Militia occupies Federal Building in OR

[HCM]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/02/3735576/150-armed-militia-members-take-over-federal-building/

Unkown how reliable the source is but the story claims a militia group is occupying a building on a Federal Wildlife refuge in Oregon to protest the conviction of two local ranchers on federal arson charges. The militia group is supposed to include the sons of Nevada Rancher Cliven Bundy.


It will be interesting to see how this develops.

[HCM]

A more reliable source http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html

[HCM]

Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/03/armed-militia-storm-national-wildlife-refuge-building-following-protest.html?intcmp=hpbt2

[eb07]

This won't end well

[GardoneVT]

Are these guys trying to be the photo-negative of Black Lives Matter?

[PPGMD]

To the Militiamen: You're not helping!

Honestly I've heard some pretty shady things not sure what is true or not. Namely that the two were released from prison, and then after they were released the prosecutor had an issue with it saying that they should've served more time.

[LockedBreech]

Ahh good, more people fighting for the Constitution their ideologies made up and not the one we actually have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chance]

Ammon Bundy is with a group of protesters who have occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge center to protest the arson conviction of two Oregon ranchers. For those blessed with a short memory, Ammon Bundy is the son of Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a standoff over grazing rights in 2014. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35216879):


Armed protesters have occupied a US government building in Oregon to support father and son ranchers who have been ordered to return to jail. Dwight Hammond, 73, and his son Steven, 46, were convicted of arson in 2012 but a court ruled their original sentences were too short. They said they lit the fires to reduce the growth of invasive species and protect their land from wildfires. The case has riled right-wing activists who resent government interference.

Other news sources are reporting that the group has stated they're going to stay there "for years."

merged with existing thread -- Tom_Jones

[HCM]

To the Militiamen: You're not helping!

Honestly I've heard some pretty shady things not sure what is true or not. Namely that the two were released from prison, and then after they were released the prosecutor had an issue with it saying that they should've served more time.

As I understand it, the charge the two were convicted of carries a 5 year mandatory minimum sentence. After their conviction via a full jury trail, during the sentencing phase, the defense attorney convinced the trial judge the mandatory minimum sentence was unconstitutional. The original trial judge set aside the mandatory minimum sentence on the basis that he agreed with the defenses theory it was unconstitutional and sentenced the two to a few months each. I believe one month and three months respectively.

The U.S. Attorney appealed the judges sentencing decision to the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ( CCCA) which found the mandatory minimum sentence was, in fact constitutional. The CCA reversed the judge's sentencing decision and ordered the two re-sentenced in accordance with the statute, including the 5 year mandatory minimum.

I can tell you from personal experience it is not unusual for CCA litigation to drag on for years.

[CCT125US]

I don't know the particulars in this case. But I do know the nightmare that is the USFWS (Fish and Wildlife Service) They took years of my family's life in a failed attempt to make a wildlife refuge of our property and 50,000 acres. I tend to side with farmers and ranchers after that experience.

[Chance]

I can tell you from personal experience it is not unusual for CCA litigation to drag on for years.

The two ranchers have stated the protesters don't speak on their behalf, and that they will surrender peacefully on schedule.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't know the particulars in this case. But I do know the nightmare that is the USFWS (Fish and Wildlife Service) They took years of my family's life in a failed attempt to make a wildlife refuge of our property and 50,000 acres. I tend to side with farmers and ranchers after that experience.

I understand this statement.

Sounds like these ranchers are getting far more time than more serious crimes. Is this in the best interest of our society to continue to punish them?

[Cookie Monster]

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

This is not about taking someone's ranch, this is about two individuals starting fires on federal land to 1) cover up poaching game and 2) starting fires on federal land to "protect their land." Conducting backfires without talking with firefighters, they are lucky they didn't kill some firefighters and get life sentences.

I have no heartburn these folks sitting in prison, the having to go back because the court is funky or new rulings feels like they are getting jacked around.

Ranchers who graze on public lands with the near non existent grazing fees should just admit it's welfare.

[HCM]

The two ranchers have stated the protesters don't speak on their behalf, and that they will surrender peacefully on schedule.

To me that removes what little justification there might be for the so called Militia's actions.

[HCM]

I understand this statement.

Sounds like these ranchers are getting far more time than more serious crimes. Is this in the best interest of our society to continue to punish them?

There is an accepted method to conduct prescribed fires. Meaning: firelines cut, personnel in place to hold the fire in the bounds of the plan, actually having a written plan ahead of time etc.


Arson is a serious crime. So serious the use of deadly physical force is authorized to prevent it as with Murder, Rape, Robbery and Kidnapping. I don't know about you, but if I were a firefighter, on public land fighting a fire, and the person who started the original fire started another fire behind me with no notice, told me to clear out and then started yet another fire I would consider that a threat to my life and the lives of my fellow firefighters.



Here is the actual indictment. http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Hammond_superseding-indictment1.pdf


25. On or about August 23, 2006, defendant DWIGHT LINCOLN HAMMOND, JR.
and defendant STEVEN DWIGHT HAMMOND started, ignited and set a series of fires behind
and in front of BLM employees and firefighters Chad Rott and Lisa Megargee on or near Bridge
Creek Road, property owned and possessed by the United States, the DOl and BLM.


27. On or about August 23,2006, after driving around BLM employees and
firefighters Chad Rott and Lisa Megargee, defendant STEVEN DWIGHT HAMMOND stopped
the pickup truck he was driving to allow defendant DWIGHT LINCOLN HAMMOND, JR. to
get out ofthe pickup truck so he could start a series offires along or near Bridge Creek Road.

28. On or about August 23, 2006, at approximately 10:00 am, without providing prior
notification to BLM employees and firefighters, Chad Rott and Lisa Megargee, defendant
DWIGHT LINCOLN HAMMOND, JR. started, ignited and set multiple fires along or near the
Bridge Creek Road, property owned and possessed by the United States, the DOl and BLM,
located in Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area, in Harney County,
Oregon.

29. On or about August 23, 2006, defendant STEVEN DWIGHT HAMMOND with
defendant DWIGHT LINCOLN HAMMOND, JR. no longer a passenger, drove a pickup truck to
the south end of Bridge Creek Road and met BLM employees and firefighters Lance Okeson and
Joe Glascock, and when Lance Okeson informed him that he needed to notifY BLM what he was
doing because he could kill someone, defendant STEVEN DWIGHT HAMMOND told Lance
Okeson that maybe you guys had just better clear out.

30. On or about August 23, 2006, at approximately 10:20 am, defendant DWIGHT
LINCOLN HAMMOND, JR. started a fire in grass and vegetation near or beneath a juniper tree,
then began walking west toward Bridge Creek Road.

31. On or about August 23, 2006, as defendant DWIGHT LINCOLN HAMMOND,
JR. was walking west across Bridge Creek Road, he did not stop after being told to do so by
BLM employee and firefighter, Lance Okeson.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

This is not about taking someone's ranch, this is about two individuals starting fires on federal land to 1) cover up poaching game and 2) starting fires on federal land to "protect their land." Conducting backfires without talking with firefighters, they are lucky they didn't kill some firefighters and get life sentences.

I have no heartburn these folks sitting in prison, the having to go back because the court is funky or new rulings feels like they are getting jacked around.

Ranchers who graze on public lands with the near non existent grazing fees should just admit it's welfare.


I think the sentencing is beyond ridiculous and quantifying my statement with the fact that I don't know much about the case; I know for a fact that starting controlled fires is a time honored method of dealing with unwanted plants and species.

There's not a doubt in my mind that there is two sides to this story and I have a hard time believing the ranchers-slaughtering-deer-just for-fun charge.

Probably a biased source but at least another side (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/)


(a) In 1964 the Hammonds purchased their ranch in the Harney Basin. The purchase included approximately 6000 acres of private property, 4 grazing rights on public land, a small ranch house and 3 water rights. The ranch is around 53 miles South of Burns, Oregon.

(a1) By the 1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The refuge covers over 187,000 acres and stretches over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. The expansion of the refuge grew and surrounds to the Hammond’s ranch. Being approached many times by the FWS, the Hammonds refused to sell. Other ranchers also choose not to sell.

(a2) During the 1970’s the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in conjunction with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), took a different approach to get the ranchers to sell. Ranchers were told that, “grazing was detrimental to wildlife and must be reduced”. 32 out of 53 permits were revoked and many ranchers were forced to leave. Grazing fees were raised significantly for those who were allowed to remain. Refuge personnel took over the irrigation system claiming it as their own.

(a3) By 1980 a conflict was well on its way over water allocations on the adjacent privately owned Silvies Plain. The FWS wanted to acquire the ranch lands on the Silvies Plain to add to their already vast holdings. Refuge personnel intentional diverted the water to bypassing the vast meadowlands, directing the water into the rising Malheur Lakes. Within a few short years the surface area of the lakes doubled. Thirty-one ranches on the Silvies plains were flooded. Homes, corrals, barns and graze-land were washed a way and destroyed. The ranchers that once fought to keep the FWS from taking their land, now broke and destroyed, begged the FWS to acquire their useless ranches. In 1989 the waters began to recede and now the once thriving privately owned Silvies pains are a proud part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge claimed by the FWS.

(a4) By the 1990’s the Hammonds were one of the very few ranchers that still owned private property adjacent to the refuge. Susie Hammond in an effort to make sense of what was going on began compiling fact about the refuge. In a hidden public record she found a study that was done by the FWS in 1975. The study showed that the “no use” policies of the FWS on the refuge were causing the wildlife to leave the refuge and move to private property. The study showed that the private property adjacent to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge produced 4 times more ducks and geese than the refuge did. It also showed that the migrating birds were 13 times more likely to land on private property than on the refuge. When Susie brought this to the attention of the FWS and refuge personnel, her and her family became the subjects of a long train of abuses and corruptions.

(b) In the early 1990’s the Hammonds filed on a livestock water source and obtained a deed for the water right from the State of Oregon. When the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) found out that the Hammonds obtained new water rights near the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge, they were agitated and became belligerent and vindictive towards the Hammonds. The US Fish and Wildlife Service challenged the Hammonds right to the water in an Oregon State Circuit Court. The court found that the Hammonds legally obtained rights to the water in accordance to State law and therefore the use of the water belongs to the Hammonds.*

(c) In August 1994 the BLM & FWS illegally began building a fence around the Hammonds water source. Owning the water rights and knowing that their cattle relied on that water source daily the Hammonds tried to stop the building of the fence. The BLM & FWS called the Harney County Sheriff department and had Dwight Hammond (Father) arrested and charged with “disturbing and interfering with” federal officials or federal contractors (two counts, each a felony). He spent one night in the Deschutes County Jail in Bend, and a second night behind bars in Portland before he was hauled before a federal magistrate and released without bail. A hearing on the charges was postponed and the federal judge never set another date.

(d) The FWS also began restricting access to upper pieces of the Hammond’s private property. In order to get to the upper part of the Hammond’s ranch they had to go on a road that went through the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge. The FWS began barricading the road and threatening the Hammonds if they drove through it. The Hammonds removed the barricades and gates and continued to use their right of access. The road was proven later to be owned by the County of Harney. This further enraged the BLM & FWS.

(e) Shortly after the road & water disputes, the BLM & FWS arbitrarily revoked the Hammond’s upper grazing permit without any given cause, court proceeding or court ruling. As a traditional “fence out state” Oregon requires no obligation on the part of an owner to keep his or her livestock within a fence or to maintain control over the movement of the livestock. The Hammonds intended to still use their private property for grazing. However, they were informed that a federal judge ruled, in a federal court, that the federal government did not have to observe the Oregon fence out law. “Those laws are for the people, not for them”.

(f) The Hammonds were forced to either build and maintain miles of fences or be restricted from the use of their private property. Cutting their ranch in almost half, they could not afford to fence the land, so the cattle were removed.

(g) The Hammonds experienced many years of financial hardship due to the ranch being diminished. The Hammonds had to sale their ranch and home in order to purchase another property that had enough grass to feed their cattle. This property included two grazing rights on public land. Those were also arbitrarily revoked later.

(h) The owner of the Hammond’s original ranch passed away from a heart attack and the Hammonds made a trade for the ranch back.

(i) In the early fall of 2001, Steven Hammond (Son) called the fire department, informing them that he was going to be performing a routine prescribed burn on their ranch. Later that day he started a prescribed fire on their private property. The fire went onto public land and burned 127 acres of grass. The Hammonds put the fire out themselves. There was no communication about the burn from the federal government to the Hammonds at that time. Prescribed fires are a common method that Native Americans and ranchers have used in the area to increase the health & productivity of the land for many centuries.

(j) In 2006 a massive lightning storm started multiple fires that joined together inflaming the countryside. To prevent the fire from destroying their winter range and possibly their home, Steven Hammond (Son) started a backfire on their private property. The backfire was successful in putting out the lightning fires that had covered thousands of acres within a short period of time. The backfire saved much of the range and vegetation needed to feed the cattle through the winter. Steven’s mother, Susan Hammond said: “The backfire worked perfectly, it put out the fire, saved the range and possibly our home”.

(j1) The next day federal agents went to the Harney County Sheriff’s office and filled a police report making accusation against Dwight and Steven Hammond for starting the backfire. A few days after the backfire a Range-Con from the Burns District BLM office asked Steven if he would meet him in town (Frenchglen) for coffee. Steven accepted. When leaving he was arrested by the Harney County Sheriff Dave Glerup and BLM Ranger Orr. Sheriff Glerup then ordered him to go to the ranch and bring back his father. Both Dwight and Steven were booked and on multiple Oregon State charges. The Harney County District Attorney reviewed the accusation, evidence and charges, and determined that the accusations against Dwight & Steven Hammond did not warrant prosecution and dropped all the charges.

(k) In 2011, 5 years after the police report was taken, the U.S. Attorney Office accused Dwight and Steven Hammond of completely different charges, they accused them of being “Terrorist” under the Federal Antiterrorism Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. This act carries a minimum sentence of five years in prison and a maximum sentence of death. Dwight & Steven’s mug shots were all over the news the next week posing them as “Arsonists”. Susan Hammond (Wife & Mother) said: “I would walk down the street or go in a store, people I had known for years would take extreme measures to avoid me”.

(l) Shortly after the sentencing, Capital Press ran a story about the Hammonds. A person who identified as Greg Allum posted three comments on the article, calling the ranchers “clowns” who endangered firefighters and other people in the area while burning valuable rangeland. Greg Allum, a retired BLM heavy equipment operator, soon called Capital Press to complain that he had not made those comments and request that they be taken down from the website. Capital Press removed the comments. A search of the Internet Protocol address associated with the comments revealed it is owned by the BLM’s office in Denver, Colorado. Allum said, he is friends with the Hammonds and was alerted to the comments by neighbors who knew he wouldn’t have written them. “I feel bad for them. They lost a lot and they’re going to lose more,” Allum said of the ranchers. “They’re not terrorists. There’s this hatred in the BLM for them, and I don’t get it,” The retired BLM employee said. Jody Weil, deputy state director for communications at BLM’s Oregon office, indicated to reporters that if one of their agents falsified the comments, they would keep it private and not inform the public.

(m) In September 2006, Dwight & Susan Hammond’s home was raided. The agents informed the Hammonds that they were looking for evidence that would connect them to the fires. The Hammonds later found out that a boot print and a tire tracks were found near one of the many fires. No matching boots or tires were found in the Hammonds home or on their property. Susan Hammond (Wife) later said; ” I have never felt so violated in my life. We are ranchers not criminals”. Steven Hammond openly maintains his testimony that he started the backfire to save the winter grass from being destroyed and that the backfire ended up working so well it put out the fire entirely altogether.

(n) During the trial proceedings, Federal Court Judge Michael Hogan did not allow time for certain testimonies and evidence into the trail that would exonerate the Hammonds. Federal prosecuting attorney, Frank Papagni, was given full access for 6 days. He had ample time to use any evidence or testimony that strengthened the demonization of the Hammonds. The Hammonds attorney was only allowed 1 day. Much of the facts about the fires, land and why the Hammonds acted the way they did was not allowed into the proceedings and was not heard by the jury. For example, Judge Hogan did not allow time for the jury to hear or review certified scientific findings that the fires improved the health and productivity of the land. Or, that the Hammonds had been subject to vindictive behavior by multiple federal agencies for years.

(o) Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson.

(p) Judge Michael Hogan & Frank Papagni tampered with the jury many times throughout the proceedings, including during the selection process. Hogan & Papagni only allowed people on the jury who did not understand the customs and culture of the ranchers or how the land is used and cared for in the Diamond Valley. All of the jurors had to drive back and forth to Pendleton everyday. Some drove more than two hours each way. By day 8 they were exhausted and expressed desires to be home.

On the final day, Judge Hogan kept pushing them to make a verdict. Several times during deliberation, Judge Hogan pushed them to make a decision. Judge Hogan also would not allow the jury to hear what punishment could be imposed upon an individual that has convicted as a terrorist under the 1996 act. The jury, not understanding the customs and cultures of the area, influenced by the prosecutors for 6 straight days, very exhausted, pushed for a verdict by the judge, unaware of the ramification of convicting someone as a terrorist, made a verdict and went home.

(q) June 22, 2012, Dwight and Steven were found guilty of starting both the 2001 and the 2006 fires by the jury. However, the federal courts convicted them both as “Terrorist” under the 1996 Antiterrorism Act. Judge Hogan sentenced Dwight (Father) to 3 months in prison and Steven (son) to 12 months in federal prison. They were also stipulated to pay $400,000 to the BLM. Hogan overruling the minimum terrorist sentence, commenting that if the full five years were required it would be a violation of the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment). The day of the sentencing Judge Hogan retired as a federal judge. In his honor the staff served chocolate cake in the courtroom.

(r) On January 4,, 2013, Dwight and Steven reported to prison. They fulfilled their sentences, (Dwight 3 months, Steven 12 months). Dwight was released in March 2013 and Steven, January 2014.

(s) Sometime in June 2014, Rhonda Karges, Field Manager for the BLM, and her husband Chad Karges, Refuge Manager for the Malheur Wildlife Refuge (which surrounds the Hammond ranch), along with attorney Frank Papagni exemplifying further vindictive behavior by filing an appeal with the 9th District Federal Court seeking Dwight’s and Steven’s return to federal prison for the entire 5 years.*

(t) In October 2015, the 9th District Court “resentenced” Dwight and Steven, requiring them to return to prison for several more years. Steven (46) has a wife and 3 children. Dwight (74) will leave Susan (74) to be alone after 55 years of marriage. If he survives, he will be 79 when he is released.

(u) During the court preceding the Hammonds were forced to grant the BLM first right of refusal. If the Hammonds ever sold their ranch they would have to sell it to the BLM.

(v) Dwight and Steven are ordered to report to federal prison again on January 4th, 2016 to begin their re-sentencing. Both their wives will have to manage the ranch for several years without them.

To date they have paid $200,000 to the BLM, and the remainder $200,000 must be paid before the end of this year (2015). If the Hammonds cannot pay the fines to the BLM, they will be forced to sell the ranch to the BLM or face further prosecution.

[TGS]

I think the sentencing is beyond ridiculous and quantifying my statement with the fact that I don't know much about the case; I know for a fact that starting controlled fires is a time honored method of dealing with unwanted plants and species.

There's not a doubt in my mind that there is two sides to this story and I have a hard time believing the ranchers-slaughtering-deer-just for-fun charge.


Ranchers-slaughtering-deer-just-for-fun or not, they were intentionally putting peoples' lives at risk.

End of story.

[LittleLebowski]

Ranchers-slaughtering-deer-just-for-fun or not, they were intentionally putting peoples' lives at risk.

End of story.

So, you are saying that these people were intentionally putting other people's lives at risk?

On my family ranch, we do try to use fires to get rid of certain plants, and to bring back the grassland. It's an onerous process and we have no fire protection outside of the neighborhood volunteer force that is fully rancher funded yet we still get to pay full taxes :)

Funny, if this case had been say a NY or NJ district attorney alleging that a gun owner had endangered people and done this and that, I'll bet most of you would be assuming much of the charges were bullshit. However, when it comes to anything with the government and private citizens, private citizens are in the wrong and the prosecutors aren't overstating nor embellishing a thing. The FWS is full of virtuous do-gooders beset on all sides by evil ranchers, hell bent on killing firefighters, destroying natural habitats, and just wanton destruction. That about cover it according to your own ample experience with the BLM, the FWS, and ranches in the West, TGS? My family's only owned the same ranch that we settled in 1890 but I'm sure that the government's version is the unvarnished truth regarding these evil doers and what we've seen in Wyoming with the BLM and FWS were simply figments of our imagination.


https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/burns-3.jpg?w=640

[TGS]

So, you are saying that these people were intentionally putting other people's lives at risk?

On my family ranch, we do try to use fires to get rid of certain plants, and to bring back the grassland. It's an onerous process and we have no fire protection outside of the neighborhood volunteer force that is fully rancher funded yet we still get to pay full taxes :)

Funny, if this case had been say a NY or NJ district attorney alleging that a gun owner had endangered people and done this and that, I'll bet most of you would be assuming much of the charges were bullshit. However, when it comes to anything with the government and private citizens, private citizens are in the wrong and the prosecutors aren't overstating nor embellishing a thing. The FWS is full of virtuous do-gooders beset on all sides by evil ranchers, hell bent on killing firefighters, destroying natural habitats, and just wanton destruction. That about cover it according to your own ample experience with the BLM, the FWS, and ranches in the West, TGS? My family's only owned the same ranch that we settled in 1890 but I'm sure that the government's version is the unvarnished truth regarding these evil doers and what we've seen in Wyoming with the BLM and FWS were simply figments of our imagination.


1) That's all very nice and all, but has nothing to do with the fact that a judge presided over the trial and found the evidence to be admissible, and 12 of their peers found them guilty.

2) As for ranching and fires, I grew up in farmland with yearly controlled burns and where the fire response for farmland fires was the farmers and any available friends. You're not speaking to someone as dumb on the issue as you think you are, and in the end the ad hominem attack doesn't matter anyways (refer back to point 1).

[HCM]

I think the sentencing is beyond ridiculous and quantifying my statement with the fact that I don't know much about the case;

I know for a fact that starting controlled fires is a time honored method of dealing with unwanted plants and species. Yes it is. No argument about that. But in the second incident, 1) it was NOT a controlled burn - there were no controls in place, and 2) they intentionally set fires behind and around the firefighters to threaten / intimidate them.

I have a hard time believing the ranchers-slaughtering-deer-just for-fun charge. That was the first incident - it sounds strange to me as well and I could give them the benefit of the doubt regarding this incident - my issue is with the second incident a few years later where they deleiberately set multiple fires behind and around the firefighters without notice, threatened the firefighters and then set additiona fires behind and around the firefighters



I agree the evidence regarding the first incident is questionable as was connecting the first and second incidents, years apart as a conspiracy.

However, the evidence in the second incident is clear as was the fact the Hammonds actions in the second incident were serious crimes which placed multiple peoples lives in danger.

The Hammonds were convicted via a jury trial. Their attorney did his job and argued for a reduced sentence rather than the mandatory minimum. The Judge agreed and sentenced them to 3 months and 1 year respectively rather than the 5 year mandatory minumum. It is routine for both sides to appeal both convictions and sentencing decisons. The U.S. Attorney's office appealed the judge's sentencing decison to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (9thCCA). Years long litigation and appeals are common in the 9thCCA, which is also a notoriously liberal CCA. The 9thCCA ultimately ruled the trial Judge's sentencing decison finding the mandatory minumum sentnce unconstitutional. Basicaly one court ruled in their favor and the higher court did not. This is the system in action, the worst system, except for all the others.

This is similar to the situation where the West Texas Border Patrol Agents were sentenced to 10 year mandory minumums for "crimes of violence while armed with firearms" because they had their government issued duty weapons. The issues with mandatory minimum sentences are a matter congress needs to address via changing the statutes. Given Hammond Senior's age executive clemency, like that recently excercised for many crack cocaine offenders would also be appropriate but I guess he is not in the appropriate demographic.

[LittleLebowski]

1) That's all very nice and all, but has nothing to do with the fact that a judge presided over the trial and found the evidence to be admissible, and 12 of their peers found them guilty.

2) As for ranching and fires, I grew up in farmland with yearly controlled burns and where the fire response for farmland fires was the farmers and any available friends. You're not speaking to someone as dumb on the issue as you think you are, and in the end the ad hominem attack doesn't matter anyways (refer back to point 1).

Roger that, you know all about the controlled burns in the West, how they relate to grasses valued for ranching, what impact they have on local and invasive species, and also know and trust the BLM and FWS as altruistic organizations ran by saints. My express personal experience and that of one other guy in this thread are thereby negated. I'll see you elsewhere on the forum.

[TGS]

Roger that, you know all about the controlled burns in the West, how they relate to grasses valued for ranching, what impact they have on local and invasive species, and also know and trust the BLM and FWS as altruistic organizations ran by saints. My express personal experience and that of one other guy in this thread are thereby negated. I'll see you elsewhere on the forum.

Again....


1) That's all very nice and all, but has nothing to do with the fact that a judge presided over the trial and found the evidence to be admissible, and 12 of their peers found them guilty.

The reductio ad absurdum, strawman, and red herrings are beneath you, as well.

[Cookie Monster]

Burning for noxious weeds is fine and well accepted practice. Backfiring free-lance style while there are firefighters conducting initial attack is unacceptable at best and a way to get firefighters killed. We lose too many wildland firefighters every year.

We'll agree to disagree and I am sure there is plenty of detail that we are missing. I don't view Federal Land Management Agencies as the boogie man, sure they mess up but overall do great under appreciated work with minimal funding and limited oersonnel.

Through our experiences we view the world differently which is fine.

[Edwin]

Y'all Qaeda strikes again.

[Chance]

The group is now reporting their ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35225701):


Those occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge centre in Burns say they plan to stay for years and may use violence if police try to evict them. While the ranchers' case has served as a rallying cry, the group says their ultimate goal is to turn over the property to local authorities so that it can be used free of federal oversight.

They've placed "marksmen" in surrounding fire towers, because nothing scares HRT like a deer hunter in a stand. :rolleyes:

5291

ETA: And someone has managed to wiggle in racist overtones. From the linked article:


...[A]uthorities are monitoring the takeover from a distance but avoiding provoking the group with any signs of force. However the strategy has drawn criticism, saying the restrained response is because the occupiers are white.

[Suvorov]

Still trying to wrap my head around this one. Sipsey Street has some good commentary. (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/01/from-bob-wright-why-bunkerville-was-so.html)

Whatever the direction it goes down, I just can't help but marvel at the timing as POTUS is about to launch his "legacy offensive" and redefine the powers of the Executive Branch.....

[Gadfly]

Obama wants to show the dangers of "assault rifles", this may play right into his executive orders plan. But I have yet to see any rifles on TV,

They're not a real threat to anyone out in the middle of nowhere, so I can see simply ignoring them. But by ignoring them, you encourage more of this behavior. By letting Cliven Bundy get away with his bullshit last year, you have embolden the movement pull more shenanigans this year.

[PNWTO]

They're not a real threat to anyone out in the middle of nowhere, so I can see simply ignoring them. But by ignoring them, you encourage more of this behavior. By letting Cliven Bundy get away with his bullshit last year, you have embolden the movement pull more shenanigans this year.

Exactly, prune it now and early. Only a matter of time before this approach gets more metropolitan. These folks are from the same stock of that one dude that said he was going to perform a citizen's arrest on a federal judge.

[SamAdams]

Exactly, prune it now and early. Only a matter of time before this approach gets more metropolitan. These folks are from the same stock of that one dude that said he was going to perform a citizen's arrest on a federal judge.

Yes . . . it's the domino theory applied domestically. That was so accurate and successful in Indo-China. :p

What's puzzling is why the actions that lead to riotous damage of cities & people actually being harmed, after recent police involved shootings - don't get quite the same media & Whitehouse spin.

And isn't there a lot of empty buildings & nothing where this is taking place ?

The people involved said theyll peacefully comply.

The other guys sit out in the woods till they get bored or the food & beer runs out.

All go home, no one gets hurt, & the dominoes don't fall, afterall.

What would Sheriff Andy have done ?

[HCM]

The Hammonds have disavowed the Bundy Militia and are complying with the re-sentencing. This doesn't seem to really be about the Hammonds so you can't blame them for the Bundy Militia takeover.

The Bundys are itching for attention and possibly a real confrontation. The question is which ? Are they like the Open Carry crowd? Did the Bundys just really liked the attention they got a while back and want or need more or are they true believers?

Either way I think their easy win at the Bundy ranch swelled their egos and encouraged them.

As for the Bundy Militia, the fact none of these guys have to go to work and can spend their days bumping beer bellies tells me pretty much all I need to know about them.

What is most telling to me is they have apparently brought their kids as shields thinking either A) the feds won't risk hurting kids or worse, B) this will be the next Ruby Ridge. ANY person who would willingly bring their kids into this is a jackass at best.

[dbateman]

I don't know a whole lot about this, but I do know I'm not buying the poaching story.

[GardoneVT]

Cliven Bundy's game is power. Every minute of TV airtime helps him and hurts the public.

Option one: the Feds raid him and are successful. He smiles for the cameras as his supporters prop up an undersevred reputation as a "Martyr for Freedom". James Yeager will make a commentary video which gets his CCW suspended again.

Option two. The Feds raid and are unsuccessful, or innocents are hurt in the process of a successful capture. Cliven Bundy beats his chest because he defied the Federal Government and he gets more notoriety and followers. James Yeager makes an incendiary video proclaiming his flock should move to the Bundy States of America, and his CCW permit is suspended.

Option three: we wait until Mid-January, at which point Bundy shuts up and ends his petulant standoff for lack of heating oil and hot chocolate. James Yeagers CCW permit remains undisturbed along with the civic peace of the country.

[PNWTO]

Cliven Bundy's game is power. Every minute of TV airtime helps him and hurts the public.

Option one: the Feds raid him and are successful. He smiles for the cameras as his supporters prop up an undersevred reputation as a "Martyr for Freedom". James Yeager will make a commentary video which gets his CCW suspended again.

Option two. The Feds raid and are unsuccessful, or innocents are hurt in the process of a successful capture. Cliven Bundy beats his chest because he defied the Federal Government and he gets more notoriety and followers. James Yeager makes an incendiary video proclaiming his flock should move to the Bundy States of America, and his CCW permit is suspended.

Option three: we wait until Mid-January, at which point Bundy shuts up and ends his petulant standoff for lack of heating oil and hot chocolate. James Yeagers CCW permit remains undisturbed along with the civic peace of the country.

So what we need to do... is set up Cliven vs Yeager. Maybe another duel is in order.

[Edwin]

I never thought I'd see a right wing armed insurrection where conservatives are dissatisfied that government handouts are not sufficient.

I guess they got tired of all the years of crying wolf of socialism taking over so they made it happen.

[Dagga Boy]

So what we need to do... is set up Cliven vs Yeager. Maybe another duel is in order.

Cliven vs. Yeager? I figured Yeager is already there with them.

[PNWTO]

Cliven vs. Yeager? I figured Yeager is already there with them.

I was dumb enough to look at Yeagermeisters YouTube, he has a video explaining why he isn't attending. I didn't watch it.

[Chance]

I was dumb enough to look at Yeagermeisters YouTube, he has a video explaining why he isn't attending. I didn't watch it.

...And you're not joking. #headdesk

[Totem Polar]

Getting back to Ruby Ridge and BLM space to destroyers, the guy who actually fired the first shots at Ruby Ridge (Art Roderick, at the dog) is now a CNN talking head who's been comparing these guys favorably to all the rioting BLMers, noting that they are out on the sticks and nothing's getting busted up. His advice: leave them alone. And that guy would know how the alternative looks in hindsight.

[Edwin]

Ha, even the Onion and the Taiwanese are now making fun of these Spoiled Bratriots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbjo0MVIxHg

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/what-you-need-know-about-oregon-militia-standoff-52111

[Gadfly]

I have to admit, this made me laugh. The image of FBI/connect 4 was just perfect.

And "yee'hawdy" for jihadi... Good stuff.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/05/77af400c31eb0fabd4b96109f944a1b0.jpg

(Note: Most of the FBI guys I worked with were good, hard working folks. Their managers? Not so much.)

[Chance]

And "yee'hawdy" for jihadi... Good stuff.

Round's on me for whoever came up with that. That's what I'm going to start calling these insurrectionist wannabes.

[SamAdams]

More than half the state of Oregon is owned by the federal government. (How did that happen, anyway?) Get outta your pick-up to take a leak, and the odds are pretty good you're 'invading' federal property.

Maybe the 'occupation' of nothing/nowhere should be viewd with a little perspective ? Just saying.

[NETim]

It all depends on the cause:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/30/as-college-sophomore-eric-holder-participated-in-armed-takeover-of-former-columbia-university-rotc-office/

[PPGMD]

Honestly this whole thing is a cluster frak.

Do the ranchers protesting have a point? Yes, through government purchasing the Feds have been trying to eliminate the ranchers in that area.

But the liberal media is spinning this into "See the riot cops don't respond to white people protests," never mind the fact that protests by these type of groups rarely turn violent (despite the presence of weapons), and little damage (including littering) is done.

[Skeeter]

Here's a long and interesting article from the ranchers point of view: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

No idea whether how accurate the article is, but it paints a picture of fed bureaucrats abusing power to get their land over many years. According to the article they resorted to anti-terrorism laws to get convictions on the fires.


Steven Hammond openly maintains his testimony that he started the backfire to save the winter grass from being destroyed and the backfire ended up working so well it put out the fire altogether.

[HCM]

Here's a long and interesting article from the ranchers point of view: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

No idea whether how accurate the article is, but it paints a picture of fed bureaucrats abusing power to get their land over many years. According to the article they resorted to anti-terrorism laws to get convictions on the fires.

No doubt there is a progressive left / environmentalist element in some of the land management agencies who think their mission is to eliminate ranching, mining and logging. However, Arson is included in federal anti terror laws due to things like church burning and Klan cross burning. There are no black helicopter conspiracies here.

Regarding the second fire, Cookie Monster summed it up perfectly:


Burning for noxious weeds is fine and well accepted practice. Backfiring free-lance style while there are firefighters conducting initial attack is unacceptable at best and a way to get firefighters killed. We lose too many wildland firefighters every year.

[Skeeter]

No doubt there is a progressive left / environmentalist element in some of the land management agencies who think their mission is to eliminate ranching, mining and logging. However, Arson is included in federal anti terror laws due to things like church burning and Klan cross burning. There are no black helicopter conspiracies here.

Never said this was a black helicopter conspiracy, but I do question calling it terrorism. Here's another article I just found in the Washington post that goes into the fires: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wpa/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/)

[HCM]

Never said this was a black helicopter conspiracy, but I do question calling it terrorism. Here's another article I just found in the Washington post that goes into the fires: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wpa/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/)

Everything covered under federal statues such as ADEPA (Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act) is not terrorism. There is no seperate federal arson statute for terrorism. If you read indictment linked earlier in the thread the prosecutors did not aledge terrorism - " just" arson on Federal property endangering the lives of the firefighters. However, due to the title of the statute, some are spinning this as a "terrorism" prosecution when it is not. The only people calling this "terrorism" are the infowars /tin foil / bundy militia people etc.

Speaking of - as noted earlier what the Bundys are doing has NOTHING to do with the Hammonds.
The Hammonds have disavowed the Bundys and their actions.

The Bundys are simply opportunists.

[Cookie Monster]

I find this article interesting:

http://www.hcn.org/issues/20/582

[Skeeter]

Everything covered under federal statues such as ADEPA (Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act) is not terrorism. If you read indictment linked earlier in the thread the prosecutors did not aledge terrorism - " just" arson endangering the lives of the firefighters. However, due to the title of the statute, some are spinning this as a "terrorism" prosecution when it is not. The only people calling this "terrorism" are the infowars /tin foil / bundy militia people etc.

Written by the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/

The ranching community seems caught in the crossfire. Sure, the Hammonds broke the law. But did they need to be prosecuted as terrorists? Then again, even if they are technically terrorists, do they need the likes of the Bundys — anti-government agitators — speaking on their behalf?

Let's stop the pissing contest. One doesn't have to wear a tin foil hat to wonder if they were over-changed.

[HCM]

Written by the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/04/the-mysterious-fires-that-led-to-the-bundy-clans-oregon-standoff/


Let's stop the pissing contest. One doesn't have to wear a tin foil hat to wonder if they were over-changed.

What other statute would you charge them with ? There is only one federal arson statute and what the Hammonds did was arson it was not a controlled burn.

Also, I don't know how much you know about fighting brush fires / wildfires but suffice to say the Hammonds are lucky they weren't shot while they were setting those additional back fires. I think you SERIOUSLY under estimate the danger they placed those firefighters in.

Even if you are right, and the Hammonds were over charged, it has nothing to do with what the Bundys are doing. Remember these Bumdy "heros" ?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-killed-las-vegas-ambush-dead/story?id=24049878

[TGS]

Let's stop the pissing contest. One doesn't have to wear a tin foil hat to wonder if they were over-changed.

Try actually reading the substance of what HCM wrote:


Everything covered under federal statues such as ADEPA (Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act) is not terrorism. There is no seperate federal arson statute for terrorism. If you read indictment linked earlier in the thread the prosecutors did not aledge terrorism - " just" arson on Federal property endangering the lives of the firefighters. However, due to the title of the statute, some are spinning this as a "terrorism" prosecution when it is not.

As HCM said......if they're being over-charged, then what other arson statute are you going to charge them with?

[Skeeter]

What other statute would you charge them with ? There is only one federal arson statute and what the Hammonds did was arson it was not a controlled burn.

Also, I don't know how much you know about fighting brush fires / wildfires but suffice to say the Hammonds are lucky they weren't shot while they were setting those additional back fires. I think you SERIOUSLY under estimate the danger they placed those firefighters in.

Even if you are right, and the Hammonds were over charged, it has nothing to do with what the Bundys are doing. Remember these Bumdy "heros" ?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-killed-las-vegas-ambush-dead/story?id=24049878

As you said, the Bundy's are just opportunists -- I agree. FWIW, I know nothing about fighting brush fires, other than the basics that go along with occasionally getting a burn permit in Oregon. No idea if the danger was exaggerated or under-estimated. Don't know what the Hammond's could have been charged with; Maybe just plain arson or destruction of public property? Like I said, I'm just wondering (like the Washington Post) if they were over charged.

[Cookie Monster]

A good break down of the history of the fires the Hammonds set:

http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/05/the-timeline-for-the-oregon-rancher-arsonists/#more-45622

The author has 30 years experience in Federal Land Management and Fire Fighting, so take it how you view the world.

[HCM]

As you said, the Bundy's are just opportunists -- I agree. FWIW, I know nothing about fighting brush fires, other than the basics that go along with occasionally getting a burn permit in Oregon. No idea if the danger was exaggerated or under-estimated. Don't know what the Hammond's could have been charged with; Maybe just plain arson or destruction of public property? Like I said, I'm just wondering (like the Washington Post) if they were over charged.

If it was only about destruction of property and the monetary cost of fighting the fires I would agree. However, the indictment makes it clear after the intial Fire and telling the Fire fighters to clear out, they set at least two additional backfires behind and around the firefighters without notice. This was reckless endangerment at best. At worst, they set those subsequent fires to box in the fire fighters and force them to leave. Between fires is the worst / most dangerous place to be in wildfire fighting. It is like telling some one to clear out off public land and firing warning shots in the dirt around them. Sure you didn't actually hit them with a bullet but ....,

[TGS]

Don't know what the Hammond's could have been charged with;

This is going to sound like a totally dick thing to say, but it's true: maybe the above is a clue...


Maybe just plain arson or destruction of public property? Like I said, I'm just wondering (like the Washington Post) if they were over charged.

Again.....what other arson charge? As HCM said, they were charged with the only arson charge there is....or at least either of us know about. 18 USC 844.

How much is it going to take to pound the media sensationalism and mischaracterization out of anyone's head?

[Skeeter]

If it was only about destruction of property and the monetary cost of fighting the fires I would agree. However, the indictment makes it clear after the intial Fire and telling the Fire fighters to clear out, they set at least two additional backfires behind and around the firefighters without notice. This was reckless endangerment at best. At worst, they set those subsequent fires to box in the fire fighters and force them to leave. Between fires is the worst / most dangerous place to be in wildfire fighting. It is like telling some one to clear out off public land and firing warning shots in the dirt around them. Sure you didn't actually hit them with a bullet but ....,

You're making a good argument that prosecutors did the right thing, given the indictment is factually correct. Totally missed that in the news and articles.

[Skeeter]

Again.....what other arson charge? As HCM said, they were charged with the only arson charge there is....or at least either of us know about. 18 USC 844.

How much is it going to take to pound the media sensationalism and mischaracterization out of anyone's head?

Yep, I'm pretty uneducated on legal stuff, and not real fast to figure it out either. I think I understand it now, feel free to correct me: The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA) modified 18 USC 844, including minimum sentencing. AEDPA is not a different law one could be charged under, as it sounded like from reading and watching the news. The first Judge didn't agree with the minimum sentencing, the prosecution appealed and the minimum sentencing was upheld.

[BehindBlueI's]

Yep, I'm pretty uneducated on legal stuff, and not real fast to figure it out either. I think I understand it now, feel free to correct me: The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA) modified 18 USC 844, including minimum sentencing. AEDPA is not a different law one could be charged under, as it sounded like from reading and watching the news. The first Judge didn't agree with the minimum sentencing, the prosecution appealed and the minimum sentencing was upheld.

To really simplify it, think of the name of an act as a commercial. It's marketing, plain and simple, and has ZERO impact on the content of the bill or the resulting law. They can be named for sponsors, they can be named for victims, or they can be named for marketing reasons.

I can name an act "The Caring for the Homeless Act" and the language inside can be nothing about the homeless. Then when the other party votes against it, I can paint them as uncaring bastards who hate the homeless. Nevermind the act called for $50 for homeless shelters and $5 million for neutering wild porpoises.

[HCM]

Yep, I'm pretty uneducated on legal stuff, and not real fast to figure it out either. I think I understand it now, feel free to correct me: The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA) modified 18 USC 844, including minimum sentencing. AEDPA is not a different law one could be charged under, as it sounded like from reading and watching the news. The first Judge didn't agree with the minimum sentencing, the prosecution appealed and the minimum sentencing was upheld.

Yes.

There aren't multiple types of arson i.e. "regular Arson" and "terrorist / hate crime etc Arson" in the federal system. There is just 18 USC 844, which already existed and was amended by ADEPA to carry a 5 years mandatory minimum.

I can't blame the Hammonds or their Attorney for attempting to argue the sentence but they lost on appeal. To their credit the Hammonds are taking responsibility and owning their actions.

Like other types of zero tolerance policies, mandatory minimums were created in response to one set of issues but created new issues. Ultimately it is an issue for Congress.

[HCM]

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20977330,00.html


Oregon Militiamen Asking for Snacks, Socks, Money on Facebook


It's hard to mount on occupation on an empty stomach.

Despite claims that the armed militiamen who are occupying a U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service building in Oregon are set up for a lengthy stay, Facebook posts from some of the men and their supporters are asking for supplies, including "snacks and energy drinks."


5311

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20977330,00.html


Oregon Militiamen Asking for Snacks, Socks, Money on Facebook



5311

Better send coloring books, too. Probably getting pretty boring.

[GardoneVT]

Given what these guys look like, maybe we should send them a treadmill and kale instead.

[jon volk]

Seems relevant.

5313

[Edwin]

I sent this Cattle Caliphate a bag of dicks and a glitter bomb.

http://dicksbymail.com/
https://shipyourenemiesglitter.com/

[PPGMD]

On Gawker they posted the box they sent, and commented about the strange address. It is clear the author has never known anyone in a rural area.

[BehindBlueI's]

I sent this Cattle Caliphate a bag of dicks and a glitter bomb.

http://dicksbymail.com/
https://shipyourenemiesglitter.com/

https://shipyourenemiesglitter.com/product/The-Do-Not-Eat-Cupcake-39

Heh.

[Chance]

I sent this Cattle Caliphate a bag of dicks and a glitter bomb.

http://dicksbymail.com/
https://shipyourenemiesglitter.com/

That's an actual glitter bomb? That doesn't seem safe. Get that stuff in your eyes, and it burns.

[BehindBlueI's]

That's an actual glitter bomb? That doesn't seem safe. Get that stuff in your eyes, and it burns.

It's way lamer than the name implies. I watched it on youtube and it's just loose glitter in the folded up letter so when you open it the glitter dumps in your lap.

[Gadfly]

Overthrowing the Gov gets...lonely...

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/06/0f94fa9195e8ef4a721e33fe00158013.jpg

[HCM]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/09/winchester-usa-forged-ammunition/

Stolen valor: The militiaman bodyguard of ranchers Cliven and Ammon Bundy is falsely posing as a US Marine who served in Afghanistan and Iraq


Brian Cavalier, 44, the personal bodyguard of Cliven and Ammon Bundy, openly boasted that he is retired Marine
But US Marine Corps records prove the big-bellied braggart never served and is in fact a tattoo artist with a long rap sheet for DUI
Cavalier is a key figure in the armed militia takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon orchestrated by the Bundys
He wears military style garb including a shemagh scarf often worn by soldiers serving in the Middle East, and has the code name 'Fluffy Unicorn'
'That's unfortunate,' Cavalier said when Daily Mail Online confronted him over his Marine fabrication

[Dagga Boy]

You have no idea how shocked I am that the guy with call sign "Fluffy Unicorn" is a poser who forgot to show up at boot camp.

I was going to make a joke about a Serpa, an XD.....and I looked at a picture and sure enough...:confused:.

I don't know why Yeager isn't there, but they are obviously in need of him......

[GardoneVT]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/09/winchester-usa-forged-ammunition/

Stolen valor: The militiaman bodyguard of ranchers Cliven and Ammon Bundy is falsely posing as a US Marine who served in Afghanistan and Iraq

Paging Cory07Ink....

[Trooper224]

"Fluffy Unicorn requesting a fly-by on the rainbow bridge." "Negative Fluffy, the pattern is full."

[Luke]

The link takes me to steel case ammo review? I wanna see fluffy :(

[HCM]

The link takes me to steel case ammo review? I wanna see fluffy :(

Rub the Buhdda tattoo on his belly for luck

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3387117/Stolen-valor-Militiaman-bodyguard-ranchers-Cliven-Ammon-Bundy-posing-retired-Marine-served-Afghanistan-Iraq-boost-combat-credentials.html

[PPGMD]

I spent sometime talking with someone in rural Oregon tonight, and this came up (among a dozen different topics). He shares the same conclusion that I do, both parties are wrong. These rural counties have genuine problems with the Feds, and their attempts to push ranchers not just from grazing on public land, but to buy up most of the land and turn it into a nature preserve. But the Hammonds did some things incorrectly, but not to the point that they deserve to serve a five year sentence on terrorism charges.

Also it seems that past missteps (Ruby Ridge/Waco) have stayed the government's hands, and they seem content to wait this out. The Feds are allowing supplies to go in unimpeded with one major exception, no propane. Eventually these people are going to get tired of sitting out in the cold eastern Oregon winter. If the Feds are smart they will take everyone's information down, and quietly charge people for the crimes after they've gone home and they don't have group behind them. And hopefully the charge will match the crime, which wasn't a big one to be honest.

[HCM]

ISiS has these guys beat

5379

[Gadfly]

If this article is true, and it is within the realm of probability, they are crumbling fast. Too much crazy in one room with no real chain of command or defined goals... Lots of guns and testosterone, yet no brains, organization, or direction....

Oh, they ran "Buddha" off when they found out he lied about his Marine service.

http://usuncut.com/news/oregon-militia-descends-into-fist-fights-chaos/


http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/09/03ef7ff0881371bef523143ace70476d.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[idahojess]

A new group showed up on Saturday and walked around with AR-15's. Not particularly great visuals -- particularly for those of us who watch Oregon and Washington state passing new gun laws.

It does look like the local Sheriff (who has been joined by other neighboring Oregon sheriffs) has been doing a really good job of meeting with the groups. I really hope this doesn't turn crappy. Fortunately, it looks like it's snowing pretty hard down there.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/arrival_of_rifle-toting_patrio.html#incart_big-photo

[Trooper224]

Might be gettin' all Lord of the Flies up on the refuge!

[BehindBlueI's]

A new group showed up on Saturday and walked around with AR-15's. Not particularly great visuals -- particularly for those of us who watch Oregon and Washington state passing new gun laws.

It does look like the local Sheriff (who has been joined by other neighboring Oregon sheriffs) has been doing a really good job of meeting with the groups. I really hope this doesn't turn crappy. Fortunately, it looks like it's snowing pretty hard down there.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/arrival_of_rifle-toting_patrio.html#incart_big-photo

They were asked to leave by the occupiers? That's fantastic. What if another armed group occupied the occupation?

[Dagga Boy]

They were asked to leave by the occupiers? That's fantastic. What if another armed group occupied the occupation?

Or...occupy Wall Street. This is literally Jerry Springer level stuff, all we need to do is add cameras and it would be reality show gold.

[Trooper224]

It looks like the militia feels their stand against tyranny is an exclusive club. Oh well, I'm sure the Three percenters can find a Chipolte somewhere that isn't too crowded.

[BaiHu]

It looks like the militia feels their stand against tyranny is an exclusive club. Oh well, I'm sure the Three percenters can find a Chipolte somewhere that isn't too crowded.
Am I missing something? I thought they gravitated towards Starbucks. Did they run out of them and move on to Chipotle? Next it'll be Target or Walmart? Don't let Todd know if they make a run for Chili's.

[Wondering Beard]

It looks like the militia feels their stand against tyranny is an exclusive club. Oh well, I'm sure the Three percenters can find a Chipolte somewhere that isn't too crowded.

Considering the problems with E coli and the like that Chipotle has been having, we could then have a faster ending to this than anticipated ;)

[BehindBlueI's]

It looks like the militia feels their stand against tyranny is an exclusive club. Oh well, I'm sure the Three percenters can find a Chipolte somewhere that isn't too crowded.

Well, they've already got the patches and everything. If another percent showed up they'd have to redo the logos. Hell, some of them probably have it tattoo'd so that'd be a toughie...

[PPGMD]

What if another armed group occupied the occupation?

That is pretty much what happened based on what I've heard. The Hammonds were just going to do their little protest and the Bundys showed up.

Anyways I hope it ends soon. One of my friends was sent down there to help the Sheriff.

[SamAdams]

U.S. Congressman from Harney County, OR - Greg Walden addresses this matter:

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/01/congressman_greg_walden_addres.html

[Edwin]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/193756/story_image/TMW2016-01-13color.png?1452287749

Tom Tomorrow is on point.

[PPGMD]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/193756/story_image/TMW2016-01-13color.png?1452287749

Tom Tomorrow is on point.

Only if you believe the liberal spin of the take over.

[Chance]

I sent this Cattle Caliphate a bag of dicks and a glitter bomb.

http://dicksbymail.com/
https://shipyourenemiesglitter.com/

Looks like they got your bag of dicks, dude. :D From RawStory.com (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-judge-plans-to-bill-ammon-bundy-up-to-70000-a-day-for-security-costs-to-county/):


They have apparently received some unwanted gifts, such as sex toys, as seen in a Facebook video posted by Jon Ritzheimer, an Arizona veteran who is taking part in the occupation.

“It was really mind-blowing to me that people would actually spend their money (on this),” Ritzheimer said. “This box right here, $17.90 (for shipping). They spend and waste their money on all this hateful stuff to send out here to us and buy this ridiculous stuff. This one was really funny — a ‘bag of dicks.’ Rather than going out and doing good, they just spend all their money on hate and hate.”

He then angrily shoved all the unwanted gifts off a table and onto the floor.

[LorenzoS]

Which one of you guys sent the bag of dicks?
https://www.facebook.com/scrappyphx.rider/videos/469856286535510/

[Peally]

LMAO this is what doodie was born to do. Gotta love it.

[BaiHu]

Well done gentlemen, well done.

[Edwin]

Hooray they got my care package!

[Dagga Boy]

I guess the glitter hasn't arrived yet. Also....sex toys should never be hateful, otherwise....you're doing it wrong or committing a crime.

[jrm]

Maybe they would appreciate these more. http://www.skdtac.com/skd-bag-of-dicks-p/skd.808.htm

[Drang]

Maybe they would appreciate these more. http://www.skdtac.com/skd-bag-of-dicks-p/skd.808.htm

The label on the bag alone is worth the price...

[Tamara]

thisthreaddelivers.jpg

[Edwin]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYpMRYqVAAApvwP.png:large

The perfect companion for the bag of dicks.

[jon volk]

$17.99 to ship a 55gal drum is impressive.

[Chance]

Police have arrested Ammon Bundy, with one killed in operation. No further details yet.

[Drang]

Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy is arrested - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/)

(CNN)[Breaking news update at 10:08 p.m. ET]

One person was killed as authorities arrested a group of people involved with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, the FBI and Oregon State Police said. The deceased was the subject of a federal probable cause arrest, officials said.

[Previous story, published at 9:55 p.m. ET]

Federal authorities arrested Ammon Bundy, the leader of a group of protesters occupying a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, during a traffic stop Tuesday, a law enforcement official told CNN.

[idahojess]

Sounds like it happened while Bundy was traveling to a neighboring County, Grant County to a meeting. It also sounds like there are still occupiers at the refuge.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html#incart_maj-story-1

[Edwin]

I hear Ammon Bundy is occupying a new government building tonight.

[GardoneVT]

I hear Ammon Bundy is occupying a new government building tonight.

One that even has free heat.

[SamAdams]

Now here's a new angle on this story that I just came across -

Is this all about an alleged recent private deal to sell off 20% of US uranium production to the Russians ? Location of that uranium ? Includes same public lands area in Oregon. Those involved in the deal ? the Clintons Maybe there's much more to this then generally reported. Curiouser and curiouser -

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/the-clintons-is-the-oregon-standoff-really-about-uranium/

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/the-clintons-how-putin-grabbed-a-fifth-of-all-us-uranium/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0

https://www.intellihub.com/clinton-foundation-payoffs-promised-hammond-ranch-other-publically-owned-lands-russia/

[Peally]

These morons need to go home.

[HCM]

Now here's a new angle on this story that I just came across -

Is this all about an alleged recent private deal to sell off 20% of US uranium production to the Russians ? Location of that uranium ? Includes same public lands area in Oregon. Those involved in the deal ? the Clintons Maybe there's much more to this then generally reported. Curiouser and curiouser -

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/the-clintons-is-the-oregon-standoff-really-about-uranium/

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/the-clintons-how-putin-grabbed-a-fifth-of-all-us-uranium/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0

https://www.intellihub.com/clinton-foundation-payoffs-promised-hammond-ranch-other-publically-owned-lands-russia/

No dude. Just no.

No doubt the clintons are the definition of corruption but there is no grand tin foil hat conspiracy. You simply have east coast liberal "environmentalist" minded bureaucrats Who want to convert as much undeveloped private land to public control as possible. They further wish to restrict or eliminate any use of public lands, commercial or recreational, in order to "preserve them in their natural state "



While the BLM may not be right, the Bundys are definitely wrong.

[Chance]

The remaining hold outs are leaving, as Ammon Bundy tells them to go home. From Oregon Live (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/occupiers_begin_to_trickle_out.html):


The ragtag remnants of the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge started to give up their ground Wednesday after calls from supporters, Congress members and even their arrested leader to abandon the 26-day takeover.

Confusion reigned at the windswept bird sanctuary that has served as the hub of an anti-government protest that captivated the country 30 miles outside this high desert town.

Late in the day, word came that an original occupier who took on the leadership role and some others were surrendering or leaving.

The moves appeared to follow a message sent by Ammon Bundy to the protesters through his attorney: "Stand down and go home."

[GardoneVT]

The remaining hold outs are leaving, as Ammon Bundy tells them to go home. From Oregon Live (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/occupiers_begin_to_trickle_out.html):

"Bundy Fought The Law, and The Law Won......"

[StraitR]

I wonder what the odds Vegas had on this thing ending with a single Cletus getting shot dead in the streets? Nobody bothered to look last week at SHOT?

[Trooper224]

http://images.memes.com/meme/632498

[SamAdams]

No dude. Just no.

No doubt the clintons are the definition of corruption but there is no grand tin foil hat conspiracy. . .

Beats me, maybe you're right. I have no idea. I'm not an insider at the Clinton foundation and not a corporate officer in that uranium mining company.

[Tamara]

I'm not an insider at the Clinton foundation and not a corporate officer in that uranium mining company.

Neither are any of the crackpots who wrote the linked articles.

[Edwin]

http://youtu.be/gjl1hefqqWI

[PPGMD]

Well the accounts that he had his hands up weren't wrong. Except they didn't mention that he reached into his jacket.

[StraitR]

Admittedly, I haven't read too much about it. I didn't realize he had stopped at one point, then initiated a pursuit. He definitely went digging in those pockets, furiously I might add. It looked like he clipped someone right as he went off the road. That individual went hobbling back in retreat. I wish him/her a speedy recovery.

[HCM]

Admittedly, I haven't read too much about it. I didn't realize he had stopped at one point, then initiated a pursuit. He definitely went digging in those pockets, furiously I might add. It looked like he clipped someone right as he went off the road. That individual went hobbling back in retreat. I wish him/her a speedy recovery.

Several news sources are reporting Finicum did, in fact, have a loaded 9mm handgun in the pocket he reached into twice.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-shows-video-of-tuesday-shooting-of-occupier/ar-BBoPAl8?ocid=sf

[SamAdams]

Neither are any of the crackpots who wrote the linked articles.

Yes, you're right. But, investigative reporters have a job & that doesn't usually involve only investigating other reporters, does it ?
The Rappoport and NYT articles are well written, the Intellihub article is a bit over the top.

That said, when an ad hominem attack is employed - 'crack pot', 'tin foil hat', 'conspiracy theorists', etc it serves to shut down further inquiry. And that can get in the way of finding out the truth, especially if that may run counter to held opinions . It often doesn't even require a 'Grand Conspiracy' to explain things. Many times, there's a dollar sign involved.

Maybe the whole story is that a group of 'nutty', or at least foolishly misguided, people occupied a building out in the middle of nowhere and were arrested, with one of them killed. - And just maybe there's more to the story. IMO there's not enough evidence to say at this point.

[peterb]

Well the accounts that he had his hands up weren't wrong. Except they didn't mention that he reached into his jacket.

I do feel sorry for his family and those who loved him, but he made the choices that lead to his death.

It's interesting that neither of the eyewitness accounts broadcast yesterday("he was on his knees with his hands up" and "he charged them") is fully supported by the video, but you can see where both came from. Good lesson in the reliability of eyewitness testimony.

I was surprised to see the officer come out of the treeline well back from the road. I assume that's SOP for a roadblock in case someone tries to run away?

[GJM]

Did it look like the LE guy that shot him, did it with the pistol in just one hand?

[JHC]

Did it look like the LE guy that shot him, did it with the pistol in just one hand?

I thought that a long gun. I surmise he was in an overwatch position and then moved out to effect apprehension when the subjects hands were up. Then the subject goes for the draw (I'm hearing coat pocketed gun; there are pics of him on line sporting a shoulder holster with gun under left armpit)

[voodoo_man]

"keep your hands up"

"ok"

*reaches for pistol*

"put your hands up!"

"ok!"

*guy from left of screen emerges from the woods*

"the fuck I...ohhh shhheeeeiiittt"

*reaches for pistol*

*pew pew pew*

Good shoot, next time though, stay away from the CARS YOU ARE USING AS A BARRICADE AGAINST A BIG ASS TRUCK.

[SamAdams]

Where did those guys think they were going to run ? They were out in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't like they were going to get lost in the crowd or something.


If they had a legitimate cause, they only hurt it by their rash actions.

[JHC]

Where did those guys think they were going to run ? They were out in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't like they were going to get lost in the crowd or something.


If they had a legitimate cause, they only hurt it by their rash actions.

Yeah LaVoy got to "sing his death song" that's about it.

[Peally]

This is like watching the white trash version of black lives matter.

The retard runs from the FBI, stops, runs again, crashes, puts his hands up and tries to draw a pistol in an incredibly obvious way twice at officers. He was pretty much begging for that dirt (snow?) nap.

[HopetonBrown]

I see the conspiracy theorists are saying he was shot by the officer with the carbine while his hands were raised, and was then just reaching for his wound.

[scw2]

next time though, stay away from the CARS YOU ARE USING AS A BARRICADE AGAINST A BIG ASS TRUCK.

Now that you mention it, that doesn't really seem smart but that's how every TV show or movie portrays roadblocks. What is the recommended operating procedure? Standing off the side of the road far away from the roadblock?

[Chance]

Where did those guys think they were going to run ? They were out in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't like they were going to get lost in the crowd or something.


Strategic masterminds they are not. After all, they not only left their heavily defended position, they announced both when and where they were going.

[SamAdams]

Strategic masterminds they are not. After all, they not only left their heavily defended position, they announced both when and where they were going.

It was FUBAR from the beginning when they decided to 'occupy' a building in the middle of nowhere only accessible by a limited number of roads. Apparently, they never imagined that those roads would be monitored & blocked. The word is that they were going to a town meeting to present their arguments. If they had done that in the beginning & skipped the 'occupation' b.s., they wouldn't have put themselves in such a position.

[JHC]

It's like this guy made this his job or something. Working the Utah ranching community on the same topic last Fall.

http://suindependent.com/courting-anarchy-lavoy-finicum/

[StraitR]

Several news sources are reporting Finicum did, in fact, have a loaded 9mm handgun in the pocket he reached into twice.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-shows-video-of-tuesday-shooting-of-occupier/ar-BBoPAl8?ocid=sf

Welp, that's settled, pocket carry sucks.

[HCM]

Welp, that's settled, pocket carry sucks.

In true winter conditions coat pocket carry can be much quicker than accessing your belt gun under your coat. A holster to keep the gun oriented helps. Plus my first impression of the video is Finicum appears to be in panic mode.

[HCM]

"keep your hands up"

"ok"

*reaches for pistol*

"put your hands up!"

"ok!"

*guy from left of screen emerges from the woods*

"the fuck I...ohhh shhheeeeiiittt"

*reaches for pistol*

*pew pew pew*

Good shoot, next time though, stay away from the CARS YOU ARE USING AS A BARRICADE AGAINST A BIG ASS TRUCK.

Yes. That FBI Agent almost got smooshed.

[HCM]

So my next question is will the Bundys be charged with Felony Murder since their criminal activity / conspiracy resulted in the Death off Mr. Finicum ?

If so, will it be in State Court or Federal court ?

[Joe in PNG]

It was FUBAR from the beginning when they decided to 'occupy' a building in the middle of nowhere only accessible by a limited number of roads. Apparently, they never imagined that those roads would be monitored & blocked. The word is that they were going to a town meeting to present their arguments. If they had done that in the beginning & skipped the 'occupation' b.s., they wouldn't have put themselves in such a position.

A bunch of attention whores LARPing as some kind of freedom fighters, complete with phony military backgrounds. Idiots.

[HCM]

It's like this guy made this his job or something. Working the Utah ranching community on the same topic last Fall.

http://suindependent.com/courting-anarchy-lavoy-finicum/

"Self interested Anarchists" is a perfect summary of the Bundys and their supporters.

[JHC]

"Self interested Anarchists" is a perfect summary of the Bundys and their supporters.

Reality show in the works? ;)

[StraitR]

In true winter conditions coat pocket carry can be much quicker than accessing your belt gun under your coat. A holster to keep the gun oriented helps. Plus my first impression of the video is Finicum appears to be in panic mode.

I understand, and agree that it can make total sense for the average CCW holder. That being said, given the ongoing standoff and it's players, the decision to shoot it out with G-men was most likely predetermined on an individual level, leaving only the question of resolve. So given the context of this incident, pocket carry appears to be a classic 6p's confirmation.

[BehindBlueI's]

Strategic masterminds they are not. After all, they not only left their heavily defended position, they announced both when and where they were going.

Depends on what their strategy was. I think the HMFIC of this "operation" wanted a "martyr" and when nobody would play their game of "come and get me" they pushed until they had the opportunity.

[Chance]

Depends on what their strategy was. I think the HMFIC of this "operation" wanted a "martyr" and when nobody would play their game of "come and get me" they pushed until they had the opportunity.

Interesting theory. Anything approaching Machiavellian seems a little out of Bundy's league, so far as I can tell. But Finicum was clearly eager, and Bundy was accomplishing nothing where he was, so it's definitely possible.

[Hambo]

Welp, that's settled, pocket carry sucks.

It does when you take on twenty state troopers and FBI agents.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It does when you take on twenty state troopers and FBI agents.

If you take on twenty state troopers and FBI agents, I think life in general must just suck.

[GardoneVT]

Interesting theory. Anything approaching Machiavellian seems a little out of Bundy's league, so far as I can tell. But Finicum was clearly eager, and Bundy was accomplishing nothing where he was, so it's definitely possible.

Unlikely.

Bundy can't exactly build a great following from a jail cell, or a morgue. No one is eagerly awaiting his version of "Letters from an Oregon Holding Facility".

[HCM]

So my next question is will the Bundys be charged with Felony Murder since their criminal activity / conspiracy resulted in the Death off Mr. Finicum ?

If so, will it be in State Court or Federal court ?

Apparently the vehicle Finicum was driving was a government vehicle stolen from the Refuge - another felony .

[BehindBlueI's]

Unlikely.

Bundy can't exactly build a great following from a jail cell, or a morgue. No one is eagerly awaiting his version of "Letters from an Oregon Holding Facility".

Bundy wasn't the "martyr" either. You don't think that looked like suicide by cop? For what purpose? People do not act randomly. Irrationally, yes, but not randomly. Their actions make sense in the little ongoing narrative in their own head. There's other possibilities, including just not wanting to go to prison, but I bet you that little voice that said "you'll be the rallying point for more uprising" spoke up in his head, too. Didn't pan out that way because the general public has viewed this as an armed soap opera and/or an object of ridicule. It's tough to be the seen as the serious freedom fighters you want to be marketed as when you're being inundated with sex toys and lube...

[JAD]

If you take on twenty state troopers and FBI agents, I think life in general must just suck.

Yeah, but only briefly.

[Skeeter]

Bundy wasn't the "martyr" either. You don't think that looked like suicide by cop? For what purpose? People do not act randomly. Irrationally, yes, but not randomly. Their actions make sense in the little ongoing narrative in their own head. There's other possibilities, including just not wanting to go to prison, but I bet you that little voice that said "you'll be the rallying point for more uprising" spoke up in his head, too. Didn't pan out that way because the general public has viewed this as an armed soap opera and/or an object of ridicule. It's tough to be the seen as the serious freedom fighters you want to be marketed as when you're being inundated with sex toys and lube...

Looked like suicide by cop to me as well. I believe this was the same yahoo that was quoted saying he'd rather die than go to prison.

[TGS]

I apologize if this was brought up before.

Here's a new CounterStrike map based on the Oregon incident, for all you gamers (or if you played counterstrike 15 years ago.....)

cs_wildrefuge (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=598715073)

Description:

A group of heavily armed patriots known only as "Vanilla Isis" have decided to launch a rebellion against their tyrannical government! Using their brilliant tactical mind they chose their first target: a mostly unoccupied bird sanctuary and wildlife refuge. After about 2 days of holding this territory from the feds they have unfortunately run out of vital supplies like slim jims,energy drinks and beer. In an act of desperation for more supplies they have taken a couple of orange jumpsuit wearing bird watchers hostage. Now with human lives at stake the feds have been forced to respond.

[BehindBlueI's]

Looked like suicide by cop to me as well. I believe this was the same yahoo that was quoted saying he'd rather die than go to prison.

Yup. The Alex Jones and ilk of the web is already spinning the death exactly like I figured. Martyr, 5 minutes of gunfire into the van, they only fled because he'd already been shot at, etc. I'm waiting for this to be part of a UN sanctioned Jade Helm and he's not really dead, he's in a FEMA camp. There's plenty of folks in the keyboard militias ready to lap it up.

[Skeeter]

Yup. The Alex Jones and ilk of the web is already spinning the death exactly like I figured. Martyr, 5 minutes of gunfire into the van, they only fled because he'd already been shot at, etc. I'm waiting for this to be part of a UN sanctioned Jade Helm and he's not really dead, he's in a FEMA camp. There's plenty of folks in the keyboard militias ready to lap it up.

Had to look up who Alex Jones is, now there's a few minutes wasted... I think video really helps LE with the PR aftermath.

[jh9]

Had to look up who Alex Jones is, now there's a few minutes wasted... I think video really helps LE with the PR aftermath.

I saw an interview with Mike Judge (Beavis & Butthead, Office Space, Idiocracy, King of the Hill) being interviewed by Alex Jones. Judge was billed as "master satirist".

Deep down I prefer to think Jones is doing his bit for lulz and money; he doesn't actually believe it. I don't know much about Jones, and I don't actively seek more information in case that might dispel the illusion.

[JHC]

I saw an interview with Mike Judge (Beavis & Butthead, Office Space, Idiocracy, King of the Hill) being interviewed by Alex Jones. Judge was billed as "master satirist".

Deep down I prefer to think Jones is doing his bit for lulz and money; he doesn't actually believe it. I don't know much about Jones, and I don't actively seek more information in case that might dispel the illusion.

What ever his motive he has scads of minions screaming assassination across FB. Infuriating

[Beendare]

Well now the whole story takes a more intriguing turn....I'm still not sure what to think of this;

It appears this land is one of the locations previously identified as a site for a Uranium mine that is part of the Hillary strategic uranium reserves giveaway to the Russians....US giveaway that is...but Hillary pocketed tens of millions in donations to her foundation. I'm no tin hat guy but there appears to be a smoking gun here...my apologies to the shooting victim for that bad pun.
Seattle times link
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-gained-us-uranium-assets/

The reporter connecting the dots;
http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/oregon-shootout-rooted-in-clinton-uranium-trade/

If this info proves out....this administration AND Hillary will go down in history as the worst in regards to destroying US national interests and the dirtiest on record.

[GardoneVT]

Well now the whole story takes a more intriguing turn....I'm still not sure what to think of this;

It appears this land is one of the locations previously identified as a site for a Uranium mine that is part of the Hillary strategic uranium reserves giveaway to the Russians....US giveaway that is...but Hillary pocketed tens of millions in donations to her foundation. I'm no tin hat guy but there appears to be a smoking gun here...my apologies to the shooting victim for that bad pun.
Seattle times link
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-gained-us-uranium-assets/

The reporter connecting the dots;
http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/oregon-shootout-rooted-in-clinton-uranium-trade/

If this info proves out....this administration AND Hillary will go down in history as the worst in regards to destroying US national interests and the dirtiest on record.

No sale.

The dirt Obama pulled in Chicago is public record and has been since the early '00s. It hasn't affected his political career in the slightest.

[HCM]

Well now the whole story takes a more intriguing turn....I'm still not sure what to think of this;

It appears this land is one of the locations previously identified as a site for a Uranium mine that is part of the Hillary strategic uranium reserves giveaway to the Russians....US giveaway that is...but Hillary pocketed tens of millions in donations to her foundation. I'm no tin hat guy but there appears to be a smoking gun here...my apologies to the shooting victim for that bad pun.
Seattle times link
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-gained-us-uranium-assets/

The reporter connecting the dots;
http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/oregon-shootout-rooted-in-clinton-uranium-trade/

If this info proves out....this administration AND Hillary will go down in history as the worst in regards to destroying US national interests and the dirtiest on record.

I noticed thus is your first post on P-F.

I have no doubt the Clintons are corrupt. I also have no doubt Hillary Clinton made decisions and took actions as Secretary of State which were a against The best interests of the United States. It also would not surprise me to learn she received back door compensation for these actions in the form of donations to the Clinton foundation.

None of that however has any legitimate connection to the Bundys or their recent actions in Oregon.

WND is not a mainstream or really credible news source and I see nothing but speculation and conjecture and the article you linked.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Rather what I see is a sad and desperate attempt by supporters of the Bundys and the so-called patriot or militia movement to try and justify the actions of the Bundys and the death of Lavoy Finnicum by providing some sort of meaning in the form of the Bundy militia fighting a vast Clinton/Russian conspiracy.

The truth is the Bundys are a bunch of self interested and Marcus and attention whores and Lavoie Finnicum was their Patsy. It's unfortunate Mr. Finnicum got so involved he lost his life over something so foolish.

As I said earlier in this thread, there are serious issues with the way the BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service are currently managing public lands. But that does not put the Bundys or their followers in the right.

[GJM]

Is there anyone that really thought this "occupation" was going to have a happy ending?

[Trooper224]

...my apologies to the shooting victim for that bad pun.

Let's be clear on one thing sports fan, there is no "victim" here. There's simply an asshat who went full retard and paid for his stupidity.

[JAD]

Is there anyone that really thought this "occupation" was going to have a happy ending?

It didn't?

[GardoneVT]

Let's be clear on one thing sports fan, there is no "victim" here. There's simply an asshat who went full retard and paid for his stupidity.

Indeed.

Lavoie Finnicum joins Treyvon Martin on the "Martyrs of Shame" wall.

[Dagga Boy]

Someday, some of these folks will figure out that true positive change will never come in an armed rebellion. Had Martin Luther King and his followers marched with guns.....they would have been nothing but a blip in the news cycle as they were all killed. Even the Occupy Wall Street movement had some traction till it became a den of violence and chaos. Had those so called "ranchers" done an unarmed peaceful "occupation" of a location with nothing scarier than signs....they likely would have had some better standing for a cause no one now remembers due to their choice of trying to do things as armed law breakers.

[Joe in PNG]

Someday, some of these folks will figure out that true positive change will never come in an armed rebellion. Had Martin Luther King and his followers marched with guns.....they would have been nothing but a blip in the news cycle as they were all killed. Even the Occupy Wall Street movement had some traction till it became a den of violence and chaos. Had those so called "ranchers" done an unarmed peaceful "occupation" of a location with nothing scarier than signs....they likely would have had some better standing for a cause no one now remembers due to their choice of trying to do things as armed law breakers.

One must remember that our original Revolution was against a government far away, in which we had no representation. Now, the problem is a government all to close which represents the interest of the People all too well. The interest of the People being getting money for nothing and making people stop doing things they don't like.

[Hambo]

Let's be clear on one thing sports fan, there is no "victim" here. There's simply an asshat who went full retard and paid for his stupidity.

Never go full retard.

[voodoo_man]

Someday, some of these folks will figure out that true positive change will never come in an armed rebellion. Had Martin Luther King and his followers marched with guns.....they would have been nothing but a blip in the news cycle as they were all killed. Even the Occupy Wall Street movement had some traction till it became a den of violence and chaos. Had those so called "ranchers" done an unarmed peaceful "occupation" of a location with nothing scarier than signs....they likely would have had some better standing for a cause no one now remembers due to their choice of trying to do things as armed law breakers.

There is a time and place for violence.

This was not it.

[Dagga Boy]

There is a time and place for violence.

This was not it.

If I could give extra likes, I would.

[Beendare]

I've been soakin up info for a long time on this site....Yeah, my first post is a conspiracy theory? Maybe not.........There might be something to it.

From the link

In his just-posted piece, Rappoport wrote: “Is uranium at the heart of the … standoff? That’s the question I’m asking. It isn’t a flippant question. I realize there are many other issue swirling around this event … This article isn’t meant to take apart those matters.”

What he does point to, however, is a U.S. Bureau of Land Management notation that’s titled, “Uranium on BLM-Administered Lands in OR/WA,” that talks about a May 2012 presentation from Oregon Energy LLC to develop a uranium oxide mine, in concert with the Department of Fish and Wildlife, in “southern Malheur County in southeastern Oregon,” Rappoport wrote.

The much-publicized standoff between Oregonian residents and law enforcement has taken place by the Mahleur National Wildlife Refuge.

Judge Andrew P. Napolitano’s “The Freedom Answer Book” provides a clear vision of what your rights are and how you can protect them. Get your copy of this helpful guide to the Constitution today!

Rappopport went on: “What does this have to do with Hillary and Bill Clinton? … The short version is: there’s a case to be made that they, through Uranium One and the Clinton Foundation, facilitated the sale of Uranium One to Putin and the Russians. And if so, and if this area of Oregon is projected to be part of that uranium mining deal, then we are looking at a stunning ‘coincidence’: the U.S. federal government is coming down hard on a group of protesters who are occupying, for their own reasons, a very valuable piece of territory that goes far beyond the issue of private cattle grazing on government land.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/oregon-shootout-rooted-in-clinton-uranium-trade/#X1icpbtguxAgf6xZ.99

[Joe in PNG]

I've been soakin up info for a long time on this site....Yeah, my first post is a conspiracy theory? Maybe not.........There might be something to it.



World Net Daily, Inforwars, Veterans Today, and others of like ilk... all the above are... how can I put it... a bit, ah, not what one would really consider to be trustworthy, truthful, and accurate.

[Joe in PNG]

In fact, if one actually looks into it, the theory tying in uranium and the Clintons and Putin makes not one bit of sense at all. Why would the USA, who produces only 3% of the world's uranium, need to sell to Russia, who produces 5%?

To me, the Wing Nut Daily story looks like a vast majority of WND stories- throw stuff together that makes the Right leaning tinfoil brigade froth and foam. Kind of the same thing Michael Moore does for the Left leaning tinfoil brigade.

[frozentundra]

Wikipedia may label these guys "militia", but I think Webster suggests something else entirely(see below). Gangs that attempt to co-opt the Constitution in order to legitimize their personal agendas, are still just gangs. Tools, useful to all the wrong people. The main thing they've succeeded in doing is to further erode the meaning of the Second Amendment in the minds of the voting population. There are better ways to solve legitimate issues than fabricating armed gangs to play at revolutionary theatre on the 24 hour news cycle. Words are important.

www.merriam-webster.com I've added my own emphasis in bold.

Full Definition of militia
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency
b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service


Full Definition of gang
1 a (1) : a set of articles : outfit <a gang of oars> (2) : a combination of similar implements or devices arranged for convenience to act together <a gang of saws>
b : group: as (1) : a group of persons working together (2) : a group of persons working to unlawful or antisocial ends; especially : a band of antisocial adolescents
2: a group of persons having informal and usually close social relations <watching TV with the gang>

[GardoneVT]

In fact, if one actually looks into it, the theory tying in uranium and the Clintons and Putin makes not one bit of sense at all. Why would the USA, who produces only 3% of the world's uranium, need to sell to Russia, who produces 5%?

To me, the Wing Nut Daily story looks like a vast majority of WND stories- throw stuff together that makes the Right leaning tinfoil brigade froth and foam. Kind of the same thing Michael Moore does for the Left leaning tinfoil brigade.

Indeed. I've got a counter theory. The Bundys calculated the cost of running for office and decided they'd rather hijack a local dispute instead to get power.

Turns out revolting against the government effectively requires planning,skill,and brainpower .None of which was in great supply this go around.

[Joe in PNG]

Indeed. I've got a counter theory. The Bundys calculated the cost of running for office and decided they'd rather hijack a local dispute instead to get power.
Turns out revolting against the government effectively requires planning,skill,and brainpower .None of which was in great supply this go around.

Their biggest mistake was in not using this as an opportunity to turn the whole thing into a Reality Show from the beginning.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/pickups-american-flags-oregon-occupier-hailed-hero-36750346


"My dad was murdered defending the liberties so that we may be free of bondage," said Brittney Beck, a daughter of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, who died Jan. 26 during a confrontation with FBI agents and Oregon state troopers.

Finicum's death on a remote Oregon road has become a symbol for those decrying federal oversight, on public lands in the West and elsewhere, and has led to protests of what they call an unnecessary use of force.

The makings of a martyr, and it's getting mainstream play.

[GardoneVT]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/pickups-american-flags-oregon-occupier-hailed-hero-36750346



The makings of a martyr, and it's getting mainstream play.

It's the photo negative of Treyvon Martin.

[Skeeter]

It's the photo negative of Treyvon Martin. Was thinking similar, but with Michael Brown in Ferguson and the "hands up don't shoot" myth.

[Cookie Monster]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/pickups-american-flags-oregon-occupier-hailed-hero-36750346



The makings of a martyr, and it's getting mainstream play.

It's crazy, break the law, ruin people's lives, disrupt an entire community, and cost taxpayers millions, yes millions of dollars and be celebrated like a hero.

Welcome to a new America where welfare ranchers are held up as the great example of the American West and being a felon is being a hero.

[Kyle Reese]

Let's add Press TV and RT to the mix, since we're citing sources with the veracity of a supermarket tabloid, such as Alex Jones.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[idahojess]

Now the FBI is moving in on the remaining four at the Wildlife Refuge. Can't say I blame them.

Apparently you can listen live on You Tube. No thanks. Hoping this ends without any one else getting hurt.

From the Oregonian (which has had good coverage of this):


FBI agents in armored vehicles on Wednesday evening moved in on the last four occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, hemming them into their rough camp and insisting they put down their guns and surrender.

The occupiers rejected the demands, instead insisting that they be allowed to surrender on Thursday morning in the company of a national religious figure and a Nevada state legislator.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/oregon_standoff_fbi_moves_in_o.html#incart_big-photo

[Trooper224]

Toss in a flash bang and end this silliness already.

[Peally]

No need to risk anything. Just surround them and starve them out. When they run out of Snickers bars and crave more they'll need to give up or die.

[PNWTO]

Looks like it over. Hopefully the asshats spend some more time occupying a federal facility...

Just heard the term "Mormon extremists" which I find hilarious.

[HCM]

Just heard the term "Mormon extremists" which I find hilarious.

Historically, not so ridiculous.

http://www.historynet.com/utah-war-us-government-versus-mormon-settlers.htm

[PNWTO]

Historically, not so ridiculous.

http://www.historynet.com/utah-war-us-government-versus-mormon-settlers.htm

I was reading about that earlier, and read some comment from NV residents who talked about how much it is downplayed( which is disgusting). I'm not a huge fan of the LDS church so I'll just leave it at that.

[Trooper224]

Well, they must have run out of Hot Pockets and Slim Jim's. Thankfully, this episode of the fool's parade is over for now. Looks like Cliven Bundy has been arrested as well.

[Gadfly]

Glad it's over. Glad no one died. Glad they indicted the major players. Those felony convictions are going cost those guys dearly.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160212/61857364a578e08813f29ce8ccf44bfd.jpg

[Beendare]

In trying to get my arms around this whole thing.......This is the best article I've seen- great read;
High Country news 2.12.16
link
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay


I went to the Malheur looking for kindred spirits. I found the mad, the fervent, the passionately misguided. I found the unknowing pawns of an existential chess game, in which we are, all of us, now caught. Driving home across the snow-packed Malheur Basin, through mile after mile of sage, with towering basalt cliffs in the near distance, herds of mule deer appearing as gray specks in the tongues of slide rock and wind-exposed yellow grass, I did not wonder what Edward Abbey would have said about all of this, or Kropotkin or the lugubrious monarchist Thomas Hobbes. I thought instead of the old C.S. Lewis books of my childhood, and of Lewis’ writings on the nature of evil, where evil is never a lie, because lying implies creation, and evil, by its nature, has no creative power. Instead, the nature of evil is to take a truth and twist it, sometimes as much as 180 degrees.

Love of country becomes hatred of those we believe don’t share our devotion, or don’t share it the same way. The natural right of armed self-defense becomes the means to take over a wildlife refuge, to exert tyranny on those who work there, or those who love the place for the nature it preserves in a world replete with man’s endeavors. The U.S. Constitution, one of the most liberal and empowering documents ever composed, becomes, with just a slight annotation or interpretation, the tool of our own enslavement.

[Trooper224]

In trying to get my arms around this whole thing.......This is the best article I've seen- great read;
High Country news 2.12.16
link
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay

When an author who isn't Dickens or Austen, especially one who turns out to be a blogger from Montana, starts trotting out words like gobsmacked and lugubrious, I start to roll my eyes and dismiss them as trying far too hard. In the end though, I think he's right on point.

[Shellback]

Interesting news. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html#incart_maj-story-1)

An elaborate computer analysis, a review of the FBI aerial video of the shooting scene and a video from a passenger in Finicum's pickup produced a result that startled the team poring over evidence into Finicum's fatal shooting that day.

The fourth round, police concluded, was fired by an FBI agent who subsequently twice denied to investigators ever firing his gun. As the investigation proceeded, detectives determined he also fired a second time, but didn't hit anything at the scene.

The discovery of that gunfire and conduct afterward by the agent and four other agents have triggered a criminal investigation that could result in the prosecution of all five. The agents all serve on the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team...

More in depth article. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html)

Cox's video showed that one shot hit the truck's left rear passenger window as Finicum stepped out. At the time, Finicum appeared to have his hands at least at shoulder height.

Investigators later established that the bullet entered the truck through the roof before shattering the window and concluded it was fired by an FBI agent. Another bullet from the same FBI agent apparently went wild and missed the truck altogether, the investigation showed...

[PPGMD]

Trigger happy FBI agent, that has never happened before. :rolleyes:

Come on guys, people already have a stereotype of the FBI you don't need to prove them right.

[idahojess]

Interesting video by the Oregonian.


http://youtu.be/C6xD9Ssa7hI

[idahojess]

Occupiers not guilty.
Interesting.

The jury of nine women and three men returned the verdicts after five hours of deliberations on Thursday in the high-profile case that riveted the state and drew national and international attention to the federal bird sanctuary in rural eastern Oregon.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html#incart_maj-story-1

[HCM]

Bundy's attorney tackled by US Marshals during heated argument with judge


PORTLAND, Ore. -- Ammon Bundy's attorney was tackled by U.S. Marshals during a heated argument with the judge after his client was acquitted on all counts Thursday afternoon.

After the verdict was read, attorney Marcus Mumford argued that Bundy was free to go. Mumford was yelling that his client was free to go.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/bundys-attorney-tackled-by-us-marshals-during-heated-argument-with-judge/343359074

[Patrick Taylor]

Jury nullification , long overdue and should happen a lot more often.

[Lex Luthier]

I did not see that coming. Wow.

[UNK]

http://nypost.com/2016/10/27/oregon-militia-leaders-acquitted-in-wildlife-refuge-standoff/

[LittleLebowski]

Color me outright amazed and surprised.

[TAZ]

Wow. I'm in the holy crap mode. Didn't someone die during the affair? So if the guys weren't doing anything illegal how would the armed response for LEO be justified.

Assuming the appeal is being filed asap.

[RoyGBiv]

Jury nullification?

[TR675]

Jury nullification?

Looks that way.


Wow. I'm in the holy crap mode. Didn't someone die during the affair? So if the guys weren't doing anything illegal how would the armed response for LEO be justified.

Assuming the appeal is being filed asap.

There's no appealing an acquittal. I can only imagine how embarrassed the prosecutor is. They must have gotten a really anti-government jury panel.

[Shellback]

Jury nullification , long overdue and should happen a lot more often.

I am a proponent of jury nullification. This article (http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/10/28/clear-jury-instructions-jury-nullification-freed-bundy-7/) is stating that it wasn't the case for this verdict.

The judge, prosecutors and defense lawyers haggled for hours over how to word instructions to the jury about interpreting the law to guide their verdict in the Oregon standoff trial.

The instructions explain how the law defines a conspiracy, for instance, and what kind of behavior might amount to intimidation.

The jury of nine women and three men returned not guilty verdicts after five hours of deliberations on Thursday in the high-profile case that riveted the state and drew national and international attention to the federal bird sanctuary in rural eastern Oregon.

Here are some of the key issues covered in more than 30 pages of instructions that U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown read to jurors and what they used to reach their decision...

http://fija.org/wp-content/uploads/primaryfunction-rev4.jpg

[rauchman]

I am a proponent of jury nullification. This article (http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/10/28/clear-jury-instructions-jury-nullification-freed-bundy-7/) is stating that it wasn't the case for this verdict.


http://fija.org/wp-content/uploads/primaryfunction-rev4.jpg

Awesome!

[Cookie Monster]

They are a bunch of felons that cost the taxpayers millions upon millions of dollars, destroyed government property, and placed unknown hardship on the workers at the wildlife refuge. It is a sad day when people cause such destruction just get to walk away.

[Gadfly]

I am at a total loss as to how you could not get conspiracy out of this. Unless 30+ people randomly showed up at the same spot, to conduct the same activity, but never actually discussed the activity or agreed to anything?

Totally random act...

Now, the Band of Bundys will think they have a free pass to keep this shit up at the next location.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Wow. I'm in the holy crap mode. Didn't someone die during the affair? So if the guys weren't doing anything illegal how would the armed response for LEO be justified.

Assuming the appeal is being filed asap.

Felony vehicle theft but that is a state offense.

[Moonshot]

I have no idea if they should have been convicted of anything, or everything, or not - I didn't follow the case much when it was happening and I haven't followed it at all since it went to trial, but I love the idea of Jury Nullification. I think it should be used far more often, and it's sad that more people don't even know what it is, or the power they have as jurists.

[Malamute]

I may be mistaken in my understanding,...but, wasn't the conspiracy charge NOT "conspiracy to take over a federal facility" or whatever one wants to call it, BUT "conspiracy to keep federal workers from performing their duties". At which point, the defense was that they didn't INTEND to keep federal workers from performing their duties, they were performing an act of political speech or civil disobedience or whatever. The INTENT wasn't as charged, so the jury had little choice, as their intent couldn't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt as to what the charge was. If my understanding is correct, then it seems more a problem of the prosecutors choice of charges, not so much a big statement about the validity of their actions and if the jury approved of it or not etc.

[Cookie Monster]

I may be mistaken in my understanding,...but, wasn't the conspiracy charge NOT "conspiracy to take over a federal facility" or whatever one wants to call it, BUT "conspiracy to keep federal workers from performing their duties". At which point, the defense was that they didn't INTEND to keep federal workers from performing their duties, they were performing an act of political speech or civil disobedience or whatever. The INTENT wasn't as charged, so the jury had little choice, as their intent couldn't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt as to what the charge was. If my understanding is correct, then it seems more a problem of the prosecutors choice of charges, not so much a big statement about the validity of their actions and if the jury approved of it or not etc.

I believe you are on track, also the head of the refuge told folks not to come into work for their safety so the occupiers were never really challenged. Thus the thought that the occupiers never impeded work. But my believe is that if you shit on my desk, that impedes my work.

It is still crazy that those dirtbags just get to walk away.

[Malamute]

Oh, I totally agree with you, just commenting on the verdict, and related legal intricacies that don't seem to be mentioned in most conversations so far.

I heard a bit on the radio last night, the details were totally missed, as were the details of why the "peaceful protesters" of the pipeline were so oppressed by the police, when nobody mentioned that they had been camped on private property and given notice to leave, and had moved construction equipment vehicles onto a state highway and burned them, molotov cocktails thrown at police, and shots fired at police. So, simply saying the police were acting harshly with no proper context was not a truthful or productive conversation.

[Patrick Taylor]

There are gov't employees that think their job is "impeded" by civilians owning firearms.

[LittleLebowski]

Not sure if this news applies to the Oregon standoff or not.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/08/charges-against-rancher-cliven-bundy-three-others-are-dismissed.html


A federal judge dismissed all charges against rancher Cliven Bundy and three others.

U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro cited "flagrant prosecutorial misconduct" in her decision to dismiss all charges against rancher Cliven Bundy, two of his sons and another person.

[blues]

Not sure if this news applies to the Oregon standoff or not.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/08/charges-against-rancher-cliven-bundy-three-others-are-dismissed.html

If they violated "Brady" that's egregious conduct by the gov't. No real surprise there, and judges have long memories going forward.

[LittleLebowski]

If they violated "Brady" that's egregious conduct by the gov't. No real surprise there, and judges have long memories going forward.

The fact that this judge is an Obama appointee should tell you something about this case.

[blues]

The fact that this judge is an Obama appointee should tell you something about this case.

So it would seem...but I won't jump to any conclusions. I've been around judges enough to know that you can't necessarily assume anything regarding how they'll rule on a particular matter.

[Chance]

From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42615204):


On Monday, the judge said her decision was partly based on "flagrant prosecutorial misconduct", the Las Vegas Review-Journal reports.

She said the prosecution had withheld evidence that could have been favourable to the defence team.

This included records about federal surveillance at the Bundy ranch, the presence of government snipers and previous law enforcement assessments that the Bundys posed no threat.

[Peally]

There are gov't employees that think their job is "impeded" by civilians owning firearms.

Good for them, has nothing to do with this case.

[TDA]

Witholding Brady or Giglio materials is not something anyone who came from a decent home with good parents should ever do. That’s awful. It’s not how you’re supposed to act as an officer of the court, and really really wanting to win isn’t an excuse.

[PNWTO]

That's a bit disappointing, but it was right.

I wish nothing good to the Bundy family and hopefully they will fade into obscurity.

[wvincent]

I just wish that folks (not necessarily on this forum) would quit treating the Bundy's like folk heroes. They most certainly are not. Just small time outlaws who didn't pay their bills and refused to honor grazing agreements they willingly signed with the Fed.

But, maybe all the 3%'s and "molon labe " lickers who showed up to support them and just added fuel to the fire
just needed someone, anyone, to hook their wagon to.

In the end, I find I have more sympathy for the Bundy's cattle, than I do for the Bundy's themselves.

[Peally]

"Molon labe lickers", I like that.

[HCM]

I just wish that folks (not necessarily on this forum) would quit treating the Bundy's like folk heroes. They most certainly are not. Just small time outlaws who didn't pay their bills and refused to honor grazing agreements they willingly signed with the Fed.

But, maybe all the 3%'s and "molon labe " lickers who showed up to support them and just added fuel to the fire
just needed someone, anyone, to hook their wagon to.

In the end, I find I have more sympathy for the Bundy's cattle, than I do for the Bundy's themselves.

This ^^^.

Withholding Brady materials is a serious issue, serious enough that dismissing charges certainly seems appropriate.

Unfortunately, many will mistake that for the Bundy's being "innocent" and it may embolden others to take similar or more extreme actions.

[PNWTO]

Unfortunately, many will mistake that for the Bundy's being "innocent" and it may embolden others to take similar or more extreme actions.

Bingo, I've already seen some supportive material and posts out there by folks who don't understand, either from stupidity or willful ignorance, the broad gap between "fucked up procedures" and "exoneration".

[45dotACP]

Wouldn't have expected this opinion of them from Slate of all places...

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/the-cliven-bundy-prosecution-was-a-miscarriage-of-justice.html

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

HRT team member made false statements.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2018/02/fbi_told_oregon_state_police_n.html

[blues]

These are unfortunate times for the Bureau. They once had the best P.R. machine in the business. Now, not so much.

I hope things get righted quickly.

[JodyH]

These are unfortunate times for the Bureau.
Is the FBI's current culture of incompetence and corruption nature or nurture?

[blues]

Is the FBI's current culture of incompetence and corruption nature or nurture?

I never worked for the FBI, there are better sources of information on their culture. I can only speak to my own limited experiences with individual agents.

[LSP552]

I simply hope he will have happen to him what the FBI would have done to me as a State SWAT guy under the same circumstances.

[blues]

I simply hope he will have happen to him what the FBI would have done to me as a State SWAT guy under the same circumstances.

Wouldn't that be considered cruel and unusual punishment?

/s

[TC215]

Is the FBI's current culture of incompetence and corruption nature or nurture?

I’ve worked with the bureau extensively over the last 6 years or so, and all my dealings with them have been excellent.

This is at the field office level, though, and not working with headquarters.

[Lomshek]

These are unfortunate times for the Bureau. They once had the best P.R. machine in the business. Now, not so much.

I hope things get righted quickly.

It's not so much their PR machine that's been the problem.

[blues]

It's not so much their PR machine that's been the problem.

No doubt. I was only trying to say that in the past their PR was strong enough to overcome some of the faux pas which otherwise might have tarnished the brand.

Clearly, they have some housekeeping to do. (I personally believe that all agencies, as well as their agents have an obligation to live up their oaths and creed...or suffer the consequences.)

[Shellback]

Thought provoking... (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2018/02/fbi_told_oregon_state_police_n.html#incart_most-read_)

The government response also reveals that Oregon State Police SWAT troopers at the scene, ordinarily required to wear body cameras, didn't that day at the request of the FBI. The FBI did obtain video from FBI surveillance planes flying above the scene.

State police detectives also normally record interviews of officers who might be involved in a shooting, but they didn't that night when questioning the FBI Hostage Rescue Team members, again at the FBI's request. A follow-up interview with the hostage team members also came with unusual conditions, prosecutors note...

On Feb. 6, 2016, two state police detectives reinterviewed Astarita, but by then the hostage rescue team agents knew there were unaccounted-for gunshots and missing shell casings. The agents set conditions for the interview: They could only be interviewed as a group, the interview couldn't be recorded and their lawyer could be present on a speakerphone.

The state police detectives found those conditions "particularly an unrecorded group interview - odd and problematic, but reluctantly agreed to them, believing that the alternative would be no interview at all,'' prosecutors wrote.