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Ga Shooter
10-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Well here I am agian with more questions because Ithink to much about some things. After reading DOCGKR's thread on training with Kyle it got me thinking about edged weapons. I normally carry a pocket knife for every day utilitarian needs (cutting car belts, wire, boxes, food, etc.) I also carry a Blackhawk Cruicible II for SD. I never use to Crucible for ANYTHING that way it stays razor sharp. In Doc post and the comment that followed it seems that people who know more about knife fighting than I ever will now carry a fixed blade because under stress you will not be able to open a folder when you need to. While I am sure that is probably true the question that continues to run through my mind is why do I carry a knife for Sd when I have 1 or 2 guns on me all the time? I know if it turns into a struggle and the gun cannot be drawn it can be used to create space so you can draw but at what point if you are just simply getting your ass kicked is it acceptable to pull a knife? I am just having a hard time creating a scenario in my mind for this.

My other question is while looking for a fixed blade I have come across 2 that look promising the Blackhawk Kalista II and the ESEE Izula. Does anyone have experience with either?

As always thanks for the help and insight.

JHC
10-04-2011, 01:47 PM
I have been knocking around with the Izula and factory IWB sheath and it's a very nice little knife. It is SOOO light that it is the best knife for running I have tried.

I've also got a Crucible with the factory sheath and the RCS AIWB sheath. The Izula solution is not quite as "neat" as the RCS+Crucible but it seems close in terms of utility to me. It is a good deal smaller than the Crucible and even though it carries more upright than the RCS Crucible rig, it is very low profile.

I have no HSLD knife bonifides however.

Dropkick
10-04-2011, 03:35 PM
This may sound really stupid, but...
On the off chance your pistol goes down hard, having a fixed blade is more than nothing.

Dagga Boy
10-04-2011, 04:18 PM
I've spent a ton of time with the knife stuff. The Strider DB fixed blade that is very popular with Mil/L/E folks was designed to my specifications back in the early 90's to address many of these issues and to provide a tool that could function as a last ditch or back up weapon for LEO's. Small fixed blades work very well in close quarters and are a very viable as a self defense tool. The key with them is that they often are illegal for concealed carry. They are not considered favorably for self defense tools by the media and public (this is a potential issue for court later). With that said they are very efficient. I can probably do more damage to an opponent faster and doing far more extensive damage than with a firearm in very close quarters.

Folders offer a better route for legality, and public acceptance. They require more practice and training to be able to deploy under stress as a weapon. For what its worth during force on force training against full time uniformed police officers, I was able to deploy a folding knife and win every confrontation without fail. It just requires a lot more training and more ideal circumstances than the fixed blade.

Mitchell, Esq.
10-04-2011, 08:31 PM
I like a Lagriffe on a key chain.

I can palm it in my hand, and the sparkly-dangly keys act as cover. After all, I've got keys in my hand, not a knife.

I can flick the keys at someone as an opening distraction, or take the keys in my other hand as my hand with the knife drifts low and you barely see the little slim black knife in my right hand as you are looking at they keys in my left.

Kevin B.
10-05-2011, 06:38 AM
...the question that continues to run through my mind is why do I carry a knife for Sd when I have 1 or 2 guns on me all the time?

As has been noted, at close-quarters, a knife has the potential to do more extensive damage, faster than a firearm. It cannot suffer a stoppage and does not require reloading.


...I know if it turns into a struggle and the gun cannot be drawn it can be used to create space so you can draw but at what point if you are just simply getting your ass kicked is it acceptable to pull a knife? I am just having a hard time creating a scenario in my mind for this.

A knife may or may not be of benefit if someone is punching or kicking you into unconsciousness. It does have enormous benefit if someone is trying to choke you into unconsciouness or if you wind up in a wrestling match over one of your firearms.

As with a firearm, the mere posession of a knife will not necessarily confer the benefits of having one. Training on how to deploy and employ it contextually and some degree of sustainment training are required.

TCinVA
10-05-2011, 07:03 AM
I view a small, fixed-blade knife as a way to get someone off of me long enough for me to get to my gun. (On the assumption that I'm in this situation because I couldn't get to my gun in the first place) While there are certainly people out there who are bigger, stronger, and more skilled than me in hand to hand fighting systems, I've noticed that when someone produces an edged weapon and gets stabby that the dominant human instinct is to get the hell away from that.

WDW
10-05-2011, 07:14 AM
My recommendation for a small SD fixed blade is the Bark River STS-3. It is always a good idea to have a knife on you everywhere you go. There are some places you can legally carry a knife but not a gun. There are also situations, limited as they are, where a knife is a wiser choice than a gun, say in a crowded elevator or extremely crowded place in general where you just need to break away from a threat. I am a huge proponent of the fixed blade as it requires no skill to open under stress and you never have to worry about a lock failing. If you want to see how weak most folders are, open them and smack them spine first on a hard surface 4 or 5 times. If the lock fails and it closes, you might as well throw that knife away because it is an acident waiting to happen.

David Armstrong
10-05-2011, 12:58 PM
...under stress you will not be able to open a folder when you need to. While I am sure that is probably true...
Without commenting on the rest of the post, I would have to disagree with the above as a "truth". Like nyeti said, it can be done and it has been done. I've had a couple of high stress situations where I was able to draw and deploy my off-side folder, and I'm sure there are others.

SecondsCount
10-05-2011, 01:06 PM
The same logic applies to knives as it does firearms- Take a good class if you are interested in purchasing one.

I had been carrying a knife in one form or another for over twenty years when I took my first knife focused training class. The local two day class was reasonably priced, and was a complete eye opener on martial arts and close quarter fighting. It created all kinds of new options I had never thought of when dealing with a threat at arms length distances.

I carry a Benchmade Mini-Griptilian which is a folder. While a fixed knife would be more optimal, I feel confident in being able to produce the folder in time of need, and it blends well with my business casual attire.

superscribe
10-05-2011, 01:21 PM
i find it curious that a group of people who are willing to change their dress and clothing choices would feel awkard or worry about having a fixed blade over a tactical folder.

1) a fixed blade doesn't have to be a huge, fixed blade
2) a "non-aggressive" looking fixed blade is probably better for tactical situations than a "tactical" folder.
3) if you have a tactical folder and spend a lot of time training to deploy it under stress, you will still only be on equal footing with someone who has a fixed blade with only a little training.

Dagga Boy
10-05-2011, 05:57 PM
i find it curious that a group of people who are willing to change their dress and clothing choices would feel awkard or worry about having a fixed blade over a tactical folder.

1) a fixed blade doesn't have to be a huge, fixed blade
2) a "non-aggressive" looking fixed blade is probably better for tactical situations than a "tactical" folder.
3) if you have a tactical folder and spend a lot of time training to deploy it under stress, you will still only be on equal footing with someone who has a fixed blade with only a little training.

Well.......in places like California, carrying a concealed fixed blade is an instant felony. That can be an issue.

Being I pretty much designed the knife that changed a lot of thinking on small fixed blades, I agree that small is good. A fixed blade is better than most folders for most jobs, but not all jobs.

I carry a small fixed blade in combination with the folder. I use the folder for everyday cutting chores. I pretty much always have one. The are more accepted for carry and accepted by society. My fixed blade is more geared towards weapon and extreme use, particularly vehicle extraction. I would equate them to the difference between a pistol and a long gun. In almost every case, I would prefer a carbine over a pistol. I shoot a carbine far better and more efficiently than a pistol. The problem is that everybody looks at me funny when I cruise into the grocery store with my slung carbine. Then the cops get all weird when they see me open carrying me carbine at the mall......:eek:.

jetfire
10-05-2011, 08:24 PM
Being I pretty much designed the knife that changed a lot of thinking on small fixed blades, I agree that small is good.

What knife was that?

JM Campbell
10-05-2011, 11:05 PM
Strider DB fixed blade per his previous commentary.

EVP
10-06-2011, 08:43 AM
...I've noticed that when someone produces an edged weapon and gets stabby that the dominant human instinct is to get the hell away from that.

This statement cracked me up, but is very true. Sig line worthy.

I carry a fixed blade sometimes when attire permits. It is usually a blade that is less then 4 inches. A fixed blade gives me more confidence then a folder for A few reasons.


I've noticed in practicing bjj (defensive bjj more then comp stuff) there are many opportunities were one could deploy a blade and wreak havoc on the vitals.

NickA
10-06-2011, 08:54 AM
Couple of questions:
You guys that have had success in FoF with a folder I'm curious about what you used and where you carried it- particularly how did it open (thumbstud, Spyderco hole, auto) and tip up or tip down, etc. And was it clipped to front pocket, back pocket or what.
Also any other suggestions for a good small fixed blade that doesn't break the bank, preferably with a good sheath system? I'd love a DB or Clinch Pick but they sure are spendy.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

JHC
10-06-2011, 10:29 AM
Without commenting on the rest of the post, I would have to disagree with the above as a "truth". Like nyeti said, it can be done and it has been done. I've had a couple of high stress situations where I was able to draw and deploy my off-side folder, and I'm sure there are others.

SSG David Bellavia used his folder (Gerber) to finish off the last jihadi he battled hand to hand; detailed in his book "House to House".

superscribe
10-06-2011, 11:02 AM
Well.......in places like California, carrying a concealed fixed blade is an instant felony. That can be an issue.

Being I pretty much designed the knife that changed a lot of thinking on small fixed blades, I agree that small is good. A fixed blade is better than most folders for most jobs, but not all jobs.

I carry a small fixed blade in combination with the folder. I use the folder for everyday cutting chores. I pretty much always have one. The are more accepted for carry and accepted by society. My fixed blade is more geared towards weapon and extreme use, particularly vehicle extraction. I would equate them to the difference between a pistol and a long gun. In almost every case, I would prefer a carbine over a pistol. I shoot a carbine far better and more efficiently than a pistol. The problem is that everybody looks at me funny when I cruise into the grocery store with my slung carbine. Then the cops get all weird when they see me open carrying me carbine at the mall......:eek:.

i truly don't know why you posted this. i'll do you the courtesy of being honest and say i think it was just to draw attention to yourself, but i'm not sure, so i don't know how to respond.

there are a few points of clarification i'd like to make regardless.

1) if it's illegal, then it's illegal. a lot of people think carrying a gun is advantageous over not carrying a gun. whether you choose to do it illegally is not something i'm entertaining.
2) what job is a folder better at than a fixed blade, other than making you less self conscious?
3) your comparison between a small folding knife and a small fixed blade knife to a pistol and a carbine is hyperbole.

Shellback
10-06-2011, 12:17 PM
Tracker Dan's Bloodshark is a great looking fixed blade for EDC. However, it is spendy and there is a long waiting list to get one.

VerVeer Cutlery makes some good looking knives as well, one similar to Bloodshark as well. A forum member on another site has one and is very happy with it. http://www.facebook.com/mikeandstar#!/pages/VerVeer-Cutlery/141776615852387

The new Benchmade SOCP looks like a winner as well. http://www.knifeworks.com/benchmade176socpdaggersandsheath.aspx It's based on a design from Spartan Blades but is a much more reasonable price.

ToddG
10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
I just got my Clinch Pick. I've managed to draw it a dozen times without hemorrhaging so obviously I've mastered it, right? :cool:

Dagga Boy
10-06-2011, 03:04 PM
i truly don't know why you posted this. i'll do you the courtesy of being honest and say i think it was just to draw attention to yourself, but i'm not sure, so i don't know how to respond.

there are a few points of clarification i'd like to make regardless.

1) if it's illegal, then it's illegal. a lot of people think carrying a gun is advantageous over not carrying a gun. whether you choose to do it illegally is not something i'm entertaining.
2) what job is a folder better at than a fixed blade, other than making you less self conscious?
3) your comparison between a small folding knife and a small fixed blade knife to a pistol and a carbine is hyperbole.


You're right, you caught me. I'll just head back to my lane and leave the knife stuff to the experts.

NickA
10-06-2011, 03:14 PM
I just got my Clinch Pick. I've managed to draw it a dozen times without hemorrhaging so obviously I've mastered it, right? :cool:

Oh yeah, you're fine;) you're doing ECQC soon right?

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superscribe
10-06-2011, 03:25 PM
I just got my Clinch Pick. I've managed to draw it a dozen times without hemorrhaging so obviously I've mastered it, right? :cool:

probably not, but you're probably better at getting it out under stress than das Taktikal folder you've deployed a dozen times.

Ed L
10-06-2011, 04:18 PM
i truly don't know why you posted this. i'll do you the courtesy of being honest and say i think it was just to draw attention to yourself, but i'm not sure, so i don't know how to respond.

there are a few points of clarification i'd like to make regardless.

1) if it's illegal, then it's illegal. a lot of people think carrying a gun is advantageous over not carrying a gun. whether you choose to do it illegally is not something i'm entertaining.
2) what job is a folder better at than a fixed blade, other than making you less self conscious?
3) your comparison between a small folding knife and a small fixed blade knife to a pistol and a carbine is hyperbole.

The person you are addressing is a former CA LEO who has designed knives, and I suspect has some first hand experience with deadly force, as well as serving as a SWAT & firearms trainer.

In the case of the Fixed blade in CA, it is a felony. That means you loose your right to buy and own arms for the rest of your life. Not a good trade off.

superscribe
10-06-2011, 04:34 PM
we're miscommunicating. i wasn't attempting to undermine his authority, i truly wasn't clear on why he posted, or if he was trying to communicate something i wasn't understanding. i took a risk at being honest, so i'm hoping for honesty in return. personally i don't think there's anything wrong with posting just to get attention, so take that for what it's worth.

more importantly, we haven't disagreed on anything. nyeti just expounded upon things i said.

as far as felony goes, i'll let the owner decide whether the advantages of a fixed blade are worth breaking the law. personally, i didn't think my case was THAT compelling.

JHC
10-06-2011, 04:40 PM
we're miscommunicating. i wasn't attempting to undermine his authority, i truly wasn't clear on why he posted, or if he was trying to communicate something i wasn't understanding. i took a risk at being honest, so i'm hoping for honesty in return. personally i don't think there's anything wrong with posting just to get attention, so take that for what it's worth.

more importantly, we haven't disagreed on anything. nyeti just expounded upon things i said.

as far as felony goes, i'll let the owner decide whether the advantages of a fixed blade are worth breaking the law. personally, i didn't think my case was THAT compelling.

Honestly, I cannot tell what point you are trying to make across a few posts, other than a dig at nyeti and that's not the point of the thread.

Jay Cunningham
10-06-2011, 08:28 PM
Let's get the thread back on track.

BWT
10-06-2011, 10:39 PM
I'm thinking knives are like guns, honestly.

It'd be ideal to carry an AR-15, AK-47, SCAR, whatever, for self-defense. Because that would serve as the best self-defense weapon that you could carry with you, maybe an M-60 or M249 would serve better, but again, not practical, because availability, price, laws, practicality of carry.

Unfortunately, that's just not practical, so we compromise and get a pistol and carry that.

Same application for knives, I think a fixed knife has many upsides of a folding knife. But I can't carry a fixed knife with me every day, heck I can't carry a gun to my job, but I can carry a pocket knife and break the rules, I'm looking strongly at a Zero Tolerance 0350 after I purchase a new EDC handgun.

Honestly... I probably need to look into a pocket pistol as well, it's just the practicality of when do I want to carry, I work two blocks from the jail, but I work in a Corporate office, it'd be nice to slip something in my pocket once I got to my car (in the parking garage, another great place to get cornered as I leave at 8:30-9:00 P.M. at night going to my car), for when I get gas, or if I want to go to the store, etc.

But, we'll see.

That was more a philosophical side of it, I'd say this, carry a knife, you're a man, and if you're comfortable carrying a gun, carry a knife. There's many life saving applications a knife has beyond stabbing your way out of a situation, and not to mention it's useful.

ETA: As for the tactics, I thought about it, I'll subscribe to the theory of a knife instructor "First rule of a knife fight, is avoid a knife fight, you're going to get cut, I don't care how good you are."

I'll say this, I've had some family members involved in some stabbings/slashings, you'd be amazed what a human being can survive. I would not want to stab someone to death, you really need deep penetration honestly. I'd say a 4-6'' blade is about as big as I'd go if I had no practical restrictions.

David Armstrong
10-07-2011, 01:30 PM
Couple of questions:
You guys that have had success in FoF with a folder I'm curious about what you used and where you carried it- particularly how did it open (thumbstud, Spyderco hole, auto) and tip up or tip down, etc. And was it clipped to front pocket, back pocket or what.
Also any other suggestions for a good small fixed blade that doesn't break the bank, preferably with a good sheath system? I'd love a DB or Clinch Pick but they sure are spendy.

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One instance for me was a Spyderco Endura, left front pocket, tip up.

Chuck Haggard
10-07-2011, 06:12 PM
While I agree a fixed blade is easier to deploy under duress than a folder, I know of three cases where coppers have used folders to cut bad guys off of them.

I also know of a case where a bad guy was able to deploy the officer's folder after snatching it from him and being able to get it deployed. Officer was stabbed, bad guy then got shot by a 2nd officer.

joshs
10-08-2011, 12:12 PM
I've been carrying a BOB from Paul Moore for about a month. It's very easy to carry in a tip up sheath at 11 o'clock.

I use it almost daily for normal tasks. Forward Grip Edge Up works surprisingly well for EDC tasks.

Dropkick
10-08-2011, 07:57 PM
JoshS, I found Paul Moore's website, but didn't see any prices... Do I even want to know?

zRxz
10-08-2011, 10:53 PM
I've been seriously considering a purchase of a Cold Steel Braveheart and complimenting it with a sheath from Bladerigs. I think of it as 80% of a Tracker Dan Bloodshark, at half the price. With what I do for training, I would need to get my paws on two live blades, one of which is for a canvas/duct tape dummy that I've built for cutting up, the other for carry. Because there are no trainers for the Braveheart, I would probably need to buy yet another to grind off the edge and point for rolling around with (a part of my training that is sorely lacking).

NickA
10-08-2011, 11:22 PM
JoshS, I found Paul Moore's website, but didn't see any prices... Do I even want to know?

I'm curious as well, if you don't want to post it please PM. Some Google results suggest that it may not be that bad. Interestingly I found a post somewhere that he actually got the OK from Trace Rinaldi to make it since it's so similar to the Clinch Pick.

joshs
10-09-2011, 10:04 AM
JoshS, I found Paul Moore's website, but didn't see any prices... Do I even want to know?

It was around $215 for the knife, trainer, and two sheaths. I think Paul's use of a simple tool steel (O1) helps keep the cost down.

SouthNarc
10-09-2011, 03:40 PM
I've read several posts attributed to various people that folding knives are "worthless" under pressure. While I personally believe that a folding knife is sub-optimal compared to a fixed blade for in-fight weapon access, to say they are "worthless" is an unsubstantiated blanket statement.

Watch this video at 1:58.

http://www.vimeo.com/4271788

And this video at around 1:50 or so.

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

That's just two. I've seen a bunch more. In the hierarchy of accessability I'd say we'd go fixed blade, waved folder, non-waved folder from most to least accessible.

Until someone can show me some video of the coursework they've run at the pressure level shown in these two clips, I'll stand by my statements.

TCinVA
10-09-2011, 10:11 PM
I've been carrying a BOB from Paul Moore for about a month. It's very easy to carry in a tip up sheath at 11 o'clock.

I use it almost daily for normal tasks. Forward Grip Edge Up works surprisingly well for EDC tasks.

I just traded emails with Paul...the price he's asking for was too good to pass up. That, or I have poor impulse control. Maybe both.

Totally blaming this on you, dude.

Ga Shooter
10-10-2011, 09:17 AM
WOW!! Lots of great info. Thanks to everybody who had constructive things to say in this thread. This has helped me a lot with the mindset of carrying a SD knife(being choked, elevators, Extreme Close Quaters, etc). As I stated in my original post I always have a locking pocket knife for daily "chores". I will check into some of the "off brands" of fixed blades posted by Irish and JoshSc and the wave folders mentioned by SouthNarc. While the more expensive knives may be worth the money right now until I get more training(really hoping to make a SouthNarc class late 2012) and money I will need to stick to the others. I am also thinking that carrying a fixed blade (when possible) at the 10:30-11:00 for a reverse grip from my other uber strong hand:D would also allow me to have access from my strong hand with normal grip. Lots of things to think about.

Thanks again and please feel free to keep up the good discussion.

Ga Shooter

NickA
10-10-2011, 10:08 AM
I just traded emails with Paul...the price he's asking for was too good to pass up. That, or I have poor impulse control. Maybe both.

Totally blaming this on you, dude.

Same here... Good price and lead time isn't bad at all. Guess I'll blame the both of you :)
ETA : Thanks to OP for starting the thread, i'd been wondering about the same questions.
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MadMax17
10-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Are there any good wave folders anybody would reccommend?

rjohnson4405
10-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Spyderco makes a couple good wave knives:

Endura4 (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=226)

There's also a delica model with the same feature.

Not too expensive. You can also modify some knives with large holes (for opening) to be wave pretty easily.

CRKT solves this problem with what they call "Carson Flippers", but I really don't know much about their knives.

will_1400
10-14-2011, 08:21 PM
It's very refreshing to read a thread like this after listening to someone in my squadron extolling the "greatness of the Soviet Ballistic Knife". *rolls eyes*

More on topic, I'm carrying a CRKT folder with a partially-serrated tanto blade. Not the best knife around, but it's the best I can get ahold of at the moment.

ljgrohn
10-15-2011, 01:59 AM
GA, thanks for getting a great thread going. :)

Another question for all you guys out there along this same vein. I have toying with the idea of creating and Kydex sheath for a couple of my folders. Do any of you anticipate any serious problems with this particular solution? I was thinking my first experiment might be with the Benchmade Griptillian folder.

Also someone mentioned the SOCP earlier. My wife has taken to carrying the Benchmade SOCP knife when going to work out. She carries it inside the waist band in the factory sheath. We've done a couple hours now with the trainer you can get for it and it is super effective as a "don't rape me knife."

JHC
10-15-2011, 04:15 PM
Yeow, capable looking knife. http://www.benchmade.com/products/176

NickA
11-04-2011, 04:56 PM
Are there any good wave folders anybody would reccommend?

Spyderco and Emerson are the only two I know of (Emerson came up with it and licenses it to Spyderco), but Spyderco's wave seems to be better in my opinion.
Still looking into small fixed blades but in the meantime I "ghetto waved" a spyderco with a zip tie and have been messing around with it. I wouldn't trust the zip tie for SD but it's sold me on the concept. Only concern is have is if a longer blade like the endura might foul on a shirt or whatever. I'll be looking into a waved Delica for sure.

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Wondering Beard
11-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Couple of questions:
You guys that have had success in FoF with a folder I'm curious about what you used and where you carried it- particularly how did it open (thumbstud, Spyderco hole, auto) and tip up or tip down, etc. And was it clipped to front pocket, back pocket or what.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Front pocket of my jeans both left and right side.

I've done FOF with both tip up and tip down and so long as you practice drawing and opening your knife often to the degree that it becomes as "unconscious" and natural as drawing your handgun from a holster, it will work fine. It is of course slower than with a fixed blade and can be more easily messed up when "rolling and tumbling" with your opponent and that's why I prefer tip up; I get much more of my folder in my hand that way from the beginning of the draw and at the very least I can use it as an impact weapon more easily.

I prefer the big Spyderco holes or the Emerson disks because they are difficult to miss with your thumb; I have missed the studs when just practicing by my lonesome.

One thing about the "wave", it loses its usefulness the moment space gets really cramped (i.e. on your back or against a wall) because you don't have the space for all that elbow movement and you have to resort to regular manual opening but there's a chance the "wave" will catch on your pocket anyway which can lead to cut fingers and screwed up opening. I asked Ernie Emerson about that last year at a knife show and he told me that he just applies more pressure on the blade where the disk is and it comes out fine. I've been practicing that and so far it has worked.

Just my two devalued cents

JodyH
11-27-2011, 10:30 PM
Anyone have any "Knife 101" videos or web sites that give some of the basics on knife fighting.
I know just enough about knives to be slightly more dangerous to my opponent than I am to myself... just slightly.

JHC
11-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Anyone have any "Knife 101" videos or web sites that give some of the basics on knife fighting.
I know just enough about knives to be slightly more dangerous to my opponent than I am to myself... just slightly.

For a spell I was studying the escrima oriented Filipino styles but after a spell and listening to different points of view I think that form is rather specialized for a place in the world where few are wearing much heaving clothing for one thing. Slashing has it's place but "I think" that the cruder simple stabbing hard as hell to the most vital regions is probably a more executable self defense method. All that from a night at Holiday Inn Express. Worth what you paid for it. ;)

But if there are any "instinctive" methods of using a weapon, while IMO point shooting a pistol is NOT one of them, stabbing and clubbing probably are. It's not as difficult to figure out as conventional wisdom may have made it out to be for a long time. The knife vs knife dueling which is probably least likely to ever be involved in is where its extremely difficult and just a lose-lose less scenario.

NickA
11-28-2011, 07:13 PM
Has anyone done knife training with Michael de Bethencourt? I know he's well regarded in the snub field, hadn't heard anything about his knife stuff.

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Wondering Beard
11-29-2011, 01:03 PM
Anyone have any "Knife 101" videos or web sites that give some of the basics on knife fighting.
I know just enough about knives to be slightly more dangerous to my opponent than I am to myself... just slightly.

I have not tried them personally but I would imagine what Shivworks and Kelly McCann (through Paladin Press) produce is of high quality and very much pure fighting/defense oriented rather than just learning a martial art.



For a spell I was studying the escrima oriented Filipino styles but after a spell and listening to different points of view I think that form is rather specialized for a place in the world where few are wearing much heaving clothing for one thing. Slashing has it's place but "I think" that the cruder simple stabbing hard as hell to the most vital regions is probably a more executable self defense method. All that from a night at Holiday Inn Express. Worth what you paid for it. ;)

But if there are any "instinctive" methods of using a weapon, while IMO point shooting a pistol is NOT one of them, stabbing and clubbing probably are. It's not as difficult to figure out as conventional wisdom may have made it out to be for a long time. The knife vs knife dueling which is probably least likely to ever be involved in is where its extremely difficult and just a lose-lose less scenario.

The slashing vs thrusting debate has always been to me a bit like caliber X vs caliber Y. It doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people think.

When shooting we always talk about shot placement, with a knife it's pretty much the same IMO. Some targets on the body are made for slashing (tendons, ligaments, muscles ..), some for thrusting (internal organs, some arteries ..); all that matters is that you damage what you can get at, and cut the fight short as best you can.

I've studied the Filipino systems for a while. I don't think they're the end all be all of knife fighting systems but they did teach me angles, distances and footwork quite well.

Knife dueling is certainly the least likely thing we could get involved in in the US (in other countries much less so) but training based on it does have its advantages, learning footwork, distances and how to target, for example, can really increase one's skill. I look at it in the same way that I look at IPSC and IDPA: it's not hardcore training but it can be (when approached right) really good practice.

Btw, I am no expert on the matter. I like knives, I've trained with them and think about their use (I get abroad often enough where knives are all I can get that it matters to me) and that's it. Whatever I write can always be wrong and I'm always more than happy to be corrected and taught stuff I didn't know.

Caboose
11-29-2011, 02:52 PM
I have not tried them personally but I would imagine what Shivworks and Kelly McCann (through Paladin Press) produce is of high quality and very much pure fighting/defense oriented rather than just learning a martial art.
Disclaimer: I'm not even remotely an expert on knife fighting etc. The insight I offer is from the perspective of one new to knife work, and what made the light bulb come on for me personally, while any other attempts to gain knowledge generally went over my head.

I will second the suggestion for the Shivworks DVDs. I've seen both Reverse Edge Methods I and II. The instruction is clear, concise, and is clearly very well thought out. It's a very good starting point, and you shouldn't feel like it's way over your head; or at least I didn't, and I'm green as hell. I found it easy to understand, and didn't feel like I needed to be Bruce Lee to be able to make use of it.

The one caveat I will add, is that the instruction is primarily for reverse grip, edge in (point down, edge toward the wrist) but I believe the principles can be used as general guidelines and applied to almost any style. For me, watching the DVDs gave me a desire to make Reverse Edge Methods my primary focus for knife work. If the opportunity ever prevented itself to attend a REM class from Southnarc, I'd be all over it.

JHC
11-29-2011, 03:37 PM
the instruction is primarily for reverse grip, edge in (point down, edge toward the wrist) but I believe the principles can be used as general guidelines and applied to almost any style. For me, watching the DVDs gave me a desire to make Reverse Edge Methods my primary focus for knife work. If the opportunity ever prevented itself to attend a REM class from Southnarc, I'd be all over it.

Good stuff right there. Great power can be generated that way. Day and night difference from "reverse edge" IMO.

k_dub
12-06-2011, 01:01 AM
Has anyone done knife training with Michael de Bethencourt? I know he's well regarded in the snub field, hadn't heard anything about his knife stuff.

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Yes, great class to get exposed to the fundamentals. He keeps the techniques simple and delivers the material well.

Another person to consider is Steve Tarani. In his intro class he covers both fixed and folding edged weapons. Very professional in his delivery and covers a lot of material in two days.

What I got out of both courses was to become more comfortable with the idea of using a knife defensively and understand how dangerous someone with a knife can be.

Neither course will teach you to be a knife fighter and it is made clear early on why.

NickA
12-06-2011, 09:08 AM
Thanks k_dub, sounds like exactly what I need. He's doing a 1 day folding knife class literally 15 minutes from my house so I'll try to make it.

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ToddG
12-06-2011, 09:12 AM
Michael (El Bobo) is a genuinely good guy and a truly unique instructor. If you don't learn and have stomach cramps from laughing too hard, you should ask your parents why they lobotomized you as a child.

NickA
12-06-2011, 09:46 AM
you should ask your parents why they lobotomized you as a child.
Hell you've met me, that should be obvious:)
Thanks again, definitely going to sign up.



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will_1400
01-22-2012, 12:09 PM
I haven't seen this video posted anywhere. It covers pretty well why blades aren't to be underestimated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9DOBW55CCg

JHC
01-22-2012, 01:50 PM
Excellent vid Al. Thanks