Open Carry versus Obvious Concealment

[Chance]

Open carry will become legal here in Texas tomorrow. While I don't think open carry is a very good idea from a tactical standpoint, I'm curious to hear opinions about a weapon that's openly displayed, versus a weapon that's technically concealed, but fairly obvious.

When we're doing some sort of physical activity (hiking, biking, et cetera), we often carry our pistols in something other than a holster, just for comfort. For instance, when I work around the yard, I usually wear my pistol in a Hill People Gear kit bag. You can't see the pistol, but I think it's fairly obvious what's in the bag (although a neighbor thought I was wearing body armor, which was interesting...). Same deal with a fanny pack, or a "shoot me first" vest: the weapon isn't displayed, but anyone paying attention can probably put two-and-two together.

So in that specific scenario, why would a pistol that's not visible but apparent be a better option than openly carrying your pistol in a quality retention holster?

[JodyH]

The more obvious your gun is, the more you stand out from the crowd. I prefer to blend in and try to exploit the "surprise cockfags!" advantage if I decide to intervene in a situation.
Any kind of obvious carry cuts into that advantage and takes away from my options to get involved or not. Concealed the decision to act is almost completely in my hands. Obvious carry, getting involved may be forced on me by the badguys or bystanders who see the gun.

I personally won't carry a handgun in anything except a concealed holster unless I'm out in the country and also carrying a rifle.
As soon as the rifle is put away, the handgun gets concealed.

[RoyGBiv]

Concealed but obvious is .....
1. Not as obvious as you might think
2. Harder for a BG to grab vs OC without retention

[Dropkick]

exploit the "surprise cockfags!" advantage
Classic!

[Beat Trash]

I technically open carry every day as a uniform LEO. But I live in a state that has had Open Carry for years. The only time I would feel comfortable with open carry when not in uniform is if I were in a rural environment, like working on the property, hunting, hiking/backpacking in remote areas.

Although a couple of years ago, I was driving at dusk through a re-vitalized neighborhood that bordered a more interesting neighborhood. I saw a young 20 something getting ready for a bike ride with his partner. He was wearing a HK pistol in a Safariland holster, open carry. To me, that made sense. a LOT of sense.

I also prefer the "surprise cockfags!" advantage. Although I've never quite trained with that as my verbal warning of pending use of force. Might have to try it more often, just to hear an investigator question a witness: "Did you hear the officer give any warnings prior to shooting? You did? Do you remember what he said? Officer he yelled..."

Open carry also brings up the topic of weapon retention. Something many do not take into consideration at all.

About a year ago, an incident in another part of my state made the news. Someone was open carrying their pistol in the sporting goods department of a Wal Mart (No this is not the beginning of a bad joke). A suspect felt that it was, "Free gun Friday" so he selected his favorite ball bat from the baseball section and acted as if he were being a ball bat. The suspect walked up behind the open carry person and started to strike him in the head without warning. The suspect then attempted to disarm the guy as he went down. Long story short, others assisted and the disarm was not successful. But had it been...

The huge obvious concealment flops that I feel everyone can figure out are the photographers vests or 5.11 vests, when you don't have an ultra complicated looking camera hanging around your neck. Or a fanny pouch while looking so nervous and up tight that your body language screams that something is out of place. Ranger jeans, flannel shirts and a John Deer hat don't naturally go with a fanny pack, just saying...

I would always conceal a gun if given a choice. New CCW holders automatically assume that everyone can instantly spot their weapon, no matter how concealed. My wife recently got her permit and started carrying. She felt the same, thinking that everyone on planet earth could see the Glock 43 printing when carried AWIB. But then I showed her an article in which some hot female had jeans painted on her naked lower half with body paint. Then a guy with a hidden camera followed her around NCY. She was naked form the waist down, except for body paint. Care to guess how many people even noticed that she was butt assed naked?

When in an urban environment, if given the option, conceal the gun.

[Chance]

The only time I would feel comfortable with open carry when not in uniform is if I were in a rural environment, like working on the property, hunting, hiking/backpacking in remote areas.

This is pretty much the scenario I have in mind. I agree with everyone in that openly carrying a pistol into Chipotle is a dumb idea.


Although a couple of years ago, I was driving at dusk through a re-vitalized neighborhood that bordered a more interesting neighborhood. I saw a young 20 something getting ready for a bike ride with his partner. He was wearing a HK pistol in a Safariland holster, open carry. To me, that made sense. a LOT of sense.

What about that scenario made sense?

[olstyn]

What about that scenario made sense?

Well, it's probably pretty difficult to execute a gun grab on someone who's traveling at 10+ MPH on a bike, so it seems like it would go from the "liability" column to the "deterrent" column. Also, if you're on a bike, you probably have to execute a one-handed draw, and that's a lot easier from open carry than concealment.

[Totem Polar]

Can't really add anything that JodyH didn't cover, with great elan.

On edit:

Well, it's probably pretty difficult to execute a gun grab on someone who's traveling at 10+ MPH on a bike, so it seems like it would go from the "liability" column to the "deterrent" column. Also, if you're on a bike, you probably have to execute a one-handed draw, and that's a lot easier from open carry than concealment.

Respectfully, I'm not feeling this. There are lots of available ways to take someone off a bike, and "it depends" is probably the answer to the second sentence. OMMV.

[olstyn]

Respectfully, I'm not feeling this. There are lots of available ways to take someone off a bike, and "it depends" is probably the answer to the second sentence. OMMV.

Fair enough; it was just my thought on the proposed scenario and why open carry might be reasonable. On some level, though, concealed at 4:00 turns into open as soon as you lean forward over the bike, and in order to take someone off a bike, you have to either catch up (hard if you're on foot) or ambush (varying difficulty depending on the environment).

As far as the general concepts of the thread go, I agree fully; I only open carry at pistol matches. Everywhere else, it stays hidden.

[Casual Friday]

Open carry in the woods, conceal carry everywhere else. Poorly concealed is still leaps and bounds better than open carry in an urban environment as far as I'm concerned. I've never came across an OC'er in public who seemed like a squared away individual. It almost always seems to be sub par guns in Serpa's or nylon sausage sacks. I will be adding "SURPRISE COCKFAGS" into my range training.

My kids and I were in a gun shop last weekend and there was a husband and wife open carrying their matching Springfield XDm's in those open top no retention paddle holsters that come with the gun, both were carrying them well behind the hip and the husband was walking around with his armed crossed at chest level. When we got in the truck my 9 year old daughter asked me what would prevent someone from just taking their guns out of the "holder thingies". I said "nothing". She said "That seems like a bad idea". We went and got ice cream, where she was allowed to get as many toppings as she wanted.

[Beat Trash]

This is pretty much the scenario I have in mind. I agree with everyone in that openly carrying a pistol into Chipotle is a dumb idea.



What about that scenario made sense?

On a moving bike, wearing a level II security holster and within walking distance of a neighborhood that lead the city that year in part 1 crimes (Fel Assault/shooting, homicides, agh robbery, ect).

Also on a bike, it may be harder to draw from concealment.

Now if you were riding your bike to the local Starbucks for coffee, then my opinion would be different.

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, it's probably pretty difficult to execute a gun grab on someone who's traveling at 10+ MPH on a bike, so it seems like it would go from the "liability" column to the "deterrent" column. Also, if you're on a bike, you probably have to execute a one-handed draw, and that's a lot easier from open carry than concealment.

Red lights. I had a passenger on a motorcycle experience an attempt gun grab while sitting at a red light. 3 young males. Fortunately for her they were stupid and not very dedicated, when it didn't come out with the first tug they fled.

If you're in a neighborhood where "deterrent" is a factor, there is someone there willing to assault you for that gun.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

He was wearing a HK pistol in a Safariland holster, open carry. To me, that made sense. a LOT of sense.




What about that scenario made sense?

It's so upsetting to me that Beat Trash's post also included the following:


some hot female had jeans painted on her naked lower half with body paint. Then a guy with a hidden camera followed her around NCY. She was naked form the waist down, except for body paint.

AND YOU FOCUSED ON THE GUY ON THE FREAKING BICYCLE.

[psalms144.1]

Never open carry. Period. As someone else has pointed out, unless you're going out of your way to derp, the chances are 94.6% of the people who see you (sadly, including most LE) will have NO CLUE you're armed. Most of the ones who can "make you" are deep in the derp themselves, and have spent hours studying the various "how to spot someone with a concealed weapon" flyers that have circulated on the interwebz over the years.

People always point to fanny packs as a "I have a gun" neon sign. I live/work in NY, where legal concealed carry of pistols is all but unknown, but I see plenty of folks wandering around with fanny packs in the summer. Likewise, when things get cool, if you're NOT wearing a vest of some kind, you look like a kook.

DON'T wear "gun" logo clothing. DON'T put gun logo stickers on your car. DON'T carry a molle-heavy backpack with terrorist hunting license stuff on it. And carry on, sharply.

[Dagga Boy]

Since getting my new truck, I am back to a fanny pack all the time due to the seats. Know what, everyone thinks I am simply Uncle Grandpa (look it up). I basically get the "trapped in the 80's" look as opposed to gun look. Also, Tom Givens wears a vest and usually a hat. Dude simply looks like an old eccentric guy who travels the world with his much younger trophy wife...:-)

[xmanhockey7]

Whatever. If people want to open carry I really don't care. IMO if you're going to open carry you should a good holster with some sort of retention like a Safariland 6678. The serious open carriers I know use good retention holsters and have legit reasons for open carrying. The Joe idiots that OC their XDs in the holster that came with the gun are just that, idiots. I feel the same way about people who conceal carry with cheap crappy holsters. Of course they'll tell you about how nobody has ever tried to take a concealed carriers gun, except when of course just that has happened before.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Since getting my new truck, I am back to a fanny pack all the time due to the seats. Know what, everyone thinks I am simply Uncle Grandpa (look it up). I basically get the "trapped in the 80's" look as opposed to gun look. Also, Tom Givens wears a vest and usually a hat. Dude simply looks like an old eccentric guy who travels the world with his much younger trophy wife...:-)

Dude... I wouldn't have made the connection, but it cannot be unmade now.

You are Uncle Grandpa's far more awesome doppelgänger.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

Red lights. I had a passenger on a motorcycle experience an attempt gun grab while sitting at a red light. 3 young males. Fortunately for her they were stupid and not very dedicated, when it didn't come out with the first tug they fled.

If you're in a neighborhood where "deterrent" is a factor, there is someone there willing to assault you for that gun.

Like I said to Sidheshooter earlier, I was just trying to come up with a reason why it might be sensible in Beat Trash's quoted scenario. Obviously it would behoove you to be alert if you had to stop in any kind of potentially crowded place like at a red light. Of course, it's important to be alert pretty much all the time on a bike, lest you get mowed down by a car.

[JAD]

Sergeant Uncle Grandpa, which becomes SUG, pronounced 'shoog.' That'll do.

[Dagga Boy]

Tactical Uncle Grandpa.....black fanny pack "TUG". I am a volunteer proctor at my kids school and everyone just thinks I am an old guy with a fanny pack. The kids came up with Uncle Grandpa (I guess his fanny pack talks...never seen it myself). Nobody has a clue what is inside....just an old guy." It's funny a couple we hang out with at our vacation place, the female half always wears a fanny pack. We just look like Snow birds visiting from Canada.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you're in a neighborhood where "deterrent" is a factor, there is someone there willing to assault you for that gun.

That is a great line.

[JodyH]

I was in a Whataburger at 4:30am this morning eating some breakfast and watching the manager mop up blood from the drunk she punched in the nose when a couple of awkward overweight middle aged white guys came in, one of which had some kind of "European shoulder bag" purse thing over his left shoulder.
He had his right hand in a Clint Eastwood'esqu cross draw position as he warily eyeballed a couple of young Ubanites who were doing what young Urbanites do in public (talk loudly in Ebonic code and gesticulate wildly).
I was thinking I had a real "Sheepdog" on guard right up until his hand came out with a wad of stripper dollars and loose change which exploded like confetti all over the counter and he drunkenly fell face first into the counter when he attempted to bend over and pick everything up.
Nope... not a "Sheepdog" just a metro/hipster/drunk dude.
I also watched a cute Latina in a hoochie skirt "help" him gather up his money while pocketing what looked like a $20.

All in all it was a pretty interesting 1/1/16 trip to Whataburger, and I was wrong in my assumptions on a murse only being used for guns.
Learn something new every day if you just pay attention.

[BehindBlueI's]

I was in a Whataburger at 4:30am this morning eating some breakfast and watching the manager mop up blood from the drunk she punched in the nose when a couple of awkward overweight middle aged white guys came in, one of which had some kind of "European shoulder bag" purse thing over his left shoulder.
He had his right hand in a Clint Eastwood'esqu cross draw position as he warily eyeballed a couple of young Ubanites who were doing what young Urbanites do in public (talk loudly in Ebonic code and gesticulate wildly).
I was thinking I had a real "Sheepdog" on guard right up until his hand came out with a wad of stripper dollars and loose change which exploded like confetti all over the counter and he drunkenly fell face first into the counter when he attempted to bend over and pick everything up.
Nope... not a "Sheepdog" just a metro/hipster/drunk dude.
I also watched a cute Latina in a hoochie skirt "help" him gather up his money while pocketing what looked like a $20.

All in all it was a pretty interesting 1/1/16 trip to Whataburger, and I was wrong in my assumptions on a murse only being used for guns.
Learn something new every day if you just pay attention.

Need more info on Latina and skirt.

Gun guys see fanny packs as holsters. Others see them as a sign you are not interested in heterosexual relations.

[JodyH]

Need more info on Latina and skirt.
When she bent over I could see 2017.

[23JAZ]

I also prefer the "surprise cockfags!" advantage. Might have to try it more often, just to hear an investigator question a witness: "Did you hear the officer give any warnings prior to shooting? You did? Do you remember what he said? Officer he yelled..."

Lord if there was ever a time I would want to see body cam footage that would be it!!! Lmao!

Always conceal as best as possible period. Don't be one of those idiots wearing a skin tight shirt covering a Glock 17 strong side. IMO there is no difference between those guys and the idiot walking around with an AR slung over his shoulder at Walmart.

[Chance]

I prefer to blend in and try to exploit the "surprise cockfags!" advantage if I decide to intervene in a situation.

I did not know that came from "Team America". I need to rewatch that movie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QMJlAAidQ

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Went to Bass Pro for sales. No OC sighted. However, the weather was crappy.

[Tamara]

DON'T wear "gun" logo clothing. DON'T put gun logo stickers on your car. DON'T carry a molle-heavy backpack with terrorist hunting license stuff on it. And carry on, sharply.

I am full of fail, apparently.

[Nephrology]

I am full of fail, apparently.

I allowed myself to put an S&W logo on my car because to most people it looks like a fancy monogram of my initials. Decided against the Glock sticker, as "G L O C K" is none too subtle.

[Hambo]

Others see them as a sign you are not interested in heterosexual relations.

Are you saying fanny pack users are doomed to extinction because they can't get a date?

[ShooterM9]

Are you saying fanny pack users are doomed to extinction because they can't get a date?

One can hope.

[JodyH]

Scene: JodyH at the 7 yard line facing a Pistol-Training.com target, ready to FAST. GJM and nyeti are seated facing each other across the range bench.

JodyH: "Yo, GJM is everything cool? Are we gonna shoot this drill or what?"
nyeti:" Tell that dude in the bunny fur hat to be cool, we'll shoot in a minute."
GJM: "Be cool bunny hat, everything's cool."
JodyH: "Screw you guys, I'm going to start shooting."
nyeti: "Tell that bunny hat to be cool."
GJM: "Be cool bunny hat. We cool?"
JodyH: "Yea, we're cool. I'll be over here doing some dry fire."

nyeti: "I want you to go to the Raptor and get me my fanny pack."
GJM: "Which one is it?"
nyeti: "The one that says Bad Mother F'er on it."

[Chance]

To try to drift this back onto the rails: is there a line between something like a fanny pack (which is noticed, but mostly ignored), and my Hill People kit bag (which is noticed, and mistaken for something else defense related)? Is something that conceals a weapon, but otherwise attracts attention, negating its purpose?

[BehindBlueI's]

To try to drift this back onto the rails: is there a line between something like a fanny pack (which is noticed, but mostly ignored), and my Hill People kit bag (which is noticed, and mistaken for something else defense related)? Is something that conceals a weapon, but otherwise attracts attention, negating its purpose?

I've never had someone carrying in a fanny pack experience a gun grab. Now, alone that's fairly useless information. It could mean people who fanny pack carry are not in the "transitional" neighborhoods where most gun grabs occur, or it could mean the thugs don't realize what's in it, or it could mean it's enough "retention" to get them to move on. I suspect the 3rd is not true, as many gun grabs have been coordinated multiple attacker scenarios where two or three armed suspects converge on the open carrier and take the weapon by force instead of by "pick-pocketing" their holster.

Now, the ugly truth is I do use a fanny pack sometimes. I'm married, so I'm not worried about being attractive any longer. ;) I use it in contexts where fanny packs are not out of the ordinary, though. At the gym, jogging, etc. It never gets a second glance in those situations, and I don't think a parking lot robber would see it as anything amiss. It allows me to carry a larger gun than I otherwise could in jogging attire, allows me to have a reload, etc. To me, any potential trade off is negated in that particular instance. I would not use a fanny pack for routine carry though. Aside from the debatable "is it concealed or not" argument, it takes two hands to draw from efficiently. I've seen a few folks who relied on having two hands available get killed because they didn't. They were tangled up with a bad guy before they could get their weapon into action, etc.

[LSP552]

To try to drift this back onto the rails: is there a line between something like a fanny pack (which is noticed, but mostly ignored), and my Hill People kit bag (which is noticed, and mistaken for something else defense related)? Is something that conceals a weapon, but otherwise attracts attention, negating its purpose?

I think it's about context. Using my HPG kit bag dinking around in Alaska, absolutely. I don't wear it around town at home because it's not something you see here. It's out of place so would likely draw attention, just because. There are times I wear a green Tommy Gun Pack, usually after leaving the gym and stopping somewhere on the way home. No one takes a 2nd glance because an old dude in gym shorts and t-shirt has to put their wallet somewhere. Normal and expected context.

[MGW]

I continue to be amazed at how well a Glock 19 conceals OWB in a Raven Phantom with pancake wings. I'm not a big guy, 6' 185, and a light flannel shirt or plaid shirt makes this set up disappear. It feels like cheating and I feel slightly guilty about carrying that way for some reason. Maybe it's because I've spent so much money on strong side and appendix IWB holsters.

That being said, if I want to make 100% sure that I'm concealed appendix carry is the way to go for me.

I don't really see a reason to carry in a way that is "obvious". And I don't consider fanny packs obvious concealment.

[pr1042]

Went to Bass Pro for sales. No OC sighted. However, the weather was crappy.

Went to Bass Pro because my son likes to look at the fish.

The guy who held the door open for us was carrying. I asked my wife a few steps in if she noticed anything different about him. She of course saw nothing

I spend too much time on the internet that I knew he was carrying in a Gould and Goolrich belt slide w/ thumb break

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think I mentioned once the old fat guy (I can talk) wearing a very tight black t-shirt with GLOCK logs in huge letters and a Sneaky Pete holster. It was in a nice neighborhood supermarket.

In the same market, two days ago, there was a old guy wearing the NRA hat with the flag and eagle logo. I told him I had the same hat to share. Looking at him, I think there was a J frame in the pocket of his jeans, you could just see the top of the grip curve. But you had to look.

IMHO, Cabela's has better fish than Bass Pro. I like to look at them if I pass by. Better stuffed animals also. Gun prices - ha ha! A Glock in Bass Pro is $70 more than at Academy which is at the next exit over.

[okie john]

Open carry in the woods, conceal carry everywhere else.

This, except when I carry concealed in the woods due to the chance of running into left-wing idiot hikers/snowshoers. It's just a bad PR move.


Okie John

[Tamara]

I allowed myself to put an S&W logo on my car because to most people it looks like a fancy monogram of my initials. Decided against the Glock sticker, as "G L O C K" is none too subtle.

I don't have bumper stickers on the Zed Drei except the little "S-for-Sverige" oval. The Forester rat-mobile has stickers from various craft brewing companies, WFTDA 2013 championship, local indie record stores, and other assorted hippieflage. And a "BCM" sticker, because I figured it was cryptic enough.

I don't mind wearing a LaRue Tactical ball cap or having "Indy Arms Co" embroidered over the pocket of my gun burkha, because I rarely leave me unattended for people to break into. ;)

[Casual Friday]

This, except when I carry concealed in the woods due to the chance of running into left-wing idiot hikers/snowshoers. It's just a bad PR move.


Okie John

Oh trust me, living in western WA there's no shortage of the Subaru, rescue dog, wool socks with sandals, Coexist, Feel the Bern 2016, North Face bark eaters to run across in the woods. I really couldn't care less whether they approve or not of my sidearm.

[AlwaysLearning]

I spend a lot of time in areas with high proportions of hipster/fashionista types. Over the last year I've seen more and more of them rocking the neon 90's fanny packs, usually with a set of oversize glasses and highwaisted jeans.

http://thefashiontag.com/2015/09/15/the-fanny-pack-is-back/

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Talked to a Marine today about OC. He said that he was a Marine and didn't want to be the shoot me first guy. Preferred surprise.

[Irelander]

I've been having discussions with my buddies about how OC is not the greatest option for carrying a gun around town. They can't seem to get their head around the benefits of concealed carry especially after reading this...

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

I pretty much gave up and told them to chive on if that's what they want to do. :rolleyes:

[JodyH]

Yup... rock on with your OC self. Maybe I'll ambush the guy who ambushed you.

[ubervic]

I've been having discussions with my buddies about how OC is not the greatest option for carrying a gun around town. They can't seem to get their head around the benefits of concealed carry especially after reading this...

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

I pretty much gave up and told them to chive on if that's what they want to do. :rolleyes:

WOW

[olstyn]

I've been having discussions with my buddies about how OC is not the greatest option for carrying a gun around town. They can't seem to get their head around the benefits of concealed carry especially after reading this...

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

I pretty much gave up and told them to chive on if that's what they want to do. :rolleyes:

It's interesting how some of that guy's premise is demonstrably false. If these are the sort of folks that facts are persuasive to, you might show them this; it happened a little over a year ago:

http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-open-carrier-robbed-gunthe-first-time-carries-gunpoint/

Sure, that guy made a lot of poor choices, but the point is that OC did in fact make him a target.

[Chance]

You can also show them this (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17822-Cops-in-Venezuela-Murdered-for-Their-Guns), although they'll probably shrug it off because it's not how things work in 'Merica.

[Dagga Boy]

Fanny pack story: I used to own my own police equipment store. One day a guy who was on our shooting team and stellar dude comes in to buy a big black fanny pack. He had just come out of a deep undercover assignment where he spent years living as a bearded long haired dirt bag amongst meth people. He Mexican carried his department issue SIG that he purposely screwed up the finish on and had the grip wrapped in rubber bands. After coming out of dope he went back to clean cut all American clean shaved guy. White t-Shirt and jeans off duty cop look. I was puzzled on the fanny pack as we all "knew" they were target identifiers and should never use one. My buddy said when he worked undercover he found out that the big black fanny pack was a indicator to crooks that it was an off duty cop, he was carry a duty sized gun, and they were heavily avoided.
I decided to try it. I found nobody bummed changed from me. Dirtbags would no longer approach me for anything. I was left alone and avoided by people I did not want around me. I was sold.
I just went back to the fanny pack because of my truck seats. I carry a VP9, spare mag, soft cuffs, a spare sure fire light, a TQ and CPR Mask, my LE creds, and a large multi tool.......not bad for something I always have on, even running the kid to school in the AM with BB shorts on. So......works for me, and most folks have no clue about it. I am getting all the supposed "benefits" the OC folks espouse without scaring soccer mom's and kids.

[RoyGBiv]

^^^ Fanny Pack Club Member #002

My bad back gives Uncle Mike's two thumbs up.