Self defense against neighbor's dog?

[olstyn]

I live in a condo. Two nights ago, I got home from a social event at about midnight. After parking my car in my garage, I walked to the mailbox, collected my junk mail, and walked back to my garage. As I was getting close to my garage, the neighbor across the parking lot opened his garage door, and his pit mix came charging out at me. I stopped, faced it, and yelled "BACK OFF" as loud as I could. Thankfully, that was enough to reset the dog's thought process, and then the owner started yelling at it as well, which turned off the dog's aggression.

The dog stopped about 7 or 8 yards from me. My thought process after the fact is that the dog had about 5 more feet of aggressive travel before my hand went to my gun, and 5 more feet after that before I'd draw on it and decide whether to shoot based on whether it kept coming. The fact that my neighbor and his other, non-threatening dog, along with an occupied condo building, would have been downrange obviously complicates the situation. There would sort of have been a backstop in that I'd have been shooting at a downward angle in order to hit the dog, but ricochets are obviously a concern if I was to miss the dog.

Shooting my neighbor's dog is not something I'd like to do, especially since I'd like to keep the fact that I carry a gun private information, but I'm also not willing to let it bite me before I take action. What does the forum think about that type of situation? Where do you guys & girls draw the line with regard to aggressive dogs?

[Cookie Monster]

No offensive to dog owners but people are crazy about their dogs, the dog is family (which I can get).

If I wanted to live in the neighborhood for a while and depending on the dog/situation. I'd probably wait for a bite and then knife the dog, my wife and kids around a different story.

You shoot the dog without any injury to you, the puppy with always be the most gentle, loving thing that cuddled with their newborn and never wanted to hurt anyone or anything.

Bad situation. I lived in an apartment behind a house and the owners had three huge dogs that barked and growled everytime I came home. I ended up keeping dog treats in the truck.

[BaiHu]

In a non-CCW state (NJ), we all have leash laws here, but that doesn't mean anything. Shit happens. I find friendliness with my neighbors helps. Dogs get into scraps from being on leash. Friends one day and then enemies the next. All due to not being able to control their own environment. Most dogs, IMO, are startled by 'others' being near their owners that they cannot identify.

My own dog will bark, run down the stairs (we live in a townhouse style condo) and look like Kujo when new people (or even old friends) walk into the house behind us. He's very concerned that we don't know they're there. Once he recognizes this again, he yields to our control and lavishes company with wiggles and kisses. It can freak people out even when we warn them or it's happened before.

Short story long, dogs are unpredictable and engaging your neighbor in a neighborly way might switch the bulb on in his head to not let the dogs see you before he does so he can either leash or control them first and foremost. It's a warning shot over the bow without saying, "I'm gonna shoot your dogs the next time I see them charging me."

[LittleLebowski]

If you're worried about the backstop, just take the bite, and then point blank shoot the dog. It's not a Cane Corso (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_Corso). Or take the bite, beat the shit out of the dog, and sue. Also get it on record if the dog is an actual problem and not just barking. Call your local ACO (Animal Control Officer). You could also tell the neighbor if the dog rushes out barking again, you'll talk to the authorities. Odds are that the dog was doing nothing different than a Lab rushing out barking.

Fun fact: it's been over 80 years since a cop was killed by a dog.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.amazon.com/SeaSense-Mini-Air-Horn-1-4oz/dp/B0019LZTKU

Shooting a dog sucks, even when you have to. Air horns are fantastic, though. Dogs will do a forward roll trying to stop and then backing up. They also remember. I used to have issues with dogs while bicycling in rural areas and an airhorn in the water bottle holder convinced them to leave me be.

[Peally]

As has been said some (most) dogs are just posturing retards (mine does it in a way similar to BaiHu's, lots of running around and barking until he gets some love) but that's no reason to compromise your personal security. BB is right, there are a lot of less than lethal options that will probably work great. Chatting up the neighbor might help too if they're friendly and receptive.

If it's already latched on to your arm just shoot the damn thing if you can, of course.

[Josh Runkle]

Sounds like a preemptive strike of a steak soaked in anti-freeze thrown in the dog's backyard should be in order.

[BaiHu]

...Chatting up the neighbor might help too if they're friendly and receptive.

I feel like this deserves more highlight. If you get to know your neighbor, then you will know ahead of time if it's the dogs or the owner that's going to be the real problem.

I like the air horn idea. I forgot about that from a GJM thread or someone else's.

[JDM]

http://www.amazon.com/SeaSense-Mini-Air-Horn-1-4oz/dp/B0019LZTKU

Shooting a dog sucks, even when you have to. Air horns are fantastic, though. Dogs will do a forward roll trying to stop and then backing up. They also remember. I used to have issues with dogs while bicycling in rural areas and an airhorn in the water bottle holder convinced them to leave me be.

I have never heard this. Awesome idea. Thanks!

[HCM]

Sounds like a preemptive strike of a steak soaked in anti-freeze thrown in the dog's backyard should be in order.

This is a good way to buy yourself a lot of trouble, and not just legal trouble.

[olstyn]

Sounds like a preemptive strike of a steak soaked in anti-freeze thrown in the dog's backyard should be in order.

I get that you're trying to be humorous, but I'm surprised anyone on this board would even suggest something like that. I don't have any interest in killing the dog; I just want its owner to establish firm control/leash it when outdoors.


As has been said some (most) dogs are just posturing retards (mine does it in a way similar to BaiHu's, lots of running around and barking until he gets some love) but that's no reason to compromise your personal security. BB is right, there are a lot of less than lethal options that will probably work great. Chatting up the neighbor might help too if they're friendly and receptive.


I feel like this deserves more highlight. If you get to know your neighbor, then you will know ahead of time if it's the dogs or the owner that's going to be the real problem.

I definitely intend to speak with him about it when/if the opportunity arises, and I figure I'll try to frame it as looking out for the dog's well being in terms of if it bites the little old lady two garages down from me, she won't be able to defend herself and the dog would likely be destroyed by the authorities at that point. The problem is that he's the boyfriend/baby daddy of the daughter of the person who owns the unit in question, so it's a bit of a weird situation.


http://www.amazon.com/SeaSense-Mini-Air-Horn-1-4oz/dp/B0019LZTKU

Shooting a dog sucks, even when you have to. Air horns are fantastic, though. Dogs will do a forward roll trying to stop and then backing up. They also remember. I used to have issues with dogs while bicycling in rural areas and an airhorn in the water bottle holder convinced them to leave me be.

Interesting. Not sure if I'm willing to carry one more thing, as I only have so many pockets, but especially in the biking context, I can see the utility.


If you're worried about the backstop, just take the bite, and then point blank shoot the dog. It's not a Cane Corso (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_Corso). Or take the bite, beat the shit out of the dog, and sue. Also get it on record if the dog is an actual problem and not just barking. Call your local ACO (Animal Control Officer). You could also tell the neighbor if the dog rushes out barking again, you'll talk to the authorities. Odds are that the dog was doing nothing different than a Lab rushing out barking.

Yeah, I figure it probably was just barking, but for the few seconds it was running at me and barking, it seemed like more than that, and it served as a bit of a "what if" wakeup call for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

Interesting. Not sure if I'm willing to carry one more thing, as I only have so many pockets, but especially in the biking context, I can see the utility.


You don't have to carry it all the time. Set it by your keys and walk with it to your garage, put it in the car. Repeat on the walk back to your door. It's really quite small, but yeah, it's not something you want to carry constantly just because. Carry it when the threat is most likely.

It can be a PITA, but it's less of a PITA than shooting a dog. Folks take it REAL personal.

[Erik]

I definitely intend to speak with him about it when/if the opportunity arises, and I figure I'll try to frame it as looking out for the dog's well being in terms of if it bites the little old lady two garages down from me, she won't be able to defend herself and the dog would likely be destroyed by the authorities at that point. The problem is that he's the boyfriend/baby daddy of the daughter of the person who owns the unit in question, so it's a bit of a weird situation.


Why not just frame it as, "Your dog scared the crap out of me the other night. Is he cool and can I meet him under better circumstances?"

[olstyn]

Good point on the air horn BBIs, I'll seriously consider keeping one in the car. Believe me, shooting the dog is not something I want to do; if I had a dog and someone killed it, whatever the circumstances, I'd probably be looking at the dog as innocent until proven guilty and the human as guilty until proven innocent. I'm human, after all, and humans are just wired that way about family members unless we have long-term preexisting evidence to the contrary.

Regarding the conversation, Erik, I'll probably use your suggestion minus the "scared the crap out of" part as a start to the conversation, as that's probably the friendliest way to begin. Who knows, maybe it's an awesome dog and it was just going into "protection" mode because it doesn't know me. I do want to impress upon him that some people might be a lot more alarmed than I was (my wife, for example).

[olstyn]

Another question on this subject: how do dogs typically react to getting hit with a 200+ lumen strobe from a flashlight, assuming it's dark out?

[Josh Runkle]

I suspect this is hyberbole or that you were trying to be funny and accidently forgot the :). If not, poisoning someone's dog is a crime and we frown (pretty severely) upon people advocating criminal acts around here. But you know that, so I'm pretty sure it's just hyperbole.

Yes. It was.

[Hambo]

Why not just frame it as, "Your dog scared the crap out of me the other night. Is he cool and can I meet him under better circumstances?"


This ^^^

What is it about dogs and snakes that brings out some sort of primal fear?

[GJM]

What is it about dogs and snakes that brings out some sort of primal fear?

you are afraid the snake will bite your dog.

[fixer]

I have some hard fought lessons learned with loose dogs.

For some reason W. Tx has a loose/feral dog problem of epic proportions. Although I've noticed since I've been a PITA to the local PD about calling in loose dogs every chance I get and low oil prices, things have calmed down dramatically.

That being said:

#1) carry a less lethal option.
#2) When you know for a 100% certainty you are the target of a blood-enraged large breed dog--DO NOT GO HANDS ON. Yeah they aren't cane corsos but any large breed over 50 lbs will give you, the folks you are with, or your dog a VERY expensive trip to the hospital and at a minimum ruin your month. Along with this...read up on dog body language.
#3) The dog's owner WILL BE WORSE THAN THE DOG if you have to put it down. Thus 'less lethal it' and move on.
#4) I suggest NOT talking to the dog's owner and instead if a conversation must take place about the owner's ability to control the animal, let the police do it.. I can't emphasize this enough. No need to get into verbal judo, that may escalate, over a dog issue.
#5) Shooting an attacking dog is WAY harder than it looks or seems.

[Mitch]

Another question on this subject: how do dogs typically react to getting hit with a 200+ lumen strobe from a flashlight, assuming it's dark out?

I have a German Shepard that couldn't give 2 shits less about high lumen flashlights. I wouldn't count on that doing much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

you are afraid the snake will bite your dog.

In my case that's true, and the only reason I concern myself with snakes at all. I know many people who kill every single snake they see, which is Florida is quite a few, most of which are harmless. These dog defense threads pop up often enough that I think there are a lot of people with dog phobias.

[Vinh]

It's ridiculous good people have to modify their behavior (air horns for bikes and walking around, less lethal, etc) because of bad owners. Take the bite, shoot the dog, train one-handed manipulations, prepare for retaliation against your family. Don't waste your life thinking about how to go out of your way to avoid harming the fecal dog/owner. If not this one, there will be another.

[olstyn]

I have a German Shepard that couldn't give 2 shits less about high lumen flashlights. I wouldn't count on that doing much.

That's why I asked. Thanks for the real-world experience.


#1) carry a less lethal option.
#2) When you know for a 100% certainty you are the target of a blood-enraged large breed dog--DO NOT GO HANDS ON. Yeah they aren't cane corsos but any large breed over 50 lbs will give you, the folks you are with, or your dog a VERY expensive trip to the hospital and at a minimum ruin your month. Along with this...read up on dog body language.
#3) The dog's owner WILL BE WORSE THAN THE DOG if you have to put it down. Thus 'less lethal it' and move on.
#4) I suggest NOT talking to the dog's owner and instead if a conversation must take place about the owner's ability to control the animal, let the police do it.. I can't emphasize this enough. No need to get into verbal judo, that may escalate, over a dog issue.
#5) Shooting an attacking dog is WAY harder than it looks or seems.

All of that makes sense, although I still feel like I should talk to the owner, because ultimately, conflicts are his fault and responsibility, not his dog's. If he blows me off, then at least I walk away knowing I tried. I will definitely look up some info on dog body language. I know enough to know that I could stand to learn a lot more, at bare minimum the difference between a dog that's bluffing and a dog that really means it.


It's ridiculous good people have to modify their behavior (air horns for bikes and walking around, less lethal, etc) because of bad owners. Take the bite, shoot the dog, train one-handed manipulations, prepare for retaliation against your family. Don't waste your life thinking about how to go out of your way to avoid harming the fecal dog/owner. If not this one, there will be another.

That's a pretty bleak view. I'm not looking at serious modification of my life over it; I honestly started this thread because I was curious where others would draw the line in a similar situation. Looks like a lot of people would opt to get bitten, which I'm not too keen on, although I guess it's better from both social and litigation standpoints.


These dog defense threads pop up often enough that I think there are a lot of people with dog phobias.

I'm not dog-phobic; in fact I like dogs, and the majority of dogs I meet seem to respect me. Also, I didn't panic the other night; I just started thinking that it might be good to have a more well-defined "line in the sand" with regard to aggro dogs.

[drjaydvm]

Most dogs are all bark and no bite. Your typical suburban large breed dog is most likely just posturing if it charges and barks at you. Feral dogs, a pack of pit bulls running around, etc is different can of worms. Trust me, people go bananas when someone harms their dog- whether justified or not. I'm the one who has to deal with them and the injured pet at the emergency vet. I have a pretty good feel for dog behavior after 25 years in veterinary medicine, and I don't think that in the majority of the situations like you described lethal force is needed.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I think talking to the owner is the thing a good person and neighbor ought to do. After the incident has settled. Talking to the owner when tensions may be high is an awful idea, as fixer has found out personally if I recall correctly.

My dog hates air horns. So that seems reasonable. I've had great results using OC to dissuade loose dogs when walking. 3 times, I think. Maybe 4. A good shot ahead of the nose from a stream sprayer and away it goes.

I do agree with the above notion that a vast majority of dogs in the circumstances you are encountering this one will be dissuaded by firm language and strong posture on your part.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

I don't think that in the majority of the situations like you described lethal force is needed.

I don't disagree; I'm just trying to figure out where the line is. After reading some of the earlier replies, I started googling around for dog body language and behavior stuff, but I came up kind of empty regarding the difference between a dog that's bluffing and a dog that seriously wants to do harm. It seems like the differences might be subtle.


I do agree with the above notion that a vast majority of dogs in the circumstances you are encountering this one will be dissuaded by firm language and strong posture on your part.

And that's exactly how this worked out. I don't think there are any real tensions at this point, and I intend to be friendly rather than confrontational when I talk to the owner. Hopefully it's received well, and if not, as I said earlier, at least I'll have tried.

[drjaydvm]

Head down, tail not wagging, fast trot directly towards you, low growl- I'm worried. Lots of woofing and stomping- not worried, just bluffing usually. Dogs usually respond to aggressive movement and noise on your part by backing off.

[BaiHu]

Head down, tail not wagging, fast trot directly towards you, low growl- I'm worried. Lots of woofing and stomping- not worried, just bluffing usually. Dogs usually respond to aggressive movement and noise on your part by backing off.
Maybe a separate thread needs to be made, but I'd love to hear you talk about "leashed" behavior. I find that dogs being restrained makes humans & dogs alike think something worse than posturing is going on.

I often quip that my dog says "I want to play" in German and German never sounds nice.

[drjaydvm]

I think dogs behave badly on the leash the same reason certain ones behave badly when I walk in an exam room- they are either being protective of the owner or think they can behave aggressively because they have back up (the owner) if someone calls their bluff. My solution in the hospital is to remove the dog from the owner. You'd be surprised how docile/scared they become if the owner isn't with them.

[BaiHu]

I think dogs behave badly on the leash the same reason certain ones behave badly when I walk in an exam room- they are either being protective of the owner or think they can behave aggressively because they have back up (the owner) if someone calls their bluff. My solution in the hospital is to remove the dog from the owner. You'd be surprised how docile/scared they become if the owner isn't with them.
Thanks for confirming my beliefs. I've always felt like letting my dog off leash "to meet" the dog he's posturing towards or vice versa would end in a quick "play pounce" and new friend or a quick territorial gnash of teeth and wrestling and then it'd be done. But we don't live in that kind of world.

Kids nor dogs run free outside to make friends and learn to deal with bullies on their own anymore.

[drjaydvm]

Most of the time off leash they will meet, sniff each other's backsides, possibly a quick snarl and snap if they don't like what they find and then it's over. It does seem like the meet and greet on the leash turns into an actual fight more frequently than off leash for the reasons I mentioned above. It is important to remember that it is impossible to predict exactly what's going to happen when two dogs interact and sometimes it goes horribly wrong quickly, especially when there is a size discrepancy- we call the resulting traumatic injuries "big dog- little dog".

[BaiHu]

Most of the time off leash they will meet, sniff each other's backsides, possibly a quick snarl and snap if they don't like what they find and then it's over. It does seem like the meet and greet on the leash turns into an actual fight more frequently than off leash for the reasons I mentioned above. It is important to remember that it is impossible to predict exactly what's going to happen when two dogs interact and sometimes it goes horribly wrong quickly, especially when there is a size discrepancy- we call the resulting traumatic injuries "big dog- little dog".
Agreed. I have a neighbor who is the "scared of her own dog so much that she's not sure if she can handle her dog", but she rescued her dog, so she feels committed. Will she get her dog socialized? No, because she's afraid her dog will bite other dogs.

I swear if I had her dog for a week, the dog would be fine. The dog is very sweet with people, but freaks out about my dog precisely because the owner is always nervous, because they used to be friends.

They would romp and play bite until one day she got real nervous and high pitched about their play. Boom, her dog bites mine. Mine defends himself and we separate them. A little blood but no foul. Now she's trapped her poor dog in this antisocial world of only her owners. Where this dog will never get better unless old age mellows her.

Love to hear your thoughts on my thoughts and call me on BS. Great having a DVM aboard unless I missed someone else.

[SeriousStudent]

Agree with BaiHu.

Doctor, welcome aboard, and thanks for your contributions. I would also appreciate a separate thread discussing canine behavior and remedies, it is a frequent topic of thought and discussion.

Thanks again.

[Danny304]

Another question on this subject: how do dogs typically react to getting hit with a 200+ lumen strobe from a flashlight, assuming it's dark out?

This has saved me countless times. I know someone mentioned their dog shows no effect when getting hit with a light. But knock on wood, every dog I've shined a light in its face stopped. The dog didn't turn away and run, but he stopped and began pacing side by side. If it is a dog you see regularly, you might want to try some medium size milk bones. I keep a box in my work car. Dog comes out barking, toss a milk bone right to him, after a few visits his tail is wagging when I show up. Of course I'm carrying an M&P .40 if the light and milk bones fail to work.

[Peally]

It's ridiculous good people have to modify their behavior (carrying guns and knives and walking around, less lethal, etc) because of bad people. Take the stab, shoot the guy, train one-handed manipulations, prepare for retaliation against your family. Don't waste your life thinking about how to go out of your way to avoid harming the fecal person. If not this one, there will be another.


FIFY

Oh and by the way, welcome to the real world. It's not all roses and fairies, we need to learn to deal with adversity and not every intelligent solution is "shoot it".

[Peally]

This has saved me countless times. I know someone mentioned their dog shows no effect when getting hit with a light. But knock on wood, every dog I've shined a light in its face stopped. The dog didn't turn away and run, but he stopped and began pacing side by side. If it is a dog you see regularly, you might want to try some medium size milk bones. I keep a box in my work car. Dog comes out barking, toss a milk bone right to him, after a few visits his tail is wagging when I show up. Of course I'm carrying an M&P .40 if the light and milk bones fail to work.

Treats aren't a bad idea. Free food reverses a dog's opinions pretty quickly.

FWIW I unintentionally flash my dog all the time when I'm charging glow in the dark balls at night. He just stares into them like a dope waiting for me to throw the ball with a "it's beautiful" look in his eyes. That being said it's not a potential fight situation. I'd personally rely on treats, OC, or bullets as a backup to a light just in case.

[LittleLebowski]

Head down, tail not wagging, fast trot directly towards you, low growl- I'm worried. Lots of woofing and stomping- not worried, just bluffing usually. Dogs usually respond to aggressive movement and noise on your part by backing off.

Thank you.

[olstyn]

I often quip that my dog says "I want to play" in German and German never sounds nice.

"Silent Night" in the original German must be the exception that proves the rule. "O Tannenbaum," too. Maybe Germans only sing pleasant-sounding songs about Christmas? :)

[Clusterfrack]

My wife has a problem with a large standard poodle that lives next door to her Crossfit gym. It's bitten at least two women that she knows of. The latest time it charged her while she was running, the owner reassured her, "don't worry, he doesn't bite anymore".

[Clobbersaurus]

The link below is regarding a dog attack on Christmas day in Fort St. John, Canada. The senior who suffered the most serious wounds may lose his hands. It seems like a very strange situation, with the victim(s) not able to mount a capable defence.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/pit-bulls-attack-1.3386120


Bandaged from the tips of his fingers to above his elbows on both arms, Robin Elgie fades in and out of lucidity in an Edmonton hospital bed under the effects of heavy painkillers.

"If the RCMP didn't get there when they did it would have been bad, because I just didn't have the strength anymore," Elgie said. "I knew I was getting tore up, I don't know if I realized how bad. I did lose a lot of blood."

The 66-year-old heavy-duty mechanic and machine operator said he is fortunate to be alive after a vicious Christmas Day attack inside his trailer home by two marauding pit bulls.

Victim of brutal B.C. dog attack flown to Edmonton hospital
Elgie said the attack began after his partner, Wendy Lee Baker, 51, opened the trailer's door to let in their small dog. The pit bulls charged through the open door, tore the family's 15-year-old cat to pieces but ignored their small dog.

Elgie managed to get between the dogs, while Baker, after being bitten several times in a futile attempt to save the cat, escaped to a bedroom and called 911.

Out in the living room, Elgie was in a fight for his life. He said he grabbed a shelf and tried to beat back the dogs, but the shelf slipped from his hands. He said the dogs were small but the power of their jaws and the intensity of their attack shocked him.

He said the onslaught eventually drove him back into a chair.

Weakened from blood loss and exhaustion, he said all he could do was use his arms to try to protect his face and neck from the relentless biting.

RCMP shoot dogs

The two dogs continued to rip and tear at his arms until RCMP officers arrived.

The officers first tried sedating the dogs, but when that failed one officer shot a dog at close range inside the trailer. The second dog was also shot but escaped and was later tracked down and dispatched with a gunshot.

Sheryl Elgie, who lives in Prince George, drove to Edmonton where her father had been airlifted for emergency surgery.

'When I first went to see Dad he was in a lot of pain," she said. "Dad has always been such a strong man, so it was hard for him, for us, to see him in so much pain. He was more worried about me than himself."

Amputation possible

Elgie said he has had four surgeries and needs more surgery to reconnect torn tendons and muscles. He will also need skin grafts. His biggest fear is that there will be insufficient blood circulation to his hands, which could mean amputation.

Baker was treated for bites at a Fort St. John hospital and released, but is still dealing with the trauma of the horrific attack.

Elgie family
In this 2011 photograph, Robin Elgie poses with his daughter, Sheryl, right, and grandchildren. Elgie could lose the use of his arms and hands after he was savaged by a pair of pit bulls in his Fort St. John trailer. (Family photo)

Sheryl Elgie said friends in Fort St. John went to clean the couple's trashed trailer and were shocked by the scene.

"It was worse than a horror movie," she said. "It was like something out of a nightmare. There was blood absolutely everywhere.
Friends and even strangers in Fort St. John have rallied around the family. An online fundraising campaign has already surpassed its $10,000 goal.

"I'm completely blown away with everybody's generosity and I'm just so thankful for everybody out there who has been able to pitch in and help my dad as much as possible," Sheryl Elgie said."

[fixer]

Head down, tail not wagging, fast trot directly towards you, low growl- I'm worried. Lots of woofing and stomping- not worried, just bluffing usually. Dogs usually respond to aggressive movement and noise on your part by backing off.

Yep ...had this multiple times. It is what I look for.

One time is when things exploded with the dogs owner when I confronted the owners just before their dog's behavior became an emergency room visit for me. Another time, with another dog, I tried using 'noise and aggressive movement' and posturing and it too exploded into a blood-enraged dog trying to literally kill me. Think dog fight-- but you are the dog's adversary. It is a totally different world then a dog just menacing you.

I swear, I think we need ECQC with dogs or something.

[LittleLebowski]

I think the fear over dogs is overblown.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the fear over dogs is overblown.

I've been bitten 3 times over the years by strange dogs. Once was a doberman when I was a kid, bit me on the calf causing me to crash my bicycle and then fled. Second was an Akita, and if I'd had a gun I would have shot it in a heartbeat. That was a vicious dog and a vicious fight and it left me with scars on my forearm, and that was biting through a heavy denim sheep skin lined coat. The third was a pit bull that lunged at me, bit my forearm, and then I shot it. I learned a valuable lesson about running with head phones that day.

I'm not afraid of dogs. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not taking a bite I don't have to either, though.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think the fear over dogs is overblown.

I like dogs. I tend to agree that fear over anything is most likely overblown. However, I found the stats below, which may help put things in perspective.

http://www.cdc.gov/features/dog-bite-prevention/

http://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/


According to the CDC, more than 4.7 million dog-bite incidents occur in the United States every year. Of those 4.7 million attacks, 800,000 of these Americans will seek medical attention — half of these are children — and 386,000 of these Americans will need emergency medical treatment.

As opposed to assaults:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/aggravated-assault


In 2014, there were an estimated 741,291 aggravated assaults in the nation. The estimated number of aggravated assaults increased 2.0 percent when compared with the 2013 estimate and decreased 14.0 percent when compared with the 2005 estimate.

[drjaydvm]

In regards to the incident in Canada- 2 or more dogs will often act like a pack and will be more likely to back up their aggression with an actual attack (much like people I suppose). Even a pack of 5 chihuahuas will act like a vicious little gang- I've seem them turn on one of their own and severely injure or kill the weak or injured dog. I don't want you guys to think I'm saying I would never shoot an aggressive dog- I would and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. In just most cases it's probably not necessary to escalate to deadly force. I'm working nights this week, later tonight or this weekend I'll sit down and try to write down what I think are the important points about dog behavior. I haven't had any formal training in behavior since veterinary school 20 years ago, but I've interacted with tens of thousands of dogs since then. My reactions are instinctive now, I need to really think about what cues I'm responding to when I interact with a dog. If any of you have ever watched a little 12 year old girl manhandle a 1600 pound thoroughbred you would understand that like most everything else that is talked about on this forum, mindset and attitude are way more important than physical strength or size when dealing with potentially dangerous animals.

[SeriousStudent]

Thank you, Doctor, I'll look forward to your thread.

And I grew up on a cattle ranch around animals of all sizes since the age of 5. I completely agree with you about mindset and attitude.

[MRW]

Another vote for OC. I've also used it on feral cats. One of the areas I used to walk my dog had a lot feral cats who wouldn't back down when my dog approached them.

He didn't know the difference between them and something benign and if they ran, the prey drive would kick in and he would want to give chase. A quick shot of OC in front of them would cause them to run off.

It'll work on dogs too. Lots of sensitive nasal tissue to impact on a dog. It will cause some discomfort but it will pass after awhile. A little will go a long way.

This should all be a 2nd line defense after you talk to an owner. Unfortunately that doesn't always work. Some owners think their fur-babies are incapable of doing wrong despite evidence to the contrary.