, and a Full Size or Carry for practice. The trigger pulls and geometry are the same between sizes, despite the overall size differences. The larger gun can easily do duty as a bedside gun.

I see that you stock a lot of calibers. I do, too, so I'm not judging. However, if on a budget, move to 9mm for cost and ease of shooting.

Finally, after owning a full size P320 in 9mm for a while, I wish I got the Carry instead. I thought I'd like the longer sight radius, but the fact is the pistol is huge.

[TiroFijo]

Respectfully, on questions like this I would prefer to read the opinions of SME, or experienced shooters with articulate reasoning.
Not just a poll so that anyone can simply give a vote.

[Peally]

That's not nearly as fun.

[SAWBONES]

I've always strongly favored a "same trigger action for every pull", and when you add to that the desirability of a short trigger pull, and a relatively light trigger pull weight, a striker-fired pistol will typically be the choice.

For those who are *ahem* "experienced", a tuned 1911 trigger has an even better quality of action, though the issue of an affirmative mechanical safety "muddies the water" as regards safety of overall use.

[RJ]

Respectfully, on questions like this I would prefer to read the opinions of SME, or experienced shooters with articulate reasoning.
Not just a poll so that anyone can simply give a vote.

Mmmyeah, true, but: It gives you an idea of where the group is at. This being PF, my belief is that since the SNR here is higher than average, that 'group' vote is pretty telling.

Plus, the SMEs can always put their $0.02 in the comments.

Although: there are a few folks here, by the consistent quality of their posts, that I value as highly as a member with the SME title.

[GJM]

This kind of thread inevitably leads to confirmation bias, as people get progressively more comfortable with their choices over time. While there may be small differences in safety between different platforms, I would argue they are inconsequential compared to your skill level. If you are really looking for the safest system, I bet condition three with any handgun type is safer than DAO/LEM, TDA or striker.

[BehindBlueI's]

So I am poling the experienced gun handlers here as to what they feel is safest. When I refer to safety I am considering both avoiding an accidental discharge and being able to use the pistol quickly and effectively for self-defense should the need arise. Please don't suggest a revolver as my choice will definitely be an auto-loading pistol.

Just because I'm contrary, I'd point out a revolver is perfect for what you want to do. No manual safeties or decockers to fuss with, a forgiving trigger for accidental brushes, etc.

I would not recommend anything with a thumb safety if you are not truly dedicated to training under stress until you literally cannot fail to get the safety off. 1911s are great guns, but I see a lot of folks struggle with them the first time they are put under stress. Piss poor draw failing to deactivate the grip safety, thumb safety only partially deactivated, etc. I *personally* prefer DA/SA but again, you've got to be willing to work it enough you never fail to decock after a string of fire and some folks find the trigger transition tough for some reason. So, that said I'd go with either striker fired or DAO. A quality holster, don't be afraid to look at the holster prior to reholstering (I know it's not tacticool, but for non LEO applications it's rarely going to be an issue) and make sure to have an unobstructed holster while holstering without sweeping yourself.

Or a revolver. :D

[RJ]

Just because I'm contrary, I'd point out a revolver is perfect for what you want to do. No manual safeties or decockers to fuss with, a forgiving trigger for accidental brushes, etc.

I would not recommend anything with a thumb safety if you are not truly dedicated to training under stress until you literally cannot fail to get the safety off. 1911s are great guns, but I see a lot of folks struggle with them the first time they are put under stress. Piss poor draw failing to deactivate the grip safety, thumb safety only partially deactivated, etc. I *personally* prefer DA/SA but again, you've got to be willing to work it enough you never fail to decock after a string of fire and some folks find the trigger transition tough for some reason. So, that said I'd go with either striker fired or DAO. A quality holster, don't be afraid to look at the holster prior to reholstering (I know it's not tacticool, but for non LEO applications it's rarely going to be an issue) and make sure to have an unobstructed holster while holstering without sweeping yourself.

Or a revolver. :D

If I knew anything about how to buy a good used revolver, I'd seriously be looking at getting one for a bedside gun.

Last time I was at my LGS, there were oodles of Police / used .38 revolvers on the used gun table.

[BehindBlueI's]

If I knew anything about how to buy a good used revolver, I'd seriously be looking at getting one for a bedside gun.

Last time I was at my LGS, there were oodles of Police / used .38 revolvers on the used gun table.

It's not rocket surgery. I think there was a thread here on it not too long ago, or maybe it was Indiana Gun Owners. I won't sidetrack this thread but if you're interested start one and I'll try to help.

[RJ]

It's not rocket surgery. I think there was a thread here on it not too long ago, or maybe it was Indiana Gun Owners. I won't sidetrack this thread but if you're interested start one and I'll try to help.

Gotcha. I'll have a look; I'm sure there are enough revolver folks here that it'd be interesting.

I mean, all the guns on the table were made of...steel, you know? Who knew you could make a gun out of something other than polymer. Amazing.

(:cool:)

[GJM]

Rich, I don't think it is a good idea at this point in your development, to having a completely different action, such as a revolver, to be your night time go to gun, when you are primarily developing your semi-auto VP9 skills. Frankly, it might not be a great idea for most others either.

[RJ]

Rich, I don't think it is a good idea at this point in your development, to having a completely different action, such as a revolver, to be your night time go to gun, when you are primarily developing your semi-auto VP9 skills. Frankly, it might not be a great idea for most others either.

Yeah. I dunno, just thinking out loud while waiting around for SHOT / MHS / FBI.

[pblanc]

If I knew anything about how to buy a good used revolver, I'd seriously be looking at getting one for a bedside gun.

Last time I was at my LGS, there were oodles of Police / used .38 revolvers on the used gun table.
Well, I bought my Ruger GP100 4" a few years back for less than $350. Detail stripped it, polished up the internals, swapped the trigger plunger and hammer mainsprings, shimmed the trigger, hammer, and hammer dog and it shoots very nicely. Rather big to carry, however, and I am not sure that I could control a rapid string of .357 Magnum shots. From what I have gleaned, even 38 Special +P JHP ammo leaves a bit to be desired compared to modern 9mm Para JHP ammo.

[RoyGBiv]

IMO the "best" is the one you like enough to shoot enough to be competent with.
Caveat: Drop safety. Because ... Fumbling your gat happens. Eventually.

[David S.]

Last I checked, the P-F standard answer to "What Gun?" is the Glock 19.

At what point is your training considered dedicated enough to be qualified to carry such an advanced trigger?

[GJM]

Last I checked, the P-F standard answer to "What Gun?" is the Glock 19.

At what point is your training considered dedicated enough to be qualified to carry such an advanced trigger?

SF Military experience or Front Sight certificate from 2 day or longer class.

[spinmove_]

The "safest" action for ANY shooter, IMHO, would be the one the shooter is most familiar with WHILE ALSO adhering to the 4 fundamental safety rules. Your "better mousetrap" doesn't inherently make you "more safer" or "less safe". Here's what you need in order to be safe with your firearm:

1.) Adhere to 4 rules of firearm safety.
2.) Use a good holster.
3.) Get training.

Barring any human that goes and humans themselves an error of some sort, those 3 steps above will pretty much cure any shooter of any safety issues.